1 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,880 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly 2 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:12,900 podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston. 3 00:00:13,355 --> 00:00:16,654 In this episode, I'm in conversation with Antonio 4 00:00:16,954 --> 00:00:17,454 Rossi, 5 00:00:17,835 --> 00:00:20,414 who's a researcher in two d materials 6 00:00:20,795 --> 00:00:21,295 engineering 7 00:00:21,754 --> 00:00:24,094 at the Italian Institute of Technology 8 00:00:24,634 --> 00:00:25,454 in Genoa. 9 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,880 We explore how two d materials such as 10 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:29,380 graphene 11 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,100 are finding a wide range of applications, 12 00:00:32,799 --> 00:00:36,260 including in fundamental science, quantum technologies, 13 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:37,460 and industrial 14 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:38,260 coatings. 15 00:00:39,094 --> 00:00:43,114 Much of Rossi's research focuses on tungsten disulfide 16 00:00:43,655 --> 00:00:44,554 and hexagonal 17 00:00:44,934 --> 00:00:46,075 boron nitride, 18 00:00:46,534 --> 00:00:49,335 which he explains are two d materials with 19 00:00:49,335 --> 00:00:52,634 great potential for electronics and optoelectronics. 20 00:00:54,109 --> 00:00:56,770 We also chat about the use of artificial 21 00:00:57,309 --> 00:00:59,809 neural networks and artificial intelligence 22 00:01:00,590 --> 00:01:02,289 to optimize the synthesis 23 00:01:02,670 --> 00:01:03,969 of two d materials. 24 00:01:04,989 --> 00:01:06,689 Before we get to that conversation, 25 00:01:07,150 --> 00:01:09,150 I'd like to introduce you to a new 26 00:01:09,150 --> 00:01:12,825 and quick way of discovering cutting edge science. 27 00:01:13,765 --> 00:01:15,545 IOP Publishing's new 28 00:01:15,924 --> 00:01:17,784 Progress In series, 29 00:01:18,564 --> 00:01:19,625 research highlights 30 00:01:20,084 --> 00:01:20,584 website 31 00:01:21,125 --> 00:01:22,905 offers quick and accessible 32 00:01:23,204 --> 00:01:23,704 summaries 33 00:01:24,005 --> 00:01:25,145 of top papers 34 00:01:25,530 --> 00:01:27,469 from leading journals like Reports 35 00:01:27,770 --> 00:01:29,310 on Progress in Physics 36 00:01:29,609 --> 00:01:31,310 and Progress in Energy. 37 00:01:32,090 --> 00:01:35,049 Whether you're short on time or just want 38 00:01:35,049 --> 00:01:35,790 the essentials, 39 00:01:36,569 --> 00:01:39,915 these highlights help you expand your knowledge on 40 00:01:39,915 --> 00:01:40,974 leading topics 41 00:01:41,795 --> 00:01:42,295 fast. 42 00:01:43,114 --> 00:01:44,894 Perfect for busy researchers, 43 00:01:45,435 --> 00:01:48,795 curious minds, and anyone who wants to stay 44 00:01:48,795 --> 00:01:49,295 informed 45 00:01:49,674 --> 00:01:51,134 without the deep dive. 46 00:01:51,849 --> 00:01:53,869 To start reading, just type 47 00:01:54,250 --> 00:01:55,869 progress in series 48 00:01:56,489 --> 00:01:59,869 research highlights into your favorite search engine, 49 00:02:00,329 --> 00:02:02,890 or follow the link in the notes for 50 00:02:02,890 --> 00:02:03,709 this podcast. 51 00:02:12,694 --> 00:02:13,594 Hi, Antonio. 52 00:02:13,895 --> 00:02:15,115 Welcome to the podcast. 53 00:02:15,895 --> 00:02:17,915 Hi. It's a pleasure to be here. 54 00:02:18,689 --> 00:02:21,509 So, Antonio, can we start with the basics? 55 00:02:21,650 --> 00:02:23,750 What are two d materials, 56 00:02:24,370 --> 00:02:26,689 and why are they interesting in terms of 57 00:02:26,689 --> 00:02:27,830 science and technology? 58 00:02:29,090 --> 00:02:31,009 Yes. So two d materials are, 59 00:02:32,314 --> 00:02:34,895 like, classical materials and arrangement of atoms. 60 00:02:35,514 --> 00:02:38,335 The the the main difference with respect to, 61 00:02:38,955 --> 00:02:41,754 classical three d three materials is that they 62 00:02:41,754 --> 00:02:42,814 extend over 63 00:02:43,354 --> 00:02:45,675 a sheet that is, three up to three 64 00:02:45,675 --> 00:02:46,175 atoms 65 00:02:46,759 --> 00:02:49,879 thick, which makes them extremely different in terms 66 00:02:49,879 --> 00:02:51,659 of properties that they display. 67 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:52,599 And, 68 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:54,300 they 69 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:55,340 they 70 00:02:55,879 --> 00:02:58,759 go through what's called quantum confinement thanks to 71 00:02:58,759 --> 00:02:59,055 this, 72 00:02:59,935 --> 00:03:00,754 low dimensionality, 73 00:03:01,775 --> 00:03:04,495 which is great because usually atoms, they tend 74 00:03:04,495 --> 00:03:06,094 to be in the three d world. Right? 75 00:03:06,094 --> 00:03:06,814 They tend to be, 76 00:03:08,574 --> 00:03:10,974 x y z orbital, but then they are 77 00:03:10,974 --> 00:03:12,834 confined in a x y 78 00:03:13,569 --> 00:03:14,069 space. 79 00:03:14,610 --> 00:03:16,069 And packing them together, 80 00:03:17,810 --> 00:03:18,310 basically, 81 00:03:18,689 --> 00:03:20,469 this, offers the opportunity 82 00:03:20,770 --> 00:03:21,430 to explore 83 00:03:21,810 --> 00:03:23,810 a different physics with respect to, 84 00:03:24,129 --> 00:03:25,590 normal Trinity compounds. 85 00:03:26,724 --> 00:03:29,925 I see. And and graphene is perhaps the 86 00:03:29,925 --> 00:03:30,824 most famous 87 00:03:31,444 --> 00:03:32,504 two d material. 88 00:03:32,884 --> 00:03:34,824 In fact, I I I had an encounter 89 00:03:34,884 --> 00:03:36,884 with graphene over the weekend. My wife and 90 00:03:36,884 --> 00:03:39,625 I are looking at buying a new car. 91 00:03:40,050 --> 00:03:41,810 And we went to the dealership, and they 92 00:03:41,810 --> 00:03:42,550 were offering 93 00:03:43,009 --> 00:03:45,270 a special graphene coating 94 00:03:45,810 --> 00:03:46,629 on the car. 95 00:03:47,250 --> 00:03:48,770 I sort of had my doubts as to 96 00:03:48,770 --> 00:03:50,389 whether it was actually graphene, 97 00:03:51,250 --> 00:03:52,389 or or something 98 00:03:52,805 --> 00:03:54,185 something else. But, 99 00:03:54,724 --> 00:03:56,665 you know, I think a lot of listeners 100 00:03:56,885 --> 00:03:58,264 will be familiar 101 00:03:58,645 --> 00:04:00,825 with graphene. What what is the current 102 00:04:01,284 --> 00:04:03,764 state of play with graphene? Is it being 103 00:04:03,764 --> 00:04:04,264 used 104 00:04:04,724 --> 00:04:06,025 in commercial technologies? 105 00:04:06,325 --> 00:04:06,825 Indeed, 106 00:04:08,020 --> 00:04:10,040 were they not joking at the car dealership? 