1 00:00:07,919 --> 00:00:11,279 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly 2 00:00:11,279 --> 00:00:11,779 podcast. 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:13,299 I'm Hamish Johnston. 4 00:00:14,174 --> 00:00:16,434 My guest is the plasma physicist, 5 00:00:16,734 --> 00:00:17,714 Debbie Callahan. 6 00:00:18,335 --> 00:00:21,614 She spent thirty five years working at the 7 00:00:21,614 --> 00:00:23,474 national ignition facility 8 00:00:23,934 --> 00:00:25,474 at Lawrence Livermore 9 00:00:26,015 --> 00:00:26,994 National Laboratory 10 00:00:27,535 --> 00:00:28,434 in The US 11 00:00:29,089 --> 00:00:30,390 before she joined 12 00:00:30,769 --> 00:00:31,829 Focused Energy, 13 00:00:32,369 --> 00:00:37,030 a California and Germany based fusion energy startup. 14 00:00:38,130 --> 00:00:41,350 That conversation is coming up after this message 15 00:00:41,409 --> 00:00:42,390 about a webinar 16 00:00:42,895 --> 00:00:43,875 that we're presenting 17 00:00:44,255 --> 00:00:46,274 with Leo Cancer Care. 18 00:00:46,895 --> 00:00:48,515 It's called unlocking 19 00:00:49,054 --> 00:00:52,435 novel radiation beams for cancer treatment 20 00:00:52,895 --> 00:00:55,075 with upright patient positioning. 21 00:00:56,100 --> 00:00:59,320 It will feature a panel of leading clinicians 22 00:00:59,619 --> 00:01:00,520 and experts 23 00:01:00,979 --> 00:01:04,040 who will discuss how the shift in patient 24 00:01:04,180 --> 00:01:04,680 positioning 25 00:01:05,140 --> 00:01:06,760 is enabling the exploration 26 00:01:07,379 --> 00:01:09,159 of new treatment geometries, 27 00:01:09,984 --> 00:01:11,844 and supporting the development 28 00:01:12,224 --> 00:01:13,045 of advanced 29 00:01:13,584 --> 00:01:15,444 future cancer therapies. 30 00:01:16,305 --> 00:01:19,444 This live event is aimed at medical physicists, 31 00:01:20,385 --> 00:01:21,685 radiation oncologists, 32 00:01:22,864 --> 00:01:23,364 radiotherapy 33 00:01:23,825 --> 00:01:24,325 planners, 34 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:25,659 and researchers 35 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:26,859 in the field. 36 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:28,140 Participants 37 00:01:28,599 --> 00:01:32,219 will learn about this paradigm shift in radiation 38 00:01:32,439 --> 00:01:32,939 therapy, 39 00:01:33,719 --> 00:01:35,019 gain an understanding 40 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,099 of emerging and novel 41 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:39,180 radiation beam modalities, 42 00:01:40,105 --> 00:01:41,805 and discover how foundational 43 00:01:42,504 --> 00:01:43,004 radiation 44 00:01:43,305 --> 00:01:43,805 physics 45 00:01:44,185 --> 00:01:47,004 translates into real world impact 46 00:01:47,465 --> 00:01:48,685 in cancer care. 47 00:01:49,385 --> 00:01:52,524 The webinar is on the February 17 48 00:01:53,144 --> 00:01:54,284 at 4PM 49 00:01:54,665 --> 00:01:55,165 GMT. 50 00:01:55,890 --> 00:01:57,829 That's 11AM 51 00:01:57,890 --> 00:01:59,510 Eastern Standard Time. 52 00:02:00,130 --> 00:02:02,469 You can register for this free event 53 00:02:02,770 --> 00:02:04,790 on the physics world website. 54 00:02:06,689 --> 00:02:09,509 Broadly speaking, physicists and engineers 55 00:02:09,810 --> 00:02:10,469 are exploring 56 00:02:10,995 --> 00:02:12,215 two different ways 57 00:02:12,594 --> 00:02:15,254 of generating energy from nuclear fusion. 58 00:02:16,675 --> 00:02:20,355 One involves using magnetic fields to create and 59 00:02:20,355 --> 00:02:20,855 maintain 60 00:02:21,235 --> 00:02:22,935 a plasma of hydrogen 61 00:02:23,235 --> 00:02:26,039 that is so hot and so dense that 62 00:02:26,039 --> 00:02:28,379 its nuclei can fuse together, 63 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:30,939 releasing huge amounts of energy. 64 00:02:31,959 --> 00:02:34,300 The other involves firing intense 65 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:35,580 laser pulses 66 00:02:35,879 --> 00:02:37,419 at a hydrogen target, 67 00:02:38,125 --> 00:02:40,784 compressing and heating it to achieve 68 00:02:41,085 --> 00:02:41,585 fusion. 69 00:02:42,444 --> 00:02:45,264 Focused Energy is taking the latter approach, 70 00:02:45,564 --> 00:02:48,205 and I'm very pleased to be joined by 71 00:02:48,205 --> 00:02:49,344 Debbie Callahan, 72 00:02:49,805 --> 00:02:51,504 who is the company's chief 73 00:02:51,860 --> 00:02:53,000 strategy officer. 74 00:02:53,539 --> 00:02:54,280 Hi, Debbie. 75 00:02:54,739 --> 00:02:55,959 Welcome to the podcast. 76 00:02:56,419 --> 00:02:58,280 Hi, Hamish. It's nice to be here. 77 00:02:58,659 --> 00:03:00,900 So, Debbie, you spent thirty five years at 78 00:03:00,900 --> 00:03:02,840 the national ignition facility 79 00:03:03,219 --> 00:03:04,599 at Lawrence Livermore 80 00:03:05,060 --> 00:03:06,120 National Laboratory. 81 00:03:06,754 --> 00:03:09,955 Can you explain how fusion is achieved at 82 00:03:09,955 --> 00:03:10,455 NIF 83 00:03:10,754 --> 00:03:12,935 and how that differs from the approach 84 00:03:13,314 --> 00:03:15,574 taken by magnetic confinement 85 00:03:15,875 --> 00:03:16,375 facilities 86 00:03:16,915 --> 00:03:19,875 such as ITER, which is being built in 87 00:03:19,875 --> 00:03:20,375 France? 88 00:03:21,949 --> 00:03:22,849 Yeah. Sure. 89 00:03:23,549 --> 00:03:25,870 In order to get fusion to happen, you 90 00:03:25,870 --> 00:03:27,489 need sort of three elements, 91 00:03:27,949 --> 00:03:30,129 that we sometimes call the triple product. 92 00:03:30,509 --> 00:03:32,430 So you need a a a certain amount 93 00:03:32,430 --> 00:03:34,289 of density in your plasma, 94 00:03:34,814 --> 00:03:36,114 you need temperature, 95 00:03:36,414 --> 00:03:37,634 and you need time. 96 00:03:38,495 --> 00:03:40,495 And so the product of those has to 97 00:03:40,495 --> 00:03:43,455 be over a certain value. So magnetic fusion 98 00:03:43,455 --> 00:03:44,675 and inertial fusion 99 00:03:45,055 --> 00:03:46,814 are kind of the opposite of each other. 100 00:03:46,814 --> 00:03:48,435 So in a magnetic fusion, 101 00:03:48,810 --> 00:03:51,610 you have a low density plasma, but you 102 00:03:51,610 --> 00:03:53,449 hold it for a long time. And you 103 00:03:53,449 --> 00:03:55,469 do that by using magnetic fields 104 00:03:55,849 --> 00:03:57,770 that, you know, trap the plasma and keep 105 00:03:57,770 --> 00:03:59,610 it from escaping. And so that's what's being 106 00:03:59,610 --> 00:04:02,030 done on ITER and other magnetic fusion 107 00:04:02,889 --> 00:04:03,389 facilities. 108 00:04:04,254 --> 00:04:05,955 In inertial fusion, it's the opposite. 