1 00:00:07,839 --> 00:00:10,800 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly 2 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:12,820 podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston. 3 00:00:13,375 --> 00:00:16,495 In this episode, I'm in conversation with Luke 4 00:00:16,495 --> 00:00:16,995 Cox, 5 00:00:17,454 --> 00:00:18,355 who is cofounder 6 00:00:18,655 --> 00:00:19,875 and chief executive 7 00:00:20,335 --> 00:00:22,274 of UK based Impulsonics. 8 00:00:23,375 --> 00:00:25,855 The company spun out of the University of 9 00:00:25,855 --> 00:00:28,355 Bristol in 2023 10 00:00:28,710 --> 00:00:29,449 to commercialize 11 00:00:29,910 --> 00:00:30,890 an ultrasonic 12 00:00:31,349 --> 00:00:31,849 technology 13 00:00:32,469 --> 00:00:35,129 that solves the unsticking problem, 14 00:00:35,909 --> 00:00:37,129 which makes it difficult 15 00:00:37,509 --> 00:00:40,489 to cultivate living cells for biological 16 00:00:40,949 --> 00:00:41,449 research. 17 00:00:41,909 --> 00:00:45,234 But first, an invitation to join us for 18 00:00:45,234 --> 00:00:48,515 Physics World Live, which is a series of 19 00:00:48,515 --> 00:00:49,975 live panel discussions 20 00:00:50,515 --> 00:00:52,614 featuring experts from academia 21 00:00:53,074 --> 00:00:53,894 and industry. 22 00:00:54,909 --> 00:00:55,729 Quantum metrology 23 00:00:56,109 --> 00:00:58,530 is our topic on the April 30, 24 00:00:58,989 --> 00:01:00,530 and we will be exploring 25 00:01:00,909 --> 00:01:03,489 medical physics on the July 1. 26 00:01:04,349 --> 00:01:06,750 Later in the year, we will be talking 27 00:01:06,750 --> 00:01:07,215 about 28 00:01:07,614 --> 00:01:08,194 the commercialization 29 00:01:09,134 --> 00:01:10,594 of nuclear fusion. 30 00:01:11,614 --> 00:01:13,774 You can register for these events on the 31 00:01:13,774 --> 00:01:15,075 Physics World website. 32 00:01:15,774 --> 00:01:18,754 Just click on the Physics World live tab 33 00:01:18,974 --> 00:01:20,834 at the top of any page. 34 00:01:21,900 --> 00:01:23,439 Now, here's that conversation 35 00:01:23,980 --> 00:01:26,319 with Luke Cox of Impulsonics. 36 00:01:34,984 --> 00:01:36,924 Hi, Luke. Welcome to the podcast. 37 00:01:37,784 --> 00:01:39,564 Hi, Hamish. Pleasure to be here. 38 00:01:39,944 --> 00:01:42,364 So first things first, Luke. Can you describe 39 00:01:42,424 --> 00:01:43,244 the unsticking 40 00:01:43,545 --> 00:01:44,844 problem that Impulsonics 41 00:01:45,305 --> 00:01:45,805 addresses? 42 00:01:47,260 --> 00:01:49,920 Yes. Of course. So when you're growing 43 00:01:50,219 --> 00:01:53,359 biological cells in the body, most of them 44 00:01:53,659 --> 00:01:56,379 stick to each other in in various ways. 45 00:01:56,379 --> 00:01:57,739 You know, if you think about your any 46 00:01:57,739 --> 00:01:59,204 part of your body, it's made up of 47 00:01:59,444 --> 00:02:01,125 thousands or millions of different cells, and all 48 00:02:01,125 --> 00:02:02,424 of them stick to each other. 49 00:02:02,805 --> 00:02:04,724 Typically, when we try and grow them in 50 00:02:04,724 --> 00:02:05,685 petri dishes, 51 00:02:06,005 --> 00:02:07,704 for testing and drug discovery, 52 00:02:08,324 --> 00:02:10,985 or if you're building regenerative medicines, for example, 53 00:02:11,599 --> 00:02:14,159 then you they still like to stick to 54 00:02:14,159 --> 00:02:16,400 each other. Cells don't really like being alone, 55 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,979 and they don't like growing in unfamiliar environments. 56 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,020 So, when we are growing cells 57 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,044 in a petri dish, they will tend to 58 00:02:25,044 --> 00:02:26,965 stick to plastic, and most plastics tend to 59 00:02:26,965 --> 00:02:29,705 have, special coatings that enable them to 60 00:02:32,324 --> 00:02:34,805 those plastics have special coatings which allow cells 61 00:02:34,805 --> 00:02:36,564 to bond to them and may also bond 62 00:02:36,564 --> 00:02:37,465 to each other. 63 00:02:37,879 --> 00:02:38,620 But, actually, 64 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,080 what happens with these cells is every few 65 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,719 days, they're going to fill their containers, so 66 00:02:43,719 --> 00:02:46,120 they will go from filling anywhere between sort 67 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:47,819 of, like, 20 to 50% 68 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,599 up to 80 to 90% of the surface 69 00:02:50,599 --> 00:02:53,099 area of these black containers, and they then 70 00:02:54,094 --> 00:02:55,715 and they then need to be unstuck 71 00:02:56,335 --> 00:02:57,155 from those, 72 00:02:57,775 --> 00:02:59,775 containers so that it can be moved into 73 00:02:59,775 --> 00:03:01,375 a new one. And although that sounds like 74 00:03:01,375 --> 00:03:03,875 a relatively simple problem, it's actually quite a 75 00:03:04,254 --> 00:03:07,215 complex process. So the current approach is to 76 00:03:07,215 --> 00:03:09,860 use some chemicals that sort of, like, melt 77 00:03:09,860 --> 00:03:12,580 off the bonds between the cells and each 78 00:03:12,580 --> 00:03:14,039 other and the plastic container. 79 00:03:14,340 --> 00:03:16,259 But those chemicals, as you might imagine, are 80 00:03:16,259 --> 00:03:18,020 not very good for the cells, so they 81 00:03:18,020 --> 00:03:20,020 need to then be centrifuged down and to 82 00:03:20,020 --> 00:03:21,620 have what liquid to move and have new 83 00:03:21,620 --> 00:03:24,245 things added. And all that means is that 84 00:03:24,245 --> 00:03:26,165 when you stack all of those processes back 85 00:03:26,165 --> 00:03:27,705 to back, you end up with a very 86 00:03:28,085 --> 00:03:31,844 complicated process that's quite user dependent, or if 87 00:03:31,844 --> 00:03:33,705 you want to automate it, requires 88 00:03:34,165 --> 00:03:36,405 a really large machine with actually lots of 89 00:03:36,405 --> 00:03:39,430 interconnected parts all have to work perfectly in 90 00:03:39,430 --> 00:03:40,729 unison every time. 91 00:03:42,150 --> 00:03:44,550 I see. And is there a worry that, 92 00:03:44,550 --> 00:03:46,569 you know, when you're doing all this stuff, 93 00:03:46,949 --> 00:03:47,770 you're somehow, 94 00:03:48,629 --> 00:03:51,510 altering the cells or damaging them, and that 95 00:03:51,510 --> 00:03:52,409 could ultimately 96 00:03:53,189 --> 00:03:53,689 impact 97 00:03:54,334 --> 00:03:56,174 how you're using the cells and, you know, 98 00:03:56,174 --> 00:03:58,914 maybe the research that's being done with them. 99 00:03:59,694 --> 00:04:02,414 Yes. Absolutely. So trypsin is the most common 100 00:04:02,414 --> 00:04:03,555 chemical that's used 101 00:04:03,854 --> 00:04:05,954 for unsticking these kinds of cells, 102 00:04:06,659 --> 00:04:08,840 and that was first used for, 103 00:04:09,539 --> 00:04:10,759 cell subculturing 104 00:04:11,219 --> 00:04:12,500 in 1916, 105 00:04:12,500 --> 00:04:14,840 and it's actually an enzyme from the body. 106 00:04:15,139 --> 00:04:16,360 But the way that 107 00:04:17,060 --> 00:04:19,240 it interacts with these cells is to 108 00:04:19,855 --> 00:04:22,194 literally sort of, like, cut these bonds, cleaving 109 00:04:22,254 --> 00:04:24,975 is what it's called. But these surface receptors 110 00:04:24,975 --> 00:04:27,314 are how cells interact with basically 111 00:04:27,615 --> 00:04:30,175 every other part of the body. So 60% 112 00:04:30,175 --> 00:04:31,634 of clinical drugs interact 113 00:04:32,069 --> 00:04:33,849 with these surface markers. 