107 00:04:10,099 --> 00:04:11,560 Were they putting it on cars? 108 00:04:12,099 --> 00:04:13,800 So they were not joking 109 00:04:14,500 --> 00:04:16,819 up to a point. There's been a huge 110 00:04:16,819 --> 00:04:19,959 debate lately about what graphene actually is and 111 00:04:20,605 --> 00:04:23,004 what these components are made of because they 112 00:04:23,245 --> 00:04:25,245 it's easy to say graphene, then when you 113 00:04:25,245 --> 00:04:27,904 go look into that, it's not exactly graphene. 114 00:04:28,285 --> 00:04:30,125 Graphene is mostly, let's say, 115 00:04:30,845 --> 00:04:34,205 one single layer of carbon atoms arranged in 116 00:04:34,205 --> 00:04:35,189 a honeycomb lattice. 117 00:04:35,990 --> 00:04:37,850 Right? And that's the definition of graphene. 118 00:04:38,230 --> 00:04:40,569 But then people start playing with the having, 119 00:04:41,670 --> 00:04:45,189 graphene oxide that is a different structure as 120 00:04:45,189 --> 00:04:47,750 an oxygen in the in the compound. Reduce 121 00:04:47,750 --> 00:04:50,629 graphene oxide that was before oxidized and then 122 00:04:50,629 --> 00:04:52,865 reduced, and then it's very defective, 123 00:04:54,045 --> 00:04:56,524 which is not graphic because it's missing some, 124 00:04:56,925 --> 00:04:59,245 some carbon atoms from from the from the 125 00:04:59,245 --> 00:05:01,024 lattice from the lattice structure. 126 00:05:01,725 --> 00:05:04,850 Yet, is it that different? Can we just, 127 00:05:05,310 --> 00:05:08,029 like, graphing based material, all of that? That 128 00:05:08,350 --> 00:05:10,209 I think it's fair to say that. 129 00:05:10,669 --> 00:05:12,610 And the dealership yeah. Then 130 00:05:13,149 --> 00:05:15,870 they will probably offering you, like, this new 131 00:05:15,870 --> 00:05:16,990 coating that also 132 00:05:17,949 --> 00:05:19,335 I don't I'm not sure if I'm allowed 133 00:05:19,335 --> 00:05:20,955 to say company's name, but, 134 00:05:22,535 --> 00:05:25,355 even our our, Airbus is, is developing, 135 00:05:26,694 --> 00:05:28,314 for for airplane technology. 136 00:05:29,014 --> 00:05:31,254 And so it's reasonable that you have, like, 137 00:05:31,254 --> 00:05:31,915 a composite 138 00:05:32,389 --> 00:05:34,730 material that implements some graphene 139 00:05:35,430 --> 00:05:38,870 form of, these, bigger umbrella of graphene based 140 00:05:38,870 --> 00:05:39,370 materials. 141 00:05:40,230 --> 00:05:42,410 In that sense, there's been a lot 142 00:05:42,790 --> 00:05:45,555 of development towards market. Like, 143 00:05:46,754 --> 00:05:48,754 let's say the the the first years of 144 00:05:48,754 --> 00:05:50,694 the what's called graphene flagship, 145 00:05:51,154 --> 00:05:54,194 the big European initiative to study graphene and 146 00:05:54,194 --> 00:05:54,935 two d materials, 147 00:05:55,875 --> 00:05:57,814 has been prompted by the 148 00:05:58,514 --> 00:06:00,675 need to understand the property of two d 149 00:06:00,675 --> 00:06:02,490 two d materials. But later on, people were 150 00:06:02,490 --> 00:06:03,229 like, okay. 151 00:06:03,930 --> 00:06:06,009 Now we have a clear picture of what's 152 00:06:06,009 --> 00:06:08,990 going on, at least, like, let's say, 80%. 153 00:06:09,689 --> 00:06:11,449 Let's try to go to market. Let's try 154 00:06:11,449 --> 00:06:13,529 to make a product out of it. And 155 00:06:13,529 --> 00:06:16,535 so there are different sectors that you can 156 00:06:16,535 --> 00:06:17,194 think of, 157 00:06:18,214 --> 00:06:20,555 from composite material to electronics 158 00:06:20,935 --> 00:06:21,435 to, 159 00:06:22,454 --> 00:06:22,954 batteries. 160 00:06:23,975 --> 00:06:27,334 And now the market the graphic market is 161 00:06:27,334 --> 00:06:29,540 around 350,000,000, 162 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:30,980 380,000,000, 163 00:06:31,759 --> 00:06:32,579 US dollars. 164 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,980 And but it's projected to reach the 1,500,000,000.0 165 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,060 by the 2027. 166 00:06:39,519 --> 00:06:41,839 So it is being used. It's implemented. There's 167 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:43,300 a there are a lot of, like, initiatives 168 00:06:43,439 --> 00:06:45,464 in that sense. For instance, like, one great 169 00:06:45,464 --> 00:06:48,105 example that, came out recently is, like, this 170 00:06:48,105 --> 00:06:50,045 new graphene based paint 171 00:06:50,425 --> 00:06:51,485 that you can use 172 00:06:53,225 --> 00:06:55,485 to paint your house walls with. 173 00:06:56,024 --> 00:06:58,919 There is also a heating source. So, basically, 174 00:06:58,979 --> 00:07:00,199 you are cutting down, 175 00:07:00,579 --> 00:07:02,979 the power consumption to heat up and to, 176 00:07:03,459 --> 00:07:05,060 to heat up your house. So you just 177 00:07:05,060 --> 00:07:06,919 get the heat straight out of the paint. 178 00:07:07,779 --> 00:07:10,039 And so this is like a great, great, 179 00:07:10,845 --> 00:07:13,185 use of, of graphene in my opinion. 180 00:07:13,645 --> 00:07:14,145 But 181 00:07:14,525 --> 00:07:17,105 I know, like, many people ask, 182 00:07:17,564 --> 00:07:19,404 so is do you find, like, a real 183 00:07:19,404 --> 00:07:22,045 application to graphene? Because as the conversation started 184 00:07:22,045 --> 00:07:24,145 many years ago, everybody was expecting 185 00:07:24,845 --> 00:07:28,120 new electronics. Right? Exactly. Yeah. They say graphene 186 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:29,259 is the new silicon, 187 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,060 and so everybody was waiting for that. 188 00:07:32,439 --> 00:07:34,680 But there are many problems in that direction. 189 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,159 First of all, it does not show the 190 00:07:37,159 --> 00:07:38,139 zero one, 191 00:07:38,759 --> 00:07:39,819 signal the silicon 192 00:07:41,185 --> 00:07:41,685 produces. 193 00:07:42,225 --> 00:07:44,144 And so that makes, like, the the the 194 00:07:44,144 --> 00:07:46,144 logic the computer logic a little bit hard 195 00:07:46,144 --> 00:07:47,365 to to parse. 196 00:07:47,824 --> 00:07:49,664 And at the same time, the quality of 197 00:07:49,664 --> 00:07:51,044 the material that, 198 00:07:52,144 --> 00:07:54,509 people use to make science from the 199 00:07:54,990 --> 00:07:56,689 famous Scotch tape technique 200 00:07:57,710 --> 00:07:58,529 used to be 201 00:07:58,990 --> 00:08:00,610 much higher than the, 202 00:08:02,430 --> 00:08:04,029 the quality of the material that you can 203 00:08:04,029 --> 00:08:06,975 produce via other methods and scalable methods. 204 00:08:07,375 --> 00:08:08,995 Now this gap has been 205 00:08:10,095 --> 00:08:10,595 closed, 206 00:08:11,214 --> 00:08:14,095 I would say. Like, lately, like, you can 207 00:08:14,095 --> 00:08:17,214 see that chemical vapor deposition graphing is famous 208 00:08:17,214 --> 00:08:18,095 technique that, 209 00:08:18,574 --> 00:08:19,074 employs, 210 00:08:19,615 --> 00:08:20,115 copper 211 00:08:20,975 --> 00:08:22,675 as a subject to grow graphene, 212 00:08:24,079 --> 00:08:26,560 delivered, like, very high quality samples. And you 213 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,839 can see the quantum physics that was that 214 00:08:29,839 --> 00:08:30,339 was, 215 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,519 at first just in the exfoliated material. 