Hello, and welcome to the Physics World Weekly
podcast.
This episode features a conversation with Dave Robertson,
who is elected
member of the UK parliament for Lichfield
in 2024.
Robertson spent eight years teaching physics after studying
the subject at the University of Liverpool.
He then worked for a teacher's union, which
inspired him to become a candidate for the
Labour Party.
He chats with Physics World's Mateen Durrani
about his transition
from the classroom to the committee room, and
how parliament
is a truly bonkers
and truly bizarre workplace.
Robertson has already sponsored three
physics related events at the Palace Of Westminster,
and he talks about his membership of various
cross party parliamentary groups,
including those on nuclear energy
and space.
Robertson has not forgotten his roots in education
and is adamant that The UK must address
its nationwide
shortage
of physics teachers.
He also urges physicists
to speak out about how they can help
address
many of the world's problems,
notably
climate change.
Here's that conversation.
So I'm delighted to be joined today by,
Dave Robertson,
MP. Welcome to the Physics World podcast, Dave.
Absolutely pleasure to be here. Thank you for
thank you for the invite. Really really looking
forward to this. It's been a it's been
in the diary for a couple of weeks,
and it's got a big red circle around
it for most of that. Oh, wonderful.
Now you've joined an elite band of people
who I think are members of parliament, and
they were also physics teachers. And according to
our records, there's also been Carol Moynihan, who
was in the Scottish National Party,
and Leila Moran, who's currently a member of
parliament for Liberal Democrats. So,
but before we come to your work as
an MP,
I've got to ask a bit about your
background.
So, originally, you studied physics. So what what
first inspired you into physics?
Like so many people I think it was
a it was a an inspiring physics teacher.
The
the gently really lit my fire in and
around the subjects was a guy called Mark
Calthway
who I don't have any contact details for.
But if you are listening, Mark, please get
in touch. It'd be a pleasure to to
catch up with you again.
And I think it is that sometimes,
like, you know, when when I was 15,
16 years old, just just having that person
who's really excited by the subjects and kind
of brought a look come a little bit
of something that that really resonated with me.
And then it became something that I absolutely
loved. And, I had the the the immense
privilege actually of kinda getting myself into that
position where, hopefully, I could be that person
for other people.
And, you then went on to study physics
at Liverpool. Is that right?
How was your time there? What did you
particularly enjoy? Which subjects did you take? Before
we get to Puddington House, absolutely loved it.
Loved every second of being, being in Liverpool.
It's a wonderful city, a wonderful university, an
absolutely brilliant department.
The if you if you ask me for
one thing as it while I was at
uni that that kinda jumped out,
in my second year,
when I was up there, they offer a
course called communicating
science,
which
I'm not gonna lie to you. It sounds
like
an easy high percentage.
So I I picked it because it was
a it was a half module and I've
got a half module slot. And I was
kinda looking at it and saying, well, let's
give it a go. It it sounds like
the type of thing where you're gonna, gonna
be able to pad your percentage a little
bit.
I absolutely loved it.
And the the it was a really small
cohort that I went through there.
And, actually, I think that's where I kind
of started to see that a lot of
what I do now, which is talking to
people and trying to take those concepts and
try and take sometimes incredibly
com complicated ideas and current processes and things
I bring them down to somebody who's a
a layman and not necessarily an expert who'll
be able to understand.
And in terms of what I do now,
absolutely crucial,
and and really, really, really important.
But in terms of kind of the hard
science,
I was nuclear physics. I absolutely loved it.
Yeah. Just really enjoyed those very, very, very
little things.
Without it, it had to be a standard
model, which was a a little too mind
bending for me.
It still is.
And then after Liverpool, you went to the
University of Birmingham to do your teacher training.
How did how did that go?
Yeah. So I had a year out in
between,
as a lot of people do. And then
I'd kinda not really got any idea what
I wanted to do
kind of post that. And I thought back
to that that time at Liverpool, not communicating
as art science course. I thought, well, actually,
let's give it a go. So I went
off into my PGC at Birmingham.
