1 00:00:07,839 --> 00:00:10,880 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly 2 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:11,380 podcast. 3 00:00:11,759 --> 00:00:13,059 I'm Hamish Johnston. 4 00:00:13,695 --> 00:00:16,734 In this episode, I'm in conversation with Bert 5 00:00:16,734 --> 00:00:18,595 de Jong, who is director 6 00:00:18,975 --> 00:00:21,315 of the Quantum Systems Accelerator 7 00:00:21,774 --> 00:00:23,234 at the Lawrence Berkeley 8 00:00:23,695 --> 00:00:24,675 National Laboratory 9 00:00:25,214 --> 00:00:26,195 in The US. 10 00:00:26,839 --> 00:00:30,300 But first, a message from Oxford Ionix. 11 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,140 This podcast is brought to you by Oxford 12 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:34,700 Ionix, 13 00:00:35,399 --> 00:00:37,020 an ion q company. 14 00:00:37,719 --> 00:00:41,164 As part of ion q, Oxford ionics is 15 00:00:41,164 --> 00:00:45,185 a leading quantum technology company focused on building 16 00:00:45,325 --> 00:00:49,024 and delivering the world's most powerful quantum computers. 17 00:00:50,045 --> 00:00:51,984 Combining scale and performance, 18 00:00:52,549 --> 00:00:53,609 Oxford Ionix 19 00:00:54,070 --> 00:00:55,929 uniquely uses electronics 20 00:00:56,549 --> 00:01:00,229 instead of lasers to control its trapped ion 21 00:01:00,229 --> 00:01:00,729 cubits. 22 00:01:01,590 --> 00:01:03,770 This enables the company to manufacture 23 00:01:04,310 --> 00:01:05,689 its quantum computers 24 00:01:06,150 --> 00:01:07,209 via the standard 25 00:01:07,855 --> 00:01:09,474 semiconductor supply chain, 26 00:01:09,855 --> 00:01:10,594 while maintaining 27 00:01:10,895 --> 00:01:13,395 world records in quantum performance. 28 00:01:14,094 --> 00:01:17,234 For more information about Oxford IONICS, 29 00:01:17,775 --> 00:01:22,755 visit www.oxionics.com. 30 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,820 Bert de Jong is department head for computational 31 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:34,620 sciences 32 00:01:35,079 --> 00:01:37,020 and leads the applied computing 33 00:01:37,454 --> 00:01:38,194 for scientific 34 00:01:38,655 --> 00:01:42,274 discovery group at Lawrence Berkeley National Lab, 35 00:01:42,575 --> 00:01:43,634 where he's also 36 00:01:43,935 --> 00:01:46,834 director of the Quantum Systems Accelerator. 37 00:01:47,854 --> 00:01:50,515 Bert's background is in computational chemistry, 38 00:01:50,959 --> 00:01:52,819 and that led him to understand 39 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:54,579 that quantum physics 40 00:01:54,879 --> 00:01:57,459 can be used as a scientific tool. 41 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,979 He shares that vision with the Quantum Systems 42 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:01,780 Accelerator, 43 00:02:02,319 --> 00:02:04,099 which is a national organization 44 00:02:04,719 --> 00:02:06,645 with the mission to codesign 45 00:02:07,424 --> 00:02:07,924 algorithms, 46 00:02:08,385 --> 00:02:10,485 quantum devices, and engineering 47 00:02:10,784 --> 00:02:11,284 solutions 48 00:02:11,665 --> 00:02:13,125 that are needed to solve 49 00:02:13,585 --> 00:02:14,724 scientific problems. 50 00:02:15,504 --> 00:02:17,444 Hi, Bert. Welcome to the podcast. 51 00:02:18,465 --> 00:02:19,205 Hi, Amish. 52 00:02:19,745 --> 00:02:22,090 Thanks for having me, and I'm looking forward 53 00:02:22,090 --> 00:02:22,990 to talk to you. 54 00:02:23,610 --> 00:02:26,590 So, Bert, you're the director of the Quantum 55 00:02:26,650 --> 00:02:27,150 Systems 56 00:02:27,530 --> 00:02:28,030 Accelerator. 57 00:02:28,409 --> 00:02:30,349 Can you describe this initiative? 58 00:02:30,729 --> 00:02:33,210 What are its aims, and who are its 59 00:02:33,210 --> 00:02:33,710 members? 60 00:02:35,465 --> 00:02:35,965 So, 61 00:02:36,344 --> 00:02:39,145 the Quantum System Accelerator is one of five 62 00:02:39,145 --> 00:02:42,185 national quantum initiative centers that is funded by 63 00:02:42,185 --> 00:02:43,324 the Department of Energy, 64 00:02:43,625 --> 00:02:44,844 out of the basic energy 65 00:02:45,145 --> 00:02:46,205 sciences office. 66 00:02:46,584 --> 00:02:47,884 Our mission specifically 67 00:02:48,264 --> 00:02:49,164 is to really 68 00:02:49,949 --> 00:02:51,969 move technology forward. So, 69 00:02:52,669 --> 00:02:55,169 we have as a mission to deliver, 70 00:02:56,189 --> 00:02:57,409 advanced prototypes 71 00:02:57,789 --> 00:02:58,849 in atoms, 72 00:02:59,389 --> 00:03:00,449 ions, and superconducting 73 00:03:00,750 --> 00:03:01,250 qubits, 74 00:03:02,030 --> 00:03:03,250 but also building, 75 00:03:03,914 --> 00:03:04,414 additional 76 00:03:04,875 --> 00:03:07,675 technology infrastructure that allows us to scale. So 77 00:03:07,675 --> 00:03:09,215 we do a lot of work with integrated 78 00:03:09,275 --> 00:03:11,455 photonics, a lot of work with, controls. 79 00:03:12,155 --> 00:03:14,715 And all of that together, those prototypes that 80 00:03:14,715 --> 00:03:15,534 we're delivering, 81 00:03:16,395 --> 00:03:19,110 as part of our program are then used, 82 00:03:19,169 --> 00:03:21,569 not just built, but also used to do 83 00:03:21,569 --> 00:03:24,389 science. And and our ultimate goal is is 84 00:03:24,530 --> 00:03:27,110 to use these prototype types to deliver 85 00:03:27,569 --> 00:03:29,810 scientific advantage to a point that, 86 00:03:30,455 --> 00:03:33,514 we could solve problems with our quantum prototypes 87 00:03:33,655 --> 00:03:36,074 that could not be done on classical computers. 88 00:03:37,335 --> 00:03:38,634 I see. And and, 89 00:03:39,655 --> 00:03:43,275 obviously, your national lab is, is a member 90 00:03:43,599 --> 00:03:45,360 of the QSA. Who are some of the 91 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:46,180 other members? 92 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,040 So we are a team of, we're consisting 93 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,360 of two national labs that are driving this. 94 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,319 That's, Lawrence Berkeley National Lab and Sandia National 95 00:03:56,319 --> 00:03:56,819 Laboratories, 96 00:03:58,485 --> 00:04:01,544 together with about another 14 partners. 97 00:04:02,004 --> 00:04:03,224 And those are, 98 00:04:03,925 --> 00:04:06,985 the academic partners, I mean. So they're Harvard, 99 00:04:07,525 --> 00:04:08,025 MIT, 100 00:04:09,365 --> 00:04:09,865 Colorado, 101 00:04:10,324 --> 00:04:14,620 Caltech, and many others. So, we're about 450 102 00:04:14,620 --> 00:04:16,720 people that are working on this project. 103 00:04:17,339 --> 00:04:18,800 Now this is not just, 104 00:04:19,419 --> 00:04:20,959 National Labs in academia. 105 00:04:21,660 --> 00:04:22,399 We're also 106 00:04:22,779 --> 00:04:25,519 having a a a good level of partnerships 107 00:04:25,660 --> 00:04:26,879 with commercial entities. 108 00:04:27,694 --> 00:04:29,875 Some of the technology we have been developing 109 00:04:30,254 --> 00:04:31,634 in the first five years 110 00:04:32,095 --> 00:04:34,414 have drawn a lot of attention as I 111 00:04:34,414 --> 00:04:36,354 mentioned already the integrated photonics. 