216 00:08:35,519 --> 00:08:36,259 And so 217 00:08:36,715 --> 00:08:37,455 that that 218 00:08:37,835 --> 00:08:39,835 that gap is causing, but this is something 219 00:08:39,835 --> 00:08:41,914 that is really recent. There are a number 220 00:08:41,914 --> 00:08:44,174 of scientists across the the globe, 221 00:08:45,034 --> 00:08:48,575 that are working into integrating graphene into silicon 222 00:08:48,715 --> 00:08:50,875 technology, and I think that's a safer route 223 00:08:50,875 --> 00:08:53,290 because you don't have to reinvent the whole 224 00:08:53,290 --> 00:08:55,889 supply chain. You're just placing, like, a piece 225 00:08:55,889 --> 00:08:56,009 of, 226 00:08:57,929 --> 00:09:00,570 carbon, the graphene, into something that already exists 227 00:09:00,570 --> 00:09:01,710 that can make it better. 228 00:09:02,090 --> 00:09:04,169 On the other hand, there are some properties 229 00:09:04,169 --> 00:09:06,910 that only graphene has, like its optical absorption. 230 00:09:07,475 --> 00:09:10,434 They makes it they make it extremely suitable 231 00:09:10,434 --> 00:09:14,134 for optoelectronic application, for extra fast auto optoelectronic 232 00:09:14,355 --> 00:09:16,454 application. And there are a number of startups 233 00:09:16,514 --> 00:09:17,894 that are, like, start, 234 00:09:19,394 --> 00:09:21,654 becoming famous in that sense, like, becoming, 235 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,160 delivering to the market some products that can 236 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:25,540 actually be used to 237 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,899 detect and motivate flight, which I think it's 238 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,420 the closest thing to having something entirely graphene 239 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,024 based, that is rephrasing electronics, of 240 00:09:35,904 --> 00:09:38,225 course. I see. So so it's still we 241 00:09:38,225 --> 00:09:41,045 we can still call graphene a wonder material. 242 00:09:41,184 --> 00:09:42,144 It's just that, 243 00:09:42,945 --> 00:09:46,225 maybe it's taken longer than expected for some 244 00:09:46,225 --> 00:09:48,725 of those applications to come to fruition. 245 00:09:49,649 --> 00:09:50,549 Yes. Yes. 246 00:09:51,250 --> 00:09:52,929 I wanna say that we are a little 247 00:09:52,929 --> 00:09:55,409 bit biased. Right? Because we knew what silicon 248 00:09:55,409 --> 00:09:58,049 could do, and we could not see anything 249 00:09:58,049 --> 00:10:01,009 different. So we wanna have silicon but made 250 00:10:01,009 --> 00:10:01,514 of graphene. 251 00:10:02,475 --> 00:10:03,855 So it requires, like, a, 252 00:10:05,514 --> 00:10:07,215 let's say, a bigger leap 253 00:10:08,475 --> 00:10:09,134 to reinvent 254 00:10:09,995 --> 00:10:12,475 electronics, to reinvent logic. And in that sense, 255 00:10:12,475 --> 00:10:14,970 that might require a little bit more time, 256 00:10:14,970 --> 00:10:17,529 but graphene is still, like, a perfect candidate 257 00:10:17,529 --> 00:10:18,350 in that sense 258 00:10:18,809 --> 00:10:19,789 if you ask me. 259 00:10:20,169 --> 00:10:21,470 I see. And, Antonio, 260 00:10:22,250 --> 00:10:24,830 the graphene is by no means the only 261 00:10:25,209 --> 00:10:26,190 two d material. 262 00:10:27,289 --> 00:10:28,269 There are others, 263 00:10:29,134 --> 00:10:31,955 that have great scientific and technical interest. 264 00:10:32,335 --> 00:10:33,315 You work on 265 00:10:33,774 --> 00:10:34,995 tungsten disulfide 266 00:10:35,455 --> 00:10:35,955 and 267 00:10:36,335 --> 00:10:36,835 hexagonal 268 00:10:37,294 --> 00:10:37,794 boron 269 00:10:38,174 --> 00:10:38,674 nitride. 270 00:10:39,215 --> 00:10:41,475 Can you can you give us an introduction 271 00:10:42,019 --> 00:10:44,740 to those materials? Absolutely. I I'm really excited 272 00:10:44,740 --> 00:10:47,299 to talk about these two materials. Taq's and 273 00:10:47,299 --> 00:10:49,000 sulfide first because it was my 274 00:10:50,259 --> 00:10:53,240 PhD project. You know? I started, like, synthesizing, 275 00:10:53,940 --> 00:10:54,919 tanks and sulfide. 276 00:10:55,235 --> 00:10:57,634 Packs and sulfide is basically like graphene. It's 277 00:10:57,634 --> 00:10:59,315 still like a two d materials, but instead 278 00:10:59,315 --> 00:11:00,935 of being made by 279 00:11:02,274 --> 00:11:04,995 one layer of material, it's made by three 280 00:11:04,995 --> 00:11:07,815 layers. So the top and the bottom is 281 00:11:08,799 --> 00:11:10,980 sulfide, so sulfur sulfur layer. 282 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:12,179 It is sandwiching 283 00:11:12,639 --> 00:11:14,960 a tanks and atom layer. So it's like 284 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:16,500 a really thin sandwich. 285 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:17,360 And, 286 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:18,440 the 287 00:11:18,879 --> 00:11:20,179 with respect to graphene, 288 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:21,220 it displays 289 00:11:22,875 --> 00:11:24,575 that zero one 290 00:11:25,034 --> 00:11:26,654 characteristic that is typical 291 00:11:27,034 --> 00:11:30,174 of of silicon. Okay? And has also great, 292 00:11:30,714 --> 00:11:33,695 optical properties. It absorbs light. It emits light. 293 00:11:33,995 --> 00:11:34,495 It 294 00:11:34,875 --> 00:11:37,375 it works really well in that sense. And 295 00:11:37,620 --> 00:11:39,460 given that it's three atoms, and we're still 296 00:11:39,460 --> 00:11:42,259 talking about something that is a very limited 297 00:11:42,259 --> 00:11:44,600 number of atoms interacting with light. So 298 00:11:45,059 --> 00:11:47,240 given that, it works extremely well. 299 00:11:47,700 --> 00:11:48,919 And recently, 300 00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:53,444 TSMC in Taiwan delivered, like, one 301 00:11:54,784 --> 00:11:57,105 technology that was entirely based on a cousin 302 00:11:57,105 --> 00:11:59,284 of tanks and sulfide. It was molybdenum sulfide. 303 00:12:00,144 --> 00:12:03,424 Basically, the same properties just like different numbers, 304 00:12:03,424 --> 00:12:04,725 but same properties. 