114 00:04:34,470 --> 00:04:35,610 And when you're 115 00:04:36,149 --> 00:04:38,169 actually like, they regulate things like 116 00:04:38,629 --> 00:04:41,829 how does a cell die. So if you're 117 00:04:41,829 --> 00:04:43,589 using a drug on it, it could make 118 00:04:43,589 --> 00:04:45,110 a cell more likely to die because you've 119 00:04:45,110 --> 00:04:45,849 used trystin. 120 00:04:46,355 --> 00:04:48,834 Ironically, for other surface markers, because they're not 121 00:04:48,834 --> 00:04:50,355 all affected evenly, it could make it less 122 00:04:50,355 --> 00:04:52,035 likely to die. So if you're testing an 123 00:04:52,035 --> 00:04:55,095 anti cancer drug, it might underestimate the efficacy 124 00:04:55,154 --> 00:04:55,975 of your drug, 125 00:04:56,514 --> 00:04:59,634 or it could overestimate the toxicity effects or 126 00:04:59,634 --> 00:05:01,415 underestimate the toxicity effects. 127 00:05:01,789 --> 00:05:03,069 So you've got all those things. And then 128 00:05:03,069 --> 00:05:05,250 when it comes to things like regenerative medicines, 129 00:05:05,709 --> 00:05:07,250 cells obviously use these surface 130 00:05:07,709 --> 00:05:09,789 proteins to be able to interact with our 131 00:05:09,789 --> 00:05:12,430 environment. So that means modulating the immune system, 132 00:05:12,430 --> 00:05:13,754 which is a lot of what 133 00:05:14,634 --> 00:05:16,095 regenerative medicines do, 134 00:05:16,395 --> 00:05:18,955 or actually navigating within the body, so moving 135 00:05:18,955 --> 00:05:20,975 to a place where they are needed most. 136 00:05:21,435 --> 00:05:22,415 So there's definitely 137 00:05:23,915 --> 00:05:25,694 variable effects which are generated 138 00:05:26,009 --> 00:05:26,750 from these, 139 00:05:27,689 --> 00:05:29,069 from a use of this enzyme, 140 00:05:29,449 --> 00:05:32,009 and we know we're disinfecting this. You know, 141 00:05:32,009 --> 00:05:34,569 if you are lucky, it won't have any 142 00:05:34,569 --> 00:05:36,490 impact at all, but if you are unlucky, 143 00:05:36,490 --> 00:05:38,490 it's gonna have a huge impact, and it's 144 00:05:38,490 --> 00:05:41,435 very difficult to quantify that impact when it's 145 00:05:41,435 --> 00:05:42,654 your standard technique. 146 00:05:43,914 --> 00:05:45,914 I see. And and so let let me 147 00:05:46,555 --> 00:05:47,055 so 148 00:05:47,675 --> 00:05:50,714 where does ultrasound or sound come into this? 149 00:05:50,714 --> 00:05:52,555 I mean, when I first heard about the 150 00:05:52,555 --> 00:05:55,139 company, I sort of naively thought, well, yeah. 151 00:05:55,139 --> 00:05:57,620 They just sort of vibrate those cells, and 152 00:05:57,620 --> 00:05:58,520 at some point, 153 00:05:59,060 --> 00:06:01,460 they come unstuck. I mean, is it as 154 00:06:01,460 --> 00:06:04,100 simple as that, or is it much more 155 00:06:04,100 --> 00:06:04,600 complicated? 156 00:06:05,460 --> 00:06:07,779 I wish it was that simple, although maybe 157 00:06:07,779 --> 00:06:09,400 someone would have done it before then. 158 00:06:10,314 --> 00:06:13,194 Yeah. So we do use ultrasound, and to 159 00:06:13,194 --> 00:06:15,435 some extent, yeah, I'm sure you readers your 160 00:06:15,435 --> 00:06:17,754 listeners will be familiar with the concept that 161 00:06:17,754 --> 00:06:19,514 sound waves exert a force. That's how it 162 00:06:19,514 --> 00:06:21,915 vibrates the eardrum so that you can actually 163 00:06:21,915 --> 00:06:24,590 hear things, what your brain processes are sounds. 164 00:06:24,970 --> 00:06:26,970 What we do is carefully control the sound 165 00:06:26,970 --> 00:06:28,650 waves, so we sort of, like, create regions 166 00:06:28,650 --> 00:06:30,590 of controlled high and low pressure. 167 00:06:31,050 --> 00:06:33,210 And the real power that we have is 168 00:06:33,210 --> 00:06:35,290 we are exerting a very direct force on 169 00:06:35,290 --> 00:06:37,214 these cells. So we combine it with some 170 00:06:37,214 --> 00:06:39,454 sort of, like, light chemical cues that sort 171 00:06:39,454 --> 00:06:40,975 of encourage the cells to be a little 172 00:06:40,975 --> 00:06:41,714 less sticky. 173 00:06:42,735 --> 00:06:45,475 But the current approaches for it are usually 174 00:06:46,495 --> 00:06:49,134 either you get automated shaker plates, which are 175 00:06:49,134 --> 00:06:50,975 rarely used in manual processes, but they sort 176 00:06:50,975 --> 00:06:52,860 of vibrate the cells around. But there, what 177 00:06:52,860 --> 00:06:55,660 you're doing is applying a very indirect force 178 00:06:55,660 --> 00:06:56,480 to the cells. 179 00:06:58,060 --> 00:06:58,560 With 180 00:06:59,580 --> 00:07:01,899 actual manual processes, often the, 181 00:07:02,699 --> 00:07:04,379 the scientists have been known to sort of, 182 00:07:04,379 --> 00:07:06,254 like, drum their fingers on the bottom of 183 00:07:06,254 --> 00:07:07,775 a plate all the way through to sort 184 00:07:07,775 --> 00:07:10,115 of literally whacking them on the table. 185 00:07:10,814 --> 00:07:13,375 So there's, yeah, there's a real variability there, 186 00:07:13,375 --> 00:07:16,115 and it depends on the cell type and, 187 00:07:17,215 --> 00:07:18,895 and the scientists as well. So you get 188 00:07:18,895 --> 00:07:20,459 you get a lot of variability. So 189 00:07:21,419 --> 00:07:22,959 our process is sort of, like, 190 00:07:23,500 --> 00:07:25,519 enabling people to have a much more controlled 191 00:07:25,740 --> 00:07:28,300 application of force. It's applying that force much 192 00:07:28,300 --> 00:07:29,039 more directly 193 00:07:29,339 --> 00:07:30,860 in a way that just moving the whole 194 00:07:30,860 --> 00:07:32,079 system around doesn't. 195 00:07:33,259 --> 00:07:33,759 And, 196 00:07:35,224 --> 00:07:37,464 yeah, enables you to sort of, like, apply 197 00:07:37,464 --> 00:07:38,204 that directly. 198 00:07:39,544 --> 00:07:41,625 I see. And so so when you talk 199 00:07:41,625 --> 00:07:43,784 about how you apply the ultrasound, are you 200 00:07:43,865 --> 00:07:45,324 do you use, like, an array 201 00:07:45,944 --> 00:07:46,444 of 202 00:07:46,904 --> 00:07:50,550 ultrasound transducers and, you know, you by manipulating 203 00:07:51,169 --> 00:07:53,569 the signal that goes into that array, you 204 00:07:53,569 --> 00:07:55,889 can focus the ultrasound, put it where you 205 00:07:55,889 --> 00:07:56,389 want. 206 00:07:56,689 --> 00:07:59,189 Is that is that basically how it works? 