WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.839 --> 00:00:10.880 - Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly 2 00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:11.380 - podcast. 3 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:13.299 - This episode features 4 00:00:13.599 --> 00:00:14.740 - Charlotte Dean, 5 00:00:15.154 --> 00:00:16.054 - who is executive 6 00:00:16.355 --> 00:00:17.815 - chair of The UK's 7 00:00:18.195 --> 00:00:21.654 - Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council 8 00:00:21.954 --> 00:00:22.934 - or EPSRC. 9 00:00:24.754 --> 00:00:27.814 - In conversation with Physics World's Matin Durrani, 10 00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:31.219 - Dean talks about her career in both academia 11 00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:32.579 - and industry 12 00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:34.739 - and about her leadership 13 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:37.059 - of the University of Oxford's 14 00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:38.020 - Protein 15 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:39.780 - Informatics Group. 16 00:00:40.559 --> 00:00:42.259 - Dean explains EPSRC's 17 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:46.935 - role in funding research in physics and other 18 00:00:46.935 --> 00:00:48.475 - sciences in The UK. 19 00:00:49.174 --> 00:00:51.674 - She talks about the long term strategy 20 00:00:52.215 --> 00:00:54.635 - behind changes in funding priorities 21 00:00:55.414 --> 00:00:57.835 - that were announced earlier this year. 22 00:00:58.289 --> 00:01:00.309 - And she explains how EPSRC 23 00:01:01.329 --> 00:01:02.789 - is supporting students. 24 00:01:03.809 --> 00:01:05.349 - And she also highlights 25 00:01:05.650 --> 00:01:08.069 - the importance of quantum technologies 26 00:01:08.530 --> 00:01:10.150 - and artificial intelligence 27 00:01:10.609 --> 00:01:12.629 - to the future of The UK. 28 00:01:20.444 --> 00:01:22.125 - So I'm delighted to be joined today by 29 00:01:22.125 --> 00:01:24.625 - Charlotte Dean, the executive chair of The UK's 30 00:01:24.685 --> 00:01:27.344 - Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council, 31 00:01:27.709 --> 00:01:29.229 - which is one of the main bodies that 32 00:01:29.229 --> 00:01:32.109 - funds physics research in The UK. Welcome to 33 00:01:32.109 --> 00:01:33.170 - the podcast, Charlotte. 34 00:01:34.349 --> 00:01:34.849 - Hello. 35 00:01:35.310 --> 00:01:36.670 - Now before we come on to what the 36 00:01:36.670 --> 00:01:38.430 - council does, do you want to tell us 37 00:01:38.430 --> 00:01:40.429 - a bit about your career to date? Because 38 00:01:40.429 --> 00:01:42.689 - you started out as a chemist, didn't you? 39 00:01:43.495 --> 00:01:45.255 - I did. I started out as a chemist, 40 00:01:45.255 --> 00:01:47.094 - and it's kind of been a running joke 41 00:01:47.094 --> 00:01:48.694 - that I must have done something very odd 42 00:01:48.694 --> 00:01:50.055 - along the way to end up where I 43 00:01:50.055 --> 00:01:51.995 - have ended up. But I think, 44 00:01:52.694 --> 00:01:54.135 - to give you a starting point, I started 45 00:01:54.135 --> 00:01:55.594 - out as an undergraduate chemist, 46 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:58.239 - and the phrase that my friends used was 47 00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:00.180 - too clumsy to be a wet lab chemist. 48 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:03.280 - Very serious phrase. I am I'm not designed 49 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:04.560 - to work in a wet lab, so I 50 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:07.120 - very quickly made my way through everything in 51 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:09.439 - chemistry towards being allowed to play, it turned 52 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:11.655 - out, on computers as much as I possibly 53 00:02:11.655 --> 00:02:12.155 - could. 54 00:02:12.615 --> 00:02:13.514 - And I 55 00:02:13.814 --> 00:02:16.455 - finished my undergraduate degree doing work which was 56 00:02:16.455 --> 00:02:19.415 - effectively looking at how you model proteins on 57 00:02:19.415 --> 00:02:19.995 - a computer. 58 00:02:21.175 --> 00:02:23.094 - And I went on to study that for 59 00:02:23.094 --> 00:02:25.759 - my PhD, writing software that now is so 60 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:27.360 - out of date. It makes me feel embarrassed 61 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:30.159 - because AlphaFold exists and AlphaFold two and AlphaFold 62 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:32.080 - three. But I did write software that predicts 63 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:33.860 - the structural proteins during my PhD. 64 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:34.979 - And 65 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:36.099 - after that, 66 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:39.325 - I went off to America for a while 67 00:02:39.325 --> 00:02:40.925 - and continued in that vein of just doing 68 00:02:40.925 --> 00:02:43.645 - that kind of computational research around sort of 69 00:02:43.645 --> 00:02:46.224 - biological systems and interactions. 70 00:02:47.405 --> 00:02:48.465 - And I came back 71 00:02:49.004 --> 00:02:51.025 - and became an academic in department of statistics. 72 00:02:51.090 --> 00:02:52.610 - So I'm an academic department of statistics in 73 00:02:52.610 --> 00:02:54.709 - Oxford, and that's where I've been ever since. 74 00:02:54.769 --> 00:02:56.209 - And I have a research group there. It's 75 00:02:56.209 --> 00:02:57.269 - called the Oxford Proteanformatics 76 00:02:57.729 --> 00:02:58.229 - Group. 77 00:02:58.530 --> 00:03:00.469 - But whilst doing that job, 78 00:03:01.090 --> 00:03:02.769 - and that is, as far as I'm concerned, 79 00:03:02.769 --> 00:03:04.794 - and always will be my job, I have 80 00:03:04.794 --> 00:03:06.474 - done a lot of other things alongside it 81 00:03:06.474 --> 00:03:08.254 - and enjoyed them all. So I have 82 00:03:08.635 --> 00:03:10.395 - helped run the division in Oxford. I've been 83 00:03:10.395 --> 00:03:12.074 - a head of department in Oxford, those kind 84 00:03:12.074 --> 00:03:14.474 - of things. But, also, I've been very fortunate. 85 00:03:14.474 --> 00:03:16.655 - So I had the opportunity 86 00:03:17.040 --> 00:03:19.520 - previously to come into UKRI, and I actually 87 00:03:19.520 --> 00:03:21.360 - came in as deputy executive chair of the 88 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:21.860 - UPSRC. 89 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:24.340 - And if I say in 2019, 90 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:26.639 - everybody knows what I'm about to talk about 91 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:27.139 - next. 92 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:30.000 - I ended up actually instead of having the 93 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:31.360 - fun job, which I thought was coming in 94 00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:33.594 - to do, which was write strategic things for, 95 00:03:34.215 --> 00:03:36.234 - research and science across the EPS 96 00:03:36.534 --> 00:03:38.634 - kind of areas, I ended up running UKRI's 97 00:03:38.694 --> 00:03:39.754 - COVID nineteen response. 98 00:03:40.215 --> 00:03:42.375 - I did also do some strategic work for 99 00:03:42.375 --> 00:03:43.754 - UPSRC. And then 100 00:03:44.375 --> 00:03:45.894 - I stopped doing that. And then for a 101 00:03:45.894 --> 00:03:47.219 - couple of years, I worked, 102 00:03:47.939 --> 00:03:50.099 - as the chief AI officer for a biotech 103 00:03:50.099 --> 00:03:51.780 - company running a team of about a 100 104 00:03:51.780 --> 00:03:52.520 - AI scientists. 