1 00:00:07,759 --> 00:00:10,559 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly 2 00:00:10,559 --> 00:00:11,059 podcast. 3 00:00:11,359 --> 00:00:12,580 I'm Hamish Johnston. 4 00:00:13,254 --> 00:00:16,614 Nuclear fusion powers the sun, and scientists and 5 00:00:16,614 --> 00:00:19,654 engineers have long been trying to harness the 6 00:00:19,654 --> 00:00:22,074 process to generate clean energy. 7 00:00:22,774 --> 00:00:25,434 While much progress has been made, the commercially 8 00:00:25,574 --> 00:00:28,314 viable generation of fusion energy 9 00:00:28,679 --> 00:00:29,420 remains elusive. 10 00:00:30,359 --> 00:00:33,399 One important challenge is developing a range of 11 00:00:33,399 --> 00:00:34,619 specialized materials 12 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,219 that can contain an extremely hot radiation 13 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:39,659 emitting plasma 14 00:00:40,039 --> 00:00:41,179 in close proximity 15 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:43,260 to ultra cold superconducting 16 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:44,140 magnets. 17 00:00:44,975 --> 00:00:47,454 Our guest this week is Jacob John of 18 00:00:47,454 --> 00:00:49,954 The UK's Atomic Energy Authority. 19 00:00:50,495 --> 00:00:53,315 He studies how radiation damages materials. 20 00:00:53,695 --> 00:00:56,755 And in conversation with Physics World's Mateen Durrani, 21 00:00:57,109 --> 00:00:59,369 he talks about the near oxymoronic 22 00:00:59,989 --> 00:01:01,210 materials requirements 23 00:01:01,670 --> 00:01:02,969 for fusion reactors 24 00:01:03,429 --> 00:01:05,049 and how they can be met. 25 00:01:13,674 --> 00:01:16,254 Hello, Jacob. Welcome to the Physics World podcast. 26 00:01:17,034 --> 00:01:19,515 Pleasure to meet you, Matin. I am really 27 00:01:19,515 --> 00:01:21,275 happy to be speaking with you. Alright. So 28 00:01:21,275 --> 00:01:22,555 let's start with the basics. Do you want 29 00:01:22,555 --> 00:01:23,754 to for listeners, do you want to tell 30 00:01:23,754 --> 00:01:25,409 us a bit about yourself and where you 31 00:01:25,409 --> 00:01:26,849 are? You're in France at the moment, aren't 32 00:01:26,849 --> 00:01:27,349 you? 33 00:01:27,810 --> 00:01:30,370 Yes, sir. So I work for the United 34 00:01:30,370 --> 00:01:32,469 Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority, 35 00:01:33,170 --> 00:01:35,030 and, we serve the British taxpayer. 36 00:01:35,409 --> 00:01:37,569 And I have the honor to represent the 37 00:01:37,569 --> 00:01:38,310 British taxpayer, 38 00:01:39,094 --> 00:01:41,174 in France currently. So in, 39 00:01:41,575 --> 00:01:42,875 in that's in CEA. 40 00:01:43,174 --> 00:01:43,995 That's in 41 00:01:44,935 --> 00:01:45,435 France's, 42 00:01:45,814 --> 00:01:46,715 nuclear energy, 43 00:01:47,255 --> 00:01:48,234 research laboratory. 44 00:01:49,734 --> 00:01:50,234 And, 45 00:01:50,615 --> 00:01:52,500 so so you work in fusion. So before 46 00:01:52,500 --> 00:01:54,439 we get on to exactly what you do, 47 00:01:54,819 --> 00:01:57,719 let's have a quick reminder about fusion power 48 00:01:58,019 --> 00:02:00,260 and, you know, why it's so important for, 49 00:02:00,260 --> 00:02:02,099 you know, the future of our planet and 50 00:02:02,099 --> 00:02:03,640 our energy mix and so on. 51 00:02:04,579 --> 00:02:06,439 Yes. That'd be a pleasure. 52 00:02:06,854 --> 00:02:07,354 So 53 00:02:08,134 --> 00:02:08,634 fundamentally, 54 00:02:08,935 --> 00:02:11,414 what a fusion machine or a fusion power 55 00:02:11,414 --> 00:02:12,474 plant is doing 56 00:02:12,775 --> 00:02:13,914 is transforming 57 00:02:14,215 --> 00:02:15,435 mass into energy. 58 00:02:15,974 --> 00:02:16,474 And, 59 00:02:17,974 --> 00:02:20,134 the energy density of the fuel that they're 60 00:02:20,134 --> 00:02:22,629 working with is so high that realistically, 61 00:02:23,250 --> 00:02:25,590 at our current energy consumption rate rates, 62 00:02:26,930 --> 00:02:28,390 running out is not a concern. 63 00:02:29,810 --> 00:02:31,750 They're they're beautiful machines, 64 00:02:32,129 --> 00:02:32,629 and 65 00:02:33,010 --> 00:02:36,790 and they're very comparable to particle accelerators actually 66 00:02:37,044 --> 00:02:39,364 in this the type of components they use 67 00:02:39,364 --> 00:02:40,104 with cryogenics, 68 00:02:40,405 --> 00:02:41,224 vacuum systems, 69 00:02:41,924 --> 00:02:43,384 the kind of materials. 70 00:02:44,004 --> 00:02:44,504 And 71 00:02:45,125 --> 00:02:47,284 that means in their core, they need a 72 00:02:47,284 --> 00:02:50,185 very precise control. So what you're talking about 73 00:02:50,569 --> 00:02:52,030 is very precise control 74 00:02:52,729 --> 00:02:53,229 over 75 00:02:53,610 --> 00:02:56,490 transforming mass into energy, which if you can 76 00:02:56,490 --> 00:02:57,469 accomplish that, 77 00:02:59,610 --> 00:03:00,270 you know, 78 00:03:00,889 --> 00:03:03,129 the benefits don't need to be described, to 79 00:03:03,129 --> 00:03:04,810 your audience. I know they're very, 80 00:03:05,865 --> 00:03:06,365 scientifically, 81 00:03:07,544 --> 00:03:08,685 kind of aligned. 82 00:03:09,544 --> 00:03:09,705 So 83 00:03:11,465 --> 00:03:12,985 but, yeah, to be able to turn energy 84 00:03:12,985 --> 00:03:15,544 in a mass into energy is great. Yeah. 85 00:03:15,544 --> 00:03:16,905 I mean, it's one of the fundamental things 86 00:03:16,905 --> 00:03:18,990 of, you know, physics, isn't it? So, 87 00:03:19,469 --> 00:03:21,870 a fusion machine, and, you've told me not 88 00:03:21,870 --> 00:03:23,650 to call it a reactor. It's a machine. 89 00:03:23,870 --> 00:03:26,450 And now these are I imagine I mean, 90 00:03:26,590 --> 00:03:28,030 you know, when we have one, they'll be 91 00:03:28,110 --> 00:03:29,310 and they are the ones we have at 92 00:03:29,310 --> 00:03:31,169 the moment are pretty extreme environments. 93 00:03:32,034 --> 00:03:32,775 So what 94 00:03:33,155 --> 00:03:34,835 sort of for those who don't know, what 95 00:03:34,835 --> 00:03:37,555 sort of conditions are typically found there and 96 00:03:37,555 --> 00:03:39,335 and sort of what sort of materials 97 00:03:40,115 --> 00:03:41,955 do we therefore need to survive in those 98 00:03:41,955 --> 00:03:42,775 kind of conditions? 99 00:03:43,715 --> 00:03:46,250 Yes. Lovely. So I would I would like 100 00:03:46,250 --> 00:03:48,810 to start with, where we talked about the, 101 00:03:49,370 --> 00:03:50,110 the machine, 102 00:03:50,889 --> 00:03:53,769 idea. I heard I've heard one I've heard 103 00:03:53,769 --> 00:03:56,409 a I can't remember who is, the leader 104 00:03:56,409 --> 00:03:59,155 of a of a private, fusion company. He 105 00:03:59,155 --> 00:04:00,194 describes them as, 106 00:04:01,875 --> 00:04:02,854 fusion generators. 107 00:04:03,474 --> 00:04:03,955 And, 108 00:04:04,754 --> 00:04:06,354 because really at the end of the day, 109 00:04:06,354 --> 00:04:07,655 where we were talking about, 110 00:04:08,034 --> 00:04:10,055 this precise control over this reaction, 111 00:04:12,259 --> 00:04:12,759 it's 112 00:04:13,060 --> 00:04:15,400 quite quite quite different than 113 00:04:15,780 --> 00:04:16,279 than, 114 00:04:17,060 --> 00:04:19,560 the nuclear power plants that we use today. 