1 00:00:07,759 --> 00:00:10,559 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly 2 00:00:10,559 --> 00:00:11,059 podcast. 3 00:00:11,359 --> 00:00:12,580 I'm Hamish Johnston. 4 00:00:13,125 --> 00:00:15,605 It's book week here at Physics World. And 5 00:00:15,605 --> 00:00:18,184 over the course of three days, we're presenting 6 00:00:18,644 --> 00:00:22,164 conversations with the authors of three fascinating and 7 00:00:22,164 --> 00:00:23,864 fun books about physics. 8 00:00:24,484 --> 00:00:27,785 Today, my guest is the physicist Daniel Whiteson, 9 00:00:28,369 --> 00:00:30,949 who along with the artist Andy Warner 10 00:00:31,329 --> 00:00:35,409 has created the delightful book, Do Aliens Speak 11 00:00:35,409 --> 00:00:35,909 Physics? 12 00:00:37,090 --> 00:00:39,670 This episode is supported by the APS 13 00:00:40,049 --> 00:00:41,829 Global Physics Summit, 14 00:00:42,424 --> 00:00:45,954 which takes place on March 15 00:00:45,954 --> 00:00:48,125 2026 16 00:00:48,344 --> 00:00:49,645 in Denver, Colorado 17 00:00:50,265 --> 00:00:51,325 and online. 18 00:00:52,184 --> 00:00:54,844 At the largest physics meeting in the world, 19 00:00:54,984 --> 00:00:57,004 you can join thousands of physicists, 20 00:00:57,850 --> 00:01:00,969 students, and policy leaders for a week of 21 00:01:00,969 --> 00:01:02,510 connection and collaboration. 22 00:01:03,929 --> 00:01:06,969 Immerse yourself in the cutting edge science that's 23 00:01:06,969 --> 00:01:10,090 shaping our shared future, and be part of 24 00:01:10,090 --> 00:01:11,950 the global physics community 25 00:01:12,665 --> 00:01:14,444 driving innovation forward. 26 00:01:15,145 --> 00:01:19,484 Explore the meeting at summit.aps.org. 27 00:01:21,145 --> 00:01:22,605 Is physics universal, 28 00:01:23,064 --> 00:01:25,484 or is it shaped by human perspective? 29 00:01:26,490 --> 00:01:29,130 This will be an important question if and 30 00:01:29,130 --> 00:01:30,750 when we are visited 31 00:01:31,049 --> 00:01:33,230 by an advanced alien civilization. 32 00:01:34,329 --> 00:01:35,310 Would we recognize 33 00:01:35,689 --> 00:01:37,709 our visitors alien science? 34 00:01:38,215 --> 00:01:40,234 Or indeed, could a technologically 35 00:01:40,775 --> 00:01:41,915 advanced civilization 36 00:01:42,614 --> 00:01:44,314 have no science at all? 37 00:01:45,094 --> 00:01:48,234 These questions and much more are addressed in 38 00:01:48,375 --> 00:01:49,114 do aliens 39 00:01:49,415 --> 00:01:50,314 speak physics? 40 00:01:50,989 --> 00:01:53,069 And here to talk about his book is 41 00:01:53,069 --> 00:01:54,129 Daniel Whiteson. 42 00:01:54,670 --> 00:01:57,709 He's a particle physicist at the University of 43 00:01:57,709 --> 00:01:58,209 California, 44 00:01:58,590 --> 00:01:59,090 Irvine 45 00:01:59,469 --> 00:02:02,129 from where he joins me. Hi, Daniel. 46 00:02:02,430 --> 00:02:03,649 Welcome to the podcast. 47 00:02:04,685 --> 00:02:06,444 Hi. Thanks very much for having me. I'm 48 00:02:06,444 --> 00:02:09,004 so excited to talk about aliens with you. 49 00:02:09,004 --> 00:02:10,685 Yeah. Well well well, so am I. I 50 00:02:10,685 --> 00:02:11,985 really I really enjoyed, 51 00:02:12,604 --> 00:02:14,444 reading your book. It was it was a 52 00:02:14,444 --> 00:02:16,044 lot of fun. And and and I have 53 00:02:16,044 --> 00:02:17,564 to say, you know, there's a lot of 54 00:02:17,564 --> 00:02:18,064 really 55 00:02:18,830 --> 00:02:19,330 fascinating 56 00:02:19,790 --> 00:02:22,849 and, you know, dare I say, profound ideas 57 00:02:23,069 --> 00:02:24,449 in there about, 58 00:02:25,069 --> 00:02:27,710 I mean, maybe not so much about aliens, 59 00:02:27,710 --> 00:02:29,250 but more about how we 60 00:02:29,629 --> 00:02:30,770 perceive science, 61 00:02:32,064 --> 00:02:34,384 today, and, you know, what science was like 62 00:02:34,384 --> 00:02:36,305 in the past, and and what it could 63 00:02:36,305 --> 00:02:37,824 be in the future. So, 64 00:02:38,705 --> 00:02:39,205 yeah. 65 00:02:39,664 --> 00:02:41,344 Dear reader, if you think this is only 66 00:02:41,344 --> 00:02:44,544 about aliens, it's not. There's lots of, of 67 00:02:44,544 --> 00:02:46,324 of really interesting stuff about 68 00:02:46,740 --> 00:02:48,840 science and the philosophy of science. 69 00:02:49,300 --> 00:02:50,979 Well, you really put your finger on it 70 00:02:50,979 --> 00:02:53,219 actually because the book I originally wanted to 71 00:02:53,219 --> 00:02:54,199 write was, 72 00:02:54,659 --> 00:02:55,879 do we think about 73 00:02:56,259 --> 00:02:57,800 physics in a way that's universal 74 00:02:58,180 --> 00:03:00,120 or has our humanity somehow 75 00:03:00,645 --> 00:03:02,405 injected itself into our science in a way 76 00:03:02,405 --> 00:03:04,805 that's imperceptible to us? And I actually pitched 77 00:03:04,805 --> 00:03:07,205 that idea to my 14 year old, who's 78 00:03:07,205 --> 00:03:09,465 my Gage. And he was like, boring. 79 00:03:10,324 --> 00:03:12,564 And so instead I said, all right, what 80 00:03:12,564 --> 00:03:15,469 if it's a book about when aliens arrive, 81 00:03:15,689 --> 00:03:17,449 could we talk to them about science? And 82 00:03:17,449 --> 00:03:19,129 he was like, oh, that sounds like fun. 83 00:03:19,129 --> 00:03:21,209 And I thought, cool. It's actually the same 84 00:03:21,209 --> 00:03:23,530 book, but, you know, just in this sort 85 00:03:23,530 --> 00:03:24,590 of more concrete 86 00:03:25,129 --> 00:03:27,814 context where you're, like, faced with the task 87 00:03:27,814 --> 00:03:29,594 of communicating with your interstellar 88 00:03:30,215 --> 00:03:30,715 colleagues. 89 00:03:31,335 --> 00:03:33,014 But, yeah, in the end, I really just 90 00:03:33,014 --> 00:03:34,855 wanted to think and write about the nature 91 00:03:34,855 --> 00:03:36,694 of science and what we've learned and how 92 00:03:36,694 --> 00:03:38,155 much humanity is in it. 93 00:03:38,790 --> 00:03:41,750 Yeah. That I mean, that's definitely what I 94 00:03:41,750 --> 00:03:43,129 what I got out of it. 95 00:03:43,590 --> 00:03:45,930 And, yeah, I I I really did enjoy 96 00:03:46,229 --> 00:03:49,110 that sort of aspect of it. But let 97 00:03:49,110 --> 00:03:50,629 let let's go for the first, 98 00:03:51,030 --> 00:03:53,050 you know, the first sentence of the book. 99 00:03:53,465 --> 00:03:55,625 I think you begin the book, imagine the 100 00:03:55,625 --> 00:03:56,125 day 101 00:03:56,425 --> 00:03:57,245 the aliens 102 00:03:57,705 --> 00:03:58,284 arrive. And 103 00:03:59,145 --> 00:04:01,085 I'm just I'm just curious. 104 00:04:01,944 --> 00:04:02,685 Do you 105 00:04:03,465 --> 00:04:05,305 I mean, do you think that one day 106 00:04:05,305 --> 00:04:06,365 we will be 107 00:04:07,110 --> 00:04:08,169 visited by 108 00:04:08,550 --> 00:04:09,050 representatives 109 00:04:09,750 --> 00:04:10,730 of an alien 110 00:04:11,270 --> 00:04:13,510 civilization? Because, you know, you know, that's the 111 00:04:13,510 --> 00:04:15,510 whole premise of the book. Mhmm. But is 112 00:04:15,510 --> 00:04:17,689 that is that purely rhetorical? 113 00:04:18,149 --> 00:04:18,644 Or, 114 00:04:18,964 --> 00:04:20,884 you know, do you do you have an 115 00:04:20,884 --> 00:04:23,524 inkling or or a wish for that to 116 00:04:23,524 --> 00:04:24,024 happen? 117 00:04:24,644 --> 00:04:26,884 I certainly do have a wish. I mean, 118 00:04:26,884 --> 00:04:29,305 I've literally fantasized about that because 119 00:04:29,764 --> 00:04:32,410 it feels to me like we are slowly 120 00:04:32,470 --> 00:04:34,550 chipping away in the minds of truth trying 121 00:04:34,550 --> 00:04:37,029 to understand how the universe works. And we've 122 00:04:37,029 --> 00:04:38,709 been going at it for thousands of years, 123 00:04:38,709 --> 00:04:40,790 and we've made some progress, but we also 124 00:04:40,790 --> 00:04:43,189 have these hints that there's so much left 125 00:04:43,189 --> 00:04:46,254 to understand, you know, dark matter, dark energy, 126 00:04:46,254 --> 00:04:48,274 the expansion of the universe, cosmological 127 00:04:48,654 --> 00:04:49,154 questions. 128 00:04:49,774 --> 00:04:52,095 So it's frustrating to imagine that there could 129 00:04:52,095 --> 00:04:54,175 be aliens out there that have spent a 130 00:04:54,175 --> 00:04:56,574 billion years working on these projects. They could 131 00:04:56,574 --> 00:04:58,149 just have the answers. 132 00:04:58,689 --> 00:05:00,850 And the day they show up, if we 133 00:05:00,850 --> 00:05:02,770 are working on the same questions and if 134 00:05:02,770 --> 00:05:05,410 we can communicate, then they could leap us 135 00:05:05,410 --> 00:05:08,129 forward into our scientific future and just tell 136 00:05:08,129 --> 00:05:09,270 us these truths. 137 00:05:09,810 --> 00:05:11,810 Wow. What an amazing day that would be. 138 00:05:11,810 --> 00:05:12,345 I mean, 139 00:05:12,745 --> 00:05:14,985 it's like seeing the face of God, you 140 00:05:14,985 --> 00:05:17,384 know, or, you know, revealing the source code. 141 00:05:17,384 --> 00:05:19,725 Wow. That would be amazing. So I definitely 142 00:05:20,425 --> 00:05:22,925 wish that would happen and fantasize about it. 143 00:05:22,985 --> 00:05:24,904 Whether I think it's likely to happen, you 144 00:05:24,904 --> 00:05:25,350 know, that's 145 00:05:25,910 --> 00:05:26,410 nonscientific 146 00:05:26,870 --> 00:05:29,350 speculation, but, you know, there are many, many 147 00:05:29,350 --> 00:05:30,330 planets out there 148 00:05:30,709 --> 00:05:33,830 and around many, many stars, and the universe 149 00:05:33,830 --> 00:05:35,350 is quite old, so there's a lot of 150 00:05:35,350 --> 00:05:37,189 chances for it. On the other hand, you 151 00:05:37,189 --> 00:05:39,464 know, we haven't seen anybody yet. And, of 152 00:05:39,464 --> 00:05:41,785 course, there's the famous Fermi paradox about why 153 00:05:41,785 --> 00:05:44,444 that might be. And my suspicion 154 00:05:44,904 --> 00:05:45,645 is that, 155 00:05:46,264 --> 00:05:48,425 aliens will arrive in the future. It's just 156 00:05:48,425 --> 00:05:49,865 a question of time. You know, it's an 157 00:05:49,865 --> 00:05:52,444 issue of overlapping for long enough 158 00:05:52,824 --> 00:05:55,600 for somebody to develop the technology to explore 159 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:56,660 the galaxy. And 160 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,600 so I think it's important to sort of 161 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:00,819 mentally prepare ourselves. 