105 00:03:52.900 --> 00:03:54.659 - And then, obviously, that wasn't enough fun, so 106 00:03:54.659 --> 00:03:56.020 - I stopped doing that, and I came in 107 00:03:56.020 --> 00:03:58.340 - to being executive chair of the EPSRC. That's 108 00:03:58.340 --> 00:04:01.055 - a very positive history of the travel across, 109 00:04:01.114 --> 00:04:02.735 - but that's where I am now. 110 00:04:03.594 --> 00:04:05.275 - So what did you enjoy most about your, 111 00:04:05.594 --> 00:04:07.114 - you mean, you still do some research. What 112 00:04:07.114 --> 00:04:08.715 - do you enjoy most about the research you 113 00:04:08.715 --> 00:04:09.354 - do? Because, 114 00:04:10.155 --> 00:04:11.694 - some people would say it is almost 115 00:04:12.155 --> 00:04:13.134 - close to physics. 116 00:04:13.889 --> 00:04:15.569 - Yeah. I think that would be fair. I 117 00:04:15.569 --> 00:04:16.069 - think 118 00:04:17.009 --> 00:04:19.250 - if you ask me to describe my research, 119 00:04:19.250 --> 00:04:21.569 - I would say it's basically computational methods for 120 00:04:21.569 --> 00:04:24.129 - drug discovery is the short version. I look 121 00:04:24.129 --> 00:04:26.610 - at both what will be considered traditional drugs, 122 00:04:26.610 --> 00:04:28.389 - kind of small molecules, but also 123 00:04:28.724 --> 00:04:31.044 - large drug molecules, which would be things like 124 00:04:31.044 --> 00:04:33.204 - antibodies or things like that. And we use 125 00:04:33.204 --> 00:04:35.365 - a combination of methods to do this, physics 126 00:04:35.365 --> 00:04:37.365 - based methods, where I would think of things 127 00:04:37.365 --> 00:04:39.224 - that are like simulations or, 128 00:04:40.579 --> 00:04:42.819 - sort of integrating physics equations to understand the 129 00:04:42.819 --> 00:04:45.240 - physical properties of the outsides of a molecule 130 00:04:45.300 --> 00:04:45.800 - alongside 131 00:04:46.100 --> 00:04:48.660 - AI methods to predict exactly those same properties, 132 00:04:48.660 --> 00:04:50.660 - the binding affinities of how a molecule goes 133 00:04:50.660 --> 00:04:51.639 - in. And 134 00:04:52.579 --> 00:04:54.855 - I have always loved doing research. Alright? I'm 135 00:04:54.855 --> 00:04:57.014 - just gonna put that out there. From the 136 00:04:57.014 --> 00:04:58.935 - moment I was allowed to start doing it 137 00:04:58.935 --> 00:05:01.254 - when during my undergrad degree, I found it 138 00:05:01.254 --> 00:05:02.774 - the most fascinating thing in the world to 139 00:05:02.774 --> 00:05:04.935 - be allowed to think about things that we 140 00:05:04.935 --> 00:05:06.750 - don't know the answer to. But, 141 00:05:07.310 --> 00:05:09.709 - really, the best thing about getting to do 142 00:05:09.709 --> 00:05:11.069 - research is the people I work with. I 143 00:05:11.069 --> 00:05:13.949 - have an amazing research group. I absolutely love 144 00:05:13.949 --> 00:05:15.709 - working with my students, with my post doc, 145 00:05:15.709 --> 00:05:16.610 - with my collaborators. 146 00:05:17.389 --> 00:05:19.310 - They're really smart, and it's incredible to get 147 00:05:19.310 --> 00:05:20.910 - to play with those people and think about 148 00:05:20.910 --> 00:05:21.569 - these problems. 149 00:05:22.144 --> 00:05:23.584 - So how do you divide your time? Because, 150 00:05:23.584 --> 00:05:26.064 - obviously, the fascination of research must be number 151 00:05:26.064 --> 00:05:27.584 - one in your mind. So how do you 152 00:05:27.584 --> 00:05:29.264 - find time to do that and your role 153 00:05:29.264 --> 00:05:31.185 - as executive chair of what is a really 154 00:05:31.185 --> 00:05:32.245 - big research council? 155 00:05:32.785 --> 00:05:34.625 - So the the answer I have to give 156 00:05:34.625 --> 00:05:36.384 - now, because now I'm going to become all 157 00:05:36.384 --> 00:05:38.329 - kind of, this is the kind of answer 158 00:05:38.329 --> 00:05:40.410 - as written on the piece of paper. So 159 00:05:40.410 --> 00:05:42.649 - I am 80% seconded to my role as 160 00:05:42.649 --> 00:05:44.649 - being executive chair of the Engineering Physical Science 161 00:05:44.649 --> 00:05:46.649 - Research Council at the EPFRC, and I am 162 00:05:46.649 --> 00:05:48.189 - 20% within Oxford. 163 00:05:48.649 --> 00:05:50.889 - When recently somebody else was asked and I 164 00:05:50.889 --> 00:05:52.250 - was standing there, they were like, well, you 165 00:05:52.250 --> 00:05:53.795 - know, how much time does Charlotte spend doing 166 00:05:53.795 --> 00:05:56.915 - this? The answer was about a 150% 167 00:05:56.915 --> 00:05:58.754 - of her time running EPSRC and about a 168 00:05:58.754 --> 00:06:00.935 - 100% of it running her research group. 169 00:06:01.475 --> 00:06:03.475 - I guess it's that answer you give when 170 00:06:03.475 --> 00:06:04.834 - you are lucky enough to get to do 171 00:06:04.834 --> 00:06:06.055 - things you really enjoy. 172 00:06:06.589 --> 00:06:08.829 - Yeah. There's a lot to do, but actually, 173 00:06:08.829 --> 00:06:11.009 - it just all fits somewhere within that. 174 00:06:12.029 --> 00:06:13.889 - So for those who don't know the EPSRC, 175 00:06:14.029 --> 00:06:15.470 - so I said it's one of The UK's 176 00:06:15.470 --> 00:06:17.149 - main research councils. So, 177 00:06:17.870 --> 00:06:20.269 - what does the council do? How and how 178 00:06:20.785 --> 00:06:22.865 - what are the main duties and functions that 179 00:06:22.865 --> 00:06:23.524 - it has? 180 00:06:23.985 --> 00:06:24.485 - So 181 00:06:25.345 --> 00:06:28.144 - EPSRC is part of UK Research and Innovation. 182 00:06:28.144 --> 00:06:30.384 - So UK Research and Innovation set out its 183 00:06:30.384 --> 00:06:34.064 - mission as to advance knowledge, improve lives, and 184 00:06:34.064 --> 00:06:34.884 - drive growth. 185 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:36.939 - So that's the the big overarching 186 00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:38.300 - statement. 187 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:39.180 - EPSRC's 188 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:42.779 - role within that is to do that across 189 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:45.480 - the engineering and physical sciences. And I kind 190 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:48.154 - of hate what EPSRC is called because what 191 00:06:48.154 --> 00:06:50.414 - it really should say is maths, physics, chemistry, 192 00:06:50.555 --> 00:06:52.334 - computer science, materials. 193 00:06:52.954 --> 00:06:55.035 - Yeah. I I'm gonna forget something really important, 194 00:06:55.035 --> 00:06:57.134 - but that set of disciplines. 195 00:06:57.834 --> 00:06:59.055 - And as EPSRC, 196 00:06:59.675 --> 00:07:02.574 - we fund into higher education institutions 197 00:07:02.875 --> 00:07:03.375 - primarily, 198 00:07:03.829 --> 00:07:05.910 - but we also can fund into some institutes, 199 00:07:05.910 --> 00:07:08.310 - things like that. As EPSRC, we don't fund 200 00:07:08.310 --> 00:07:09.129 - into industry, 201 00:07:09.829 --> 00:07:11.449 - and we are responsible 202 00:07:12.069 --> 00:07:14.629 - for protecting the long term health of the 203 00:07:14.629 --> 00:07:15.610 - research base. 204 00:07:15.910 --> 00:07:17.050 - That doesn't mean 205 00:07:17.670 --> 00:07:19.625 - that, you know, you have money to do 206 00:07:19.625 --> 00:07:21.625 - everything you wanna do. It's about what will 207 00:07:21.625 --> 00:07:23.785 - mean that in ten years' time, there is 208 00:07:23.785 --> 00:07:26.264 - still a healthy research base there that is 209 00:07:26.264 --> 00:07:28.025 - covering the topics and areas that are most 210 00:07:28.025 --> 00:07:29.705 - important for the country as best as we 211 00:07:29.705 --> 00:07:31.805 - can guess, and it is always a guess. 