112 00:04:36,974 --> 00:04:40,495 We actually developed these chips. Sandia fabricates these 113 00:04:40,495 --> 00:04:41,394 chips, and, 114 00:04:42,250 --> 00:04:43,310 companies like, 115 00:04:44,490 --> 00:04:45,389 Atom computing, 116 00:04:46,409 --> 00:04:46,909 Quantinium, 117 00:04:48,169 --> 00:04:48,669 Quera, 118 00:04:49,370 --> 00:04:52,669 which we have much bigger and, longer, 119 00:04:53,129 --> 00:04:55,625 collaboration with already, and I and Q are 120 00:04:55,625 --> 00:04:58,185 very keen to take those technologies and explore 121 00:04:58,185 --> 00:05:00,665 them, try to see how they work because 122 00:05:00,665 --> 00:05:02,824 that allows them to scale. And this is 123 00:05:02,824 --> 00:05:05,404 an example of us looking kind of technology 124 00:05:05,464 --> 00:05:05,964 forward, 125 00:05:06,585 --> 00:05:07,949 kind of doing 126 00:05:08,490 --> 00:05:10,970 research that is a little further ahead than 127 00:05:10,970 --> 00:05:13,050 most companies would be doing at this point 128 00:05:13,050 --> 00:05:15,449 in time. That's part of our mission too 129 00:05:15,449 --> 00:05:18,270 as we are here to to explore 130 00:05:19,129 --> 00:05:19,870 new technology, 131 00:05:20,474 --> 00:05:20,974 kinda 132 00:05:21,274 --> 00:05:23,774 take a high risk, high reward type approach, 133 00:05:24,074 --> 00:05:26,735 and eventually help us derisk industry, 134 00:05:27,274 --> 00:05:28,814 as they advance the technologies. 135 00:05:29,675 --> 00:05:32,654 But yes. So we're about fifteen, sixteen institutions 136 00:05:33,194 --> 00:05:34,735 of on the science side. 137 00:05:35,194 --> 00:05:36,094 We have about 138 00:05:37,889 --> 00:05:40,209 eight or nine companies that are working with 139 00:05:40,209 --> 00:05:40,689 us, 140 00:05:41,329 --> 00:05:42,389 on different levels. 141 00:05:42,689 --> 00:05:44,769 I mentioned the integrated photonics, but there is 142 00:05:44,769 --> 00:05:47,250 also a large interest in in working with 143 00:05:47,250 --> 00:05:49,490 us on the application side because they're all 144 00:05:49,490 --> 00:05:52,285 interested in in getting to an quantum advance 145 00:05:52,285 --> 00:05:54,605 or scientific advance, as we would like to 146 00:05:54,605 --> 00:05:57,645 call it, but also helping and partnering on 147 00:05:57,645 --> 00:05:59,904 on some of the fundamentals like integrate 148 00:06:00,524 --> 00:06:01,824 like controls, for example. 149 00:06:03,319 --> 00:06:06,939 And, Bert, one of the focuses or foci, 150 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,339 should I should I say, of the QSA 151 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:10,199 is, 152 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:12,620 the development of algorithms 153 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:14,379 for quantum processors. 154 00:06:15,235 --> 00:06:18,194 What are the current challenges in this area? 155 00:06:18,194 --> 00:06:19,735 Is it difficult to develop 156 00:06:20,435 --> 00:06:21,654 specific algorithms 157 00:06:22,035 --> 00:06:24,835 when it's not quite clear what qubit types 158 00:06:24,835 --> 00:06:25,735 and architectures 159 00:06:26,435 --> 00:06:28,290 will be used in the first 160 00:06:28,610 --> 00:06:30,389 large scale quantum computers? 161 00:06:31,970 --> 00:06:34,529 Yes. We definitely have a component of of 162 00:06:34,529 --> 00:06:37,649 developing algorithms. We actually have also a component 163 00:06:37,649 --> 00:06:39,750 of effort focused on error correction. 164 00:06:41,464 --> 00:06:42,985 I would say this is one of the 165 00:06:42,985 --> 00:06:44,845 reasons why we have not 166 00:06:45,305 --> 00:06:47,245 chosen a specific technology. 167 00:06:47,545 --> 00:06:49,004 We we've gone with 168 00:06:49,384 --> 00:06:51,165 building prototypes for atoms, 169 00:06:51,785 --> 00:06:54,365 try trapped ions, and superconducting qubits 170 00:06:54,745 --> 00:06:57,550 because we really are focused on what do 171 00:06:57,550 --> 00:06:59,710 we need to do, what algorithmic work has 172 00:06:59,710 --> 00:07:01,569 to be done to make sure that these, 173 00:07:02,430 --> 00:07:05,870 prototypes, these technologies can deliver on department of 174 00:07:05,870 --> 00:07:06,850 energy science. 175 00:07:07,389 --> 00:07:08,529 So the biggest, 176 00:07:08,995 --> 00:07:11,074 I would say, what we have seen so 177 00:07:11,074 --> 00:07:13,574 far, which is which is an interesting observation 178 00:07:13,714 --> 00:07:15,334 in the first five years is 179 00:07:15,714 --> 00:07:17,714 that the areas we're focusing on are high 180 00:07:17,714 --> 00:07:18,615 energy physics, 181 00:07:19,314 --> 00:07:21,794 or nuclear physics. They are very similar in 182 00:07:21,794 --> 00:07:23,360 in in style, 183 00:07:24,060 --> 00:07:24,959 chemical dynamics, 184 00:07:25,420 --> 00:07:28,620 and many body physics. What's interesting is so 185 00:07:28,620 --> 00:07:30,959 far is that we've been able to demonstrate 186 00:07:31,500 --> 00:07:34,319 similar types of problems on all three technologies. 187 00:07:35,354 --> 00:07:36,574 And each technology 188 00:07:36,875 --> 00:07:40,574 approaches these things slightly differently, and that's fine. 189 00:07:40,954 --> 00:07:43,274 It allows us to kind of do an 190 00:07:43,274 --> 00:07:46,074 early testing of, is this technology going to 191 00:07:46,074 --> 00:07:47,959 be something that is going 192 00:07:48,420 --> 00:07:50,339 to be important to the Department of Energy 193 00:07:50,339 --> 00:07:51,000 for the future? 194 00:07:51,939 --> 00:07:54,660 So far, the three technologies that we chose 195 00:07:54,660 --> 00:07:56,600 to to take a 196 00:07:57,300 --> 00:07:59,399 a effort in are all 197 00:07:59,860 --> 00:08:02,360 demonstrating that they have a path to deliver 198 00:08:02,895 --> 00:08:04,194 on scientific advantage. 199 00:08:05,134 --> 00:08:08,415 The neutral atoms, honestly, when we started, neutral 200 00:08:08,415 --> 00:08:11,535 atoms was kind of not really there, that 201 00:08:11,535 --> 00:08:14,355 they had the first small scale demonstrations 202 00:08:14,975 --> 00:08:17,855 of, oh, we can actually control and harness 203 00:08:17,855 --> 00:08:18,355 atoms. 204 00:08:19,189 --> 00:08:21,110 During the first five years of our center, 205 00:08:21,110 --> 00:08:23,830 we delivered systems that are 256 206 00:08:23,830 --> 00:08:24,330 cubits. 207 00:08:25,270 --> 00:08:27,910 The technologies that we developed have shown up 208 00:08:27,910 --> 00:08:30,404 effectively in a in a company like Quira. 209 00:08:30,964 --> 00:08:32,024 And so our 210 00:08:32,404 --> 00:08:35,284 collaboration with Quira is very closed right now 211 00:08:35,284 --> 00:08:35,784 because, 212 00:08:36,485 --> 00:08:37,304 their technologies 213 00:08:37,764 --> 00:08:40,504 the system they're delivering right now or producing 214 00:08:41,205 --> 00:08:43,740 is kind of based on technologies that that 215 00:08:43,740 --> 00:08:45,899 have a root in in the quantum system 216 00:08:45,899 --> 00:08:46,399 accelerator. 217 00:08:46,860 --> 00:08:49,100 There we go next with atoms, they're talking 218 00:08:49,100 --> 00:08:51,200 about 100 logical qubits. 219 00:08:52,220 --> 00:08:55,340 Not that full fault tolerance, but at a 220 00:08:55,340 --> 00:08:56,399 accuracy level 221 00:08:56,774 --> 00:08:59,514 that is enough for us to do science. 