Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly
podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston.
My guest in this episode is the physicist
and entrepreneur,
Gleb Zilberstein,
who applies the principles of proteomics
to the study of historical
objects,
including manuscripts.
In 1994,
Gleb received an MSC in physics
from Russia's
Novosibirsk
State University.
Today, he's director of Israel based
Spring Style Tech Design.
The company has created a special film that
lifts proteins from the surfaces
of historical
objects.
Analysis of the proteins
provides important
information
about how the objects were used.
Here's my conversation with Gleb.
Hi, Gleb. Welcome to the podcast.
Hello, doctor Johnson. Thank you very much for
your kind invitation to your podcast.
Yeah. I mean, I have to say, Gleb,
Gleb, I'm really,
excited about talking to you about your work.
I mean, it sounds like
an amazing sort of multidisciplinary,
bit of research that you do.
And and in particular, you were recently involved
in a study of
residues that were left by readers
on a on a Renaissance
book of recipes
for medical treatments,
which sounds I mean, the book sounds fascinating
in itself.
Before we talk about the science, can you
give us a brief description of the book?
We we started
two
sixteenth century German prints, books containing hundreds of
medical and cosmetic
recipes.
The two books
are entitled,
How to Cure and Expel of
All Afflictions.
And second, Illnesses
of the Human Body and
a
useful and essential
little book of medicine
for the common man.
These, two German medical manuals
have been published by
Bartolomeus
Wachter
in Germany
Augsburg in 1531
Germany,
Bavaria,
Bavarian Kingdom.
These two works are usually
bound together into one volume.
And, we studied the two,
works bound together
in one volume,
with a book held in,
John Rylands Research Institute and Library
in University Of Manchester,
United Kingdom.
The Rylands Library volume is covered with sixteenth
and seventeenth century marginalia
that evidence
reader practitioners,
experimental
engagement
with the recipes.
This points to the availability of chemical information
from, the fingerprints
of past users
that
rift through the pages.
And, these readers
notes
include the comments of owners and the efficacy
of recipes in the,
improvised
edit recipes.
And they're handwritten notes,
on the margins.
And the this
book provide unique information on the social contextual
contextualization
of, scientific data.
It means that, we make
synchronization.
We try to make synchronization between,
what was,
written on on the book,
what was printed on the book, and what
was real
biochemical traces,
kept in the
pages of these books.
And,
this book of workers'
affiliations in the Little Book of Medicine are
exemplary among of a vast number of,
medical manuals printed in the early
sixteenth century,
providing the for common man like we are
for physicists or
for future physicists.
And, we've
reached collection of recipes for everyday use. This
means that, these books
are
for everyday
for
home
healings, for home
medicine practitioners.
This volume contain hundreds of medical and cosmetic
recipes
that were widely used,
including remedies
for brain diseases and for stones and fertility
and other severe illnesses
that
are discussed
alongside,
recipes for treatment of wounds,
skin disorders, hair loss, and cosmetics.
I see. And and so I suppose the
the idea is that people are using this
book. They're they're mixing up these recipes.
They're trying out the treatments.
And they they I suppose they're sitting in
the kitchen or in their workshop with the
book, and they're mixing things up. And
maybe they're spilling a bit of material onto
the book, or their their finger their fingers
are sticky
because they're making some sort of solve,
and that gets onto the book.
And you're,
through the magic of modern science, I suppose,
detecting those molecules. Can you explain
how you do that? What sort of techniques
do you use to,
I suppose, remove a small amount of material
from the book and determine its biochemical nature
or its chemical nature.
Well, yeah, it's a great subject.
What kind of method need to
use it for,
detection in the
determination of
residues
on antique books or manuscripts.
Because sometimes
people use
XPS
or
another type of limited analysis,
but, we choose, proteomics.
This is first
study that use proteomics to analyze Renaissance medical
recipes.
Before we use the same technique for analysis
of,
letters of, clontula and
George Orwell and other
historical personas. But this
study first time medical recipes
at period of renaissance May
ago.
Whenever sixteenth century
reader Rakshaners
handed the recipe
in the scabbled
down commons, they left behind invisible proteins on
the paper surface.
This article
develops a novel methodology for,
extraction analysis in the very important contextualization.