109 00:04:06,655 --> 00:04:08,574 We don't hold the plasma together at all. 110 00:04:08,574 --> 00:04:10,895 It's only held by its own inertia. That's 111 00:04:10,895 --> 00:04:13,314 where the term inertial fusion comes from. 112 00:04:14,014 --> 00:04:15,935 But we have a very high density. So 113 00:04:15,935 --> 00:04:17,774 we have a very high density for a 114 00:04:17,774 --> 00:04:20,870 short time. Magnetic fusion has a low density 115 00:04:20,870 --> 00:04:22,389 for a long time. And so in both 116 00:04:22,389 --> 00:04:22,889 cases, 117 00:04:23,589 --> 00:04:24,410 you can, 118 00:04:24,790 --> 00:04:25,930 make fusion happen. 119 00:04:27,110 --> 00:04:28,949 I see. And and what is the state 120 00:04:28,949 --> 00:04:29,770 of the art, 121 00:04:30,230 --> 00:04:32,330 at the moment at the national 122 00:04:32,710 --> 00:04:33,770 ignition facility? 123 00:04:34,605 --> 00:04:36,365 You know, just in terms of of how 124 00:04:36,365 --> 00:04:39,165 much energy you have to put in to 125 00:04:39,165 --> 00:04:39,665 achieve 126 00:04:40,045 --> 00:04:40,545 fusion 127 00:04:40,925 --> 00:04:43,004 versus the amount of energy that you get 128 00:04:43,004 --> 00:04:43,504 out? 129 00:04:44,285 --> 00:04:46,139 So the best shot to date on NIF 130 00:04:46,220 --> 00:04:48,620 has achieved a target gain of four just 131 00:04:48,620 --> 00:04:50,879 over four, about 4.1. 132 00:04:51,259 --> 00:04:53,740 And that used about two megajoules of laser 133 00:04:53,740 --> 00:04:56,379 energy, so about eight megajoules, a little over 134 00:04:56,379 --> 00:04:57,040 eight megajoules 135 00:04:57,340 --> 00:04:57,840 out. 136 00:04:58,379 --> 00:05:00,720 This is a tremendous scientific accomplishment, 137 00:05:01,144 --> 00:05:02,665 you know, that's taken us a long time 138 00:05:02,665 --> 00:05:04,685 to get to, and super exciting. 139 00:05:05,144 --> 00:05:06,045 You know, for 140 00:05:06,425 --> 00:05:09,305 to make energy, for inertial fusion energy, we 141 00:05:09,305 --> 00:05:11,404 do need significantly higher gains, 142 00:05:12,264 --> 00:05:14,605 gains of something like 50 to a 100. 143 00:05:14,970 --> 00:05:16,490 So we're at four, but we need to 144 00:05:16,490 --> 00:05:18,410 get to 50 or a 100, in order 145 00:05:18,410 --> 00:05:20,330 to make a pie power plant out of 146 00:05:20,330 --> 00:05:20,830 fusion. 147 00:05:21,930 --> 00:05:24,009 I see. And and that I suppose that 148 00:05:24,009 --> 00:05:25,550 takes us, very neatly 149 00:05:25,930 --> 00:05:27,230 to my next question. 150 00:05:28,330 --> 00:05:30,350 You've since made the move to industry, 151 00:05:30,834 --> 00:05:33,095 and your target design lead 152 00:05:33,474 --> 00:05:37,414 at, a California based company called Focused Energy. 153 00:05:38,034 --> 00:05:39,875 Can you can you give us a brief 154 00:05:39,875 --> 00:05:41,254 history of the company 155 00:05:41,555 --> 00:05:44,134 and its approach to fusion energy? 156 00:05:45,430 --> 00:05:47,689 Yes. Absolutely. So Focused Energy, 157 00:05:49,269 --> 00:05:51,529 started in 2021. 158 00:05:52,149 --> 00:05:52,649 Ironically, 159 00:05:53,509 --> 00:05:56,389 the company was founded one month before we 160 00:05:56,389 --> 00:05:57,449 achieved scientific 161 00:05:57,750 --> 00:05:58,250 ignition, 162 00:05:58,735 --> 00:06:00,814 which is not the same as as GAIN 163 00:06:00,814 --> 00:06:03,824 greater than one. We achieved that in August 164 00:06:03,824 --> 00:06:04,675 2021, 165 00:06:04,895 --> 00:06:07,395 and the company was founded in July. So 166 00:06:07,775 --> 00:06:09,634 good job from our our founders. 167 00:06:10,889 --> 00:06:11,389 The 168 00:06:12,009 --> 00:06:14,889 the company is has offices in The United 169 00:06:14,889 --> 00:06:16,270 States and in Germany. 170 00:06:17,210 --> 00:06:18,670 In Germany, particularly, 171 00:06:19,290 --> 00:06:21,790 it's in Darmstadt, which is near Frankfurt. 172 00:06:23,545 --> 00:06:25,944 And our approach is to use what we 173 00:06:25,944 --> 00:06:27,884 call laser direct drive, 174 00:06:28,665 --> 00:06:30,425 and that's as opposed to what's done on 175 00:06:30,425 --> 00:06:33,324 NIF, which is called laser indirect drive. 176 00:06:33,944 --> 00:06:36,824 And the difference between that is in what 177 00:06:36,824 --> 00:06:39,129 what we did on NIF is we put 178 00:06:39,129 --> 00:06:41,470 the lasers into a small cylinder 179 00:06:41,770 --> 00:06:42,270 of 180 00:06:42,730 --> 00:06:46,189 of gold or depleted uranium and convert those 181 00:06:47,050 --> 00:06:49,529 that laser energy into X rays, and the 182 00:06:49,529 --> 00:06:51,389 X rays drive the capsule. 183 00:06:52,475 --> 00:06:54,095 For our company, we're, 184 00:06:54,875 --> 00:06:57,514 directly driving the capsule. That means the laser 185 00:06:57,514 --> 00:07:00,634 energy is put directly on the capsule. There's 186 00:07:00,634 --> 00:07:01,455 no intermediary 187 00:07:01,995 --> 00:07:03,675 of the X rays as you have an 188 00:07:03,675 --> 00:07:04,654 indirect drive. 189 00:07:05,035 --> 00:07:07,110 The reason for doing that is that, 190 00:07:07,750 --> 00:07:08,250 that 191 00:07:08,870 --> 00:07:12,089 converting to X rays is, not very efficient, 192 00:07:12,310 --> 00:07:14,229 and so it makes it much more difficult 193 00:07:14,229 --> 00:07:16,229 to get the high target gains that we 194 00:07:16,229 --> 00:07:17,909 needed that we just talked about a minute 195 00:07:17,909 --> 00:07:18,409 ago. 196 00:07:18,870 --> 00:07:20,409 And so we believe that 197 00:07:20,709 --> 00:07:22,725 that direct drive is 198 00:07:23,025 --> 00:07:25,904 the the best, option to go for for 199 00:07:25,904 --> 00:07:28,305 fusion energy to get us from that gain 200 00:07:28,305 --> 00:07:30,464 of four to the gain of 50 or 201 00:07:30,464 --> 00:07:32,064 a 100 that we would need for a 202 00:07:32,064 --> 00:07:32,884 power plant. 203 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:34,339 I see. 204 00:07:34,959 --> 00:07:37,040 And in terms of efficiency, I mean, at 205 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,379 Lawrence Livermore, you have access to 206 00:07:40,079 --> 00:07:40,579 extraordinarily 207 00:07:41,199 --> 00:07:41,699 powerful 208 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:42,740 lasers. 209 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:44,660 And, 210 00:07:45,439 --> 00:07:46,500 I mean, I suppose 211 00:07:47,555 --> 00:07:49,574 even if you could build a power plant 212 00:07:49,794 --> 00:07:52,194 based on the technology there, you would you 213 00:07:52,194 --> 00:07:54,514 would still need these huge lasers, and I'm 214 00:07:54,514 --> 00:07:55,735 guessing it would probably 215 00:07:56,035 --> 00:07:57,574 not be a very efficient 216 00:07:57,875 --> 00:07:59,014 system overall. 217 00:07:59,589 --> 00:08:01,430 Is is that the sort of the key 218 00:08:01,430 --> 00:08:01,930 goal, 219 00:08:03,029 --> 00:08:04,870 you know, with what you and your colleagues 220 00:08:04,870 --> 00:08:08,169 are doing in industry now? You're trying to 221 00:08:08,949 --> 00:08:10,009 boost this efficiency, 222 00:08:10,709 --> 00:08:12,555 as much as you can to make it 223 00:08:12,954 --> 00:08:14,634 a sort of a practical thing that can 224 00:08:14,634 --> 00:08:16,414 run at an industrial level. 