1 00:00:07,599 --> 00:00:10,559 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World Weekly 2 00:00:10,559 --> 00:00:12,500 podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston. 3 00:00:12,984 --> 00:00:15,785 In this episode, I'm in conversation with Tim 4 00:00:15,785 --> 00:00:16,285 Gershon, 5 00:00:16,664 --> 00:00:19,144 who is a particle physicist based at The 6 00:00:19,144 --> 00:00:19,644 UK's 7 00:00:20,024 --> 00:00:21,244 University of Warwick. 8 00:00:21,864 --> 00:00:24,184 Tim is a long time member of the 9 00:00:24,184 --> 00:00:24,684 LHCb 10 00:00:25,304 --> 00:00:25,804 collaboration, 11 00:00:26,609 --> 00:00:29,830 which operates an experiment on the Large Hadron 12 00:00:29,890 --> 00:00:31,190 Collider at CERN. 13 00:00:31,730 --> 00:00:34,310 And Tim is currently the collaboration's 14 00:00:35,250 --> 00:00:36,549 spokesperson elect. 15 00:00:37,409 --> 00:00:40,210 Earlier this year, the UK government announced that 16 00:00:40,210 --> 00:00:41,909 it would no longer fund 17 00:00:42,225 --> 00:00:45,604 its share of a crucial upgrade to LHCb. 18 00:00:46,704 --> 00:00:48,465 This came as a shock to Tim and 19 00:00:48,465 --> 00:00:50,645 his colleagues, and he explains 20 00:00:51,104 --> 00:00:53,844 that this major cut puts the experiment 21 00:00:54,659 --> 00:00:57,559 and UK particle physics in jeopardy. 22 00:00:58,420 --> 00:01:00,600 We also talk about some of LHCb's 23 00:01:01,219 --> 00:01:02,199 research highlights 24 00:01:02,579 --> 00:01:05,140 over the past year and look forward to 25 00:01:05,140 --> 00:01:08,040 what the experiment could do in the future. 26 00:01:16,034 --> 00:01:17,895 Hi, Tim. Welcome to the podcast. 27 00:01:18,995 --> 00:01:21,415 Hi, Hamish. I'm delighted to join you. 28 00:01:22,130 --> 00:01:24,609 So Tim, can we start off talking a 29 00:01:24,609 --> 00:01:25,990 bit about LHCb 30 00:01:26,530 --> 00:01:27,030 itself? 31 00:01:27,969 --> 00:01:31,010 So so can you describe the experiment, and 32 00:01:31,010 --> 00:01:31,909 what distinguishes 33 00:01:32,210 --> 00:01:33,829 it from other experiments 34 00:01:34,290 --> 00:01:35,270 on the LHC? 35 00:01:36,635 --> 00:01:37,775 Yeah. So LHCb 36 00:01:38,155 --> 00:01:40,635 is one of the four main experiments at 37 00:01:40,635 --> 00:01:42,334 CERN's Large Hadron Collider. 38 00:01:43,034 --> 00:01:45,114 But as you said, it's not the same 39 00:01:45,114 --> 00:01:46,474 as all the others. In fact, it has 40 00:01:46,474 --> 00:01:47,614 a unique design, 41 00:01:47,915 --> 00:01:50,880 and, that design gives it a unique physics 42 00:01:51,340 --> 00:01:53,200 program. So let me start with the design. 43 00:01:53,819 --> 00:01:56,459 LHCb is designed to be optimal for the 44 00:01:56,459 --> 00:01:59,020 study of particles that are produced in Large 45 00:01:59,020 --> 00:02:00,319 Hadron Collider collisions, 46 00:02:01,099 --> 00:02:01,840 that contain 47 00:02:02,299 --> 00:02:04,905 either the beauty or the charm quarks or 48 00:02:04,905 --> 00:02:06,125 in some cases both. 49 00:02:06,825 --> 00:02:10,025 Now because these quarks are relatively light compared 50 00:02:10,025 --> 00:02:12,104 to the energy of the proton proton collisions 51 00:02:12,104 --> 00:02:12,925 at the LHC, 52 00:02:13,544 --> 00:02:16,264 they're produced at small angles relative to the 53 00:02:16,264 --> 00:02:16,949 beam direction. 54 00:02:17,750 --> 00:02:19,930 So while the other detectors at the LHC 55 00:02:20,069 --> 00:02:22,330 tend to have a kind of cylindrical design 56 00:02:22,469 --> 00:02:25,370 surrounding the interaction point and looking at particles 57 00:02:25,430 --> 00:02:26,810 produced at large angles, 58 00:02:27,349 --> 00:02:29,909 LHEB, on the other hand, covers the forward 59 00:02:29,909 --> 00:02:30,409 region. 60 00:02:30,884 --> 00:02:32,644 So you can really see this difference if 61 00:02:32,644 --> 00:02:34,824 you just look at pictures of the detectors. 62 00:02:35,764 --> 00:02:36,965 So why is it, 63 00:02:37,444 --> 00:02:39,284 designed in that way? Well, that is to 64 00:02:39,284 --> 00:02:41,204 give it a physics program which allows us 65 00:02:41,204 --> 00:02:43,844 to study what we call flavor physics, really 66 00:02:43,844 --> 00:02:45,704 the the physics of how these different 67 00:02:46,129 --> 00:02:47,989 quarks behave. And in particular, 68 00:02:48,770 --> 00:02:51,409 one interesting question in flavor physics is to 69 00:02:51,409 --> 00:02:53,509 study matter antimatter asymmetries. 70 00:02:54,209 --> 00:02:56,129 And this is really important as we need 71 00:02:56,129 --> 00:02:58,629 to try to understand how the matter dominated 72 00:02:58,770 --> 00:03:02,435 universe evolved in the very early moments after 73 00:03:02,435 --> 00:03:03,335 the big bang. 74 00:03:04,115 --> 00:03:07,634 But also through studying rare decays of these, 75 00:03:07,955 --> 00:03:08,935 flavored particles, 76 00:03:09,314 --> 00:03:12,435 we can test the standard model through, precision 77 00:03:12,435 --> 00:03:12,935 measurements. 78 00:03:14,210 --> 00:03:16,450 So that's sort of the core physics program, 79 00:03:16,450 --> 00:03:18,610 but it turns out by serendipity that if 80 00:03:18,610 --> 00:03:20,770 you design a detector to be able to 81 00:03:20,770 --> 00:03:22,930 do these things really well, you're able to 82 00:03:22,930 --> 00:03:24,770 do a vast number of other things very 83 00:03:24,770 --> 00:03:26,145 well, in addition. 84 00:03:26,544 --> 00:03:27,365 And in particular, 85 00:03:27,985 --> 00:03:30,145 we have been able to discover huge numbers 86 00:03:30,145 --> 00:03:32,965 of new hadrons, including the so called 87 00:03:33,344 --> 00:03:35,605 exotic hadrons, pentaquarks and tetraquarks, 88 00:03:36,224 --> 00:03:38,625 and much, much more besides. In fact, so 89 00:03:38,625 --> 00:03:40,805 far, we have over 800 publications, 90 00:03:41,639 --> 00:03:43,579 which includes several major discoveries. 91 00:03:45,479 --> 00:03:47,959 I see. And Tim, you you are by 92 00:03:47,959 --> 00:03:49,579 no means the only British, 93 00:03:50,519 --> 00:03:53,639 physicist working on LHCb. Can you can you 94 00:03:53,639 --> 00:03:55,340 talk a bit about The UK's 95 00:03:56,075 --> 00:03:57,694 participation in the experiment? 96 00:03:58,875 --> 00:04:00,555 Yeah. So one of the the features of 97 00:04:00,555 --> 00:04:02,635 the way particle physics is organized in The 98 00:04:02,635 --> 00:04:04,794 UK is that we tend to focus our 99 00:04:04,794 --> 00:04:08,415 effort on fewer experiments compared to some other 100 00:04:08,620 --> 00:04:10,080 countries of similar 101 00:04:10,460 --> 00:04:12,939 size. So Germany, France, and Italy, for for 102 00:04:12,939 --> 00:04:13,439 example. 103 00:04:13,740 --> 00:04:15,900 So LHCb is a good example of that. 104 00:04:15,900 --> 00:04:18,000 The UK has a a really strong, 105 00:04:18,379 --> 00:04:20,460 involvement in LHCb because it's one of the 106 00:04:20,460 --> 00:04:22,460 experiments that we've chosen to focus on, and 107 00:04:22,460 --> 00:04:24,305 this has been extremely successful, 108 00:04:25,004 --> 00:04:26,845 allowing The UK to make a really strong 109 00:04:26,845 --> 00:04:28,064 impact in LHEB. 110 00:04:28,845 --> 00:04:31,645 That means leadership of the key detectors and 111 00:04:31,645 --> 00:04:35,245 computing projects as well as physics exploitation and 112 00:04:35,245 --> 00:04:36,944 indeed the overall collaboration. 