Really different experience as you'd expect. I it
it the master's level qualification,
the way that Birmingham deliver it, then offer
a is a PG dip head, I suppose,
PGCE.
But it's also incredibly,
school based.
So for that year, I think I I
think we only spent nine weeks actually at
the university the rest of the time. You're
you're out. You're in classrooms. You're you're learning
the trade hands on in addition to kind
of some of the, the
the academic underpinnings that go alongside that. So,
and that was a wonderful year. I've spent
some time in a few schools. Two in
particular where I did quite long placements, and
absolutely loved all of that as well. And
I ended up working at one of them
for coming on 10.
So what were you, what were you like
as a physics teacher? Were you were you
good at it? Did you enjoy it?
Again, loved it.
I've got quite a big personality
naturally.
And
I've got quite I'm very fortunate. I've got
quite control of my voice, so I can
do
accents and silly voices and things like that.
And I think sometimes particularly as you engage
younger people who are,
maybe from different backgrounds and things like that.
It's actually I find it that hooks the
way to go in, is absolutely brilliant or
being able to kinda play both sides of
a conversation if you're trying to do.
That was was really helpful. And then, yeah,
I always tried to, I I always tried
to make my lessons quite loud, quite, quite
engaging, quite,
full, because I think sometimes when you're talking
about particular subject like ours, there's so much
to it and it should be exciting and
it should be, wow, buzz up the top.
And, yeah, I wanted to try and bring
that across kind of in the way that
I taught as well as the, the subject
matter, obviously. And what what sort of ages
did you teach, Jay? Was it, people still
from age 11 to 18? Was it the
full range of secondary pupils? Yeah. It was
11 to 19.
You don't always get, a level or in
fact, the school I was at, most physics
teachers have. If there's a sixth form there,
they're automatically,
gonna be teaching the a level. That wasn't
the case for us.
We I was really fortunate. I thought a
a very, very, very big school at the
time. It was the biggest in the country.
So,
kind of years seven to 11, we got
15 forms in each year group, kind of,
fifteen, sixteen groups. So we we'd always have
a physics group or occasionally two in year
12,
but we were really well stocked physics teachers.
I remember at one point, we were having
a a physics group meeting,
and there were six of us sitting around
the table thinking, this is more than most
cities have.
So didn't always get the a level. Really
look forward to teaching the a level, but
primarily 11 to 19, but with the way
it is. And we wanted to try and
keep people teaching in specialism and because there
are fewer physicists than than anything else,
generally, it was key stage four,
always with a bit of key stage three
kinda sprinkled in there. And
more more often than not, some key stage
five as well.
What were the, things you most enjoyed teaching,
and what did you think was the hardest
thing to teach in physics?
There was always something about specific heat capacity.
We always knew when it came to specific
heat capacity.
Partially because,
the school I was at,
the, the the area for improvement was always
around mathematics.
And there were lots of kind of shortcuts,
that kids learn by in order to get
them across lines in math and that formula
triangle, which if I have one wish, it
would be to destroy that for the rest
of the system.
Yeah. So I think when you go to
a four term equation,
it was very difficult for kids to use
that, and you actually actually had to go
back to teaching the mathematical skill as well
as the actual science that was involved with
it.
And secondly, I think there's there was an
attempt
particularly while I was teaching. And it's a
right it's the right attempt. It was absolutely
the right approach to take to try and
drag
the coursework element rather than it being, everybody's
going to do this experiment. You're gonna write
it up. And here is gonna be this
section, this section, this section. You must write
it for your method, and there are so
many marks.
They wanted to take it basic much, much,
much more on skills. So we did, this
particular assignment called science in the news.
And that was wonderful, and it was effectively
a literature review.
And kids have to go out and get
their own research and kinda compare how that
went, and there was a a topic that
you'd be talking about. And that was fascinating
and really wonderful, and you got to teach
actually a lot of the skills that we
wanna see kids developing when they're learning sciences.