115 00:04:19,860 --> 00:04:22,019 And it's important to draw a a a 116 00:04:22,019 --> 00:04:23,879 designation between the two technologies. 117 00:04:24,925 --> 00:04:27,645 So you talked about the extreme environments, and 118 00:04:27,645 --> 00:04:28,944 they are very extreme. 119 00:04:29,485 --> 00:04:31,345 One of the difficulties or 120 00:04:31,965 --> 00:04:34,145 this deep irony of fusion machines 121 00:04:34,525 --> 00:04:35,025 is 122 00:04:35,485 --> 00:04:37,905 that you they perform better 123 00:04:38,410 --> 00:04:40,189 when you take very cold 124 00:04:40,889 --> 00:04:41,389 material, 125 00:04:41,930 --> 00:04:44,189 as cold as you can possibly make it. 126 00:04:44,410 --> 00:04:46,970 When you take very cold material, and bring 127 00:04:46,970 --> 00:04:48,110 it very close 128 00:04:48,569 --> 00:04:50,970 to very hot material. So so the hot 129 00:04:50,970 --> 00:04:53,370 material would be plasma. That's where the, 130 00:04:53,944 --> 00:04:56,845 that's where the, the light atoms are combining 131 00:04:56,985 --> 00:04:57,884 and superheated 132 00:04:58,264 --> 00:04:59,245 very, very hot. 133 00:05:00,104 --> 00:05:02,104 But, of course, we use magnets to control 134 00:05:02,104 --> 00:05:03,485 these reactions as 135 00:05:04,345 --> 00:05:06,185 and, and these magnets have to be kept 136 00:05:06,185 --> 00:05:08,345 cold. So the closer these magnets are to 137 00:05:08,345 --> 00:05:10,959 this very hot plasma, the better con the 138 00:05:10,959 --> 00:05:12,959 better control of the reaction you get. It's 139 00:05:12,959 --> 00:05:13,939 a bit simplistic, 140 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,259 but in their core, they're they're almost oxymoronic 141 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:19,060 machines. 142 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:20,560 So we have, 143 00:05:21,199 --> 00:05:23,300 we we need very high temperature resistance, 144 00:05:23,824 --> 00:05:26,645 but they're very different than our existing, 145 00:05:27,985 --> 00:05:30,165 power plants because they're also 146 00:05:31,024 --> 00:05:33,205 very they're also very dynamic, 147 00:05:33,584 --> 00:05:35,925 very dynamic machines. So they're very hot, 148 00:05:36,464 --> 00:05:38,084 but they have rapid fluctuations. 149 00:05:38,879 --> 00:05:39,520 And these, 150 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,639 the combination of the extreme temperature with the 151 00:05:42,639 --> 00:05:43,139 dynamics 152 00:05:43,759 --> 00:05:44,240 is, 153 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,000 it it it presents conditions that we haven't 154 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:48,500 tested. 155 00:05:49,840 --> 00:05:51,280 And kind of that's where you come in 156 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:53,654 because you're working on, a plan for something 157 00:05:53,654 --> 00:05:55,115 called the Joule Horovitz 158 00:05:55,415 --> 00:05:55,915 Reactor 159 00:05:56,694 --> 00:05:57,134 Yes. 160 00:05:57,574 --> 00:05:58,235 Which is, 161 00:05:58,615 --> 00:06:00,935 a plan for a machine being built in, 162 00:06:01,175 --> 00:06:04,134 it's, in Cadarache in Southern France. So do 163 00:06:04,134 --> 00:06:05,035 you wanna explain 164 00:06:05,574 --> 00:06:07,829 where is it, when will it open, and 165 00:06:08,310 --> 00:06:10,409 what's it gonna do to help us understand 166 00:06:10,470 --> 00:06:12,649 materials that are relevant to fusion power? 167 00:06:13,269 --> 00:06:14,889 Very yes. So, 168 00:06:15,349 --> 00:06:18,310 the Joules Horrors Reactor is a is a 169 00:06:18,310 --> 00:06:18,810 fission 170 00:06:19,189 --> 00:06:20,649 material test facility 171 00:06:21,029 --> 00:06:22,250 being built in France. 172 00:06:22,904 --> 00:06:23,404 And, 173 00:06:24,345 --> 00:06:27,064 there's a consortium. And in this consortium, different, 174 00:06:27,464 --> 00:06:27,964 countries, 175 00:06:28,824 --> 00:06:31,384 have purchased in the past rights to the 176 00:06:31,384 --> 00:06:33,085 neutrons that come out of this machine. 177 00:06:33,785 --> 00:06:35,805 And, of course, with 178 00:06:36,349 --> 00:06:39,169 with approval from, from those that operate, 179 00:06:40,029 --> 00:06:42,449 they can use these neutrons to test various, 180 00:06:43,789 --> 00:06:46,529 degradation mechanisms or or develop fuels. 181 00:06:47,310 --> 00:06:50,464 So what what we're doing in the Fusero 182 00:06:50,685 --> 00:06:51,904 program, we're collaborating, 183 00:06:52,365 --> 00:06:54,524 with our French collaborators. It's very much an 184 00:06:54,524 --> 00:06:55,584 international collaboration. 185 00:06:56,444 --> 00:06:56,925 We have, 186 00:06:57,485 --> 00:06:59,104 we have, French contributors. 187 00:06:59,564 --> 00:07:02,204 We have our British contributors. But we we 188 00:07:02,204 --> 00:07:03,664 really share what we're doing, 189 00:07:04,939 --> 00:07:05,439 internationally 190 00:07:05,819 --> 00:07:07,660 as often as possible in order to get 191 00:07:07,660 --> 00:07:08,939 feedback and make sure that, 192 00:07:09,500 --> 00:07:11,660 we're collaborating with the right people and that 193 00:07:11,660 --> 00:07:13,120 what we're doing is, 194 00:07:13,500 --> 00:07:14,639 going in the right direction. 195 00:07:15,020 --> 00:07:17,339 So what we're doing in this program, what 196 00:07:17,339 --> 00:07:19,839 we're focusing on are highly 197 00:07:21,235 --> 00:07:22,055 instrumented experiments 198 00:07:23,634 --> 00:07:25,014 that that are testing 199 00:07:25,475 --> 00:07:26,615 material degradation 200 00:07:27,714 --> 00:07:29,095 mechanisms that result 201 00:07:29,714 --> 00:07:30,535 from dynamics. 202 00:07:31,154 --> 00:07:32,370 And this is 203 00:07:33,250 --> 00:07:33,750 during, 204 00:07:34,290 --> 00:07:36,949 neutron radiation. So these types of experiments, 205 00:07:37,889 --> 00:07:39,990 to operate in core, they're, 206 00:07:41,089 --> 00:07:41,569 they're, 207 00:07:42,209 --> 00:07:43,189 how do you say? 208 00:07:44,209 --> 00:07:46,550 Until we really started seriously, 209 00:07:47,425 --> 00:07:50,544 seeking to build commercially viable fusion power plants, 210 00:07:50,544 --> 00:07:52,404 it's hard to come up with the justification 211 00:07:52,785 --> 00:07:53,425 for this, 212 00:07:53,904 --> 00:07:55,824 for these kinds of experiments due to their 213 00:07:55,824 --> 00:07:56,805 expense and difficulty. 214 00:07:57,185 --> 00:07:57,504 But, 215 00:07:59,345 --> 00:08:01,764 with the promise of fusion power plants, 216 00:08:02,389 --> 00:08:04,629 we can justify these experiments. And they they 217 00:08:04,629 --> 00:08:05,529 become necessary. 218 00:08:06,870 --> 00:08:08,490 And and the Fusero program, 219 00:08:09,509 --> 00:08:11,349 so that's got I think you told me 220 00:08:11,349 --> 00:08:13,050 it's got eight different countries involved. 