222 00:08:59,975 --> 00:09:01,894 And I think this is where the the 223 00:09:01,894 --> 00:09:04,454 trick comes in is that when you're talking 224 00:09:04,454 --> 00:09:07,414 about developing algorithms, it's not as much just 225 00:09:07,414 --> 00:09:10,534 building algorithms and hoping the hardware catches up. 226 00:09:10,534 --> 00:09:12,389 This is really a co design process. 227 00:09:22,549 --> 00:09:24,629 What we may need on the algorithmic side 228 00:09:24,629 --> 00:09:26,054 or the application side 229 00:09:27,014 --> 00:09:29,654 might drive or might give us opportunities to 230 00:09:29,654 --> 00:09:30,475 really pursue, 231 00:09:31,095 --> 00:09:32,154 slightly different, 232 00:09:32,615 --> 00:09:35,495 approaches within the hardware technologies to make it 233 00:09:35,495 --> 00:09:35,995 happen. 234 00:09:36,455 --> 00:09:39,115 And and another example for that for that 235 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,399 for that point, the other interesting sample is 236 00:09:42,399 --> 00:09:44,480 is, the work that we're doing with with 237 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,440 trapped ions. We've taken a very different tact 238 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,080 there in scaling, and that is instead of 239 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:51,839 going to two to the n where you 240 00:09:51,839 --> 00:09:52,544 have each, 241 00:09:53,504 --> 00:09:55,584 add I and effectively being a, 242 00:09:56,225 --> 00:09:59,664 a qubit, we're actually really focusing right now 243 00:09:59,664 --> 00:10:00,464 on on the, 244 00:10:01,985 --> 00:10:04,304 on the coupling between the atoms, which allows 245 00:10:04,304 --> 00:10:06,144 us to get another set of degrees of 246 00:10:06,144 --> 00:10:08,620 freedom, which means we can go to six 247 00:10:08,620 --> 00:10:10,480 to the end, maybe eight to the end. 248 00:10:10,620 --> 00:10:13,019 So that's a very different way of actually 249 00:10:13,019 --> 00:10:15,440 approaching this. What's nice about it 250 00:10:15,740 --> 00:10:16,240 is, 251 00:10:16,700 --> 00:10:19,680 it provides us also access to both for, 252 00:10:20,220 --> 00:10:21,519 fermions and, 253 00:10:22,504 --> 00:10:23,004 bosons, 254 00:10:23,465 --> 00:10:25,545 which is really where most of the science 255 00:10:25,545 --> 00:10:27,785 is going to go. For example, the high 256 00:10:27,785 --> 00:10:29,625 energy physics, we are really looking at a 257 00:10:29,625 --> 00:10:31,644 dynamical process of hadronization. 258 00:10:32,184 --> 00:10:33,884 So how do actually 259 00:10:34,779 --> 00:10:37,040 particles we have in the universe form? 260 00:10:37,580 --> 00:10:39,120 That's a dynamical process. 261 00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:41,980 In chemistry, we are looking at same thing. 262 00:10:41,980 --> 00:10:45,200 What is the chemical dynamics process? How do 263 00:10:45,660 --> 00:10:47,440 how does charge? How does 264 00:10:48,059 --> 00:10:50,000 mass move through a system? 265 00:10:50,565 --> 00:10:53,524 Those are the really relevant questions we wanna 266 00:10:53,524 --> 00:10:54,024 tackle. 267 00:10:54,404 --> 00:10:57,065 A ground state calculation is not where 268 00:10:57,445 --> 00:10:59,925 our community needs to focus on because that's 269 00:10:59,925 --> 00:11:01,785 not the relevant science problem. 270 00:11:03,059 --> 00:11:04,899 With the exception of many body physics where 271 00:11:04,899 --> 00:11:06,899 we always try to find new phases of 272 00:11:06,899 --> 00:11:09,539 matter, which often end to be end up 273 00:11:09,539 --> 00:11:10,039 being, 274 00:11:10,579 --> 00:11:11,319 kind of 275 00:11:11,620 --> 00:11:14,804 ground state properties of very complex systems. But, 276 00:11:15,684 --> 00:11:18,004 again, all three, we have been able to 277 00:11:18,004 --> 00:11:18,884 do science with 278 00:11:19,684 --> 00:11:21,445 all three platforms have been able to do 279 00:11:21,445 --> 00:11:23,625 science in all three those technologies 280 00:11:24,004 --> 00:11:26,164 really through co design. We are we are 281 00:11:26,164 --> 00:11:28,909 not just building a prototype, somebody builds a 282 00:11:28,909 --> 00:11:29,889 prototype, and 283 00:11:30,269 --> 00:11:32,990 the algorithmic developers, oh, we'll have to figure 284 00:11:32,990 --> 00:11:34,690 out how to use it. It is really 285 00:11:34,909 --> 00:11:35,649 that that 286 00:11:36,190 --> 00:11:37,569 joining of those two, 287 00:11:38,110 --> 00:11:40,509 skill sets or all of those skill sets 288 00:11:40,509 --> 00:11:42,209 together to make it happen. 289 00:11:43,044 --> 00:11:44,965 And, Bert, are are you one of those 290 00:11:44,965 --> 00:11:45,785 people who 291 00:11:46,404 --> 00:11:48,264 I mean, do you think that, ultimately, 292 00:11:49,044 --> 00:11:50,264 there will be one 293 00:11:50,725 --> 00:11:53,465 type of qubit that is used in 294 00:11:54,325 --> 00:11:56,825 most quantum computers in the future? 295 00:11:58,269 --> 00:12:00,990 You know, that one qubit technology that ticks 296 00:12:00,990 --> 00:12:01,889 all the boxes? 297 00:12:02,269 --> 00:12:04,430 Or do you think that we're going to 298 00:12:04,430 --> 00:12:05,649 see hybrid systems 299 00:12:06,190 --> 00:12:08,269 in the future where oh, I don't know. 300 00:12:08,269 --> 00:12:11,345 We've got some ion qubits that are used 301 00:12:11,345 --> 00:12:14,084 in some part of the calculation and superconducting 302 00:12:14,464 --> 00:12:16,404 qubits in another part and, 303 00:12:17,024 --> 00:12:17,524 maybe 304 00:12:17,904 --> 00:12:20,944 a linear optical system to do something else. 305 00:12:20,944 --> 00:12:22,324 Is that how things 306 00:12:22,704 --> 00:12:24,245 look like they're shaping up? 307 00:12:25,620 --> 00:12:28,019 No. I I would so one of the 308 00:12:28,019 --> 00:12:28,899 things that I 309 00:12:29,539 --> 00:12:32,259 I'm do not believe in is that, there 310 00:12:32,259 --> 00:12:33,320 is going to be 311 00:12:34,419 --> 00:12:36,980 a one type of technology that's going to 312 00:12:36,980 --> 00:12:39,264 win at all, at least not in the 313 00:12:39,264 --> 00:12:41,925 near future. Maybe in the long term future, 314 00:12:42,225 --> 00:12:44,705 but I think the technology is still nascent 315 00:12:44,705 --> 00:12:45,205 enough 316 00:12:45,904 --> 00:12:46,384 that, 317 00:12:47,184 --> 00:12:50,625 there is no clear winner. Yep. Again, the 318 00:12:50,625 --> 00:12:52,785 atoms were way behind. The atoms right now 319 00:12:52,785 --> 00:12:53,445 are way 320 00:12:53,809 --> 00:12:56,370 ahead, I would say. And so and there 321 00:12:56,370 --> 00:12:58,289 is lots of dark horses in the race 322 00:12:58,289 --> 00:13:01,089 at this point in time too that haven't 323 00:13:01,089 --> 00:13:02,709 reached the threshold yet, 324 00:13:03,009 --> 00:13:04,389 but could get there. 