1 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,199 Hello, and welcome to this episode of the 2 00:00:11,199 --> 00:00:12,980 Physics World Weekly Podcast, 3 00:00:13,434 --> 00:00:16,974 which is sponsored by the National Physical Laboratory. 4 00:00:17,675 --> 00:00:19,134 I'm Hamish Johnston. 5 00:00:19,914 --> 00:00:21,774 The National Physical Laboratory 6 00:00:22,474 --> 00:00:23,214 or NPL 7 00:00:23,914 --> 00:00:24,814 is The UK's 8 00:00:25,274 --> 00:00:26,335 National Metrology 9 00:00:26,794 --> 00:00:27,294 Institute. 10 00:00:28,239 --> 00:00:31,059 It provides cutting edge measurement science, 11 00:00:31,519 --> 00:00:33,219 engineering, and technology 12 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,280 to underpin prosperity and quality of life in 13 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:37,939 The UK. 14 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,579 NPL bridges the gap between research and industry 15 00:00:43,234 --> 00:00:45,335 by providing the measurement science, 16 00:00:45,635 --> 00:00:46,135 facilities, 17 00:00:46,674 --> 00:00:47,575 and expertise 18 00:00:48,195 --> 00:00:50,295 needed to accelerate innovation 19 00:00:50,914 --> 00:00:52,695 from lab to market 20 00:00:53,075 --> 00:00:54,615 across various sectors. 21 00:00:55,554 --> 00:00:57,655 One of those sectors is quantum, 22 00:00:58,179 --> 00:01:00,679 which we're going to dive into today. 23 00:01:01,460 --> 00:01:04,520 I'm joined by Tim Pryor, who is quantum 24 00:01:04,819 --> 00:01:07,000 program manager at NPL, 25 00:01:07,459 --> 00:01:08,840 and by John Devaney, 26 00:01:09,219 --> 00:01:10,359 who is NPL's 27 00:01:10,900 --> 00:01:12,840 quantum standards manager. 28 00:01:13,534 --> 00:01:14,755 Hi, Tim and John. 29 00:01:15,135 --> 00:01:16,355 Welcome to the podcast. 30 00:01:17,055 --> 00:01:19,775 Hi there. Great to be here. Hi. Pleased 31 00:01:19,775 --> 00:01:20,594 to meet you again. 32 00:01:21,135 --> 00:01:21,875 So, Tim, 33 00:01:22,174 --> 00:01:26,515 in October, NPL became a founding member of 34 00:01:26,575 --> 00:01:27,075 NMIQ, 35 00:01:28,340 --> 00:01:31,560 which is a global initiative to standardize metrology 36 00:01:32,180 --> 00:01:32,680 standards 37 00:01:33,219 --> 00:01:34,520 for quantum technologies. 38 00:01:34,900 --> 00:01:36,120 What is NMIQ, 39 00:01:36,819 --> 00:01:39,799 and why does NPL see it as crucial 40 00:01:40,180 --> 00:01:42,359 to the success of the quantum industry? 41 00:01:43,924 --> 00:01:44,825 So NMIQ 42 00:01:45,125 --> 00:01:46,905 is a, an initiative, 43 00:01:47,844 --> 00:01:50,584 between some of the world's leading national maturity 44 00:01:50,644 --> 00:01:52,504 institutes to work on prestandardization 45 00:01:53,444 --> 00:01:53,944 research 46 00:01:54,564 --> 00:01:56,745 leading to standards in the future. 47 00:01:57,780 --> 00:01:58,599 So quantum 48 00:01:59,140 --> 00:02:01,939 is often very complicated and has huge scope 49 00:02:01,939 --> 00:02:02,680 of application. 50 00:02:03,459 --> 00:02:04,099 This makes it, 51 00:02:04,819 --> 00:02:06,680 really difficult to understand the technologies 52 00:02:07,219 --> 00:02:09,879 sufficiently well to able to just standardize 53 00:02:11,525 --> 00:02:14,644 things. Faced with this problem, we work closely 54 00:02:14,644 --> 00:02:16,485 with The US first and then grant you 55 00:02:16,485 --> 00:02:17,764 with the other g seven, 56 00:02:18,245 --> 00:02:19,384 members and Australia 57 00:02:19,924 --> 00:02:20,985 to develop a framework 58 00:02:21,364 --> 00:02:23,144 that we can work together on standardization 59 00:02:23,924 --> 00:02:25,064 where there's a common 60 00:02:25,409 --> 00:02:25,909 strategic 61 00:02:26,530 --> 00:02:29,009 interest. The thing is because quantum is so 62 00:02:29,009 --> 00:02:30,150 broad and so difficult, 63 00:02:30,530 --> 00:02:32,449 no one country could do it all. So 64 00:02:32,449 --> 00:02:34,209 we have to work together on these sorts 65 00:02:34,209 --> 00:02:34,870 of issues. 66 00:02:36,370 --> 00:02:37,110 And, Tim, 67 00:02:37,489 --> 00:02:39,909 NPL has very, very strong 68 00:02:40,245 --> 00:02:41,705 connections with industry. 69 00:02:42,965 --> 00:02:46,325 What is industry telling you about what it 70 00:02:46,325 --> 00:02:48,185 wants from quantum standards? 71 00:02:49,525 --> 00:02:51,385 It's a that's a very interesting question. 72 00:02:52,325 --> 00:02:54,330 Industry tells us that 73 00:02:54,870 --> 00:02:57,110 you really need to work differently nowadays with 74 00:02:57,110 --> 00:02:57,610 standards. 75 00:02:57,989 --> 00:02:59,930 So emerging technologies traditionally 76 00:03:00,229 --> 00:03:02,729 have, had standards evolve gradually, 77 00:03:03,030 --> 00:03:05,449 probably in a serious type of effect. 78 00:03:05,915 --> 00:03:08,155 In reality now with the world being so 79 00:03:08,155 --> 00:03:08,655 global, 80 00:03:09,034 --> 00:03:12,395 information is shared almost instantly amongst everyone, and 81 00:03:12,395 --> 00:03:14,735 so everyone wants the answers right now. 82 00:03:15,194 --> 00:03:16,555 So if you want to make sure that 83 00:03:16,555 --> 00:03:17,295 your technology 84 00:03:17,754 --> 00:03:19,215 is part of the standardization 85 00:03:19,594 --> 00:03:21,375 process, which leads to adoption 86 00:03:21,810 --> 00:03:23,729 and use, then you've got to be working 87 00:03:23,729 --> 00:03:25,909 in this area in parallel to the innovation 88 00:03:25,969 --> 00:03:26,709 being developed. 