221 00:08:14,084 --> 00:08:15,925 So what how what you know, how did 222 00:08:15,925 --> 00:08:17,365 you go about doing that and what sort 223 00:08:17,365 --> 00:08:19,064 of projects are being lined up? 224 00:08:19,605 --> 00:08:20,245 Yes. So, 225 00:08:20,964 --> 00:08:23,605 it's the Fusira program is a collaboration between 226 00:08:23,605 --> 00:08:24,665 Britain and France. 227 00:08:25,524 --> 00:08:25,949 But 228 00:08:26,350 --> 00:08:26,850 we, 229 00:08:27,230 --> 00:08:28,770 we we wrote a survey 230 00:08:29,150 --> 00:08:29,650 and 231 00:08:30,350 --> 00:08:32,509 we to update our strategy, the Fusero program 232 00:08:32,509 --> 00:08:34,210 has been around for about ten years. 233 00:08:35,149 --> 00:08:38,450 Maybe maybe precisely, I think, eleven years. And, 234 00:08:38,750 --> 00:08:41,195 to update our strategy, we wrote a comprehensive, 235 00:08:43,095 --> 00:08:43,595 summary, 236 00:08:44,134 --> 00:08:46,615 of our existing strategy, and we asked the 237 00:08:46,615 --> 00:08:49,174 community to give us their insights, share us 238 00:08:49,174 --> 00:08:51,274 their insights with what they feel is important, 239 00:08:51,654 --> 00:08:54,634 for for, our, our program to explore. 240 00:08:55,230 --> 00:08:56,350 And, so yes. 241 00:08:56,909 --> 00:08:58,589 We sent it out to about 200, 242 00:08:58,909 --> 00:08:59,409 participants. 243 00:09:00,429 --> 00:09:03,149 Eight I think 13 participants from eight different 244 00:09:03,149 --> 00:09:04,990 countries responded. We have, 245 00:09:05,470 --> 00:09:08,509 got feedback from, privates from private industry, from 246 00:09:08,509 --> 00:09:10,289 academia, and national laboratories. 247 00:09:11,415 --> 00:09:12,315 And, really, 248 00:09:13,415 --> 00:09:17,035 we strengthened our existing strategy, but also 249 00:09:17,415 --> 00:09:17,915 exposed, 250 00:09:19,095 --> 00:09:20,875 a little some areas of focus. 251 00:09:21,254 --> 00:09:23,035 And so in terms of sort of specific, 252 00:09:23,654 --> 00:09:24,875 material questions, 253 00:09:26,220 --> 00:09:28,860 you know, you mentioned things like, tritium and 254 00:09:28,860 --> 00:09:31,179 steel and superconducting magnets. What sort of, what 255 00:09:31,179 --> 00:09:32,799 sort of things are we talking about? 256 00:09:33,179 --> 00:09:35,039 So we're interested in all of it, 257 00:09:36,379 --> 00:09:37,679 but we can't 258 00:09:37,995 --> 00:09:39,134 do all of it. 259 00:09:39,914 --> 00:09:42,575 But, and in in experiment that we're investing 260 00:09:42,715 --> 00:09:45,535 our energy into is one which describes 261 00:09:45,995 --> 00:09:47,535 thermal mechanical fatigue 262 00:09:48,634 --> 00:09:50,909 in a in in core. So that is 263 00:09:51,069 --> 00:09:53,389 we have a sample in the core of 264 00:09:53,389 --> 00:09:55,649 of this, wonderful Jules Horowitz, 265 00:09:56,029 --> 00:09:57,490 material test reactor. 266 00:09:58,429 --> 00:09:58,929 Incredible 267 00:09:59,389 --> 00:09:59,889 machine. 268 00:10:00,909 --> 00:10:03,069 Very, it's it's going to turn on to 269 00:10:03,069 --> 00:10:04,990 answer your previous question, it's gonna turn on 270 00:10:04,990 --> 00:10:06,195 in about ten years. 271 00:10:06,914 --> 00:10:10,695 Very sophisticated machine, and it, will complement the, 272 00:10:11,394 --> 00:10:13,475 the deep the the closing or the plan 273 00:10:13,475 --> 00:10:16,195 closing of the B R 2 reactor, which 274 00:10:16,195 --> 00:10:19,090 might get an extension to not important. But, 275 00:10:19,169 --> 00:10:21,649 they're they're they're they're they're reactors that actually 276 00:10:21,649 --> 00:10:22,710 complement each other. 277 00:10:23,250 --> 00:10:23,750 So 278 00:10:24,850 --> 00:10:26,950 to not get derailed too much, 279 00:10:27,649 --> 00:10:29,330 we're look we're working on the, 280 00:10:30,049 --> 00:10:31,509 the thermal mechanical, 281 00:10:32,634 --> 00:10:34,495 fatigue in core measurements. 282 00:10:35,034 --> 00:10:36,095 So we are 283 00:10:36,475 --> 00:10:38,254 planning to deliver an experiment 284 00:10:38,634 --> 00:10:39,375 of which 285 00:10:41,115 --> 00:10:42,095 precisely measures 286 00:10:43,034 --> 00:10:45,134 and changes or controls 287 00:10:45,899 --> 00:10:46,399 temperature 288 00:10:47,339 --> 00:10:50,539 and mechanical stress of a sample in core. 289 00:10:50,539 --> 00:10:53,600 So that is during very intense neutron irradiation. 290 00:10:54,220 --> 00:10:56,620 And this is a nontrivial thing to seek 291 00:10:56,620 --> 00:10:57,360 to accomplish. 292 00:10:58,825 --> 00:11:00,045 Some other experiments, 293 00:11:00,585 --> 00:11:01,945 of great interest are, 294 00:11:02,985 --> 00:11:05,004 are tritium production, which is essentially 295 00:11:06,264 --> 00:11:06,764 essentially, 296 00:11:07,598 --> 00:11:08,098 essentially, 297 00:11:09,625 --> 00:11:10,605 fission fuel. 298 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:13,480 This is this is a, 299 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,940 complicated subject to, to really 300 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:19,740 to plan around currently. 301 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:22,220 It's because, 302 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,019 yeah, there's concerns that 303 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:27,019 must be addressed. 304 00:11:27,584 --> 00:11:29,584 But we're also working on some other, 305 00:11:30,384 --> 00:11:33,105 some other some other experiments. We we're building 306 00:11:33,105 --> 00:11:37,204 some some experimental setups in Marseille right now 307 00:11:37,264 --> 00:11:39,824 where we examine subcritical crack growth of brittle 308 00:11:39,824 --> 00:11:42,620 materials. So this is interesting because windows are, 309 00:11:42,860 --> 00:11:45,039 infusion reactors or essential component, 310 00:11:45,500 --> 00:11:46,379 and they, 311 00:11:46,779 --> 00:11:47,419 they provide, 312 00:11:47,820 --> 00:11:51,580 isolation of the vacuum from from from air, 313 00:11:51,580 --> 00:11:51,820 from, 314 00:11:52,620 --> 00:11:53,120 pressurized 315 00:11:53,659 --> 00:11:54,159 volumes 316 00:11:55,285 --> 00:11:58,004 for diagnostic systems, but they're also subject to 317 00:11:58,004 --> 00:11:59,545 neutron loading and, 318 00:12:00,404 --> 00:12:03,705 and and due to their, changing temperature, fluctuating 319 00:12:03,845 --> 00:12:06,485 mechanical stress. So there there and, really, we 320 00:12:06,485 --> 00:12:08,720 don't we don't know that much about 321 00:12:09,139 --> 00:12:09,639 how, 322 00:12:10,539 --> 00:12:11,039 precise, 323 00:12:12,620 --> 00:12:15,899 material about about how much certain material property 324 00:12:15,899 --> 00:12:17,740 degradation mechanisms such as, 325 00:12:18,379 --> 00:12:20,539 subcritical crack growth in the field of fracture 326 00:12:20,539 --> 00:12:21,039 mechanics 327 00:12:21,544 --> 00:12:22,044 really 328 00:12:22,424 --> 00:12:22,924 changes 329 00:12:23,384 --> 00:12:24,684 with neutron irradiation. 