325 00:13:04,929 --> 00:13:05,669 And so 326 00:13:06,024 --> 00:13:07,544 I would say there is a lot of 327 00:13:07,544 --> 00:13:10,345 opportunities for different technologies to be there. And, 328 00:13:10,345 --> 00:13:12,664 honestly, if you think of it as, 329 00:13:13,384 --> 00:13:15,945 as we try to now think about it 330 00:13:15,945 --> 00:13:18,284 as a future scientific instrument, 331 00:13:18,990 --> 00:13:21,870 there might not be one instrument that does 332 00:13:21,870 --> 00:13:24,269 it all. Now we have at the national 333 00:13:24,269 --> 00:13:27,090 labs lots of different instruments, large scale instruments 334 00:13:27,149 --> 00:13:27,809 we built, 335 00:13:28,350 --> 00:13:30,370 and they all have specific purposes. 336 00:13:30,924 --> 00:13:34,225 So I rather see the technologies being complementary 337 00:13:34,445 --> 00:13:36,785 to each other, not working together. 338 00:13:37,644 --> 00:13:40,144 When you talk about hybrid, I think differently. 339 00:13:40,285 --> 00:13:42,625 If you talk about hybrid, I think of 340 00:13:42,764 --> 00:13:45,825 the need to integrate with high performance computing, 341 00:13:46,730 --> 00:13:47,230 technologies, 342 00:13:47,610 --> 00:13:49,769 and that is definitely going to be the 343 00:13:49,769 --> 00:13:50,269 case. 344 00:13:51,450 --> 00:13:53,610 I don't think a quantum computer will be, 345 00:13:54,009 --> 00:13:56,009 standing on its own and be able to 346 00:13:56,009 --> 00:13:57,950 operate on its own without 347 00:13:58,264 --> 00:14:00,924 some level of high performance computing behind it. 348 00:14:01,705 --> 00:14:03,644 This could be all the way from, 349 00:14:04,424 --> 00:14:07,465 actually compiling, building the programs that need to 350 00:14:07,465 --> 00:14:08,764 be run on these systems 351 00:14:09,304 --> 00:14:12,365 to doing error correction, to doing post processing. 352 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:13,860 All of these 353 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:15,540 aspects, especially 354 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:17,460 decoding and and so on, 355 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:18,980 seems to be heavily, 356 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,500 reliant on high performance computing, and 357 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,480 I have a sense a lot of this 358 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,300 might eventually also rely on AI. 359 00:14:28,194 --> 00:14:30,514 So, honestly, what I see more when it 360 00:14:30,514 --> 00:14:32,274 comes to a hybrid system, I see a 361 00:14:32,274 --> 00:14:36,134 convergence of of quantum technologies with high performance 362 00:14:36,194 --> 00:14:39,554 computing and AI to deliver a platform. And 363 00:14:39,554 --> 00:14:41,700 for us, that means, in the words of 364 00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:43,320 Dario Gill, our undersecretary, 365 00:14:44,339 --> 00:14:45,879 a scientific instrument 366 00:14:46,419 --> 00:14:48,120 that is going to, 367 00:14:49,220 --> 00:14:49,720 deliver 368 00:14:50,500 --> 00:14:51,240 new knowledge, 369 00:14:51,620 --> 00:14:52,919 new discoveries, 370 00:14:53,299 --> 00:14:55,399 that are critical for the Department of Energy. 371 00:14:56,495 --> 00:14:58,334 And, Bert, I wanted to ask you about 372 00:14:58,334 --> 00:15:01,394 another important focus of QSA, 373 00:15:01,695 --> 00:15:05,375 and that's to harness the exotic properties of 374 00:15:05,375 --> 00:15:08,274 quantum matter to create new technologies, 375 00:15:08,654 --> 00:15:11,235 possibly even new types of qubits. 376 00:15:11,549 --> 00:15:13,629 Can you talk about some of the r 377 00:15:13,629 --> 00:15:16,029 and d that you're supporting when it comes 378 00:15:16,029 --> 00:15:16,429 to, 379 00:15:17,230 --> 00:15:18,129 quantum matter? 380 00:15:20,669 --> 00:15:20,750 So, 381 00:15:23,389 --> 00:15:25,870 mostly, when we talk about quantum matter, we 382 00:15:25,870 --> 00:15:28,894 are actually using the technologies that we're developing 383 00:15:28,954 --> 00:15:31,514 to investigate and study the new phases of 384 00:15:31,514 --> 00:15:33,674 matter. We've done it with neutral atoms. We 385 00:15:33,674 --> 00:15:34,334 have built, 386 00:15:35,355 --> 00:15:35,855 material, 387 00:15:36,315 --> 00:15:38,095 well, simulated materials, 388 00:15:38,750 --> 00:15:40,289 and we're able to probe 389 00:15:40,669 --> 00:15:42,129 new phases of matter. 390 00:15:43,149 --> 00:15:45,230 There is one exception in our center, and 391 00:15:45,230 --> 00:15:47,070 that is also in the atoms, but we're 392 00:15:47,070 --> 00:15:49,789 taking it slightly differently. And that's some work 393 00:15:49,789 --> 00:15:51,809 that we're doing in Colorado where, 394 00:15:52,269 --> 00:15:53,804 we're actually taking atoms 395 00:15:54,284 --> 00:15:57,325 and integrating them in cavities that allows us 396 00:15:57,325 --> 00:15:59,585 to have more degrees of freedoms and effectively 397 00:16:00,205 --> 00:16:03,565 take those atoms and rearrange them and control 398 00:16:03,565 --> 00:16:05,725 them in a way that it behaves like 399 00:16:05,725 --> 00:16:06,840 a new phase of matter. 400 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,440 So we do some of those. We do 401 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:11,180 it also 402 00:16:11,559 --> 00:16:13,899 using the technologies we have as simulators. 403 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,300 And, really, that's what we are producing. 404 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,680 Even in building those specific cavity QED type 405 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:22,540 systems that Colorado builds, 406 00:16:23,534 --> 00:16:26,674 they're still going to be all simulators that's 407 00:16:27,534 --> 00:16:28,034 mimic 408 00:16:28,414 --> 00:16:29,634 a quantum system, 409 00:16:30,174 --> 00:16:32,894 in this case, quantum matter that we wanna 410 00:16:32,894 --> 00:16:34,034 probe and understand. 411 00:16:36,414 --> 00:16:38,335 And, also, Bert, I wanted to ask you 412 00:16:38,335 --> 00:16:38,789 about, 413 00:16:39,350 --> 00:16:41,690 the engineering challenges because, 414 00:16:42,070 --> 00:16:44,709 you know, I suppose your scientists are doing 415 00:16:44,709 --> 00:16:45,449 some fantastic, 416 00:16:46,709 --> 00:16:48,089 research. But ultimately, 417 00:16:49,029 --> 00:16:51,190 you know, one of your goals is to, 418 00:16:51,589 --> 00:16:53,929 to work with companies and and develop 419 00:16:54,434 --> 00:16:55,174 new technologies. 420 00:16:55,475 --> 00:16:57,174 So so what are some of the challenges 421 00:16:57,235 --> 00:17:01,075 of creating new quantum technologies, and and how 422 00:17:01,075 --> 00:17:01,975 is the QSA 423 00:17:02,434 --> 00:17:03,975 helping to overcome them? 424 00:17:05,394 --> 00:17:07,255 Well, that depends on which, 425 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,920 kind of qubit modality you're going after. So 426 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,960 we the neutral atoms is a simple thing 427 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:15,259 of trying to scale. 428 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,059 How can we get more atoms to control? 