89 00:03:27,409 --> 00:03:29,729 The thing is that innovators are usually so 90 00:03:29,729 --> 00:03:30,949 busy doing things, 91 00:03:31,330 --> 00:03:33,250 you know, like building the things they're trying 92 00:03:33,250 --> 00:03:36,064 to get standardized, so they don't always want 93 00:03:36,064 --> 00:03:36,884 to get involved. 94 00:03:37,344 --> 00:03:40,064 And this is where organizations like MPO can 95 00:03:40,064 --> 00:03:43,044 actually help them in the by expressing what 96 00:03:43,344 --> 00:03:45,504 they need to happen, we could look after 97 00:03:45,504 --> 00:03:47,344 them for that. In The UK, we've gone 98 00:03:47,344 --> 00:03:48,864 a bit further than that, and we've been 99 00:03:48,864 --> 00:03:49,764 running a pilot, 100 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:51,260 for, 101 00:03:51,879 --> 00:03:52,379 DCIT, 102 00:03:53,319 --> 00:03:55,819 called the UK Quantum Standards Network. 103 00:03:56,599 --> 00:03:59,159 And that is about bringing together all the 104 00:03:59,159 --> 00:04:02,405 government agencies that were interested in in in 105 00:04:02,405 --> 00:04:04,264 standardization of quantum technologies 106 00:04:04,885 --> 00:04:07,465 and sort of find make a more coordinated 107 00:04:07,764 --> 00:04:10,485 approach, making it easier for industry to get 108 00:04:10,485 --> 00:04:10,985 information, 109 00:04:11,365 --> 00:04:13,284 and making it easy for us to actually 110 00:04:13,284 --> 00:04:15,064 work together for a common interest. 111 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,779 It it must be really difficult though, Tim, 112 00:04:18,840 --> 00:04:21,340 because quantum technology is evolving 113 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:22,860 so quickly. 114 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,819 What are the challenges of defining 115 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:26,620 standards, 116 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,800 for the quantum industry in such a fast 117 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:31,020 paced environment? 118 00:04:32,334 --> 00:04:35,055 It's it's very, very challenging. And, actually, a 119 00:04:35,055 --> 00:04:36,914 lot of the work we do in MPL 120 00:04:37,454 --> 00:04:39,615 is to talk to people outside to try 121 00:04:39,615 --> 00:04:42,254 and understand what their future requirements are going 122 00:04:42,254 --> 00:04:44,175 to be so that we can do the 123 00:04:44,175 --> 00:04:47,375 research necessary to make those standards in the 124 00:04:47,375 --> 00:04:47,875 future. 125 00:04:48,290 --> 00:04:49,810 And, of course, this comes back to the 126 00:04:49,810 --> 00:04:52,709 NMIQ thing. We can't do it all alone. 127 00:04:53,250 --> 00:04:53,750 And 128 00:04:54,129 --> 00:04:57,189 so we speak to all our sister organizations 129 00:04:57,810 --> 00:04:59,889 around the world to get there and and 130 00:04:59,889 --> 00:05:00,610 to put onto, 131 00:05:01,464 --> 00:05:02,985 how this might work and what we need 132 00:05:02,985 --> 00:05:03,805 to work on. 133 00:05:04,105 --> 00:05:07,064 But it's it's it's an amazing thing, really. 134 00:05:07,064 --> 00:05:07,564 So 135 00:05:08,584 --> 00:05:11,384 in metrology, we use quantum technologies for doing 136 00:05:11,384 --> 00:05:12,365 exquisite measurements, 137 00:05:12,904 --> 00:05:14,579 and that's turned around on its head now. 138 00:05:14,659 --> 00:05:16,500 So the ability to do that means that 139 00:05:16,500 --> 00:05:19,319 we can really truly input into the evolving 140 00:05:19,379 --> 00:05:20,360 quantum technologies. 141 00:05:20,819 --> 00:05:23,219 And that knowledge now that we've developed over 142 00:05:23,219 --> 00:05:26,339 decades of use is now becoming incredibly relevant 143 00:05:26,339 --> 00:05:28,199 to people in helping people understand 144 00:05:28,735 --> 00:05:31,074 what they have and how you compare something. 145 00:05:31,295 --> 00:05:33,535 I mean, some really interesting examples is, you 146 00:05:33,535 --> 00:05:34,514 know, if we 147 00:05:35,055 --> 00:05:38,415 think about the application everyone talks about, quantum 148 00:05:38,415 --> 00:05:38,915 computing, 149 00:05:39,295 --> 00:05:41,134 and people say, how do you compare one 150 00:05:41,134 --> 00:05:42,209 computer to another? 151 00:05:42,769 --> 00:05:44,870 That's an incredibly difficult question. 152 00:05:45,329 --> 00:05:47,490 There are so many different types of quantum 153 00:05:47,490 --> 00:05:47,990 computers, 154 00:05:48,610 --> 00:05:51,169 all in theory there to do things in 155 00:05:51,169 --> 00:05:54,129 slightly different ways. If you can find a 156 00:05:54,129 --> 00:05:55,349 methodology for, 157 00:05:55,915 --> 00:05:58,555 characterizing one computer, that might not be very 158 00:05:58,555 --> 00:05:59,694 good for another type. 159 00:06:00,154 --> 00:06:02,555 So it's incredibly difficult, and it's a real 160 00:06:02,555 --> 00:06:04,555 big challenge. Hence, you have to work together 161 00:06:04,555 --> 00:06:06,574 collaboratively to come up with these answers. 