It means that the translation from,
life science or physical language
to historical or homogeneous language is important
thing.
Because, historians
have no clue about spectrums and
other, analytical
data.
And there was a very important to translate
for,
to humanist language from life science in the,
physical and chemical language.
At the same time, this
is a very few study to use dev
archival
archival research to construct utilization of proteomics results.
For example, to use a historical
con historical con contextualization
to better understand biochemical data.
And the real methods to,
to
get
answers to
research questions.
How,
in the our study performed in tandem
with development
of user sophisticated
and sensitive technologies,
such as, as a high resolution mass spectrometry
and the noninvasive
and the non damaged technique
known under the acronym
EVA,
EVA.
Here in,
in the study,
we use mostly
mass spectrometry
protein
mass spectrometry characterization
of peptides fragments of proteins.
And the harvest which was harvested
by
our unique Ewai technology
and the VISTA,
Ewai technology
extracted
very gently without any traces,
mobile residues
from
pages
of,
VISI renaissance book.
And the technique
which we
call as EVO technology,
it's extraction, sampling, non destructive technology for sampling
of proteins in
the as a biological
molecules like DNA, RNA,
and in this case, just proteins and peptides,
from historical objects in the
priceless documents.
No. Imagine, if you have, just one,
litter of, blood Dracula or Giacomo Casanova, nobody
give you possibility to cut part part of
this
correspondence and destroy.
And, for us was
extremely important
to keep confidence about safety for,
safety for
our historical objects.
And,
with
technology
our technology, it's
some
very
sophisticated
molecule sponge to extraction,
to selective extraction
of, some,
sort of,
analyze molecules which are needed to analyze which
are able to analyze.
And the samples
that we analyzed in laboratories
by,
in York University
by,
doctor
Samantha Grievs before she was,
Samantha Priestley.
And
we use
a mass spectrometry
after separation
in, by liquid chromatography.
It's called technique as a a liquid chromatography
tandem before mass spectrometry.
And, to make, in for to make, this,
informed decisions
regarding sampling, we also
use a multispectral
imaging,
with, acronym
MSI
conducted by Joe John Rylands Imaging Club,
a part of, Manchester University,
using
lightning
conditions that combine
wavelengths from
365
nanometers
to
940
nanometers. It's means that, they cover full,
range from UV to infrared
with long pass violet.
And, we have different selective
light filters.
Such wavelets
are beyond the human visible light range and
recover invisible information.
By this multispectral analysis,
our
team members analyze invisible
handwritten,
handwritten
notes of,
medial,
and then navigate where needed to apply
our extraction foil, our foil.
It's a it was a navigation by not
I. The decision was after
multispectral
analysis of,
pages surface.
For instance,
we had recovered strongly
fitted
handwriting
on the inside cover
of the collection of recipes.
That writing provides instructions for the use of,
for example, the wall lines, scorpion
oil against
of, oralis and the ulcers, respectively.
And,
as a exotic
for us, comp drugs company companies.
All this was a
contextualization
we've heard in the depth archival research.
For example, the study of medical and botanical
treatises,
hairballs, and the records of Augsburg
German,
Germany medical practitioners.
Gleb, I wanted to ask you specifically about
proteomics
because I think it it might be
a, a technique that some of our listeners
aren't familiar with. Is the idea that you
you sort of do your analysis and you
you identify,
a number of proteins that are,
within a sample,
And then you sort of look at that
ensemble and decide
where those proteins
may have come from. Is that is that
how it works, or have I got that
completely wrong? So as my question is, how
does it work?
No. First of all,
all,
our civilization,
built from proteins. It means that,
our body
plenty of proteins and
things which we use plenty of proteins and,
even trash around
us also,
proteins.
And the protonics, it's,
generally denotes the large scale experimental analysis
of proteins in the protons.
It means that complexes
in the as a,
in the other subcellular,
in the
comp components.
But often refers refers especially,
to protein qualification and mass spectrometer. It means
that proteomics is some technological
discipline,
which include
extraction, purification,
analysis,
and the data treatment
by bioinformatic.
And the we have different variations.