162 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,040 What would it really be like when they 163 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:04,720 arrive? Are we ready for it? What work 164 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,480 do we need to do before they get 165 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,319 here to make sure we have a chance 166 00:06:08,319 --> 00:06:10,795 to leap forward into our scientific future? And 167 00:06:10,795 --> 00:06:12,768 it is, you know, it is interesting that 168 00:06:12,768 --> 00:06:14,415 over the last thirty years, 169 00:06:15,194 --> 00:06:17,855 you know, we went from knowing about zero 170 00:06:18,395 --> 00:06:18,895 exoplanets, 171 00:06:19,275 --> 00:06:22,714 that's planets that orbit stars other other than 172 00:06:22,714 --> 00:06:25,295 the sun. Now we know that there's thousands 173 00:06:25,675 --> 00:06:27,669 out there. Yeah. So, you know, in a 174 00:06:27,669 --> 00:06:28,169 sense, 175 00:06:29,589 --> 00:06:32,069 you know, maybe if you had asked me 176 00:06:32,069 --> 00:06:33,909 that question thirty years ago, I would have 177 00:06:33,909 --> 00:06:36,310 said no, maybe not. But now that I 178 00:06:36,310 --> 00:06:38,789 know about all these exoplanets and the fact 179 00:06:38,789 --> 00:06:41,745 that we're discovering more and more every day, 180 00:06:41,845 --> 00:06:44,764 it it it it sort of hits home, 181 00:06:44,764 --> 00:06:46,925 doesn't it? Quite literally that, 182 00:06:47,564 --> 00:06:50,365 that that it is a possibility. And I 183 00:06:50,365 --> 00:06:52,764 suppose that makes the Fermi paradox, you know, 184 00:06:52,764 --> 00:06:53,644 the idea that, 185 00:06:54,409 --> 00:06:56,810 if there are aliens out there, why why 186 00:06:56,810 --> 00:06:58,189 don't we know about them? 187 00:06:58,810 --> 00:07:01,769 Even more positive, isn't it? Yeah. It does. 188 00:07:01,769 --> 00:07:03,289 And I think you're right. We're living in 189 00:07:03,289 --> 00:07:05,930 a very exciting time to be thinking about 190 00:07:05,930 --> 00:07:06,990 these questions because 191 00:07:07,425 --> 00:07:09,504 for hundreds or thousands of years, we've known 192 00:07:09,504 --> 00:07:11,584 about, you know, fewer than 10 planets in 193 00:07:11,584 --> 00:07:13,845 the universe. Now we know 5,000. 194 00:07:14,144 --> 00:07:16,004 We're looking on 10,000 195 00:07:16,064 --> 00:07:16,564 soon. 196 00:07:16,944 --> 00:07:19,125 And I think in the next few decades, 197 00:07:19,185 --> 00:07:20,964 we're very likely to see, 198 00:07:21,310 --> 00:07:22,610 you know, undisputable 199 00:07:23,069 --> 00:07:25,410 hints of or or indisputable evidence 200 00:07:25,790 --> 00:07:27,329 of life around, 201 00:07:28,029 --> 00:07:31,229 other planets on around other stars. You know, 202 00:07:31,470 --> 00:07:34,029 not direct imaging or visitation yet, but, you 203 00:07:34,029 --> 00:07:34,850 know, biosignatures 204 00:07:35,229 --> 00:07:35,970 in atmospheres, 205 00:07:36,535 --> 00:07:38,615 we have the technology very soon to be 206 00:07:38,615 --> 00:07:40,555 able to do that. I think it's likely 207 00:07:40,615 --> 00:07:42,694 that will happen. And so we're living in 208 00:07:42,694 --> 00:07:45,814 a moment when our understanding of who else 209 00:07:45,814 --> 00:07:48,134 might be out there is really changing so 210 00:07:48,134 --> 00:07:50,400 rapidly. And so it's very difficult to predict 211 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,180 what we're gonna know in a hundred years. 212 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,680 But, you know, the situation I'm imagining requires 213 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,080 much more than knowing there are aliens around 214 00:07:58,080 --> 00:07:59,220 another star because 215 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,740 the difficulties of communicating with distant aliens 216 00:08:03,194 --> 00:08:05,354 are really enormous. I mean, I spoke to 217 00:08:05,354 --> 00:08:06,574 linguists and philosophers 218 00:08:07,194 --> 00:08:09,595 who think it might be literally impossible to 219 00:08:09,595 --> 00:08:11,134 decode an alien message 220 00:08:11,594 --> 00:08:13,995 without some sort of common context, you know, 221 00:08:13,995 --> 00:08:16,394 without them arriving here and us being able 222 00:08:16,394 --> 00:08:18,240 to, like, point at an apple and say 223 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,159 apple and point at two apples and say 224 00:08:20,159 --> 00:08:22,419 two apples and build up a dictionary. 225 00:08:22,879 --> 00:08:24,399 I think at a distance, it would be 226 00:08:24,399 --> 00:08:25,459 very, very difficult, 227 00:08:25,839 --> 00:08:26,740 maybe impossible, 228 00:08:27,199 --> 00:08:29,620 to actually figure out what they are saying. 229 00:08:29,914 --> 00:08:32,815 You know, this symbolic language is very frustrating 230 00:08:32,875 --> 00:08:33,615 and cultural. 231 00:08:34,075 --> 00:08:36,315 So that's why I imagined aliens arriving on 232 00:08:36,315 --> 00:08:38,394 Earth, because then we can maybe make some 233 00:08:38,394 --> 00:08:40,394 progress and figure out, you know, do we 234 00:08:40,394 --> 00:08:43,559 have mathematics in common? Can we begin and 235 00:08:43,639 --> 00:08:45,740 from that and build up into an actual 236 00:08:45,799 --> 00:08:47,019 linguistic communication? 237 00:08:48,279 --> 00:08:49,960 I wanted to ask you about, 238 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,639 the extended Drake equation, which is something that's 239 00:08:53,639 --> 00:08:54,139 central 240 00:08:54,735 --> 00:08:55,634 to your book. 241 00:08:56,014 --> 00:08:58,735 You know, it's I suppose it provides a 242 00:08:58,735 --> 00:08:59,235 scaffolding 243 00:08:59,695 --> 00:09:01,375 for Yeah. For you to hang a lot 244 00:09:01,375 --> 00:09:04,575 of of your ideas and analysis on. Now 245 00:09:04,575 --> 00:09:07,375 this extended Drake equation, is that something that 246 00:09:07,375 --> 00:09:09,375 you came up with, or you and Andy 247 00:09:09,375 --> 00:09:11,589 came up with? Because you you didn't come 248 00:09:11,589 --> 00:09:14,169 up with the Drake equation. That's that's existed 249 00:09:14,230 --> 00:09:17,029 for a while now. So is, I mean, 250 00:09:17,029 --> 00:09:19,029 may maybe I could ask you to very 251 00:09:19,029 --> 00:09:21,769 quickly explain what the Drake equation is, 252 00:09:22,149 --> 00:09:23,129 and then maybe 253 00:09:23,714 --> 00:09:24,454 the extended 254 00:09:24,754 --> 00:09:25,654 Drake equation. 255 00:09:26,115 --> 00:09:28,115 Yeah. Well, you already touched on the ideas 256 00:09:28,115 --> 00:09:29,954 quite quite well, I thought. You know, a 257 00:09:29,954 --> 00:09:31,095 lot of these questions, 258 00:09:31,875 --> 00:09:34,274 are there aliens out there that we communicate 259 00:09:34,274 --> 00:09:35,875 with? They have a lot of parts to 260 00:09:35,875 --> 00:09:38,309 them. And in order for it to work, 261 00:09:38,309 --> 00:09:40,070 in order for us to meet aliens or 262 00:09:40,070 --> 00:09:41,910 hear from aliens, you need a lot of 263 00:09:41,910 --> 00:09:43,690 things to all fall in place simultaneously. 264 00:09:44,149 --> 00:09:46,149 You need enough stars. You need enough planets. 265 00:09:46,149 --> 00:09:47,509 You need enough of those planets to have 266 00:09:47,509 --> 00:09:49,190 life. You need enough of those to become 267 00:09:49,190 --> 00:09:50,950 civilized. You need that all to happen at 268 00:09:50,950 --> 00:09:51,850 the same time. 269 00:09:52,174 --> 00:09:53,394 And the Drake equation 270 00:09:53,855 --> 00:09:56,194 does two things wonderfully. I think it breaks 271 00:09:56,495 --> 00:09:58,814 this big question into pieces that you can 272 00:09:58,814 --> 00:10:00,514 think about individually, like, 273 00:10:00,975 --> 00:10:02,814 what do we know about how many stars 274 00:10:02,814 --> 00:10:03,954 have planets, etc? 275 00:10:04,610 --> 00:10:07,490 And because it's multiplicative, it takes all of 276 00:10:07,490 --> 00:10:09,829 these factors and multiplies them by each other, 277 00:10:10,129 --> 00:10:10,870 it emphasizes 278 00:10:11,250 --> 00:10:12,929 that you need all of them. I mean, 279 00:10:12,929 --> 00:10:14,690 it doesn't matter how many stars there are 280 00:10:14,690 --> 00:10:17,024 and how many planets there are If the 281 00:10:17,024 --> 00:10:19,745 probability for life around a planet is one 282 00:10:19,745 --> 00:10:20,884 over 10, 283 00:10:21,264 --> 00:10:23,664 right, then the number is tiny. Or if 284 00:10:23,664 --> 00:10:25,345 we are if it's one over, you know, 285 00:10:25,345 --> 00:10:27,504 the number of planets in the universe because 286 00:10:27,504 --> 00:10:28,245 we're alone. 287 00:10:28,705 --> 00:10:31,930 Right? Any individual factor can kill you. So 288 00:10:31,930 --> 00:10:33,450 I was thinking about that when I was 289 00:10:33,450 --> 00:10:36,009 tackling this bigger question of not just are 290 00:10:36,009 --> 00:10:38,170 there aliens out there, but are there aliens 291 00:10:38,170 --> 00:10:40,090 out there that do science the way we 292 00:10:40,090 --> 00:10:42,889 do and decided to break it down in 293 00:10:42,889 --> 00:10:45,445 pieces? So the first piece we added to 294 00:10:45,445 --> 00:10:48,085 the Drake equation, because we're looking for something 295 00:10:48,085 --> 00:10:51,044 more specific than just aliens communicating, it's aliens 296 00:10:51,044 --> 00:10:53,125 who we can talk to about physics. The 297 00:10:53,125 --> 00:10:55,524 first piece was number one, do they even 298 00:10:55,524 --> 00:10:57,924 do science, right? Could there be aliens out 299 00:10:57,924 --> 00:11:00,050 there who are just, you know, slime on 300 00:11:00,050 --> 00:11:02,050 planets or even aliens out there who are 301 00:11:02,050 --> 00:11:02,550 technological 302 00:11:03,490 --> 00:11:04,710 but not scientific, 303 00:11:05,330 --> 00:11:07,810 who develop, you know, techniques to manipulate the 304 00:11:07,810 --> 00:11:10,610 universe without wondering why, without having that same 305 00:11:10,610 --> 00:11:12,825 human curiosity about how it works? 306 00:11:13,705 --> 00:11:15,625 And then the second piece was, can we 307 00:11:15,625 --> 00:11:17,705 communicate with them? Can we establish, like, a 308 00:11:17,705 --> 00:11:19,705 mental bridge so we know we're talking about 309 00:11:19,705 --> 00:11:22,024 the same stuff, and, you know, we could 310 00:11:22,024 --> 00:11:24,105 even get their answers, you know, even if 311 00:11:24,105 --> 00:11:26,184 they have some, like, deep understanding of quantum 312 00:11:26,184 --> 00:11:28,620 gravity, could they communicate it to us? 313 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,000 And the next piece we thought about was 314 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,639 what about their questions? Would they ask the 315 00:11:33,639 --> 00:11:36,540 same questions about the universe? Are our questions 316 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:37,980 human? Would they be curious 317 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,904 about different things? And then the last piece 318 00:11:40,904 --> 00:11:41,884 are the answers. 319 00:11:42,585 --> 00:11:45,225 In order to fulfill my fantasy where we 320 00:11:45,225 --> 00:11:47,545 sit down and learn about what's inside black 321 00:11:47,545 --> 00:11:49,384 holes and where the universe came from from 322 00:11:49,384 --> 00:11:50,684 these super advanced aliens, 323 00:11:51,144 --> 00:11:52,985 we also be have to be able to 324 00:11:52,985 --> 00:11:54,365 appreciate their answers. 