113 00:04:37,909 --> 00:04:38,810 So the overall, 114 00:04:39,269 --> 00:04:41,829 leader of the collaboration is a position that 115 00:04:41,829 --> 00:04:42,810 we call the spokesperson 116 00:04:43,189 --> 00:04:45,990 in particle physics. And in LHCb, The UK 117 00:04:45,990 --> 00:04:48,569 has provided four of the eight spokespersons, 118 00:04:49,430 --> 00:04:52,310 which includes myself, recently elected to be the 119 00:04:52,310 --> 00:04:53,375 next spokesperson. 120 00:04:54,475 --> 00:04:57,194 So we're providing about, half of the overall 121 00:04:57,194 --> 00:04:59,035 leaders of the project, but from, 122 00:04:59,435 --> 00:05:00,735 about 18% 123 00:05:01,035 --> 00:05:03,055 of the the the members and authors, 124 00:05:03,675 --> 00:05:04,975 of the the collaboration. 125 00:05:06,329 --> 00:05:07,610 The the collaboration is a is a large 126 00:05:07,610 --> 00:05:10,250 one, I should say. LHCb is approaching 2,000 127 00:05:10,250 --> 00:05:10,750 members, 128 00:05:11,370 --> 00:05:14,970 from over a 100 institutes in currently 28 129 00:05:14,970 --> 00:05:15,470 countries. 130 00:05:16,490 --> 00:05:19,425 A good example of UK leadership in LHCb 131 00:05:19,564 --> 00:05:20,785 is that we initiated 132 00:05:21,165 --> 00:05:23,964 and developed plans for an upgrade to the 133 00:05:23,964 --> 00:05:24,464 experiment, 134 00:05:24,925 --> 00:05:27,964 which will allow LHCb to continue taking data 135 00:05:27,964 --> 00:05:30,785 until the end of LHC operations, 136 00:05:31,189 --> 00:05:32,729 the so called high luminosity 137 00:05:33,189 --> 00:05:33,689 era 138 00:05:34,310 --> 00:05:35,370 high luminosity 139 00:05:35,909 --> 00:05:37,610 era of the LHC. 140 00:05:38,949 --> 00:05:39,909 I see. And, 141 00:05:40,469 --> 00:05:42,490 before we we talk about, 142 00:05:43,110 --> 00:05:45,269 the sort of funding issue that's come up 143 00:05:45,269 --> 00:05:45,769 recently, 144 00:05:46,875 --> 00:05:48,254 this high loo luminosity 145 00:05:48,555 --> 00:05:51,274 upgrade, that's something that's being done to the 146 00:05:51,274 --> 00:05:51,774 LHC. 147 00:05:52,235 --> 00:05:54,335 It's something that's being done to 148 00:05:55,115 --> 00:05:55,774 the experiments 149 00:05:56,074 --> 00:05:58,314 on the LHC. It's it it really is 150 00:05:58,314 --> 00:05:59,774 a big deal, isn't it? 151 00:06:00,579 --> 00:06:03,300 Yeah. That's right. So the the main, upgrade 152 00:06:03,300 --> 00:06:04,120 of the accelerator, 153 00:06:05,300 --> 00:06:08,259 and of, two of the experiments of the 154 00:06:08,259 --> 00:06:10,740 main experiments at the LHC, the ATLAS and 155 00:06:10,740 --> 00:06:11,800 CMS experiments, 156 00:06:12,500 --> 00:06:14,419 that will take place in the next few 157 00:06:14,419 --> 00:06:14,745 years. 158 00:06:15,225 --> 00:06:18,665 So the LHC will continue taking data until 159 00:06:18,665 --> 00:06:20,764 halfway through 2026. 160 00:06:21,064 --> 00:06:23,865 And at the end, the June, 161 00:06:23,865 --> 00:06:26,185 we will have the final collisions of the 162 00:06:26,185 --> 00:06:27,805 LHC in its current incarnation, 163 00:06:28,819 --> 00:06:32,020 and start a long shutdown period during which 164 00:06:32,020 --> 00:06:32,680 the accelerator 165 00:06:33,540 --> 00:06:35,879 and ATLAS and CMS experiments are upgraded. 166 00:06:36,339 --> 00:06:38,580 We're expecting that we will start taking data 167 00:06:38,580 --> 00:06:40,279 again in 2030, 168 00:06:40,900 --> 00:06:42,439 and the next run period 169 00:06:42,774 --> 00:06:45,274 of the LHC so called run four, 170 00:06:45,735 --> 00:06:48,235 will continue until 2033 171 00:06:48,535 --> 00:06:51,014 when there will be another long shutdown, which 172 00:06:51,014 --> 00:06:54,474 will allow the other two experiments, including LHCb, 173 00:06:54,774 --> 00:06:55,595 to be upgraded. 174 00:06:56,889 --> 00:06:58,650 And and just for our listeners who are 175 00:06:58,650 --> 00:07:01,290 not, I suppose, you know, sort of up 176 00:07:01,290 --> 00:07:04,009 on the lingo of particle physics, the the 177 00:07:04,009 --> 00:07:04,750 high luminosity, 178 00:07:05,770 --> 00:07:08,270 essentially, that means that you're going to be 179 00:07:08,569 --> 00:07:09,069 colliding 180 00:07:09,774 --> 00:07:12,574 many more protons. So you're going to be 181 00:07:12,975 --> 00:07:15,134 you're going to have to your detector is 182 00:07:15,134 --> 00:07:16,274 going to have to process 183 00:07:16,654 --> 00:07:17,714 many more collisions. 184 00:07:18,415 --> 00:07:18,735 And, 185 00:07:19,454 --> 00:07:22,274 that means that you probably will see 186 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:24,060 some rare interactions 187 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,680 that you couldn't see before. Is that a 188 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:27,740 sort of a fair 189 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:28,620 assessment? 190 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,920 Yeah. Absolutely. So, luminosity, I think most people 191 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,160 will be familiar with the the word in 192 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,480 the the context of how bright a light 193 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,004 is. But in the context of particle colliders, 194 00:07:40,384 --> 00:07:43,665 it's, essentially how bright the beams are. So 195 00:07:43,665 --> 00:07:45,125 as we collide together, 196 00:07:46,064 --> 00:07:48,544 beams at higher luminosity, that means that we 197 00:07:48,544 --> 00:07:49,605 get more collisions 198 00:07:50,225 --> 00:07:52,305 and, a higher rate of of data to 199 00:07:52,305 --> 00:07:52,829 be processed. 200 00:07:53,389 --> 00:07:55,709 So that allows us, as you said, to 201 00:07:55,709 --> 00:07:58,589 see rarer processes that we're not able to 202 00:07:58,589 --> 00:08:00,909 see, but it also allows us to collect 203 00:08:00,909 --> 00:08:04,370 more data and, make measurements at higher precision. 204 00:08:04,829 --> 00:08:07,729 And that's really important in particle physics because, 205 00:08:08,185 --> 00:08:08,685 essentially, 206 00:08:08,985 --> 00:08:11,004 these particle colliders are microscopes 207 00:08:11,384 --> 00:08:13,485 to look at nature at the the smallest 208 00:08:13,545 --> 00:08:14,045 scales. 209 00:08:14,665 --> 00:08:16,365 And increasing the luminosity 210 00:08:16,904 --> 00:08:19,805 is like improving the resolution of your microscope. 211 00:08:19,865 --> 00:08:22,660 So it allows to see things at, even 212 00:08:22,660 --> 00:08:25,220 smaller scales compared to to what has been 213 00:08:25,220 --> 00:08:27,060 present to date. So there is a a 214 00:08:27,060 --> 00:08:27,879 very exciting, 215 00:08:28,580 --> 00:08:30,199 range of, of physics 216 00:08:31,220 --> 00:08:33,399 challenges that we believe will be addressed, 217 00:08:33,875 --> 00:08:36,774 by the high luminosity upgrade of the LHC 218 00:08:36,835 --> 00:08:37,815 and its experiments. 219 00:08:39,235 --> 00:08:41,075 Okay. Well, that that that's a great, 220 00:08:41,794 --> 00:08:44,195 description of LHCb. I think it really sets 221 00:08:44,195 --> 00:08:44,855 the scene 222 00:08:45,235 --> 00:08:45,634 for, 223 00:08:46,914 --> 00:08:48,695 talk talking about funding. 