330 00:12:25,304 --> 00:12:27,464 It's accurate to say we don't know if 331 00:12:27,464 --> 00:12:28,204 that mechanism 332 00:12:28,504 --> 00:12:30,524 actually gets worse or better, 333 00:12:31,865 --> 00:12:32,924 under these conditions. 334 00:12:33,304 --> 00:12:34,924 I'm sorry. That was a bit of a 335 00:12:36,179 --> 00:12:37,000 detailed answer. 336 00:12:37,860 --> 00:12:39,700 But how do you, I'm trying to think. 337 00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:41,139 You know, how do you plan these experiments, 338 00:12:41,139 --> 00:12:42,820 something that's not gonna open for ten years? 339 00:12:42,820 --> 00:12:43,700 You know, how do you, 340 00:12:44,580 --> 00:12:46,259 how do you know what's what's gonna work, 341 00:12:46,259 --> 00:12:47,620 or how do you even plan that far 342 00:12:47,620 --> 00:12:48,120 ahead? 343 00:12:48,424 --> 00:12:50,664 That's seems like an insanely long time scale 344 00:12:50,664 --> 00:12:52,584 for these sort of things. So we have 345 00:12:52,584 --> 00:12:54,504 to think we have to think on these 346 00:12:54,504 --> 00:12:56,444 time scales. We have to think about, 347 00:12:57,064 --> 00:12:59,884 what kind we have to choose an experiment 348 00:12:59,944 --> 00:13:01,804 of an appropriate amount of complexity 349 00:13:02,184 --> 00:13:03,485 for ten years of planning. 350 00:13:04,079 --> 00:13:04,819 That said, 351 00:13:05,519 --> 00:13:06,740 the United UKAEA, 352 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:09,139 and I work in the materials division, 353 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:11,779 under, Amy Gandy, 354 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,740 and our director is Amanda Quadling. 355 00:13:15,279 --> 00:13:17,919 And we have, and some of my other, 356 00:13:18,159 --> 00:13:18,659 colleagues, 357 00:13:19,654 --> 00:13:21,174 Slava Coccinto and, 358 00:13:21,575 --> 00:13:22,315 Chris Hardy, 359 00:13:23,095 --> 00:13:24,154 we work together, 360 00:13:24,535 --> 00:13:27,335 and we do perform radiations in in other 361 00:13:27,335 --> 00:13:29,495 reactors that are actually that are actually on 362 00:13:29,495 --> 00:13:32,875 today. And so we both build experiments to, 363 00:13:33,335 --> 00:13:33,835 prove, 364 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,160 that to prove out, things that can be 365 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,040 proven out of a reactor. But then we 366 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,759 also have a radiation programs in operating reactors 367 00:13:42,759 --> 00:13:43,259 today 368 00:13:43,639 --> 00:13:46,920 that, that answers some really fundamental questions. And 369 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:48,759 and you kind of piece all of this 370 00:13:48,759 --> 00:13:49,259 together, 371 00:13:50,245 --> 00:13:52,264 in order to build robust strategies 372 00:13:52,644 --> 00:13:52,884 that, 373 00:13:53,764 --> 00:13:54,504 that inevitably 374 00:13:55,125 --> 00:13:58,245 must be answered at some point. So we're 375 00:13:58,245 --> 00:13:59,225 we're preparing, 376 00:13:59,924 --> 00:14:02,565 for the future. We're thinking ten, fifteen years 377 00:14:02,565 --> 00:14:04,690 out, but we're taking actions 378 00:14:04,990 --> 00:14:07,170 today that give us results today, 379 00:14:08,110 --> 00:14:09,970 to to really try to make, 380 00:14:11,790 --> 00:14:13,730 fusion power plants commercially viable. 381 00:14:14,509 --> 00:14:16,190 I was gonna say, how will that information 382 00:14:16,190 --> 00:14:18,225 that you get from those experiments feed through 383 00:14:18,225 --> 00:14:20,625 to people building commercial power plants? If you 384 00:14:20,625 --> 00:14:23,105 talk to commercial fusion companies, they'll tell you, 385 00:14:23,105 --> 00:14:24,945 you know, we're on the cusp of doing 386 00:14:24,945 --> 00:14:27,345 something, but you're talking ten years ahead. How 387 00:14:27,345 --> 00:14:30,144 how do the time scales fit? So very 388 00:14:30,144 --> 00:14:31,764 interesting question. There's, 389 00:14:32,149 --> 00:14:33,429 at the end of the day, you're you're 390 00:14:33,429 --> 00:14:36,389 you're you're you're asking really the one of 391 00:14:36,389 --> 00:14:37,990 the hardest things to pull off in research, 392 00:14:37,990 --> 00:14:40,170 which is how do you do valuable research 393 00:14:40,230 --> 00:14:42,309 and turn it into outputs that make a 394 00:14:42,309 --> 00:14:42,809 difference? 395 00:14:43,350 --> 00:14:44,809 So we have to, 396 00:14:45,590 --> 00:14:47,450 we have to be aware of 397 00:14:48,065 --> 00:14:49,904 what we intend to do with these results. 398 00:14:49,904 --> 00:14:50,965 Are we going to, 399 00:14:52,225 --> 00:14:55,445 patent our inventions that that that have, 400 00:14:55,825 --> 00:14:56,804 commercial viability? 401 00:14:57,345 --> 00:14:59,664 Are we going to publish our work to 402 00:14:59,664 --> 00:15:02,164 enable other researchers to progress the field? 403 00:15:02,500 --> 00:15:05,480 Are we going to maybe learn something specific 404 00:15:05,540 --> 00:15:08,340 that we then integrate into a commercially viable 405 00:15:08,340 --> 00:15:10,840 or a design of a of of Britain's, 406 00:15:11,940 --> 00:15:13,800 fusion fusion power plant? 407 00:15:15,774 --> 00:15:16,274 There's 408 00:15:16,735 --> 00:15:17,235 there's 409 00:15:17,855 --> 00:15:18,355 there's 410 00:15:19,134 --> 00:15:20,654 we have to be we always have to 411 00:15:20,654 --> 00:15:21,875 be conscious about, 412 00:15:22,575 --> 00:15:23,075 translating 413 00:15:23,535 --> 00:15:24,915 our research into value. 414 00:15:25,535 --> 00:15:26,035 And 415 00:15:27,910 --> 00:15:29,750 and and we have to we have to 416 00:15:29,750 --> 00:15:32,070 know where we're going. So you asked, 417 00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:34,309 how do we make how do we ensure 418 00:15:34,309 --> 00:15:36,389 that what we're doing makes a difference? And 419 00:15:36,389 --> 00:15:38,549 and and I really do think it comes 420 00:15:38,549 --> 00:15:42,250 down to thinking ten years, fifteen years ahead 421 00:15:42,414 --> 00:15:44,495 and knowing where we're going and why we're 422 00:15:44,495 --> 00:15:45,934 doing it. And, 423 00:15:46,975 --> 00:15:47,475 and, 424 00:15:48,735 --> 00:15:50,654 yeah, I guess we'll see we'll see in 425 00:15:50,654 --> 00:15:52,274 ten years if that's valid. 426 00:15:53,294 --> 00:15:55,215 And so you're in Kadesh in France. Obviously, 427 00:15:55,215 --> 00:15:57,199 everyone knows that for the ITER 428 00:15:58,539 --> 00:16:02,139 fusion experimental experiment there. Do you have do 429 00:16:02,139 --> 00:16:03,579 you work together with them? How would how 430 00:16:03,579 --> 00:16:05,419 does the information from what you're planning to 431 00:16:05,419 --> 00:16:07,039 do, how will that fit into 432 00:16:07,419 --> 00:16:09,039 what might go on there at ITER? 433 00:16:09,579 --> 00:16:11,120 Yeah. So, ITER, 434 00:16:12,125 --> 00:16:14,365 I've had the great honor to visit it 435 00:16:14,365 --> 00:16:15,024 three times 436 00:16:15,884 --> 00:16:18,524 in the last, I think, six months. And 437 00:16:18,524 --> 00:16:19,424 each time, 438 00:16:19,884 --> 00:16:22,384 I was shocked how much progress they're making. 