212 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:34.860 - And then next stage from that is turning 213 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:35.420 - that 214 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:37.800 - sort of excellence, and we really do have 215 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:39.480 - an excellent research base. It's one of the 216 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:40.939 - biggest reasons I took the job, 217 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:41.819 - into 218 00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:44.220 - something that makes a difference for the country. 219 00:07:44.754 --> 00:07:47.074 - Now you rip that large by saying, what 220 00:07:47.074 --> 00:07:48.835 - is the government priorities of the day? So 221 00:07:48.835 --> 00:07:50.675 - right now, we would talk about the industrial 222 00:07:50.675 --> 00:07:52.455 - strategies, the modern industrial strategy. 223 00:07:52.835 --> 00:07:54.595 - How do we power up to ensure that 224 00:07:54.595 --> 00:07:57.074 - the investments we have made for years in 225 00:07:57.074 --> 00:07:57.574 - quantum 226 00:07:57.889 --> 00:08:00.050 - turn into something that actually turns into growth 227 00:08:00.050 --> 00:08:02.050 - of The UK economy, changes the way that 228 00:08:02.050 --> 00:08:03.910 - we work, and has a really big impact. 229 00:08:05.089 --> 00:08:07.410 - And then alongside that, you're doing all of 230 00:08:07.410 --> 00:08:09.990 - that in the context of government, universities, 231 00:08:10.290 --> 00:08:10.790 - companies, 232 00:08:11.504 --> 00:08:13.185 - academics, and all the other pressures that are 233 00:08:13.185 --> 00:08:15.525 - there. But that's kind of what it's there 234 00:08:15.745 --> 00:08:18.225 - for. And then it always becomes the lead 235 00:08:18.225 --> 00:08:19.665 - for the things that are critical for the 236 00:08:19.665 --> 00:08:21.824 - day. So as I mentioned, quantum or AI, 237 00:08:21.824 --> 00:08:22.884 - all that kind of thing. 238 00:08:23.824 --> 00:08:25.764 - So in terms of the overall budget, 239 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:27.759 - is there a figure you can say about 240 00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:29.360 - how much you have to spend and how 241 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:30.819 - much does that go specifically 242 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:33.059 - into the physics community? 243 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:35.200 - It's this is one of those things where 244 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:37.440 - it always gets really hard because the everything 245 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:40.080 - is self defined even within our budgets. So 246 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:41.214 - I can give you some big numbers and 247 00:08:41.214 --> 00:08:42.814 - then some other numbers to try and give 248 00:08:42.814 --> 00:08:44.434 - some shape to all of this. 249 00:08:45.375 --> 00:08:48.674 - Overall, in the spending review that's just happened, 250 00:08:49.375 --> 00:08:49.875 - EPSRC 251 00:08:50.414 --> 00:08:52.355 - was given a budget which was 252 00:08:53.410 --> 00:08:57.410 - 2 no. Sorry. 3,200,000,000, 253 00:08:57.410 --> 00:09:00.290 - something like that. Yep. Overall scope and size 254 00:09:00.290 --> 00:09:03.730 - there. About 1,000,000,000 of that goes into talent. 255 00:09:03.730 --> 00:09:06.070 - So EPSRC puts more money into studentships 256 00:09:06.414 --> 00:09:09.075 - than anywhere else. That's not not than anywhere 257 00:09:09.455 --> 00:09:11.855 - else. Across UKRI, we are the council that 258 00:09:11.855 --> 00:09:12.754 - funds students. 259 00:09:13.215 --> 00:09:15.054 - Yeah. We don't fund all the students, but 260 00:09:15.054 --> 00:09:16.735 - we fund almost half of all the students 261 00:09:16.735 --> 00:09:18.575 - that are funded by UKRI. So it's a 262 00:09:18.575 --> 00:09:20.014 - big part of our budget and a really 263 00:09:20.014 --> 00:09:21.120 - important thing to that. 264 00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:23.360 - It's really hard to do a figure that's 265 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:23.860 - for 266 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:24.820 - physics 267 00:09:25.279 --> 00:09:27.600 - because, of course, physics is in physics departments, 268 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:29.120 - but it is also in other places, lots 269 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:30.639 - of other places. And there is a lot 270 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:32.639 - of other funding that runs through into physics 271 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:34.580 - that might not be seen as core EPSRC 272 00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:36.019 - portfolio. For example, 273 00:09:36.434 --> 00:09:38.434 - the quantum portfolio or things coming out from 274 00:09:38.434 --> 00:09:40.375 - the AI portfolio and that kind of thing. 275 00:09:40.595 --> 00:09:42.294 - I can give you one example 276 00:09:42.914 --> 00:09:44.595 - of where it does, you know, a way 277 00:09:44.595 --> 00:09:46.294 - of doing the numbers for that part. 278 00:09:47.075 --> 00:09:48.674 - If I look at the HESA data, and 279 00:09:48.674 --> 00:09:49.875 - the last that I can look at is 280 00:09:49.875 --> 00:09:51.330 - the 2425, 281 00:09:51.809 --> 00:09:52.309 - EPSRC's 282 00:09:52.769 --> 00:09:55.570 - funding to physics departments was about 109,000,000 283 00:09:55.570 --> 00:09:56.389 - in that year. 284 00:09:56.769 --> 00:09:58.870 - If I kinda look at that, that probably 285 00:09:59.090 --> 00:10:02.129 - means it's of our funding we're putting into 286 00:10:02.129 --> 00:10:03.970 - research as opposed to students, it's 287 00:10:04.985 --> 00:10:08.745 - it must be something way somewhere between 15%, 288 00:10:08.745 --> 00:10:10.745 - something like that, that kind of level. So 289 00:10:10.745 --> 00:10:12.585 - that's it might be more than that, but 290 00:10:12.585 --> 00:10:14.425 - it's hard to do a a really clear 291 00:10:14.425 --> 00:10:14.925 - thing. 292 00:10:15.384 --> 00:10:16.665 - One of the things I would say that's 293 00:10:16.665 --> 00:10:18.299 - really quite I because I went I had 294 00:10:18.299 --> 00:10:19.540 - to go look at HESO data because I'm 295 00:10:19.540 --> 00:10:20.740 - doing this interview, so I had to find 296 00:10:20.740 --> 00:10:21.639 - out what's going on, 297 00:10:22.259 --> 00:10:23.080 - was that 298 00:10:23.460 --> 00:10:25.240 - every single research council 299 00:10:25.540 --> 00:10:27.160 - puts money into physics departments. 