325 00:11:54,820 --> 00:11:58,019 You know, I found when reading about the 326 00:11:58,019 --> 00:12:00,679 philosophy of science and how science has evolved, 327 00:12:01,299 --> 00:12:02,839 that there's a lot of subjectivity 328 00:12:03,220 --> 00:12:05,459 in the answers that we accept, what we 329 00:12:05,459 --> 00:12:06,279 find intuitive, 330 00:12:06,820 --> 00:12:08,259 you know, and then there's also the question 331 00:12:08,259 --> 00:12:10,394 of like, would we even be smart enough 332 00:12:10,475 --> 00:12:12,875 to answer to hear their answers and understand 333 00:12:12,875 --> 00:12:15,274 them? Wouldn't that be so frustrating to have 334 00:12:15,274 --> 00:12:17,375 aliens show up, have them be friendly, 335 00:12:17,754 --> 00:12:20,394 have them, you know, possess the knowledge of 336 00:12:20,394 --> 00:12:22,394 how the universe works that we've been desperately 337 00:12:22,394 --> 00:12:24,730 working towards and for us to just go, 338 00:12:24,730 --> 00:12:26,610 I don't get it. Right? I mean, what 339 00:12:26,610 --> 00:12:28,570 a sad trombone that would be the end 340 00:12:28,570 --> 00:12:30,490 of that story. But the so to answer 341 00:12:30,490 --> 00:12:32,330 your question about the extended Drake equation, this 342 00:12:32,330 --> 00:12:34,409 is a way to break up this very 343 00:12:34,409 --> 00:12:36,269 amorphous question into pieces 344 00:12:36,794 --> 00:12:38,794 and and tackle them one by one. And 345 00:12:38,794 --> 00:12:40,955 also to emphasize that for this fantasy to 346 00:12:40,955 --> 00:12:42,955 come true, we really need all those things 347 00:12:42,955 --> 00:12:44,634 to happen. They need to do science. We 348 00:12:44,634 --> 00:12:46,235 need to be able to communicate with them. 349 00:12:46,235 --> 00:12:48,475 We have to have questions and answers in 350 00:12:48,475 --> 00:12:50,870 common with them. I see. And I I 351 00:12:50,870 --> 00:12:52,950 wanted to start with the first one, which 352 00:12:52,950 --> 00:12:53,690 is science. 353 00:12:54,389 --> 00:12:54,790 And, 354 00:12:55,590 --> 00:12:56,090 so 355 00:12:56,470 --> 00:12:58,790 I think there in in the book, you're 356 00:12:58,790 --> 00:13:00,730 you're sort of making a a distinction 357 00:13:01,430 --> 00:13:03,610 between science and technology. 358 00:13:04,325 --> 00:13:07,065 And I think right to begin with, 359 00:13:07,605 --> 00:13:10,024 I suppose me with my physics background, 360 00:13:10,485 --> 00:13:12,725 that gets me scratching my head because I 361 00:13:12,725 --> 00:13:14,404 think, well, you know, how can you have 362 00:13:14,404 --> 00:13:14,904 science 363 00:13:15,524 --> 00:13:18,070 how can you have techno technology without science? 364 00:13:18,070 --> 00:13:19,289 How can you have science 365 00:13:20,230 --> 00:13:21,129 without technology? 366 00:13:21,509 --> 00:13:23,589 But then I thought because I was talking 367 00:13:23,589 --> 00:13:24,649 to somebody a 368 00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:27,129 few days ago about thermodynamics, 369 00:13:28,389 --> 00:13:30,250 and how, you know, thermodynamics 370 00:13:30,789 --> 00:13:32,649 came about in the nineteenth century, 371 00:13:33,054 --> 00:13:35,134 basically by people who wanted to make better 372 00:13:35,134 --> 00:13:37,875 steam engines and pumps and things like that. 373 00:13:37,934 --> 00:13:40,175 And so I thought, well, okay. Yeah. I 374 00:13:40,175 --> 00:13:41,394 can sort of understand 375 00:13:42,254 --> 00:13:43,554 in that situation 376 00:13:44,175 --> 00:13:45,235 that the technology 377 00:13:45,615 --> 00:13:46,115 led, 378 00:13:46,449 --> 00:13:47,829 and maybe the science 379 00:13:48,209 --> 00:13:49,110 came later. 380 00:13:49,649 --> 00:13:51,570 But are are you saying that it it 381 00:13:51,570 --> 00:13:53,429 could be that there are civilizations 382 00:13:53,809 --> 00:13:54,709 out there where 383 00:13:55,490 --> 00:13:57,990 there's only technology and no science? 384 00:13:58,449 --> 00:14:00,004 I'm, you know, 385 00:14:00,545 --> 00:14:02,705 I'm struggling with that, but I suppose your 386 00:14:02,705 --> 00:14:04,945 point is that that could exist and that 387 00:14:04,945 --> 00:14:07,764 could make it very difficult for us to 388 00:14:07,825 --> 00:14:08,325 to 389 00:14:09,264 --> 00:14:09,845 to understand, 390 00:14:11,105 --> 00:14:12,004 such a civilization. 391 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:14,559 Yeah. You put your finger on it again. 392 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,399 I mean, the whole exercise of the book 393 00:14:16,399 --> 00:14:19,919 is let's investigate our assumptions. It's very natural 394 00:14:19,919 --> 00:14:22,000 for us to think, well, science is the 395 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:23,379 engine for discovering 396 00:14:23,839 --> 00:14:25,860 the way the world works, which technology 397 00:14:26,319 --> 00:14:28,754 requires. Right? But that's the way we've done 398 00:14:28,754 --> 00:14:31,154 it. That's the way our civilization works. That 399 00:14:31,154 --> 00:14:32,995 doesn't mean it's the only possible way, and 400 00:14:32,995 --> 00:14:35,174 the book is basically an exercise in, like, 401 00:14:35,714 --> 00:14:38,274 let's think about if we can imagine another 402 00:14:38,274 --> 00:14:40,595 way. That doesn't mean that we're arguing it's 403 00:14:40,595 --> 00:14:42,115 the best way or it's the only way, 404 00:14:42,115 --> 00:14:44,200 but, like, let's explore the edges of the 405 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:45,980 sandbox and question our assumptions. 406 00:14:46,759 --> 00:14:48,600 And we can't do that, of course, by 407 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,600 visiting aliens yet. But what we can do 408 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,600 is look back at the history of our 409 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,080 development and think about whether things could have 410 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,365 been different. And right away, when you look 411 00:14:57,365 --> 00:14:59,684 back into our history, as you say, we've 412 00:14:59,684 --> 00:15:02,165 been technological a lot longer than we've been 413 00:15:02,165 --> 00:15:05,065 scientific. You know, people have been making incredible 414 00:15:05,365 --> 00:15:05,865 swords, 415 00:15:06,644 --> 00:15:09,045 improving on the technology to be sharp and 416 00:15:09,045 --> 00:15:10,689 hard without understanding what's going on at the 417 00:15:10,689 --> 00:15:10,760 microscopic level and the solid state physics. You 418 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:11,545 know, and there's lots of things that 419 00:15:16,779 --> 00:15:18,299 universe today, technology that we have that we 420 00:15:18,299 --> 00:15:21,019 don't fully understand. You know? Nobody knows how 421 00:15:21,019 --> 00:15:23,039 Tylenol works. Right? Like, 422 00:15:23,340 --> 00:15:24,080 it's amazing. 423 00:15:24,965 --> 00:15:28,085 But we can develop technologies without understanding them. 424 00:15:28,085 --> 00:15:30,085 The crucial thing, of course, is we want 425 00:15:30,085 --> 00:15:32,825 to understand them. We have this innate curiosity. 426 00:15:33,045 --> 00:15:36,004 To us, it's satisfying to know why. And, 427 00:15:36,004 --> 00:15:39,259 of course, understanding it, building a mental model 428 00:15:39,259 --> 00:15:41,339 of how it works lets you accelerate that 429 00:15:41,339 --> 00:15:41,839 development. 430 00:15:42,299 --> 00:15:43,820 But, you know, as I said, for a 431 00:15:43,820 --> 00:15:46,139 long time, we were technological before we were 432 00:15:46,139 --> 00:15:48,379 scientific. And so I thought about, you know, 433 00:15:48,379 --> 00:15:50,379 is it possible to have a species that 434 00:15:50,379 --> 00:15:51,360 is just technological? 435 00:15:52,294 --> 00:15:53,654 And one thing we did in the book, 436 00:15:53,654 --> 00:15:55,115 which I had a lot of fun with, 437 00:15:55,174 --> 00:15:57,894 was come up with these hypothetical case studies 438 00:15:57,894 --> 00:16:00,454 rather than just thinking about it abstractly. Is 439 00:16:00,454 --> 00:16:02,694 it possible? I sat down to write these 440 00:16:02,694 --> 00:16:05,095 little fictional narratives, you know, a couple of 441 00:16:05,095 --> 00:16:05,595 pages 442 00:16:05,919 --> 00:16:07,299 to imagine a scenario 443 00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:09,759 which bends our assumptions. And so in this 444 00:16:09,759 --> 00:16:12,480 case, I thought about how a civilization might 445 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:13,379 actually develop 446 00:16:13,759 --> 00:16:14,419 an understanding 447 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:16,100 of general relativity 448 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,115 and the way space works is an intuitive 449 00:16:19,174 --> 00:16:20,855 way, in a way that they just use 450 00:16:20,855 --> 00:16:23,674 it and become familiar with it, and eventually 451 00:16:23,735 --> 00:16:25,274 use it to travel the galaxy 452 00:16:25,654 --> 00:16:27,754 so that they could even show up here 453 00:16:27,975 --> 00:16:28,794 with effectively 454 00:16:29,095 --> 00:16:31,035 wormhole or warp drive technology. 455 00:16:31,495 --> 00:16:32,934 And we ask them, hey, how does that 456 00:16:32,934 --> 00:16:34,639 work? And they're like, well, I can show 457 00:16:34,639 --> 00:16:36,320 you how to do it. What do you 458 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,100 mean? How does it work? You know? 459 00:16:38,639 --> 00:16:39,940 They might be technological 460 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,720 without being curious. It might be enough for 461 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,399 them to be like, well, here's how you 462 00:16:44,399 --> 00:16:46,959 do it. You surf the curvature of space 463 00:16:46,959 --> 00:16:47,459 time. 464 00:16:48,654 --> 00:16:50,414 I'm not saying that's more likely, and of 465 00:16:50,414 --> 00:16:52,095 course I'm not saying that we don't need 466 00:16:52,095 --> 00:16:53,475 science to develop technology, 467 00:16:54,014 --> 00:16:55,294 but, you know, if you have a lot 468 00:16:55,294 --> 00:16:56,514 of time and incredible 469 00:16:56,815 --> 00:16:58,975 variety in the universe, you might get all 470 00:16:58,975 --> 00:17:01,259 sorts of weird aliens, and we should be 471 00:17:01,259 --> 00:17:03,899 prepared for aliens who show up and don't 472 00:17:03,899 --> 00:17:06,539 understand why we want to ask why about 473 00:17:06,539 --> 00:17:07,200 the universe, 474 00:17:07,500 --> 00:17:09,759 why it's not enough for us to just 475 00:17:09,819 --> 00:17:11,579 do it and to use it, you know, 476 00:17:11,579 --> 00:17:14,424 to wonder how those swords work and why 477 00:17:14,424 --> 00:17:16,984 yeast ferments and how Tylenol works and all 478 00:17:16,984 --> 00:17:18,904 these things. So a lot of this book 479 00:17:18,904 --> 00:17:20,664 is about asking how much we have in 480 00:17:20,664 --> 00:17:23,644 common with aliens. And this part, this curiosity, 481 00:17:23,945 --> 00:17:25,325 this desire to understand, 482 00:17:25,705 --> 00:17:28,424 boy, that's, you know, subjective. It feels very 483 00:17:28,424 --> 00:17:28,924 cultural. 