429 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,000 How can we better control them? So we 430 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,414 have been doing some work on building specific 431 00:17:23,654 --> 00:17:24,855 cryogenic systems that, 432 00:17:26,934 --> 00:17:27,835 have large, 433 00:17:29,734 --> 00:17:32,775 access points for lasers, which is a big 434 00:17:32,775 --> 00:17:36,134 challenge. So this is, something, product that actually 435 00:17:36,215 --> 00:17:38,250 well, product, it's it's a prototype that was 436 00:17:38,250 --> 00:17:38,750 developed 437 00:17:39,210 --> 00:17:40,350 as as part of 438 00:17:40,809 --> 00:17:41,789 Colorado's efforts. 439 00:17:43,210 --> 00:17:44,269 We have demonstrated 440 00:17:45,450 --> 00:17:46,590 how we can control 441 00:17:47,049 --> 00:17:49,450 up now six, seven thousand atoms. We'll be 442 00:17:49,450 --> 00:17:50,890 at at 15,000 443 00:17:50,890 --> 00:17:51,390 soon. 444 00:17:52,184 --> 00:17:54,025 But then you start to run into other 445 00:17:54,025 --> 00:17:56,265 limits, and this is where the what I've 446 00:17:56,265 --> 00:17:58,045 said before, integrated photonics 447 00:17:58,825 --> 00:17:59,644 became an 448 00:17:59,945 --> 00:18:00,924 important thing. 449 00:18:01,545 --> 00:18:04,105 We chose to actually work on that because 450 00:18:04,105 --> 00:18:05,700 we knew we needed to scale. 451 00:18:06,500 --> 00:18:08,659 And scaling is going to be the biggest 452 00:18:08,659 --> 00:18:10,519 challenge for for neutral atoms. 453 00:18:10,819 --> 00:18:12,659 The same with ions. That's going to be 454 00:18:12,659 --> 00:18:15,220 also a a very big challenge. How do 455 00:18:15,220 --> 00:18:15,960 you scale 456 00:18:16,500 --> 00:18:18,855 and be able to sustain the fidelity 457 00:18:19,474 --> 00:18:20,454 and the accuracy 458 00:18:20,994 --> 00:18:21,815 of the qubits 459 00:18:22,275 --> 00:18:22,934 at scale? 460 00:18:23,875 --> 00:18:26,674 Superconducting qubits is a very different story. 461 00:18:27,474 --> 00:18:30,454 There, it's it's really a material science problem. 462 00:18:30,679 --> 00:18:32,940 It's not even a material sciences, materials 463 00:18:33,319 --> 00:18:33,819 engineering 464 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:34,619 problem. 465 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,500 How can you build these qubits 466 00:18:38,279 --> 00:18:38,779 accurately 467 00:18:40,039 --> 00:18:41,799 the way you would like them from your 468 00:18:41,799 --> 00:18:42,299 models, 469 00:18:43,845 --> 00:18:46,244 and be able to build them consistently. So 470 00:18:46,244 --> 00:18:48,244 not just one qubit that is, 471 00:18:48,724 --> 00:18:51,285 the best of the best and all the 472 00:18:51,285 --> 00:18:54,484 other nine let's say you have a 109 473 00:18:54,484 --> 00:18:56,670 or 99 are bad and one is good. 474 00:18:56,670 --> 00:18:58,350 That is not what we need. That was 475 00:18:58,350 --> 00:19:00,430 our hero qubits that that are not going 476 00:19:00,430 --> 00:19:01,490 to give us anything. 477 00:19:01,869 --> 00:19:03,309 We need to get to a point where 478 00:19:03,309 --> 00:19:05,470 we can build a 100 qubits that all 479 00:19:05,470 --> 00:19:06,609 have these long 480 00:19:07,070 --> 00:19:07,570 lifetime 481 00:19:08,029 --> 00:19:09,730 have very long t ones, 482 00:19:10,384 --> 00:19:12,464 or t two so that they can actually 483 00:19:12,464 --> 00:19:13,924 do many operations. 484 00:19:14,464 --> 00:19:17,184 So with superconducting, it's a very different story. 485 00:19:17,184 --> 00:19:18,224 So we're working with, 486 00:19:18,944 --> 00:19:22,085 companies like, CoLab, which is also, 487 00:19:22,869 --> 00:19:24,710 of course, the home of, 488 00:19:25,349 --> 00:19:26,169 John Martinessa, 489 00:19:27,349 --> 00:19:28,730 the Nobel Prize winner, 490 00:19:29,669 --> 00:19:31,849 and with, Applied Materials, 491 00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:36,384 together with our foundries here, with our molecular 492 00:19:36,525 --> 00:19:37,804 foundry, and with, 493 00:19:38,365 --> 00:19:40,304 some of our fabrication capabilities 494 00:19:41,005 --> 00:19:43,744 to see how we can build better, more 495 00:19:44,204 --> 00:19:45,424 reliable qubits 496 00:19:46,044 --> 00:19:48,444 at scale so that we can actually do 497 00:19:48,444 --> 00:19:50,384 something real in the science 498 00:19:51,059 --> 00:19:53,460 and try to if we see if we 499 00:19:53,460 --> 00:19:54,440 can get to, 500 00:19:55,380 --> 00:19:56,200 many milliseconds, 501 00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:58,839 if not longer lifetimes of these qubits. 502 00:19:59,779 --> 00:20:00,980 So there's a lot of work that is 503 00:20:00,980 --> 00:20:03,105 being done to understand where the defects are. 504 00:20:03,664 --> 00:20:06,304 That's a very different problem on scaling and 505 00:20:06,304 --> 00:20:08,304 accuracy than it is for neutral atoms and 506 00:20:08,304 --> 00:20:11,265 trapped ions. But so we're doing really research 507 00:20:11,265 --> 00:20:12,804 in all of those aspects, 508 00:20:13,424 --> 00:20:16,820 from atoms to superconducting qubits to make sure 509 00:20:16,820 --> 00:20:17,960 that we can get 510 00:20:18,339 --> 00:20:20,200 reliable qubits or 511 00:20:20,660 --> 00:20:21,160 QDits, 512 00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:23,400 where possible 513 00:20:23,940 --> 00:20:25,720 so that we can actually do 514 00:20:26,019 --> 00:20:28,660 designs that we wanna do and deliver on 515 00:20:28,660 --> 00:20:30,259 the ultimate mission, which is, 516 00:20:31,005 --> 00:20:33,744 enabling scientific discovery and quantum advantage. 517 00:20:34,845 --> 00:20:37,744 And people, of course, are gonna be crucial 518 00:20:37,805 --> 00:20:39,184 to this, the right people. 519 00:20:40,045 --> 00:20:41,664 I wanted to ask you about 520 00:20:42,445 --> 00:20:43,825 developing a skilled 521 00:20:44,609 --> 00:20:45,589 quantum workforce. 522 00:20:45,970 --> 00:20:47,990 What what is the QSA doing, 523 00:20:49,250 --> 00:20:51,670 towards that end, you know, in terms of 524 00:20:51,809 --> 00:20:55,029 training people and, and, I suppose, 525 00:20:55,490 --> 00:20:57,670 introducing quantum science and technology 526 00:20:58,049 --> 00:20:58,549 to 527 00:20:59,035 --> 00:21:01,355 a a wider group of people, you know, 528 00:21:01,355 --> 00:21:03,295 not just chemists and physicists 529 00:21:03,914 --> 00:21:06,555 and computer scientists, but other people who are 530 00:21:06,555 --> 00:21:07,055 needed, 531 00:21:08,075 --> 00:21:09,775 to create these technologies. 532 00:21:12,075 --> 00:21:12,954 Yes. So, 533 00:21:13,730 --> 00:21:14,230 well, 534 00:21:14,529 --> 00:21:16,849 of course, as I said, we are 450 535 00:21:16,849 --> 00:21:19,910 people. That includes grad students, undergrads, and postdocs. 536 00:21:21,330 --> 00:21:25,089 Of course, our easiest pathway to to help 537 00:21:25,089 --> 00:21:28,309 build the workforce is to to train students, 538 00:21:28,694 --> 00:21:30,954 grad students, undergrad students, postdocs, 539 00:21:31,894 --> 00:21:34,054 so that they are ready to go into 540 00:21:34,054 --> 00:21:35,974 the workforce as soon as they're ready with 541 00:21:35,974 --> 00:21:36,474 their 542 00:21:37,734 --> 00:21:41,255 their degrees or with their career development as 543 00:21:41,255 --> 00:21:43,355 part of a a postdoctoral fellow. 