- Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly
- podcast.
- This episode features
- Charlotte Dean,
- who is executive
- chair of The UK's
- Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council
- or EPSRC.
- In conversation with Physics World's Matin Durrani,
- Dean talks about her career in both academia
- and industry
- and about her leadership
- of the University of Oxford's
- Protein
- Informatics Group.
- Dean explains EPSRC's
- role in funding research in physics and other
- sciences in The UK.
- She talks about the long term strategy
- behind changes in funding priorities
- that were announced earlier this year.
- And she explains how EPSRC
- is supporting students.
- And she also highlights
- the importance of quantum technologies
- and artificial intelligence
- to the future of The UK.
- So I'm delighted to be joined today by
- Charlotte Dean, the executive chair of The UK's
- Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council,
- which is one of the main bodies that
- funds physics research in The UK. Welcome to
- the podcast, Charlotte.
- Hello.
- Now before we come on to what the
- council does, do you want to tell us
- a bit about your career to date? Because
- you started out as a chemist, didn't you?
- I did. I started out as a chemist,
- and it's kind of been a running joke
- that I must have done something very odd
- along the way to end up where I
- have ended up. But I think,
- to give you a starting point, I started
- out as an undergraduate chemist,
- and the phrase that my friends used was
- too clumsy to be a wet lab chemist.
- Very serious phrase. I am I'm not designed
- to work in a wet lab, so I
- very quickly made my way through everything in
- chemistry towards being allowed to play, it turned
- out, on computers as much as I possibly
- could.
- And I
- finished my undergraduate degree doing work which was
- effectively looking at how you model proteins on
- a computer.
- And I went on to study that for
- my PhD, writing software that now is so
- out of date. It makes me feel embarrassed
- because AlphaFold exists and AlphaFold two and AlphaFold
- three. But I did write software that predicts
- the structural proteins during my PhD.
- And
- after that,
- I went off to America for a while
- and continued in that vein of just doing
- that kind of computational research around sort of
- biological systems and interactions.
- And I came back
- and became an academic in department of statistics.
- So I'm an academic department of statistics in
- Oxford, and that's where I've been ever since.
- And I have a research group there. It's
- called the Oxford Proteanformatics
- Group.
- But whilst doing that job,
- and that is, as far as I'm concerned,
- and always will be my job, I have
- done a lot of other things alongside it
- and enjoyed them all. So I have
- helped run the division in Oxford. I've been
- a head of department in Oxford, those kind
- of things. But, also, I've been very fortunate.
- So I had the opportunity
- previously to come into UKRI, and I actually
- came in as deputy executive chair of the
- UPSRC.
- And if I say in 2019,
- everybody knows what I'm about to talk about
- next.
- I ended up actually instead of having the
- fun job, which I thought was coming in
- to do, which was write strategic things for,
- research and science across the EPS
- kind of areas, I ended up running UKRI's
- COVID nineteen response.
- I did also do some strategic work for
- UPSRC. And then
- I stopped doing that. And then for a
- couple of years, I worked,
- as the chief AI officer for a biotech
- company running a team of about a 100
- AI scientists.
- And then, obviously, that wasn't enough fun, so
- I stopped doing that, and I came in
- to being executive chair of the EPSRC. That's
- a very positive history of the travel across,
- but that's where I am now.
- So what did you enjoy most about your,
- you mean, you still do some research. What
- do you enjoy most about the research you
- do? Because,
- some people would say it is almost
- close to physics.
- Yeah. I think that would be fair. I
- think
- if you ask me to describe my research,
- I would say it's basically computational methods for
- drug discovery is the short version. I look
- at both what will be considered traditional drugs,
- kind of small molecules, but also
- large drug molecules, which would be things like
- antibodies or things like that. And we use
- a combination of methods to do this, physics
- based methods, where I would think of things
- that are like simulations or,
- sort of integrating physics equations to understand the
- physical properties of the outsides of a molecule
- alongside
- AI methods to predict exactly those same properties,
- the binding affinities of how a molecule goes
- in. And
- I have always loved doing research. Alright? I'm
- just gonna put that out there. From the
- moment I was allowed to start doing it
- when during my undergrad degree, I found it
- the most fascinating thing in the world to
- be allowed to think about things that we
- don't know the answer to. But,
- really, the best thing about getting to do
- research is the people I work with. I
- have an amazing research group. I absolutely love
- working with my students, with my post doc,
- with my collaborators.