225 00:08:17,354 --> 00:08:19,854 Right. Exactly. That's exactly right. 226 00:08:20,314 --> 00:08:22,074 You have to remember that the NIF, the 227 00:08:22,074 --> 00:08:23,454 natural ignition facility, 228 00:08:24,235 --> 00:08:27,430 was funded for national security purposes, not for 229 00:08:27,430 --> 00:08:30,250 fusion energy. And so it wasn't designed, 230 00:08:31,589 --> 00:08:32,970 to be a power plant, 231 00:08:33,429 --> 00:08:35,269 and have all the elements we need for 232 00:08:35,269 --> 00:08:36,169 a power plant. 233 00:08:36,549 --> 00:08:39,129 In particular, the laser is very inefficient. 234 00:08:40,095 --> 00:08:42,815 So, again, for fusion energy, you know, for 235 00:08:42,815 --> 00:08:44,975 power generation, we believe we need to have 236 00:08:44,975 --> 00:08:47,315 the laser be about 10% efficient. 237 00:08:47,774 --> 00:08:50,174 NIF is less than 1% efficient, and that's 238 00:08:50,174 --> 00:08:51,929 just because that wasn't the goal. 239 00:08:53,049 --> 00:08:54,330 The goal was to do this for the 240 00:08:54,330 --> 00:08:55,049 first time. 241 00:08:55,769 --> 00:08:58,089 And so that's one of the big thrusts 242 00:08:58,089 --> 00:09:00,110 of our company is to develop, 243 00:09:01,210 --> 00:09:04,169 more efficient lasers that are driven by diodes. 244 00:09:04,169 --> 00:09:06,350 They're called diode pump solid state lasers, 245 00:09:06,875 --> 00:09:09,034 which will be much more efficient than MIF, 246 00:09:09,034 --> 00:09:10,095 and that's required 247 00:09:10,394 --> 00:09:12,394 that's one of the elements that's required for 248 00:09:12,394 --> 00:09:13,294 fusion energy, 249 00:09:13,914 --> 00:09:15,835 that we're that is a big thrust for 250 00:09:15,835 --> 00:09:16,495 our company. 251 00:09:17,595 --> 00:09:20,335 And can you talk a bit more about 252 00:09:20,394 --> 00:09:21,455 focused energies? 253 00:09:22,315 --> 00:09:24,820 Well, well, I suppose the two technologies that 254 00:09:24,820 --> 00:09:27,080 the company is developing. One is called 255 00:09:27,460 --> 00:09:27,960 Lighthouse, 256 00:09:28,340 --> 00:09:29,720 and the other is called 257 00:09:30,179 --> 00:09:32,500 Pearl Fuel. Can you can you tell us 258 00:09:32,500 --> 00:09:34,279 a bit more about those two technologies? 259 00:09:35,524 --> 00:09:37,925 Yeah. So the thing we call lighthouse is 260 00:09:37,925 --> 00:09:40,565 our fusion. We call another term for it 261 00:09:40,565 --> 00:09:42,264 is the fusion pilot plant. 262 00:09:42,725 --> 00:09:44,024 It will be the first, 263 00:09:44,644 --> 00:09:47,285 power plant that will produce what we call 264 00:09:47,285 --> 00:09:50,179 engineering gain greater than one. That means that 265 00:09:50,179 --> 00:09:52,759 it will produce more energy than the electricity 266 00:09:52,980 --> 00:09:55,220 that it took to drive it. So remember, 267 00:09:55,220 --> 00:09:58,019 on NIF, it's the amount of energy out 268 00:09:58,019 --> 00:10:00,500 is relative to the amount of laser energy. 269 00:10:00,500 --> 00:10:02,259 But as we just said, the laser is 270 00:10:02,259 --> 00:10:03,799 very inefficient. And so 271 00:10:04,154 --> 00:10:06,815 the the engineering gain, the amount of electricity 272 00:10:06,875 --> 00:10:08,975 we had to put in to produce that 273 00:10:09,195 --> 00:10:09,934 eight megajoules 274 00:10:10,394 --> 00:10:12,875 of fusion energy is, you know, is a 275 00:10:12,875 --> 00:10:13,375 lot. 276 00:10:13,995 --> 00:10:17,914 And so we're now targeting engineering gain where 277 00:10:17,914 --> 00:10:19,134 we actually produce 278 00:10:19,789 --> 00:10:20,690 net electricity. 279 00:10:21,949 --> 00:10:23,309 And that's what will be done in that 280 00:10:23,309 --> 00:10:23,809 lighthouse, 281 00:10:25,709 --> 00:10:28,029 fusion pilot plant. So that will be the 282 00:10:28,029 --> 00:10:28,769 first demonstration. 283 00:10:29,629 --> 00:10:32,325 So the pearl is the capsule. That's the 284 00:10:32,404 --> 00:10:35,304 piece that holds the deuterium and tritium fuel, 285 00:10:35,764 --> 00:10:37,865 that we that we implode to 286 00:10:38,245 --> 00:10:41,205 fusion conditions. That's similar to what we did 287 00:10:41,205 --> 00:10:42,024 on NIF. 288 00:10:42,644 --> 00:10:44,565 There there was a capsule inside of that 289 00:10:44,565 --> 00:10:46,725 holoron. We talked before about the holoron that 290 00:10:46,725 --> 00:10:49,470 converted the laser light into X rays. 291 00:10:50,169 --> 00:10:51,549 So the capsules are similar, 292 00:10:52,490 --> 00:10:54,570 but, you know, they're different in that it's 293 00:10:54,570 --> 00:10:56,750 direct drive. So there's there's differences 294 00:10:57,450 --> 00:10:59,470 there's differences and very many similarities. 295 00:11:01,084 --> 00:11:03,105 So so when you talk about the capsule, 296 00:11:03,964 --> 00:11:06,845 I suppose you want the the capsule to 297 00:11:06,845 --> 00:11:07,345 absorb 298 00:11:07,884 --> 00:11:11,164 the laser energy and and give as much 299 00:11:11,164 --> 00:11:12,944 of that energy to the fuel 300 00:11:13,490 --> 00:11:16,629 as possible. Does it so I'm guessing that 301 00:11:16,769 --> 00:11:19,190 the the material that you make the capsule 302 00:11:19,250 --> 00:11:22,789 out of and its shape are very important. 303 00:11:22,850 --> 00:11:25,009 Are those the are those the the two 304 00:11:25,009 --> 00:11:25,509 key 305 00:11:25,889 --> 00:11:27,889 parameters that you have to deal with when 306 00:11:27,889 --> 00:11:28,709 you're developing 307 00:11:29,014 --> 00:11:29,595 the capsule. 308 00:11:31,095 --> 00:11:33,414 Yeah. The the that's correct. The, 309 00:11:34,215 --> 00:11:36,215 the development of the capsule for a fusion 310 00:11:36,215 --> 00:11:38,394 power plant is actually quite complicated 311 00:11:38,774 --> 00:11:39,274 because, 312 00:11:39,654 --> 00:11:41,254 as you say, we need it to be 313 00:11:41,254 --> 00:11:42,075 very spherical, 314 00:11:44,190 --> 00:11:46,129 because it needs to compress spherically. 315 00:11:46,750 --> 00:11:49,410 The materials need to absorb the laser light, 316 00:11:50,350 --> 00:11:52,830 efficiently in order to, you know, minimize the 317 00:11:52,830 --> 00:11:55,070 size of laser. But then you have to 318 00:11:55,070 --> 00:11:56,669 realize we have to be able to produce 319 00:11:56,669 --> 00:11:57,490 these targets. 320 00:11:57,794 --> 00:11:59,714 And, you know, so while NIF does about 321 00:11:59,714 --> 00:12:01,654 400 shots per year, 322 00:12:02,034 --> 00:12:03,735 we need to do about 323 00:12:04,434 --> 00:12:05,554 900,000 324 00:12:05,554 --> 00:12:08,034 shots per day. We need to operate at 325 00:12:08,034 --> 00:12:10,434 a at a repetition rate about 10 shots 326 00:12:10,434 --> 00:12:11,095 per second. 