439 00:16:22,605 --> 00:16:23,105 There's 440 00:16:23,644 --> 00:16:26,365 very large components being as very large, very 441 00:16:26,365 --> 00:16:26,865 complex 442 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,139 components being assembled and installed today. 443 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:31,340 This place, 444 00:16:32,279 --> 00:16:35,080 looks like a place where lots of work 445 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:36,620 is happening. So, 446 00:16:37,799 --> 00:16:39,820 I'm I'm very impressed with that project. 447 00:16:40,565 --> 00:16:42,404 We have the great and and and and 448 00:16:42,404 --> 00:16:45,125 through through doing these amazing things, they they 449 00:16:45,125 --> 00:16:46,024 really have, 450 00:16:48,004 --> 00:16:49,304 they've really exposed 451 00:16:51,365 --> 00:16:53,225 crucial questions that need to be answered. 452 00:16:54,450 --> 00:16:56,950 So we we we've had the chance to, 453 00:16:57,570 --> 00:16:58,070 to, 454 00:16:58,610 --> 00:17:01,089 integrate with, people at various levels in the 455 00:17:01,089 --> 00:17:01,830 ITER program. 456 00:17:02,370 --> 00:17:04,549 And for specific specific, 457 00:17:05,809 --> 00:17:07,829 projects, we would discuss specifications 458 00:17:08,369 --> 00:17:09,029 of theirs, 459 00:17:09,404 --> 00:17:11,805 and how we and and and then how 460 00:17:11,805 --> 00:17:12,465 can we, 461 00:17:13,565 --> 00:17:14,865 change what we're doing 462 00:17:15,164 --> 00:17:15,664 to, 463 00:17:16,525 --> 00:17:17,025 support 464 00:17:17,325 --> 00:17:18,625 the the questions 465 00:17:18,924 --> 00:17:21,265 that they have deemed to be crucial. 466 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,720 So we do have the opportunity to, kind 467 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:26,019 of collaborate with them, 468 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:27,859 but they are 469 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,119 in much later phases. So it's maybe less 470 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,279 of a collaboration and more of us learning 471 00:17:33,279 --> 00:17:36,134 from them, from their from their decisions and 472 00:17:36,134 --> 00:17:38,215 and and understanding the things that they're concerned 473 00:17:38,215 --> 00:17:40,154 about and trying to keep us, 474 00:17:40,535 --> 00:17:42,075 on path on the right path. 475 00:17:42,775 --> 00:17:44,535 And the under other interesting thing you mentioned 476 00:17:44,535 --> 00:17:46,934 to me was that the role of, computer 477 00:17:46,934 --> 00:17:48,154 modeling and AI 478 00:17:48,695 --> 00:17:52,009 approaches can play in kind of complementing the 479 00:17:52,009 --> 00:17:54,329 experiments that you're gonna do with when you 480 00:17:54,329 --> 00:17:57,130 come to test materials in a fusion reactor. 481 00:17:57,130 --> 00:17:58,490 So do you wanna tell us a bit 482 00:17:58,490 --> 00:17:59,150 about that? 483 00:17:59,849 --> 00:18:00,349 Yes. 484 00:18:01,049 --> 00:18:02,809 So a very, very, 485 00:18:03,369 --> 00:18:04,934 I'm excited about about, 486 00:18:05,335 --> 00:18:07,595 applying artificial intelligence. Of course, 487 00:18:08,055 --> 00:18:10,055 how you choose to do it, maybe considering 488 00:18:10,055 --> 00:18:11,975 to use local models if you're working with 489 00:18:11,975 --> 00:18:12,475 something 490 00:18:12,855 --> 00:18:14,615 either, of course, choosing not to use a 491 00:18:14,615 --> 00:18:17,195 model if it's, if it's something sensitive. 492 00:18:17,779 --> 00:18:19,240 Using a local model 493 00:18:20,019 --> 00:18:20,179 if, 494 00:18:21,220 --> 00:18:21,619 if, 495 00:18:22,019 --> 00:18:24,599 if if it's if it's if it's wise. 496 00:18:24,819 --> 00:18:26,339 So we have to we have to apply 497 00:18:26,339 --> 00:18:28,659 it in intelligent ways and and and and 498 00:18:28,659 --> 00:18:29,880 be aware of security, 499 00:18:30,339 --> 00:18:33,391 security concerns that that they present. That said, 500 00:18:33,658 --> 00:18:34,424 the technology, 501 00:18:35,365 --> 00:18:35,865 seems 502 00:18:36,164 --> 00:18:36,664 to 503 00:18:38,804 --> 00:18:40,345 seems to offer an opportunity 504 00:18:40,724 --> 00:18:44,005 to accelerate research and development dramatically. Not only 505 00:18:44,005 --> 00:18:46,599 in in the in in in giving giving 506 00:18:46,599 --> 00:18:49,480 researchers access and then and access to information 507 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,319 and what other people are doing much more 508 00:18:51,319 --> 00:18:54,039 easily, enabling them to be more creative. But 509 00:18:54,039 --> 00:18:56,920 just planning and just simple things like planning 510 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:57,980 and getting projects, 511 00:18:58,595 --> 00:18:59,095 justified 512 00:18:59,955 --> 00:19:02,615 and and and executing projects, 513 00:19:03,394 --> 00:19:05,815 will be so much easier. I'm very excited 514 00:19:06,275 --> 00:19:08,515 about the effect that this will have on 515 00:19:08,515 --> 00:19:09,734 fusion long term. 516 00:19:11,549 --> 00:19:12,049 I 517 00:19:12,350 --> 00:19:13,650 it seems that 518 00:19:15,390 --> 00:19:18,350 that this is that artificial intelligence is almost 519 00:19:18,350 --> 00:19:21,150 an enabling technology for fusion. So this is, 520 00:19:21,789 --> 00:19:24,110 very exciting, a very exciting time to be 521 00:19:24,110 --> 00:19:26,815 in fusion. The the the the the questions 522 00:19:26,955 --> 00:19:28,174 that need answering, 523 00:19:29,115 --> 00:19:31,375 there's so many valuable things to do. 524 00:19:31,674 --> 00:19:35,535 And, with artificial intelligence, you really feel empowered 525 00:19:35,994 --> 00:19:38,394 to, accomplish as much as possible and really 526 00:19:38,394 --> 00:19:39,855 contribute as much as possible 527 00:19:40,289 --> 00:19:41,750 to our shared mission, 528 00:19:42,450 --> 00:19:44,610 that that humans share. It's very a human 529 00:19:44,610 --> 00:19:46,309 thing, to try to, 530 00:19:47,090 --> 00:19:47,590 control, 531 00:19:47,970 --> 00:19:48,289 the, 532 00:19:49,330 --> 00:19:51,750 the the the fusion, the fusion process. 533 00:19:52,130 --> 00:19:52,630 And 534 00:19:53,835 --> 00:19:56,075 on a short very short tangent, but but 535 00:19:56,075 --> 00:19:58,335 something very interesting about the fusion industry is 536 00:19:59,595 --> 00:20:02,234 dating back to when, when tokamaks were being 537 00:20:02,234 --> 00:20:02,734 invented, 538 00:20:03,194 --> 00:20:03,694 during 539 00:20:04,554 --> 00:20:05,454 dating back 540 00:20:05,835 --> 00:20:06,930 quite some time ago, 541 00:20:08,210 --> 00:20:10,130 If fusion the fusion industry in its core 542 00:20:10,130 --> 00:20:10,950 is a very, 543 00:20:11,650 --> 00:20:12,630 a very collaborative, 544 00:20:13,410 --> 00:20:14,869 a very collaborative thing. 