It was also quite challenging at times as
well,
just because of the nature of it. But
And did the kids you taught, were they
keen on physics, or did a lot of
them think this wasn't relevant or couldn't see
applications and thought it was just suddenly dull
and boring to get through the school year?
So there were two and a half thousand
of them on-site. I'd say they were a
range.
And and there is, and I think with
any subjects, there's gonna be there's gonna be
some kids who just
don't engage just that that not their subject.
That's not the thing that drives them.
I was really fortunate that,
I got the absolute privilege to see kids
get really, really, really engaged with the subject
and go on to study at,
I, study as a separate scientist at GCSE
into a levels and then after university. And,
just after the election, I,
and and and it it'd been a a
big emotional week for me having just won
the election.
One of the one of my ex pupils
got in touch to say that, she just
passed out that day and picked up her,
doctorate.
And she dropped a note into her thesis
saying,
thank you, mister Robertson, for being an inspiring
physics teacher.
And,
yeah, that was, that that was a a
fantastic cherry on the top of a, a
lovely cake of that week.
Fair enough. And then after teaching then, I
understand you became more involved in the teaching
union side of things. What why did you
feel that was the right career move for
you then?
So yeah. I mean, in much the same
way that I kinda I I looked at
teaching and said, well, okay. Let's give it
a go. Let's see where we're going here.
It was kind of a similar move that
that kinda pulled me across into
trade unionism.
I'd been our school's union rep.
I took over from the previous head of
physics,
who took over from the previous head of
chemistry.
Apparently, that school has a thing about union
reps being science teachers.
And
and,
I think I got to a point where
my time at that call would come to
an end.
They were making a raft of, voluntary redundancies.
I kind of knew that I was looking
for a new challenge, so I took a
voluntary redundancy there. I did supply for about
a year, and then, I was chatting to
somebody who I was working with doing some
more trade union work, and they were saying
that this job was was there. And it
was one of those where if I didn't
apply for it, I've I would have regretted
it in twenty years. And they hired me,
and the rest is history, so to speak.
Fair enough. And then so, yeah, as you
said, in 2024,
you were finally elected as member of parliament.
I mean, that's not a sort of thing
that is a career move, is it? I
mean,
you know, it must have been a bit
of a bit of a risk deciding to
sort of put yourself up for election. And
how did that all work out?
So not my first time standing for parliament.
I also stood in the same seat in
2019.
I don't talk about that result.
Lost by a lot.
But no. I I did,
again, kind of the the
day I'd kind of left left teaching and
kinda moved into the, tertiary sector,
that came with a a real work life
balance change.
So I've got a lot more free time.
And at that point, it was that kind
of again, how am I giving back to
my community?
So from there, I joined, the Labor Party,
and got increasingly more involved with what the
party was doing locally,
kinda got to a position where I was
working with people and
kinda driving some change there.
And I stood for,
election to our council in 2019.
I was very lucky to be elected onto
two councils in 2019.
Stood for parliament that December.
And then I was reelected onto the councils
in '23.
And then
2024 rolled around and,
that that one went better than 2019.
So you're you're MP for Lichfield. For people
who don't know Lichfield, how would you describe
that constituency?
So it's the best constituency in the country.
And, yes, so we are a kind of
semi rural city. We're all semi rural city,
in
the kind of Northern Midlands.
It's going south into Staffordshire, 20 miles north
to Birmingham.
I've really fortunate that I've got, the city
of Lichfield itself, which is thirty, thirty five
thousand people living in it, four miles up
the road. I've got a the town of
Burnwood, which again, thirty, thirty five thousand people
living in it, and then,
a wonderful,
rural area, Catonian Villages. We do, again, a
very similar sized population in it. So I
get to see,
you know, city, town, and village all in
one constituency in it. It's a lot of
fun.
Yeah. So I gotta ask you, Dave. I
mean, what what is it like being in
parliament? I mean, I can imagine nothing sort
of prepares you for it. It's not a
sort of nine to five job. It's must
be all consuming. I mean, what what what
do you do all day?