327 00:12:11,450 --> 00:12:12,889 So it needs to be something that we 328 00:12:12,889 --> 00:12:13,549 can manufacture 329 00:12:14,809 --> 00:12:15,710 cheaply, quickly. 330 00:12:16,570 --> 00:12:18,590 And so that goes into it as well. 331 00:12:18,809 --> 00:12:20,889 And then the last piece is after the 332 00:12:20,889 --> 00:12:21,870 target explodes, 333 00:12:22,730 --> 00:12:23,774 it goes into the reactor 334 00:12:28,815 --> 00:12:29,795 chamber, efficiently 335 00:12:30,335 --> 00:12:32,495 so that we can, you know, clear the 336 00:12:32,495 --> 00:12:34,815 chamber to make the have the next shot 337 00:12:34,815 --> 00:12:35,315 happen. 338 00:12:36,095 --> 00:12:38,495 So the actual design, which is this is 339 00:12:38,495 --> 00:12:40,690 kind of my area. That actual design is 340 00:12:40,690 --> 00:12:42,710 actually very complicated. It involves 341 00:12:43,170 --> 00:12:45,730 bringing together all the pieces of the power 342 00:12:45,730 --> 00:12:47,889 plant and making sure we have a design 343 00:12:47,889 --> 00:12:49,910 that's consistent with with everything. 344 00:12:50,930 --> 00:12:52,725 I see. And and when you're when when 345 00:12:52,725 --> 00:12:54,024 you're doing the design, 346 00:12:54,404 --> 00:12:57,204 do do you have I'm guessing you're do 347 00:12:57,204 --> 00:12:59,225 do you do a lot of computer simulations? 348 00:12:59,524 --> 00:13:00,164 Is that, 349 00:13:01,524 --> 00:13:03,365 is that does that take up a a 350 00:13:03,365 --> 00:13:05,845 lot of your time, or do you spend 351 00:13:05,845 --> 00:13:07,304 a lot of time in the lab 352 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:09,019 testing these, 353 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:10,860 whole ROMs, 354 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,759 in actual laser conditions, or is it a 355 00:13:14,759 --> 00:13:15,659 bit of both? 356 00:13:16,919 --> 00:13:19,159 Yeah. Remember, the whole ROM part was for 357 00:13:19,159 --> 00:13:20,759 NIF, so we don't use a whole ROM 358 00:13:20,759 --> 00:13:22,620 at all. Oh, okay. Right. But, 359 00:13:23,154 --> 00:13:25,095 but you're correct. Computer simulations 360 00:13:25,475 --> 00:13:29,315 play a large role in us developing these 361 00:13:29,315 --> 00:13:29,815 designs. 362 00:13:30,595 --> 00:13:32,595 Although one of the lessons that that I 363 00:13:32,595 --> 00:13:34,375 learned from NIF was that 364 00:13:35,075 --> 00:13:38,115 although the simulation codes are state of the 365 00:13:38,115 --> 00:13:38,580 art, 366 00:13:38,980 --> 00:13:39,480 very, 367 00:13:40,259 --> 00:13:43,139 well developed, many decades of work have gone 368 00:13:43,139 --> 00:13:43,879 into them. 369 00:13:45,779 --> 00:13:47,240 Doing an ICF implosion, 370 00:13:48,420 --> 00:13:51,000 requires us to to know these answers 371 00:13:51,379 --> 00:13:52,759 to a very high precision, 372 00:13:53,304 --> 00:13:55,225 And the codes are just not quite good 373 00:13:55,225 --> 00:13:58,285 enough, so we really do need experimental data. 374 00:13:59,065 --> 00:14:00,764 And that plays a huge role, 375 00:14:01,865 --> 00:14:03,325 in in optimizing 376 00:14:03,705 --> 00:14:05,945 what this design looked like. And that's actually 377 00:14:05,945 --> 00:14:08,110 what happened on NIF. We realized that we 378 00:14:08,110 --> 00:14:10,850 needed to really use that data as well, 379 00:14:11,629 --> 00:14:13,709 in order to get to Ignition, and I 380 00:14:13,709 --> 00:14:15,409 expect the same will be true. 381 00:14:15,950 --> 00:14:18,429 I think the third leg that's coming up 382 00:14:18,429 --> 00:14:18,929 is, 383 00:14:19,309 --> 00:14:21,875 you know, AI machine learning at 384 00:14:22,335 --> 00:14:25,075 Livermore that, you know, there's a a project 385 00:14:25,294 --> 00:14:27,534 working on that that contributed to getting to 386 00:14:27,534 --> 00:14:28,034 Ignition. 387 00:14:28,894 --> 00:14:30,595 I only see that getting bigger. 388 00:14:31,774 --> 00:14:33,615 And as we are able to do higher 389 00:14:33,615 --> 00:14:34,674 repetition rate 390 00:14:36,750 --> 00:14:38,769 experiments, we'll get more data. 391 00:14:39,309 --> 00:14:41,549 And I think that that will even play 392 00:14:41,549 --> 00:14:43,389 a bigger role. One of the limiting factors 393 00:14:43,389 --> 00:14:45,149 on NIF is if you only can do 394 00:14:45,149 --> 00:14:46,910 a few shots, you don't have a lot 395 00:14:46,910 --> 00:14:49,605 of data to train on. But as we're 396 00:14:49,605 --> 00:14:52,105 able to develop these high repetition rate facilities, 397 00:14:52,644 --> 00:14:55,205 we'll be getting loads of data, and that 398 00:14:55,205 --> 00:14:57,465 will, I think, open up a brand new, 399 00:14:59,524 --> 00:15:02,884 doors for machine learning and artificial intelligence to 400 00:15:02,884 --> 00:15:05,230 help us figure out how to optimize the 401 00:15:05,230 --> 00:15:05,730 design. 402 00:15:06,750 --> 00:15:08,669 And, I mean, in terms of, you know, 403 00:15:08,669 --> 00:15:09,250 the company's 404 00:15:09,629 --> 00:15:10,129 key 405 00:15:10,589 --> 00:15:13,490 intellectual property, then it is 406 00:15:14,029 --> 00:15:15,889 the design of the target 407 00:15:16,269 --> 00:15:16,769 and 408 00:15:17,225 --> 00:15:17,884 the design 409 00:15:18,745 --> 00:15:19,884 of how the lasers 410 00:15:20,585 --> 00:15:22,365 strike the target, or, 411 00:15:23,144 --> 00:15:24,904 are are are those the two sort of 412 00:15:24,904 --> 00:15:27,945 important things? The design of the target being 413 00:15:27,945 --> 00:15:28,605 the pearl, 414 00:15:29,465 --> 00:15:32,024 and the design of how the target is 415 00:15:32,024 --> 00:15:33,720 struck being the lighthouse 416 00:15:34,420 --> 00:15:35,240 side of things. 417 00:15:35,860 --> 00:15:37,139 Yeah. There's also, 418 00:15:37,540 --> 00:15:40,100 intellectual property in the design of the lasers 419 00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:42,259 because, remember, these are not the same lasers 420 00:15:42,259 --> 00:15:43,160 that we used 421 00:15:43,620 --> 00:15:44,279 on NIF. 422 00:15:45,704 --> 00:15:48,264 Also, how we fabricate the targets, I think 423 00:15:48,264 --> 00:15:50,184 there'll be a lot of IP there. I 424 00:15:50,184 --> 00:15:52,985 mean, it's actually pretty complicated to figure out 425 00:15:52,985 --> 00:15:53,804 how to build, 426 00:15:54,184 --> 00:15:55,644 you know, 900,000 427 00:15:55,704 --> 00:15:57,625 targets a day. That's just a, like, a 428 00:15:57,625 --> 00:15:58,764 daunting number, 429 00:15:59,690 --> 00:16:02,170 and have them come in at at a 430 00:16:02,170 --> 00:16:02,670 price. 431 00:16:03,129 --> 00:16:04,970 You know, the price of the target is 432 00:16:04,970 --> 00:16:06,029 important component. 