300 00:10:27.620 --> 00:10:28.120 - So 301 00:10:28.899 --> 00:10:31.404 - natural environment does, social sciences does, arts and 302 00:10:31.404 --> 00:10:33.084 - humanities get research council. And I thought that 303 00:10:33.084 --> 00:10:35.164 - was just really cool saying about how physics 304 00:10:35.164 --> 00:10:36.684 - sits at the center of a lot of 305 00:10:36.684 --> 00:10:37.424 - what we do. 306 00:10:39.084 --> 00:10:40.764 - And those numbers are pretty big numbers. And 307 00:10:40.764 --> 00:10:42.464 - I can imagine for you, Charlotte, 308 00:10:42.809 --> 00:10:45.210 - you're seeing the overall picture of how much 309 00:10:45.210 --> 00:10:46.649 - money is being spent. You've got the the 310 00:10:46.649 --> 00:10:49.149 - big budgets in your forefront of your mind. 311 00:10:49.289 --> 00:10:51.529 - For individual researchers, they're always gonna feel that 312 00:10:51.529 --> 00:10:53.450 - there's not enough money. That must be a 313 00:10:53.450 --> 00:10:55.289 - really difficult thing in the job for you 314 00:10:55.289 --> 00:10:57.545 - to sort of you'd obviously like to turn 315 00:10:57.545 --> 00:11:00.345 - the funding taps on full pelt. You can't. 316 00:11:00.345 --> 00:11:02.585 - So, is that a difficult part of the 317 00:11:02.585 --> 00:11:04.684 - job, basically, having to sort of ration 318 00:11:04.985 --> 00:11:06.665 - the money that's made and making sure it's 319 00:11:06.665 --> 00:11:08.184 - spent really well? I can for me, I 320 00:11:08.184 --> 00:11:10.585 - can imagine that being a a big challenge 321 00:11:10.585 --> 00:11:12.610 - of the job. I think it's a really 322 00:11:12.610 --> 00:11:14.129 - huge challenge of the job, but I also 323 00:11:14.129 --> 00:11:16.289 - think it's an always challenge of a job 324 00:11:16.289 --> 00:11:18.690 - like this. It almost wouldn't matter how much 325 00:11:18.690 --> 00:11:20.450 - money I had because as you turn the 326 00:11:20.450 --> 00:11:22.529 - tap on more, more people become involved, more 327 00:11:22.529 --> 00:11:24.415 - people step up, you see more, you know. 328 00:11:24.415 --> 00:11:26.495 - And our success rates are way lower than 329 00:11:26.495 --> 00:11:28.254 - I'd like them to be, full stop. You 330 00:11:28.254 --> 00:11:30.495 - know? If if I I would love to 331 00:11:30.495 --> 00:11:32.575 - have more money to fund more great science 332 00:11:32.575 --> 00:11:33.554 - across The UK. 333 00:11:33.855 --> 00:11:36.575 - I think the really the two parts of 334 00:11:36.575 --> 00:11:39.100 - it that make it hard are sort of 335 00:11:39.100 --> 00:11:40.540 - part one is that bit I was talking 336 00:11:40.540 --> 00:11:41.360 - about at the beginning, 337 00:11:41.740 --> 00:11:43.980 - continuously trying to think about how do you 338 00:11:43.980 --> 00:11:45.980 - ensure that you have a healthy research base 339 00:11:45.980 --> 00:11:47.980 - given you only have so much money. It 340 00:11:47.980 --> 00:11:49.660 - means you can't fund everything. It means there 341 00:11:49.660 --> 00:11:51.980 - are areas that will not have all that 342 00:11:51.980 --> 00:11:54.654 - they want. And so you can't just say, 343 00:11:54.654 --> 00:11:55.774 - well, I'll just spread it as thin as 344 00:11:55.774 --> 00:11:57.695 - I can across everything because you won't have 345 00:11:57.695 --> 00:11:59.554 - a healthy research base in the long term. 346 00:11:59.934 --> 00:12:01.294 - But you also have to try and work 347 00:12:01.294 --> 00:12:02.414 - out what the best way of doing it. 348 00:12:02.414 --> 00:12:03.855 - And that is really hard, and that's not 349 00:12:03.855 --> 00:12:05.615 - me working that out. That is huge amounts 350 00:12:05.615 --> 00:12:08.039 - of advice that we have constantly feeding in. 351 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:10.360 - You know? I when I joined this role, 352 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:12.120 - there was lots of work we've done before. 353 00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:14.360 - We continuously are talking to the communities about 354 00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:16.039 - that. And then the other part that makes 355 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:17.159 - it hard is the same thing that made 356 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:18.279 - it hard when I'm sitting the other side 357 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:19.480 - of the fence. I mean, I apply for 358 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:21.079 - grants. A lot of the time, you don't 359 00:12:21.079 --> 00:12:22.529 - get a grant when you apply for a 360 00:12:22.529 --> 00:12:24.625 - grant, which means that most people when they 361 00:12:24.625 --> 00:12:26.304 - meet me, the only interaction they have had 362 00:12:26.304 --> 00:12:28.464 - with the organization I lead is not getting 363 00:12:28.464 --> 00:12:29.125 - a grant. 364 00:12:29.504 --> 00:12:31.424 - And that's, you know, not a great feeling. 365 00:12:31.424 --> 00:12:33.264 - But I think that is a truly hard 366 00:12:33.264 --> 00:12:35.024 - thing and one of the reasons why I 367 00:12:35.024 --> 00:12:37.264 - think it's a good thing that academics step 368 00:12:37.264 --> 00:12:39.360 - up and lead the research councils. Because, 369 00:12:39.899 --> 00:12:40.399 - actually, 370 00:12:40.779 --> 00:12:42.940 - it is true. It is horrible when you 371 00:12:42.940 --> 00:12:44.460 - put all this effort in and then somebody 372 00:12:44.460 --> 00:12:46.379 - goes, nah. You can't have the money. And 373 00:12:46.379 --> 00:12:48.299 - that's gonna happen because it has to. So 374 00:12:48.299 --> 00:12:49.899 - I think, yes, it is a really tough 375 00:12:49.899 --> 00:12:50.639 - part of the job. 376 00:12:51.340 --> 00:12:52.779 - So I guess you need a bit of 377 00:12:52.779 --> 00:12:54.399 - a thick skin on that front. 378 00:12:54.914 --> 00:12:57.075 - And as you said, EPSRC is part of, 379 00:12:57.394 --> 00:12:58.774 - UK Research and Innovation, 380 00:12:59.394 --> 00:13:00.914 - which is the sort of overall body for 381 00:13:00.914 --> 00:13:02.595 - the research councils. Now as far as I 382 00:13:02.595 --> 00:13:05.075 - understand, the budget is 39,000,000,000 383 00:13:05.075 --> 00:13:07.394 - over the four years to 2030. Now there's 384 00:13:07.394 --> 00:13:10.139 - been a bit of controversy recently because UKRI 385 00:13:10.139 --> 00:13:11.519 - is going through what's termed 386 00:13:12.139 --> 00:13:12.720 - a reprioritization 387 00:13:13.100 --> 00:13:15.740 - with money going into sort of different buckets 388 00:13:15.740 --> 00:13:17.899 - as it's called. Can you explain the thinking 389 00:13:17.899 --> 00:13:18.959 - behind that 390 00:13:19.579 --> 00:13:21.179 - and how you react to sort of people 391 00:13:21.179 --> 00:13:22.539 - who say, oh, well, this is just a 392 00:13:22.539 --> 00:13:23.279 - way of 393 00:13:24.115 --> 00:13:26.754 - focusing away from basic research into applied science. 394 00:13:26.754 --> 00:13:29.394 - It's something I've heard a few times. Yeah. 395 00:13:29.394 --> 00:13:31.074 - And I would say I don't think that 396 00:13:31.074 --> 00:13:32.534 - that's a fair characterization 397 00:13:32.914 --> 00:13:34.754 - of what's happening, but I do understand why 398 00:13:34.754 --> 00:13:36.595 - people feel that. Because whenever you change what 399 00:13:36.595 --> 00:13:38.570 - the model looks like, everyone wants to have 400 00:13:38.570 --> 00:13:39.850 - a look at it and try and understand 401 00:13:39.850 --> 00:13:41.610 - what it means for them. And it doesn't 402 00:13:41.610 --> 00:13:42.970 - matter where you sit, that's what you look 403 00:13:42.970 --> 00:13:43.470 - for. 404 00:13:45.290 --> 00:13:47.129 - When I look at the numbers, and, obviously, 405 00:13:47.129 --> 00:13:48.410 - I was there as we were trying to 406 00:13:48.410 --> 00:13:50.590 - write them, I worked out an for EPSRC, 407 00:13:50.809 --> 00:13:52.410 - but it's true for all the research councils, 408 00:13:52.410 --> 00:13:55.024 - what's really happened is we always had kind 409 00:13:55.024 --> 00:13:56.245 - of what you would call 410 00:13:57.024 --> 00:13:58.625 - we'll call it bucket one. It's my least 411 00:13:58.625 --> 00:14:01.985 - famous terminology that's ever been invented. But the 412 00:14:01.985 --> 00:14:04.544 - the kind of fundamental research part of this, 413 00:14:04.544 --> 00:14:06.769 - the curiosity driven research, that was always there. 