207 00:07:59,889 --> 00:08:02,550 Yeah. Exactly. So we've got over hundreds ultrasound 208 00:08:02,689 --> 00:08:03,189 speakers, 209 00:08:03,735 --> 00:08:05,194 below these plates, 210 00:08:05,735 --> 00:08:07,735 that they grow cells on. And, yes, as 211 00:08:07,735 --> 00:08:09,254 you say, we're able to sort of, like, 212 00:08:09,254 --> 00:08:11,735 focus the ultrasound and control it how we 213 00:08:11,735 --> 00:08:12,634 want using, 214 00:08:13,495 --> 00:08:14,714 well, basically mathematics, 215 00:08:15,175 --> 00:08:17,339 and that allows you to if you think 216 00:08:17,339 --> 00:08:19,180 about sort of like you can imagine a 217 00:08:19,180 --> 00:08:20,159 sort of a curved 218 00:08:20,620 --> 00:08:22,379 speaker would focus all its sound at one 219 00:08:22,379 --> 00:08:24,939 point, we can achieve a very similar effect 220 00:08:24,939 --> 00:08:26,879 just by applying electronic delays. 221 00:08:27,579 --> 00:08:29,019 So I often think of it as sort 222 00:08:29,019 --> 00:08:31,134 of surround sound for cells. If you've ever 223 00:08:31,134 --> 00:08:31,634 experienced 224 00:08:32,575 --> 00:08:34,174 music where you get a plane that feels 225 00:08:34,174 --> 00:08:35,695 like it's going in one ear and coming 226 00:08:35,695 --> 00:08:38,254 out the other, it's a similar principle just 227 00:08:38,254 --> 00:08:39,554 with a lot more speakers. 228 00:08:40,575 --> 00:08:41,875 I see. And, 229 00:08:42,495 --> 00:08:45,855 I mean, again, just naively, you know, knowing 230 00:08:45,855 --> 00:08:47,709 that ultrasound is used, 231 00:08:48,570 --> 00:08:50,750 in medical applications, you know, indeed, 232 00:08:51,529 --> 00:08:54,269 pregnant women will have, ultrasound 233 00:08:55,129 --> 00:08:55,629 scans. 234 00:08:56,009 --> 00:08:58,970 That it's it's pretty easy on cells. It's 235 00:08:58,970 --> 00:09:00,829 it's not going to damage 236 00:09:01,315 --> 00:09:02,995 the cells in the same way as the 237 00:09:02,995 --> 00:09:03,894 as the chemicals? 238 00:09:05,075 --> 00:09:07,634 Yeah. So the regime in which we work 239 00:09:07,634 --> 00:09:10,035 is very safe for cells, and we've tested 240 00:09:10,035 --> 00:09:11,875 that extensively. So we've done a lot of 241 00:09:11,875 --> 00:09:13,875 tests to check that the cells are alive 242 00:09:13,875 --> 00:09:14,855 and they're happy, 243 00:09:15,230 --> 00:09:17,790 and they're, you know, not changing their health 244 00:09:17,790 --> 00:09:19,490 or not changing the way that they reproduce 245 00:09:19,550 --> 00:09:20,450 in any way. 246 00:09:20,990 --> 00:09:22,769 Ultrasound is a very broad region, 247 00:09:23,230 --> 00:09:24,610 so there are 248 00:09:25,070 --> 00:09:28,785 ultrasonic systems, for example, ultrasonic baths or systems 249 00:09:28,785 --> 00:09:30,705 which you use for lysing cells, which is 250 00:09:30,705 --> 00:09:33,184 basically bursting cells. So cells obviously have a 251 00:09:33,184 --> 00:09:34,785 lot of things inside, and you want to 252 00:09:34,785 --> 00:09:35,845 measure those sometimes. 253 00:09:36,384 --> 00:09:38,865 But, you know, ultrasound is such a a 254 00:09:38,865 --> 00:09:41,024 broad definition. If you think about audible sound, 255 00:09:41,024 --> 00:09:42,544 that can be everything from, you know, a 256 00:09:42,544 --> 00:09:43,549 child's little little 257 00:09:44,009 --> 00:09:45,709 piano up to a jet 258 00:09:46,089 --> 00:09:46,649 engine is all technically audible sounds, but we 259 00:09:46,649 --> 00:09:48,250 wouldn't say that they have the same health 260 00:09:48,250 --> 00:09:48,750 effects. 261 00:09:50,250 --> 00:09:52,490 I see. Okay. And and can we talk 262 00:09:52,490 --> 00:09:52,730 a bit, 263 00:09:53,850 --> 00:09:54,769 about the, 264 00:09:55,209 --> 00:09:56,429 I suppose, commercializing 265 00:09:57,450 --> 00:09:58,350 this idea. 266 00:09:58,684 --> 00:10:00,625 So how how is, 267 00:10:01,964 --> 00:10:04,924 how is this way of of, of freeing 268 00:10:04,924 --> 00:10:05,424 cells, 269 00:10:06,365 --> 00:10:09,884 being integrated into a commercially available system? You 270 00:10:09,884 --> 00:10:11,824 know, what I suppose, what's your offer, 271 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:13,940 commercial offer? 272 00:10:15,039 --> 00:10:17,919 So the current product that we are developing 273 00:10:17,919 --> 00:10:20,019 at the moment is designed to sit inside 274 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:20,740 existing 275 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:22,100 automation systems. 276 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:23,220 So 277 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:24,884 you there are lots 278 00:10:25,365 --> 00:10:27,445 in the wild at the moment of what 279 00:10:27,445 --> 00:10:29,205 are known as the industry as liquid handling 280 00:10:29,205 --> 00:10:30,965 robots. You can picture it just as a 281 00:10:30,965 --> 00:10:32,965 pipetting robot. If you think of a a 282 00:10:32,965 --> 00:10:34,884 three d printer but with a pipette instead 283 00:10:34,884 --> 00:10:37,384 of an extrusion head, you get the idea 284 00:10:37,445 --> 00:10:39,605 of how they work and roughly what they 285 00:10:39,605 --> 00:10:42,009 look like. So our first product is designed 286 00:10:42,070 --> 00:10:44,629 to integrate into one of these systems because 287 00:10:44,629 --> 00:10:45,370 once you've 288 00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:47,829 got your cells unstuck, what you are going 289 00:10:47,829 --> 00:10:49,190 to want to do is to be able 290 00:10:49,190 --> 00:10:51,509 to actually move them into a new plate, 291 00:10:51,509 --> 00:10:54,230 and we're not, in the first instance, interested 292 00:10:54,230 --> 00:10:54,945 in trying to 293 00:10:55,825 --> 00:10:57,144 reinvent the wheel when there were a lot 294 00:10:57,144 --> 00:10:58,565 of these systems out there. 295 00:10:59,504 --> 00:11:01,264 The longer term vision is that we're going 296 00:11:01,264 --> 00:11:03,345 to transform it into something which is more 297 00:11:03,345 --> 00:11:05,585 of a a benchtop stand up device, so 298 00:11:05,585 --> 00:11:08,225 we would integrate those sort of liquid handling 299 00:11:08,225 --> 00:11:11,069 steps. So those are the different types of 300 00:11:11,069 --> 00:11:13,870 people. So larger labs, more established companies might 301 00:11:13,870 --> 00:11:15,889 already have liquid handling, and 302 00:11:16,350 --> 00:11:18,589 they will probably already have some expertise in 303 00:11:18,589 --> 00:11:20,769 being able to use that in house, whereas 304 00:11:20,829 --> 00:11:23,069 there's a huge number of smaller labs which 305 00:11:23,069 --> 00:11:25,195 are all doing this completely manually, where we 306 00:11:25,195 --> 00:11:27,214 see a system being able to 307 00:11:27,754 --> 00:11:28,254 actually, 308 00:11:29,834 --> 00:11:31,615 you know, just be a walk up solution. 309 00:11:31,674 --> 00:11:33,514 So you almost you you walk up, you 310 00:11:33,514 --> 00:11:35,195 put your plate in, you press, I want 311 00:11:35,195 --> 00:11:36,954 two plates out, and then you you go 312 00:11:36,954 --> 00:11:38,394 and have a coffee and and come back 313 00:11:38,394 --> 00:11:39,934 in ten minutes or whatever. 