484 00:17:29,609 --> 00:17:31,049 And, you know, also, if you if you 485 00:17:31,049 --> 00:17:32,910 look back at just the history of science, 486 00:17:33,210 --> 00:17:36,269 people have this conception that science came together 487 00:17:36,329 --> 00:17:37,069 as empiricism 488 00:17:37,450 --> 00:17:40,029 on top of, you know, just platonic thinking. 489 00:17:40,089 --> 00:17:42,410 A few hundred years ago when Galileo and 490 00:17:42,410 --> 00:17:45,174 Bacon, you know, were inspired to do experiments 491 00:17:45,234 --> 00:17:47,894 and to actually, you know, confront ideas, 492 00:17:48,355 --> 00:17:49,414 with with data. 493 00:17:49,795 --> 00:17:51,394 But the truth is a little bit more 494 00:17:51,394 --> 00:17:53,234 subtle than that. You know, science is a 495 00:17:53,234 --> 00:17:55,634 process that's been evolving for a long time. 496 00:17:55,634 --> 00:17:58,069 The Greeks did some experiments and, you know, 497 00:17:58,069 --> 00:17:59,930 the Arab scholars did experiments, 498 00:18:00,309 --> 00:18:02,950 and the Chinese did experiments. And so it's 499 00:18:02,950 --> 00:18:04,869 not just like a eureka moment where we 500 00:18:04,869 --> 00:18:06,869 develop science itself, and now we have this 501 00:18:06,869 --> 00:18:09,529 process which is fixed. It's growing and evolving. 502 00:18:10,325 --> 00:18:10,825 It's 503 00:18:11,445 --> 00:18:13,365 it's, hard to imagine that in a thousand 504 00:18:13,365 --> 00:18:16,005 years, our own conception of the process of 505 00:18:16,005 --> 00:18:18,244 science would be exactly the same. Probably it's 506 00:18:18,244 --> 00:18:20,105 going to keep changing. And so 507 00:18:20,404 --> 00:18:22,085 when aliens show up, if they've been doing 508 00:18:22,085 --> 00:18:24,460 this for a billion years, they may either 509 00:18:24,460 --> 00:18:26,140 have no idea what science is and not 510 00:18:26,140 --> 00:18:28,079 care about it, or they could have some 511 00:18:28,140 --> 00:18:30,619 super far in the future developed version of 512 00:18:30,619 --> 00:18:32,940 science as a process. And they look back 513 00:18:32,940 --> 00:18:34,619 on our science, they're like, y'all are kind 514 00:18:34,619 --> 00:18:37,045 of primitive. Like, how come you didn't consider 515 00:18:37,345 --> 00:18:39,904 this other way to develop knowledge about the 516 00:18:39,904 --> 00:18:40,404 universe? 517 00:18:41,105 --> 00:18:43,424 And so the first chapter is just to, 518 00:18:43,424 --> 00:18:45,424 like, get you warmed up to think about 519 00:18:45,424 --> 00:18:47,904 how aliens could really approach a lot of 520 00:18:47,904 --> 00:18:50,964 these questions of science and technology very differently 521 00:18:51,169 --> 00:18:52,069 than we might. 522 00:18:52,529 --> 00:18:52,929 And, 523 00:18:53,329 --> 00:18:55,650 so moving on to communication, I mean, I 524 00:18:55,650 --> 00:18:56,869 suppose there again, 525 00:18:57,970 --> 00:18:59,669 you, you know, you've got, 526 00:19:01,089 --> 00:19:03,089 I suppose different ways. I've you know, I 527 00:19:03,089 --> 00:19:05,785 think in the book you point out very 528 00:19:05,785 --> 00:19:08,205 nicely that humans have used, 529 00:19:08,664 --> 00:19:10,825 you know, sort of a wide range of 530 00:19:10,825 --> 00:19:13,724 of, well, languages and and ways of writing 531 00:19:14,345 --> 00:19:16,045 that, you know, even, 532 00:19:17,799 --> 00:19:19,880 I suppose the classic example that you give 533 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:21,099 are the Egyptian 534 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:21,980 hieroglyphics 535 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:23,400 where, 536 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,960 you know, for a very long time, I 537 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:27,420 think thousands of years, 538 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,580 scholars were trying to interpret them 539 00:19:32,125 --> 00:19:33,345 in the wrong way. 540 00:19:34,365 --> 00:19:35,265 You know, sort 541 00:19:35,724 --> 00:19:37,984 of weirdly sort of thinking that the Egyptians 542 00:19:39,085 --> 00:19:42,525 didn't communicate like we did. Obviously, it was 543 00:19:42,525 --> 00:19:46,204 something completely different and and and completely missing 544 00:19:46,204 --> 00:19:47,490 the point until the, 545 00:19:47,890 --> 00:19:49,589 I suppose, the Rosetta Stone 546 00:19:50,049 --> 00:19:53,109 turned up and, and set people straight. 547 00:19:53,490 --> 00:19:53,990 So, 548 00:19:54,450 --> 00:19:57,250 I mean, one sort of idea that I 549 00:19:57,250 --> 00:19:58,230 think you introduce 550 00:19:58,529 --> 00:19:59,029 is 551 00:19:59,809 --> 00:20:01,109 the question of 552 00:20:01,650 --> 00:20:02,150 whether 553 00:20:02,775 --> 00:20:03,275 physics 554 00:20:03,575 --> 00:20:04,955 or maybe mathematics 555 00:20:05,414 --> 00:20:06,154 or maybe 556 00:20:06,775 --> 00:20:07,755 computer science 557 00:20:08,375 --> 00:20:08,875 could 558 00:20:09,335 --> 00:20:10,315 form the basis 559 00:20:11,095 --> 00:20:13,355 of, I don't know, a universal 560 00:20:14,215 --> 00:20:15,755 language or a universal 561 00:20:16,710 --> 00:20:19,609 translator that Mhmm. Could we could go from 562 00:20:19,990 --> 00:20:21,210 our way of communicating 563 00:20:22,230 --> 00:20:24,809 into, let's say, physics and then 564 00:20:25,349 --> 00:20:26,410 out to, 565 00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:28,569 the alien 566 00:20:29,029 --> 00:20:31,855 way of communicating. Is that can can you 567 00:20:31,855 --> 00:20:33,375 talk a bit about that? Because I found 568 00:20:33,375 --> 00:20:36,575 that really fascinating. And it sort of made 569 00:20:36,575 --> 00:20:37,554 sense to me 570 00:20:38,174 --> 00:20:38,674 when 571 00:20:38,974 --> 00:20:40,974 when I I sort of gave up some 572 00:20:40,974 --> 00:20:42,595 of your ideas about how 573 00:20:42,894 --> 00:20:45,390 maybe physics is very different. And, 574 00:20:46,589 --> 00:20:47,570 but yeah, 575 00:20:47,950 --> 00:20:49,009 I thought it was 576 00:20:49,470 --> 00:20:51,950 a very interesting concept. Can you talk about 577 00:20:51,950 --> 00:20:52,849 that a bit? 578 00:20:53,230 --> 00:20:55,329 Yeah, I think a lot of people imagine 579 00:20:55,789 --> 00:20:58,509 that, you know, when aliens arrive, obviously they 580 00:20:58,509 --> 00:21:00,289 won't speak English. That'd be ridiculous. 581 00:21:01,475 --> 00:21:03,394 And they might use some weird sort of, 582 00:21:04,115 --> 00:21:07,154 language or communicate with their senses, with their 583 00:21:07,154 --> 00:21:09,335 sense or with colors or whatever. 584 00:21:09,715 --> 00:21:11,015 But that at the foundation, 585 00:21:11,315 --> 00:21:14,099 we have math and physics in common. And, 586 00:21:14,099 --> 00:21:16,179 you know, Carl Sagan has a famous quotation 587 00:21:16,179 --> 00:21:18,980 about this, and he designed the pioneer plaque, 588 00:21:18,980 --> 00:21:22,200 which describes some basics of, you know, hydrogen 589 00:21:22,339 --> 00:21:25,220 and our representation of the solar system. And 590 00:21:25,220 --> 00:21:28,019 it's all, you know, pictograms. It's obviously not 591 00:21:28,019 --> 00:21:30,085 using words. And I think, you know, the 592 00:21:30,085 --> 00:21:30,585 inspiration 593 00:21:30,884 --> 00:21:32,884 is, is, is right there. It's a way 594 00:21:32,884 --> 00:21:35,365 of saying, like, let's try to describe some 595 00:21:35,365 --> 00:21:37,525 core basic concepts that maybe we have in 596 00:21:37,525 --> 00:21:38,025 common. 597 00:21:38,404 --> 00:21:39,924 But, you know, in the end, all of 598 00:21:39,924 --> 00:21:41,224 these things are symbols. 599 00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:44,019 All of our attempts to transmit an idea 600 00:21:44,019 --> 00:21:45,859 from one brain to the other have to 601 00:21:45,859 --> 00:21:47,079 pass through this 602 00:21:47,380 --> 00:21:49,480 symbolic representation where we 603 00:21:49,859 --> 00:21:52,419 scratch images onto a surface and pass them 604 00:21:52,419 --> 00:21:54,259 to somebody or encode them in data and 605 00:21:54,259 --> 00:21:56,884 pass them pass them on. And that encoding, 606 00:21:57,184 --> 00:21:59,984 that translation into symbols is totally arbitrary. You 607 00:21:59,984 --> 00:22:02,065 could pick any symbols you want. And so 608 00:22:02,065 --> 00:22:03,904 to imagine that aliens are gonna, like, look 609 00:22:03,904 --> 00:22:05,904 at the pioneer flag and go, oh, yeah. 610 00:22:05,904 --> 00:22:08,144 I can tell you met hydrogen atom. And, 611 00:22:08,144 --> 00:22:09,585 oh, yeah. I see what you mean. This 612 00:22:09,585 --> 00:22:10,565 must be a pulsar. 613 00:22:11,130 --> 00:22:14,029 It's hopeful, but a little bit naive maybe. 614 00:22:14,570 --> 00:22:16,890 And so I was thinking, you know, what 615 00:22:16,890 --> 00:22:19,289 could we rely on? What way could we 616 00:22:19,289 --> 00:22:22,430 use to try to establish connections with aliens? 617 00:22:22,970 --> 00:22:24,990 And so I actually called up Noam Chomsky 618 00:22:25,434 --> 00:22:27,914 because he famously answers his emails and asked 619 00:22:27,914 --> 00:22:29,775 him. I thought, you know, who else better 620 00:22:29,835 --> 00:22:30,654 to ask about 621 00:22:31,035 --> 00:22:31,535 communicating, 622 00:22:32,075 --> 00:22:34,234 with aliens and the foundations of language? That's 623 00:22:34,234 --> 00:22:35,535 the the famous linguist, 624 00:22:35,835 --> 00:22:37,295 Noam Chomsky. Yeah. 625 00:22:37,890 --> 00:22:40,130 And, you know, he said we should begin 626 00:22:40,130 --> 00:22:42,450 with arithmetic. He said arithmetic is very likely 627 00:22:42,450 --> 00:22:44,210 to be something we have in common. And 628 00:22:44,210 --> 00:22:45,970 he had a reasonable argument for that. You 629 00:22:45,970 --> 00:22:46,789 know, he imagined, 630 00:22:47,490 --> 00:22:49,750 that aliens probably count themselves. 631 00:22:50,049 --> 00:22:51,349 You know, they are individuals. 632 00:22:51,730 --> 00:22:54,204 And so there's one alien, two aliens, they 633 00:22:54,204 --> 00:22:56,444 learn, you know, counting. And from that you 634 00:22:56,444 --> 00:22:57,744 build arithmetic and, 635 00:22:58,525 --> 00:23:01,105 he and Marvin Minsky together have this argument 636 00:23:01,164 --> 00:23:03,904 about how from arithmetic, you can build up 637 00:23:03,964 --> 00:23:05,505 essentially all of language 638 00:23:06,039 --> 00:23:08,119 that from arithmetic, you get all of math 639 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,519 because we've learned the last few hundred years 640 00:23:10,519 --> 00:23:11,019 that 641 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,799 all of math rests on arithmetic, which is 642 00:23:13,799 --> 00:23:16,599 based on these PNO axioms, which are the 643 00:23:16,599 --> 00:23:18,059 foundation of all of mathematics. 