545 00:20:15,250 --> 00:20:15,750 And 546 00:20:16,130 --> 00:20:16,610 and, 547 00:20:16,930 --> 00:20:17,430 so 548 00:20:17,730 --> 00:20:21,345 it's it's it's very nice to have the 549 00:20:21,345 --> 00:20:21,845 feeling 550 00:20:22,304 --> 00:20:22,804 that, 551 00:20:23,585 --> 00:20:25,204 you're contributing to humanity's 552 00:20:25,664 --> 00:20:27,125 to humanity's benefit. 553 00:20:27,585 --> 00:20:29,904 And, it's it really is something that I 554 00:20:29,904 --> 00:20:30,404 feel, 555 00:20:31,024 --> 00:20:32,644 you can derive hope from. 556 00:20:33,024 --> 00:20:34,890 So would the AI be a case of, 557 00:20:35,529 --> 00:20:38,250 drawing information from different sources together to give 558 00:20:38,250 --> 00:20:40,809 you a clearer picture of what's happened? Or 559 00:20:40,809 --> 00:20:42,190 would it be about suggesting 560 00:20:42,809 --> 00:20:44,970 new types of experiments or coming up with 561 00:20:44,970 --> 00:20:46,829 ideas for materials to test? 562 00:20:47,335 --> 00:20:48,475 How do you see it happening? 563 00:20:48,855 --> 00:20:50,695 So the funny thing is is I think 564 00:20:50,695 --> 00:20:53,595 it's just a it's just a fundamental 565 00:20:54,134 --> 00:20:55,755 everyone gets more productive. 566 00:20:56,215 --> 00:20:58,555 I think it's just everyone gets 567 00:20:58,934 --> 00:21:00,615 as simple as people get better at writing 568 00:21:00,615 --> 00:21:01,115 emails 569 00:21:02,289 --> 00:21:05,269 to to people actually get better at, 570 00:21:06,049 --> 00:21:08,070 at learning things more quickly. 571 00:21:08,769 --> 00:21:11,990 And these these these small changes compounds. 572 00:21:13,330 --> 00:21:14,630 Even, like, 573 00:21:16,065 --> 00:21:17,605 people write script 574 00:21:18,144 --> 00:21:18,964 more quickly. 575 00:21:19,505 --> 00:21:21,984 And these these things are going to have, 576 00:21:22,785 --> 00:21:25,984 really compounding effects on, on on on on 577 00:21:25,984 --> 00:21:28,464 on our macro scale projects, on the macro 578 00:21:28,464 --> 00:21:29,204 scale effect, 579 00:21:29,870 --> 00:21:32,830 on on the effects will be really, really 580 00:21:32,830 --> 00:21:35,710 interesting to watch over time. So, for me, 581 00:21:35,950 --> 00:21:39,410 my favorite thing is I've always enjoyed writing 582 00:21:39,470 --> 00:21:41,250 numerical solvers. So, 583 00:21:41,965 --> 00:21:42,865 I always enjoyed, 584 00:21:43,325 --> 00:21:45,805 kind of defining mathematical models and then using 585 00:21:45,805 --> 00:21:47,025 partial differential equations 586 00:21:47,404 --> 00:21:49,325 to, to describe the model. And then I 587 00:21:49,325 --> 00:21:50,384 would always write, 588 00:21:51,244 --> 00:21:52,384 numerical solvers. 589 00:21:52,765 --> 00:21:55,210 My preferred preferred language is MATLAB. And they 590 00:21:55,210 --> 00:21:57,690 were always writing numerical solvers to solve these 591 00:21:57,690 --> 00:21:58,190 equations. 592 00:21:58,970 --> 00:22:00,750 But then to do the plotting 593 00:22:01,210 --> 00:22:03,690 and just just, like, just to make the 594 00:22:03,690 --> 00:22:06,170 scripts and make sure there's no bugs takes 595 00:22:06,170 --> 00:22:07,150 a lot of time. 596 00:22:07,610 --> 00:22:09,865 And and and I love doing it, but 597 00:22:09,865 --> 00:22:12,424 now you can do that so quickly. It's 598 00:22:12,424 --> 00:22:14,525 so empowering. It feels so good. 599 00:22:15,784 --> 00:22:17,144 Yeah. No. I can imagine that. I'm just 600 00:22:17,144 --> 00:22:19,085 saying that must be a great great feeling. 601 00:22:19,544 --> 00:22:20,044 Yeah. 602 00:22:20,505 --> 00:22:22,919 But coming back the Fusaro program that you've 603 00:22:22,919 --> 00:22:25,000 been being involved in, you know, so obviously 604 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,440 the question is how, you know, how is 605 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,759 that gonna help the results from the how 606 00:22:28,759 --> 00:22:29,660 will that help 607 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,500 accelerate the timeline towards a working fusion reactor? 608 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,924 I mean, realistically, how would it help? 609 00:22:36,325 --> 00:22:37,465 So we are addressing 610 00:22:37,845 --> 00:22:38,345 some 611 00:22:38,965 --> 00:22:42,244 some pretty fundamental questions. Our our objective with 612 00:22:42,244 --> 00:22:45,144 with with Fusero c, which is characterizing 613 00:22:45,525 --> 00:22:46,904 thermal mechanical fatigue 614 00:22:47,285 --> 00:22:47,765 with, 615 00:22:48,259 --> 00:22:49,880 with plasma facing components. 616 00:22:50,259 --> 00:22:53,940 If we characterize this properly, engineers can make 617 00:22:53,940 --> 00:22:54,840 design decisions 618 00:22:55,299 --> 00:22:55,799 that 619 00:22:56,259 --> 00:22:56,759 enable 620 00:22:57,619 --> 00:23:00,180 the the the machine to operate for longer 621 00:23:00,180 --> 00:23:01,240 periods of time 622 00:23:02,180 --> 00:23:03,400 without shutting off. 623 00:23:03,784 --> 00:23:06,505 It enables us to design materials that can 624 00:23:06,505 --> 00:23:07,724 operate at higher temperatures. 625 00:23:08,505 --> 00:23:10,825 Both of those things have a profound effect 626 00:23:10,825 --> 00:23:12,365 on the economics of the machine. 627 00:23:13,144 --> 00:23:15,565 So by addressing the fundamental 628 00:23:17,090 --> 00:23:18,470 the fundamental questions, 629 00:23:19,009 --> 00:23:20,230 in material degradation, 630 00:23:20,850 --> 00:23:21,670 we are 631 00:23:22,289 --> 00:23:25,410 we we enable ourselves to make machines that 632 00:23:25,410 --> 00:23:28,690 are more financially competitive. And what's interesting about 633 00:23:28,690 --> 00:23:29,990 this is 634 00:23:30,609 --> 00:23:31,509 when you increase 635 00:23:32,225 --> 00:23:34,785 the operating temperature or the outlet temperature of 636 00:23:34,785 --> 00:23:36,244 coolant from a, 637 00:23:36,625 --> 00:23:38,484 fusion machine by 638 00:23:39,184 --> 00:23:41,445 like, let's just say you double it. 639 00:23:43,505 --> 00:23:45,684 This more than doubles the economic 640 00:23:47,740 --> 00:23:48,240 competitiveness 641 00:23:48,619 --> 00:23:50,799 of the machine that you're working with. So 642 00:23:51,180 --> 00:23:52,160 so small changes 643 00:23:52,779 --> 00:23:54,320 have a profound effect. 644 00:23:54,779 --> 00:23:56,779 And, and that's really what we need. We 645 00:23:56,779 --> 00:23:58,619 need a lot of these kind of, like, 646 00:23:58,619 --> 00:23:59,119 nonlinear 647 00:23:59,500 --> 00:24:01,964 increases in performance, and and I think we're 648 00:24:01,964 --> 00:24:03,565 going to see that. And what we really 649 00:24:03,565 --> 00:24:06,224 do need are these these kinds of experiments, 650 00:24:06,365 --> 00:24:07,825 these in situ, 651 00:24:09,565 --> 00:24:12,765 heavily instrumented experiments in material test reactors that 652 00:24:12,765 --> 00:24:13,585 exist today. 653 00:24:15,549 --> 00:24:16,990 And look into the future then, 654 00:24:18,190 --> 00:24:18,690 Jacob. 