314 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,660 And that's sort of like that's where we 315 00:11:42,799 --> 00:11:44,480 the two scenarios in which we can see 316 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,320 it working. So in some places, people want 317 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,360 thousands and thousands of different or probably billions, 318 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,200 actually, because thousands is not that many for 319 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:52,179 a plate of cells. 320 00:11:53,945 --> 00:11:56,105 But, yeah, in those places, there's already liquid 321 00:11:56,105 --> 00:11:58,345 handling and then expanding out into really making 322 00:11:58,345 --> 00:11:59,965 sure that you can get it into every 323 00:12:00,184 --> 00:12:01,485 every lab in the world. 324 00:12:02,985 --> 00:12:03,485 And, 325 00:12:04,345 --> 00:12:06,825 I mean, I'm guessing that, that your systems 326 00:12:06,825 --> 00:12:08,345 are going to be used or maybe they're 327 00:12:08,345 --> 00:12:09,325 being used already 328 00:12:10,879 --> 00:12:11,539 in, research, 329 00:12:12,079 --> 00:12:13,620 you know, for developing 330 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:15,059 medical applications. 331 00:12:15,839 --> 00:12:16,339 And, 332 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:18,720 you know, there there's quite a bit of 333 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:19,220 regulatory, 334 00:12:20,399 --> 00:12:20,899 or 335 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:22,980 you've got to get over some regulatory 336 00:12:23,595 --> 00:12:25,214 hurdles, industry standards, 337 00:12:25,595 --> 00:12:26,634 that sort of thing. 338 00:12:27,274 --> 00:12:29,355 It it it is that something is that 339 00:12:29,355 --> 00:12:31,434 an issue for you? And is that something 340 00:12:31,434 --> 00:12:33,754 that you've done already? Are you in the 341 00:12:33,754 --> 00:12:35,615 process of of doing that? 342 00:12:36,980 --> 00:12:39,299 Yeah. So when it actually comes to drug 343 00:12:39,299 --> 00:12:39,799 discovery, 344 00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:42,679 so those preclinical testing of drug candidates, 345 00:12:42,980 --> 00:12:44,440 there are no 346 00:12:44,980 --> 00:12:47,379 sort of, like, regulations to first putting something 347 00:12:47,379 --> 00:12:49,345 into the lab. So it is it is 348 00:12:49,345 --> 00:12:51,424 as regulated as your toaster, so you need 349 00:12:51,424 --> 00:12:53,745 your CE or your UKCA marking or your 350 00:12:53,745 --> 00:12:54,884 international equivalents. 351 00:12:55,345 --> 00:12:57,424 But in those cases, all of the data 352 00:12:57,424 --> 00:12:58,404 that you are generating 353 00:12:59,745 --> 00:13:01,365 is indicative as opposed 354 00:13:02,384 --> 00:13:03,285 to actually being 355 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,500 clinical diagnostic data, for example. 356 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:08,720 But that's not to say that there's not 357 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:10,320 a level of reliability and trust that you 358 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,480 need to build up there. Obviously, scientists are 359 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,360 not interested in wasting their time on generating 360 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,875 unreliable data. It's not going to be telling 361 00:13:17,875 --> 00:13:19,955 them with some degree of certainty whether or 362 00:13:19,955 --> 00:13:21,575 not somebody's going to work in the clinic. 363 00:13:22,035 --> 00:13:24,514 So to that extent, we haven't had to 364 00:13:24,514 --> 00:13:26,375 deal with major regulatory barriers 365 00:13:26,915 --> 00:13:28,514 so far for that, but we are certainly 366 00:13:28,514 --> 00:13:30,134 putting in place a system 367 00:13:30,509 --> 00:13:32,610 that will mean when we get to regulatory 368 00:13:32,750 --> 00:13:34,450 barriers, so we'd so 369 00:13:34,830 --> 00:13:37,490 actually integrating it into those regenerative medicine manufacturing 370 00:13:37,549 --> 00:13:40,929 systems or, you know, we're interested in particular 371 00:13:40,990 --> 00:13:43,790 in being part of personalized drug screening. So 372 00:13:43,790 --> 00:13:46,065 that's when we take copies of your cells, 373 00:13:46,065 --> 00:13:47,684 for example, and we'll test, okay, 374 00:13:48,705 --> 00:13:49,205 what's 375 00:13:49,585 --> 00:13:51,264 anti cancer drug is gonna work best for 376 00:13:51,264 --> 00:13:52,804 this particular person's cancer 377 00:13:53,184 --> 00:13:54,705 or and which ones are going to have 378 00:13:54,705 --> 00:13:56,784 the least toxic effects, for example. And that 379 00:13:56,784 --> 00:13:58,649 can be applied to all sorts of different 380 00:13:58,649 --> 00:14:00,590 things. It's got had some hugely promising 381 00:14:01,049 --> 00:14:02,509 early results, but it's very, 382 00:14:02,970 --> 00:14:05,370 very expensive manually to get a a person 383 00:14:05,370 --> 00:14:06,649 to grow all of these different types of 384 00:14:06,649 --> 00:14:08,090 cells if you want to scale it up. 385 00:14:08,090 --> 00:14:09,450 So then, of course, you would have slightly 386 00:14:09,450 --> 00:14:13,115 different regulatory hurdles to your actual cell manufacturing 387 00:14:13,175 --> 00:14:13,675 things 388 00:14:14,615 --> 00:14:15,115 area. 389 00:14:15,735 --> 00:14:17,894 So, yeah, that's sort of where we're looking 390 00:14:17,894 --> 00:14:20,235 at. So regulation is definitely something on 391 00:14:21,575 --> 00:14:23,575 a horizon, but it's not something we're having 392 00:14:23,575 --> 00:14:25,330 to deal with right now. But we do 393 00:14:25,330 --> 00:14:26,230 need to meet 394 00:14:26,850 --> 00:14:30,129 high reliability standards and usability standards as well 395 00:14:30,129 --> 00:14:33,009 because otherwise, you're just helping people generate useless 396 00:14:33,009 --> 00:14:34,470 data, which nobody wants. 397 00:14:36,049 --> 00:14:37,889 I see. And can can we talk a 398 00:14:37,889 --> 00:14:39,429 bit about the origins 399 00:14:40,075 --> 00:14:40,654 of Impulsonics? 400 00:14:41,914 --> 00:14:42,575 The company, 401 00:14:43,274 --> 00:14:46,254 has spun out of the University of Bristol. 402 00:14:46,634 --> 00:14:48,495 I'm guessing that Bruce Drinkwater 403 00:14:48,955 --> 00:14:49,695 was involved. 404 00:14:50,315 --> 00:14:51,134 Yes. Bristol's 405 00:14:52,070 --> 00:14:53,509 ultrasound expert. And, 406 00:14:54,309 --> 00:14:56,149 I'm sure he's been on this podcast at 407 00:14:56,149 --> 00:14:56,970 least once. 408 00:14:58,309 --> 00:14:59,830 And I'll I'll I'll put a link to 409 00:14:59,830 --> 00:15:01,610 that episode in the notes. 410 00:15:02,789 --> 00:15:04,649 But I'm I'm guessing there were also 411 00:15:05,190 --> 00:15:06,409 were were there some biologists 412 00:15:07,029 --> 00:15:07,529 involved 413 00:15:08,204 --> 00:15:09,804 in this? Can you can you talk a 414 00:15:09,804 --> 00:15:13,324 bit about the academic collaboration that led to, 415 00:15:13,565 --> 00:15:16,065 this the, the launching of Impulseonics? 