305 00:12:05,264 --> 00:12:07,139 So that in that sense, like, if you 306 00:12:07,139 --> 00:12:10,019 if you think about, like, regular electronics, that's 307 00:12:10,019 --> 00:12:12,820 like a strong candidate to actually outperform sync 308 00:12:12,899 --> 00:12:13,399 silicon, 309 00:12:15,139 --> 00:12:16,899 in the two d material world and can 310 00:12:16,899 --> 00:12:19,379 do things that graphing cannot do at the 311 00:12:19,379 --> 00:12:20,120 same time. 312 00:12:20,500 --> 00:12:22,725 I see. Just to make things clear for, 313 00:12:23,044 --> 00:12:25,284 if our listeners aren't that familiar with the 314 00:12:25,284 --> 00:12:27,065 product properties of semiconductors, 315 00:12:27,605 --> 00:12:30,804 when you talk about zero one, you're talking 316 00:12:30,804 --> 00:12:31,304 about, 317 00:12:32,245 --> 00:12:33,704 the fact that you can make 318 00:12:35,740 --> 00:12:37,500 a a a a a transistor or a 319 00:12:37,500 --> 00:12:40,000 switch or something that can toggle between 320 00:12:40,379 --> 00:12:41,279 two distinct 321 00:12:41,660 --> 00:12:44,220 states. And that sort of forms the basis 322 00:12:44,220 --> 00:12:45,679 of of all our computers. 323 00:12:46,059 --> 00:12:47,200 Whereas with graphene, 324 00:12:48,620 --> 00:12:50,164 there there aren't the 325 00:12:50,625 --> 00:12:51,764 two distinct states 326 00:12:52,225 --> 00:12:54,245 if you make a transistor. Is that right? 327 00:12:54,384 --> 00:12:55,845 That's right. That's right. So 328 00:12:57,024 --> 00:12:57,764 let's say, 329 00:12:58,225 --> 00:13:01,184 yes, that you can with some tweaks. You 330 00:13:01,184 --> 00:13:03,759 can do that in graphene as well. But 331 00:13:03,759 --> 00:13:05,919 let's say that the zero and one, the 332 00:13:05,919 --> 00:13:09,299 the two bits that they use to process 333 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,459 regular information nowadays in our computers, 334 00:13:12,799 --> 00:13:14,339 are not so well defined. 335 00:13:14,799 --> 00:13:15,299 So 336 00:13:15,615 --> 00:13:18,335 somehow it's hard to understand whether you're looking 337 00:13:18,335 --> 00:13:20,174 at a zero or a one. At least 338 00:13:20,174 --> 00:13:22,254 it's harder than it's in tanks and sulfide 339 00:13:22,254 --> 00:13:24,674 where those two states are very well separated. 340 00:13:25,134 --> 00:13:27,534 And so you can actually it's like the 341 00:13:27,534 --> 00:13:29,600 the Morse code. You know? You can have 342 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,040 a, like, a zero one sequence that is 343 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,759 encoding a message, and you are sure that 344 00:13:34,759 --> 00:13:36,700 the message you're seeing is the right one. 345 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,139 I see. And and what about hexagonal 346 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,794 boron nitride? Is that is that a a 347 00:13:42,794 --> 00:13:46,475 newer material for you that you've you've just 348 00:13:46,475 --> 00:13:48,475 started working on, or have you been working 349 00:13:48,475 --> 00:13:50,095 on that for a while as well? 350 00:13:50,475 --> 00:13:53,054 So it depends because hexagonal 351 00:13:54,154 --> 00:13:55,054 boron nitride 352 00:13:56,220 --> 00:13:59,419 is the the elephant in the room in 353 00:13:59,419 --> 00:14:01,360 the in the two d materials business. 354 00:14:01,899 --> 00:14:04,080 So we have seen in the past years 355 00:14:04,299 --> 00:14:07,820 a number of physical phenomena that are that 356 00:14:07,820 --> 00:14:09,735 are hosted by two d materials. Okay? 357 00:14:10,514 --> 00:14:12,835 Reason for in 2018, there was, like, the 358 00:14:12,835 --> 00:14:13,335 superconductivity 359 00:14:15,475 --> 00:14:17,095 that emerged when you have twisted 360 00:14:17,475 --> 00:14:19,254 layers of graphene. 361 00:14:20,195 --> 00:14:22,595 There's nothing of that that you can see 362 00:14:22,595 --> 00:14:24,134 if you don't send with your 363 00:14:24,970 --> 00:14:26,509 between hexagonal and boron nitride. 364 00:14:26,970 --> 00:14:28,970 Exagger and boron nitride, like, let's say you 365 00:14:28,970 --> 00:14:29,710 have your, 366 00:14:30,090 --> 00:14:32,330 your layer and you have hexagonal boron nitride 367 00:14:32,330 --> 00:14:34,490 on top and on bottom, and then you 368 00:14:34,490 --> 00:14:36,889 find the perfect environment for two d materials 369 00:14:36,889 --> 00:14:38,284 to to thrive. Okay? 370 00:14:39,384 --> 00:14:41,625 Now that's the caveat, though, because all of 371 00:14:41,625 --> 00:14:43,804 that is done with, exfoliated 372 00:14:44,264 --> 00:14:45,085 boron nitride. 373 00:14:45,544 --> 00:14:46,924 So there's, one 374 00:14:47,464 --> 00:14:49,565 big group in Japan and professor, 375 00:14:50,184 --> 00:14:52,920 Watanabe and Taniguchi from the National Institute of 376 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:53,740 Material Science 377 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,460 that basically provided 378 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,080 that boron nitride to the community to the 379 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,559 whole community, which was great because it allowed 380 00:15:01,559 --> 00:15:04,300 us to really do a lot of exciting 381 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:04,904 physics 382 00:15:05,865 --> 00:15:06,764 with technically 383 00:15:07,305 --> 00:15:08,285 a scotch tape. 384 00:15:08,745 --> 00:15:10,904 Okay? The this is like a very democratic 385 00:15:10,904 --> 00:15:13,305 way of doing science. You don't you don't 386 00:15:13,305 --> 00:15:16,825 need big machinery to access exotic physics, exotic 387 00:15:16,825 --> 00:15:17,690 phenomena. And 388 00:15:19,669 --> 00:15:21,990 but then what if you wanna bring that 389 00:15:21,990 --> 00:15:23,850 that that effects, those phenomena 390 00:15:24,549 --> 00:15:26,970 to the market, to the scalable application? 391 00:15:27,350 --> 00:15:30,134 There's no scalable boron nitride. Right? 392 00:15:30,615 --> 00:15:32,934 So one of the, I used boron nitride 393 00:15:32,934 --> 00:15:35,254 Scotch tape voice. Like, I've done some of 394 00:15:35,254 --> 00:15:37,735 my devices with, like, a escalated boron nitride. 395 00:15:37,735 --> 00:15:38,235 But 396 00:15:38,695 --> 00:15:41,174 now I'm working on the I just started 397 00:15:41,174 --> 00:15:42,315 working on the synthesis 398 00:15:42,629 --> 00:15:43,129 of, 399 00:15:43,990 --> 00:15:45,450 boron nitride large scale. 400 00:15:45,990 --> 00:15:46,389 And, 401 00:15:46,790 --> 00:15:50,309 that's being done something in in the past. 402 00:15:50,309 --> 00:15:52,570 People have been working on scaling, 403 00:15:53,590 --> 00:15:54,809 their boron nitride 404 00:15:55,964 --> 00:15:56,464 production. 