655 00:24:20,509 --> 00:24:22,369 You know, what sort of technical milestones 656 00:24:22,670 --> 00:24:23,490 do you see, 657 00:24:23,950 --> 00:24:26,109 you're gonna hope to achieve with that Fusero 658 00:24:26,109 --> 00:24:27,809 program in the next few years? 659 00:24:28,964 --> 00:24:31,525 So this this is, like, this is very 660 00:24:31,525 --> 00:24:32,025 dependent 661 00:24:32,644 --> 00:24:34,744 on, on the funding that we get. 662 00:24:35,204 --> 00:24:36,744 But we have plans, 663 00:24:37,845 --> 00:24:39,944 we we have plans to deliver. 664 00:24:40,850 --> 00:24:41,509 We have 665 00:24:42,289 --> 00:24:45,090 detailed plans that we're very confident we can 666 00:24:45,090 --> 00:24:46,390 stick to the time, 667 00:24:47,090 --> 00:24:49,029 to that we can deliver some 668 00:24:49,410 --> 00:24:52,309 some pretty important results inside of four years. 669 00:24:52,765 --> 00:24:53,505 And so 670 00:24:54,605 --> 00:24:57,085 this is this kind of inside of four 671 00:24:57,085 --> 00:24:57,565 years, 672 00:24:57,964 --> 00:24:58,865 that is possible, 673 00:24:59,325 --> 00:25:01,184 assuming we get the funding necessary. 674 00:25:02,605 --> 00:25:04,444 But these kinds of things, I mean, sometimes 675 00:25:04,444 --> 00:25:06,224 you have to spend time, 676 00:25:06,605 --> 00:25:07,170 you know, 677 00:25:07,970 --> 00:25:09,890 sometimes the experiment that you're working with has 678 00:25:09,890 --> 00:25:12,070 to be in the reactor for a year. 679 00:25:12,369 --> 00:25:14,690 So it's like, there's nothing you can't make 680 00:25:14,690 --> 00:25:16,769 it be less than one year. And so 681 00:25:16,769 --> 00:25:17,990 four years is actually, 682 00:25:18,450 --> 00:25:19,570 quite quite, 683 00:25:19,970 --> 00:25:22,390 quite competitive when it comes to 684 00:25:24,154 --> 00:25:25,775 time and durations and delivery. 685 00:25:27,835 --> 00:25:30,154 So we we do want to see changes 686 00:25:30,154 --> 00:25:31,214 and and impacts 687 00:25:31,674 --> 00:25:32,974 as soon as possible, 688 00:25:34,234 --> 00:25:36,494 but we have to be honest with ourselves 689 00:25:36,795 --> 00:25:37,194 that, 690 00:25:37,650 --> 00:25:39,330 what we're trying to do isn't something that 691 00:25:39,330 --> 00:25:40,230 happens quickly. 692 00:25:40,609 --> 00:25:42,210 So that would be four years after the 693 00:25:42,210 --> 00:25:44,390 thing turns on in in ten years' time. 694 00:25:44,849 --> 00:25:46,630 So as I said as I said earlier, 695 00:25:47,490 --> 00:25:49,785 so we are planning for the Jules Horrods 696 00:25:49,865 --> 00:25:52,265 reactor, and there's some experiments that we're developing 697 00:25:52,265 --> 00:25:54,125 that do actually need ten years of experiment, 698 00:25:54,424 --> 00:25:55,005 of development. 699 00:25:55,545 --> 00:25:57,164 But we have plans, 700 00:25:57,705 --> 00:25:59,865 plans we have plans, and there are only 701 00:25:59,865 --> 00:26:00,924 plans right now, 702 00:26:02,345 --> 00:26:04,285 to leverage other machines 703 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:05,980 to 704 00:26:06,679 --> 00:26:07,399 do something, 705 00:26:07,799 --> 00:26:09,399 do something today. And we we do have 706 00:26:09,399 --> 00:26:11,500 actually have radiation programs going, 707 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,679 today. But what's interesting is when you operate 708 00:26:14,679 --> 00:26:17,319 one one radiation program in one machine, maybe 709 00:26:17,319 --> 00:26:20,194 prove out some experimental concepts, you can then 710 00:26:20,194 --> 00:26:22,355 use it again in a different machine assuming 711 00:26:22,355 --> 00:26:24,595 you have the right agreements in place with 712 00:26:24,595 --> 00:26:26,914 the laboratories that you're working with. Yeah. Given 713 00:26:26,914 --> 00:26:28,755 those long time scales, you know, if if 714 00:26:28,755 --> 00:26:29,575 I was a 715 00:26:30,049 --> 00:26:32,609 a, you know, young student going into, you 716 00:26:32,609 --> 00:26:34,289 know, thinking where to go with my research 717 00:26:34,289 --> 00:26:36,069 career, these are very long term questions. 718 00:26:36,849 --> 00:26:38,769 Some people might want a quicker fix than 719 00:26:38,769 --> 00:26:40,450 sort of things that happen quicker than that. 720 00:26:41,250 --> 00:26:43,009 What do you see as the, 721 00:26:43,490 --> 00:26:45,944 attractions of working in this area if you're 722 00:26:45,944 --> 00:26:48,105 a sort of up and coming scientist or 723 00:26:48,105 --> 00:26:48,605 engineer? 724 00:26:49,384 --> 00:26:51,865 I would say the the best thing about 725 00:26:51,865 --> 00:26:53,325 working in the fusion industry 726 00:26:54,184 --> 00:26:54,684 is, 727 00:26:55,545 --> 00:26:56,984 the people that you get to spend your 728 00:26:56,984 --> 00:26:57,724 time with. 729 00:26:58,349 --> 00:26:58,849 The 730 00:26:59,390 --> 00:27:00,990 it's it's a pleasure to come in every 731 00:27:00,990 --> 00:27:03,630 day and work with people that love what 732 00:27:03,630 --> 00:27:06,670 they're doing, and and every person is excited 733 00:27:06,670 --> 00:27:09,250 to share what they're working on. So, 734 00:27:09,710 --> 00:27:11,490 if that's something that you like doing, 735 00:27:12,509 --> 00:27:12,829 then, 736 00:27:13,414 --> 00:27:14,554 then it's a good place. 737 00:27:15,015 --> 00:27:16,694 But but but I also appreciate what you 738 00:27:16,694 --> 00:27:19,974 say. Like like, my background is actually, I've 739 00:27:19,974 --> 00:27:22,054 I've been interested in I've been my my 740 00:27:22,054 --> 00:27:24,214 first role in in the nuclear facility was 741 00:27:24,214 --> 00:27:25,434 almost ten years ago. 742 00:27:26,090 --> 00:27:28,269 But I have also had in, positions 743 00:27:28,570 --> 00:27:29,470 working in, 744 00:27:30,250 --> 00:27:31,070 other industries 745 00:27:31,450 --> 00:27:34,029 that have very high pressure, very high turnaround, 746 00:27:34,650 --> 00:27:37,230 and I do like that. So 747 00:27:38,009 --> 00:27:39,630 so you're asking a good question. 748 00:27:40,015 --> 00:27:40,755 And I 749 00:27:41,294 --> 00:27:41,794 think 750 00:27:42,174 --> 00:27:44,575 so there's first, there's some private private in 751 00:27:44,654 --> 00:27:46,755 private industries. Some private companies, 752 00:27:48,335 --> 00:27:50,894 depending on how much funding they have, they 753 00:27:50,894 --> 00:27:52,335 do they do build a fair amount of 754 00:27:52,335 --> 00:27:52,835 experiments. 