162 00:06:07,834 --> 00:06:10,920 And I suppose it's particularly difficult with quantum 163 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:12,779 computing because we don't know 164 00:06:13,399 --> 00:06:13,899 which 165 00:06:14,199 --> 00:06:15,660 type of qubit 166 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:17,019 will ultimately 167 00:06:17,319 --> 00:06:19,879 be used in, you know, sort of quantum 168 00:06:19,879 --> 00:06:22,519 computers of the future. And indeed, it might 169 00:06:22,519 --> 00:06:23,819 be more than one 170 00:06:24,194 --> 00:06:26,354 type of qubit. So it must be very 171 00:06:26,354 --> 00:06:27,414 difficult to, 172 00:06:28,274 --> 00:06:30,214 well, I suppose keep up with the development 173 00:06:30,435 --> 00:06:33,334 of qubit technologies and and come up with 174 00:06:33,394 --> 00:06:35,254 with ways of evaluating them. 175 00:06:36,115 --> 00:06:37,735 Very much so. It's, you know, 176 00:06:38,050 --> 00:06:40,290 the the question of which qubit is best 177 00:06:40,290 --> 00:06:40,790 or 178 00:06:41,090 --> 00:06:43,830 how do you compare different qubit modalities 179 00:06:44,689 --> 00:06:46,770 is a really, really difficult question, and it 180 00:06:46,770 --> 00:06:48,069 can keep, metrologists 181 00:06:48,370 --> 00:06:51,030 talking in a pub for days and arguing 182 00:06:51,090 --> 00:06:53,464 about it. But in reality, what we do 183 00:06:53,464 --> 00:06:55,145 is we take it right back to the 184 00:06:55,145 --> 00:06:57,785 fundamentals of the physics side of it and 185 00:06:57,785 --> 00:07:00,024 try to truly understand the mechanism of how 186 00:07:00,024 --> 00:07:01,165 these things are working. 187 00:07:01,545 --> 00:07:03,004 And then we try to 188 00:07:03,384 --> 00:07:05,225 give that information to the people who are 189 00:07:05,225 --> 00:07:06,365 using these qubits, 190 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:08,720 in a way that's useful for them to 191 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:10,819 understand how they might want to, for example, 192 00:07:10,879 --> 00:07:13,759 control material quality, which could affect how a 193 00:07:13,759 --> 00:07:15,060 qubit, work. 194 00:07:15,439 --> 00:07:17,759 But this again, with MPL does quite a 195 00:07:17,759 --> 00:07:19,920 lot of work in qubit technologies, but not 196 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,355 in every type of qubit. So then we 197 00:07:22,355 --> 00:07:25,014 collaborate with, you know, The US, Japan, 198 00:07:25,555 --> 00:07:26,694 Germany, etcetera 199 00:07:27,314 --> 00:07:29,634 to get their input so that The UK 200 00:07:29,634 --> 00:07:31,014 can access that knowledge, 201 00:07:31,394 --> 00:07:33,795 and then our collaborators get the knowledge from 202 00:07:33,795 --> 00:07:34,935 The UK as well. 203 00:07:36,089 --> 00:07:38,169 And and John, I wanted to bring you 204 00:07:38,169 --> 00:07:38,649 in, 205 00:07:39,050 --> 00:07:41,149 and talk about quantum sensors, 206 00:07:41,850 --> 00:07:42,169 which, 207 00:07:42,810 --> 00:07:44,990 they they seem to be a fairly advanced, 208 00:07:45,850 --> 00:07:48,829 quantum technology with some commercial products 209 00:07:49,264 --> 00:07:50,404 available today. 210 00:07:50,865 --> 00:07:54,564 What metrology and standards are required to create 211 00:07:54,705 --> 00:07:55,444 high quality 212 00:07:55,904 --> 00:07:56,884 quantum sensors? 213 00:07:57,585 --> 00:07:59,665 Yeah. You're right. That there there are products 214 00:07:59,665 --> 00:08:02,485 on the market already, which are using quantum 215 00:08:02,545 --> 00:08:03,045 phenomena. 216 00:08:04,699 --> 00:08:06,860 But on that question of what standards are 217 00:08:06,860 --> 00:08:09,100 required, there are two sides to that. One 218 00:08:09,100 --> 00:08:11,419 is that quantum sensors are more sensitive, more 219 00:08:11,419 --> 00:08:13,919 accurate, and more useful than existing sensors. 220 00:08:14,620 --> 00:08:17,979 For example, magnetometers for monitoring brain function, drive 221 00:08:17,979 --> 00:08:21,285 emitters for mapping underground resources, spectroscopic 222 00:08:21,824 --> 00:08:22,324 photodetectors 223 00:08:23,105 --> 00:08:23,925 for assessing 224 00:08:24,544 --> 00:08:25,204 gas leaks. 225 00:08:25,824 --> 00:08:28,144 And what matters to those buying the sensor 226 00:08:28,144 --> 00:08:29,044 is its performance, 227 00:08:29,824 --> 00:08:30,959 not that it's quantum. 228 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,639 And in that it's in that sense, standards 229 00:08:34,639 --> 00:08:36,100 are needed to extend, 230 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,139 the the standard standards range that already exists 231 00:08:41,839 --> 00:08:43,360 down into the end of these, 232 00:08:44,399 --> 00:08:45,860 finer and finer details. 233 00:08:47,835 --> 00:08:49,054 But on the other hand, 234 00:08:49,835 --> 00:08:51,934 quantum sensors can only be built with components 235 00:08:51,995 --> 00:08:52,654 and subsystems 236 00:08:53,355 --> 00:08:55,754 that are themselves tested and found ideal for 237 00:08:55,754 --> 00:08:56,415 the task. 238 00:08:56,875 --> 00:09:01,035 Iron traps, diamond substrates with nitrogen vacancies, NV 239 00:09:01,035 --> 00:09:01,535 centers, 240 00:09:02,100 --> 00:09:05,159 superconducting quantum interference devices, SQUIDs. 241 00:09:06,579 --> 00:09:08,120 These also need standards. 242 00:09:09,539 --> 00:09:11,720 So we are approaching it from both directions. 