433 00:16:06,649 --> 00:16:08,330 And so have those come in at a 434 00:16:08,330 --> 00:16:10,730 price that is will make the cost of 435 00:16:10,730 --> 00:16:11,950 electricity competitive. 436 00:16:12,674 --> 00:16:14,434 So those are kind of the areas that 437 00:16:14,434 --> 00:16:15,955 I think we'll where we'll see a lot 438 00:16:15,955 --> 00:16:16,695 of IP, 439 00:16:17,955 --> 00:16:19,575 coming out of this kind of a project. 440 00:16:19,875 --> 00:16:21,554 And then the the act of putting it 441 00:16:21,554 --> 00:16:23,715 all together, I think, is also important, how 442 00:16:23,715 --> 00:16:25,495 we integrate those things together, 443 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,379 in order to make a successful plant. 444 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,320 And you you mentioned cost. The so so 445 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,580 you're using deuterium and tritium 446 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:37,580 as as opposed to, 447 00:16:38,279 --> 00:16:38,779 hydrogen. 448 00:16:40,264 --> 00:16:41,964 Are are those are those materials, 449 00:16:43,144 --> 00:16:44,605 you know, are they very expensive, 450 00:16:44,985 --> 00:16:46,365 or are they difficult 451 00:16:46,985 --> 00:16:48,904 to work with? I mean, I suppose tritium 452 00:16:48,904 --> 00:16:50,204 is is a radioactive 453 00:16:50,584 --> 00:16:53,485 material, so that's that makes it difficult 454 00:16:53,944 --> 00:16:55,004 to deal with. 455 00:16:55,850 --> 00:16:56,169 It it 456 00:16:56,970 --> 00:16:59,389 are are those, challenges for the company? 457 00:17:00,649 --> 00:17:01,549 Yes. Absolutely. 458 00:17:02,730 --> 00:17:04,890 We choose deuterium and tritium because they are 459 00:17:04,890 --> 00:17:06,910 the easiest elements to fuse. 460 00:17:08,125 --> 00:17:08,865 And so 461 00:17:09,964 --> 00:17:14,125 advanced fuels have have some advantages, but it's 462 00:17:14,125 --> 00:17:16,065 just much, much, much harder. 463 00:17:16,444 --> 00:17:18,365 And so let's start with the thing that's 464 00:17:18,365 --> 00:17:20,545 the easiest. It's also the thing we demonstrated 465 00:17:20,684 --> 00:17:23,460 at NIF. NIF also used deuterium tritium fuel, 466 00:17:23,460 --> 00:17:26,179 so we know it works because we've we've 467 00:17:26,179 --> 00:17:27,400 demonstrated that. 468 00:17:28,259 --> 00:17:30,339 The way we get the fuel, deuterium is 469 00:17:30,339 --> 00:17:31,720 actually can be found 470 00:17:32,259 --> 00:17:32,759 naturally. 471 00:17:33,299 --> 00:17:35,779 In seawater, you can you can get deuterium 472 00:17:35,779 --> 00:17:37,944 from there. The tritium, as you say, is 473 00:17:37,944 --> 00:17:40,904 the more complicated one. Tritium, we breed in 474 00:17:40,904 --> 00:17:41,565 the reactor, 475 00:17:42,585 --> 00:17:46,345 from lithium. So our reactor designs have lithium 476 00:17:46,345 --> 00:17:49,325 in them, and the neutrons from the, 477 00:17:49,625 --> 00:17:52,044 fusion reactions actually breed the tritium. 478 00:17:53,660 --> 00:17:55,900 Getting enough tritium, making sure that we have 479 00:17:55,900 --> 00:17:56,720 enough tritium, 480 00:17:57,099 --> 00:17:59,759 and figuring out how to extract that tritium, 481 00:18:00,940 --> 00:18:01,440 and, 482 00:18:02,140 --> 00:18:04,960 then, of course, use it for future shots 483 00:18:05,019 --> 00:18:07,200 is a big area. We, in fact, just 484 00:18:07,775 --> 00:18:08,994 started a collaboration 485 00:18:09,454 --> 00:18:09,934 that, 486 00:18:10,494 --> 00:18:13,615 was funded by Department of Energy for us 487 00:18:13,615 --> 00:18:16,115 to work with Savannah River National Lab. 488 00:18:17,214 --> 00:18:19,875 And they have a lot of expertise in 489 00:18:20,095 --> 00:18:24,630 designing these tritium this tritium extraction systems, tritium 490 00:18:24,630 --> 00:18:25,450 fuel systems. 491 00:18:25,910 --> 00:18:27,590 And so we look forward to working with 492 00:18:27,590 --> 00:18:28,090 them, 493 00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:30,250 on that project. 494 00:18:31,190 --> 00:18:32,890 I see. So so so 495 00:18:33,515 --> 00:18:35,615 when the technology is up and running, 496 00:18:36,634 --> 00:18:37,615 it will be 497 00:18:37,995 --> 00:18:39,755 I mean, will will it produce enough of 498 00:18:39,755 --> 00:18:40,575 its own 499 00:18:40,955 --> 00:18:41,455 tritium? 500 00:18:41,995 --> 00:18:44,315 Will would it be sort of self funding 501 00:18:44,315 --> 00:18:46,200 when it comes to tritium? Is that the 502 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:47,179 plan? Exactly. 503 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,720 Exactly. I mean, that's a requirement. I mean, 504 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:51,099 we have to be able to 505 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:52,539 breed enough tritium, 506 00:18:53,319 --> 00:18:54,779 to keep the plant going. 507 00:18:56,839 --> 00:18:58,619 And so that is part of the design. 508 00:19:00,014 --> 00:19:02,754 Okay. And I just wanted to ask you 509 00:19:02,894 --> 00:19:03,794 finally about 510 00:19:04,174 --> 00:19:04,674 the 511 00:19:05,375 --> 00:19:06,974 the you know, how how to get the 512 00:19:06,974 --> 00:19:08,914 heat out. I mean, you mentioned the neutrons, 513 00:19:10,974 --> 00:19:12,674 interacting and and producing 514 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,059 tritium. But those, if I'm if I'm not 515 00:19:16,279 --> 00:19:18,619 mistaken, those are the interactions that 516 00:19:19,159 --> 00:19:21,799 ultimately would produce the heat that you would 517 00:19:21,799 --> 00:19:22,700 like to capture, 518 00:19:23,399 --> 00:19:26,140 and then maybe use that to generate electricity. 519 00:19:26,279 --> 00:19:26,940 If you, 520 00:19:28,825 --> 00:19:30,345 is a a a sort of a heat 521 00:19:30,345 --> 00:19:33,944 exchange mechanism part of your design, or are 522 00:19:33,944 --> 00:19:35,164 you solely focusing 523 00:19:35,625 --> 00:19:37,565 on getting the, fusion 524 00:19:38,025 --> 00:19:39,964 reaction right at the moment? 525 00:19:41,220 --> 00:19:43,140 No. We're also working that's part of the 526 00:19:43,140 --> 00:19:45,880 reactor design is that, you know, those neutrons 527 00:19:45,940 --> 00:19:48,359 are stopped in something we call the blanket, 528 00:19:48,500 --> 00:19:49,000 which 529 00:19:49,700 --> 00:19:52,500 breeds the tritium, but it also captures that 530 00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:53,000 heat. 531 00:19:53,904 --> 00:19:54,565 And then 532 00:19:55,184 --> 00:19:57,025 at the end of the day, we go 533 00:19:57,025 --> 00:19:58,085 to a traditional 534 00:19:59,744 --> 00:20:02,785 system to produce electricity. Essentially, you boil water 535 00:20:02,785 --> 00:20:03,265 and, 536 00:20:04,945 --> 00:20:07,205 and produce electricity in sort of the conventional 537 00:20:07,265 --> 00:20:08,950 way. It's it's a little funny. You've got 538 00:20:08,950 --> 00:20:10,009 this very high-tech 539 00:20:10,470 --> 00:20:13,109 way of of producing heat, but at the 540 00:20:13,109 --> 00:20:14,009 end of the day, 541 00:20:15,190 --> 00:20:17,589 we go back to conventional methods for producing 542 00:20:17,589 --> 00:20:18,089 electricity. 