544 00:21:43,990 --> 00:21:45,909 But we have we believe that that is 545 00:21:45,909 --> 00:21:48,169 not the the ultimate solution 546 00:21:48,630 --> 00:21:50,789 because that's the short term. And those are 547 00:21:50,789 --> 00:21:53,529 also all they're grad students. They're they're 548 00:21:53,990 --> 00:21:55,289 they are physicists, 549 00:21:55,589 --> 00:21:57,509 chemists, but we need a lot of other 550 00:21:57,509 --> 00:21:57,914 skills. 551 00:21:59,115 --> 00:22:01,455 Most of my programs here actually have, 552 00:22:01,994 --> 00:22:05,455 are integrated teams of computer scientists, applied mathematicians, 553 00:22:07,355 --> 00:22:09,755 and and and domain scientists effectively, and I 554 00:22:09,755 --> 00:22:11,295 believe that is very important. 555 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:13,960 The other thing that I believe is very 556 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:15,740 important is to start earlier. 557 00:22:16,519 --> 00:22:19,319 We cannot wait till they're in college and 558 00:22:19,319 --> 00:22:22,779 then introduce them to physics, and, hopefully, 559 00:22:23,319 --> 00:22:25,400 they change their minds on where they wanted 560 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,345 to go and actually go and get a 561 00:22:27,345 --> 00:22:30,244 degree that is relevant for quantum information sciences. 562 00:22:30,704 --> 00:22:32,625 So one of the things Q cam what 563 00:22:32,625 --> 00:22:34,545 we have done is we have developed a 564 00:22:34,545 --> 00:22:35,765 program called QCamp. 565 00:22:36,304 --> 00:22:38,940 So QCamp is actually not even looking at 566 00:22:40,139 --> 00:22:41,759 grad school or universities. 567 00:22:42,059 --> 00:22:43,440 It's looking at high schools. 568 00:22:43,740 --> 00:22:45,419 And this is where we really need to 569 00:22:45,419 --> 00:22:45,919 go. 570 00:22:46,379 --> 00:22:47,980 So we have had a program now for 571 00:22:47,980 --> 00:22:48,639 the last 572 00:22:49,980 --> 00:22:50,720 four years 573 00:22:51,274 --> 00:22:52,315 where we are, 574 00:22:52,714 --> 00:22:55,515 doing hands on programs with students and with 575 00:22:55,515 --> 00:22:56,015 teachers. 576 00:22:56,875 --> 00:22:58,015 And we do both 577 00:22:58,474 --> 00:23:01,914 separately, but both because we believe the reach 578 00:23:01,914 --> 00:23:03,835 of teachers is bigger than we can ever 579 00:23:03,835 --> 00:23:06,559 do by ourselves by bringing in students. 580 00:23:07,019 --> 00:23:07,839 But we have, 581 00:23:09,099 --> 00:23:09,599 trained 582 00:23:09,980 --> 00:23:11,919 probably hundreds of teachers now. 583 00:23:12,299 --> 00:23:15,099 Started in California and in New Mexico where 584 00:23:15,099 --> 00:23:17,339 that's where where kind of the core of 585 00:23:17,339 --> 00:23:20,079 our center had been. But now we're at 586 00:23:20,355 --> 00:23:22,674 six, seven states, and our goal is to 587 00:23:22,674 --> 00:23:23,174 go 588 00:23:23,634 --> 00:23:26,134 to fourteen, fifteen states next year, 589 00:23:26,994 --> 00:23:27,974 and reach 590 00:23:28,515 --> 00:23:30,775 the the teachers, reach the students. 591 00:23:31,154 --> 00:23:32,759 What's interesting is that 592 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,500 different states have realized 593 00:23:36,039 --> 00:23:38,460 that there is an opportunity here. And so 594 00:23:38,839 --> 00:23:40,940 be going into new states without 595 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,019 us providing any funding, 596 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:44,779 the states, governments, 597 00:23:45,785 --> 00:23:48,904 the educational departments in the states are willing 598 00:23:48,904 --> 00:23:51,804 to fund these efforts to bring these teachers 599 00:23:52,345 --> 00:23:54,044 to these hands on programs 600 00:23:54,424 --> 00:23:56,744 and learn basis of quantum so they can 601 00:23:56,744 --> 00:23:58,525 teach it to their high school students. 602 00:23:59,529 --> 00:24:01,390 And, again, we do it also in parallel 603 00:24:01,450 --> 00:24:02,109 with students, 604 00:24:03,369 --> 00:24:04,029 and that's, 605 00:24:04,730 --> 00:24:07,450 I think we've had three, four, 500 students 606 00:24:07,450 --> 00:24:08,250 that we have, 607 00:24:09,049 --> 00:24:10,910 introduced to quantum so far. 608 00:24:11,744 --> 00:24:12,644 Then there is 609 00:24:13,184 --> 00:24:13,684 another 610 00:24:14,144 --> 00:24:16,305 bridge in between, and that is we have 611 00:24:16,305 --> 00:24:18,065 the high school students. We have those that 612 00:24:18,065 --> 00:24:19,045 go to universities. 613 00:24:19,904 --> 00:24:22,464 But, really, where I see a change in 614 00:24:22,464 --> 00:24:25,125 the needs in in industry right now 615 00:24:25,424 --> 00:24:27,184 is that they are looking for a lot 616 00:24:27,184 --> 00:24:29,099 of skills that don't require 617 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,299 a a big degree, an an associate's degree 618 00:24:32,519 --> 00:24:33,426 or a 619 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,419 maybe a bachelor's degree. 620 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,339 But it's skills like how do we, fabricate 621 00:24:39,559 --> 00:24:41,880 large numbers of these quantum computers because we 622 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,454 are selling them, we're moving them. 623 00:24:43,934 --> 00:24:46,414 We need people that can install them, people 624 00:24:46,414 --> 00:24:47,634 that can do the wiring, 625 00:24:48,015 --> 00:24:50,815 people that can work with lasers, people that 626 00:24:50,815 --> 00:24:53,154 can work with cryo and build 627 00:24:53,534 --> 00:24:55,934 power plants for that for that matter to 628 00:24:55,934 --> 00:24:56,880 operate these systems. 629 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,079 And we need people that can code, that 630 00:25:00,079 --> 00:25:01,619 can program these systems, 631 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:02,500 or 632 00:25:03,039 --> 00:25:04,099 work with the controls, 633 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,619 do electronic controls, electrical engineering type roles. 634 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,815 So we actually are also in addition to 635 00:25:10,815 --> 00:25:13,455 growing our high school program. We're taking that 636 00:25:13,455 --> 00:25:15,695 program to what we have locally here in 637 00:25:15,695 --> 00:25:17,714 The US, which is community colleges. 638 00:25:18,815 --> 00:25:20,835 They are generally AA degrees. 639 00:25:21,710 --> 00:25:22,369 Those are 640 00:25:22,830 --> 00:25:25,009 students that will never hear about, 641 00:25:25,710 --> 00:25:28,670 about quantum. It's not a key part of 642 00:25:28,670 --> 00:25:29,330 their curriculum. 643 00:25:29,869 --> 00:25:31,549 And they don't need to hear a lot. 644 00:25:31,549 --> 00:25:33,309 They need to just know that that's a 645 00:25:33,309 --> 00:25:34,130 job opportunity, 646 00:25:34,545 --> 00:25:36,565 and it's a growing job opportunity. 647 00:25:37,025 --> 00:25:38,884 Right now, I would say 648 00:25:39,664 --> 00:25:40,965 the quantum industry, 649 00:25:41,904 --> 00:25:43,765 one in three jobs gets filled. 