644 00:23:18,474 --> 00:23:20,315 And so basically once you have arithmetic, you 645 00:23:20,315 --> 00:23:22,394 can build up all of math. So imagine 646 00:23:22,394 --> 00:23:24,474 a scenario where aliens show up and we 647 00:23:24,474 --> 00:23:27,034 establish one and two and one plus one 648 00:23:27,034 --> 00:23:28,335 equals two etc etc 649 00:23:28,714 --> 00:23:30,794 and from there we can build, most of 650 00:23:30,794 --> 00:23:34,075 mathematics and from there we can communicate perhaps 651 00:23:34,075 --> 00:23:36,710 in the language of computers writing programs 652 00:23:37,490 --> 00:23:37,990 essentially 653 00:23:38,289 --> 00:23:41,250 as Turing machines. Turing machines are the simplest 654 00:23:41,250 --> 00:23:43,029 possible computer that you could build. 655 00:23:43,410 --> 00:23:44,850 Not that you have to build them in 656 00:23:44,850 --> 00:23:47,230 this silly way with tapes and and and 657 00:23:47,230 --> 00:23:49,755 and rulers etcetera, but just as an argument 658 00:23:49,755 --> 00:23:51,295 for what computers can do. 659 00:23:51,755 --> 00:23:54,075 That from arithmetic, you can get to mathematics, 660 00:23:54,075 --> 00:23:55,434 and then you can get to algorithms, and 661 00:23:55,434 --> 00:23:57,595 then you can use algorithms as the foundation 662 00:23:57,595 --> 00:23:59,595 of a way to communicate with an alien 663 00:23:59,595 --> 00:24:02,715 species. You know, essentially moving information around, writing 664 00:24:02,715 --> 00:24:04,174 a program to do something 665 00:24:04,570 --> 00:24:06,090 as a way to communicate this is what 666 00:24:06,090 --> 00:24:07,769 we want or this is how we do 667 00:24:07,769 --> 00:24:08,509 this calculation. 668 00:24:09,849 --> 00:24:12,009 And that's very attractive, but still at the 669 00:24:12,009 --> 00:24:13,230 foundation of it 670 00:24:13,529 --> 00:24:15,450 are some assumptions. You know, how do we 671 00:24:15,450 --> 00:24:16,430 know that aliens 672 00:24:17,315 --> 00:24:18,214 have individuals 673 00:24:18,515 --> 00:24:20,994 that they count? What about aliens that are 674 00:24:20,994 --> 00:24:23,875 like beings in the atmosphere of a star 675 00:24:23,875 --> 00:24:25,954 and they're made of plasma and the edges 676 00:24:25,954 --> 00:24:28,375 of their bodies are not so crisp? 677 00:24:29,250 --> 00:24:30,690 If you dig into it, it's not even 678 00:24:30,690 --> 00:24:32,849 easy to understand where is the edge of 679 00:24:32,849 --> 00:24:34,769 me. I mean, you have this concept of 680 00:24:34,769 --> 00:24:36,529 yourself as an individual and you and I 681 00:24:36,529 --> 00:24:38,289 are different people. But, you know, if we're 682 00:24:38,289 --> 00:24:40,450 in the same room, where exactly would we 683 00:24:40,450 --> 00:24:42,230 draw the line and say, this is Daniel, 684 00:24:42,369 --> 00:24:44,125 this is not Daniel. Is it at the 685 00:24:44,125 --> 00:24:45,724 edge of my skin? Is it the little 686 00:24:45,724 --> 00:24:48,224 hairs that perturb? Is it my personal space? 687 00:24:48,444 --> 00:24:51,164 Very quickly, you find the philosophy there is 688 00:24:51,164 --> 00:24:53,025 somewhat cultural and arbitrary. 689 00:24:53,484 --> 00:24:55,005 And if we had a different kind of 690 00:24:55,005 --> 00:24:55,505 body, 691 00:24:55,884 --> 00:24:58,544 ones that were more flowy and less less 692 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,480 crisp, we might never come up with the 693 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,960 concept of integers. You know, it might all 694 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:03,460 be, 695 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,480 real numbers. And so start trying to start 696 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,720 with one and, and one and two might 697 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,900 get us off in on the wrong foot. 698 00:25:11,255 --> 00:25:13,835 So everywhere you go, there are these philosophical 699 00:25:14,295 --> 00:25:17,434 assumptions we're making, these cultural assumptions we're making 700 00:25:17,495 --> 00:25:19,815 about how to communicate and what's really at 701 00:25:19,815 --> 00:25:20,475 the foundation. 702 00:25:21,255 --> 00:25:22,455 But it's a lot of fun to dig 703 00:25:22,455 --> 00:25:24,375 into these things and to wonder about various 704 00:25:24,375 --> 00:25:24,875 scenarios 705 00:25:25,190 --> 00:25:27,289 where aliens might arrive and and the difficulties 706 00:25:27,509 --> 00:25:29,750 we might face with communicating with them. Yeah. 707 00:25:29,750 --> 00:25:31,670 Because one one thing that, you know, I 708 00:25:31,670 --> 00:25:33,829 I thought, you know, from the point of 709 00:25:33,829 --> 00:25:35,829 view of physics is I I I think 710 00:25:35,829 --> 00:25:37,670 you allude to this in the book somewhere 711 00:25:37,670 --> 00:25:38,025 about, 712 00:25:39,545 --> 00:25:40,765 an alien civilization 713 00:25:42,025 --> 00:25:42,525 seeing, 714 00:25:42,825 --> 00:25:44,525 you know, the Earth as a 715 00:25:44,825 --> 00:25:46,664 as a system in the same way that 716 00:25:46,664 --> 00:25:48,424 we would see, I don't know, the electrons 717 00:25:48,424 --> 00:25:49,244 in a semiconductor 718 00:25:49,785 --> 00:25:51,005 Mhmm. As a system. 719 00:25:51,384 --> 00:25:53,325 And so, you know, 720 00:25:53,990 --> 00:25:55,289 humans would be, 721 00:25:56,070 --> 00:25:58,309 well, I suppose from our point of view 722 00:25:58,309 --> 00:25:59,930 would be sort of an an emergent 723 00:26:00,390 --> 00:26:00,890 phenomenon 724 00:26:01,430 --> 00:26:01,930 within 725 00:26:02,390 --> 00:26:03,289 that system. 726 00:26:03,830 --> 00:26:05,690 And, you know, would they necessarily 727 00:26:06,230 --> 00:26:06,914 see us 728 00:26:07,315 --> 00:26:08,535 or perceive us 729 00:26:09,154 --> 00:26:10,615 as individuals, or 730 00:26:10,994 --> 00:26:12,914 would, you know, would they be you know, 731 00:26:12,914 --> 00:26:15,335 would would we be sort of like quasi 732 00:26:15,394 --> 00:26:16,615 particles to them? 733 00:26:17,394 --> 00:26:19,955 You know, things that that that sort of 734 00:26:19,955 --> 00:26:20,934 exist, but 735 00:26:21,690 --> 00:26:22,190 really 736 00:26:22,809 --> 00:26:23,869 are are completely 737 00:26:24,490 --> 00:26:25,470 dependent on 738 00:26:25,849 --> 00:26:28,190 the environment, which I suppose we are, 739 00:26:29,049 --> 00:26:30,649 you know, to a certain extent. We are 740 00:26:30,649 --> 00:26:31,710 quasi particles 741 00:26:32,490 --> 00:26:35,375 within Earth because we we couldn't exist, you 742 00:26:35,375 --> 00:26:36,815 know, in the same way that, 743 00:26:37,455 --> 00:26:40,654 I don't know, phonon doesn't exist in, in 744 00:26:40,654 --> 00:26:43,215 a vacuum. We wouldn't exist in space for 745 00:26:43,215 --> 00:26:45,475 very long. It you know, I 746 00:26:46,414 --> 00:26:48,494 I I suppose those were the the sort 747 00:26:48,494 --> 00:26:49,154 of thoughts 748 00:26:49,619 --> 00:26:51,299 that I was having when I read the 749 00:26:51,299 --> 00:26:51,799 book. 750 00:26:52,740 --> 00:26:55,059 And, you know, I I, you know, it 751 00:26:55,059 --> 00:26:56,019 was real it was 752 00:26:56,500 --> 00:26:58,200 I suppose it just made me think 753 00:26:58,579 --> 00:27:00,359 in a in a very different way, 754 00:27:01,220 --> 00:27:03,319 about what it means to be human. 755 00:27:03,974 --> 00:27:06,454 Yeah. That was something that I didn't expect 756 00:27:06,454 --> 00:27:08,154 to get from the book, I suppose. 757 00:27:09,015 --> 00:27:10,855 Yeah. Well, this is a really fun topic 758 00:27:10,855 --> 00:27:13,434 and and one that's so fascinating and mysterious. 759 00:27:13,494 --> 00:27:16,474 This question of, you know, why things emerge. 760 00:27:16,890 --> 00:27:18,490 You know, as you say, we are emergent 761 00:27:18,490 --> 00:27:20,570 phenomena. We're not fundamental to the universe. There 762 00:27:20,570 --> 00:27:22,089 was a time before there were humans. There 763 00:27:22,089 --> 00:27:23,450 may be a time after there were humans. 764 00:27:23,450 --> 00:27:26,509 We're not necessary. We're like this special combination 765 00:27:26,570 --> 00:27:27,230 of particles 766 00:27:27,529 --> 00:27:29,130 that do this thing when they're all together. 767 00:27:29,130 --> 00:27:31,450 It's like ice cream or kittens. Right? It's 768 00:27:31,450 --> 00:27:31,785 not, 769 00:27:32,744 --> 00:27:35,545 fundamental fields or strings or whatever, and that's 770 00:27:35,545 --> 00:27:38,105 obvious. But the thing that's fascinating is that 771 00:27:38,105 --> 00:27:40,585 you can sort of zoom out from the 772 00:27:40,585 --> 00:27:43,465 microscopic details of the universe and think about 773 00:27:43,465 --> 00:27:46,119 people and build from that an understanding of 774 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,140 society and psychology and economics, 775 00:27:48,519 --> 00:27:50,279 the way you can, like, zoom out from 776 00:27:50,279 --> 00:27:52,359 particle physics and do chemistry and think about 777 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,539 atoms. Even though atoms are not the fundamental 778 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,835 building block of the universe, it's possible to 779 00:27:56,835 --> 00:28:00,855 tell fairly simple, fairly understandable stories about chemistry 780 00:28:00,914 --> 00:28:02,595 or to zoom out to biology and think 781 00:28:02,595 --> 00:28:05,554 about ecosystems. And it's amazing to me that 782 00:28:05,554 --> 00:28:06,294 the universe 783 00:28:06,835 --> 00:28:07,815 is understandable 784 00:28:08,115 --> 00:28:10,375 at all these different levels of zoom. 785 00:28:10,789 --> 00:28:12,630 It's not obvious to me why that even 786 00:28:12,630 --> 00:28:15,509 is, you know, why can you make chicken 787 00:28:15,509 --> 00:28:19,049 soup or understand humans without knowing quantum gravity? 788 00:28:19,509 --> 00:28:21,109 You know, I can imagine a universe where 789 00:28:21,109 --> 00:28:23,204 that's not possible at all, where everything is 790 00:28:23,524 --> 00:28:26,484 just chaotic from the fundamental level and nothing 791 00:28:26,484 --> 00:28:27,464 simple emerges. 