224 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:50,720 And, I mean, I suppose you and your 225 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:51,220 colleagues, 226 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:53,139 over the past 227 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,580 month or so perhaps have sort of received 228 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:58,580 an unfortunate bombshell 229 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,920 when it comes to funding. It appears that 230 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:03,779 UK research and innovation, 231 00:09:04,485 --> 00:09:07,065 which pays for physics research in The UK, 232 00:09:07,845 --> 00:09:09,784 will not continue funding 233 00:09:10,164 --> 00:09:11,144 the high luminosity 234 00:09:11,605 --> 00:09:12,105 upgrade 235 00:09:12,644 --> 00:09:13,544 of LHCb. 236 00:09:15,205 --> 00:09:17,384 What is your current understanding 237 00:09:18,279 --> 00:09:19,100 of the funding 238 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:20,220 situation? 239 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,519 Yeah. So indeed, we've we've had this bad 240 00:09:24,519 --> 00:09:26,120 news. To explain it, I'm going to have 241 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:27,720 to go a little back a little bit 242 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,879 back into into the the history and and 243 00:09:29,879 --> 00:09:31,960 add a little bit more context to to 244 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:32,985 to what you've described. 245 00:09:33,945 --> 00:09:35,865 So the the most relevant part of the 246 00:09:35,865 --> 00:09:38,365 history here is that in 2022, 247 00:09:38,985 --> 00:09:41,784 UKRI announced that it would invest in the 248 00:09:41,784 --> 00:09:45,485 LHCb upgrade with an allocation of almost £50,000,000 249 00:09:45,625 --> 00:09:47,379 from its infrastructure fund. 250 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,399 Now the infrastructure fund at the time was 251 00:09:50,399 --> 00:09:52,399 a relatively new scheme that had been set 252 00:09:52,399 --> 00:09:55,279 up by UKRI intended to provide a long 253 00:09:55,279 --> 00:09:58,720 term stable source of funding for developments of 254 00:09:58,720 --> 00:09:59,620 new research, 255 00:10:00,035 --> 00:10:02,595 infrastructures, not only for physics, but across all 256 00:10:02,595 --> 00:10:04,695 of, UK, research. 257 00:10:06,434 --> 00:10:08,535 So this was a new way of allocating 258 00:10:08,595 --> 00:10:10,215 funding, whereas previously, 259 00:10:10,915 --> 00:10:14,215 UKRI distributes funds to the its research councils. 260 00:10:14,870 --> 00:10:16,089 And one of those, 261 00:10:16,389 --> 00:10:16,889 STFC, 262 00:10:17,669 --> 00:10:20,470 is the research council that supports particle physics 263 00:10:20,470 --> 00:10:23,129 as well as astronomy and and nuclear physics. 264 00:10:23,509 --> 00:10:25,190 We'll we'll we'll come back to that in 265 00:10:25,190 --> 00:10:25,850 a moment. 266 00:10:26,389 --> 00:10:28,309 Let me let me just mention also that 267 00:10:28,309 --> 00:10:29,289 the 50,000,000 268 00:10:29,355 --> 00:10:31,834 that was allocated from the infrastructure fund was 269 00:10:31,834 --> 00:10:33,214 to cover both capital, 270 00:10:33,595 --> 00:10:35,434 so that means the cost of the detector 271 00:10:35,434 --> 00:10:37,995 hardware, but also the staff to to build 272 00:10:37,995 --> 00:10:39,375 this upgraded detector. 273 00:10:40,235 --> 00:10:41,834 And the split between the two is around 274 00:10:41,834 --> 00:10:42,975 about $50.50. 275 00:10:44,110 --> 00:10:46,509 Now this very positive statement that we got 276 00:10:46,509 --> 00:10:48,029 in in 2022 277 00:10:48,029 --> 00:10:49,490 allowed UK scientists, 278 00:10:49,870 --> 00:10:53,569 including myself, to really take, leadership roles shaping 279 00:10:53,629 --> 00:10:55,870 the international project and and the design of 280 00:10:55,870 --> 00:10:56,610 the overall, 281 00:10:57,335 --> 00:10:58,634 international LHCb 282 00:10:59,014 --> 00:10:59,514 upgrade, 283 00:11:00,375 --> 00:11:03,495 and bringing our international partners on board. And 284 00:11:03,495 --> 00:11:05,415 this had actually been really successful. By the 285 00:11:05,415 --> 00:11:06,615 2025, 286 00:11:06,615 --> 00:11:09,254 we had all major international partners agreeing to 287 00:11:09,254 --> 00:11:11,779 contribute to this project, which meant that in 288 00:11:11,779 --> 00:11:14,440 addition to The UK capital investment, we had 289 00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:15,940 over a £100,000,000 290 00:11:15,940 --> 00:11:17,080 worth of, 291 00:11:18,419 --> 00:11:20,759 contributions from other countries essentially, 292 00:11:21,379 --> 00:11:23,459 more or less signed up, and ready to 293 00:11:23,459 --> 00:11:23,865 go. 294 00:11:24,345 --> 00:11:26,345 This is great news for The UK. This 295 00:11:26,345 --> 00:11:28,584 is a UK led project at The UK's 296 00:11:28,584 --> 00:11:31,565 lab for particle physics because remember that CERN 297 00:11:31,784 --> 00:11:34,184 is our lab that we operate together with 298 00:11:34,184 --> 00:11:35,164 with our partners. 299 00:11:36,230 --> 00:11:37,990 So things were looking pretty good. 300 00:11:38,550 --> 00:11:40,470 We were planning to move on to preparing 301 00:11:40,470 --> 00:11:43,430 detailed technical design reports on the subdetectors during 302 00:11:43,430 --> 00:11:44,389 2026. 303 00:11:44,389 --> 00:11:46,550 That's a a necessary step before we move 304 00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:48,809 on to the construction phase of the project. 305 00:11:50,144 --> 00:11:50,644 However, 306 00:11:51,264 --> 00:11:53,904 on the 12/19/2025, 307 00:11:54,065 --> 00:11:57,024 we received letters from the chief executive of 308 00:11:57,024 --> 00:11:57,524 UKRI, 309 00:11:57,985 --> 00:11:58,965 Sir Ian Chapman, 310 00:11:59,345 --> 00:12:01,825 stating that the infrastructure fund investment in the 311 00:12:01,825 --> 00:12:03,600 LHEB upgrade was, 312 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,259 to use his words, no longer prioritized. 313 00:12:07,279 --> 00:12:09,839 This was a complete shock to us. Not 314 00:12:09,839 --> 00:12:12,339 only were we working on LHEB, 315 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:13,459 not consulted, 316 00:12:14,639 --> 00:12:16,179 the advisory bodies 317 00:12:16,644 --> 00:12:17,225 for STFC, 318 00:12:18,245 --> 00:12:20,884 which had previously prioritized the project were not 319 00:12:20,884 --> 00:12:21,384 consulted, 320 00:12:21,845 --> 00:12:23,544 and even CERN management, 321 00:12:24,245 --> 00:12:26,024 have not, been consulted. 322 00:12:27,524 --> 00:12:28,004 So, 323 00:12:28,644 --> 00:12:31,225 we didn't even know that the the funding 324 00:12:31,365 --> 00:12:33,419 was at risk. We didn't know that any 325 00:12:33,419 --> 00:12:35,200 kind of review was going on. 326 00:12:35,580 --> 00:12:37,339 If we had have known, we would have 327 00:12:37,339 --> 00:12:39,360 still been very confident of continuation 328 00:12:40,059 --> 00:12:42,059 since the progress on the product has been 329 00:12:42,059 --> 00:12:44,845 so successful. And indeed, the case for investment 330 00:12:44,904 --> 00:12:47,065 is, if anything, even stronger than it was 331 00:12:47,065 --> 00:12:48,444 in 2022, 332 00:12:48,745 --> 00:12:50,444 when the funding was was awarded. 333 00:12:51,544 --> 00:12:53,384 So it's been a big shock, and we've 334 00:12:53,384 --> 00:12:55,625 been working to try to to understand the 335 00:12:55,625 --> 00:12:59,029 situation. Our current understanding of the situation well, 336 00:12:59,029 --> 00:13:01,029 there's many aspects to this, but I'll try 337 00:13:01,029 --> 00:13:02,730 to to keep it relatively brief. 