650 00:25:44,465 --> 00:25:46,305 That's how big our shortage is, and it's 651 00:25:46,305 --> 00:25:47,519 only going to get worse. 652 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,480 So we need to reach them everywhere. High 653 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:51,700 school, so they are 654 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,640 ready to go and get a degree that 655 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:55,779 allows them to go 656 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,720 into the quantum industry. We're trying to hit 657 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,119 them at the community colleges because that's the 658 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:01,619 opportunities. 659 00:26:01,994 --> 00:26:04,954 And then as part of the center that 660 00:26:04,954 --> 00:26:05,694 we have, 661 00:26:06,075 --> 00:26:07,535 we have twelve, fourteen, 662 00:26:08,315 --> 00:26:09,375 academic partners. 663 00:26:09,914 --> 00:26:12,714 They're bringing undergrads. They're bringing grad students, and 664 00:26:12,714 --> 00:26:13,775 they're bringing postdocs. 665 00:26:14,250 --> 00:26:16,890 So all of those together, you're trying to 666 00:26:16,890 --> 00:26:20,029 kinda cover a whole spectrum to make sure 667 00:26:20,250 --> 00:26:21,549 that we have the people, 668 00:26:22,650 --> 00:26:24,970 ready, not just now, but also in the 669 00:26:24,970 --> 00:26:25,470 future. 670 00:26:26,384 --> 00:26:29,285 And and, Bert, how did you first become 671 00:26:29,505 --> 00:26:33,045 interested in quantum science and technology? Your background 672 00:26:33,505 --> 00:26:36,305 is in chemistry and computer science, so, you 673 00:26:36,305 --> 00:26:38,484 know, it does make sense. But when 674 00:26:40,410 --> 00:26:41,950 when when were you first hooked? 675 00:26:43,769 --> 00:26:44,269 So, 676 00:26:44,809 --> 00:26:46,170 yeah, I can give you a little bit 677 00:26:46,170 --> 00:26:48,009 of a background. So, as I said, I'm 678 00:26:48,009 --> 00:26:50,835 a computational chemist, but my drive is not 679 00:26:51,075 --> 00:26:51,575 just 680 00:26:52,034 --> 00:26:55,095 computational chemistry. I'm just wanna solve scientific problems. 681 00:26:55,875 --> 00:26:57,634 I have a lot of interest in figuring 682 00:26:57,634 --> 00:26:59,634 out how to build better batteries, how to, 683 00:27:01,315 --> 00:27:04,835 generate energy source energy sources that are more 684 00:27:04,835 --> 00:27:05,335 efficient 685 00:27:06,289 --> 00:27:06,950 in general. 686 00:27:07,809 --> 00:27:10,289 For that, as a computational chemist, I use 687 00:27:10,289 --> 00:27:12,690 the tools that I have. So for the 688 00:27:12,690 --> 00:27:13,190 first 689 00:27:13,970 --> 00:27:16,849 half of my career, I focused primarily on 690 00:27:16,849 --> 00:27:17,990 HPC, building 691 00:27:18,695 --> 00:27:21,835 quantum chemistry codes that could scale on exascale 692 00:27:21,974 --> 00:27:22,474 platforms. 693 00:27:24,055 --> 00:27:26,234 So we actually build one of those. 694 00:27:27,095 --> 00:27:29,575 But we know we still have limits because 695 00:27:29,575 --> 00:27:32,660 of the computational methods we use. They fundamentally 696 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:33,619 are 697 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:34,500 exponentially, 698 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,420 growing in in the complexity of the problem. 699 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:39,460 And so 700 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:40,960 when I came 701 00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:42,880 so I spent most of my time the 702 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:44,720 first half of my career also at Pacific 703 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,644 Northwest National Lab. When I moved to Lawrence 704 00:27:47,644 --> 00:27:49,884 Berkeley National Lab, I started to think a 705 00:27:49,884 --> 00:27:51,105 little bit more holistically. 706 00:27:51,404 --> 00:27:52,625 So what is next? 707 00:27:53,005 --> 00:27:56,044 If an exascale computer comes, how far can 708 00:27:56,044 --> 00:27:57,585 they scale beyond that? 709 00:27:58,605 --> 00:27:59,825 Are there other technologies? 710 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,419 And so that's when, about 711 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,519 eleven years ago, I really started to look 712 00:28:05,519 --> 00:28:08,880 at, hey. Quantum could be another technology that 713 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,460 I can use to solve scientific problems. 714 00:28:12,319 --> 00:28:13,940 AI could be another technology 715 00:28:14,505 --> 00:28:15,964 that I can use. So 716 00:28:16,265 --> 00:28:19,164 right now, while quantum is my biggest portfolio, 717 00:28:19,305 --> 00:28:21,384 I also have a program in AI. I 718 00:28:21,384 --> 00:28:22,845 have a program in HPC 719 00:28:23,305 --> 00:28:25,945 because to me, it's the I'm building the 720 00:28:25,945 --> 00:28:28,345 tools so I can do the science to 721 00:28:28,345 --> 00:28:28,845 deliver, 722 00:28:29,970 --> 00:28:33,329 scientific discovery. So I got into quantum about 723 00:28:33,329 --> 00:28:34,470 eleven years ago, 724 00:28:34,930 --> 00:28:37,650 really started helped start that program here at 725 00:28:37,650 --> 00:28:40,070 Berkeley Lab, and it has just taken off, 726 00:28:40,529 --> 00:28:42,914 since then. I used I ran a lot 727 00:28:42,994 --> 00:28:44,515 I still run a lot of programs that 728 00:28:44,515 --> 00:28:46,835 are focused on actually the algorithms, the software 729 00:28:46,835 --> 00:28:47,335 side 730 00:28:47,954 --> 00:28:49,815 of building these quantum computers. 731 00:28:50,994 --> 00:28:52,375 But I've gotten myself 732 00:28:53,315 --> 00:28:56,099 three, four years ago involved with, with the 733 00:28:56,099 --> 00:28:57,480 quantum system accelerator. 734 00:28:57,940 --> 00:28:59,779 And then when there's had to be a 735 00:28:59,779 --> 00:29:02,519 transition of leadership, I took over this program, 736 00:29:02,819 --> 00:29:05,400 which is an interesting experience on its own 737 00:29:05,460 --> 00:29:08,839 because I work lot now with experimental physicists, 738 00:29:09,220 --> 00:29:09,720 engineers, 739 00:29:10,355 --> 00:29:13,075 which is very different from the world that 740 00:29:13,075 --> 00:29:14,674 I have come from, but it's also a 741 00:29:14,674 --> 00:29:15,315 very exciting, 742 00:29:16,914 --> 00:29:18,515 a role to have at this point in 743 00:29:18,515 --> 00:29:20,835 time and and when it comes to where 744 00:29:20,835 --> 00:29:23,015 quantum information sciences is going. 745 00:29:23,899 --> 00:29:26,460 And and, Bert, let's say that, you know, 746 00:29:26,460 --> 00:29:28,799 you and your colleagues at QSA, 747 00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:31,259 you know, you're involved in a in a 748 00:29:31,259 --> 00:29:33,759 in a major breakthrough in, I don't know, 749 00:29:34,139 --> 00:29:34,639 creating 750 00:29:35,500 --> 00:29:36,240 a scalable 751 00:29:36,859 --> 00:29:39,440 system of qubits. And all of a sudden, 752 00:29:39,544 --> 00:29:41,304 you have your hands on a on a 753 00:29:41,304 --> 00:29:42,125 very powerful 754 00:29:42,664 --> 00:29:43,804 quantum computer. 