- They're really smart, and it's incredible to get
- to play with those people and think about
- these problems.
- So how do you divide your time? Because,
- obviously, the fascination of research must be number
- one in your mind. So how do you
- find time to do that and your role
- as executive chair of what is a really
- big research council?
- So the the answer I have to give
- now, because now I'm going to become all
- kind of, this is the kind of answer
- as written on the piece of paper. So
- I am 80% seconded to my role as
- being executive chair of the Engineering Physical Science
- Research Council at the EPFRC, and I am
- 20% within Oxford.
- When recently somebody else was asked and I
- was standing there, they were like, well, you
- know, how much time does Charlotte spend doing
- this? The answer was about a 150%
- of her time running EPSRC and about a
- 100% of it running her research group.
- I guess it's that answer you give when
- you are lucky enough to get to do
- things you really enjoy.
- Yeah. There's a lot to do, but actually,
- it just all fits somewhere within that.
- So for those who don't know the EPSRC,
- so I said it's one of The UK's
- main research councils. So,
- what does the council do? How and how
- what are the main duties and functions that
- it has?
- So
- EPSRC is part of UK Research and Innovation.
- So UK Research and Innovation set out its
- mission as to advance knowledge, improve lives, and
- drive growth.
- So that's the the big overarching
- statement.
- EPSRC's
- role within that is to do that across
- the engineering and physical sciences. And I kind
- of hate what EPSRC is called because what
- it really should say is maths, physics, chemistry,
- computer science, materials.
- Yeah. I I'm gonna forget something really important,
- but that set of disciplines.
- And as EPSRC,
- we fund into higher education institutions
- primarily,
- but we also can fund into some institutes,
- things like that. As EPSRC, we don't fund
- into industry,
- and we are responsible
- for protecting the long term health of the
- research base.
- That doesn't mean
- that, you know, you have money to do
- everything you wanna do. It's about what will
- mean that in ten years' time, there is
- still a healthy research base there that is
- covering the topics and areas that are most
- important for the country as best as we
- can guess, and it is always a guess.
- And then next stage from that is turning
- that
- sort of excellence, and we really do have
- an excellent research base. It's one of the
- biggest reasons I took the job,
- into
- something that makes a difference for the country.
- Now you rip that large by saying, what
- is the government priorities of the day? So
- right now, we would talk about the industrial
- strategies, the modern industrial strategy.
- How do we power up to ensure that
- the investments we have made for years in
- quantum
- turn into something that actually turns into growth
- of The UK economy, changes the way that
- we work, and has a really big impact.
- And then alongside that, you're doing all of
- that in the context of government, universities,
- companies,
- academics, and all the other pressures that are
- there. But that's kind of what it's there
- for. And then it always becomes the lead
- for the things that are critical for the
- day. So as I mentioned, quantum or AI,
- all that kind of thing.
- So in terms of the overall budget,
- is there a figure you can say about
- how much you have to spend and how
- much does that go specifically
- into the physics community?
- It's this is one of those things where
- it always gets really hard because the everything
- is self defined even within our budgets. So
- I can give you some big numbers and
- then some other numbers to try and give
- some shape to all of this.
- Overall, in the spending review that's just happened,
- EPSRC
- was given a budget which was
- 2 no. Sorry. 3,200,000,000,
- something like that. Yep. Overall scope and size
- there. About 1,000,000,000 of that goes into talent.
- So EPSRC puts more money into studentships
- than anywhere else. That's not not than anywhere
- else. Across UKRI, we are the council that
- funds students.
- Yeah. We don't fund all the students, but
- we fund almost half of all the students
- that are funded by UKRI. So it's a
- big part of our budget and a really
- important thing to that.
- It's really hard to do a figure that's
- for
- physics
- because, of course, physics is in physics departments,
- but it is also in other places, lots
- of other places. And there is a lot
- of other funding that runs through into physics
- that might not be seen as core EPSRC
- portfolio. For example,
- the quantum portfolio or things coming out from
- the AI portfolio and that kind of thing.
- I can give you one example
- of where it does, you know, a way
- of doing the numbers for that part.
- If I look at the HESA data, and
- the last that I can look at is
- the 2425,
- EPSRC's
- funding to physics departments was about 109,000,000
- in that year.
- If I kinda look at that, that probably
- means it's of our funding we're putting into
- research as opposed to students, it's
- it must be something way somewhere between 15%,
- something like that, that kind of level. So
- that's it might be more than that, but
- it's hard to do a a really clear
- thing.