792 00:28:28,005 --> 00:28:31,625 And because we don't know why simplicity emerges 793 00:28:31,684 --> 00:28:33,304 and why at these levels, 794 00:28:33,684 --> 00:28:34,984 then we can't be sure 795 00:28:35,619 --> 00:28:37,940 that it is emerging, that it's a property 796 00:28:37,940 --> 00:28:40,579 of the universe. It's not some bias that 797 00:28:40,579 --> 00:28:43,220 we have where we're seeing it in some 798 00:28:43,220 --> 00:28:45,779 way because that's what's important to us. You 799 00:28:45,779 --> 00:28:48,579 know, the famous experiment where you watch a 800 00:28:48,579 --> 00:28:50,579 video of a basketball game and they tell 801 00:28:50,579 --> 00:28:52,664 you to count the number of passes and 802 00:28:52,664 --> 00:28:54,184 you don't notice that there's like an ape 803 00:28:54,184 --> 00:28:55,944 walking through the background. And Right. Yeah. What 804 00:28:55,944 --> 00:28:58,025 you perceive and what you see and what 805 00:28:58,025 --> 00:29:00,025 you ask questions about in the universe depends 806 00:29:00,025 --> 00:29:02,105 very much on what you're interested in and 807 00:29:02,105 --> 00:29:03,565 what's important to you. 808 00:29:04,025 --> 00:29:06,430 And so it may be that our, you 809 00:29:06,430 --> 00:29:07,950 know, the fact that we grew up on 810 00:29:07,950 --> 00:29:09,250 a planet, for example, 811 00:29:09,630 --> 00:29:12,509 makes us preordained to think about planets and 812 00:29:12,509 --> 00:29:14,430 to think planets are really important in the 813 00:29:14,430 --> 00:29:14,930 universe. 814 00:29:15,630 --> 00:29:18,349 And maybe that's not. Maybe planets are trivial 815 00:29:18,349 --> 00:29:21,174 and not interesting and other aliens could think 816 00:29:21,174 --> 00:29:23,434 about the universe in terms of different foundations. 817 00:29:24,295 --> 00:29:25,734 So if you look at the way we 818 00:29:25,734 --> 00:29:27,994 represent the solar system, for example, 819 00:29:28,375 --> 00:29:30,775 planets are, like, always out of scale. We, 820 00:29:30,775 --> 00:29:33,035 like, zoom them out way out of scale, 821 00:29:33,369 --> 00:29:34,890 And we don't even have, like, a good 822 00:29:34,890 --> 00:29:37,450 definition for what is a planet, right? We 823 00:29:37,450 --> 00:29:38,829 have this very awkward 824 00:29:39,369 --> 00:29:42,890 sort of, you know, the retcon definition to 825 00:29:42,890 --> 00:29:45,869 make planets an interesting and special thing because 826 00:29:46,089 --> 00:29:47,894 we grew up on one. But, you know, 827 00:29:47,894 --> 00:29:48,394 aliens 828 00:29:49,174 --> 00:29:51,575 who again grew up in interstellar space or 829 00:29:51,575 --> 00:29:53,335 the atmosphere of a star or inside a 830 00:29:53,335 --> 00:29:55,734 star or on a moon or, or something 831 00:29:55,734 --> 00:29:57,894 might have a very different sense of what's 832 00:29:57,894 --> 00:29:59,755 foundational, what's important. And 833 00:30:00,070 --> 00:30:02,309 they could see different, I don't know, layers 834 00:30:02,309 --> 00:30:04,710 of Zoom, see different things emerge and and 835 00:30:04,710 --> 00:30:06,650 use that as the basis of their questions 836 00:30:06,710 --> 00:30:08,710 and of their science. And so, yeah, they 837 00:30:08,710 --> 00:30:10,650 might not even recognize that humans 838 00:30:11,029 --> 00:30:12,970 are what we consider to be the foundational 839 00:30:13,190 --> 00:30:15,029 element of our society. They could think of 840 00:30:15,029 --> 00:30:17,345 groups of humans or, you know, parts of 841 00:30:17,345 --> 00:30:17,845 us. 842 00:30:18,224 --> 00:30:19,744 And and again, not to say this is 843 00:30:19,744 --> 00:30:21,605 the most likely, but it's just an exercise 844 00:30:21,664 --> 00:30:23,684 in questioning our assumptions and wondering 845 00:30:24,065 --> 00:30:26,404 where our humanity is biasing our perspective. 846 00:30:26,784 --> 00:30:28,859 So so if we assume that we can 847 00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:31,900 we can have some sort of communication with 848 00:30:31,900 --> 00:30:33,279 an alien civilization, 849 00:30:34,059 --> 00:30:35,900 we we sort of move on to the, 850 00:30:35,900 --> 00:30:37,039 I suppose, the questions. 851 00:30:37,660 --> 00:30:40,640 Yeah. You know, human human scientists 852 00:30:41,179 --> 00:30:41,679 scientists 853 00:30:42,299 --> 00:30:42,799 ask 854 00:30:43,144 --> 00:30:44,684 certain questions of nature, 855 00:30:45,784 --> 00:30:48,024 and you know, I suppose you've pointed out 856 00:30:48,024 --> 00:30:50,345 that those questions are probably very biased 857 00:30:50,825 --> 00:30:52,605 Mhmm. In terms of our environment. 858 00:30:52,984 --> 00:30:55,625 What, I mean, what are the possibilities for 859 00:30:55,625 --> 00:30:56,684 the sort of questions 860 00:30:57,420 --> 00:30:57,920 that, 861 00:30:58,539 --> 00:31:00,160 an alien civilization 862 00:31:01,500 --> 00:31:02,559 could ask? 863 00:31:02,940 --> 00:31:05,259 And, you know, would the answers to those 864 00:31:05,259 --> 00:31:07,519 questions even be meaningful to us? 865 00:31:09,019 --> 00:31:10,700 Yeah. Well, one way to start to think 866 00:31:10,700 --> 00:31:12,320 about that is to think about 867 00:31:13,035 --> 00:31:13,535 You 868 00:31:14,715 --> 00:31:16,734 know, what universe are they 869 00:31:17,195 --> 00:31:19,055 perceiving? Right? We have a certain 870 00:31:19,434 --> 00:31:21,914 set of senses about how the universe, it 871 00:31:21,914 --> 00:31:23,434 says that our senses that give us a 872 00:31:23,434 --> 00:31:24,575 window to the universe, 873 00:31:25,130 --> 00:31:26,970 They may have a different set of senses 874 00:31:26,970 --> 00:31:28,670 or it could be very similar. 875 00:31:29,049 --> 00:31:31,049 You know, we know for example, that most 876 00:31:31,049 --> 00:31:33,710 of the universe is invisible to us, neutrinos 877 00:31:33,930 --> 00:31:36,090 and dark matter and dark energy. None of 878 00:31:36,090 --> 00:31:38,430 this is something we can register directly. 879 00:31:39,154 --> 00:31:41,095 We, of course, can build technology, 880 00:31:41,394 --> 00:31:44,755 which senses it and translates it into something 881 00:31:44,755 --> 00:31:47,414 we can sense scribbles on the computer screen, 882 00:31:47,554 --> 00:31:49,174 but we can't immediately 883 00:31:49,554 --> 00:31:50,454 understand it. 884 00:31:51,474 --> 00:31:53,730 And I think this definitely shapes the kinds 885 00:31:53,730 --> 00:31:55,809 of questions we ask about the universe, you 886 00:31:55,809 --> 00:31:56,869 know, what's out 887 00:31:57,170 --> 00:31:59,890 there. And what's interesting to study. We spend 888 00:31:59,890 --> 00:32:02,130 most of our time thinking about the 5% 889 00:32:02,130 --> 00:32:04,450 of the universe that we can directly interact 890 00:32:04,450 --> 00:32:04,950 with, 891 00:32:05,424 --> 00:32:06,244 but also 892 00:32:06,865 --> 00:32:09,744 it changes the way we get those answers 893 00:32:09,744 --> 00:32:11,845 and the answers that we find intuitive. 894 00:32:12,464 --> 00:32:14,785 You know, think about how we ask and 895 00:32:14,785 --> 00:32:16,724 answer questions about quantum mechanics. 896 00:32:17,345 --> 00:32:20,325 We tend to talk about these quantum objects 897 00:32:20,839 --> 00:32:23,720 in analogy to things we find intuitive, to 898 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,200 things we can sense. So we talk about 899 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,039 the photon and we describe we compare it 900 00:32:28,039 --> 00:32:30,759 to waves in the in water. We compare 901 00:32:30,759 --> 00:32:33,000 it to tiny bits of rock, you know, 902 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,299 essentially mini particles. 903 00:32:35,204 --> 00:32:36,724 And we know that neither of those are 904 00:32:36,724 --> 00:32:38,964 correct. The photon is neither a particle nor 905 00:32:38,964 --> 00:32:40,565 a wave. And, you know, there's lots of 906 00:32:40,565 --> 00:32:43,125 confusing popular science about how it's both and 907 00:32:43,125 --> 00:32:45,444 sometimes or whatever. But the reality is it's 908 00:32:45,444 --> 00:32:47,924 neither. It's something new and weird that can 909 00:32:47,924 --> 00:32:50,669 only be partially described by our intuition. 910 00:32:51,049 --> 00:32:53,390 And so in that sense, we're fundamentally limited 911 00:32:53,609 --> 00:32:54,909 from deeply understanding 912 00:32:55,450 --> 00:32:57,769 what is a photon because we're coming at 913 00:32:57,769 --> 00:33:00,569 it from these intuitive concepts that are based 914 00:33:00,569 --> 00:33:02,409 on the way we perceive the universe. And 915 00:33:02,409 --> 00:33:06,065 so imagine aliens that are like really microscopic. 916 00:33:06,765 --> 00:33:08,305 So for them, quantum phenomena 917 00:33:08,924 --> 00:33:11,884 are not a bizarre recent discovery, but something 918 00:33:11,884 --> 00:33:12,945 they find intuitive. 919 00:33:13,565 --> 00:33:16,765 Maybe they can interact with quantum objects without 920 00:33:16,765 --> 00:33:18,900 collapsing them. And so they can like per 921 00:33:19,380 --> 00:33:20,279 perceive superposition 922 00:33:21,220 --> 00:33:23,559 to them. The quantum objects are intuitive 923 00:33:23,940 --> 00:33:25,700 and so, you know, the kind of questions 924 00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:27,140 they would ask could be different, but most 925 00:33:27,140 --> 00:33:30,119 importantly the kind of answers they find intuitive 926 00:33:30,180 --> 00:33:30,680 and 927 00:33:31,105 --> 00:33:33,505 and the answers they accept could be very, 928 00:33:33,505 --> 00:33:34,325 very different, 929 00:33:35,024 --> 00:33:37,505 because to them these things are intuitive. In 930 00:33:37,505 --> 00:33:39,284 the end, we're always translating 931 00:33:39,585 --> 00:33:42,224 our explanations for the universe back into the 932 00:33:42,224 --> 00:33:45,480 concepts we find intuitive, which are shaped by 933 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,559 our senses, which affect the way that we 934 00:33:47,559 --> 00:33:49,720 think. And so, you know, what is it 935 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:50,940 like to be an alien 936 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,680 that can taste electrons and experience photons and 937 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,599 and to think about the quantum universe in 938 00:33:56,599 --> 00:33:58,365 that way? It's it's hard for me to 939 00:33:58,365 --> 00:34:00,605 even put myself in that in the mind 940 00:34:00,605 --> 00:34:02,445 of that kind of creature. But I think 941 00:34:02,445 --> 00:34:04,765 it's important to recognize that they could be 942 00:34:04,765 --> 00:34:07,164 inspired to ask different questions about the universe. 943 00:34:07,164 --> 00:34:09,405 Maybe they're not so interested in drilling down 944 00:34:09,405 --> 00:34:11,324 and to understand the fundamental nature of the 945 00:34:11,324 --> 00:34:13,360 universe. Maybe they figured out that there is 946 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,000 no fundamental nature. Maybe it's all just layers 947 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:16,739 of emergence. 