338 00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:05,190 So we know that the LHCb upgrade was 339 00:13:05,190 --> 00:13:08,230 one of four, infrastructure fund projects that have 340 00:13:08,230 --> 00:13:08,730 been 341 00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:09,610 deprioritized 342 00:13:10,309 --> 00:13:12,649 or to use a simpler word, cut. 343 00:13:13,725 --> 00:13:16,225 Three of those are STFC projects, 344 00:13:16,764 --> 00:13:18,924 and two of those are within the area 345 00:13:18,924 --> 00:13:21,485 of particle physics, astronomy, and nuclear physics, which 346 00:13:21,485 --> 00:13:24,285 we collectively refer to as PPAN. The other 347 00:13:24,285 --> 00:13:25,259 one, by the way, 348 00:13:25,660 --> 00:13:28,379 is for UK contribution to the electron ion 349 00:13:28,379 --> 00:13:31,200 collider, which is proposed, in in America. 350 00:13:31,899 --> 00:13:33,679 So it appears to have been an intentional 351 00:13:33,740 --> 00:13:36,540 choice by UKRI to reduce the number of 352 00:13:36,540 --> 00:13:37,679 STFC projects. 353 00:13:38,195 --> 00:13:39,794 And the reason for that seems to be 354 00:13:39,794 --> 00:13:42,615 concerns that STFC had taken on too much, 355 00:13:43,075 --> 00:13:46,534 although, projects were only approved together with UKRI. 356 00:13:46,995 --> 00:13:48,595 And in particular, it seems to be a 357 00:13:48,595 --> 00:13:50,934 concern that the running costs of new facilities, 358 00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:53,959 might be more than had previously been anticipated, 359 00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:56,419 and that could be, become unaffordable due to 360 00:13:56,419 --> 00:13:58,679 increased staff and electricity costs. 361 00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:02,179 These reasons, however, don't explain why it is 362 00:14:02,179 --> 00:14:04,980 that the PPAN projects in particular have been 363 00:14:04,980 --> 00:14:05,480 targeted 364 00:14:06,134 --> 00:14:07,975 and really make no sense at all as 365 00:14:07,975 --> 00:14:11,415 regards the LHB upgrade because perhaps uniquely amongst 366 00:14:11,415 --> 00:14:12,554 the, projects, 367 00:14:12,855 --> 00:14:14,934 this is one where The UK is already 368 00:14:14,934 --> 00:14:17,335 committed to paying the dominant part of the 369 00:14:17,335 --> 00:14:19,960 running costs. Cost because The UK is committed 370 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:21,720 to paying the CERN subscription, 371 00:14:22,100 --> 00:14:24,519 which funds the operation of the accelerator, 372 00:14:25,620 --> 00:14:28,019 which is essentially what we need in order 373 00:14:28,019 --> 00:14:29,779 to to to be able to do the 374 00:14:29,779 --> 00:14:31,940 LHCb upgrade. In fact, it will be running 375 00:14:31,940 --> 00:14:32,440 anyway, 376 00:14:33,004 --> 00:14:34,865 for the, Atlas and CMS, 377 00:14:35,485 --> 00:14:35,985 experiments. 378 00:14:36,764 --> 00:14:39,904 Also, the LHCb upgrade project is on budget. 379 00:14:40,205 --> 00:14:43,404 So although we understand that there are concerns 380 00:14:43,404 --> 00:14:45,105 on how public money is invested 381 00:14:45,509 --> 00:14:47,850 and, funding is always tied, 382 00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:51,350 the funding going into UKRI is at a 383 00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:52,250 record high, 384 00:14:52,710 --> 00:14:55,350 because the government recognizes the importance of research 385 00:14:55,350 --> 00:14:56,090 and innovation, 386 00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:58,330 and how it contributes to the economy. 387 00:14:58,804 --> 00:15:00,485 So these cuts don't appear to have been 388 00:15:00,485 --> 00:15:03,684 motivated by purely financial reasons, and it's really 389 00:15:03,684 --> 00:15:05,845 very hard to to understand what the reason 390 00:15:05,845 --> 00:15:06,664 actually was. 391 00:15:07,204 --> 00:15:09,444 We've been told by UKRI that the decision 392 00:15:09,444 --> 00:15:11,524 is final, but we still hope that sense 393 00:15:11,524 --> 00:15:12,345 might prevail. 394 00:15:13,779 --> 00:15:16,419 And, Tim, The UK is a is a 395 00:15:16,419 --> 00:15:17,799 a big contributor 396 00:15:18,259 --> 00:15:18,919 to CERN, 397 00:15:20,179 --> 00:15:21,639 probably one of the biggest. 398 00:15:22,019 --> 00:15:23,960 So I'm guessing that 399 00:15:24,580 --> 00:15:27,480 that taking this money out of the LHCb 400 00:15:27,860 --> 00:15:28,360 upgrade 401 00:15:29,144 --> 00:15:29,644 budget 402 00:15:30,504 --> 00:15:31,704 is is is going to be a big 403 00:15:31,704 --> 00:15:32,204 problem, 404 00:15:32,584 --> 00:15:35,625 not just for for UK physicists, but also 405 00:15:35,625 --> 00:15:36,125 for 406 00:15:36,504 --> 00:15:37,804 any particle physicist, 407 00:15:38,664 --> 00:15:40,284 who works on the experiment. 408 00:15:40,824 --> 00:15:42,629 Have you have you been able to, you 409 00:15:42,629 --> 00:15:44,330 know, sort of talk to your, 410 00:15:45,589 --> 00:15:47,990 colleagues and and work out what this is 411 00:15:47,990 --> 00:15:50,789 going to mean for the LHCb upgrade? Is 412 00:15:50,789 --> 00:15:52,549 it is it just gonna have to not 413 00:15:52,549 --> 00:15:53,049 happen? 414 00:15:53,504 --> 00:15:54,004 So, 415 00:15:55,504 --> 00:15:57,904 so indeed so there's several, aspects to that. 416 00:15:57,904 --> 00:15:59,285 Let me, first of all, 417 00:15:59,904 --> 00:16:02,085 put it in context of the CERN subscription. 418 00:16:02,144 --> 00:16:03,904 So indeed that The UK is one of 419 00:16:03,904 --> 00:16:06,065 the largest contributors to CERN through the the 420 00:16:06,065 --> 00:16:06,884 CERN subscription, 421 00:16:07,409 --> 00:16:09,990 and that pays for the construction and operation 422 00:16:10,209 --> 00:16:12,629 of the accelerators, but it doesn't pay 423 00:16:13,009 --> 00:16:16,129 for, for the experiments apart from, essential support 424 00:16:16,129 --> 00:16:18,209 to the experiments which is provided by by 425 00:16:18,209 --> 00:16:21,164 the host lab. So experiments are funded by, 426 00:16:21,644 --> 00:16:23,964 member states and and other partners coming on 427 00:16:23,964 --> 00:16:24,945 board and agreeing, 428 00:16:25,404 --> 00:16:27,164 to make contributions to them, and that was 429 00:16:27,164 --> 00:16:29,024 the process that we were going from. 430 00:16:29,404 --> 00:16:31,664 And as you said, within LHCb, 431 00:16:32,044 --> 00:16:34,284 The UK is a major partner. And as 432 00:16:34,284 --> 00:16:36,784 I've described previously, the entire plans 433 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,399 for the LHB upgrade have been, 434 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,259 built essentially around, this UK contribution. 435 00:16:44,519 --> 00:16:47,340 So the infrastructure fund award was to cover 436 00:16:47,399 --> 00:16:48,860 both the capital contribution 437 00:16:49,345 --> 00:16:51,845 and for project staff to construct the detector. 438 00:16:52,304 --> 00:16:53,825 And it's important to stress that this is 439 00:16:53,825 --> 00:16:55,985 not money that is just sent as a 440 00:16:55,985 --> 00:16:58,065 check to to CERN. This is money that 441 00:16:58,065 --> 00:16:59,365 will be spent predominantly, 442 00:17:00,384 --> 00:17:02,325 via grants in The UK institutes. 