414 00:14:06.909 --> 00:14:09.870 - We also always had strategic research. We always 415 00:14:09.870 --> 00:14:12.350 - had programs that were very strategic, directed, trying 416 00:14:12.350 --> 00:14:14.610 - to make things happen. All research councils did. 417 00:14:15.070 --> 00:14:16.669 - The split that has happened, the difference that 418 00:14:16.669 --> 00:14:19.264 - happened is those strategic programs, instead of being 419 00:14:19.325 --> 00:14:21.884 - research council driven, so EPSRC going here are 420 00:14:21.884 --> 00:14:24.605 - my strategic priorities with a sprinkling from what 421 00:14:24.605 --> 00:14:26.684 - government is asking us for as we run 422 00:14:26.684 --> 00:14:28.845 - through a particular SR or, you know, the 423 00:14:28.845 --> 00:14:30.865 - demands come in and we're trying to reprioritize 424 00:14:31.085 --> 00:14:33.870 - to match that, is we now have UKRI 425 00:14:34.090 --> 00:14:35.149 - strategic programs. 426 00:14:35.690 --> 00:14:36.190 - So 427 00:14:36.570 --> 00:14:38.669 - what that means is we've sent a much 428 00:14:38.809 --> 00:14:40.110 - clearer signal 429 00:14:40.730 --> 00:14:43.129 - to the community of these are the areas 430 00:14:43.129 --> 00:14:46.110 - we will be funding in over this SR. 431 00:14:46.295 --> 00:14:47.915 - This is the strategic direction. 432 00:14:48.455 --> 00:14:50.875 - This is it. Yep. Now what that means 433 00:14:51.014 --> 00:14:53.975 - is, no. I don't think we've, if you 434 00:14:53.975 --> 00:14:56.695 - like, done huge damage to the bucket one 435 00:14:56.695 --> 00:14:58.500 - or move bucket one money over there. It's 436 00:14:58.659 --> 00:14:59.960 - approximately the same split. 437 00:15:00.419 --> 00:15:01.320 - What's changed 438 00:15:02.100 --> 00:15:04.259 - is the way the strategic areas are picked 439 00:15:04.259 --> 00:15:06.019 - and what we can do with them. So 440 00:15:06.019 --> 00:15:08.899 - in that bucket two, which is basically that 441 00:15:08.899 --> 00:15:11.379 - strategic research, you know, to try and improve 442 00:15:11.379 --> 00:15:12.835 - lives and drive growth, which is linked to 443 00:15:12.835 --> 00:15:14.595 - the bucket three money, which is obviously the 444 00:15:14.595 --> 00:15:16.134 - money that goes into funding companies. 445 00:15:16.754 --> 00:15:18.754 - We're trying to signal very strongly, here are 446 00:15:18.754 --> 00:15:20.434 - a set of areas we're gonna work in. 447 00:15:20.434 --> 00:15:22.835 - I'm gonna make that coherent programs across the 448 00:15:22.835 --> 00:15:24.450 - research councils and with innovate. 449 00:15:24.929 --> 00:15:27.090 - So I think, to me, that's the the 450 00:15:27.090 --> 00:15:29.889 - difference is not who's getting the money in 451 00:15:29.889 --> 00:15:31.889 - that sense of is it curiosity or is 452 00:15:31.889 --> 00:15:33.669 - it strategic. I think that splits 453 00:15:33.970 --> 00:15:36.049 - roughly the same as it was before. The 454 00:15:36.049 --> 00:15:38.370 - difference now is this is your set of 455 00:15:38.370 --> 00:15:39.429 - strategic programs. 456 00:15:39.970 --> 00:15:42.184 - So if you want a real answer to 457 00:15:42.184 --> 00:15:43.865 - that in a way, the people who might 458 00:15:43.865 --> 00:15:45.625 - lose out are people who are doing strategic 459 00:15:45.625 --> 00:15:47.784 - research that doesn't quite fit one of the 460 00:15:47.784 --> 00:15:50.184 - new strategic areas, and they may have to 461 00:15:50.184 --> 00:15:52.440 - think about how they fit within the model. 462 00:15:53.320 --> 00:15:54.840 - I suppose the other question is people don't 463 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:57.000 - agree with street strategic directions, but I suppose 464 00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:59.960 - that's another another story. Well, Can I just 465 00:15:59.960 --> 00:16:01.159 - say a bit on that? Because I that's 466 00:16:01.159 --> 00:16:03.639 - a really I it's an interesting question because 467 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:05.240 - I think it is fair for people not 468 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:07.304 - to agree that the strategic direction is set 469 00:16:07.304 --> 00:16:09.184 - by government because we're a public body. So 470 00:16:09.184 --> 00:16:11.245 - I think we have to at some point, 471 00:16:11.625 --> 00:16:14.664 - if we, the academic community, believe that government 472 00:16:14.664 --> 00:16:16.584 - doesn't really understand what the research base has 473 00:16:16.584 --> 00:16:18.424 - to offer and what it should be, we, 474 00:16:18.424 --> 00:16:20.290 - and that includes me, have to stand up 475 00:16:20.290 --> 00:16:22.210 - and keep explaining to them what the directions 476 00:16:22.210 --> 00:16:23.490 - are that would really make a difference. And 477 00:16:23.490 --> 00:16:25.410 - so I would encourage people if that's the 478 00:16:25.410 --> 00:16:27.809 - conversation. That conversation is not to say, we'll 479 00:16:27.809 --> 00:16:30.370 - change this now UKRI. No. That's a conversation 480 00:16:30.370 --> 00:16:33.730 - about research base talking properly as a coherent 481 00:16:33.730 --> 00:16:36.065 - whole about what's really important for the strategic 482 00:16:36.065 --> 00:16:37.605 - future and growth of The UK economy. 483 00:16:38.144 --> 00:16:40.884 - Do you have much contact yourself with ministers 484 00:16:40.945 --> 00:16:41.184 - and, 485 00:16:42.144 --> 00:16:42.965 - government people? 486 00:16:43.745 --> 00:16:46.065 - I have a lot of contact with government 487 00:16:46.065 --> 00:16:49.105 - writ large. So with government officials, with chief 488 00:16:49.105 --> 00:16:50.085 - scientist advisers, 489 00:16:50.940 --> 00:16:52.460 - you know, all sorts of people involved in 490 00:16:52.460 --> 00:16:55.279 - different parts of government, particularly with the, 491 00:16:56.059 --> 00:16:58.720 - DCIT, so Department for Science, Innovation, 492 00:16:59.100 --> 00:17:01.259 - and Technology. She's trying to get her letters 493 00:17:01.259 --> 00:17:01.920 - out correctly. 494 00:17:02.700 --> 00:17:04.940 - But also with other government departments who work 495 00:17:04.940 --> 00:17:07.865 - in, you know, cognate areas to us. So 496 00:17:07.865 --> 00:17:10.684 - department for energy security and net zero or 497 00:17:10.825 --> 00:17:12.744 - the Ministry of Defense for me might be 498 00:17:12.744 --> 00:17:15.144 - and department for transport. Those kinds of but 499 00:17:15.144 --> 00:17:16.365 - I talk to lots of departments. 500 00:17:17.899 --> 00:17:20.539 - Contact with ministers, not a huge amount with 501 00:17:20.539 --> 00:17:24.220 - some, sometimes. So to do specific topics or 502 00:17:24.220 --> 00:17:24.720 - areas. 503 00:17:25.659 --> 00:17:26.159 - Okay. 504 00:17:27.579 --> 00:17:29.259 - Now my colleagues at the Institute of Physics 505 00:17:29.259 --> 00:17:30.940 - in London, they put us a call to 506 00:17:30.940 --> 00:17:32.720 - the physics community, specifically, 507 00:17:33.875 --> 00:17:36.535 - groups who were sub subject group committee chairs, 508 00:17:36.914 --> 00:17:38.755 - of the IOP, if they've got any questions 509 00:17:38.755 --> 00:17:40.195 - for you. So there's three questions that I'm 510 00:17:40.195 --> 00:17:42.535 - gonna put to you that came from them. 511 00:17:43.555 --> 00:17:45.154 - So one of them was the first of 512 00:17:45.154 --> 00:17:47.315 - the three. The first one, Charlotte, is, along 513 00:17:47.315 --> 00:17:48.535 - with the Science and Technology 514 00:17:49.029 --> 00:17:50.170 - Facilities Council, STFC, 515 00:17:51.349 --> 00:17:53.109 - for quite a while, the EPSRC ran a 516 00:17:53.109 --> 00:17:56.490 - program called the Quantum Technologies for Fundamental Physics. 517 00:17:57.990 --> 00:18:00.390 - And this was stopped last year with, apparently, 518 00:18:00.390 --> 00:18:01.529 - with a loss of 50 519 00:18:01.910 --> 00:18:03.049 - early career positions. 520 00:18:04.085 --> 00:18:05.684 - So the question that I was asked to 521 00:18:05.684 --> 00:18:07.605 - put to you is, do you support calls 522 00:18:07.605 --> 00:18:09.625 - for those activities to be continued? 