755 00:29:44,825 --> 00:29:48,204 As a computer scientist and chemist, what problem 756 00:29:48,265 --> 00:29:50,204 would you want to solve first? 757 00:29:50,585 --> 00:29:52,825 I mean, has there been a problem that 758 00:29:52,825 --> 00:29:55,779 you've that you've struggled with your entire career 759 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,140 and, you could suddenly be able to solve 760 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,700 if you had access to such a powerful 761 00:30:01,759 --> 00:30:02,740 quantum computer? 762 00:30:05,585 --> 00:30:07,664 How many do you want? That's the real 763 00:30:07,664 --> 00:30:10,484 problem, I think. Any problem that we tackle 764 00:30:10,545 --> 00:30:12,865 and the the computational methods that we need 765 00:30:12,865 --> 00:30:14,484 to use to get the accuracy, 766 00:30:15,664 --> 00:30:17,045 they require this. 767 00:30:17,904 --> 00:30:18,404 So, 768 00:30:18,865 --> 00:30:19,365 everybody 769 00:30:19,825 --> 00:30:20,644 talks about 770 00:30:21,109 --> 00:30:22,490 systems like the 771 00:30:22,950 --> 00:30:24,250 for nitrogen fixation. 772 00:30:25,910 --> 00:30:27,670 Turns out that that's not a ground state 773 00:30:27,670 --> 00:30:30,230 problem. That is a dynamics problem. And so 774 00:30:30,230 --> 00:30:32,490 dynamics problems are very much 775 00:30:33,704 --> 00:30:36,285 very hard to tackle on classical computers, 776 00:30:37,625 --> 00:30:38,525 the time evolution, 777 00:30:39,224 --> 00:30:40,924 the complexity of the problem. 778 00:30:41,545 --> 00:30:42,285 So that's 779 00:30:42,664 --> 00:30:45,005 definitely one that I would like to demonstrate 780 00:30:45,144 --> 00:30:46,984 in the short term that we can actually 781 00:30:46,984 --> 00:30:49,440 do the dynamics and understand the real chemical 782 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:49,940 process 783 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:51,539 that drives the catalysis, 784 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:53,700 of a nitrogen 785 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:54,740 to ammonia. 786 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,480 The other ones that I'm really interested in 787 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,740 is is things like organic photovoltaics. 788 00:31:01,454 --> 00:31:02,994 Those are low energy ones. 789 00:31:04,095 --> 00:31:06,194 If you look at, a lot of needs, 790 00:31:06,815 --> 00:31:07,794 we don't need, 791 00:31:09,134 --> 00:31:12,335 conversion of, in high energy ranges or high 792 00:31:12,335 --> 00:31:13,954 temperature ranges, but rather 793 00:31:14,815 --> 00:31:16,914 do it in low temperature ranges. So 794 00:31:17,490 --> 00:31:19,809 close to boiling water, for example. That is 795 00:31:19,809 --> 00:31:21,269 a small energy range 796 00:31:21,570 --> 00:31:23,509 that you can do with organic photovoltaics. 797 00:31:23,809 --> 00:31:26,450 They are not very efficient right now. Can 798 00:31:26,450 --> 00:31:29,570 we actually use quantum computers to simulate and 799 00:31:29,570 --> 00:31:30,869 understand these processes 800 00:31:31,174 --> 00:31:33,335 and not just simulate them, but then also 801 00:31:33,335 --> 00:31:34,234 combine that 802 00:31:34,694 --> 00:31:36,554 with AI and discover 803 00:31:37,174 --> 00:31:37,674 new 804 00:31:37,974 --> 00:31:38,474 materials, 805 00:31:39,335 --> 00:31:42,154 new organic materials that can do this. 806 00:31:43,095 --> 00:31:45,494 There's also a drive on figuring out how 807 00:31:45,494 --> 00:31:46,554 to handle carbon. 808 00:31:47,309 --> 00:31:49,649 That's now a little bit of a less, 809 00:31:51,069 --> 00:31:53,569 focused area right now simply because, 810 00:31:54,990 --> 00:31:57,549 that is not a priority for department of 811 00:31:57,549 --> 00:31:59,169 energy at this point in time. 812 00:32:00,109 --> 00:32:00,609 But, 813 00:32:01,149 --> 00:32:01,809 my ultimate 814 00:32:02,109 --> 00:32:04,184 would be, can I build a, 815 00:32:04,664 --> 00:32:05,565 so for California, 816 00:32:05,944 --> 00:32:07,325 can I build a desalination 817 00:32:07,704 --> 00:32:10,904 plant that is, energy neutral? That would be 818 00:32:10,904 --> 00:32:13,785 my ultimate mission, which is where it comes 819 00:32:13,785 --> 00:32:14,285 into 820 00:32:14,825 --> 00:32:15,724 how can we 821 00:32:16,345 --> 00:32:17,404 recover materials, 822 00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:18,619 how can we, 823 00:32:20,599 --> 00:32:23,480 store energy that we are generating from solar 824 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,400 during the day. So we need more efficient 825 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,880 solar, but we need very efficient batteries so 826 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,980 we can run this plant twenty four seven. 827 00:32:30,674 --> 00:32:33,154 But, also, how can we recover as much 828 00:32:33,154 --> 00:32:35,555 energy that we use? For example, if we 829 00:32:35,555 --> 00:32:38,515 boil water to, take get the fresh water 830 00:32:38,515 --> 00:32:39,015 out, 831 00:32:39,394 --> 00:32:41,394 how do we cool it down and recover 832 00:32:41,394 --> 00:32:43,394 as much energy, which is where the organic 833 00:32:43,394 --> 00:32:43,894 photovoltaics 834 00:32:44,275 --> 00:32:46,190 play in. So there is a lot of 835 00:32:46,190 --> 00:32:46,690 components. 836 00:32:47,230 --> 00:32:49,390 So my old that's my ultimate dream. Can 837 00:32:49,390 --> 00:32:51,789 I build one that is energy and cost 838 00:32:51,789 --> 00:32:52,289 neutral? 839 00:32:53,869 --> 00:32:55,730 But there is a lot of fundamental 840 00:32:56,109 --> 00:32:59,009 chemistry and material sciences that has to happen, 841 00:32:59,464 --> 00:33:01,884 And those are problems that are too challenging 842 00:33:01,945 --> 00:33:04,765 to solve right now on classical computers. 843 00:33:06,184 --> 00:33:07,865 Well, that's great. That sounds like a very 844 00:33:07,865 --> 00:33:10,904 laudable goal, Bert. Thanks so much for coming 845 00:33:10,904 --> 00:33:11,724 on the podcast 846 00:33:12,210 --> 00:33:14,710 and talking about the QSA and your research. 847 00:33:16,049 --> 00:33:16,789 You're welcome. 848 00:33:17,490 --> 00:33:19,509 This was fun talking to you. 849 00:33:27,045 --> 00:33:29,625 This podcast is brought to you by Oxford 850 00:33:29,765 --> 00:33:30,265 IONIX, 851 00:33:30,805 --> 00:33:32,585 an ion q company. 852 00:33:33,125 --> 00:33:36,105 For more information about Oxford IONIX, 853 00:33:36,485 --> 00:33:41,545 visit www.oxionix.com. 854 00:33:42,329 --> 00:33:44,169 I'm afraid that's all the time we have 855 00:33:44,169 --> 00:33:45,309 for this week's episode. 856 00:33:45,690 --> 00:33:48,890 I'm Hamish Johnston, and our producer is Fred 857 00:33:48,890 --> 00:33:49,390 Iles. 858 00:33:49,849 --> 00:33:52,349 The original theme music for this podcast 859 00:33:52,650 --> 00:33:54,750 is called one three seven, 860 00:33:55,134 --> 00:33:57,154 and it was composed and performed 861 00:33:57,535 --> 00:33:58,434 by the physicist 862 00:33:58,974 --> 00:33:59,954 Philip Moriarty.