405 00:15:57,485 --> 00:15:59,825 The quality is still not quite there yet. 406 00:16:00,764 --> 00:16:02,845 Many, many attempts have been done. There are 407 00:16:02,845 --> 00:16:05,024 some, like, reports of high quality, 408 00:16:06,284 --> 00:16:06,784 CBD, 409 00:16:07,245 --> 00:16:08,909 chemical vapor deposition boron 410 00:16:09,629 --> 00:16:12,190 nitride, but it's still not there. And this 411 00:16:12,190 --> 00:16:13,149 is something that, 412 00:16:14,269 --> 00:16:16,190 I think it's like the the the the 413 00:16:16,190 --> 00:16:18,829 holy grail of the of two d materials 414 00:16:18,829 --> 00:16:20,350 at this point is to find the right 415 00:16:20,589 --> 00:16:21,970 let's call it the dielectric, 416 00:16:22,509 --> 00:16:25,075 the right substrate. The three materials are 417 00:16:25,454 --> 00:16:27,934 ideally, like, the floating vacuum. Right? But they 418 00:16:27,934 --> 00:16:28,754 need to be 419 00:16:29,134 --> 00:16:30,274 put onto something. 420 00:16:30,815 --> 00:16:33,214 And that's something has been always at boron 421 00:16:33,214 --> 00:16:34,434 nitride. Exceptionally, 422 00:16:34,815 --> 00:16:37,534 other strategies have been adopted. There are other 423 00:16:37,534 --> 00:16:38,355 flat substrates. 424 00:16:39,490 --> 00:16:42,070 But if you really wanna have the 425 00:16:42,769 --> 00:16:44,709 pristine properties of any material, 426 00:16:45,089 --> 00:16:47,269 so far, the boron nitride is unmatched. 427 00:16:48,289 --> 00:16:50,690 I see. So that's so so you so 428 00:16:50,690 --> 00:16:53,215 so to create a practical device, you you 429 00:16:53,215 --> 00:16:54,914 have to be able to manufacture it 430 00:16:55,294 --> 00:16:57,554 in a similar way in in a chip, 431 00:16:59,215 --> 00:17:01,154 processing facility. And 432 00:17:01,695 --> 00:17:03,475 I suppose the the 433 00:17:03,855 --> 00:17:06,015 the the problem that you have is that 434 00:17:06,015 --> 00:17:07,394 once you put your 435 00:17:07,789 --> 00:17:09,250 lovely two d material 436 00:17:09,869 --> 00:17:10,929 onto a substrate, 437 00:17:11,230 --> 00:17:13,169 it's not two d anymore. 438 00:17:13,630 --> 00:17:16,289 So you have to find a substrate that 439 00:17:17,069 --> 00:17:17,890 will hold 440 00:17:18,669 --> 00:17:20,990 the two d material, but not hold it 441 00:17:20,990 --> 00:17:21,650 so tightly 442 00:17:22,234 --> 00:17:24,394 that it changes it into a three d 443 00:17:24,394 --> 00:17:26,575 material. Is that is that a big challenge? 444 00:17:27,275 --> 00:17:28,414 It is it is 445 00:17:28,875 --> 00:17:30,815 a a a big deal. Yes. And, 446 00:17:31,355 --> 00:17:33,355 so the fact that as as I said 447 00:17:33,355 --> 00:17:35,630 at the beginning, having a two d materials 448 00:17:35,630 --> 00:17:38,029 means that it is actually really sensitive to 449 00:17:38,029 --> 00:17:38,769 the surrounding, 450 00:17:39,710 --> 00:17:41,630 to its surroundings. So if you place it 451 00:17:41,630 --> 00:17:44,429 on silicon oxide so transistor these days are 452 00:17:44,429 --> 00:17:47,089 made of, silicon and silicon oxide 453 00:17:48,535 --> 00:17:49,035 structures. 454 00:17:49,494 --> 00:17:50,875 Silicon oxide is rough. 455 00:17:52,055 --> 00:17:54,775 Like, not rough as we might think of, 456 00:17:54,775 --> 00:17:57,734 like mountains rough. But it for for something 457 00:17:57,734 --> 00:17:59,994 that is one atom thick, it is rough. 458 00:18:00,375 --> 00:18:02,315 And so they create this creates inhomogeneities 459 00:18:04,250 --> 00:18:06,650 that make the two d material they're still 460 00:18:06,650 --> 00:18:08,329 two d in that sense because it you 461 00:18:08,329 --> 00:18:09,210 will still have, like, 462 00:18:09,849 --> 00:18:12,329 their their properties being confined to the graphene 463 00:18:12,329 --> 00:18:13,789 layer if you're talking graphene, 464 00:18:14,169 --> 00:18:14,669 but 465 00:18:15,049 --> 00:18:15,950 it will be 466 00:18:16,730 --> 00:18:18,964 affected a lot by the substrate 467 00:18:19,265 --> 00:18:20,724 being so inhomogeneous. 468 00:18:21,345 --> 00:18:24,325 Boronitride, on the other sense, is as flat 469 00:18:24,545 --> 00:18:25,684 as as graphene. 470 00:18:26,144 --> 00:18:28,464 And if you have many main layers, it 471 00:18:28,464 --> 00:18:31,730 can protect it from the surrounding environment. So 472 00:18:31,730 --> 00:18:34,230 it's basically unperturbed graph. 473 00:18:34,769 --> 00:18:36,630 Now, again, depends what 474 00:18:37,170 --> 00:18:39,090 one wants to see because if we are 475 00:18:39,090 --> 00:18:41,570 interested in just like the transport properties of 476 00:18:41,570 --> 00:18:42,070 graphene, 477 00:18:42,609 --> 00:18:45,410 it still is an incredible conductor even on 478 00:18:45,410 --> 00:18:46,904 silicon oxide. No problem. 479 00:18:47,384 --> 00:18:49,865 But if you're interested in taking advantage of 480 00:18:49,865 --> 00:18:50,605 the superconductivity 481 00:18:52,265 --> 00:18:54,825 phase as we as we talked before for 482 00:18:54,825 --> 00:18:55,965 the twisted system, 483 00:18:56,345 --> 00:18:58,585 that might be much more challenging on a 484 00:18:58,585 --> 00:18:59,565 silicon oxide. 485 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:01,799 Ship. I see. And, 486 00:19:02,599 --> 00:19:03,339 my understanding 487 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:04,299 is that 488 00:19:04,759 --> 00:19:05,980 a lot of your research 489 00:19:07,079 --> 00:19:07,320 is, 490 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,859 looking at ways to to address this challenge, 491 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:11,980 and you use 492 00:19:12,285 --> 00:19:13,505 artificial intelligence 493 00:19:13,965 --> 00:19:15,904 and other computational techniques 494 00:19:16,605 --> 00:19:17,265 to develop 495 00:19:17,805 --> 00:19:20,525 new two d materials and in such a 496 00:19:20,525 --> 00:19:22,545 way that they can be scaled up, 497 00:19:23,404 --> 00:19:23,904 for, 498 00:19:24,445 --> 00:19:25,904 I suppose, commercial applications. 499 00:19:26,205 --> 00:19:28,519 Can you can you describe that work? 500 00:19:28,980 --> 00:19:32,500 Absolutely. So this is something that, I've been 501 00:19:32,500 --> 00:19:34,519 working on for the past couple of years. 502 00:19:35,299 --> 00:19:37,000 Just to give context, we, 503 00:19:37,779 --> 00:19:39,654 developed this technique onto 504 00:19:40,034 --> 00:19:42,694 something that we already knew how to synthesize, 505 00:19:43,075 --> 00:19:45,075 but we knew we needed a proof of 506 00:19:45,075 --> 00:19:47,894 concept that the the approach was actually valuable. 507 00:19:48,194 --> 00:19:48,674 So we 508 00:19:49,394 --> 00:19:51,414 no surprise, we synthetize some graph. 509 00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:54,169 Something that people know, 510 00:19:54,789 --> 00:19:56,470 how to do for for a long for 511 00:19:56,470 --> 00:19:57,929 a long time. And 512 00:19:58,789 --> 00:20:01,750 but then the same approach can be also 513 00:20:01,750 --> 00:20:02,890 applied to, 514 00:20:03,429 --> 00:20:05,534 boron nitride. What am I talking about? I'm 515 00:20:05,534 --> 00:20:06,575 talking about the use of, 516 00:20:07,694 --> 00:20:09,394 neural network in that sense. 517 00:20:10,095 --> 00:20:11,714 AI is a really wide, 518 00:20:12,575 --> 00:20:14,514 domain. Let's talk about neural network 519 00:20:15,054 --> 00:20:17,154 that can propose a recipe. 