523 00:18:10.644 --> 00:18:12.404 - And if so, when will such a call 524 00:18:12.404 --> 00:18:13.144 - be implemented? 525 00:18:14.244 --> 00:18:17.009 - So I think this is a a it's 526 00:18:17.170 --> 00:18:19.250 - always that lovely standard question that we all 527 00:18:19.250 --> 00:18:20.849 - have. If we have a funding mechanism that 528 00:18:20.849 --> 00:18:22.690 - we really like, I have plenty that I 529 00:18:22.690 --> 00:18:24.930 - have loved through my time. Yep. And then 530 00:18:24.930 --> 00:18:26.150 - that mechanism stops. 531 00:18:26.529 --> 00:18:28.529 - We always feel like that means that something 532 00:18:28.529 --> 00:18:31.250 - really bad has happened, but almost all funding 533 00:18:31.250 --> 00:18:33.275 - mechanisms are time limited. 534 00:18:33.575 --> 00:18:36.475 - So this was funded by the strategic priorities 535 00:18:36.615 --> 00:18:38.775 - program, and it was designed to build this 536 00:18:38.775 --> 00:18:39.275 - interdisciplinary 537 00:18:39.734 --> 00:18:40.234 - capability, 538 00:18:40.775 --> 00:18:42.775 - but it was never set up to go 539 00:18:42.775 --> 00:18:43.434 - on forever. 540 00:18:44.055 --> 00:18:46.855 - Yep. And most funding opportunities aren't. You know? 541 00:18:46.855 --> 00:18:48.960 - There's there's very few that go on forever 542 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:51.359 - because, actually, science moves. We change what we 543 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:53.440 - need, and people move into the new areas 544 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:54.340 - and move across. 545 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:58.400 - But that's not that this has lost its 546 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:01.440 - importance in terms of thinking about quantum technologies 547 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:05.065 - for fundamental physics. So EPSRC and FC STFC 548 00:19:05.684 --> 00:19:07.684 - have put over a 100,000,000 into the new 549 00:19:07.684 --> 00:19:10.085 - hubs that are sitting out there around this 550 00:19:10.085 --> 00:19:13.044 - area. There's lots of new opportunities arising in 551 00:19:13.044 --> 00:19:15.204 - this space. Now we have a trained set 552 00:19:15.204 --> 00:19:17.529 - of people used to this interdisciplinary area. So 553 00:19:17.529 --> 00:19:19.849 - what you're trying to do is create those 554 00:19:19.849 --> 00:19:21.609 - cohorts and move them on to the next 555 00:19:21.609 --> 00:19:24.650 - thing, not stay in that world. So support 556 00:19:24.650 --> 00:19:25.390 - that cohort 557 00:19:26.569 --> 00:19:28.430 - to other roles and other things. 558 00:19:29.529 --> 00:19:30.795 - And I think 559 00:19:31.515 --> 00:19:33.855 - it's always going to be true. You know? 560 00:19:34.394 --> 00:19:36.555 - In the ideal world, like we you said 561 00:19:36.555 --> 00:19:37.914 - earlier, you'd like the tap to be much 562 00:19:37.914 --> 00:19:39.275 - bigger. We'd like to have loads more money. 563 00:19:39.275 --> 00:19:40.715 - We'd like to run things for longer, but 564 00:19:40.715 --> 00:19:42.234 - we don't. We have a funding pie which 565 00:19:42.234 --> 00:19:42.734 - is 566 00:19:43.035 --> 00:19:43.535 - n. 567 00:19:43.950 --> 00:19:45.710 - And what we're trying to do is create 568 00:19:45.710 --> 00:19:48.190 - an opportunity that drives the existence of things 569 00:19:48.190 --> 00:19:49.710 - and then create the next things that those 570 00:19:49.710 --> 00:19:51.069 - people can go on to. It will never 571 00:19:51.069 --> 00:19:53.390 - be a perfect fit. Totally accept that. But 572 00:19:53.390 --> 00:19:54.769 - I think that's the way, 573 00:19:55.230 --> 00:19:56.929 - to think about each of those opportunities. 574 00:19:58.065 --> 00:19:59.664 - Good. Well, thank you for answering that one. 575 00:19:59.664 --> 00:20:02.065 - That's, interesting. And now the next question that 576 00:20:02.065 --> 00:20:03.265 - came from the community was, 577 00:20:03.984 --> 00:20:06.384 - the Science and Technology Facilities Council. Now they 578 00:20:06.384 --> 00:20:09.025 - also run various central facilities like the Diamond 579 00:20:09.025 --> 00:20:11.744 - Synchrotron, the ISIS, Moon, and Neutron Source, and 580 00:20:11.744 --> 00:20:14.210 - The UK's membership of of CERN and other 581 00:20:14.210 --> 00:20:15.190 - international organizations. 582 00:20:15.490 --> 00:20:17.250 - I appreciate we're coming on to the different 583 00:20:17.250 --> 00:20:18.710 - research council, not yours. 584 00:20:20.289 --> 00:20:22.869 - And to save money within UKI, the focus 585 00:20:22.930 --> 00:20:25.509 - has been keeping those facilities going 586 00:20:26.465 --> 00:20:27.045 - and, obviously, 587 00:20:27.505 --> 00:20:29.664 - at the expense slightly of grants to scientists 588 00:20:29.664 --> 00:20:30.484 - funded by 589 00:20:30.785 --> 00:20:31.285 - EPSRC 590 00:20:31.664 --> 00:20:33.825 - who actually gonna use the facilities and by 591 00:20:33.825 --> 00:20:36.325 - those in particle physics, nuclear physics, and astronomy 592 00:20:36.705 --> 00:20:37.845 - funded by the STFC. 593 00:20:38.549 --> 00:20:40.309 - So the question to you, Charlotte, was have 594 00:20:40.309 --> 00:20:41.529 - you got a better model 595 00:20:42.309 --> 00:20:44.789 - in mind for funding these facilities and and 596 00:20:44.789 --> 00:20:46.009 - avoiding this word, 597 00:20:46.470 --> 00:20:50.070 - the tension within the STFC's grants in particle 598 00:20:50.070 --> 00:20:52.009 - physics, nuclear physics, and astronomy? 599 00:20:52.555 --> 00:20:54.555 - This is quite a subtle question about how 600 00:20:54.555 --> 00:20:56.474 - things get funded and how pies get Yeah. 601 00:20:56.474 --> 00:20:59.455 - It's and it drawn up. Yeah. I think 602 00:20:59.515 --> 00:21:00.174 - I would 603 00:21:01.035 --> 00:21:03.674 - pull back slightly from the question, not trying 604 00:21:03.674 --> 00:21:05.195 - to avoid it, but just try and explain 605 00:21:05.195 --> 00:21:06.095 - the the shape. 606 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:06.900 - Because 607 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:10.240 - everyone would like to be avoided tensioned against 608 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:12.799 - anything else. I'd love it if EPSRC wasn't 609 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:15.440 - being tensioned against NERC, you know, national 610 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:18.240 - the Natural Environment Research Council. But it is 611 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:20.795 - because that research matters as does arts and 612 00:21:20.795 --> 00:21:22.734 - humanities research as does yeah. 613 00:21:23.035 --> 00:21:24.174 - So within UKRI, 614 00:21:24.555 --> 00:21:26.315 - we will have the budget envelope. You talked 615 00:21:26.315 --> 00:21:28.315 - about the SR settlement, 39,000,000,000. 616 00:21:28.315 --> 00:21:30.555 - Sounds huge, but it's not that huge once 617 00:21:30.555 --> 00:21:31.835 - you start thinking of all the things you 618 00:21:31.835 --> 00:21:33.659 - want to fund. So there's no way to 619 00:21:33.659 --> 00:21:34.480 - avoid tensioning. 