Protomix, it's a very flexible and transformable
term. And,
when we use in our study
term, protonics, we mean that extraction,
separation,
analysis,
and
translation
from
one database to another database
and bring
valuable
results for end user. For example, for historians,
need
mostly
identification
of
taxonomy of organism.
This means that it's chicken or hippo or
human being, etcetera.
And, for humanist, they usually
they require
the, determination of taxonomy,
condition environmental conditions and other things.
In our in our case,
we use
bioinformatics
for proteomics,
which called protum informatics.
And the much protumics data is collected with
the help of high throughput technologies such as
mass spectrometry
and the various of, microarray
techniques.
Using bioinformatics techniques, researchers are capable
of fast analysis and data storage.
A good place to find the list of
current programs in databases
is in where some special,
bioinformatics
resource resource portals like Xpazy
And applications, bioinformatics
based proteomics
include medicine, disease
diagnosis, biomarker identification,
the many
more. In the in our case, we use
all these
medical,
apply
protonics applications for medicine field field
for antique medicine.
This
new thing because we analyze not fresh from,
hospital for modern hospital. We use
a,
a simple from
a medieval
kitchen.
And, Gleb, I wanted to ask you about
some of the interesting and perhaps unexpected
things that you found
in this study. I mean, a few minutes
ago, you mentioned,
a hippopotamus.
I don't that that that that wasn't just
a random animal that you've pulled off the
top of your head. Am I right in
thinking that,
in this paper that you've written about,
these Renaissance
books,
the hippopotamus,
you you've have you detected
evidence that parts of a hippopotamus
were being used in medicine? Is is is
that right?
Well, first of all,
Hippopotamus,
it's, of course, it's, was
a very unexpected in the medieval Germany because,
you know,
some
even before
ice age,
hippopotamus
never were in,
even continental even.
And,
but,
you need
to
first, you need to understand that,
medieval medicine,
was a a result of
a mixture
of
recipes
from,
Persia, from China,
from Byzantium, and, from,
Arabic
countries. And, you know, it's a big it's
a it's a
this book
at, from,
Paratelsus'
period when Paratelsus' first,
non scholastic
med
medical
doc doctor,
destroy all of his,
all previous scholastic
medical
approach.
This means that
all exotic
materials like hippopotamus,
like,
lizards, like,
you know, elephants and other things,
and other animals,
you use it for,
medical comp
use from for medical comp companies
because European medicines have,
roots from,
oriental medicine
and, from Byzantine medicine. This means that,
this book
contain
a lot of translation
from,
oriental
notebooks,
from oriental book and the manus medical manuscripts.
And, of course, it was,
they recommend
that use, some
for you exotic for,
Europe,
organisms like hippopotamus.
And the
of of
and the Germany,
for example,
in the in Germany,
New Nurburg
and Augsburg
were,
famous centers of,
trade
between
West and the East.
And there are many,
different
commodities,
exotic commodities
arrived
to medieval
Germany
and, for different,
medical and, not and not only medical purposes.
No. For example
famous example, it's
a,
elephant bones.
Because before,
plastic,
era, human
people in Europe use, elephant
bones,
and,
it was not unusual.
And,
hippopotamus
also was,
probably,
was a product
commodity
of trade between
east and west. And then
I didn't see that something unusual
that,
we fall we found
the hippopotamus
traces in on these pages. And these are
still.
And Gleb, I wanted to ask you about,
you know, what you've learned, you and your
colleagues, what you've learned about how people
used this book. I mean, it sounds to
me that this
particular volume didn't sit on a dusty shelf
somewhere,
that it that people were using it
a lot,
to to treat
disease.
It
is that your conclusion about this book that
it was very well thumbed? People,
learned the concepts.
Maybe they improved on some of the the
remedies that were in the book. Is that
Did you get the feeling that people were,
using the information and even perhaps experimenting
on their own as well?
Yeah.
Well, first of all, Renaissance
was a era of,
experiments.
And, I mean that, not,
European Renaissance.
And, because the scholastic
science and the and the scholastic
particularly scholastic medicine,
it period it says in sixteenth century
already
was already finished.
And people start
experimentation, and they're,
I think that,
first first of all, this particular
book was a manual for,
common
man and, for everyday,
using. In the in Germany,
in in in in Germany,
people made the experimentation on the kitchen. I
think that, quite often because
not always, hippo
thieves thieves or some lizards,
they try to use some surrogates,
some sort of
materials to substitute of exotic materials to more
to to more achievable,
initial products and comp components.