243 00:09:12,179 --> 00:09:15,559 We are helping characterize the the quantum devices 244 00:09:15,700 --> 00:09:17,159 and the quantum characteristics, 245 00:09:18,065 --> 00:09:20,144 And we're helping work out how it is 246 00:09:20,144 --> 00:09:21,125 that you actually, 247 00:09:22,225 --> 00:09:25,524 measure some assess something that is measuring something 248 00:09:25,825 --> 00:09:29,345 more accurately than anything else can, where there's 249 00:09:29,345 --> 00:09:31,365 nothing to compare it against. 250 00:09:31,745 --> 00:09:34,079 And, NMI is like NPL 251 00:09:34,459 --> 00:09:36,539 are are doing things like working out how 252 00:09:36,539 --> 00:09:38,799 how to characterize single photon detectors. 253 00:09:40,539 --> 00:09:43,500 The the only single photon detectors can detect 254 00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:44,240 single photons. 255 00:09:46,595 --> 00:09:48,855 And I I wanted to ask you about, 256 00:09:49,715 --> 00:09:52,134 single photon detectors and sources, 257 00:09:52,995 --> 00:09:56,215 in light of quantum cryptography, which is another 258 00:09:56,835 --> 00:09:59,795 quantum technology that, I mean, I I suppose 259 00:09:59,795 --> 00:10:01,980 you can say it's fairly mature. There are 260 00:10:02,220 --> 00:10:02,720 commercial 261 00:10:03,179 --> 00:10:04,480 systems available. 262 00:10:05,659 --> 00:10:08,299 And in those in that technology, it's really 263 00:10:08,299 --> 00:10:08,799 important 264 00:10:09,179 --> 00:10:11,360 to have photon sources and detectors 265 00:10:11,740 --> 00:10:13,120 that are high quality 266 00:10:13,740 --> 00:10:14,639 and secure. 267 00:10:15,274 --> 00:10:16,335 So how is NPL 268 00:10:16,794 --> 00:10:19,615 supporting the development of quantum cryptography? 269 00:10:20,315 --> 00:10:23,674 Yeah. So sources and detectors in themselves are 270 00:10:23,674 --> 00:10:24,815 are not secure. 271 00:10:25,355 --> 00:10:27,595 It's the way the system is built around 272 00:10:27,595 --> 00:10:29,774 it that that creates that security. 273 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,000 And that is one of the, 274 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,100 one of the aspects of 275 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,659 the performance of a QKD system 276 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,220 that is potentially vulnerable, 277 00:10:40,159 --> 00:10:41,620 to outside attack. 278 00:10:43,365 --> 00:10:46,985 We've, led the way in characterizing QKD systems, 279 00:10:47,044 --> 00:10:49,044 the boxes that are, as you say, are 280 00:10:49,044 --> 00:10:50,105 already on the market. 281 00:10:51,605 --> 00:10:54,324 QKD, just to elaborate, is a way of 282 00:10:54,324 --> 00:10:55,304 generating cryptographic 283 00:10:55,684 --> 00:10:58,870 keys that are unbreakable because they're intrinsically random. 284 00:10:59,090 --> 00:11:01,910 They use the randomness of of quantum physics. 285 00:11:02,929 --> 00:11:04,629 They do it by generating 286 00:11:05,009 --> 00:11:07,750 pairs of photons that are randomly coded. 287 00:11:08,375 --> 00:11:11,195 So there's two levels of randomness going on, 288 00:11:11,815 --> 00:11:12,954 usually by polarization. 289 00:11:13,735 --> 00:11:16,054 And then the process can't be intercepted if 290 00:11:16,054 --> 00:11:17,434 they are single photons 291 00:11:17,975 --> 00:11:20,154 without destroying that information, without 292 00:11:20,779 --> 00:11:23,179 the two the sender and receiver knowing that 293 00:11:23,179 --> 00:11:24,879 there's someone trying to break in. 294 00:11:25,340 --> 00:11:26,480 So like you say, 295 00:11:26,940 --> 00:11:27,679 the sources, 296 00:11:28,220 --> 00:11:29,840 but even most of the detectors, 297 00:11:30,779 --> 00:11:32,399 are a are a point of vulnerability 298 00:11:33,464 --> 00:11:35,725 because you can you can blind, 299 00:11:36,985 --> 00:11:37,225 the, 300 00:11:38,584 --> 00:11:39,324 the detector 301 00:11:39,865 --> 00:11:42,184 by by shining a put a brighter source 302 00:11:42,184 --> 00:11:43,725 into it and then 303 00:11:44,105 --> 00:11:47,144 use your own source to, to spoof the 304 00:11:47,144 --> 00:11:47,644 system. 305 00:11:48,750 --> 00:11:50,769 That's only one. There's other vulnerabilities 306 00:11:51,950 --> 00:11:54,750 like, they don't actually use single photons. And 307 00:11:54,750 --> 00:11:57,070 at this point, they tend to be small 308 00:11:57,070 --> 00:11:59,070 bundles of photons. But if they use too 309 00:11:59,070 --> 00:12:01,790 many, it's possible to split enough of them 310 00:12:01,790 --> 00:12:02,290 off 311 00:12:02,674 --> 00:12:03,315 and and, 312 00:12:04,674 --> 00:12:06,774 and join in on the the key, 313 00:12:07,475 --> 00:12:08,375 key reception. 314 00:12:09,154 --> 00:12:11,815 So we went through all the potential vulnerabilities. 315 00:12:12,514 --> 00:12:14,355 I say we, not me personally. I'm not 316 00:12:14,355 --> 00:12:15,414 allowed in the lab. 317 00:12:15,870 --> 00:12:17,950 We went through all the potential vulnerabilities that 318 00:12:17,950 --> 00:12:19,570 had been identified in QKD, 319 00:12:20,269 --> 00:12:21,090 and we tested 320 00:12:21,470 --> 00:12:23,250 we tested existing systems 321 00:12:23,870 --> 00:12:26,029 against them. And we and we worked out 322 00:12:26,029 --> 00:12:26,529 as 323 00:12:26,910 --> 00:12:28,990 the the sort of criteria that would be 324 00:12:28,990 --> 00:12:31,514 needed in the standard, And we took that 325 00:12:31,514 --> 00:12:32,654 into Etsy, 326 00:12:33,674 --> 00:12:35,754 for the building of their QKD sis 327 00:12:36,315 --> 00:12:37,294 standards family. 