443 00:17:02,970 --> 00:17:05,950 There's 11 universities in the REL National Laboratory 444 00:17:06,089 --> 00:17:08,029 that are involved, in in LHEB. 445 00:17:08,569 --> 00:17:10,329 And in addition, we would have been working 446 00:17:10,329 --> 00:17:12,589 with UK industry in order to to maximize 447 00:17:12,650 --> 00:17:14,650 the the benefit and constructing as much of 448 00:17:14,650 --> 00:17:16,490 the the detector as we would, here in 449 00:17:16,490 --> 00:17:17,069 The UK. 450 00:17:17,535 --> 00:17:20,335 The upgrade project would have provided opportunities for 451 00:17:20,335 --> 00:17:22,755 hundreds of students to be involved in developing 452 00:17:22,815 --> 00:17:25,695 cutting edge technologies, both in the the detector 453 00:17:25,695 --> 00:17:27,474 hardware and in in the software. 454 00:17:27,934 --> 00:17:30,015 And it's also worth noting that the majority 455 00:17:30,015 --> 00:17:32,335 of our students then take those skills on 456 00:17:32,335 --> 00:17:34,869 into into industry at great benefit to the 457 00:17:34,869 --> 00:17:35,369 economy. 458 00:17:36,230 --> 00:17:39,349 Specifically within The UK for, for the upgrade, 459 00:17:39,349 --> 00:17:41,589 we were interested in the development of detectors 460 00:17:41,589 --> 00:17:43,609 with ultrafast timing resolution, 461 00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:48,009 developing novel silicon detector systems with reduced material, 462 00:17:48,654 --> 00:17:49,875 and in managing 463 00:17:50,174 --> 00:17:50,914 high throughput, 464 00:17:51,375 --> 00:17:52,194 data processing. 465 00:17:52,815 --> 00:17:53,855 So without this, 466 00:17:54,414 --> 00:17:57,454 UK contribution, your question was, would the future 467 00:17:57,454 --> 00:17:59,154 of LHEB be in jeopardy? 468 00:17:59,694 --> 00:18:01,950 The answer to that, unfortunately, is is yes. 469 00:18:02,509 --> 00:18:05,309 The entire project is developed around The UK 470 00:18:05,309 --> 00:18:07,710 contribution. So if that's completely removed, the project 471 00:18:07,710 --> 00:18:08,929 will simply collapse. 472 00:18:09,869 --> 00:18:11,730 And you might wonder, well, surely, 473 00:18:12,109 --> 00:18:14,349 other countries could step in and and cover 474 00:18:14,349 --> 00:18:17,304 these essential roles. And with enough time, that 475 00:18:17,304 --> 00:18:18,284 would be possible. 476 00:18:18,984 --> 00:18:21,065 But as I mentioned earlier, our plan was 477 00:18:21,065 --> 00:18:23,865 to move to complete technical design reports this 478 00:18:23,865 --> 00:18:26,184 year and to start the construction phase next 479 00:18:26,184 --> 00:18:28,105 year. And we simply now do not have 480 00:18:28,105 --> 00:18:30,184 enough time to develop new plans that we 481 00:18:30,184 --> 00:18:32,159 would be able to to manage without that, 482 00:18:32,159 --> 00:18:34,079 and the time scale can't be changed because 483 00:18:34,079 --> 00:18:36,339 it's fixed by the the LHC schedule. 484 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:37,859 So 485 00:18:38,399 --> 00:18:41,119 the full exploitation of the LHC is that 486 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:42,179 the highest priority 487 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,140 in particle physics in both the the European 488 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:46,640 strategy, which is recently, 489 00:18:47,144 --> 00:18:49,705 updated and in The UK roadmap. And the 490 00:18:49,705 --> 00:18:52,184 LHCb upgrade is needed to achieve that because 491 00:18:52,184 --> 00:18:55,404 of the uniqueness of the LHCb physics program. 492 00:18:55,545 --> 00:18:57,305 So it's really essential that we find a 493 00:18:57,305 --> 00:18:59,465 solution that allows The UK to continue to 494 00:18:59,465 --> 00:19:00,125 be involved. 495 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,759 And and so what does that mean for 496 00:19:02,759 --> 00:19:05,500 you and all your colleagues in The UK? 497 00:19:05,559 --> 00:19:08,200 You know, senior people like you right down 498 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:08,700 to, 499 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,740 graduate students. Does that I mean, 500 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:13,880 if you're not if The UK isn't coming 501 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:15,819 up with the money, does that mean that 502 00:19:16,605 --> 00:19:19,085 LHCB is going to say, you know, sorry, 503 00:19:19,085 --> 00:19:19,585 Tim. 504 00:19:20,765 --> 00:19:21,345 The British 505 00:19:21,644 --> 00:19:22,144 can't 506 00:19:22,605 --> 00:19:24,765 work on the experiment anymore. Is it is 507 00:19:24,765 --> 00:19:25,744 it that harsh, 508 00:19:26,204 --> 00:19:28,384 or is there going to be a workaround? 509 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:31,920 Well, it could be that harsh, and that's 510 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,420 what we're working still to try to understand. 511 00:19:34,799 --> 00:19:38,180 So even without funding from the UKRI infrastructure 512 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,299 fund, in principle, there could be funding through 513 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:41,859 STFC, 514 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,420 which has been the the sort of historic 515 00:19:44,559 --> 00:19:46,634 way that these types of projects have been 516 00:19:46,634 --> 00:19:47,134 funded. 517 00:19:47,835 --> 00:19:48,494 But, unfortunately, 518 00:19:49,035 --> 00:19:51,115 at the same time as the infrastructure fund 519 00:19:51,115 --> 00:19:52,174 project is cut, 520 00:19:52,555 --> 00:19:54,255 UKRI has asked STFC 521 00:19:54,555 --> 00:19:57,535 to to make 30% cuts to its PPAN 522 00:19:57,595 --> 00:19:59,700 program in order to deal with what it's 523 00:19:59,859 --> 00:20:01,159 calling cost pressures. 524 00:20:01,940 --> 00:20:05,220 Now, again, it's unclear exactly what is causing 525 00:20:05,220 --> 00:20:07,220 these cost pressures, but it seems to be 526 00:20:07,220 --> 00:20:10,039 mostly staff and electricity costs at the facilities. 527 00:20:11,059 --> 00:20:13,619 But whatever the reason is, the PPAN program 528 00:20:13,619 --> 00:20:16,255 is facing these cuts at the level of 529 00:20:16,255 --> 00:20:17,234 of 30%. 530 00:20:17,934 --> 00:20:20,914 And since the particle physics, astronomy, and nuclear 531 00:20:21,454 --> 00:20:23,714 projects tend to have long timescales, 532 00:20:24,734 --> 00:20:26,914 the majority of these funds are are committed 533 00:20:27,775 --> 00:20:29,295 in the the future, at least for the 534 00:20:29,295 --> 00:20:30,275 next few years, 535 00:20:31,009 --> 00:20:32,069 through international, 536 00:20:32,929 --> 00:20:33,429 agreements. 537 00:20:33,970 --> 00:20:35,349 So it is not straightforward, 538 00:20:36,210 --> 00:20:37,730 to make cuts at that scale. In fact, 539 00:20:37,730 --> 00:20:40,450 it's impossible to make cuts without reneging on 540 00:20:40,450 --> 00:20:41,829 those international commitments. 541 00:20:42,609 --> 00:20:44,505 So in this context, it's clearly going to 542 00:20:44,505 --> 00:20:45,724 be extremely challenging 543 00:20:46,105 --> 00:20:48,345 for SDFC to find a way to support 544 00:20:48,345 --> 00:20:49,005 the upgrade. 545 00:20:49,865 --> 00:20:52,525 That means that, yes, unfortunately, we are facing 546 00:20:52,984 --> 00:20:55,085 a potentially a nightmare scenario 547 00:20:55,545 --> 00:20:57,865 where the withdrawal of the infrastructure fund award 548 00:20:57,865 --> 00:21:00,630 results in the LHCb upgrade collapsing and hence 549 00:21:00,630 --> 00:21:02,809 the early termination of of LHCb 550 00:21:03,349 --> 00:21:05,910 because the current detector will only be able 551 00:21:05,910 --> 00:21:08,890 to operate up until 2033, 552 00:21:09,269 --> 00:21:10,230 when it is, 553 00:21:10,630 --> 00:21:12,390 expected it will reach its end of life 554 00:21:12,390 --> 00:21:13,849 due to the radiation damage. 