- One of the things I would say that's
- really quite I because I went I had
- to go look at HESO data because I'm
- doing this interview, so I had to find
- out what's going on,
- was that
- every single research council
- puts money into physics departments.
- So
- natural environment does, social sciences does, arts and
- humanities get research council. And I thought that
- was just really cool saying about how physics
- sits at the center of a lot of
- what we do.
- And those numbers are pretty big numbers. And
- I can imagine for you, Charlotte,
- you're seeing the overall picture of how much
- money is being spent. You've got the the
- big budgets in your forefront of your mind.
- For individual researchers, they're always gonna feel that
- there's not enough money. That must be a
- really difficult thing in the job for you
- to sort of you'd obviously like to turn
- the funding taps on full pelt. You can't.
- So, is that a difficult part of the
- job, basically, having to sort of ration
- the money that's made and making sure it's
- spent really well? I can for me, I
- can imagine that being a a big challenge
- of the job. I think it's a really
- huge challenge of the job, but I also
- think it's an always challenge of a job
- like this. It almost wouldn't matter how much
- money I had because as you turn the
- tap on more, more people become involved, more
- people step up, you see more, you know.
- And our success rates are way lower than
- I'd like them to be, full stop. You
- know? If if I I would love to
- have more money to fund more great science
- across The UK.
- I think the really the two parts of
- it that make it hard are sort of
- part one is that bit I was talking
- about at the beginning,
- continuously trying to think about how do you
- ensure that you have a healthy research base
- given you only have so much money. It
- means you can't fund everything. It means there
- are areas that will not have all that
- they want. And so you can't just say,
- well, I'll just spread it as thin as
- I can across everything because you won't have
- a healthy research base in the long term.
- But you also have to try and work
- out what the best way of doing it.
- And that is really hard, and that's not
- me working that out. That is huge amounts
- of advice that we have constantly feeding in.
- You know? I when I joined this role,
- there was lots of work we've done before.
- We continuously are talking to the communities about
- that. And then the other part that makes
- it hard is the same thing that made
- it hard when I'm sitting the other side
- of the fence. I mean, I apply for
- grants. A lot of the time, you don't
- get a grant when you apply for a
- grant, which means that most people when they
- meet me, the only interaction they have had
- with the organization I lead is not getting
- a grant.
- And that's, you know, not a great feeling.
- But I think that is a truly hard
- thing and one of the reasons why I
- think it's a good thing that academics step
- up and lead the research councils. Because,
- actually,
- it is true. It is horrible when you
- put all this effort in and then somebody
- goes, nah. You can't have the money. And
- that's gonna happen because it has to. So
- I think, yes, it is a really tough
- part of the job.
- So I guess you need a bit of
- a thick skin on that front.
- And as you said, EPSRC is part of,
- UK Research and Innovation,
- which is the sort of overall body for
- the research councils. Now as far as I
- understand, the budget is 39,000,000,000
- over the four years to 2030. Now there's
- been a bit of controversy recently because UKRI
- is going through what's termed
- a reprioritization
- with money going into sort of different buckets
- as it's called. Can you explain the thinking
- behind that
- and how you react to sort of people
- who say, oh, well, this is just a
- way of
- focusing away from basic research into applied science.
- It's something I've heard a few times. Yeah.
- And I would say I don't think that
- that's a fair characterization
- of what's happening, but I do understand why
- people feel that. Because whenever you change what
- the model looks like, everyone wants to have
- a look at it and try and understand
- what it means for them. And it doesn't
- matter where you sit, that's what you look
- for.
- When I look at the numbers, and, obviously,
- I was there as we were trying to
- write them, I worked out an for EPSRC,
- but it's true for all the research councils,
- what's really happened is we always had kind
- of what you would call
- we'll call it bucket one. It's my least
- famous terminology that's ever been invented. But the
- the kind of fundamental research part of this,
- the curiosity driven research, that was always there.
- We also always had strategic research. We always
- had programs that were very strategic, directed, trying
- to make things happen. All research councils did.
- The split that has happened, the difference that
- happened is those strategic programs, instead of being
- research council driven, so EPSRC going here are
- my strategic priorities with a sprinkling from what
- government is asking us for as we run
- through a particular SR or, you know, the
- demands come in and we're trying to reprioritize
- to match that, is we now have UKRI
- strategic programs.