328 00:12:38,715 --> 00:12:41,595 And and, John, Tim's already touched a little 329 00:12:41,595 --> 00:12:43,615 bit on the need to 330 00:12:44,610 --> 00:12:48,789 develop performance metrics and benchmarking for quantum computers. 331 00:12:49,169 --> 00:12:52,049 And I understand that NPL is leading, an 332 00:12:52,049 --> 00:12:52,549 initiative, 333 00:12:53,649 --> 00:12:54,629 in that direction. 334 00:12:55,409 --> 00:12:57,649 Why do we need these metrics, and and 335 00:12:57,649 --> 00:13:00,149 what are the challenges in creating them? 336 00:13:01,075 --> 00:13:04,054 There's there is more than one initiative underway. 337 00:13:05,235 --> 00:13:07,394 And the one that I I closest to 338 00:13:07,394 --> 00:13:09,315 is the way that it's been brought into 339 00:13:09,315 --> 00:13:10,535 the standards world. 340 00:13:11,554 --> 00:13:13,254 It's too early for, 341 00:13:14,059 --> 00:13:15,120 full standardization, 342 00:13:16,059 --> 00:13:17,740 but there is a there is a there's 343 00:13:17,740 --> 00:13:20,059 a real demand from the potential buyers of 344 00:13:20,059 --> 00:13:20,959 quantum computers 345 00:13:21,339 --> 00:13:23,339 to know what it is, what are their 346 00:13:23,339 --> 00:13:25,659 strengths, and how do they compare one against 347 00:13:25,659 --> 00:13:26,320 the other. 348 00:13:26,945 --> 00:13:28,565 But that is far from 349 00:13:28,945 --> 00:13:30,085 a a simple question. 350 00:13:30,465 --> 00:13:33,125 It's not a simple question with conventional computers, 351 00:13:33,345 --> 00:13:35,665 but it's even more difficult when we have 352 00:13:35,665 --> 00:13:36,485 no universal 353 00:13:37,024 --> 00:13:40,120 error corrected quantum computer. As Tim said, there 354 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:40,620 are 355 00:13:40,959 --> 00:13:41,459 a 356 00:13:41,799 --> 00:13:42,940 a number of platforms, 357 00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:45,659 including superconducting qubits, 358 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:47,019 ion traps, 359 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,299 that are under consideration. 360 00:13:51,215 --> 00:13:53,774 In the early days of attempting to benchmark 361 00:13:53,774 --> 00:13:54,274 them, 362 00:13:54,735 --> 00:13:56,815 it was suggested that you could simply count 363 00:13:56,815 --> 00:13:58,815 the number of qubits and people will still 364 00:13:58,815 --> 00:13:59,715 put up graphs 365 00:14:00,254 --> 00:14:02,514 and say, my computer has 366 00:14:03,919 --> 00:14:06,559 48 or a 150 367 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:07,620 cubits in it. 368 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,399 And when it was it was realized that 369 00:14:10,399 --> 00:14:12,959 in terms of computing power, that wasn't enough. 370 00:14:12,959 --> 00:14:15,919 They moved to gate depth. How many how 371 00:14:15,919 --> 00:14:17,539 many gates, how many processes 372 00:14:17,985 --> 00:14:20,384 could your quantum processor go through before it 373 00:14:20,384 --> 00:14:21,365 lost the information? 374 00:14:22,304 --> 00:14:23,684 That too is too simplistic. 375 00:14:24,784 --> 00:14:25,524 And so, 376 00:14:27,184 --> 00:14:29,205 we're beginning to look at, 377 00:14:30,304 --> 00:14:32,085 at at more multidimensional 378 00:14:32,705 --> 00:14:33,205 aspects 379 00:14:33,610 --> 00:14:34,750 to hardware benchmarking. 380 00:14:35,610 --> 00:14:36,910 And at the same time, 381 00:14:37,690 --> 00:14:40,269 I'm trying to answer the question, if performance 382 00:14:40,410 --> 00:14:41,470 is what matters, 383 00:14:42,009 --> 00:14:44,750 surely, it's how quickly and how effectively 384 00:14:45,450 --> 00:14:46,190 your quantum 385 00:14:46,570 --> 00:14:47,070 processor 386 00:14:47,450 --> 00:14:49,704 can do a particular task. 387 00:14:50,964 --> 00:14:52,964 That, it turns out, isn't as simple a 388 00:14:52,964 --> 00:14:54,904 question as you might think either, 389 00:14:57,044 --> 00:15:00,004 partly because quantum processors are part of a 390 00:15:00,004 --> 00:15:00,450 stack 391 00:15:01,250 --> 00:15:03,029 in in a similar way to telecoms, 392 00:15:03,970 --> 00:15:06,049 and the error correction is happening in a 393 00:15:06,049 --> 00:15:07,669 multitude of different ways. 394 00:15:08,049 --> 00:15:10,290 But we're we're attacking that one as well, 395 00:15:10,290 --> 00:15:12,710 and and we're bringing the answers to these, 396 00:15:13,330 --> 00:15:14,149 these researches 397 00:15:14,955 --> 00:15:17,754 into the standards, particularly in SanSan, like the 398 00:15:17,754 --> 00:15:19,134 European standards bodies, 399 00:15:19,595 --> 00:15:22,634 and I see IEC ISO, the global standards 400 00:15:22,634 --> 00:15:24,415 bodies, where they're doing 401 00:15:24,875 --> 00:15:28,175 early stage standards. They're doing technical reports on 402 00:15:28,669 --> 00:15:29,329 the benchmarking 403 00:15:30,350 --> 00:15:33,470 systems that people have have come up with 404 00:15:33,470 --> 00:15:33,970 already. 