And, this book teach us
that handwritten
notes
with,
some modification of,
modifications
of recommended printed
recipes
is also very interest very interesting because people
try to make
some sort of fine tuning
or tuning
for recipes.
And,
another thing I think,
which very surprised for us that we didn't
find
the expected,
components
because, for example, for
higher,
dime for
for for higher dime,
and, people didn't use basmat.
Basma, it's for to make of,
black
color of, hairs.
We paid a lot of attention to,
identify
famous companions,
famous from
modern books,
historical books, but we didn't find the classical,
recipes
in these pages. This means that in the
for example, for
whitening of,
hires,
use lemon juice. We didn't find lemon, and
they're also interesting.
And there are many unexpected
even in the these studies are very important,
even negative results.
Sometimes you expect you some some results,
but when you not receive these results, it's
also,
good
to,
it's also
good
good,
think to make,
some
new conclusions.
That's interesting. And, you know, I suppose when
we think about the history of science and,
you know, the Renaissance
and the enlightenment
era,
we we tend to think of, you know,
the big names.
Like, oh, I don't know, Galileo,
Copernicus,
etcetera. But it it sounds to me like
you've got a very interesting window into how
sort of everyday people were
experimenting,
with things.
And, you know, I suppose that could
possibly shed some light on how those big
scientific
ideas
that were being developed were
sort of being embraced
by
by the population. Is I mean, is that
something that that could come out of studies
of books like this?
Yeah. It's a good point about the Galileo
and the and other big names.
Because for me,
constantly,
big question
how
almost blind,
Galileo
made the,
first drawings of, moon
on the,
not perfect,
telescope
observation.
The observations by
a not perfect telescope.
For example, in our
parallel project, which we
can start started,
about
English
astronomers,
who work
in the Dutch astronomers
who work in the same period as Galileo
and what kind of,
astronomical
observation they did in the first telescopes because,
Galileo and the Dutch,
the
Dutch opticians,
work in the same time
with a very,
narrow
in in a very in a very narrow
time period for
each other. And,
for example, the Leo was
sick with
ice
disease,
and they're very interesting to check,
Galileo
telescopes from, Galileo Museum in, Florence, for example.
Or
also
check
condition
health conditions of Gallio in from personal manuscript
handwritten manuscripts of Gallio from,
Florence archive,
city archive. It's also interesting subject.
It's,
of course, it's this period of,
renaissance
was a very
intensive
experimentation,
not only in physics, but also in medicine.
Now we
use a very more very, you know,
modern term is a personalized personalized
medicine.
Personalized medicine
started the Renaissance period when each
common man,
made the experiment on the kitchen.
And and, Gleb,
you started out, your career as a physicist.
And,
you know, I think some of our listeners
may be thinking, wow. This is, you know,
fascinating work that Gleb and his colleagues
have done. If if I'm in physics now,
how could I get
involved in this sort of research? So could
could you maybe just let us know how
you went from being a physicist
to being somebody who is involved in multidisciplinary
studies of of Renaissance
books?
I graduated,
in
Novosibir State University
in Russia in
1994,
and, I graduated in
quantum optics department.
And the quantum optics,
it was a very unique department because,
showed of this department,
professor Sergey Rotyan,
bring us many historical,
anecdotes
about,
how to use,
for example,
Roman games
for a first experience of
nonlinear optics. It was very interesting because, physicists
use historical objects for
physical experiments
quite often.
And, it was, like,
initial anecdotal,
motivation.
And, later on,
I met
with, professor Pierre Giorgio Riggetti from Milano Polytechnica.
He is
a very big
name in proteomics
and biochemistry,
and he is constantly,
involved for for different,
cultural
and
historical
projects.
And, we work with a practice regulator
last twenty seven years.
And, cost and, most of our our
work is
application of proteomics
and the other biochemical
technique,
new biochemical technique for culture heritage and historical
objects.
I develop sales reps and develop new analysis
methods and materials
for biotechnology,
with
a biggest part of my
activity
for last,
thirty years.