416 00:15:17,884 --> 00:15:20,365 Yeah. So as you are absolutely correct, we 417 00:15:20,365 --> 00:15:22,290 spun out of the University of Bristol. Bruce 418 00:15:22,290 --> 00:15:24,710 Drinkwater was one of my PhD supervisors. 419 00:15:25,970 --> 00:15:27,750 So I got involved in, 420 00:15:29,250 --> 00:15:29,750 the 421 00:15:30,210 --> 00:15:32,950 ultrasonic tractor beam project back in 422 00:15:33,410 --> 00:15:34,605 oh, now I'm testing my 423 00:15:35,565 --> 00:15:36,945 self. 2016, 424 00:15:37,164 --> 00:15:38,445 I think, was when I got involved in 425 00:15:38,445 --> 00:15:39,964 that for a summer project, and then I 426 00:15:39,964 --> 00:15:41,904 go on went on to do my PhD, 427 00:15:42,445 --> 00:15:43,324 which was looking at, 428 00:15:44,764 --> 00:15:47,105 optimal acoustic radiation force devices, 429 00:15:47,730 --> 00:15:49,509 essentially looking at ways to 430 00:15:50,049 --> 00:15:51,830 develop highly flexible systems 431 00:15:52,370 --> 00:15:55,169 for particle and cell manipulation. So we've done 432 00:15:55,169 --> 00:15:55,669 extensive, 433 00:15:57,009 --> 00:15:58,470 collaborations with biologists 434 00:15:58,929 --> 00:16:00,929 within the within the NDT group or the 435 00:16:00,929 --> 00:16:01,965 UNDT group 436 00:16:03,325 --> 00:16:03,825 for, 437 00:16:04,684 --> 00:16:06,785 those applications. And we've done a lot of 438 00:16:07,004 --> 00:16:07,504 collaboration 439 00:16:07,965 --> 00:16:08,925 actually with, 440 00:16:09,325 --> 00:16:11,825 I think he's now assistant professor James Armstrong, 441 00:16:12,285 --> 00:16:14,445 then a postdoc at Molly Stevens Group, who's 442 00:16:14,445 --> 00:16:15,264 quite a prestigious, 443 00:16:16,539 --> 00:16:17,039 bioengineering 444 00:16:17,740 --> 00:16:19,120 professor over at 445 00:16:19,659 --> 00:16:22,159 Imperial College London, I want to say. 446 00:16:23,179 --> 00:16:24,779 So, yeah, we worked quite a lot with 447 00:16:24,779 --> 00:16:26,240 James and with other biologists 448 00:16:26,940 --> 00:16:27,679 on various 449 00:16:28,274 --> 00:16:28,774 applications. 450 00:16:29,315 --> 00:16:30,834 One of the really nice things, as you 451 00:16:30,834 --> 00:16:32,834 said earlier, is that we know that ultrasound 452 00:16:32,834 --> 00:16:33,735 is very compatible 453 00:16:34,514 --> 00:16:37,074 with biology and in terms of length scales 454 00:16:37,074 --> 00:16:38,855 as well in terms of where it works. 455 00:16:39,714 --> 00:16:41,790 There was sort of a lot of work 456 00:16:41,790 --> 00:16:43,710 done and won the Nobel Prize not too 457 00:16:43,710 --> 00:16:45,889 long ago on using optical tweezers, 458 00:16:46,350 --> 00:16:48,750 which max out in a size at about 459 00:16:48,750 --> 00:16:52,050 the size of one single cell, and ultrasound 460 00:16:52,110 --> 00:16:54,190 can go down to about one single cell 461 00:16:54,190 --> 00:16:56,210 and up to the scale of millions. 462 00:16:56,565 --> 00:16:58,164 So that was where there was a real 463 00:16:58,164 --> 00:16:58,985 sort of, like, 464 00:16:59,365 --> 00:17:01,044 lot of interest in where we have a 465 00:17:01,044 --> 00:17:03,304 lot of needs to move millions of cells 466 00:17:03,445 --> 00:17:04,184 at a time. 467 00:17:05,125 --> 00:17:06,744 So we worked with James Armstrong. 468 00:17:07,365 --> 00:17:09,525 We've been doing some collaborations with him in 469 00:17:09,525 --> 00:17:11,840 terms of characterizing acoustic devices and how we 470 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:12,660 design them 471 00:17:13,360 --> 00:17:15,759 and that sort of work. And then as 472 00:17:15,759 --> 00:17:18,100 we came to the end of my PhD, 473 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:19,779 which had been more about developing 474 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:21,140 ultrasonic techniques, 475 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,279 we then started to focus more on those 476 00:17:23,279 --> 00:17:25,875 collaborations and building systems that would work specifically 477 00:17:25,875 --> 00:17:27,095 for the needs of biologists. 478 00:17:28,035 --> 00:17:30,535 So there was sort of, like, two years 479 00:17:30,914 --> 00:17:33,315 there where I was working grant to grant 480 00:17:33,315 --> 00:17:35,394 within the University of Bristol and also doing 481 00:17:35,394 --> 00:17:37,075 some part time work with some other I 482 00:17:37,075 --> 00:17:38,595 worked for Ultra Leap for a little bit 483 00:17:38,595 --> 00:17:41,250 part time on they use ultrasound for haptic 484 00:17:41,410 --> 00:17:43,410 feedback in air, so a very different application, 485 00:17:43,410 --> 00:17:44,069 but some 486 00:17:44,930 --> 00:17:46,470 comparable skill sets. And, 487 00:17:48,690 --> 00:17:50,609 yeah, that was something that we've been working 488 00:17:50,609 --> 00:17:53,089 on, basically validating this technology, showing that it 489 00:17:53,089 --> 00:17:54,069 worked on cells, 490 00:17:54,450 --> 00:17:56,390 achieving various manipulation techniques, 491 00:17:56,815 --> 00:17:59,375 and also doing some market research with some 492 00:17:59,375 --> 00:18:00,974 of Innovate UK schemes to be able to 493 00:18:00,974 --> 00:18:02,914 actually understand what are the really big 494 00:18:03,375 --> 00:18:06,035 problems that people are trying to solve 495 00:18:06,894 --> 00:18:07,394 with, 496 00:18:08,174 --> 00:18:08,674 or 497 00:18:09,190 --> 00:18:11,029 not with ultrasound, actually, the opposite of that. 498 00:18:11,029 --> 00:18:12,869 People problems that people are trying to solve 499 00:18:12,869 --> 00:18:15,130 that our technology would be applicable to. 500 00:18:15,670 --> 00:18:17,910 And that was how we identified this cell 501 00:18:17,910 --> 00:18:20,150 unsticking or cell passaging is the name of 502 00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:22,309 the whole process as a key area where 503 00:18:22,309 --> 00:18:24,965 there was a real unmet need but but 504 00:18:24,965 --> 00:18:26,505 our technology could meet. 505 00:18:27,845 --> 00:18:28,904 And and so, 506 00:18:29,205 --> 00:18:30,345 Luke, what's next, 507 00:18:30,805 --> 00:18:33,065 for the company? You you you mentioned earlier, 508 00:18:34,085 --> 00:18:34,585 applications, 509 00:18:34,965 --> 00:18:36,505 you know, sort of more clinical 510 00:18:37,125 --> 00:18:37,625 applications 511 00:18:38,085 --> 00:18:38,984 of the technology. 512 00:18:39,940 --> 00:18:41,859 So I'm guessing that's one thing that you're 513 00:18:41,859 --> 00:18:44,500 pursuing actively at the moment. But are there 514 00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:45,240 any other 515 00:18:46,420 --> 00:18:48,759 applications of this unsticking process, 516 00:18:49,859 --> 00:18:52,359 you know, maybe not related to 517 00:18:52,980 --> 00:18:53,480 biology 518 00:18:53,779 --> 00:18:54,440 or medicine 519 00:18:55,054 --> 00:18:55,375 that, 520 00:18:55,855 --> 00:18:57,554 that that that you could pursue? 