- So
- what that means is we've sent a much
- clearer signal
- to the community of these are the areas
- we will be funding in over this SR.
- This is the strategic direction.
- This is it. Yep. Now what that means
- is, no. I don't think we've, if you
- like, done huge damage to the bucket one
- or move bucket one money over there. It's
- approximately the same split.
- What's changed
- is the way the strategic areas are picked
- and what we can do with them. So
- in that bucket two, which is basically that
- strategic research, you know, to try and improve
- lives and drive growth, which is linked to
- the bucket three money, which is obviously the
- money that goes into funding companies.
- We're trying to signal very strongly, here are
- a set of areas we're gonna work in.
- I'm gonna make that coherent programs across the
- research councils and with innovate.
- So I think, to me, that's the the
- difference is not who's getting the money in
- that sense of is it curiosity or is
- it strategic. I think that splits
- roughly the same as it was before. The
- difference now is this is your set of
- strategic programs.
- So if you want a real answer to
- that in a way, the people who might
- lose out are people who are doing strategic
- research that doesn't quite fit one of the
- new strategic areas, and they may have to
- think about how they fit within the model.
- I suppose the other question is people don't
- agree with street strategic directions, but I suppose
- that's another another story. Well, Can I just
- say a bit on that? Because I that's
- a really I it's an interesting question because
- I think it is fair for people not
- to agree that the strategic direction is set
- by government because we're a public body. So
- I think we have to at some point,
- if we, the academic community, believe that government
- doesn't really understand what the research base has
- to offer and what it should be, we,
- and that includes me, have to stand up
- and keep explaining to them what the directions
- are that would really make a difference. And
- so I would encourage people if that's the
- conversation. That conversation is not to say, we'll
- change this now UKRI. No. That's a conversation
- about research base talking properly as a coherent
- whole about what's really important for the strategic
- future and growth of The UK economy.
- Do you have much contact yourself with ministers
- and,
- government people?
- I have a lot of contact with government
- writ large. So with government officials, with chief
- scientist advisers,
- you know, all sorts of people involved in
- different parts of government, particularly with the,
- DCIT, so Department for Science, Innovation,
- and Technology. She's trying to get her letters
- out correctly.
- But also with other government departments who work
- in, you know, cognate areas to us. So
- department for energy security and net zero or
- the Ministry of Defense for me might be
- and department for transport. Those kinds of but
- I talk to lots of departments.
- Contact with ministers, not a huge amount with
- some, sometimes. So to do specific topics or
- areas.
- Okay.
- Now my colleagues at the Institute of Physics
- in London, they put us a call to
- the physics community, specifically,
- groups who were sub subject group committee chairs,
- of the IOP, if they've got any questions
- for you. So there's three questions that I'm
- gonna put to you that came from them.
- So one of them was the first of
- the three. The first one, Charlotte, is, along
- with the Science and Technology
- Facilities Council, STFC,
- for quite a while, the EPSRC ran a
- program called the Quantum Technologies for Fundamental Physics.
- And this was stopped last year with, apparently,
- with a loss of 50
- early career positions.
- So the question that I was asked to
- put to you is, do you support calls
- for those activities to be continued?
- And if so, when will such a call
- be implemented?
- So I think this is a a it's
- always that lovely standard question that we all
- have. If we have a funding mechanism that
- we really like, I have plenty that I
- have loved through my time. Yep. And then
- that mechanism stops.
- We always feel like that means that something
- really bad has happened, but almost all funding
- mechanisms are time limited.
- So this was funded by the strategic priorities
- program, and it was designed to build this
- interdisciplinary
- capability,
- but it was never set up to go
- on forever.
- Yep. And most funding opportunities aren't. You know?
- There's there's very few that go on forever
- because, actually, science moves. We change what we
- need, and people move into the new areas
- and move across.
- But that's not that this has lost its
- importance in terms of thinking about quantum technologies
- for fundamental physics. So EPSRC and FC STFC
- have put over a 100,000,000 into the new
- hubs that are sitting out there around this
- area. There's lots of new opportunities arising in
- this space. Now we have a trained set
- of people used to this interdisciplinary area. So
- what you're trying to do is create those
- cohorts and move them on to the next
- thing, not stay in that world. So support
- that cohort
- to other roles and other things.
- And I think
- it's always going to be true. You know?
- In the ideal world, like we you said
- earlier, you'd like the tap to be much
- bigger. We'd like to have loads more money.