948 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,599 And the answers that they find acceptable, you 949 00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:21,920 know, we struggle with photons, but they might 950 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,519 be like, yeah, okay, it's just like that, 951 00:34:23,519 --> 00:34:25,139 and move on, you know? 952 00:34:25,855 --> 00:34:27,934 And and do you think, you know, let's 953 00:34:27,934 --> 00:34:30,835 say, for example, we were able to communicate 954 00:34:31,055 --> 00:34:31,555 with, 955 00:34:31,934 --> 00:34:33,954 let's say, this micro microscopic, 956 00:34:35,934 --> 00:34:37,075 civilization that 957 00:34:37,454 --> 00:34:39,474 exists in a quantum world. 958 00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:41,500 I mean, do you, 959 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,199 you know, there's the the the possibility that 960 00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:47,659 we could learn 961 00:34:48,119 --> 00:34:49,500 a lot from them 962 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:51,900 about quantum mechanics. And 963 00:34:52,514 --> 00:34:54,514 they might be oblivious to a lot of 964 00:34:54,514 --> 00:34:57,414 things in the in the classical world. Mhmm. 965 00:34:57,875 --> 00:34:59,315 I mean, do you do you think that 966 00:34:59,315 --> 00:35:00,534 there could be a meaningful 967 00:35:01,635 --> 00:35:02,135 exchange 968 00:35:02,755 --> 00:35:04,694 of knowledge between 969 00:35:05,074 --> 00:35:06,454 two such civilizations, 970 00:35:06,914 --> 00:35:07,409 or 971 00:35:08,369 --> 00:35:08,869 will 972 00:35:09,809 --> 00:35:11,030 they always exist 973 00:35:11,489 --> 00:35:12,309 in solitude 974 00:35:12,849 --> 00:35:13,589 just because, 975 00:35:14,369 --> 00:35:15,109 you know, 976 00:35:16,369 --> 00:35:18,449 the the the the meaning of things is 977 00:35:18,449 --> 00:35:19,190 so different 978 00:35:19,650 --> 00:35:21,329 in each, you know, it's almost like two 979 00:35:21,329 --> 00:35:21,829 different 980 00:35:22,369 --> 00:35:22,869 universes. 981 00:35:23,625 --> 00:35:24,125 Yeah. 982 00:35:24,505 --> 00:35:26,184 No. I think there's a lot that we 983 00:35:26,184 --> 00:35:28,025 could learn and a lot of information we 984 00:35:28,025 --> 00:35:30,505 could exchange. And I really hope that when 985 00:35:30,505 --> 00:35:32,744 the aliens arrive, even if they're super advanced, 986 00:35:32,744 --> 00:35:34,824 that we do have some nuggets that we 987 00:35:34,824 --> 00:35:37,724 worked out that they find fascinating and useful. 988 00:35:38,599 --> 00:35:41,160 But I think that regardless, we'll learn something. 989 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,440 I mean, imagine aliens arrive, microscopic or not, 990 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,840 they might just have a very different set 991 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,400 of answers to how the universe works. You 992 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,954 know, we have a theory of the universe, 993 00:35:51,954 --> 00:35:54,514 and it's very, very effective. It's so precise 994 00:35:54,514 --> 00:35:56,755 and accurate that it makes people feel like, 995 00:35:56,755 --> 00:35:58,514 Wow, this is like the source code of 996 00:35:58,514 --> 00:36:00,835 the universe. It must be true. But we 997 00:36:00,835 --> 00:36:03,635 really have no guarantee that it's true, and 998 00:36:03,635 --> 00:36:05,789 specifically in the sense that there could be 999 00:36:05,789 --> 00:36:08,670 a second theory. You know, philosophers of science 1000 00:36:08,670 --> 00:36:11,890 debate this endlessly, whether there could be multiple 1001 00:36:12,670 --> 00:36:13,170 independent, 1002 00:36:13,949 --> 00:36:14,449 conceptually 1003 00:36:14,750 --> 00:36:16,610 different, but both simultaneously 1004 00:36:16,910 --> 00:36:18,590 effective theories of the universe. And when I 1005 00:36:18,590 --> 00:36:20,190 first read about this, I thought, no, that's 1006 00:36:20,190 --> 00:36:20,690 impossible. 1007 00:36:21,545 --> 00:36:23,224 If you have two theories that are making 1008 00:36:23,224 --> 00:36:24,204 the same predictions, 1009 00:36:24,505 --> 00:36:27,005 they must be fundamentally equivalent at some level, 1010 00:36:27,065 --> 00:36:28,744 and this is sort of an open question 1011 00:36:28,744 --> 00:36:30,045 in philosophy of science, 1012 00:36:30,585 --> 00:36:32,664 but it might be that aliens show up 1013 00:36:32,664 --> 00:36:34,440 and, you know, we have a theory of 1014 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,119 quantum fields and they have a theory of 1015 00:36:36,119 --> 00:36:38,380 schwontum fields or something, you know, some 1016 00:36:38,679 --> 00:36:39,179 categorically 1017 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:39,980 different 1018 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:41,980 story about what's happening 1019 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,440 in the universe because in the end our 1020 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,519 theories of the universe are theories about the 1021 00:36:46,519 --> 00:36:47,019 invisible. 1022 00:36:47,375 --> 00:36:49,375 They are talking about what's going on behind 1023 00:36:49,375 --> 00:36:51,954 the scenes to explain what we do see. 1024 00:36:52,255 --> 00:36:54,494 You know, for example, nobody's ever seen a 1025 00:36:54,494 --> 00:36:57,214 field. We only see fields when they affect 1026 00:36:57,214 --> 00:36:59,375 things we can see. Like, we talk about 1027 00:36:59,375 --> 00:37:02,420 electric fields, but really it's an intermediate calculation 1028 00:37:02,420 --> 00:37:04,260 in our minds to explain what happens to 1029 00:37:04,260 --> 00:37:05,079 an electron. 1030 00:37:05,460 --> 00:37:08,199 Right? The field is never observed directly. So 1031 00:37:08,260 --> 00:37:09,779 is that a real thing, or is that 1032 00:37:09,779 --> 00:37:11,239 a fiction in our minds? 1033 00:37:11,699 --> 00:37:13,779 So when aliens show up, if they have 1034 00:37:13,779 --> 00:37:15,159 a completely unique 1035 00:37:15,465 --> 00:37:18,025 description for how the universe works totally different 1036 00:37:18,025 --> 00:37:19,405 conceptually from ours, 1037 00:37:20,105 --> 00:37:21,644 we will still learn something. 1038 00:37:22,025 --> 00:37:24,184 Even if they don't improve our knowledge, we 1039 00:37:24,184 --> 00:37:25,785 can look at theirs and compare and say, 1040 00:37:25,785 --> 00:37:27,465 Oh, this is interesting. These parts are similar, 1041 00:37:27,465 --> 00:37:28,765 but this is very different. 1042 00:37:29,159 --> 00:37:31,559 So no matter what happens, we'll learn something 1043 00:37:31,559 --> 00:37:34,780 about how human, how arbitrary our theories are. 1044 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:36,440 And if they show up and they are 1045 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,000 doing quantum field theory and string theory, that'll 1046 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:40,940 also tell us a lot like, wow, maybe 1047 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,480 this is true. Maybe this is fundamental. Maybe 1048 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:44,619 this is this is universal 1049 00:37:45,305 --> 00:37:47,704 beyond just the human scope. So I think 1050 00:37:47,704 --> 00:37:49,805 we're guaranteed to learn something either way. 1051 00:37:50,345 --> 00:37:52,184 I see. Well, that's great. I mean, that 1052 00:37:52,265 --> 00:37:54,025 I suppose that brings us to the end 1053 00:37:54,025 --> 00:37:54,684 of the 1054 00:37:55,144 --> 00:37:55,644 extended 1055 00:37:55,945 --> 00:37:57,164 Drake equation. 1056 00:37:58,340 --> 00:37:59,940 I I wanted to ask you about, 1057 00:38:00,340 --> 00:38:01,239 your collaborator, 1058 00:38:01,940 --> 00:38:04,280 Andy Warner, who's who's done some fantastic 1059 00:38:05,219 --> 00:38:05,719 cartoons 1060 00:38:06,019 --> 00:38:08,340 that, I think there's there's at least one 1061 00:38:08,340 --> 00:38:10,119 on every page, isn't there? Yeah. 1062 00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:12,519 At least in the in the PDF version 1063 00:38:12,894 --> 00:38:15,215 that I have. And we were chatting before 1064 00:38:15,215 --> 00:38:16,835 this interview, and you said that 1065 00:38:17,295 --> 00:38:20,095 Andy doesn't have a physics background. Is that 1066 00:38:20,095 --> 00:38:20,595 right? 1067 00:38:20,974 --> 00:38:22,735 That's right. He's an artist, but he also 1068 00:38:22,735 --> 00:38:24,675 knows a lot about the history of science. 1069 00:38:25,349 --> 00:38:28,309 I've, been following his cartoons online for years. 1070 00:38:28,309 --> 00:38:29,289 He does fantastic, 1071 00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:33,990 nonfiction cartoons. He's written really fun books, you 1072 00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:36,710 know, like the history of ordinary objects, everyday 1073 00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:37,210 objects. 1074 00:38:38,094 --> 00:38:40,175 And I really enjoyed his style and his 1075 00:38:40,175 --> 00:38:43,055 humor. And so one day I just cold 1076 00:38:43,055 --> 00:38:45,135 emailed him and said, hey, do you wanna 1077 00:38:45,135 --> 00:38:47,155 collaborate on a book about aliens? 1078 00:38:48,015 --> 00:38:50,414 And we started chatting and explained to him 1079 00:38:50,414 --> 00:38:51,075 the idea. 1080 00:38:51,460 --> 00:38:53,140 And then I realized not only could he 1081 00:38:53,140 --> 00:38:55,219 add a lot of really fantastic visuals because 1082 00:38:55,219 --> 00:38:57,300 I think it's really helpful to, you know, 1083 00:38:57,300 --> 00:38:59,300 see what these aliens might look like, but 1084 00:38:59,300 --> 00:39:00,980 he also knew a lot about the history 1085 00:39:00,980 --> 00:39:02,920 of science and was into the philosophy. 1086 00:39:03,394 --> 00:39:05,714 So, yeah, he doesn't just illustrate the book. 1087 00:39:05,714 --> 00:39:07,474 He also took all of my writing and 1088 00:39:07,474 --> 00:39:09,795 made it under more understandable and added lots 1089 00:39:09,795 --> 00:39:11,494 of details to it and history. 1090 00:39:11,875 --> 00:39:13,714 We had a great time working together on 1091 00:39:13,714 --> 00:39:15,315 this book. It was it was a pleasure 1092 00:39:15,315 --> 00:39:18,510 working with Andy. Oh, that's great. And I 1093 00:39:18,510 --> 00:39:19,329 suppose another 1094 00:39:19,869 --> 00:39:21,869 another thing I'd I'd like to ask you 1095 00:39:21,869 --> 00:39:23,150 about I know I know this is a 1096 00:39:23,150 --> 00:39:24,610 bit of a downer, but, 1097 00:39:25,630 --> 00:39:27,150 you know, there there is a school of 1098 00:39:27,150 --> 00:39:27,949 thought that, 1099 00:39:28,829 --> 00:39:30,369 an alien encounter 1100 00:39:30,844 --> 00:39:31,744 could be a complete 1101 00:39:32,045 --> 00:39:32,545 disaster. 