555 00:21:14,615 --> 00:21:16,855 This would mean that the top priority of 556 00:21:16,855 --> 00:21:19,494 The UK and European particle physics roadmaps is 557 00:21:19,494 --> 00:21:22,315 not achieved, and it would be completely unprecedented 558 00:21:22,615 --> 00:21:24,535 for a CERN member state to cause the 559 00:21:24,535 --> 00:21:27,015 collapse of a CERN flagship experiment in this 560 00:21:27,015 --> 00:21:29,509 way. So clearly, this will be a disaster 561 00:21:29,809 --> 00:21:31,829 for UK science diplomacy. 562 00:21:32,849 --> 00:21:36,450 It's gonna also have potentially huge ramifications for 563 00:21:36,450 --> 00:21:38,609 particle physics in general, in particular in The 564 00:21:38,609 --> 00:21:41,169 UK, as the LHB upgrade is the only 565 00:21:41,169 --> 00:21:43,644 major construction project on the timescale of the 566 00:21:43,644 --> 00:21:44,705 mid twenty thirties. 567 00:21:45,404 --> 00:21:47,484 Without this project, it's gonna be really difficult 568 00:21:47,484 --> 00:21:49,904 to maintain the continuity of expertise 569 00:21:50,205 --> 00:21:52,865 in building and operating particle physics detectors. 570 00:21:53,244 --> 00:21:55,325 And once those skills are lost, they're very, 571 00:21:55,325 --> 00:21:56,625 very difficult to regain. 572 00:21:57,329 --> 00:22:00,230 More generally, if 30% cuts to PPAN 573 00:22:00,690 --> 00:22:01,750 really are enacted, 574 00:22:02,210 --> 00:22:03,809 this will be a major loss of income 575 00:22:03,809 --> 00:22:06,210 to university physics departments, which as we know 576 00:22:06,210 --> 00:22:09,429 are already struggling with many, many financial challenges. 577 00:22:09,890 --> 00:22:12,265 In fact, there was a report published by 578 00:22:12,265 --> 00:22:14,105 the Institute of Physics towards the end of 579 00:22:14,105 --> 00:22:16,505 last year that stated that a quarter of 580 00:22:16,505 --> 00:22:18,845 UK physics departments are at risk of closure, 581 00:22:18,985 --> 00:22:21,705 and that was before taking these potential cuts 582 00:22:21,705 --> 00:22:22,525 into consideration. 583 00:22:22,825 --> 00:22:25,384 Clearly, those can only make the situation even 584 00:22:25,384 --> 00:22:25,884 worse. 585 00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:28,559 So, Tim, are you and your colleagues, 586 00:22:29,259 --> 00:22:30,720 I'm guessing you're organizing 587 00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:32,880 to fight this? 588 00:22:33,339 --> 00:22:33,659 What, 589 00:22:34,220 --> 00:22:35,980 I mean, can you reveal any of your 590 00:22:35,980 --> 00:22:38,779 plans to to try to get this decision 591 00:22:38,779 --> 00:22:41,855 reversed or or changed or, you know, find 592 00:22:41,855 --> 00:22:42,914 some sort of funding? 593 00:22:45,294 --> 00:22:48,015 Yeah. I would, prefer to say that rather 594 00:22:48,015 --> 00:22:50,835 than than fighting, we're trying to work together 595 00:22:51,054 --> 00:22:53,775 with STFC and UKRI in order to to 596 00:22:53,775 --> 00:22:55,869 find a solution. Because I we want to 597 00:22:55,869 --> 00:22:56,369 avoid 598 00:22:56,990 --> 00:22:59,730 the potentially catastrophic outcomes that I've mentioned, 599 00:23:00,190 --> 00:23:02,130 and we don't believe that these are intentional 600 00:23:02,349 --> 00:23:05,329 consequences of decisions being made at UKRI. 601 00:23:06,109 --> 00:23:08,750 So this means not only within LHCb, but 602 00:23:08,750 --> 00:23:11,125 in the the the particle physics and astronomy 603 00:23:11,125 --> 00:23:13,465 and nuclear physics communities more more broadly. 604 00:23:14,244 --> 00:23:15,765 Now, of course, we we hope that the 605 00:23:15,765 --> 00:23:18,164 the cuts, specifically, that the cut of the 606 00:23:18,164 --> 00:23:18,664 LHCb 607 00:23:18,965 --> 00:23:20,644 upgrade, we hope that those cuts can be 608 00:23:20,644 --> 00:23:21,144 reversed. 609 00:23:22,420 --> 00:23:24,580 And again, it really seems impossible to believe 610 00:23:24,580 --> 00:23:26,420 that that this could be an intended consequence 611 00:23:26,420 --> 00:23:28,180 of decisions that have been made. But if 612 00:23:28,180 --> 00:23:29,940 it turns out that the solution is is 613 00:23:29,940 --> 00:23:31,860 something different to that, then then so be 614 00:23:31,860 --> 00:23:33,720 it. So long as we can still find 615 00:23:34,295 --> 00:23:35,914 a way that we can continue 616 00:23:36,295 --> 00:23:37,434 with with with this project, 617 00:23:38,054 --> 00:23:38,795 and avoid, 618 00:23:39,174 --> 00:23:40,954 all of the the the negative, 619 00:23:42,694 --> 00:23:45,194 possible outcomes which I've discussed previously. 620 00:23:46,230 --> 00:23:48,069 In fact, you know, there's reasons for for 621 00:23:48,069 --> 00:23:50,630 optimism. All of the the the chief executive 622 00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:53,349 of UKRI, Soreen Chapman, as I mentioned earlier, 623 00:23:53,349 --> 00:23:55,829 but also the science minister, Claude Valence, and 624 00:23:55,829 --> 00:23:57,750 indeed the secretary of state for science and 625 00:23:57,750 --> 00:23:58,809 innovation and technology, 626 00:23:59,255 --> 00:24:01,174 which is Liz Kendall, all of them have 627 00:24:01,174 --> 00:24:04,055 separately stated that curiosity driven science should be 628 00:24:04,055 --> 00:24:05,434 protected in particular 629 00:24:05,735 --> 00:24:07,835 in fields where we are world leading. 630 00:24:08,934 --> 00:24:11,174 That sounds like a a very good ruling 631 00:24:11,174 --> 00:24:13,414 principle to me. I would hope everybody would 632 00:24:13,414 --> 00:24:16,299 agree with that. And clearly, LHCb is a 633 00:24:16,299 --> 00:24:20,400 great example of world leading curiosity driven science 634 00:24:20,779 --> 00:24:23,440 being led within The UK. It's a genuine 635 00:24:23,579 --> 00:24:25,119 UK science success story. 636 00:24:25,980 --> 00:24:28,924 We want to make sure that, LHEB in 637 00:24:28,924 --> 00:24:31,884 particular, but PPAM Science also more generally, do 638 00:24:31,884 --> 00:24:33,964 not become an exception to this rule that 639 00:24:33,964 --> 00:24:37,005 The UK wants to remain world leading in 640 00:24:37,005 --> 00:24:38,384 curiosity driven science. 641 00:24:39,164 --> 00:24:41,085 And, Tim, I wanna end this interview on 642 00:24:41,085 --> 00:24:42,305 a positive note. 643 00:24:42,890 --> 00:24:44,669 I know here at Physics World, 644 00:24:45,210 --> 00:24:46,669 we've covered a lot 645 00:24:47,450 --> 00:24:49,230 of papers that LHCb 646 00:24:49,690 --> 00:24:52,429 has published over the past decade or so. 647 00:24:53,049 --> 00:24:53,789 In particular, 648 00:24:56,095 --> 00:24:57,695 a a lot of work has come out 649 00:24:57,695 --> 00:24:59,154 of the experiment regarding 650 00:24:59,775 --> 00:25:02,255 exotic hadrons. I think you you you mentioned 651 00:25:02,255 --> 00:25:02,755 them, 652 00:25:03,215 --> 00:25:05,555 earlier. Can you just give us a flavor 653 00:25:05,934 --> 00:25:06,335 of, 654 00:25:07,055 --> 00:25:08,975 of some of that research and and some 655 00:25:08,975 --> 00:25:09,539 of the 656 00:25:09,940 --> 00:25:12,820 exotic particles that you've found. These are these 657 00:25:12,820 --> 00:25:15,619 are very heavy particles with more than three 658 00:25:15,619 --> 00:25:16,840 quarks, aren't they? 659 00:25:17,380 --> 00:25:19,380 Yeah. That's right. So in fact, if I 660 00:25:19,380 --> 00:25:20,980 can, let me first of all give you 661 00:25:20,980 --> 00:25:22,820 some of examples of some of the the 662 00:25:22,820 --> 00:25:25,785 research highlights that came out during 2025. 