521 00:18:59,615 --> 00:19:01,535 So I think the company's focus for now 522 00:19:01,535 --> 00:19:03,134 is probably going to be on the the 523 00:19:03,134 --> 00:19:03,634 biotechnology 524 00:19:04,015 --> 00:19:05,075 aspects of it, 525 00:19:05,775 --> 00:19:08,549 not exclusively related to the unsticking. So there's 526 00:19:08,789 --> 00:19:11,509 replacement of centrifuges for certain applications because we're 527 00:19:11,509 --> 00:19:13,910 able to manipulate cells within the well. There's 528 00:19:13,910 --> 00:19:16,309 also the manipulation of these larger structures called 529 00:19:16,309 --> 00:19:18,070 organoids, which can be made up of millions 530 00:19:18,070 --> 00:19:19,769 of cells, so they can be up to 531 00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:21,750 tens to hundreds of microns, even up to 532 00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:23,450 a couple of millimeters in diameter. 533 00:19:23,904 --> 00:19:25,265 And those are all things for which they 534 00:19:25,265 --> 00:19:27,684 aren't great solutions for manipulating it. 535 00:19:28,865 --> 00:19:29,924 We're probably 536 00:19:30,305 --> 00:19:32,644 not in the short term looking at 537 00:19:33,025 --> 00:19:33,525 nonbiological 538 00:19:33,984 --> 00:19:36,670 applications, but I do still think that there 539 00:19:36,670 --> 00:19:39,230 was some interesting and exciting applications of this 540 00:19:39,230 --> 00:19:40,130 kind of technology 541 00:19:40,830 --> 00:19:44,210 in material science, particularly being able to align 542 00:19:45,150 --> 00:19:48,769 small particles within, for example, a composite structure. 543 00:19:49,230 --> 00:19:50,684 So that allows you to get 544 00:19:52,045 --> 00:19:52,545 anisotropic, 545 00:19:53,005 --> 00:19:56,045 so directionally stronger in one direction, say, x 546 00:19:56,045 --> 00:19:57,184 rather than y. 547 00:19:58,365 --> 00:20:00,365 So getting that anisotropic strength is something that's 548 00:20:00,365 --> 00:20:02,765 been shown in biotechnology using ultrasound and indeed 549 00:20:02,765 --> 00:20:05,000 in composites. So there's some overlap there, and 550 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,079 I think that could be quite an exciting 551 00:20:07,079 --> 00:20:08,859 field if you wanted to do some really 552 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:10,380 high precision 553 00:20:10,839 --> 00:20:13,559 engineering, which could also be combined with three 554 00:20:13,559 --> 00:20:14,779 d printing, for example. 555 00:20:16,134 --> 00:20:18,054 So I think there's a lot of scope 556 00:20:18,054 --> 00:20:20,075 for these things, and, of course, there's some 557 00:20:20,134 --> 00:20:21,974 really exciting work that people have been doing 558 00:20:21,974 --> 00:20:24,454 to actually levitate particles in air, which has 559 00:20:24,454 --> 00:20:25,994 some broader scientific applications. 560 00:20:26,934 --> 00:20:29,015 One of our engineers, Adam, actually at one 561 00:20:29,015 --> 00:20:30,875 point did some work on, like, 562 00:20:31,269 --> 00:20:31,769 levitating 563 00:20:32,230 --> 00:20:34,809 to view proteins and things like that. 564 00:20:35,109 --> 00:20:37,190 And that was, I think, at one point 565 00:20:37,190 --> 00:20:39,429 used to optimize the production of chocolate, so 566 00:20:39,429 --> 00:20:41,130 you never know where it's going to go. 567 00:20:43,125 --> 00:20:44,345 But, yeah, that's probably 568 00:20:44,644 --> 00:20:46,484 our goals for the moment are probably focused 569 00:20:46,484 --> 00:20:47,865 on expanding our position 570 00:20:48,404 --> 00:20:48,904 within 571 00:20:49,684 --> 00:20:51,924 the biotechnology market, and that's sort of where 572 00:20:51,924 --> 00:20:53,224 we've optimized for. 573 00:20:54,164 --> 00:20:56,589 And if I can ask you one final 574 00:20:56,589 --> 00:20:58,750 question, Luke. We're you know, here at Physics 575 00:20:58,750 --> 00:21:00,849 World, we're very interested in, 576 00:21:01,549 --> 00:21:02,049 careers. 577 00:21:03,149 --> 00:21:05,809 And I I I know strictly strictly speaking, 578 00:21:05,869 --> 00:21:08,289 you you you you're not a physicist. But, 579 00:21:08,684 --> 00:21:10,465 you know, we'll we'll make you an honorary 580 00:21:10,525 --> 00:21:13,404 physicist for that for the purposes of this 581 00:21:13,404 --> 00:21:14,465 of this podcast. 582 00:21:14,924 --> 00:21:17,164 And I I'm just curious about, you know, 583 00:21:17,164 --> 00:21:18,705 when you were doing your PhD, 584 00:21:19,725 --> 00:21:22,445 did you did you have working for a 585 00:21:22,445 --> 00:21:22,945 startup 586 00:21:23,325 --> 00:21:24,065 in mind? 587 00:21:24,569 --> 00:21:26,730 Is that something that you're interested in right 588 00:21:26,730 --> 00:21:29,210 from the beginning, or did it sort of 589 00:21:29,210 --> 00:21:31,609 evolve as you were sort of seeing the 590 00:21:31,609 --> 00:21:34,490 research that was being done in Bruce's lab 591 00:21:34,490 --> 00:21:36,409 and maybe some other labs that you thought, 592 00:21:36,409 --> 00:21:38,774 okay. I can I can go with this, 593 00:21:38,774 --> 00:21:41,014 you know, once I'm once I've finished, I 594 00:21:41,014 --> 00:21:43,194 can I can commercialize this technology? 595 00:21:43,815 --> 00:21:45,734 Where where where when did you get the 596 00:21:45,734 --> 00:21:46,615 idea to, 597 00:21:47,255 --> 00:21:49,014 to work, you know, to to to get 598 00:21:49,014 --> 00:21:51,095 involved in a start up rather than working 599 00:21:51,095 --> 00:21:51,750 for a 600 00:21:52,950 --> 00:21:54,009 established company? 601 00:21:55,349 --> 00:21:57,670 So I think the idea of working for 602 00:21:57,670 --> 00:21:59,349 a start up to some level was always 603 00:21:59,349 --> 00:22:01,430 something that was on my radar. I think 604 00:22:01,430 --> 00:22:02,650 it's a little bit difficult 605 00:22:03,109 --> 00:22:04,569 not to have it on your 606 00:22:05,644 --> 00:22:07,724 radar in in the modern world if you're 607 00:22:07,724 --> 00:22:09,565 studying some kind of a technology, but, of 608 00:22:09,565 --> 00:22:11,164 course, lots of people don't go and do 609 00:22:11,164 --> 00:22:13,164 it. I think for me, one of the 610 00:22:13,164 --> 00:22:15,505 big influences was as part of my undergraduate 611 00:22:15,644 --> 00:22:18,140 degree, I went and did three months working 612 00:22:18,140 --> 00:22:21,440 for building services engineering firm called WSP. 613 00:22:22,299 --> 00:22:22,799 And 614 00:22:23,420 --> 00:22:25,200 I I didn't find that 615 00:22:25,740 --> 00:22:26,240 as 616 00:22:26,539 --> 00:22:28,539 exciting, and maybe I was very interested in 617 00:22:28,539 --> 00:22:30,700 working with cutting edge. And building services engineering, 618 00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:32,640 of course, is hugely important, 619 00:22:33,794 --> 00:22:34,615 and it is everywhere. 