520 00:20:18,014 --> 00:20:18,994 Okay? They learn, 521 00:20:19,774 --> 00:20:20,789 how to propose recipes 522 00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:23,690 material. You provide a feedback 523 00:20:24,549 --> 00:20:26,170 to the to the neural network. 524 00:20:26,950 --> 00:20:29,769 And the neural network be as its parameter 525 00:20:29,910 --> 00:20:31,910 adjusted in with the method that is called 526 00:20:31,910 --> 00:20:33,684 Monte Carlo. That is, 527 00:20:34,224 --> 00:20:35,605 let's say, a stochastic 528 00:20:35,984 --> 00:20:38,545 approach. It it's a it's a method that 529 00:20:38,545 --> 00:20:41,684 has been using physics for fifty years now 530 00:20:42,065 --> 00:20:42,804 to find 531 00:20:43,184 --> 00:20:43,684 the 532 00:20:44,224 --> 00:20:44,724 minimum 533 00:20:45,105 --> 00:20:47,490 of some of some states. Let's say it's 534 00:20:48,450 --> 00:20:51,670 optimization problem. So you wanna find the the 535 00:20:52,009 --> 00:20:52,509 the 536 00:20:52,849 --> 00:20:53,670 most efficient, 537 00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:56,609 configuration of your neural network that provides the 538 00:20:56,609 --> 00:20:57,109 best, 539 00:20:58,529 --> 00:21:00,525 neural network configuration for the best 540 00:21:01,724 --> 00:21:05,105 recipe. Yes. So this is basically the the 541 00:21:05,565 --> 00:21:06,065 the 542 00:21:06,924 --> 00:21:07,984 the overall approach, 543 00:21:08,365 --> 00:21:10,765 and it works really well for the graphing 544 00:21:10,765 --> 00:21:11,265 synthesis. 545 00:21:12,045 --> 00:21:14,705 We we we recently published that. It's 546 00:21:15,929 --> 00:21:18,329 also an easy problem, though, because for the 547 00:21:18,329 --> 00:21:19,450 graphene, we use, 548 00:21:20,409 --> 00:21:21,470 silicon carbide, 549 00:21:22,250 --> 00:21:22,750 as 550 00:21:23,529 --> 00:21:25,690 a precursor for our graphene. So, basically, how 551 00:21:25,690 --> 00:21:27,224 it works is that you take a piece 552 00:21:27,224 --> 00:21:29,785 of silicon carbide. You heat it up in 553 00:21:29,785 --> 00:21:30,605 a furnace. 554 00:21:30,904 --> 00:21:32,045 The silicon atoms, 555 00:21:32,424 --> 00:21:34,424 leave the surface. The carbon atoms that are 556 00:21:34,424 --> 00:21:35,164 left behind 557 00:21:35,944 --> 00:21:36,444 form 558 00:21:36,825 --> 00:21:39,244 this carbon rich subs carbon, 559 00:21:39,865 --> 00:21:41,085 rich layer that, 560 00:21:41,545 --> 00:21:42,525 we call graphene. 561 00:21:43,009 --> 00:21:43,450 And, 562 00:21:43,890 --> 00:21:45,809 it's just like a temperature profile, so it's 563 00:21:45,809 --> 00:21:47,570 an easy task for for a neural network 564 00:21:47,570 --> 00:21:48,950 because we will also know. 565 00:21:49,730 --> 00:21:52,950 But, technically, this method that has been, developed 566 00:21:53,009 --> 00:21:53,490 by, 567 00:21:54,690 --> 00:21:55,815 doctor White Lamb at 568 00:21:56,375 --> 00:21:57,754 Berkeley National Lab 569 00:21:58,054 --> 00:21:58,554 is, 570 00:21:59,335 --> 00:22:01,815 can be applied for multiple parameters. So you 571 00:22:01,815 --> 00:22:04,634 can tune temperature, mass flow, pressure, 572 00:22:05,254 --> 00:22:05,754 and 573 00:22:06,294 --> 00:22:08,534 we're trying to implement that for this synthesis 574 00:22:08,534 --> 00:22:09,869 of boron nitride. Yes. 575 00:22:10,490 --> 00:22:12,409 I see. And and can you talk a 576 00:22:12,409 --> 00:22:13,630 bit more about, 577 00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:16,750 about your work in the lab? What sort 578 00:22:17,049 --> 00:22:19,869 of experimental techniques that you use to create 579 00:22:19,929 --> 00:22:21,069 and characterize 580 00:22:21,929 --> 00:22:24,089 two d materials? I mean, I'm guessing that 581 00:22:24,089 --> 00:22:26,945 you're you're using things like electron microscopes 582 00:22:27,325 --> 00:22:28,545 and and various 583 00:22:29,005 --> 00:22:30,545 surface science techniques. 584 00:22:31,484 --> 00:22:33,825 Yes. Exactly. So as a matter of fact, 585 00:22:34,205 --> 00:22:36,384 the surface science is my background, 586 00:22:36,809 --> 00:22:40,009 and, I've been working on photomission spectroscopy for 587 00:22:40,009 --> 00:22:42,990 many years now. Spectroscopy in general, but photomission 588 00:22:43,049 --> 00:22:46,349 spectroscopy is my core business. So we have, 589 00:22:46,649 --> 00:22:48,349 an ultrasound for the mission spectroscopy, 590 00:22:49,529 --> 00:22:52,190 that is coupled to a X-ray photomission 591 00:22:52,705 --> 00:22:54,705 microscopy that is also coupled to a scanning 592 00:22:54,705 --> 00:22:57,924 tunneling microscopy and a low energy electron diffraction. 593 00:22:58,384 --> 00:23:00,725 Many names, many names, but they 594 00:23:01,424 --> 00:23:02,164 they are basically 595 00:23:02,545 --> 00:23:04,619 You must have a huge vacuum chamber then. 596 00:23:04,859 --> 00:23:07,019 We we do. We do. We do. As 597 00:23:07,019 --> 00:23:08,940 a matter of fact, yes. To be honest, 598 00:23:08,940 --> 00:23:09,599 we have 599 00:23:10,380 --> 00:23:13,119 three, four vacuum chambers. They're all connected. 600 00:23:13,819 --> 00:23:16,140 So that's a major plus for us because 601 00:23:16,140 --> 00:23:17,980 we need to prepare the sample once, and 602 00:23:17,980 --> 00:23:19,734 then we can can use all of those 603 00:23:19,734 --> 00:23:21,035 techniques all at once. 604 00:23:21,494 --> 00:23:21,994 And, 605 00:23:22,694 --> 00:23:24,474 yeah, we can basically have 606 00:23:25,654 --> 00:23:28,454 my old supervisor used to say we we 607 00:23:28,454 --> 00:23:28,954 we 608 00:23:29,494 --> 00:23:31,894 are capable of getting the full Hamiltonian of 609 00:23:31,894 --> 00:23:34,599 the system. So the electronic state, the structure, 610 00:23:34,740 --> 00:23:37,539 everything that is necessary to characterize a a 611 00:23:37,539 --> 00:23:38,039 material, 612 00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:40,259 which is great. It's a little bit slow, 613 00:23:40,259 --> 00:23:42,019 though, because you need to go to ultra 614 00:23:42,019 --> 00:23:44,684 high vacuum. We need to pump overnight. So 615 00:23:44,924 --> 00:23:46,924 in those in that feedback loop that I 616 00:23:46,924 --> 00:23:48,305 was mentioning before, 617 00:23:48,684 --> 00:23:49,904 I'm actually using, 618 00:23:50,365 --> 00:23:51,265 Raman spectroscopy. 619 00:23:51,565 --> 00:23:53,664 There is an optical spectroscopy technique, 620 00:23:54,525 --> 00:23:56,545 extremely famous for two d materials, 621 00:23:56,980 --> 00:23:59,399 which is extremely reliable in assessing 622 00:23:59,779 --> 00:24:02,500 the quality of the of the system you're 623 00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:04,919 looking at. So in that in that loop 624 00:24:04,980 --> 00:24:06,740 where I need to give a feedback to 625 00:24:06,740 --> 00:24:08,200 their to the neural network, 626 00:24:08,819 --> 00:24:11,144 I use Raman spectroscopy just because it's fast. 627 00:24:11,384 --> 00:24:13,945 So I can produce a sample scanning under 628 00:24:13,945 --> 00:24:14,605 Raman spectroscopy. 