755 00:27:53,134 --> 00:27:54,595 But if you align yourself 756 00:27:54,974 --> 00:27:55,474 with 757 00:27:57,039 --> 00:27:59,039 with if you if you if you present 758 00:27:59,039 --> 00:28:01,200 yourself and you build the skill set of 759 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,460 actually building things, like like, 760 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:04,500 familiar 761 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:06,420 with with manufacturing 762 00:28:06,799 --> 00:28:07,299 facilities 763 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:08,580 and 764 00:28:09,034 --> 00:28:11,375 tolerances and materials and actually 765 00:28:11,755 --> 00:28:13,454 designing and putting things together, 766 00:28:14,554 --> 00:28:16,075 there will be roles for you. And something 767 00:28:16,075 --> 00:28:19,134 that I'm very excited about, with artificial intelligence 768 00:28:19,515 --> 00:28:20,575 is that it's 769 00:28:20,875 --> 00:28:21,375 it's 770 00:28:21,835 --> 00:28:22,734 it accelerates 771 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:23,980 things 772 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:27,259 like things like, 773 00:28:28,599 --> 00:28:30,440 things that you would use computers for, but 774 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:31,500 it doesn't accelerate, 775 00:28:32,279 --> 00:28:34,779 running a mill or running a CNC machine. 776 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,095 And I think what we're gonna see is 777 00:28:37,575 --> 00:28:38,075 more, 778 00:28:39,015 --> 00:28:39,494 more, 779 00:28:40,054 --> 00:28:41,994 more value put onto the production 780 00:28:42,694 --> 00:28:45,914 and the assembly and the actual experiments experiments. 781 00:28:46,615 --> 00:28:47,115 So 782 00:28:47,494 --> 00:28:48,394 I would say, 783 00:28:49,654 --> 00:28:51,275 if you want to be in fusion, 784 00:28:51,654 --> 00:28:52,954 learn physics, 785 00:28:53,380 --> 00:28:53,880 learn, 786 00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:58,039 many many fields in engineering. Don't specialize don't 787 00:28:58,259 --> 00:29:01,059 stick yourself into one like, I studied mechanical 788 00:29:01,059 --> 00:29:01,559 engineering, 789 00:29:02,900 --> 00:29:05,220 but I took extra courses in physics and, 790 00:29:05,855 --> 00:29:08,015 and math and electrical engineering, and and you 791 00:29:08,015 --> 00:29:09,315 can combine these subjects. 792 00:29:10,015 --> 00:29:10,994 But I also, 793 00:29:11,615 --> 00:29:14,355 took a job, working in a manufacturing facility 794 00:29:14,815 --> 00:29:18,015 where, I I I didn't necessarily get paid 795 00:29:18,015 --> 00:29:20,259 to directly use those skill sets. But but 796 00:29:20,259 --> 00:29:21,319 learning learning 797 00:29:21,779 --> 00:29:24,359 from people operating machines, how to build things, 798 00:29:26,420 --> 00:29:29,059 is probably one of the most, complimentary and 799 00:29:29,059 --> 00:29:29,539 valuable, 800 00:29:29,859 --> 00:29:32,019 experiences that I've had. So I would really 801 00:29:32,019 --> 00:29:33,960 suggest for for students, 802 00:29:34,964 --> 00:29:37,224 to study physics, to do PhDs, 803 00:29:37,765 --> 00:29:40,404 but to not shy away from working in 804 00:29:40,404 --> 00:29:41,704 manufacturing facilities. 805 00:29:42,724 --> 00:29:44,164 So have you got any sense before we 806 00:29:44,164 --> 00:29:46,244 finish about, you know, time scales? So when 807 00:29:46,244 --> 00:29:47,160 will we see a 808 00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:49,640 commercial fusion reactor 809 00:29:50,039 --> 00:29:53,160 sorry, machine that's generating electricity into the grid? 810 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:54,920 That's always the question that everyone wants to 811 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:55,420 know. 812 00:29:55,799 --> 00:29:57,640 Which which country are you talking about? It 813 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,099 depends. Different countries 814 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:01,259 are taking different approaches 815 00:30:01,559 --> 00:30:02,059 and 816 00:30:02,894 --> 00:30:03,394 and 817 00:30:04,335 --> 00:30:06,734 and taking different approaches, and they're kind of 818 00:30:06,734 --> 00:30:08,355 testing out different technology. 819 00:30:08,815 --> 00:30:10,734 So it really does depend who you're talking 820 00:30:10,734 --> 00:30:11,234 about. 821 00:30:12,815 --> 00:30:13,474 I wouldn't 822 00:30:13,934 --> 00:30:16,434 I wouldn't like, I like like, our project, 823 00:30:16,980 --> 00:30:19,380 The United Kingdom's project, our target is twenty 824 00:30:19,380 --> 00:30:19,880 forty. 825 00:30:21,539 --> 00:30:22,599 But, you know, 826 00:30:22,980 --> 00:30:25,700 our technology is different than than other than 827 00:30:25,700 --> 00:30:26,180 other, 828 00:30:26,660 --> 00:30:29,240 than other technologies in other countries. So, 829 00:30:30,019 --> 00:30:31,539 you know, I wouldn't wanna give out a 830 00:30:31,539 --> 00:30:32,039 number, 831 00:30:32,384 --> 00:30:35,285 but, our target is twenty forty, and and 832 00:30:35,505 --> 00:30:38,325 and our and our project is quite comprehensive. 833 00:30:39,904 --> 00:30:42,384 Alright. Okay. So any final message before you 834 00:30:42,384 --> 00:30:43,684 go to people listening? 835 00:30:44,869 --> 00:30:45,690 No. I I, 836 00:30:46,549 --> 00:30:48,470 I wanna thank you for the time to 837 00:30:48,470 --> 00:30:48,970 speak. 838 00:30:49,670 --> 00:30:52,150 I'm I think we should all be very 839 00:30:52,150 --> 00:30:55,289 excited about the future for the fusion industry, 840 00:30:55,670 --> 00:30:56,170 and 841 00:30:56,470 --> 00:30:58,710 those that want to, 842 00:30:59,029 --> 00:31:00,410 enter the fusion industry 843 00:31:01,205 --> 00:31:02,105 should learn 844 00:31:02,565 --> 00:31:03,865 about building things, 845 00:31:04,484 --> 00:31:05,625 about manufacturing. 846 00:31:06,884 --> 00:31:08,964 Yeah. Alright. That's a good note to end 847 00:31:08,964 --> 00:31:11,285 on. Alright. Thanks very much, Jacob. Great to 848 00:31:11,285 --> 00:31:12,724 talk to you, and good luck with your 849 00:31:12,724 --> 00:31:13,224 endeavors. 850 00:31:13,900 --> 00:31:15,660 And I know you're about there it's Friday 851 00:31:15,660 --> 00:31:17,740 afternoon we're recording this, though. You you've got 852 00:31:17,740 --> 00:31:18,940 a couple of hours before you have to 853 00:31:18,940 --> 00:31:21,339 leave. So, thanks for fitting us in. Oh, 854 00:31:21,339 --> 00:31:23,740 it's a pleasure to speak. A great pleasure. 855 00:31:23,740 --> 00:31:26,559 Thank you, thank you for making time, Martin. 856 00:31:33,775 --> 00:31:36,575 That was Jacob John of The UK's Atomic 857 00:31:36,575 --> 00:31:37,714 Energy Authority 858 00:31:38,015 --> 00:31:38,835 in conversation 859 00:31:39,134 --> 00:31:40,914 with Physics World's Matin Durrani. 860 00:31:41,380 --> 00:31:43,160 Thanks to both of them for a fascinating 861 00:31:43,299 --> 00:31:43,799 conversation. 862 00:31:44,660 --> 00:31:46,500 I'm afraid that's all the time we have 863 00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:49,299 for this episode. I'm Hamish Johnston, and our 864 00:31:49,299 --> 00:31:50,919 producer is Fred Iles. 865 00:31:51,380 --> 00:31:54,019 The music for Physics World's podcast is called 866 00:31:54,019 --> 00:31:56,804 one three seven, and it was composed and 867 00:31:56,804 --> 00:31:58,424 performed by the physicist 868 00:31:58,964 --> 00:31:59,785 Philip Moriarty. 869 00:32:00,484 --> 00:32:02,265 We'll be back again next week.