Yeah. So,
quite a lot of people will ask me
is, oh, was it what you're expecting?
And when you look at the kind of
electoral history of the of the seat that
that I represent now,
it was a big change for, for the
for the party to win that.
So I haven't spent much time thinking about
what day
election day plus one would look like.
What does happen is when you when you,
when you win the election, they give you
this envelope. Now I was expecting an envelope,
but I was expecting it to be a
big a four one. You know, the ones
that fold in the middle. I mean, it's
like I was expecting, like, a proper thick
one. And it was what they gave me
was clearly one sheet of a four paper
folded in half inside an envelope.
And it was, like, half four in the
morning. I'd had no sleep. I've been on
my feet since 7AM or something stupid. And
I was just like, I'm not I'm not
opening this now. I'm gonna take it home.
I'm gonna open in the morning when I
have a few hours sleep. Open it up
and it was basically, congratulations. Phone this phone
number. I
had to call the phone number and and
they were,
oh, when are you coming down to parliament?
I thought you were telling me that. And
we went through this thing and eventually kinda
got myself booked down. We went down on
a Sunday after the election. And I really
remember walking into Westminster Hall for the first
time with the person who was showing me
around saying, and the the way that she
asked the question was with
my voice. When was the last time you
were in parliament?
Literally, just as I put my hand on
the door, I was like, I've never been
in this building.
Really? And it was literally the fit the
first time I'd I'd ever been on the
estate at all was was as a member,
and it is
nothing like I expected. I think if if
I had expected stuff, it wouldn't have been
like that because it is a
truly bonkers and truly bizarre,
workplace.
Because it is so unique and so different
to everything and,
that comes with its own frustrations at times,
but it also
is an absolute privilege to be able to,
to be involved with and,
yeah, law law may continue.
So what do you have your own office
there? I mean, does there do you how
how many days a week would you say
you're you're in parliament and how many sort
of out and about?
So that very much depends on when we're
sitting.
So
when parliament's in recess, obviously, we're up in
constituency and they were all trying to actually
speak to people who elect us. And that's
quite, quite an important part of the job.
Generally, when the house is sitting, we'll be
there Mondays through Thursdays.
So it tends to be during the week
that I try to do four days in
constituency a week and four days in parliament
a week,
which doesn't quite add up. But I can
I can split my Mondays so I can
just about make it work sometimes?
And, I suppose, you know, the question I
wanted to ask you, Dave, as as an
MP, what what would you say your priorities
are? I mean, we met when we were
at the Institute of Physics Business Awards that
you helped to sponsor, where we had some
really great
high-tech companies that you, provided the sponsorship for
the event on the on the terrace there.
That was wonderful. Is that is science and
technology a passion for you that you want
to sort of get involved in?
Yes. So,
all the things I've I've said literally since
day one, of the campaign actually before before
even the election is,
I'm really fortunate that I get to represent
the area I grew up.
So my number one focus is very much
what's going on in my constituency, what's going
on in my constituency.
I think that will always be the case.
But within that, you know, I'm I'm very
fortunate that I've got the background that I
have and I've got the training that I
have. I'm one of actually a very small
number of,
parliamentarians
who've got a science background, a physics background.
And I think particularly if we're looking at
some of the real advances that are going
on, that, that event that the IOP sponsored
was absolutely wonderful in seeing some of the
real cutting edge science,
that was that that was there and just
on showing some of the,
just some of the companies that were there
were
astonishing.
And actually being able to kind of use
that real,
use that fortune that
that that background that I've got and be
able to bring that to the fore and
make sure the parliamentarians have got access to
organizations like the Institute of Physics. So I
know I sponsored the,
the International Year of Quantum event as well.
So we had a,
a,
an exhibition up there so that actually every
member of parliament and that commons landlords
would have been able to walk past and
see that it was the International Year of
Quantum. And what that means and some of
the advances that are coming along with constant,
science and constant sensors and seeing actually the
the kind of the the next,
industrial revolution is probably gonna be AI. The
one after that is probably gonna be quantum,
but it's already starting.