629 00:24:15,065 --> 00:24:16,904 Am I happy with it? Am I not 630 00:24:16,904 --> 00:24:18,424 happy with it? They get a better result, 631 00:24:18,424 --> 00:24:19,325 a worse result? 632 00:24:20,025 --> 00:24:20,845 I tell that 633 00:24:21,705 --> 00:24:23,545 in a way to the neural network, and 634 00:24:23,545 --> 00:24:24,690 the neural network adjust 635 00:24:25,490 --> 00:24:27,409 its parameters and produces a new recipe. And 636 00:24:27,409 --> 00:24:29,109 so that that's that's extremely, 637 00:24:29,809 --> 00:24:31,649 powerful in that sense. Of course, we need 638 00:24:31,649 --> 00:24:34,950 to post validate that because Raman can also 639 00:24:35,009 --> 00:24:36,069 hide some stuff. 640 00:24:36,529 --> 00:24:38,369 So you need to make sure that they 641 00:24:38,450 --> 00:24:41,305 you're interpreting the signal, in a in a 642 00:24:41,305 --> 00:24:42,285 in a proper way. 643 00:24:42,585 --> 00:24:45,644 So then we use the surface science characterization 644 00:24:45,785 --> 00:24:48,585 tool to have a full understanding of what 645 00:24:48,744 --> 00:24:50,424 if we're going in the right direction or 646 00:24:50,424 --> 00:24:52,680 not. But this is something that happens afterwards. 647 00:24:53,559 --> 00:24:55,080 Yes. Okay. And and so does that mean 648 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,160 you're sort of operating in a loop in 649 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:58,059 the sense that 650 00:24:58,519 --> 00:25:00,460 your AI system will 651 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:01,580 say, 652 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,840 try this, try this, and try that. You 653 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,644 will do it. Feed that information back into 654 00:25:07,644 --> 00:25:08,384 the AI. 655 00:25:08,845 --> 00:25:10,384 It will come up with a better, 656 00:25:11,805 --> 00:25:12,305 prediction 657 00:25:12,605 --> 00:25:14,924 of a material that you want, and you're 658 00:25:14,924 --> 00:25:15,744 sort of continuously 659 00:25:17,085 --> 00:25:19,884 improving and and feeding back into the machine 660 00:25:19,884 --> 00:25:22,190 learning system. Is that is that how it 661 00:25:22,190 --> 00:25:25,390 works? Yeah. Correct. Exactly. So it starts with 662 00:25:25,390 --> 00:25:27,170 a random guess by the neural network, 663 00:25:27,869 --> 00:25:28,349 and, 664 00:25:28,750 --> 00:25:31,309 I test it, and the the loop begins. 665 00:25:31,309 --> 00:25:33,230 And then I start, like, measuring and then 666 00:25:33,230 --> 00:25:36,254 provide this number, the score function to the 667 00:25:36,254 --> 00:25:36,994 to the 668 00:25:37,375 --> 00:25:39,214 to the system and then so on and 669 00:25:39,214 --> 00:25:39,875 so forth. 670 00:25:40,974 --> 00:25:42,355 It is interesting because 671 00:25:43,375 --> 00:25:45,774 it, we say we don't give any prior 672 00:25:45,774 --> 00:25:47,615 knowledge to the system. The the the main 673 00:25:47,855 --> 00:25:48,210 so 674 00:25:48,690 --> 00:25:50,789 lately, there's been a lot of, hype 675 00:25:51,250 --> 00:25:54,130 be be behind the neural net the AI 676 00:25:54,130 --> 00:25:57,009 for material science, especially be because of the 677 00:25:57,009 --> 00:25:58,069 autonomous labs 678 00:25:59,089 --> 00:26:02,130 that promise to deliver new materials, thousands of 679 00:26:02,130 --> 00:26:02,789 new materials, 680 00:26:03,205 --> 00:26:05,305 and new and since which is great, 681 00:26:05,605 --> 00:26:06,904 but it's also, like, 682 00:26:07,684 --> 00:26:10,565 heavy in terms of data. So it needs 683 00:26:10,565 --> 00:26:12,904 to be trained on hundreds of thousands 684 00:26:13,684 --> 00:26:15,180 of published results 685 00:26:16,299 --> 00:26:17,039 to understand 686 00:26:17,740 --> 00:26:20,320 what can be done, what are what crystals 687 00:26:20,380 --> 00:26:22,880 can be synthesized, how they you can 688 00:26:23,900 --> 00:26:26,539 do that. The thing is that if you're 689 00:26:26,539 --> 00:26:27,519 training something 690 00:26:28,059 --> 00:26:29,920 onto something that already exist, 691 00:26:30,335 --> 00:26:32,894 it's likely to produce something that already exists. 692 00:26:32,894 --> 00:26:33,875 So to rediscover 693 00:26:34,335 --> 00:26:36,095 a material that people already know, and this 694 00:26:36,095 --> 00:26:37,234 is something that's been, 695 00:26:38,654 --> 00:26:41,934 reported lately as a as a, let's say, 696 00:26:41,934 --> 00:26:43,474 bottleneck of this approach. 697 00:26:44,414 --> 00:26:45,154 Our approach 698 00:26:46,130 --> 00:26:46,630 is, 699 00:26:47,329 --> 00:26:49,569 it doesn't it doesn't go through that kind 700 00:26:49,569 --> 00:26:50,230 of training. 701 00:26:50,609 --> 00:26:53,349 So the the neural network learns by doing. 702 00:26:53,409 --> 00:26:55,730 So it's like a baby learning how to 703 00:26:55,730 --> 00:26:56,230 walk. 704 00:26:56,849 --> 00:26:57,349 And, 705 00:26:58,795 --> 00:27:00,955 surprisingly, it does not require so many iteration 706 00:27:00,955 --> 00:27:01,994 to reach, like, a, 707 00:27:03,035 --> 00:27:04,734 a satisfying outcome. 708 00:27:05,434 --> 00:27:05,934 And, 709 00:27:07,914 --> 00:27:09,994 but it's extremely light in terms of data 710 00:27:09,994 --> 00:27:10,410 consumption. 711 00:27:10,809 --> 00:27:11,289 And, 712 00:27:11,930 --> 00:27:14,090 this also makes it a little bit more 713 00:27:14,090 --> 00:27:15,230 transferable to 714 00:27:15,849 --> 00:27:16,349 university, 715 00:27:16,970 --> 00:27:18,269 labs that are not, 716 00:27:18,970 --> 00:27:20,990 funded with that kind of resources 717 00:27:21,769 --> 00:27:24,634 and, of the autonomous labs, of course. And, 718 00:27:25,335 --> 00:27:26,474 that makes it extremely 719 00:27:26,855 --> 00:27:29,734 appealing for for us with the scientists still 720 00:27:29,734 --> 00:27:31,275 in the loop, not outside. 721 00:27:32,295 --> 00:27:33,035 I see. 722 00:27:33,335 --> 00:27:33,835 Okay. 723 00:27:34,375 --> 00:27:35,755 And and finally, 724 00:27:36,695 --> 00:27:39,000 Antonio, I wanted to ask you about 725 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,940 quantum applications because 2025 726 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:44,220 is the international 727 00:27:44,519 --> 00:27:47,019 year of quantum science and technology. 