- We'd like to run things for longer, but
- we don't. We have a funding pie which
- is
- n.
- And what we're trying to do is create
- an opportunity that drives the existence of things
- and then create the next things that those
- people can go on to. It will never
- be a perfect fit. Totally accept that. But
- I think that's the way,
- to think about each of those opportunities.
- Good. Well, thank you for answering that one.
- That's, interesting. And now the next question that
- came from the community was,
- the Science and Technology Facilities Council. Now they
- also run various central facilities like the Diamond
- Synchrotron, the ISIS, Moon, and Neutron Source, and
- The UK's membership of of CERN and other
- international organizations.
- I appreciate we're coming on to the different
- research council, not yours.
- And to save money within UKI, the focus
- has been keeping those facilities going
- and, obviously,
- at the expense slightly of grants to scientists
- funded by
- EPSRC
- who actually gonna use the facilities and by
- those in particle physics, nuclear physics, and astronomy
- funded by the STFC.
- So the question to you, Charlotte, was have
- you got a better model
- in mind for funding these facilities and and
- avoiding this word,
- the tension within the STFC's grants in particle
- physics, nuclear physics, and astronomy?
- This is quite a subtle question about how
- things get funded and how pies get Yeah.
- It's and it drawn up. Yeah. I think
- I would
- pull back slightly from the question, not trying
- to avoid it, but just try and explain
- the the shape.
- Because
- everyone would like to be avoided tensioned against
- anything else. I'd love it if EPSRC wasn't
- being tensioned against NERC, you know, national
- the Natural Environment Research Council. But it is
- because that research matters as does arts and
- humanities research as does yeah.
- So within UKRI,
- we will have the budget envelope. You talked
- about the SR settlement, 39,000,000,000.
- Sounds huge, but it's not that huge once
- you start thinking of all the things you
- want to fund. So there's no way to
- avoid tensioning.
- Okay?
- The question then just becomes,
- at what point is the tensioning felt and
- how does it get hit and who, you
- know, how does it play out? And that
- will always be the case.
- So
- I think for this, we have,
- within STFC,
- they are
- conducting their consultation process about what they are
- going to do about the fact that their
- cost base is just too high. It it
- cannot be sustained. We we cannot continue to
- afford
- the set of facilities we are currently running
- and keep adding to it. It's it's not
- possible within the budget envelope of UKRI.
- And most of that is coming from efficiencies
- within SDFC itself as it tries to work
- out how to do this. But they're trying
- to with they're doing that consultation with advisory
- bodies, with their science board, with the wider
- research community
- to try and work out how you put
- it on a sustainable footing.
- The but
- you could come up with other models. I
- know that has been raised by others. You
- could imagine a world where you moved
- the all of the grant funding part out
- of STFC into EPSRC, for example. So all
- physics grant funding was in one place. But
- then you are tensioned against other stuff when
- that happens, and there'll still be attentioning prior
- to that because we're all tensioned against the
- amount of money that goes into infrastructure. So
- there's no perfect answer here, I'm afraid.
- But I think it's a we have to
- work out a way to get forwards and
- keep everything under the cost profile that we
- actually have to live within.
- I mean, it has always been quite strange,
- the SDFC being a funding council that supports
- scientists and running central facilities.
- But anyway, the history of that is I
- don't let let's not go down that.
- I get told there's a lot of history
- and I just nod and agree, and it's
- not something where I I mean, I firmly
- don't have a a strong opinion. I mean,
- I really don't because I don't know the
- best way to divide things up. But that's
- the kind of tensioning, you know, and it's
- been raised. Patrick Valence has raised this possibility
- as has he. And then it's something for
- the community to think about. Would they rather
- that was the way the world was set?
- Question.
- I mean, back in the day, there was
- a separate research council that ran the central
- facilities, and that was merged with the, particle
- physics and astronomy research council, which kind of
- led us to the situation today. Anyway, let's
- not get stuck in the path past funding
- models.
- So the third question,
- slightly less contentious from the community was, what
- is your research council doing to help
- a level and undergraduate students get a taste
- of real research, for example, during summer internships?
- This person felt that
- that exposure to research is really invaluable, and
- the more we can get young people into
- getting a taste of research, the better.
- Yeah. And it it's always a slightly tricky
- area for research councils because, of course,
- our kind of funding
- remit kind of starts at the doctoral level
- is where I meant to start funding the
- humans. But we do actually do quite a
- lot of things around this.