543 00:20:18,869 --> 00:20:20,890 Yeah. It's I I it's well, 544 00:20:21,205 --> 00:20:22,505 it's just just 545 00:20:23,125 --> 00:20:24,904 a very fancy water heater. 546 00:20:25,445 --> 00:20:28,164 I'm obviously not doing it justice by saying 547 00:20:28,164 --> 00:20:28,664 just. 548 00:20:29,125 --> 00:20:31,125 No. But, you know, as you say, that's 549 00:20:31,125 --> 00:20:32,484 right. At the end of the day, that's 550 00:20:32,484 --> 00:20:33,059 what it does. 551 00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:34,600 And 552 00:20:34,980 --> 00:20:37,860 is it possible to, to to say what 553 00:20:37,860 --> 00:20:41,080 what the timeline is on on this development? 554 00:20:42,740 --> 00:20:46,120 Yeah. So our plan is to have a 555 00:20:46,340 --> 00:20:48,920 a a pilot plant up, 556 00:20:49,565 --> 00:20:50,065 in 557 00:20:50,605 --> 00:20:52,285 by the end of the next decade, by 558 00:20:52,285 --> 00:20:53,345 the end of the thirties. 559 00:20:54,924 --> 00:20:57,884 It's a fairly aggressive timeline given the things 560 00:20:57,884 --> 00:20:59,105 that we have to do, 561 00:20:59,805 --> 00:21:01,404 but, you know, that's part of being a 562 00:21:01,404 --> 00:21:02,845 start up, I think. We have to take 563 00:21:02,845 --> 00:21:04,865 some risks and try to move quickly 564 00:21:06,099 --> 00:21:07,799 and try to achieve our goal. 565 00:21:08,419 --> 00:21:10,279 I see. And that that would be 566 00:21:11,059 --> 00:21:13,140 on your premises, or would it be in 567 00:21:13,140 --> 00:21:14,440 collaboration with 568 00:21:14,900 --> 00:21:17,640 a a national lab like Lawrence Livermore? 569 00:21:18,295 --> 00:21:19,974 Or is it a pure would it be 570 00:21:19,974 --> 00:21:21,914 a purely private endeavor? 571 00:21:22,695 --> 00:21:24,474 I I think that's a bit TBD. 572 00:21:26,934 --> 00:21:29,015 Where we will cite it and, you know, 573 00:21:29,015 --> 00:21:30,474 what the partners will be. 574 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,080 I mean, obviously, we have partners helping us 575 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:35,580 build 576 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,080 and build the system. We have partners with 577 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,720 laser companies, as I mentioned I just mentioned 578 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,440 Savannah River. We have other partners. One of 579 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,404 one of our kind of, in my view, 580 00:21:46,404 --> 00:21:49,045 superpowers of our company is because we have 581 00:21:49,045 --> 00:21:51,605 one foot in in Europe and one foot 582 00:21:51,605 --> 00:21:52,744 in The United States. 583 00:21:53,045 --> 00:21:55,205 We actually have brought together a team from 584 00:21:55,205 --> 00:21:55,705 across 585 00:21:56,244 --> 00:21:57,865 it's not just Germany, but 586 00:21:58,164 --> 00:21:59,849 also other places in Europe, 587 00:22:00,410 --> 00:22:02,569 as well as The US. And so we 588 00:22:02,569 --> 00:22:03,549 have a lot of 589 00:22:03,849 --> 00:22:04,349 opportunities, 590 00:22:05,609 --> 00:22:06,829 between those two continents, 591 00:22:08,009 --> 00:22:08,669 to partner 592 00:22:10,169 --> 00:22:11,230 with other companies, 593 00:22:12,009 --> 00:22:12,829 to governments, 594 00:22:14,724 --> 00:22:15,224 etcetera. 595 00:22:15,845 --> 00:22:16,585 And so 596 00:22:17,924 --> 00:22:19,545 I think that makes us strong 597 00:22:20,404 --> 00:22:23,125 because we have some of the best talent 598 00:22:23,125 --> 00:22:24,025 from around, 599 00:22:24,964 --> 00:22:25,944 around the world. 600 00:22:26,970 --> 00:22:28,970 And, Debbie, I wanted to ask you, 601 00:22:29,769 --> 00:22:31,929 I I suppose this is a a almost 602 00:22:31,929 --> 00:22:32,750 a a career 603 00:22:33,210 --> 00:22:34,569 question rather than, 604 00:22:36,170 --> 00:22:38,349 about the company and and fusion technology. 605 00:22:40,894 --> 00:22:43,295 The the fusion industry, I suppose, is having 606 00:22:43,295 --> 00:22:44,974 a bit of a renaissance at the moment, 607 00:22:44,974 --> 00:22:47,214 isn't there? Isn't it? There's lots of smaller 608 00:22:47,214 --> 00:22:47,714 companies 609 00:22:48,174 --> 00:22:50,654 that have come in and, and you've got, 610 00:22:50,654 --> 00:22:53,555 you know, big big players like, ITER 611 00:22:54,079 --> 00:22:55,220 in in France. 612 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:58,960 Just curious from from your point of view, 613 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,019 you you you had a a career in, 614 00:23:03,279 --> 00:23:05,779 I suppose, academic research, although 615 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,259 you're at Lawrence Livermore rather than 616 00:23:08,565 --> 00:23:09,944 at a at a university. 617 00:23:11,605 --> 00:23:12,904 How does your role, 618 00:23:13,684 --> 00:23:14,984 at Focused Energy 619 00:23:15,524 --> 00:23:17,544 today compare with, 620 00:23:18,325 --> 00:23:20,184 what you were doing as a researcher, 621 00:23:21,329 --> 00:23:23,829 at the National Ignition Facility. 622 00:23:24,369 --> 00:23:26,769 Is it, it it is it sort of 623 00:23:26,769 --> 00:23:28,789 similar, or is it very different? 624 00:23:29,490 --> 00:23:31,190 What's it like? You know, 625 00:23:31,490 --> 00:23:33,670 compare a day at Focused Energy, 626 00:23:34,325 --> 00:23:36,424 to a day at Lawrence Livermore. 627 00:23:38,644 --> 00:23:39,945 There's a lot of similarities. 628 00:23:40,964 --> 00:23:42,664 Working at at NIF, 629 00:23:43,684 --> 00:23:45,445 there was a lot of pressure. We were 630 00:23:45,445 --> 00:23:47,460 trying to move very quickly, so that's kind 631 00:23:47,460 --> 00:23:49,779 of similar to working in a startup or 632 00:23:49,779 --> 00:23:50,919 at Focused Energy. 633 00:23:51,859 --> 00:23:52,519 You know, 634 00:23:53,380 --> 00:23:56,099 my role is to bring what I learned 635 00:23:56,099 --> 00:23:58,740 from NIF and the skills that I have 636 00:23:58,740 --> 00:24:01,964 to our problem at Focused Energy. And so, 637 00:24:01,964 --> 00:24:03,724 you know, that is that is kind of 638 00:24:03,724 --> 00:24:06,625 a natural transition from what I did before 639 00:24:06,684 --> 00:24:08,304 to what I'm doing now. 640 00:24:09,244 --> 00:24:11,664 I think the one of the big differences 641 00:24:11,804 --> 00:24:13,505 for me is a level of bureaucracy. 