663 00:25:26,565 --> 00:25:28,404 And then perhaps after that, we can talk 664 00:25:28,404 --> 00:25:30,005 a bit about what what could come in 665 00:25:30,005 --> 00:25:31,384 the future with the upgraded 666 00:25:31,684 --> 00:25:33,144 LHEB because the, 667 00:25:33,684 --> 00:25:36,404 part about exotic hadrons is is particularly relevant 668 00:25:36,404 --> 00:25:37,465 for for the upgrade. 669 00:25:38,089 --> 00:25:40,170 But during 2025, we had a number of 670 00:25:40,170 --> 00:25:41,950 of really major, results. 671 00:25:42,250 --> 00:25:44,269 So one was the first discovery 672 00:25:44,570 --> 00:25:47,470 of CP violation in in baryon decays. 673 00:25:48,089 --> 00:25:49,230 So CP violation 674 00:25:49,529 --> 00:25:51,390 is, essentially asymmetry 675 00:25:51,690 --> 00:25:52,190 between 676 00:25:52,525 --> 00:25:55,164 matter and antimatter. And as I mentioned, right 677 00:25:55,164 --> 00:25:57,025 near the start of our conversation, 678 00:25:57,484 --> 00:25:59,804 that's something which is really important to to 679 00:25:59,804 --> 00:26:00,304 understand, 680 00:26:00,684 --> 00:26:03,005 the universe where the the universe, which is 681 00:26:03,005 --> 00:26:05,724 essentially made up, predominantly most of the mass 682 00:26:05,724 --> 00:26:07,904 in the universe is is from from baryons, 683 00:26:08,349 --> 00:26:10,750 at least, of the visible matter. We're not 684 00:26:10,750 --> 00:26:12,509 talking about dark matter, but for the time 685 00:26:12,509 --> 00:26:13,009 being. 686 00:26:14,829 --> 00:26:17,490 And there is an asymmetry that we see 687 00:26:17,549 --> 00:26:19,490 only baryons and not antibaryons 688 00:26:20,190 --> 00:26:21,169 naturally occurring, 689 00:26:21,549 --> 00:26:22,454 in in the universe. 690 00:26:23,414 --> 00:26:25,654 So CP violation is essential to this, but 691 00:26:25,654 --> 00:26:28,615 all previous observations of CP violation going back 692 00:26:28,615 --> 00:26:31,174 to the the first discovery in 1964 693 00:26:31,174 --> 00:26:32,634 had involved mesons 694 00:26:33,095 --> 00:26:35,654 rather than baryons. So mesons are particles that 695 00:26:35,654 --> 00:26:36,934 are made up of a quark and an 696 00:26:36,934 --> 00:26:37,434 antiquark, 697 00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:41,509 whereas baryons involve three quarks and antibaryons, three 698 00:26:41,509 --> 00:26:42,009 antiquarks. 699 00:26:43,349 --> 00:26:45,429 So since the asymmetry of the universe is 700 00:26:45,429 --> 00:26:47,750 in baryons, there should also be CP violation 701 00:26:47,750 --> 00:26:49,269 in baryons. And now we've seen this for 702 00:26:49,269 --> 00:26:50,630 the first time. And in fact, this is 703 00:26:50,630 --> 00:26:53,065 something a good example of the uniqueness of 704 00:26:53,065 --> 00:26:55,384 LHEB. This is the only experiment that that 705 00:26:55,384 --> 00:26:56,845 can make those types of measurements. 706 00:26:57,784 --> 00:26:59,865 Another highlight is a result which came out 707 00:26:59,865 --> 00:27:01,304 towards the end of last year. It was 708 00:27:01,304 --> 00:27:04,904 an updated study of, a particularly interesting rare 709 00:27:04,904 --> 00:27:05,804 decay process 710 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,980 of a a neutral beam meson turning into 711 00:27:09,039 --> 00:27:09,539 a, 712 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:10,740 an excited, 713 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,460 kaon and, mu plus, mu minus. 714 00:27:13,759 --> 00:27:15,359 Now that may sound like a a lot 715 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,519 of particles, but this is a particularly interesting 716 00:27:17,519 --> 00:27:19,839 process to test the standard model because there 717 00:27:19,839 --> 00:27:20,500 are predictions 718 00:27:21,045 --> 00:27:21,545 for, 719 00:27:21,924 --> 00:27:24,825 the both the rates, but also the angular 720 00:27:24,965 --> 00:27:26,904 distributions of the decay products. 721 00:27:27,605 --> 00:27:30,005 And previous measurements had indicated that what we're 722 00:27:30,005 --> 00:27:33,125 actually measuring was not consistent with the standard 723 00:27:33,125 --> 00:27:33,900 model predictions. 724 00:27:34,299 --> 00:27:36,700 So it was really highly anticipated to update 725 00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:39,200 those measurements with, the data sample, 726 00:27:39,660 --> 00:27:42,160 that that we have, available until now. 727 00:27:42,539 --> 00:27:44,619 So we now have those new more precise 728 00:27:44,619 --> 00:27:46,785 measurements, and they confirm what we've seen before. 729 00:27:46,785 --> 00:27:46,825 There still seems to be this very intriguing 730 00:27:46,825 --> 00:27:47,339 tension between our measurements and the standard model 731 00:27:47,339 --> 00:27:47,839 predictions, 732 00:27:50,434 --> 00:27:52,134 intriguing tension between our measurements 733 00:27:52,434 --> 00:27:53,875 and the standard model predictions, but we still 734 00:27:53,875 --> 00:27:54,775 do need more data to 735 00:27:55,075 --> 00:27:56,434 be sure if the effect is due to 736 00:27:56,434 --> 00:27:59,795 something beyond the standard model and not from 737 00:27:59,795 --> 00:28:02,434 larger than expected corrections to the the standard 738 00:28:02,434 --> 00:28:03,654 model predictions. So 739 00:28:03,980 --> 00:28:06,140 So these are among the the results that 740 00:28:06,140 --> 00:28:07,980 led to perhaps the third and last highlight 741 00:28:07,980 --> 00:28:10,000 that I'd I'd I'd draw out, 742 00:28:10,380 --> 00:28:12,700 which was the award of the 2025 743 00:28:12,700 --> 00:28:14,480 breakthrough prize, in fundamental 744 00:28:14,779 --> 00:28:15,279 physics, 745 00:28:15,660 --> 00:28:17,740 which was this is sometimes called the the 746 00:28:17,740 --> 00:28:18,880 Oscars of science, 747 00:28:19,304 --> 00:28:22,204 and this prize was awarded to LHCb together, 748 00:28:22,585 --> 00:28:25,004 with the other three large LHC experiment, 749 00:28:25,464 --> 00:28:25,964 collaborations 750 00:28:26,984 --> 00:28:27,724 in recognition, 751 00:28:28,504 --> 00:28:31,384 of what had been achieved in, with the 752 00:28:31,384 --> 00:28:33,319 exploiting the data collected 753 00:28:33,619 --> 00:28:35,399 in in the first two runs 754 00:28:35,859 --> 00:28:37,319 of, of the LHC. 755 00:28:37,940 --> 00:28:40,119 But if I just add one more thing, 756 00:28:41,059 --> 00:28:43,059 we have also been taking data in the 757 00:28:43,059 --> 00:28:45,460 third run. And so perhaps even the most 758 00:28:45,460 --> 00:28:47,884 important news last year has been how successful 759 00:28:47,884 --> 00:28:50,284 this data taking has been, in the third 760 00:28:50,284 --> 00:28:52,204 run. Means the sample size that we have 761 00:28:52,204 --> 00:28:54,845 now and becoming available for analysis is at 762 00:28:54,845 --> 00:28:57,005 least a factor of four larger than in 763 00:28:57,005 --> 00:28:59,744 our publications to date. And in many processes, 764 00:28:59,804 --> 00:29:01,740 it's even a much larger factor. 