405 00:15:35,470 --> 00:15:37,709 So so John and Tim, I I did 406 00:15:37,709 --> 00:15:40,289 my PhD many, many, many years ago, 407 00:15:40,715 --> 00:15:42,955 and I became a science journalist. But I 408 00:15:42,955 --> 00:15:44,554 often think about, you know, sort of an 409 00:15:44,554 --> 00:15:45,774 alternative universe 410 00:15:46,475 --> 00:15:48,894 where I could have done something else. 411 00:15:49,355 --> 00:15:51,934 And one thing that I've always found appealing 412 00:15:52,730 --> 00:15:55,049 is the idea of working at a place 413 00:15:55,049 --> 00:15:56,029 like NPL. 414 00:15:56,490 --> 00:15:58,029 I mean, it just sounds like, 415 00:15:58,569 --> 00:16:00,329 well, it doesn't sound like it. I know 416 00:16:00,329 --> 00:16:01,789 that people there are doing 417 00:16:03,129 --> 00:16:05,769 a vast, you know, sort of variety of 418 00:16:05,769 --> 00:16:09,254 really interesting research and working with industry and 419 00:16:09,554 --> 00:16:11,095 developing lots of, 420 00:16:11,475 --> 00:16:13,014 of of new technologies. 421 00:16:13,634 --> 00:16:15,875 So, you know, if if there's somebody out 422 00:16:15,875 --> 00:16:18,215 there who's just finished a PhD, 423 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,679 How would you advise them in terms of, 424 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:24,779 pursuing a career at NPL? 425 00:16:25,559 --> 00:16:26,379 What's available? 426 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:28,840 So I think one of the things to 427 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,740 first say is that measurement metrology 428 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,764 underpins almost everything everybody does. So there are 429 00:16:35,764 --> 00:16:37,764 lots and lots of fields of interest that 430 00:16:37,764 --> 00:16:40,084 you can you can work within. And as 431 00:16:40,084 --> 00:16:41,784 I mentioned, at the beginning, 432 00:16:42,964 --> 00:16:45,684 we've been using quantum for doing really, really 433 00:16:45,684 --> 00:16:47,610 amazing measurements for a long time. 434 00:16:48,089 --> 00:16:49,870 So we called that quantum metrology. 435 00:16:50,730 --> 00:16:52,329 And that knowledge has led us to be 436 00:16:52,329 --> 00:16:53,149 able to do metrology 437 00:16:53,529 --> 00:16:54,269 for quantum. 438 00:16:54,809 --> 00:16:56,589 So this is basic fundamental 439 00:16:56,889 --> 00:16:59,529 science. So if that's what drives people, there 440 00:16:59,529 --> 00:17:01,309 is in these emerging technologies, 441 00:17:01,625 --> 00:17:04,284 there's a requirement to do fundamental physics. 442 00:17:05,304 --> 00:17:05,804 But 443 00:17:06,184 --> 00:17:08,345 as you develop that, you get to play 444 00:17:08,345 --> 00:17:09,404 with all the applying, 445 00:17:10,105 --> 00:17:11,964 uses of that of that technology. 446 00:17:12,424 --> 00:17:13,944 So we get to work in lots and 447 00:17:13,944 --> 00:17:14,845 lots of fields, 448 00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:17,910 really help to enable things to actually really, 449 00:17:17,910 --> 00:17:19,529 really happen. So exposure 450 00:17:19,910 --> 00:17:22,630 to lots of brilliant people around the country, 451 00:17:22,630 --> 00:17:24,869 around the world, it's an it's an amazing 452 00:17:24,869 --> 00:17:26,250 opportunity for people. 453 00:17:27,494 --> 00:17:28,154 I would 454 00:17:28,615 --> 00:17:29,115 add. 455 00:17:29,575 --> 00:17:31,335 One of the things about coming here to 456 00:17:31,335 --> 00:17:33,494 NPL so like like you, Hamish, I did 457 00:17:33,494 --> 00:17:35,414 my PhD, and then I went off and, 458 00:17:35,894 --> 00:17:36,934 I actually worked, 459 00:17:37,255 --> 00:17:39,355 for the, Institute of Physics Publishing. 460 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,700 That's my that's my first foray into, 461 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:44,779 public publishing. 462 00:17:46,839 --> 00:17:48,679 And it suited me down to the ground. 463 00:17:48,679 --> 00:17:51,000 I really liked my time there, and it 464 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,460 suited my way of working. 465 00:17:53,015 --> 00:17:54,075 Coming to NPL, 466 00:17:54,455 --> 00:17:56,375 having been there and having been in the 467 00:17:56,375 --> 00:17:57,674 standards world for 468 00:17:57,975 --> 00:17:58,795 twenty years, 469 00:18:00,535 --> 00:18:03,515 that what Tim's talking about, working on metrology, 470 00:18:04,215 --> 00:18:06,990 it really suits people who not just do 471 00:18:06,990 --> 00:18:09,470 proof of principle, which is largely what doing 472 00:18:09,470 --> 00:18:11,410 the PhD is, but love 473 00:18:11,950 --> 00:18:13,650 getting things down to 474 00:18:13,950 --> 00:18:15,009 that nth degree 475 00:18:15,309 --> 00:18:16,049 of of precision, 476 00:18:17,470 --> 00:18:19,534 which which is a is a very 477 00:18:19,835 --> 00:18:22,954 different mindset from you'll find almost anywhere else 478 00:18:22,954 --> 00:18:23,694 in the world. 479 00:18:24,075 --> 00:18:26,634 But that doesn't mean that's everyone at NPL 480 00:18:26,634 --> 00:18:28,974 because I they wouldn't have employed me otherwise. 481 00:18:30,329 --> 00:18:32,990 There there there's lots of different roles, 482 00:18:33,769 --> 00:18:34,909 within NPL 483 00:18:35,450 --> 00:18:36,909 other than working on 484 00:18:37,369 --> 00:18:37,869 metrology 485 00:18:38,569 --> 00:18:39,069 itself. 486 00:18:40,329 --> 00:18:42,329 And I'm I'm pleased that I've been taken 487 00:18:42,329 --> 00:18:44,829 on as a standards expert rather than 488 00:18:45,144 --> 00:18:47,005 as a an experimental physicist. 