- So
- we support,
- something called a vacation internship
- scheme. So it gives undergraduates
- it's undergraduates,
- hands on experience of live research projects.
- And this is actually administered because we give
- our doctoral training investments to the universities,
- and they're told to do this with part
- of that money, and they have to report
- back how they're using that to do this.
- Actually, for this summer, 2026,
- we're
- putting another 4,000,000
- into this to actually enable I think it's
- it's nearly 40 universities
- to offer around 500 additional internships
- Because
- I completely agree with the premise of the
- question. You know? How does somebody know if
- they want to do a doctorate if they've
- never experienced research or why it's so much
- fun? I mean, it's so cool. But I
- think that, to me, that's was been one
- of my priorities. I've spoken a lot about
- wanting to encourage people into thinking about doing
- research, about wanting to do doctorates, about being
- able to fund doctorates more and better across
- the EPS space because I think it's so
- important. So, yeah, we're putting another 4,000,000 in
- this year specifically for our 500 additional internships.
- Excellent. That sounds great.
- So before we go, Charlotte, a couple of
- questions from me. So first of all, what
- do you personally see as the most exciting
- growth areas in research?
- I mean, obviously, you're gonna say your own,
- obviously, but I mean I'm trying not to
- say my own. That's such a you know,
- it's it's it's one of those impossible questions,
- isn't it?
- Right now, I think the most exciting growth
- area in research, and I think it hits
- across the whole piece, is
- actually working out how you use
- AI
- to make your research work better, not as
- an add on, not as a interesting toy
- along the side, but the actual leapfrog it
- should make for you. That means you really
- do do 10 times less experiments. I find
- it and it's got different levels of adoption
- in different places. Different academics are picking up
- at different speeds or different disciplines. So for
- me, that's I'm finding that fascinating because I
- can see it across the piece.
- Trying to avoid talking about my own work
- here. I'm doing quite well so far.
- I think another area I personally find fascinating
- because I get to see a lot of
- it,
- as well, and it's an area I know
- little about is kind of the whole area
- of I I'm gonna say advanced materials, but,
- basically, I mean, materials writ large. So materials
- in there all their different uses. So you
- can think of materials for quantum, but also
- materials for, you know,
- superconducting, but materials that you might use in
- buildings. We're able to do so much with
- materials now that I we just couldn't and
- weren't thinking about before and the way we
- can interrogate them and investigate them. And then
- finally, I'm just obviously gonna say, we are
- right at the cusp of being able to
- computationally design drugs. So for me personally, that
- is absolutely awesome.
- That is exciting. Yeah.
- And so before we go, yeah, final question.
- So your message to physicists listening out there
- in this country and around the world, what's
- your message to the physics community?
- I suppose I'd go back to
- what I always think about.
- I hope that you will really enjoy doing
- what you do as much as I do.
- Like, getting to do research is a privilege.
- It is fascinating,
- and it is incredible.
- It is so important
- that we
- continue to be a world leading,
- like, country in physics, but that physics continues
- to be a really important discipline.
- It's there's no way you can overestimate
- the importance of all the areas it plugs
- into and how it works with everything else.
- You know? I don't do physics, but as
- rightly described right at the front of this
- podcast,
- I use a huge number of physics functions.
- I'm continuously learning from it, and I'm one
- tiny example of that. So
- please keep doing what you do. Keep enjoying
- it. And finally,
- actually keep talking to us as the funding
- body so that we understand as much as
- possible about what would help, what would make
- a difference, what's exciting, and what you need
- in the future.
- Well, that's a great message to end. Thank
- you, Charlotte. And thank you being so so
- open with your answers. I know it must
- be difficult in your position as sort of
- a lightning rod for the community. And I
- I I don't envy you, but you obviously
- I imagine you have quite a thick skin
- to do with,
- disgruntled researchers. Hopefully, there's some happy ones out
- there. But so thank you for your time,
- and,
- great continued great work. Thank you. Thank you
- very much.
- That was Charlotte Dean of EPSRC
- and the University of Oxford
- in conversation
- with Physics World's Mateen Durrani.
- Thanks to both of them for a fascinating
- discussion.
- I'm afraid that's all the time we have
- for this week's podcast.
- I'm Hamish Johnston, and our producer is Fred
- Iles.
- The music for Physics World's podcasts is called
- one three seven, and it was composed and
- performed by the physicist
- Philip Moriarty.
- We'll be back again next week.