And, I was interested to
in how to obtain additional and hidden information
from books, historical documents, and museum
objects.
These material
objects contain valuable historical and humanitarian information.
This information can be extracted from, visa,
valuable
from from visa,
objects,
from documents in the books.
I began developing new devices and technologies for
such interdisciplinary
research.
This is especially relevant
now in the age of AI,
artificial
intelligence, is a new interface between
human being,
artificial
intelligence,
AI, and computers
are required, and the all of these are
required.
We have essentially created an interface between modern
user and, an ancient book or object.
This is a new level of object digitization
historical
object digitization.
We call it, biochemical
digitization.
Using these interfaces,
we provide information about biological and chemical composition
of an object to AI, to artificial intelligence.
Currently, the digitization of,
museum objects and culture heritage sites
primarily involve
involves audio and video information,
but we provide biological and chemical
digitization.
Incident objects,
data
repositories
that can be decoded.
The data digit
digitized and used for a variety of purposes.
For example,
it's a good
source for OpenAI,
much
and other
human
AI
interfaces.
This is
object objective information about bygone errors and events.
And,
for I collaborate with
my,
with other colleagues,
professor Leonid Fruman
from,
Nocibbe University University and
professor Emmanuel Baskin,
he's
a expert in,
theory of Soviet state physics.
And,
all these colleagues
constantly
interested
in history and how to use of different
physical techniques
for
this,
you know, nonstop,
humanist
applications.
It means that,
we are not
so strange
guys
who try to analyze books
just for fun. We have some very,
clear
and
pragmatic purpose
how to make interface
between,
antique
data center. It's been it's a business
sounds it's it's book.
And the modern,
the mass
computing machines.
This means that we create,
some
new level of CSYNC
to make of new level of computing
of a biochemical
data and to make bridge
between,
humanist
and the,
exact in the life sciences.
These are
our purposes.
And, Glenn, before I let you go,
I wanted to ask you about, you know,
future work and what you're working on at
the moment. You mentioned
Galileo,
and English and Dutch
astronomers.
Is there anything else that you're looking at
at the moment? Any manuscripts or
ancient objects?
What are you doing at the moment?
No. Be before then I start
the answer to this question, I would like
to,
may
make a great thanks to professor Stefan Hans
who
was the initiator of, VIS and the who
was a,
principal investigator,
with
a, particular
study of, this renaissance book in the,
doctor
Samantha
Grievs from
York University who who made full analytical
work.
Our part
might
my colleagues and, Svetlana Zivgierstein,
who made the,
supervision in production and the creation of this
EVO technology industry was
involved as,
for interpretation of results and to professor professor
Pier Giorgio Righetti,
who was
a is a
who was a participant
in the EVA technology side.
And, I would like to answer from
our team side what kind of,
projects.
Well, first of all, Galileo,
in the
we call it we call it as
competition
between,
like, a star
glass wars, we call this project. Star wars
stars
war
stars
glass war because,
we try to understand the recipe
of glasses,
glasses and glasses for Galileo telescope, for Dutch
telescopes
and the
Dutch telescopes which use,
English astronomers to observation of,
first observation. So for in the recording of
moon,
images.
And,
also,
we're looking for to develop project for Galileo
health conditions
because Galileo was
a very
secret period of, this,
this,
first,
moon
observations.
And the same was with English
astronomer. He was sick with
some, type of cancer, and they needed to
check
health conditions for for both,
astronomers.
And the another project which we
which are closer to,
physics,
and maybe
for Kerouos, we
open project for analysis of,
logbooks of,
ships
was contingent which made the, transcontinental,
voyages
between America and
the
Europe and the
and from Europe to Asia
with
objects,
logbooks that bring,
information about,
circulation of diseases,
epidemias,
and
bring information about environmental
conditions.
And particularly, we open project for slave
ships
logbooks
because, it's also important for humanity humanities to
understand of,
what happened in the slave
ships at period of, slave trades.
And then another project which also open in
in our
which in our pipe pipeline, it's
Nikola Tesla,
documents.
It's a with
Serbian g Serbian American genius.
And so,
have a very
intrigues
in the interesting,
legacy
which needed to understand not only
from,
analysis of, text. Not only from textual analysis,
but also from biochemical analysis.