620 00:22:35,075 --> 00:22:36,994 And if that makes it a very, very 621 00:22:36,994 --> 00:22:38,294 stable career path, 622 00:22:39,554 --> 00:22:41,315 and, of course, people do exciting things in 623 00:22:41,315 --> 00:22:43,335 it. But I realized for me, I 624 00:22:44,274 --> 00:22:45,414 was really interested 625 00:22:46,549 --> 00:22:48,950 in being the first person to do things 626 00:22:48,950 --> 00:22:50,869 and to do things that were really cutting 627 00:22:50,869 --> 00:22:51,369 edge. 628 00:22:51,670 --> 00:22:54,170 And looking around at the world, I saw 629 00:22:54,230 --> 00:22:56,150 that a lot of the stuff that was 630 00:22:56,150 --> 00:22:58,494 being done right on the cutting edge was 631 00:22:58,494 --> 00:23:00,414 being done by startups. I think of a 632 00:23:00,414 --> 00:23:01,714 lot of limp the influence, 633 00:23:02,174 --> 00:23:04,015 I have to probably give to Ultra Leap 634 00:23:04,015 --> 00:23:05,794 was one of the companies based in Bristol, 635 00:23:06,015 --> 00:23:08,595 which had previously spun in part out collaboration 636 00:23:08,734 --> 00:23:11,534 between the, Bruce Drinkwaters Lab and the Bristol 637 00:23:11,534 --> 00:23:13,859 Interactions Group that I also worked for. So 638 00:23:13,859 --> 00:23:16,339 I always had an awareness that startups were 639 00:23:16,339 --> 00:23:18,039 doing interesting things 640 00:23:18,819 --> 00:23:19,799 in my fields, 641 00:23:20,339 --> 00:23:21,400 if that makes sense. 642 00:23:22,099 --> 00:23:23,700 So that was something I'd sort of, like, 643 00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:25,460 looked at and gone back. Oh, that's quite 644 00:23:25,460 --> 00:23:25,960 interesting. 645 00:23:26,535 --> 00:23:28,075 And then as I did my PhD, 646 00:23:28,615 --> 00:23:31,255 I I became increasingly convinced that there was 647 00:23:31,255 --> 00:23:32,234 something valuable 648 00:23:32,855 --> 00:23:33,674 here, but 649 00:23:34,055 --> 00:23:34,375 we, 650 00:23:35,654 --> 00:23:37,335 there were problems that weren't being solved, that 651 00:23:37,335 --> 00:23:39,015 could be solved with this technology, and someone 652 00:23:39,015 --> 00:23:40,474 was going to have to do it. 653 00:23:41,255 --> 00:23:41,755 And 654 00:23:42,299 --> 00:23:44,380 I figured I would I would give it 655 00:23:44,380 --> 00:23:45,200 a go and 656 00:23:45,579 --> 00:23:46,559 see if I could. 657 00:23:47,259 --> 00:23:49,339 So that's sort of where it came from. 658 00:23:49,339 --> 00:23:52,139 I think throughout my PhD, I was definitely 659 00:23:52,139 --> 00:23:54,059 aware of startups. So, obviously, we're not the 660 00:23:54,220 --> 00:23:55,740 UltraLeap is not the only one to have 661 00:23:55,740 --> 00:23:57,845 come out of our research group. There's another 662 00:23:57,845 --> 00:23:59,384 group, company called InductorSense, 663 00:23:59,684 --> 00:24:00,904 which does these little 664 00:24:01,284 --> 00:24:02,664 sensors that are almost 665 00:24:02,964 --> 00:24:04,804 they're like a sticker that you can put 666 00:24:04,804 --> 00:24:05,304 onto 667 00:24:05,845 --> 00:24:07,204 a a pipe, and then you can just 668 00:24:07,204 --> 00:24:09,065 tap a sensor against it, and it 669 00:24:09,420 --> 00:24:11,259 activates it and then gives you a a 670 00:24:11,259 --> 00:24:12,160 thickness measurements. 671 00:24:12,460 --> 00:24:14,779 So you get really repeatable thickness measurements, for 672 00:24:14,779 --> 00:24:16,220 example. So I could see there was also 673 00:24:16,220 --> 00:24:18,320 a broad range of things, like, didn't just 674 00:24:18,380 --> 00:24:19,900 have to be, you know oh, UltraReach was 675 00:24:19,900 --> 00:24:22,059 very much focused on the human computer interactions, 676 00:24:22,059 --> 00:24:22,799 which fits 677 00:24:23,265 --> 00:24:25,025 maybe within the more sort of, 678 00:24:26,144 --> 00:24:28,865 sexy Silicon Valley image of a startup, whereas 679 00:24:28,865 --> 00:24:31,025 InductorSense is more focused on a much more 680 00:24:31,025 --> 00:24:32,164 hardware industrial 681 00:24:32,705 --> 00:24:35,105 world, you know, something that's perhaps not quite 682 00:24:35,105 --> 00:24:35,605 as 683 00:24:36,410 --> 00:24:38,669 not quite as slick as Uber, for example, 684 00:24:38,890 --> 00:24:39,690 but it's, 685 00:24:40,009 --> 00:24:42,169 still very important, and it showed that, actually, 686 00:24:42,169 --> 00:24:44,650 you can get startups existing within a whole 687 00:24:44,650 --> 00:24:46,269 range of different worlds 688 00:24:46,730 --> 00:24:49,634 and solving solving very different problems and offering 689 00:24:49,634 --> 00:24:51,815 very different value propositions to the world. 690 00:24:52,515 --> 00:24:53,015 So, 691 00:24:53,394 --> 00:24:55,154 yeah, it was just I think it was 692 00:24:55,154 --> 00:24:57,735 something I was always interested in doing 693 00:24:59,315 --> 00:25:02,460 something really cutting edge, and I eventually came 694 00:25:02,460 --> 00:25:03,039 to see 695 00:25:03,500 --> 00:25:05,359 being part of a start up as 696 00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:08,059 a way of doing that. And for an 697 00:25:08,059 --> 00:25:09,740 extended period of time, I guess I was 698 00:25:09,740 --> 00:25:10,240 just 699 00:25:10,539 --> 00:25:12,400 seeing if it would work and, 700 00:25:12,940 --> 00:25:15,200 you know, knowing that there were other options 701 00:25:15,420 --> 00:25:15,920 available 702 00:25:16,299 --> 00:25:16,755 for 703 00:25:17,795 --> 00:25:20,674 people with technical knowledge as I did as 704 00:25:20,674 --> 00:25:21,414 I went along. 705 00:25:22,194 --> 00:25:24,194 And what what would your advice be to, 706 00:25:24,194 --> 00:25:26,035 you know, somebody who's doing a degree in 707 00:25:26,035 --> 00:25:28,134 physics or maybe they're doing a PhD? 708 00:25:29,154 --> 00:25:30,869 Is the, you know, 709 00:25:31,329 --> 00:25:32,789 the the world of biophysics, 710 00:25:33,650 --> 00:25:35,269 you know, as applied to medicine, 711 00:25:36,450 --> 00:25:37,190 it it 712 00:25:37,490 --> 00:25:39,409 it I mean, is that a really growing 713 00:25:39,409 --> 00:25:41,089 field? Is is there a lot of growth 714 00:25:41,089 --> 00:25:42,944 there? Do you think that that's where that 715 00:25:42,944 --> 00:25:45,265 would be one place where a physicist, you 716 00:25:45,265 --> 00:25:47,904 know, could look for a career, you know, 717 00:25:47,904 --> 00:25:49,585 either in a start up or in a 718 00:25:49,585 --> 00:25:50,804 in a larger company? 719 00:25:51,265 --> 00:25:54,224 Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think what's very 720 00:25:54,224 --> 00:25:54,724 interesting 721 00:25:55,184 --> 00:25:55,684 about 722 00:25:56,380 --> 00:25:56,880 biotechnology, 723 00:25:57,579 --> 00:25:58,799 particularly at the moment, 724 00:25:59,339 --> 00:26:02,140 is that there's this huge drive for data 725 00:26:02,140 --> 00:26:02,640 quality 726 00:26:03,259 --> 00:26:05,259 because a lot of people are looking at 727 00:26:05,259 --> 00:26:06,779 their AI models and they're looking at their 728 00:26:06,779 --> 00:26:07,839 data and they're going, 729 00:26:08,460 --> 00:26:10,275 a lot of this data isn't that good. 730 00:26:10,835 --> 00:26:12,535 I'm going to 731 00:26:12,835 --> 00:26:14,434 just feed some noise into this model. I'll 732 00:26:14,434 --> 00:26:15,714 need to generate new data, and that was 733 00:26:15,714 --> 00:26:17,555 something that was actually recognized of a The 734 00:26:17,555 --> 00:26:20,595 UK's AI for science strategy recently. But there's 735 00:26:20,595 --> 00:26:21,095 also 736 00:26:21,634 --> 00:26:24,115 a huge amount of opportunity, I think, at 737 00:26:24,115 --> 00:26:24,695 the moment, 738 00:26:25,394 --> 00:26:26,250 for not just 739 00:26:27,369 --> 00:26:30,329 quantity and quality of data data, but actual 740 00:26:30,329 --> 00:26:32,009 depth of data, looking for new types of 741 00:26:32,009 --> 00:26:33,630 data, more predictive data, 742 00:26:34,250 --> 00:26:37,049 and new ways of engineering things. And I 743 00:26:37,049 --> 00:26:38,670 think there's also a lot of interesting 744 00:26:39,130 --> 00:26:40,349 physics based problems, 745 00:26:41,164 --> 00:26:43,724 to be solved in that world, particularly when 746 00:26:43,724 --> 00:26:45,644 we look at regenerative medicines and cell therapies. 