642 00:24:14,850 --> 00:24:16,309 You know, working for a government 643 00:24:17,089 --> 00:24:19,730 funded lab, there was lots of rules and 644 00:24:19,730 --> 00:24:21,750 lots of paperwork, and, 645 00:24:22,049 --> 00:24:24,690 you know, that that takes up your time 646 00:24:24,690 --> 00:24:27,009 for things that you might not always see 647 00:24:27,009 --> 00:24:27,990 the value in. 648 00:24:28,715 --> 00:24:30,715 And working now for a small startup, we're 649 00:24:30,715 --> 00:24:32,715 able to just move more quickly. We're able 650 00:24:32,715 --> 00:24:34,555 to you know, we just don't have a 651 00:24:34,555 --> 00:24:36,315 lot of those kind of constraints. I mean, 652 00:24:36,315 --> 00:24:38,555 obviously, there are still some constraints, but we, 653 00:24:38,555 --> 00:24:40,795 you know, we're able to make progress more 654 00:24:40,795 --> 00:24:43,819 quickly, in that way. Personally, I find 655 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:45,419 that great because 656 00:24:45,799 --> 00:24:47,339 it's just it just makes 657 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,480 more time for the things that are fun, 658 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,559 which is trying to get fusion on the 659 00:24:51,559 --> 00:24:52,059 grid. 660 00:24:54,519 --> 00:24:57,845 And and finally, Debbie, what, what advice would 661 00:24:57,845 --> 00:24:58,804 you give to, 662 00:24:59,284 --> 00:25:00,984 an early career physicist? 663 00:25:01,444 --> 00:25:03,125 I mean, maybe this is somebody who's just 664 00:25:03,125 --> 00:25:03,625 finished 665 00:25:04,005 --> 00:25:06,565 a bachelor's degree, or maybe they've just done 666 00:25:06,565 --> 00:25:07,224 a PhD, 667 00:25:07,845 --> 00:25:10,264 and they're really keen on joining 668 00:25:10,799 --> 00:25:12,100 the fusion industry. 669 00:25:12,559 --> 00:25:14,580 What what would your tips be, 670 00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:16,880 you know, to get a career like that 671 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:17,380 going? 672 00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:20,340 Yeah. I think there's 673 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,420 very, very many opportunities 674 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:23,414 right now. 675 00:25:23,975 --> 00:25:26,215 You know, when I started, it was mainly 676 00:25:26,215 --> 00:25:27,115 just universities 677 00:25:27,414 --> 00:25:29,335 or national labs. Those were kind of our 678 00:25:29,335 --> 00:25:29,835 choices. 679 00:25:30,295 --> 00:25:32,215 But now with these companies, there's there's a 680 00:25:32,215 --> 00:25:34,055 lot of companies that have sprung up. Now 681 00:25:34,055 --> 00:25:36,315 probably all of those companies will not survive, 682 00:25:36,775 --> 00:25:38,795 just because there's only so much money. 683 00:25:39,809 --> 00:25:42,130 But there's lots of opportunities, and, yeah, I 684 00:25:42,130 --> 00:25:43,250 would say go for it. 685 00:25:43,970 --> 00:25:45,509 I was speaking with someone, 686 00:25:47,169 --> 00:25:48,789 a few weeks ago from, 687 00:25:49,650 --> 00:25:51,809 one of the universities in Texas who's a 688 00:25:51,809 --> 00:25:53,750 beginning graduate student. And, 689 00:25:54,494 --> 00:25:56,494 you know, you're joining this field where there's 690 00:25:56,494 --> 00:25:58,434 just lots of opportunity. It's 691 00:25:59,295 --> 00:26:01,795 new stuff every day. There's new problems. 692 00:26:02,174 --> 00:26:04,575 So if you like problem solving, it's great. 693 00:26:04,575 --> 00:26:06,414 You know? If you wanna do something good 694 00:26:06,414 --> 00:26:08,500 for the world, you know, hopefully, that's what 695 00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:10,039 we will do. That's our goal. 696 00:26:11,380 --> 00:26:11,880 And, 697 00:26:13,460 --> 00:26:15,720 I would say there's also gonna be opportunities 698 00:26:15,940 --> 00:26:18,339 for people other than people like me, other 699 00:26:18,339 --> 00:26:21,160 than, you know, PhD plasma physicists 700 00:26:21,539 --> 00:26:22,039 because 701 00:26:22,465 --> 00:26:24,705 we're also gonna need, you know, people who 702 00:26:24,705 --> 00:26:25,684 know about lasers. 703 00:26:25,985 --> 00:26:28,725 We're gonna need technicians. We're gonna need operators. 704 00:26:29,505 --> 00:26:31,765 You know, there's gonna be just a tremendous 705 00:26:31,985 --> 00:26:33,365 growth in this field. 706 00:26:34,065 --> 00:26:35,849 And, you know, so, you know, that's great 707 00:26:35,849 --> 00:26:37,710 because there's just gonna be lots of opportunities 708 00:26:37,769 --> 00:26:39,390 for young people to join us, 709 00:26:39,849 --> 00:26:41,470 in this quest for fusion. 710 00:26:42,089 --> 00:26:43,690 And I I wanted to ask you about 711 00:26:43,690 --> 00:26:44,190 that, 712 00:26:44,650 --> 00:26:47,390 you know, specifically at Focused Energy. 713 00:26:48,154 --> 00:26:50,634 You know, if if somebody was lucky enough 714 00:26:50,634 --> 00:26:51,934 to to get a job 715 00:26:52,394 --> 00:26:55,034 at Focused Energy, who who would they be 716 00:26:55,034 --> 00:26:55,534 working 717 00:26:55,994 --> 00:26:58,174 alongside? I mean, there would be some plasma 718 00:26:58,234 --> 00:27:01,294 physicists, but would there also be, engineers, 719 00:27:01,755 --> 00:27:02,255 maybe 720 00:27:03,369 --> 00:27:05,869 a mathematician or a computer scientist 721 00:27:06,890 --> 00:27:07,470 who specializes 722 00:27:07,849 --> 00:27:10,490 in in doing simulations? What what what sort 723 00:27:10,490 --> 00:27:11,150 of colleagues 724 00:27:11,849 --> 00:27:14,169 could would somebody expect to have at the 725 00:27:14,169 --> 00:27:14,669 company? 726 00:27:15,464 --> 00:27:17,065 Yeah. We have all the people that you 727 00:27:17,065 --> 00:27:18,744 just talked about. We have people who work 728 00:27:18,744 --> 00:27:20,825 in lasers. We have people who work on 729 00:27:20,825 --> 00:27:22,045 the reactor design. 730 00:27:22,904 --> 00:27:24,825 We have people who work on target physics 731 00:27:24,825 --> 00:27:25,565 like me. 732 00:27:26,025 --> 00:27:26,924 We have a large 733 00:27:28,019 --> 00:27:29,539 group of people, quite, 734 00:27:29,940 --> 00:27:32,660 advanced lab that's working on building the targets, 735 00:27:32,660 --> 00:27:34,740 which in itself is, you know, as I 736 00:27:34,740 --> 00:27:36,680 mentioned before, I think is quite a challenge. 737 00:27:38,980 --> 00:27:39,480 Engineering, 738 00:27:39,860 --> 00:27:42,100 of course, we need engineering to put all 739 00:27:42,100 --> 00:27:42,759 this together. 