489 00:18:48,505 --> 00:18:50,744 And and I I should say that I'm 490 00:18:50,744 --> 00:18:52,904 guessing that it's it's not only people with 491 00:18:52,904 --> 00:18:54,125 PhDs in physics 492 00:18:54,505 --> 00:18:55,884 that you're looking for. 493 00:18:56,984 --> 00:18:58,204 Yeah. We're we're we're 494 00:18:58,609 --> 00:19:00,369 we're looking for all all people. And in 495 00:19:00,369 --> 00:19:02,470 fact, we have apprenticeship schemes where, 496 00:19:03,170 --> 00:19:05,170 you know, we we take people in and 497 00:19:05,170 --> 00:19:07,910 develop their skills. Engineers are really important. 498 00:19:08,769 --> 00:19:10,230 These people are sometimes 499 00:19:10,865 --> 00:19:12,805 more difficult to find than the PhD 500 00:19:13,825 --> 00:19:15,985 people. So there's lots of opportunities, but you 501 00:19:15,985 --> 00:19:18,065 need the support around it as well. Need 502 00:19:18,065 --> 00:19:20,725 the, people who need to understand intellectual property. 503 00:19:20,945 --> 00:19:23,365 The people who manage these highly complex, 504 00:19:24,289 --> 00:19:25,970 projects, especially when there are a lot of 505 00:19:25,970 --> 00:19:26,470 partners, 506 00:19:26,929 --> 00:19:27,429 etcetera. 507 00:19:27,890 --> 00:19:29,269 But I think the I mean, 508 00:19:29,890 --> 00:19:32,069 it's now quite recognized that 509 00:19:32,369 --> 00:19:34,369 you need to invest in this sort of 510 00:19:34,369 --> 00:19:34,869 infrastructure, 511 00:19:35,250 --> 00:19:36,869 you know, this measurement capability 512 00:19:37,424 --> 00:19:38,644 in order to actually 513 00:19:39,424 --> 00:19:41,424 allow these things to come to market, to 514 00:19:41,424 --> 00:19:43,045 give The UK the opportunity 515 00:19:43,345 --> 00:19:46,065 to have both growth in the GDP, but 516 00:19:46,065 --> 00:19:47,924 also look after its, security. 517 00:19:48,705 --> 00:19:51,184 And it's really good because The UK's national 518 00:19:51,184 --> 00:19:51,684 strategy 519 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,640 quantum actually recognizes this and talks about it 520 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,099 as a really important mechanism. 521 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:58,640 And I think that's something that's really important 522 00:19:58,640 --> 00:19:59,140 because 523 00:19:59,679 --> 00:20:00,819 metrology institutes 524 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,659 have been the unsung heroes behind the scenes 525 00:20:05,204 --> 00:20:05,704 for 526 00:20:06,005 --> 00:20:09,224 decades and decade developing capability that enables 527 00:20:09,525 --> 00:20:10,025 trade, 528 00:20:10,484 --> 00:20:12,904 enables safety, enables so many things. 529 00:20:13,365 --> 00:20:14,585 But because it happens 530 00:20:14,884 --> 00:20:15,384 seamlessly, 531 00:20:16,085 --> 00:20:16,585 usually, 532 00:20:17,059 --> 00:20:19,400 then it's just invisible to most people. 533 00:20:19,859 --> 00:20:22,359 But now people recognize with these very complex 534 00:20:22,420 --> 00:20:25,059 technologies coming to market that for those to 535 00:20:25,059 --> 00:20:27,079 happen, you have to have good metrology. 536 00:20:28,914 --> 00:20:31,154 And Tim, we we've spoken a bit about 537 00:20:31,154 --> 00:20:34,194 NPL's connections with industry, but I would assume 538 00:20:34,194 --> 00:20:35,654 that you have very strong, 539 00:20:36,275 --> 00:20:38,214 connections with the academic world, 540 00:20:38,835 --> 00:20:41,255 in physics and and other related, 541 00:20:42,914 --> 00:20:44,220 subjects. Is that right? 542 00:20:44,859 --> 00:20:47,980 Yeah. I mean, we again, we have we're 543 00:20:47,980 --> 00:20:49,200 a reasonably big laboratory, 544 00:20:49,579 --> 00:20:51,419 but the amount of questions we get asked, 545 00:20:51,419 --> 00:20:53,740 you couldn't answer them all yourself. And so 546 00:20:53,740 --> 00:20:55,500 MPL doesn't go out there to try and 547 00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:57,894 reinvent what other people have done. It goes 548 00:20:57,894 --> 00:20:59,654 out there to try and collaborate with the 549 00:20:59,654 --> 00:21:01,035 best people around the country. 550 00:21:01,494 --> 00:21:03,654 In, in the quantum side, that will be 551 00:21:03,654 --> 00:21:05,115 with the quantum hubs, 552 00:21:05,494 --> 00:21:07,015 but people outside that, 553 00:21:07,414 --> 00:21:07,914 international, 554 00:21:08,615 --> 00:21:09,755 academia, etcetera. 555 00:21:10,599 --> 00:21:13,240 We've tried to identify where we have gaps 556 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,159 in our knowledge or The UK has gaps 557 00:21:15,159 --> 00:21:16,839 in its knowledge, and then we try to 558 00:21:16,839 --> 00:21:19,019 collaborate with the people who have those skills. 559 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:21,500 And 560 00:21:21,974 --> 00:21:24,315 I just wanna ask both of you, 561 00:21:25,174 --> 00:21:27,494 what, you know, what do you find most 562 00:21:27,494 --> 00:21:28,954 exciting about working 563 00:21:29,575 --> 00:21:30,075 in 564 00:21:30,454 --> 00:21:30,954 quantum 565 00:21:31,654 --> 00:21:34,454 metrology? Is it is it the the the 566 00:21:34,454 --> 00:21:36,930 pace of change and, you you know, the 567 00:21:37,410 --> 00:21:39,410 always having to keep up with the latest 568 00:21:39,410 --> 00:21:40,470 research? Or 569 00:21:41,330 --> 00:21:43,330 is it just the novelty that, you know, 570 00:21:43,330 --> 00:21:44,150 these these 571 00:21:44,930 --> 00:21:45,430 esoteric 572 00:21:46,049 --> 00:21:48,549 concepts of quantum physics can be 573 00:21:49,664 --> 00:21:50,404 turned into 574 00:21:50,705 --> 00:21:52,785 technologies? What, you know, what what gets you 575 00:21:52,785 --> 00:21:54,485 guys up, in the morning? 