620 00:21:34.940 --> 00:21:35.440 - Okay? 621 00:21:35.899 --> 00:21:37.839 - The question then just becomes, 622 00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:40.299 - at what point is the tensioning felt and 623 00:21:40.299 --> 00:21:42.059 - how does it get hit and who, you 624 00:21:42.059 --> 00:21:44.700 - know, how does it play out? And that 625 00:21:44.700 --> 00:21:46.079 - will always be the case. 626 00:21:46.380 --> 00:21:46.880 - So 627 00:21:47.654 --> 00:21:49.755 - I think for this, we have, 628 00:21:51.174 --> 00:21:51.994 - within STFC, 629 00:21:52.695 --> 00:21:53.355 - they are 630 00:21:53.815 --> 00:21:56.455 - conducting their consultation process about what they are 631 00:21:56.455 --> 00:21:57.735 - going to do about the fact that their 632 00:21:57.735 --> 00:22:00.110 - cost base is just too high. It it 633 00:22:00.110 --> 00:22:03.150 - cannot be sustained. We we cannot continue to 634 00:22:03.150 --> 00:22:03.650 - afford 635 00:22:04.029 --> 00:22:06.190 - the set of facilities we are currently running 636 00:22:06.190 --> 00:22:08.029 - and keep adding to it. It's it's not 637 00:22:08.029 --> 00:22:10.690 - possible within the budget envelope of UKRI. 638 00:22:11.230 --> 00:22:13.804 - And most of that is coming from efficiencies 639 00:22:14.024 --> 00:22:16.424 - within SDFC itself as it tries to work 640 00:22:16.424 --> 00:22:18.505 - out how to do this. But they're trying 641 00:22:18.505 --> 00:22:21.144 - to with they're doing that consultation with advisory 642 00:22:21.144 --> 00:22:23.304 - bodies, with their science board, with the wider 643 00:22:23.304 --> 00:22:24.204 - research community 644 00:22:24.505 --> 00:22:25.784 - to try and work out how you put 645 00:22:25.784 --> 00:22:27.085 - it on a sustainable footing. 646 00:22:27.704 --> 00:22:28.444 - The but 647 00:22:29.619 --> 00:22:31.700 - you could come up with other models. I 648 00:22:31.700 --> 00:22:33.539 - know that has been raised by others. You 649 00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:35.960 - could imagine a world where you moved 650 00:22:36.420 --> 00:22:38.579 - the all of the grant funding part out 651 00:22:38.579 --> 00:22:41.460 - of STFC into EPSRC, for example. So all 652 00:22:41.460 --> 00:22:43.315 - physics grant funding was in one place. But 653 00:22:43.315 --> 00:22:45.394 - then you are tensioned against other stuff when 654 00:22:45.394 --> 00:22:47.474 - that happens, and there'll still be attentioning prior 655 00:22:47.474 --> 00:22:48.994 - to that because we're all tensioned against the 656 00:22:48.994 --> 00:22:50.994 - amount of money that goes into infrastructure. So 657 00:22:50.994 --> 00:22:52.855 - there's no perfect answer here, I'm afraid. 658 00:22:53.715 --> 00:22:55.555 - But I think it's a we have to 659 00:22:55.555 --> 00:22:57.154 - work out a way to get forwards and 660 00:22:57.154 --> 00:22:59.509 - keep everything under the cost profile that we 661 00:22:59.509 --> 00:23:00.570 - actually have to live within. 662 00:23:01.190 --> 00:23:02.630 - I mean, it has always been quite strange, 663 00:23:02.630 --> 00:23:05.349 - the SDFC being a funding council that supports 664 00:23:05.349 --> 00:23:07.609 - scientists and running central facilities. 665 00:23:08.630 --> 00:23:10.230 - But anyway, the history of that is I 666 00:23:10.230 --> 00:23:11.930 - don't let let's not go down that. 667 00:23:12.274 --> 00:23:13.474 - I get told there's a lot of history 668 00:23:13.474 --> 00:23:14.835 - and I just nod and agree, and it's 669 00:23:14.835 --> 00:23:17.154 - not something where I I mean, I firmly 670 00:23:17.154 --> 00:23:18.994 - don't have a a strong opinion. I mean, 671 00:23:18.994 --> 00:23:20.595 - I really don't because I don't know the 672 00:23:20.595 --> 00:23:22.835 - best way to divide things up. But that's 673 00:23:22.835 --> 00:23:24.274 - the kind of tensioning, you know, and it's 674 00:23:24.274 --> 00:23:26.355 - been raised. Patrick Valence has raised this possibility 675 00:23:26.355 --> 00:23:27.569 - as has he. And then it's something for 676 00:23:27.569 --> 00:23:29.569 - the community to think about. Would they rather 677 00:23:29.569 --> 00:23:31.190 - that was the way the world was set? 678 00:23:31.890 --> 00:23:32.390 - Question. 679 00:23:33.329 --> 00:23:34.529 - I mean, back in the day, there was 680 00:23:34.529 --> 00:23:36.450 - a separate research council that ran the central 681 00:23:36.450 --> 00:23:39.009 - facilities, and that was merged with the, particle 682 00:23:39.009 --> 00:23:41.169 - physics and astronomy research council, which kind of 683 00:23:41.169 --> 00:23:43.765 - led us to the situation today. Anyway, let's 684 00:23:43.765 --> 00:23:45.924 - not get stuck in the path past funding 685 00:23:45.924 --> 00:23:46.424 - models. 686 00:23:46.884 --> 00:23:47.945 - So the third question, 687 00:23:48.805 --> 00:23:51.765 - slightly less contentious from the community was, what 688 00:23:51.765 --> 00:23:54.105 - is your research council doing to help 689 00:23:54.484 --> 00:23:56.730 - a level and undergraduate students get a taste 690 00:23:56.730 --> 00:23:59.470 - of real research, for example, during summer internships? 691 00:23:59.609 --> 00:24:00.830 - This person felt that 692 00:24:01.369 --> 00:24:04.250 - that exposure to research is really invaluable, and 693 00:24:04.250 --> 00:24:06.430 - the more we can get young people into 694 00:24:06.730 --> 00:24:08.509 - getting a taste of research, the better. 695 00:24:08.815 --> 00:24:10.894 - Yeah. And it it's always a slightly tricky 696 00:24:10.894 --> 00:24:13.634 - area for research councils because, of course, 697 00:24:14.015 --> 00:24:15.075 - our kind of funding 698 00:24:15.775 --> 00:24:17.934 - remit kind of starts at the doctoral level 699 00:24:17.934 --> 00:24:19.535 - is where I meant to start funding the 700 00:24:19.535 --> 00:24:21.455 - humans. But we do actually do quite a 701 00:24:21.455 --> 00:24:22.914 - lot of things around this. 702 00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:23.779 - So 703 00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:25.380 - we support, 704 00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:27.940 - something called a vacation internship 705 00:24:28.320 --> 00:24:30.019 - scheme. So it gives undergraduates 706 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:31.299 - it's undergraduates, 707 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:34.820 - hands on experience of live research projects. 708 00:24:35.734 --> 00:24:38.934 - And this is actually administered because we give 709 00:24:38.934 --> 00:24:41.275 - our doctoral training investments to the universities, 710 00:24:42.375 --> 00:24:44.215 - and they're told to do this with part 711 00:24:44.215 --> 00:24:45.575 - of that money, and they have to report 712 00:24:45.575 --> 00:24:47.355 - back how they're using that to do this. 713 00:24:47.690 --> 00:24:49.950 - Actually, for this summer, 2026, 714 00:24:50.089 --> 00:24:50.589 - we're 715 00:24:50.890 --> 00:24:52.429 - putting another 4,000,000 716 00:24:53.210 --> 00:24:56.349 - into this to actually enable I think it's 717 00:24:56.809 --> 00:24:58.269 - it's nearly 40 universities 718 00:24:58.809 --> 00:25:01.390 - to offer around 500 additional internships 719 00:25:02.214 --> 00:25:02.714 - Because 720 00:25:03.494 --> 00:25:05.734 - I completely agree with the premise of the 721 00:25:05.734 --> 00:25:08.454 - question. You know? How does somebody know if 722 00:25:08.454 --> 00:25:09.974 - they want to do a doctorate if they've 723 00:25:09.974 --> 00:25:12.054 - never experienced research or why it's so much 724 00:25:12.054 --> 00:25:14.019 - fun? I mean, it's so cool. But I 725 00:25:14.019 --> 00:25:15.940 - think that, to me, that's was been one 726 00:25:15.940 --> 00:25:18.099 - of my priorities. I've spoken a lot about 727 00:25:18.099 --> 00:25:20.660 - wanting to encourage people into thinking about doing 728 00:25:20.660 --> 00:25:22.579 - research, about wanting to do doctorates, about being 729 00:25:22.579 --> 00:25:25.140 - able to fund doctorates more and better across 730 00:25:25.140 --> 00:25:26.660 - the EPS space because I think it's so 731 00:25:26.660 --> 00:25:29.265 - important. So, yeah, we're putting another 4,000,000 in 732 00:25:29.404 --> 00:25:32.705 - this year specifically for our 500 additional internships. 733 00:25:34.205 --> 00:25:35.644 - Excellent. That sounds great. 