Nikola Tesla, it's also he's also part of
our
ambitious
project,
which we started from Alessandra
Volta. You know, as before,
Alessandro Volta
personal
handwritten documents and sketches from
Lombardia Science Institute
with in Milano.
And,
Nikola Tesla, I think that, one of the
interesting,
historical,
person
which
interesting to analyze.
And,
also, we continue
work with Leonardo,
Da Vinci,
Legacy.
We made before
analysis of, Leonardo,
painting, which call
Dona Nude from,
government Hermitage in Saint Petersburg.
It was a unique journey.
We receive,
access to,
take sampling
samples from full,
area
of,
Dona Nude.
And then we published article about this, and,
we found the unexpected
components
which,
didn't
mention
famous Vasari.
Vasari,
he is very famous,
renaissance artist who wrote
a book about
Renaissance
period
artists in the,
techniques of painting.
And, this direction for analysis of art objects,
it's
very
interesting because,
last period, another,
physicist,
Falco from our Arkansas.
And,
together with
famous British artist
Hockney,
they both made
a hypothesis
which call
Falco Hockney
about
using optical
devices
for
precise and very
fine,
high
high quality of painting.
And then we develop
with,
Falco Hockney
hypothesis
and,
modify
to,
use,
to modify to,
modify by using for,
photopolymerization.
And it means that Foulcore and Hockney bring,
optical part, and we provided
some, renaissance period,
photographic part. Photographic part because
we found in
Leonardo,
painting,
the reasons which easily
photopolymerized
under light,
illumination.
And,
obviously, also very provocative,
idea to,
bring,
a renaissance period
photography.
I mean,
based on the photopolymerization
through Farco,
HOKNI optical devices,
which they,
believes that,
use at the renaissance period.
And,
also, Michelangelo,
it's also
part of our activity
in, Florence
because
Michelangelo
and Bernini
later
use of, some
important
and interesting and unknown
physical,
tools and the physical,
observations
to create of,
this
this sculptures in the also
interesting
field of application for
our technology and, for
our approach.
And the
last year, we've contacted in contacted with
French
Academy of Science, and we received,
some initial interest
to check of,
French Academy of Science archives.
And we are in a period of,
in a period of
of discussions about this possibility
to make
a pro project with French Academy of Science,
to check off
famous scientists
French scientist doc documents.
And,
one of the example when we use
our technology,
in Russian Academy of Science before,
and, we made the,
analysis of, Erlang Kepler documents.
And we identify,
doc traces of alchemical elements in web pages
of
handwritten,
manuscripts
of,
Jurgen Kipler. This interesting
story with, Jurgen Kipler because,
still more
access
to digitize
even digitize
copies of this archive.
And then if you,
make a visit
to Visa archive and check, you will find
so many drawings and figures and some
unknown,
scientific instruments which which
propose
in the recorded
Ergod keeper.
This another thing, which,
close to,
physics.
And the NASA subject, Albert Einstein, I think,
because
we we
it's
a in the you know,
Jyn's production company,
Levi's,
they they have a in they have museum,
and they store of,
shirt of,
Albert Einstein. And they have
Levi's shirt,
in a museum,
shirt of
instene.
And the the it I think that it
will be interesting
project to check off, metabolites
and the platinum of valvictine stain. Many, many
different,
interesting projects. And
Yeah. That that's amazing, Gleb. I mean, you
know, who who who haven't you mentioned?
We've gone from Tesla to Michelangelo
to Einstein,
via Galileo. I mean, it it
it must be really fascinating,
the work that you do,
must be very rewarding. And, you know, thanks
so much for coming on the podcast
and, and talking to us about it. Thank
you very much, doctor Johnson. Thank you.
That was the physicist and entrepreneur
Gleb Zilberstein.
Thanks, Gleb, for a fascinating conversation.
If you'd like to learn more about the
use of proteomics
in historical research,
you can find links to some of Gleb's
papers
in the notes for this podcast.
I'm afraid that's all the time we have
for this week's episode.
I'm Hamish Johnston, and our producer is Fred
Iles.
The podcast music is called one three seven,
and it was composed and performed
by the physicist
Philip Moriarty.
We'll be back again next week.