576 00:21:56,144 --> 00:21:58,144 I'd go with the first one. It's, it 577 00:21:58,305 --> 00:22:00,945 it's remarkable. I mean, I've my background was 578 00:22:00,945 --> 00:22:01,684 in optoelectronics 579 00:22:02,144 --> 00:22:02,884 and communications. 580 00:22:03,664 --> 00:22:05,045 And back in the nineties, 581 00:22:06,089 --> 00:22:08,170 you would go to conferences every year, and 582 00:22:08,170 --> 00:22:08,829 they would 583 00:22:09,130 --> 00:22:12,170 be making promises which were slightly better than 584 00:22:12,170 --> 00:22:14,730 previously. But there was no there was nothing 585 00:22:14,730 --> 00:22:15,230 groundbreaking 586 00:22:15,769 --> 00:22:18,134 about it. The physics was well known, and 587 00:22:18,214 --> 00:22:20,295 and they were really just solving engineering and 588 00:22:20,295 --> 00:22:21,515 manufacturing problems, 589 00:22:21,815 --> 00:22:23,815 which isn't easy, which is why I don't 590 00:22:23,815 --> 00:22:24,954 do it. That either. 591 00:22:26,055 --> 00:22:26,875 But now 592 00:22:27,255 --> 00:22:29,414 the the real progress and when one of 593 00:22:29,414 --> 00:22:31,319 the areas within quantum where 594 00:22:31,799 --> 00:22:34,119 progress has been massive in just the last 595 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:35,259 two or three years 596 00:22:35,639 --> 00:22:37,659 is in, distributed entanglement 597 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,279 where the the the test 598 00:22:41,079 --> 00:22:42,059 three years ago, 599 00:22:42,759 --> 00:22:45,019 the the first tests that you could send 600 00:22:45,765 --> 00:22:47,144 an entangled photon 601 00:22:47,445 --> 00:22:48,744 out over, 602 00:22:49,125 --> 00:22:51,625 say, 15 kilometers of fiber and 603 00:22:52,244 --> 00:22:54,184 and measurably still be entangled 604 00:22:54,884 --> 00:22:57,125 had just been done. And now there are 605 00:22:57,125 --> 00:22:59,144 test networks all over the world, 606 00:22:59,450 --> 00:23:01,549 which are getting ready for product 607 00:23:02,009 --> 00:23:04,910 to make to use quantum entanglement in in 608 00:23:05,210 --> 00:23:06,509 in networks at scale. 609 00:23:07,049 --> 00:23:09,549 That that sort of pace of change is, 610 00:23:10,250 --> 00:23:11,549 quite exciting, really. 611 00:23:12,250 --> 00:23:13,710 And what about you, Tim? 612 00:23:14,275 --> 00:23:16,934 So for me, I mean, it's it's truly 613 00:23:17,154 --> 00:23:19,315 a privilege to be part of working with 614 00:23:19,315 --> 00:23:22,115 so many talented people either at NPL or 615 00:23:22,115 --> 00:23:24,755 in academia and industry in The UK or 616 00:23:24,755 --> 00:23:25,255 international. 617 00:23:25,714 --> 00:23:27,654 You get to see so many different 618 00:23:28,035 --> 00:23:30,549 people. You get to see so many brilliant 619 00:23:30,549 --> 00:23:31,049 technologies. 620 00:23:31,669 --> 00:23:33,210 Last week, I was at CERN. 621 00:23:34,230 --> 00:23:36,230 You know, you get exposed to the things 622 00:23:36,230 --> 00:23:37,990 that you you know, when you're at university, 623 00:23:37,990 --> 00:23:41,049 you only ever dreamt about getting involved in. 624 00:23:41,190 --> 00:23:41,929 And yet 625 00:23:42,544 --> 00:23:45,184 through metrology and through working with a an 626 00:23:45,184 --> 00:23:46,964 organization that's very international, 627 00:23:47,585 --> 00:23:49,684 it's amazing what you can get involved in. 628 00:23:51,345 --> 00:23:54,304 Well, that's great. Thanks. Thanks, Tim and John, 629 00:23:54,304 --> 00:23:55,684 for coming on the podcast, 630 00:23:56,224 --> 00:23:56,724 today. 631 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:58,819 No worries. Thanks, Janesh. 632 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,259 That was NPL's Tim Pryor and John Devaney. 633 00:24:10,785 --> 00:24:12,725 Thanks to both of them for a fascinating 634 00:24:12,945 --> 00:24:13,445 conversation. 635 00:24:14,065 --> 00:24:17,105 I'm Hamish Johnston, and our producer is Fred 636 00:24:17,105 --> 00:24:17,605 Isles. 637 00:24:18,305 --> 00:24:21,605 This podcast is sponsored by the National Physical 638 00:24:21,664 --> 00:24:22,164 Laboratory, 639 00:24:22,785 --> 00:24:25,445 which retains copyright on this episode. 640 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:27,779 NPL is The UK's 641 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:29,299 National Metrology 642 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:30,340 Institute. 643 00:24:31,039 --> 00:24:34,660 It provides cutting edge measurement science, engineering, 644 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:35,859 and technology 645 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:37,859 to underpin prosperity 646 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,660 and quality of life in The UK. 647 00:24:41,505 --> 00:24:44,884 NPL bridges the gap between research and industry 648 00:24:45,265 --> 00:24:48,244 by providing the measurement science, facilities, 649 00:24:48,704 --> 00:24:49,605 and expertise 650 00:24:50,144 --> 00:24:51,365 needed to accelerate 651 00:24:51,744 --> 00:24:52,244 innovation 652 00:24:52,704 --> 00:24:54,404 from lab to market 653 00:24:54,785 --> 00:24:56,404 across various sectors, 654 00:24:57,110 --> 00:24:58,330 including quantum.