765 00:29:02,220 --> 00:29:03,900 It's gonna take a while to convert the 766 00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:06,220 data into into measurements, in particular when we're 767 00:29:06,220 --> 00:29:08,299 talking about really precise measurements and we have 768 00:29:08,299 --> 00:29:08,960 to control 769 00:29:09,339 --> 00:29:10,480 systematic uncertainties, 770 00:29:11,740 --> 00:29:14,460 very, very carefully. But first results are starting 771 00:29:14,460 --> 00:29:15,994 to come through the pipeline, so you can 772 00:29:15,994 --> 00:29:18,075 look forward to many exciting new results coming 773 00:29:18,075 --> 00:29:19,695 later in 2026. 774 00:29:20,475 --> 00:29:22,955 And the future, Tim, what, what can we 775 00:29:22,955 --> 00:29:26,494 look look forward to for an upgraded LHCB? 776 00:29:28,119 --> 00:29:30,039 Yeah. So it's worth noting that even with 777 00:29:30,039 --> 00:29:32,200 this amazing performance and how well we've done 778 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,179 in data taking in 2024 and 2025, 779 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,799 we've not yet collected even 10% of the 780 00:29:37,799 --> 00:29:40,059 total sample that we'll be able to accumulate 781 00:29:40,119 --> 00:29:41,625 with the upgraded detector. 782 00:29:42,184 --> 00:29:44,585 So this larger data sample will not only 783 00:29:44,585 --> 00:29:46,984 allow us to advance the precision frontier, it 784 00:29:46,984 --> 00:29:48,585 means that we'll be able to do various 785 00:29:48,585 --> 00:29:50,285 things which are currently impossible. 786 00:29:50,904 --> 00:29:52,984 So let's bring this back to talk about 787 00:29:52,984 --> 00:29:55,625 the exotic hadrons, that that we talked about 788 00:29:55,625 --> 00:29:58,320 before. So we've discovered a number of exotic 789 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,580 hadrons, so called tetraquarks and pentaquarks, 790 00:30:01,119 --> 00:30:04,080 but so far these contain all contain charm 791 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,019 quarks and antiquarks. 792 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,680 With the LHCb upgrade, we expect to be 793 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,804 able to see the corresponding states that contain 794 00:30:11,804 --> 00:30:14,924 beauty quarks, and this will provide unique understanding 795 00:30:14,924 --> 00:30:17,164 of the binding force in in these particles. 796 00:30:17,164 --> 00:30:19,005 Being able to compare the states that we 797 00:30:19,005 --> 00:30:21,724 observe with charm to those with beauty will 798 00:30:21,724 --> 00:30:24,444 really give us unique insight into into what 799 00:30:24,444 --> 00:30:26,169 is going on with these exotic hadrons. 800 00:30:27,029 --> 00:30:28,710 Another great example of what we'll be able 801 00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:30,390 to do with the upgraded LHCb is that 802 00:30:30,390 --> 00:30:32,309 we can actually bring together these two main 803 00:30:32,309 --> 00:30:34,789 elements of our physics program. I've talked about 804 00:30:34,789 --> 00:30:37,349 CP violation and rare decays, and we'll be 805 00:30:37,349 --> 00:30:40,390 able to make CP violation measurements with rare 806 00:30:40,390 --> 00:30:40,890 decays. 807 00:30:41,465 --> 00:30:43,384 So one of the main highlights of the 808 00:30:43,384 --> 00:30:45,325 first phase of LHB was the discovery 809 00:30:45,785 --> 00:30:48,125 of the the decay of a a BS 810 00:30:48,345 --> 00:30:49,884 meson into two muons. 811 00:30:50,265 --> 00:30:52,585 This is particularly interesting because the final state 812 00:30:52,585 --> 00:30:55,130 only contains muons, but it's a very, very 813 00:30:55,130 --> 00:30:57,450 rare process occurs only a few times in 814 00:30:57,450 --> 00:30:59,390 every billion b s meson decays. 815 00:31:00,009 --> 00:31:02,490 Nonetheless, with the upgraded LHCb, we'll have a 816 00:31:02,490 --> 00:31:05,210 large enough data sample that will have thousands 817 00:31:05,210 --> 00:31:06,890 of these decays, and that will be enough 818 00:31:06,890 --> 00:31:09,369 to make CP violation measurements providing a new 819 00:31:09,369 --> 00:31:11,335 way to test the standard model. 820 00:31:12,275 --> 00:31:13,795 And if I can give just one more 821 00:31:13,795 --> 00:31:15,894 example Oh, go on. Go ahead. 822 00:31:16,674 --> 00:31:19,715 So LHEB is the is the, only experiment 823 00:31:19,715 --> 00:31:23,075 which can study CP violation in charm meson 824 00:31:23,075 --> 00:31:24,295 decays. This is another 825 00:31:25,059 --> 00:31:26,980 really huge result which has come out of 826 00:31:26,980 --> 00:31:30,259 LHEB, the unexpected discovery of CP violation in 827 00:31:30,259 --> 00:31:32,660 charm, which occurs at a rate that seems 828 00:31:32,660 --> 00:31:35,240 to be inconsistent with the standard model expectation. 829 00:31:36,019 --> 00:31:38,255 But, again, to know if this is really 830 00:31:38,315 --> 00:31:40,315 due to something beyond the standard model or 831 00:31:40,315 --> 00:31:42,095 due to larger than expected corrections, 832 00:31:42,394 --> 00:31:45,115 we need more data and more independent measurements 833 00:31:45,115 --> 00:31:46,954 to be able to confirm that. And that's 834 00:31:46,954 --> 00:31:49,195 something that will only be possible with the 835 00:31:49,195 --> 00:31:52,099 LHEB upgrade. In fact, in the current global 836 00:31:52,099 --> 00:31:54,659 planning of particle physics, there's no other experiment 837 00:31:54,659 --> 00:31:56,099 that will be able to do this for 838 00:31:56,099 --> 00:31:58,259 at least another fifty years. So you see 839 00:31:58,259 --> 00:32:00,259 the LHCb upgrade really is a once in 840 00:32:00,259 --> 00:32:03,220 a lifetime opportunity to uncover new aspects of 841 00:32:03,220 --> 00:32:04,125 the laws of nature. 842 00:32:04,684 --> 00:32:06,525 We are determined that we're not gonna let 843 00:32:06,525 --> 00:32:08,525 this opportunity slip, and that's why it's so 844 00:32:08,525 --> 00:32:10,605 important that we find a solution to the 845 00:32:10,605 --> 00:32:13,265 crisis that's been caused by the UKRI decision. 846 00:32:14,684 --> 00:32:17,079 Well, thanks, Tim. Thanks so much for for 847 00:32:17,079 --> 00:32:19,500 speaking to Physics World about this and explaining 848 00:32:19,559 --> 00:32:21,879 the situation. And I'm sure within the physics 849 00:32:21,879 --> 00:32:25,159 community, people are are behind LHCb in The 850 00:32:25,159 --> 00:32:27,399 UK, and we hope that you can come 851 00:32:27,399 --> 00:32:28,059 up with 852 00:32:28,679 --> 00:32:31,259 some sort of resolution to move things forward. 853 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:31,964 So, 854 00:32:32,765 --> 00:32:34,144 best wishes with that. 855 00:32:35,484 --> 00:32:37,404 Thank thank you very much, Hamish. That's much 856 00:32:37,404 --> 00:32:39,164 appreciated, and I hope that I'll be able 857 00:32:39,164 --> 00:32:41,105 to come back with some good news sometime 858 00:32:41,164 --> 00:32:41,664 soon. 859 00:32:42,284 --> 00:32:43,825 That's great. Thank you, Tim. 860 00:32:51,019 --> 00:32:52,779 I'm afraid that's all the time we have 861 00:32:52,779 --> 00:32:55,579 for this week's podcast. Thanks to Tim Gershen 862 00:32:55,579 --> 00:32:57,440 for an update on LHCb. 863 00:32:58,745 --> 00:33:01,785 I'm Hamish Johnston, and our producer is Fred 864 00:33:01,785 --> 00:33:02,285 Isles. 865 00:33:02,745 --> 00:33:05,065 The theme music in this episode is called 866 00:33:05,065 --> 00:33:08,265 one three seven, and it was composed and 867 00:33:08,265 --> 00:33:09,884 performed by the physicist 868 00:33:10,505 --> 00:33:11,404 Philip Moriarty.