734 00:25:35.965 --> 00:25:37.725 - So before we go, Charlotte, a couple of 735 00:25:37.725 --> 00:25:40.860 - questions from me. So first of all, what 736 00:25:40.860 --> 00:25:43.180 - do you personally see as the most exciting 737 00:25:43.180 --> 00:25:44.960 - growth areas in research? 738 00:25:46.700 --> 00:25:48.539 - I mean, obviously, you're gonna say your own, 739 00:25:48.539 --> 00:25:50.299 - obviously, but I mean I'm trying not to 740 00:25:50.299 --> 00:25:51.740 - say my own. That's such a you know, 741 00:25:51.740 --> 00:25:53.900 - it's it's it's one of those impossible questions, 742 00:25:53.900 --> 00:25:54.585 - isn't it? 743 00:25:56.024 --> 00:25:58.904 - Right now, I think the most exciting growth 744 00:25:58.904 --> 00:26:01.304 - area in research, and I think it hits 745 00:26:01.304 --> 00:26:03.404 - across the whole piece, is 746 00:26:04.345 --> 00:26:06.524 - actually working out how you use 747 00:26:07.065 --> 00:26:07.565 - AI 748 00:26:08.184 --> 00:26:10.960 - to make your research work better, not as 749 00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:13.200 - an add on, not as a interesting toy 750 00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:15.759 - along the side, but the actual leapfrog it 751 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:17.440 - should make for you. That means you really 752 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:19.519 - do do 10 times less experiments. I find 753 00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:22.400 - it and it's got different levels of adoption 754 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:24.559 - in different places. Different academics are picking up 755 00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:26.805 - at different speeds or different disciplines. So for 756 00:26:26.805 --> 00:26:28.724 - me, that's I'm finding that fascinating because I 757 00:26:28.724 --> 00:26:30.345 - can see it across the piece. 758 00:26:30.964 --> 00:26:32.404 - Trying to avoid talking about my own work 759 00:26:32.404 --> 00:26:33.945 - here. I'm doing quite well so far. 760 00:26:34.724 --> 00:26:38.164 - I think another area I personally find fascinating 761 00:26:38.164 --> 00:26:39.605 - because I get to see a lot of 762 00:26:39.605 --> 00:26:40.105 - it, 763 00:26:40.700 --> 00:26:41.980 - as well, and it's an area I know 764 00:26:41.980 --> 00:26:44.140 - little about is kind of the whole area 765 00:26:44.140 --> 00:26:46.299 - of I I'm gonna say advanced materials, but, 766 00:26:46.299 --> 00:26:48.940 - basically, I mean, materials writ large. So materials 767 00:26:48.940 --> 00:26:51.019 - in there all their different uses. So you 768 00:26:51.019 --> 00:26:53.339 - can think of materials for quantum, but also 769 00:26:53.339 --> 00:26:54.884 - materials for, you know, 770 00:26:55.684 --> 00:26:57.924 - superconducting, but materials that you might use in 771 00:26:57.924 --> 00:27:00.005 - buildings. We're able to do so much with 772 00:27:00.005 --> 00:27:02.404 - materials now that I we just couldn't and 773 00:27:02.404 --> 00:27:03.924 - weren't thinking about before and the way we 774 00:27:03.924 --> 00:27:05.924 - can interrogate them and investigate them. And then 775 00:27:05.924 --> 00:27:08.369 - finally, I'm just obviously gonna say, we are 776 00:27:08.369 --> 00:27:10.049 - right at the cusp of being able to 777 00:27:10.049 --> 00:27:12.529 - computationally design drugs. So for me personally, that 778 00:27:12.529 --> 00:27:14.150 - is absolutely awesome. 779 00:27:15.410 --> 00:27:16.950 - That is exciting. Yeah. 780 00:27:17.650 --> 00:27:20.130 - And so before we go, yeah, final question. 781 00:27:20.130 --> 00:27:22.835 - So your message to physicists listening out there 782 00:27:22.835 --> 00:27:24.355 - in this country and around the world, what's 783 00:27:24.355 --> 00:27:26.214 - your message to the physics community? 784 00:27:28.274 --> 00:27:30.534 - I suppose I'd go back to 785 00:27:31.154 --> 00:27:32.934 - what I always think about. 786 00:27:33.474 --> 00:27:35.890 - I hope that you will really enjoy doing 787 00:27:35.890 --> 00:27:37.650 - what you do as much as I do. 788 00:27:37.650 --> 00:27:39.650 - Like, getting to do research is a privilege. 789 00:27:39.650 --> 00:27:40.630 - It is fascinating, 790 00:27:40.930 --> 00:27:41.910 - and it is incredible. 791 00:27:42.610 --> 00:27:43.910 - It is so important 792 00:27:44.210 --> 00:27:45.029 - that we 793 00:27:45.330 --> 00:27:47.590 - continue to be a world leading, 794 00:27:47.934 --> 00:27:50.174 - like, country in physics, but that physics continues 795 00:27:50.174 --> 00:27:51.955 - to be a really important discipline. 796 00:27:52.575 --> 00:27:54.994 - It's there's no way you can overestimate 797 00:27:55.295 --> 00:27:57.295 - the importance of all the areas it plugs 798 00:27:57.295 --> 00:27:59.375 - into and how it works with everything else. 799 00:27:59.375 --> 00:28:01.539 - You know? I don't do physics, but as 800 00:28:01.539 --> 00:28:03.220 - rightly described right at the front of this 801 00:28:03.220 --> 00:28:03.720 - podcast, 802 00:28:04.019 --> 00:28:05.940 - I use a huge number of physics functions. 803 00:28:05.940 --> 00:28:08.339 - I'm continuously learning from it, and I'm one 804 00:28:08.339 --> 00:28:10.759 - tiny example of that. So 805 00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:14.420 - please keep doing what you do. Keep enjoying 806 00:28:14.420 --> 00:28:15.705 - it. And finally, 807 00:28:16.244 --> 00:28:18.325 - actually keep talking to us as the funding 808 00:28:18.325 --> 00:28:20.244 - body so that we understand as much as 809 00:28:20.244 --> 00:28:22.244 - possible about what would help, what would make 810 00:28:22.244 --> 00:28:24.085 - a difference, what's exciting, and what you need 811 00:28:24.085 --> 00:28:24.904 - in the future. 812 00:28:25.605 --> 00:28:27.125 - Well, that's a great message to end. Thank 813 00:28:27.125 --> 00:28:28.725 - you, Charlotte. And thank you being so so 814 00:28:28.725 --> 00:28:30.440 - open with your answers. I know it must 815 00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:31.960 - be difficult in your position as sort of 816 00:28:31.960 --> 00:28:34.059 - a lightning rod for the community. And I 817 00:28:34.200 --> 00:28:35.880 - I I don't envy you, but you obviously 818 00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:37.720 - I imagine you have quite a thick skin 819 00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:38.279 - to do with, 820 00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:41.160 - disgruntled researchers. Hopefully, there's some happy ones out 821 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:43.080 - there. But so thank you for your time, 822 00:28:43.080 --> 00:28:43.559 - and, 823 00:28:44.599 --> 00:28:47.174 - great continued great work. Thank you. Thank you 824 00:28:47.174 --> 00:28:47.914 - very much. 825 00:28:56.775 --> 00:28:59.434 - That was Charlotte Dean of EPSRC 826 00:29:00.619 --> 00:29:02.480 - and the University of Oxford 827 00:29:02.859 --> 00:29:03.759 - in conversation 828 00:29:04.059 --> 00:29:06.080 - with Physics World's Mateen Durrani. 829 00:29:06.619 --> 00:29:08.720 - Thanks to both of them for a fascinating 830 00:29:08.940 --> 00:29:09.440 - discussion. 831 00:29:10.220 --> 00:29:12.380 - I'm afraid that's all the time we have 832 00:29:12.380 --> 00:29:13.600 - for this week's podcast. 833 00:29:14.044 --> 00:29:17.325 - I'm Hamish Johnston, and our producer is Fred 834 00:29:17.325 --> 00:29:17.825 - Iles. 835 00:29:18.284 --> 00:29:21.884 - The music for Physics World's podcasts is called 836 00:29:21.884 --> 00:29:24.924 - one three seven, and it was composed and 837 00:29:24.924 --> 00:29:26.625 - performed by the physicist 838 00:29:27.164 --> 00:29:27.984 - Philip Moriarty. 839 00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:30.660 - We'll be back again next week.