747 00:26:45,644 --> 00:26:47,585 You know, I speak a lot about regenerative 748 00:26:47,644 --> 00:26:49,184 medicines in particular because 749 00:26:49,724 --> 00:26:50,944 that is a 750 00:26:51,325 --> 00:26:55,299 emerging linguistic distinction from cell therapies which tend 751 00:26:55,299 --> 00:26:57,380 to be more focused on things like t 752 00:26:57,380 --> 00:26:59,539 cells, which are grown in suspension. So they 753 00:26:59,539 --> 00:27:01,460 grow floating because they would normally sit in 754 00:27:01,460 --> 00:27:02,039 the blood. 755 00:27:02,500 --> 00:27:04,680 We have applications in that area, but 756 00:27:05,619 --> 00:27:07,000 for simplicity of the explanation. 757 00:27:07,859 --> 00:27:09,640 So that's something but there's definitely 758 00:27:10,154 --> 00:27:11,515 a lot of growth and a lot of 759 00:27:11,515 --> 00:27:13,835 interest in that and actually those interactions of 760 00:27:13,835 --> 00:27:15,375 how can we build 761 00:27:15,674 --> 00:27:17,355 new drugs, how can we build new medical 762 00:27:17,355 --> 00:27:18,575 devices, and in particular, 763 00:27:19,275 --> 00:27:21,674 there's a lot of interest in making bringing 764 00:27:21,674 --> 00:27:24,090 things much closer to the patient, which is 765 00:27:24,090 --> 00:27:26,750 maybe where physics comes in at the most 766 00:27:27,049 --> 00:27:28,809 interesting level. So one of the most interesting 767 00:27:28,809 --> 00:27:30,009 examples of this I can give is there's 768 00:27:30,009 --> 00:27:32,090 a company called Siloton, which is based in 769 00:27:32,090 --> 00:27:33,869 The UK, which is based in Bristol, 770 00:27:34,330 --> 00:27:35,309 and they use, 771 00:27:35,769 --> 00:27:38,109 quantum chips to be able to actually 772 00:27:38,494 --> 00:27:41,535 measure how your eye is degrading. So for 773 00:27:41,535 --> 00:27:44,255 people who've got eye degradation conditions, for example, 774 00:27:44,255 --> 00:27:46,015 it transforms it from something that only gets 775 00:27:46,015 --> 00:27:48,414 sort of, like, infrequently tested in the hospital 776 00:27:48,414 --> 00:27:50,975 into something that can actually be located very 777 00:27:50,975 --> 00:27:52,355 close to the point of care. 778 00:27:52,735 --> 00:27:53,875 So that actual 779 00:27:54,230 --> 00:27:54,730 creating 780 00:27:55,190 --> 00:27:55,849 much better 781 00:27:56,710 --> 00:27:58,630 diagnostics and putting it really close to the 782 00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:59,849 point of care is 783 00:28:00,230 --> 00:28:01,130 hugely important 784 00:28:01,670 --> 00:28:03,750 and being able to put more sensors into 785 00:28:03,750 --> 00:28:06,150 wearables, for example. You know? I look at 786 00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:08,070 I've got a a smart tracking watch and 787 00:28:08,070 --> 00:28:11,434 the the blood flow measuring techniques were, you 788 00:28:11,434 --> 00:28:13,994 know, originally used on on pilots in World 789 00:28:13,994 --> 00:28:16,234 War two clicked onto the ears, but actually 790 00:28:16,234 --> 00:28:18,474 being able to reengineer that to be able 791 00:28:18,474 --> 00:28:19,994 to fit into a watch and just be 792 00:28:19,994 --> 00:28:20,494 a, 793 00:28:20,875 --> 00:28:23,115 yeah, single single sided sensor and all that 794 00:28:23,115 --> 00:28:25,329 sort of thing. That's there's a lot of 795 00:28:25,329 --> 00:28:27,269 physics there, I think, particularly in the census 796 00:28:27,490 --> 00:28:29,250 space would be where I'd be looking as 797 00:28:29,250 --> 00:28:31,409 a physicist interested in that world. And, of 798 00:28:31,409 --> 00:28:33,649 course, it's hugely rewarding because you are helping 799 00:28:33,649 --> 00:28:35,029 to improve people's lives. 800 00:28:36,130 --> 00:28:38,375 That's great. Oh, so some exciting stuff there. 801 00:28:38,375 --> 00:28:41,095 I should point out that, I believe we've 802 00:28:41,095 --> 00:28:41,595 covered, 803 00:28:43,335 --> 00:28:43,835 well, 804 00:28:44,294 --> 00:28:47,355 possibly your work, but definitely somebody in Bruce's 805 00:28:47,575 --> 00:28:50,130 lab's work on acoustic tweezers. 806 00:28:50,829 --> 00:28:52,670 And so I'll put a link in the, 807 00:28:52,910 --> 00:28:55,710 in the podcast notes for that. And I'm 808 00:28:55,710 --> 00:28:57,809 pretty sure that the folks from Siloton 809 00:28:58,429 --> 00:29:00,429 have been on the podcast as well. Oh, 810 00:29:00,429 --> 00:29:02,509 well, go and listen to them. You can 811 00:29:02,509 --> 00:29:04,125 find out what I'm saying what's wrong. 812 00:29:05,005 --> 00:29:06,845 It is a small world. So I'll put 813 00:29:06,845 --> 00:29:09,244 some I'll put the notes I'll put a 814 00:29:09,244 --> 00:29:11,644 link to that in the notes, as well. 815 00:29:11,644 --> 00:29:13,724 Well, Luke, thanks so much for coming on 816 00:29:13,724 --> 00:29:16,464 the podcast and talking about impulsonics. 817 00:29:16,845 --> 00:29:18,625 It's a it's a fascinating story, 818 00:29:19,049 --> 00:29:21,630 and, we wish the company very well. 819 00:29:22,250 --> 00:29:24,190 Thank you, Hamish. Thanks for having me. 820 00:29:31,815 --> 00:29:34,234 That was Luke Cox of Impulsonics. 821 00:29:35,095 --> 00:29:37,674 Thanks, Luke, for a fascinating discussion. 822 00:29:38,534 --> 00:29:41,095 Don't forget to check out our series of 823 00:29:41,095 --> 00:29:42,794 live panel discussions 824 00:29:43,174 --> 00:29:44,634 covering quantum metrology, 825 00:29:45,255 --> 00:29:47,980 medical physics, and nuclear fusion. 826 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,200 Click on the Physics World live tab at 827 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:53,819 physicsworld.com 828 00:29:54,039 --> 00:29:55,179 for more information 829 00:29:55,639 --> 00:29:58,220 and to register for these exciting events. 830 00:29:59,125 --> 00:30:00,964 I'm afraid that's all the time we have 831 00:30:00,964 --> 00:30:02,105 for this week's episode. 832 00:30:02,565 --> 00:30:05,845 I'm Hamish Johnston, and our producer is Fred 833 00:30:05,845 --> 00:30:06,345 Isles. 834 00:30:06,884 --> 00:30:08,744 The theme music for our podcasts 835 00:30:09,204 --> 00:30:11,980 is called one three seven, and it was 836 00:30:11,980 --> 00:30:13,359 composed and performed 837 00:30:13,740 --> 00:30:14,720 by the physicist 838 00:30:15,339 --> 00:30:16,240 Philip Moriarty. 839 00:30:17,099 --> 00:30:18,880 We'll be back again next week.