1102 00:39:32,924 --> 00:39:34,625 You know, it's a sort of colonial, 1103 00:39:35,964 --> 00:39:38,204 idea. It's you know, go ask, 1104 00:39:38,764 --> 00:39:41,324 the indigenous people of The Americas how great 1105 00:39:41,324 --> 00:39:44,284 it was when the Europeans turned up, that 1106 00:39:44,284 --> 00:39:46,559 that sort of thing. Are you, 1107 00:39:46,940 --> 00:39:47,839 does that 1108 00:39:48,219 --> 00:39:49,900 worry you? I mean, I suppose in a 1109 00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:52,000 sense there's nothing you can do about it. 1110 00:39:52,299 --> 00:39:52,619 But, 1111 00:39:53,420 --> 00:39:57,039 do you see different degrees of encounter? 1112 00:39:57,579 --> 00:40:00,735 Mhmm. Some being very positive and others, well, 1113 00:40:00,735 --> 00:40:03,055 maybe being a disaster. I mean, I think 1114 00:40:03,055 --> 00:40:04,815 there is a a cartoon right at the 1115 00:40:04,815 --> 00:40:07,454 beginning, isn't there? Where you address that. You 1116 00:40:07,454 --> 00:40:09,315 and Andy address that in the book. 1117 00:40:10,815 --> 00:40:13,055 Yeah. We we have no idea what aliens 1118 00:40:13,055 --> 00:40:14,139 would do if they show up. Up. You 1119 00:40:14,139 --> 00:40:15,739 know, are they gonna nuke us from space? 1120 00:40:15,739 --> 00:40:17,900 Are they gonna enslave us or eat us 1121 00:40:17,900 --> 00:40:20,539 or drop wisdom bombs on us? We really 1122 00:40:20,539 --> 00:40:21,599 have no idea, 1123 00:40:22,059 --> 00:40:24,300 what they might do. I'm a big reader 1124 00:40:24,300 --> 00:40:26,300 of science fiction, and obviously this is all 1125 00:40:26,300 --> 00:40:27,039 just speculation. 1126 00:40:27,625 --> 00:40:29,625 But to me, it seems strange to imagine 1127 00:40:29,625 --> 00:40:31,545 aliens would come and, like, try to take 1128 00:40:31,545 --> 00:40:33,224 over the Earth or whatever. It's not like 1129 00:40:33,224 --> 00:40:35,085 the Earth has special resources. 1130 00:40:35,625 --> 00:40:37,864 You know, you want water? There's, like, planets 1131 00:40:37,864 --> 00:40:39,704 filled with water in the outer solar system. 1132 00:40:39,704 --> 00:40:40,445 Help yourself. 1133 00:40:40,900 --> 00:40:42,739 You know, you want heavy metals? The asteroid 1134 00:40:42,739 --> 00:40:44,900 belt is filled with platinum and gold and 1135 00:40:44,900 --> 00:40:45,400 whatever. 1136 00:40:46,019 --> 00:40:48,019 The only thing that's really interesting about the 1137 00:40:48,019 --> 00:40:50,440 Earth is the life here and the intelligence 1138 00:40:50,579 --> 00:40:52,500 here. And so, like, yeah, come talk to 1139 00:40:52,500 --> 00:40:52,815 us. 1140 00:40:53,454 --> 00:40:54,894 It's hard to imagine, but, you know, I 1141 00:40:54,894 --> 00:40:56,734 just written a whole book about how we 1142 00:40:56,734 --> 00:40:58,894 shouldn't base our assumptions. We shouldn't make assumptions 1143 00:40:58,894 --> 00:41:00,974 about what aliens might do or think or 1144 00:41:00,974 --> 00:41:01,474 want. 1145 00:41:02,014 --> 00:41:04,414 So there obviously is the potential for great 1146 00:41:04,414 --> 00:41:05,635 danger there. Civilization 1147 00:41:06,094 --> 00:41:06,989 is at stake. 1148 00:41:07,469 --> 00:41:09,889 But, you know, I am so curious about 1149 00:41:10,349 --> 00:41:12,429 what aliens might be thinking about the universe 1150 00:41:12,429 --> 00:41:14,190 and if we could learn from them that 1151 00:41:14,190 --> 00:41:14,690 personally, 1152 00:41:15,309 --> 00:41:16,989 I would take the risk. Like, if there's 1153 00:41:16,989 --> 00:41:19,230 an alien ship zipping by the solar system, 1154 00:41:19,230 --> 00:41:20,829 we have the option of whether to let 1155 00:41:20,829 --> 00:41:23,054 them know we're here. I'm saying yes. Let's 1156 00:41:23,054 --> 00:41:25,054 hit that red button and let's gamble it 1157 00:41:25,054 --> 00:41:27,155 because we would learn so much 1158 00:41:27,534 --> 00:41:30,034 about life and the universe and ourselves 1159 00:41:30,335 --> 00:41:33,295 by talking to alien scientists. I I wouldn't 1160 00:41:33,295 --> 00:41:34,594 wanna pass up the opportunity. 1161 00:41:35,215 --> 00:41:36,434 And and what about, 1162 00:41:37,070 --> 00:41:39,409 you know, this idea of trying to communicate, 1163 00:41:41,070 --> 00:41:43,329 with aliens, you know, in the sense of, 1164 00:41:44,349 --> 00:41:45,570 sending out messages, 1165 00:41:47,389 --> 00:41:49,755 you mentioned the sort of Carl Sagan and 1166 00:41:50,074 --> 00:41:52,335 and is it Frank Drake Frank Drake, 1167 00:41:52,875 --> 00:41:54,815 messages that were sent out on, 1168 00:41:55,114 --> 00:41:57,134 is it Pioneer and and Voyager? 1169 00:41:57,755 --> 00:41:59,775 Is that, I mean, is that something 1170 00:42:00,634 --> 00:42:02,909 that we should be doing? Is it, 1171 00:42:03,869 --> 00:42:05,949 you know, could it work or is it 1172 00:42:05,949 --> 00:42:08,130 futile? The distances are so great. 1173 00:42:09,949 --> 00:42:12,190 I think it's worth doing, but obviously I 1174 00:42:12,190 --> 00:42:14,989 shouldn't speak for humanity and it's a complicated 1175 00:42:14,989 --> 00:42:16,994 question. I know the folks at SETI have 1176 00:42:16,994 --> 00:42:19,394 spent a lot of time thinking carefully about 1177 00:42:19,394 --> 00:42:21,714 this. I spoke to Jill Tartar about this 1178 00:42:21,714 --> 00:42:24,594 and building a consensus on the Earth from 1179 00:42:24,594 --> 00:42:27,474 all different cultures and backgrounds about whether or 1180 00:42:27,474 --> 00:42:29,154 not this is the right thing to do 1181 00:42:29,154 --> 00:42:31,154 is a challenge, and that's the right way 1182 00:42:31,154 --> 00:42:32,969 to do it. You know, like one flipping 1183 00:42:32,969 --> 00:42:35,130 physicist who's curious about the universe should not 1184 00:42:35,130 --> 00:42:37,309 be determining the fate of the planet. 1185 00:42:38,329 --> 00:42:40,250 We should be careful and thoughtful about that. 1186 00:42:40,250 --> 00:42:42,329 And I know people send messages into space 1187 00:42:42,329 --> 00:42:43,309 without necessarily, 1188 00:42:43,849 --> 00:42:45,630 you know, coming to a consensus. 1189 00:42:46,094 --> 00:42:48,195 But personally, I think it's unlikely 1190 00:42:48,574 --> 00:42:49,715 that we are going 1191 00:42:50,255 --> 00:42:52,734 to receive a message that we understand. For 1192 00:42:52,734 --> 00:42:54,894 that to happen, you know, we have to 1193 00:42:54,894 --> 00:42:55,394 anticipate 1194 00:42:55,855 --> 00:42:58,755 the technology they use, the encoding they use, 1195 00:42:59,295 --> 00:43:02,519 reverse engineer it when we have no idea 1196 00:43:02,519 --> 00:43:04,440 what the message is supposed to look like? 1197 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,680 That's very, very difficult. Mhmm. As we were 1198 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,079 talking about earlier in the podcast, like, even 1199 00:43:09,079 --> 00:43:10,700 breaking down human languages 1200 00:43:11,079 --> 00:43:14,144 is challenging and almost impossible, and we weren't 1201 00:43:14,304 --> 00:43:16,224 able to do it for hieroglyphics without the 1202 00:43:16,224 --> 00:43:18,385 Rosetta Stone. And even still, it took twenty 1203 00:43:18,385 --> 00:43:20,945 years, and there are existing human languages we 1204 00:43:20,945 --> 00:43:23,184 have not been able to decode. So the 1205 00:43:23,184 --> 00:43:24,784 idea that we could get, like, a a 1206 00:43:24,784 --> 00:43:27,985 snippet of alien language and somehow be able 1207 00:43:27,985 --> 00:43:30,130 to figure out what it says seems very 1208 00:43:30,130 --> 00:43:31,269 unlikely to me, 1209 00:43:31,730 --> 00:43:32,929 which is why in the book, again, I 1210 00:43:32,929 --> 00:43:35,090 focused on aliens arriving because then we have, 1211 00:43:35,090 --> 00:43:37,170 like, a physical context from which to build 1212 00:43:37,170 --> 00:43:39,269 up potentially some kind of communication. 1213 00:43:40,130 --> 00:43:42,710 But so personally, I say yes. Let's broadcast 1214 00:43:42,849 --> 00:43:44,610 to the universe because I wanna start the 1215 00:43:44,610 --> 00:43:47,714 first inter stellar science conference. But I acknowledge 1216 00:43:47,714 --> 00:43:49,635 there are risks there, and everybody's read the 1217 00:43:49,635 --> 00:43:52,114 Dark Forest trilogy knows all about them, and 1218 00:43:52,114 --> 00:43:54,534 my voice definitely shouldn't be the loudest. But 1219 00:43:54,594 --> 00:43:57,074 for me, the curiosity about the universe is 1220 00:43:57,074 --> 00:43:57,574 paramount. 1221 00:43:58,449 --> 00:44:00,690 Well, that's great. That's, that's a good place 1222 00:44:00,690 --> 00:44:02,150 to leave it, Daniel. 1223 00:44:03,090 --> 00:44:05,110 So that's, that's your book, 1224 00:44:05,410 --> 00:44:06,230 Do Aliens 1225 00:44:06,530 --> 00:44:07,510 Speak Physics, 1226 00:44:08,289 --> 00:44:12,130 and, that's cowritten with, Andy Warner. And I'll 1227 00:44:12,130 --> 00:44:13,110 put a link, 1228 00:44:13,795 --> 00:44:15,474 to the book in the notes for this 1229 00:44:15,474 --> 00:44:15,974 podcast. 1230 00:44:16,515 --> 00:44:17,894 Thanks very much for the conversation. 1231 00:44:18,275 --> 00:44:21,894 Always wonderful to talk about aliens with interested 1232 00:44:21,954 --> 00:44:24,515 folks. Great. Thanks for coming on the podcast, 1233 00:44:24,515 --> 00:44:25,015 Daniel. 1234 00:44:33,710 --> 00:44:36,909 That was Daniel Whiteson of the University of 1235 00:44:36,909 --> 00:44:37,409 California, 1236 00:44:37,710 --> 00:44:38,210 Irvine. 1237 00:44:38,795 --> 00:44:39,614 He's cowritten, 1238 00:44:39,994 --> 00:44:43,434 Do Aliens Speak Physics? With the California based 1239 00:44:43,434 --> 00:44:45,055 artist, Andy Warner. 1240 00:44:45,755 --> 00:44:48,494 Their book is published by w w 1241 00:44:48,795 --> 00:44:50,015 Norton and Company, 1242 00:44:50,315 --> 00:44:51,914 and I'll put a link to it in 1243 00:44:51,914 --> 00:44:53,135 the podcast notes. 1244 00:44:53,619 --> 00:44:55,880 Thanks to Daniel for joining me today 1245 00:44:56,260 --> 00:44:58,679 and to our producer, Fred Isles. 1246 00:44:59,380 --> 00:45:02,099 Thank you for listening to this podcast, which 1247 00:45:02,099 --> 00:45:03,880 is supported by the APS 1248 00:45:04,260 --> 00:45:05,880 Global Physics Summit. 1249 00:45:06,485 --> 00:45:07,224 To continue 1250 00:45:07,605 --> 00:45:09,864 advancing physics beyond this podcast, 1251 00:45:10,405 --> 00:45:12,105 participate in the APS 1252 00:45:12,565 --> 00:45:14,105 Global Physics Summit 1253 00:45:14,485 --> 00:45:16,894 on March 1254 00:45:16,894 --> 00:45:18,985 2026 1255 00:45:19,260 --> 00:45:20,559 in Denver, Colorado 1256 00:45:21,260 --> 00:45:22,239 and online. 1257 00:45:23,099 --> 00:45:24,719 Experience high impact 1258 00:45:25,179 --> 00:45:26,239 scientific sessions, 1259 00:45:26,619 --> 00:45:27,920 networking opportunities, 1260 00:45:28,539 --> 00:45:29,039 workshops, 1261 00:45:29,420 --> 00:45:31,280 and community building events 1262 00:45:31,659 --> 00:45:33,920 designed for every career stage. 1263 00:45:34,554 --> 00:45:37,034 Learn how you can attend and shape the 1264 00:45:37,034 --> 00:45:41,695 future of physics at summit.aps.org.