740 00:27:43,644 --> 00:27:45,664 So there's there's a lot of opportunities 741 00:27:46,204 --> 00:27:47,484 for people who are in a lot of 742 00:27:47,484 --> 00:27:48,305 different fields. 743 00:27:49,805 --> 00:27:51,345 You also mentioned, I think, 744 00:27:51,724 --> 00:27:53,724 you know, as I said before, I think 745 00:27:53,724 --> 00:27:55,664 AI and machine learning, we're 746 00:27:55,970 --> 00:27:58,690 working on putting together a digital twin that 747 00:27:58,690 --> 00:28:01,490 will, you know, try to model the whole 748 00:28:01,490 --> 00:28:01,990 system 749 00:28:02,450 --> 00:28:02,950 in 750 00:28:03,730 --> 00:28:05,190 in in one model. 751 00:28:06,210 --> 00:28:08,690 And that's also an opportunity for people with 752 00:28:08,690 --> 00:28:10,710 with those with that kind of background. 753 00:28:11,275 --> 00:28:13,755 So there's lots of lots of opportunities out 754 00:28:13,755 --> 00:28:14,255 there. 755 00:28:14,795 --> 00:28:16,174 And and what about, 756 00:28:17,595 --> 00:28:18,195 I suppose, 757 00:28:18,634 --> 00:28:20,494 you know, still participating 758 00:28:20,954 --> 00:28:23,369 in in academic research, do you 759 00:28:24,009 --> 00:28:24,990 do you collaborate 760 00:28:25,289 --> 00:28:25,769 with, 761 00:28:26,890 --> 00:28:29,049 researchers at, you know, for example, at a 762 00:28:29,049 --> 00:28:31,630 place like, Lawrence Livermore or maybe 763 00:28:32,569 --> 00:28:34,990 universities? And, you know, does your name appear 764 00:28:35,529 --> 00:28:36,029 occasionally, 765 00:28:36,809 --> 00:28:38,109 in an author list 766 00:28:38,654 --> 00:28:41,134 on a paper about fusion? You know, are 767 00:28:41,134 --> 00:28:42,815 are you sort of still out there, let's 768 00:28:42,815 --> 00:28:45,855 say, doing some academic research, or is it 769 00:28:45,855 --> 00:28:46,355 mostly 770 00:28:47,055 --> 00:28:49,475 very focused on on commercial, 771 00:28:50,815 --> 00:28:52,994 issues at Focused Energy? 772 00:28:54,460 --> 00:28:56,220 No. We are still out there. In fact, 773 00:28:56,220 --> 00:28:58,299 in a couple months, I think we have 774 00:28:58,299 --> 00:28:59,279 four presentations 775 00:28:59,819 --> 00:29:01,679 at the American Physical Society 776 00:29:02,059 --> 00:29:03,919 division of plasma physics meeting. 777 00:29:04,220 --> 00:29:05,500 I mean, one of the things that, you 778 00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:07,740 know, again, I feel fairly strongly about is 779 00:29:07,740 --> 00:29:09,585 that peer review is important. 780 00:29:10,525 --> 00:29:12,605 We're trying to do something that no one's 781 00:29:12,605 --> 00:29:14,704 done before. And so having, 782 00:29:15,404 --> 00:29:16,704 you know, our colleagues 783 00:29:17,005 --> 00:29:19,085 be able to give us feedback on what 784 00:29:19,085 --> 00:29:21,404 we're doing or point out mistakes that we're 785 00:29:21,404 --> 00:29:23,609 making or things that we're forgetting about 786 00:29:24,490 --> 00:29:25,009 or just, 787 00:29:25,450 --> 00:29:28,269 and then also collaborating. And we have collaborators 788 00:29:28,569 --> 00:29:30,429 both in Europe and in The US, 789 00:29:30,809 --> 00:29:31,309 with 790 00:29:31,690 --> 00:29:32,190 universities 791 00:29:32,650 --> 00:29:34,509 or other net or national labs. 792 00:29:35,690 --> 00:29:37,450 And, you know, those things, I think, are 793 00:29:37,450 --> 00:29:39,695 important to try to to get where we 794 00:29:39,695 --> 00:29:41,855 wanna go. So, yeah, we are still out 795 00:29:41,855 --> 00:29:44,894 there. You know, publishing isn't our, of course, 796 00:29:44,894 --> 00:29:46,115 our number one priority. 797 00:29:46,735 --> 00:29:48,975 But, again, I feel like peer review is 798 00:29:48,975 --> 00:29:51,055 is quite important, and so we are doing 799 00:29:51,055 --> 00:29:51,509 that. 800 00:29:52,070 --> 00:29:52,970 So you still 801 00:29:53,269 --> 00:29:55,750 you still must feel a part of the 802 00:29:55,750 --> 00:29:57,450 fusion community then, 803 00:29:57,829 --> 00:29:58,730 from an academic, 804 00:29:59,349 --> 00:30:00,650 in an academic sense. 805 00:30:01,509 --> 00:30:02,009 Absolutely. 806 00:30:02,630 --> 00:30:03,130 Absolutely. 807 00:30:04,355 --> 00:30:06,434 And that's also good for recruiting because, of 808 00:30:06,434 --> 00:30:08,275 course, when we go to these meetings, we 809 00:30:08,275 --> 00:30:10,055 also we're giving presentations. 810 00:30:10,434 --> 00:30:12,994 Students are hearing our presentations, and we're meeting 811 00:30:12,994 --> 00:30:15,575 those students, and those might be future employees 812 00:30:15,714 --> 00:30:16,535 of our company. 813 00:30:18,970 --> 00:30:19,470 Great. 814 00:30:19,849 --> 00:30:21,849 Well, thanks so much, Debbie. Thanks for coming 815 00:30:21,849 --> 00:30:24,490 on the podcast and, and talking about your 816 00:30:24,490 --> 00:30:27,609 work at Focused Energy. It sounds really, really 817 00:30:27,609 --> 00:30:29,369 fascinating. And, you know, as you said, it 818 00:30:29,369 --> 00:30:30,109 seems like 819 00:30:31,674 --> 00:30:33,194 a a bit of a moment for for 820 00:30:33,194 --> 00:30:36,315 the fusion industry. And, hopefully, hopefully, somebody will 821 00:30:36,315 --> 00:30:38,875 crack it. Hopefully, it'll be it'll be you 822 00:30:38,875 --> 00:30:39,774 and your colleagues. 823 00:30:41,034 --> 00:30:42,894 So thank you. And, yeah, 824 00:30:43,549 --> 00:30:46,289 I hope that that your research and development 825 00:30:46,429 --> 00:30:47,169 goes well. 826 00:30:48,109 --> 00:30:49,789 Thank you so much for having me on. 827 00:30:49,789 --> 00:30:52,109 I I've enjoyed this. It's been fun. And 828 00:30:52,109 --> 00:30:53,650 and, so thank you. 829 00:31:01,914 --> 00:31:03,835 I'm afraid that's all the time we have 830 00:31:03,835 --> 00:31:06,974 for this week's podcast. Thanks to Debbie Callahan 831 00:31:07,275 --> 00:31:08,575 of Focused Energy 832 00:31:08,875 --> 00:31:11,835 for joining me today, and a special thanks 833 00:31:11,835 --> 00:31:13,694 to our producer, Fred Isles. 834 00:31:14,460 --> 00:31:16,940 We'll be back again next week. And if 835 00:31:16,940 --> 00:31:18,960 you have an interest in radiotherapy, 836 00:31:19,819 --> 00:31:23,279 don't forget to register for our upcoming webinar, 837 00:31:23,819 --> 00:31:24,319 unlocking 838 00:31:24,859 --> 00:31:25,919 novel radiation 839 00:31:26,220 --> 00:31:28,159 beams for cancer treatment 840 00:31:28,545 --> 00:31:30,485 with upright patient positioning. 841 00:31:31,265 --> 00:31:32,485 It will be presented 842 00:31:32,865 --> 00:31:34,565 on the February 17 843 00:31:35,105 --> 00:31:36,244 at 4PM 844 00:31:36,625 --> 00:31:37,125 GMT. 845 00:31:38,065 --> 00:31:39,765 That's 11AM 846 00:31:40,225 --> 00:31:41,924 Eastern Standard Time. 847 00:31:42,430 --> 00:31:45,309 You can register for this free event on 848 00:31:45,309 --> 00:31:47,009 the Physics World website.