And we're so fortunate in The UK that
we are on the very cutting edge of
that,
and being able to bring that to parliament
and being able to bring that to where
the decision makers were and hopefully begin those
conversations so that where we see The UK
is in a real leadership position in the
world of quantum.
And to be able to drive that forward
to is something that I really enjoy. And,
yeah, I'll
be, hopefully keeping the, keeping the hammer down
on that for the next three years and
beyond.
I mean, as a former physics teacher, do
you think I mean, is that high on
the radar of
MPs? The idea the importance of getting more
physics teachers is, you know, something very important
for the future of the subject. Is that
something that many parliamentarians
think about? And how can we get that
issue on the radar for them?
So again, there's 650 of us. So there's
certainly there's a group of us who are
very concerned about making sure that we have
the right teachers in the right place. There's
a, there's an education team, the shadow education
team, and education spokespeople for the other parties
who are really interested in making sure that
we can deliver the best possible future for
for kids in The UK.
Whether every single one of the 650
of us has thoughts about the importance of
getting more physic features in the classroom,
probably not, if I'm honest,
because there's it's such a big job and
there's so much that that comes at us
from our ways. But one of the things
that is actually the kind of responsibility
of myself and,
the other MPs who've got this background and
who've got that knowledge about the importance of
getting the right people in the right classrooms
to be that spark, to be that thing
that that brings somebody forwards and might
unearth the next Brian Cox or the next
Paul Dirac or the next Nigel Newton or
who whoever it is.
Actually making sure that that's there's something that's
really important to me. I know there's a
wealth of,
MPs out there who value that from a
kind of subject specific point of view, but
there's also a huge number of us. You
know, my background's in teaching as much as
it is in physics, and there's a huge
amount of us who are worried
about teacher recruitment and teacher retention particularly
anyway. And there's a big kind of overlap
sometimes between
kind of different thought processes, but here or
there or both or neither.
I was gonna say you mentioned some of
the other scientists in parliament. Do do you
all gang together? Do you know many of
them? Are you some old buddies across party?
So I think it's a big yes or
no.
And
there are
there again, there's there's often a lot going
on, and it's quite interesting actually that sometimes
you do see the same people at the
same events and you start to get to
know them. There's some people,
Martin Wigley from the, Liberal Democrats on OS.
There are lots of events on the,
an officer on one of the,
other APPG with him where he chairs it.
Sam Carling springs to mind. I had the
pleasure of meeting, Lord Sharma, Alok Sharma at
the, IOP event, who, again, saw a real
background in physics. He's really interested in that.
We're interested in Joe Sun from.
So there's a group of us. Whether I've
got an exhausted list exhaustive list, no.
But there's also this kind of there there
are the old party parliamentary groups where a
lot of us are involved in the same
thing with the
science innovate innovate science innovation and technology,
select committee, which I did have a go
at trying to get on a couple of
weeks couple of months back. Didn't quite get
over the line on that one.
But, yeah, there's group there's groups of us
there, and,
I think sometimes rather than having that kind
of there's a big group of us and
we all sit in this corner, the idea
that we've all got a kind of knowledge
of the other the other MPs who are
interested in science, physics, and chemistry, and whatever
in quantum or whatever part of it there
is. Actually, it's all kind of having those
tentacles that spread out between ourselves and into
other groups and parties and other sections of
parliament is really helpful.
And I've looked online. It says you're a
member of various parliamentary groups, including fusion,
space, and football. Is that right?
It's quite a long list, actually.
A list of groups to limit. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, there's some of those groups,
the the all party groups that I'm in,
I mean, because this is specific constituency focus.
I do allow myself a couple where it's
where I've got a bit of an interest.
And sometimes there's a significant overlap between those
two. But again, actually, the groups on,
fusion, there's one on quantum and photonics that
I'm involved with.
I'm actually looking to try and set another
couple off in the new year, specifically in
the in the realm of quantum,
because I think there's there's a lot that
can be done there. And sometimes it is
that way to
kind of build that
critical map of MPs or parliamentarians
including the lords who are really interested in
a subject who wanna drive an agenda forward.
They wanna be able to create a report
that can be picked up in industry or
in parliament or elsewhere.
Sorry. I've gotta ask you about the football.
Are you a player or supporter or just
somebody watches?
So,
the nickname fifty p Foot Robertson would have
been very appropriate for me.
There is a limit on what my enthusiasm
would ever get me with football.
So yeah. Not not not a player, not
for many, many, many years. But,
yeah. Once upon a time, I think all
the kids in my fella sales are connoisseur.
And I think these days, I'll just go
as far as supporter.
Alright. And, I mean, in terms of next
steps, I mean, you know, political career can,
you know, last forever. It can not last
not very long. I mean, it's pretty precarious.
I mean, where where do you see go
yourself going next? Can you predict it? Do
you have ambitions?
So I think anybody who wants to make
massive predictions about what's gonna happen in their
political career,
either knows a lot more than me or
they're,
not quite switched. I was
and I think for me, I am incredibly
fortunate that I've got the opportunity that I've
got at the moment. I'm on a very
small journey. I'm on a 08/2012.
So my focus will remain in my constituency.
If I'm honest, I don't have the aspirations
to be working in a ministry.
I think the job that I've got is
just about the most wonderful one in the
world. And I wanna keep keep doing that
because there's there's
wonderful things that I'm able to do for
my community
and to be able to go out there
and fight for that every day and to
be able to do,
again, some of the
bit of quantum stuff over here, a bit
of physics stuff over here, a bit of
football over there, a bit of,
support in whatever the community is over there,
being able to spread myself around for the
benefit of the community, something I'm really enjoying
at the minute. So,
yeah, pretty pretty comfortable with life on the
backbenchers. I suppose there's always that, you can
always go back into teaching if it doesn't
if it doesn't work out. Not that I
wish it doesn't.
I mean, yeah, very very much my focus
is on on delivery for my community. But,
yeah, rumor has it we could do with
a few more physics teachers.
Alright.
And before we finish, Dave, any final message
or thought for the physics community? Would you
encourage other people to follow in your footsteps?
Absolutely. I think,
if if we're talking about the physics community,
there's so much that actually our community and
our subject has got to offer to the
country
and to the world. And there's there's real
innovation. There's real creativity.
There's real knowledge actually about sort of the
kind of fundamental stuff that affects us all.
We've not mentioned climate change yet today. I
feel I would be stupid to not mention
that. It is the biggest,
issue facing,
the world at the moment. And actually, a
lot of the solutions are gonna come from
the physical
come from
the the physics world, first to speak.
I think that me might get a plug
for you
brief publication.
And so, yeah, I think the more that
we can do to get more physicists engaged
with more decision makers,
can only can only be good for not
only the future of the economy, for the
future of innovation, create creativity,
but ultimately for the future of the planet.
That's very positive. I forgot to ask you
support. You've got to tell me
that. So once upon a time, I would
have said Liverpool,
football club.
But I've got to say actually, since we
really get involved with local politics, I'm down
at my, local semi pro teams as often
as I can. So it's down in Littlefield,
the city are both wonderful setups, and it's
just really nice to be able to go
down there where it's, it it turn up
on the day and after you get ticket
seven months in advance, you can have a
pint and watch the game, and it's,
it's a lot of fun. So, yeah, by
all means, also, physics community, get out there
and talk to decision makers, but get out
and support your local selling proteins as well.
Alright. Thanks so much, David. It's been great
to have you on the on the podcast.
Thank you. That's brilliant. Thank you very much
for your time.
That was the physicist and MP Dave Robertson
in conversation with Physics World's Mateen Jurani.
Thanks to both of them.
I'm afraid that's all the time we have
for this episode.
I'm Hamish Johnston, and our producer is Fred
Iles.
The theme music for this podcast is called
one three seven,
and it was composed and performed
by the physicist
Philip Moriarty.
We'll be back again next week.