728 00:27:48,599 --> 00:27:50,680 And I mean, I suppose in many ways, 729 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,194 two d materials are sort of ideal for 730 00:27:54,255 --> 00:27:54,755 tweaking 731 00:27:55,454 --> 00:27:58,434 the, you know, quantum properties and and discovering 732 00:27:58,494 --> 00:28:00,274 new and exciting and useful 733 00:28:00,974 --> 00:28:03,615 quantum properties. Can you can you just talk 734 00:28:03,615 --> 00:28:05,154 a little bit about how 735 00:28:05,454 --> 00:28:08,034 two d two d materials are being used, 736 00:28:08,870 --> 00:28:09,850 to both explore, 737 00:28:10,309 --> 00:28:12,650 I suppose, quantum physics and also develop 738 00:28:13,029 --> 00:28:16,250 new technologies for, I don't know, quantum computing 739 00:28:16,789 --> 00:28:18,009 or quantum sensors. 740 00:28:18,789 --> 00:28:20,650 Yes. Absolutely. So the 741 00:28:22,484 --> 00:28:22,984 quantum 742 00:28:23,445 --> 00:28:24,664 is a is 743 00:28:26,404 --> 00:28:28,825 a powerful word in that sense. Right? So 744 00:28:28,884 --> 00:28:31,465 you can say that everything is quantum. But, 745 00:28:32,484 --> 00:28:34,884 when you talk about quantum technology, you really 746 00:28:34,884 --> 00:28:35,625 want to, 747 00:28:36,164 --> 00:28:36,984 narrow down 748 00:28:40,059 --> 00:28:40,720 your field 749 00:28:41,099 --> 00:28:42,960 to something that is really explainable 750 00:28:43,259 --> 00:28:43,759 by 751 00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:49,039 something that's been accessible to people after 1925. 752 00:28:49,339 --> 00:28:50,400 Some something that 753 00:28:52,224 --> 00:28:55,265 it's really, really described by Schrodinger equation and 754 00:28:55,265 --> 00:28:56,884 everything that came after that. 755 00:28:59,025 --> 00:28:59,525 There's 756 00:29:01,265 --> 00:29:03,845 a whole field of that. The quantum sensing 757 00:29:03,904 --> 00:29:06,149 is one of these. For instance, you can 758 00:29:06,149 --> 00:29:08,390 use two d materials like boron nitride and 759 00:29:08,390 --> 00:29:09,049 the defects, 760 00:29:09,429 --> 00:29:11,589 which is interesting because now you're not really 761 00:29:11,589 --> 00:29:13,509 interested in the boron nitride per se. You're 762 00:29:13,509 --> 00:29:15,829 interested into the defects that the boron nitride 763 00:29:15,829 --> 00:29:18,409 can host, and they act as a, basically, 764 00:29:19,894 --> 00:29:22,154 a spin sensor, magnetic field sensor. 765 00:29:22,774 --> 00:29:24,554 So you can basically detect 766 00:29:24,934 --> 00:29:28,075 the presence of a magnetic field very locally, 767 00:29:28,855 --> 00:29:29,754 very precisely 768 00:29:30,454 --> 00:29:32,214 onto a material that, as we said, is 769 00:29:32,214 --> 00:29:34,869 really sensitive to the external environment. So it's 770 00:29:34,869 --> 00:29:36,490 really powerful in that sense. 771 00:29:37,109 --> 00:29:38,470 And this is just like one of a 772 00:29:38,549 --> 00:29:40,730 one of a one example. Of course, defects 773 00:29:40,950 --> 00:29:41,450 are 774 00:29:43,029 --> 00:29:45,210 present in any of those two d materials. 775 00:29:45,525 --> 00:29:48,565 And some of the TMDs, transition metal that 776 00:29:48,565 --> 00:29:50,244 you're co organized, like tanks and sulfide that 777 00:29:50,244 --> 00:29:50,744 we 778 00:29:51,045 --> 00:29:51,945 discussed earlier, 779 00:29:52,644 --> 00:29:55,125 is also a system that can host interesting 780 00:29:55,125 --> 00:29:56,805 defects because they are, 781 00:29:57,845 --> 00:29:59,305 so called two level system. 782 00:29:59,670 --> 00:30:01,830 So the two level system now if we 783 00:30:01,830 --> 00:30:04,309 go back to the to the electronics and 784 00:30:04,309 --> 00:30:05,049 how it works, 785 00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:07,590 it it sounds like zero and one. Right? 786 00:30:07,590 --> 00:30:09,529 It's two states, zero and one. 787 00:30:09,910 --> 00:30:12,549 One thumb tells you that those zero one 788 00:30:12,549 --> 00:30:15,505 are not just like zero or one, but 789 00:30:15,505 --> 00:30:17,984 are zero and one. So it's what's called 790 00:30:17,984 --> 00:30:18,644 the qubit. 791 00:30:19,265 --> 00:30:22,785 That that that way of processing information that 792 00:30:22,785 --> 00:30:23,605 it's not 793 00:30:25,184 --> 00:30:28,085 easy to interpret because it goes beyond our 794 00:30:29,109 --> 00:30:31,669 common knowledge and our common sense of the 795 00:30:31,669 --> 00:30:33,990 physics around us. So you need to get 796 00:30:33,990 --> 00:30:36,169 familiar with this concept of superposition 797 00:30:36,549 --> 00:30:38,809 of states that you can have multiple 798 00:30:39,750 --> 00:30:41,115 combination of zero ones. 799 00:30:42,075 --> 00:30:43,994 And tags and so five, for instance, is 800 00:30:43,994 --> 00:30:45,994 one of those system that can host defects 801 00:30:45,994 --> 00:30:48,795 that display those two those two states and 802 00:30:48,795 --> 00:30:50,795 can be accessed. It can be manipulated. It 803 00:30:50,795 --> 00:30:53,855 can be, used to, process quantum information. 804 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:56,859 And then there are, like, another other, 805 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,640 two d base quantum system, like, graphing based 806 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,059 Josephson junction that they used to detect microwave. 807 00:31:04,359 --> 00:31:05,819 So you have superconductors 808 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:07,339 that is this new, 809 00:31:08,119 --> 00:31:09,019 state of matter. 810 00:31:09,605 --> 00:31:10,265 Well, no. 811 00:31:10,644 --> 00:31:12,424 It's been known for a while, but it's 812 00:31:12,644 --> 00:31:13,144 a, 813 00:31:13,525 --> 00:31:16,005 it's a state of matter where current can 814 00:31:16,005 --> 00:31:18,424 flow with no resistance into a material. 815 00:31:19,684 --> 00:31:21,684 And you can create this junction where you 816 00:31:21,684 --> 00:31:23,924 place one piece of that material, connect it 817 00:31:23,924 --> 00:31:25,820 to graphene, and then connect it against with 818 00:31:25,820 --> 00:31:28,859 another superconductor. This is a Josephson junction with 819 00:31:28,859 --> 00:31:31,019 the weak link. It's called weak link. This 820 00:31:31,019 --> 00:31:32,160 graphene in the middle. 821 00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:34,880 What happens is that it's extremely sensitive 822 00:31:35,340 --> 00:31:35,840 to 823 00:31:38,220 --> 00:31:39,075 microwave radiation. 824 00:31:40,115 --> 00:31:41,894 So exploiting this 825 00:31:42,434 --> 00:31:42,934 intricate, 826 00:31:44,835 --> 00:31:46,534 collective phenomena called superconductivity, 827 00:31:46,994 --> 00:31:50,514 you can actually detect microwave radiation in a 828 00:31:50,514 --> 00:31:51,014 extremely 829 00:31:51,394 --> 00:31:51,894 powerful 830 00:31:52,434 --> 00:31:54,929 and sensitive way. And so this is something 831 00:31:54,929 --> 00:31:57,970 that is, like, unprecedented with respect to non 832 00:31:57,970 --> 00:32:00,929 quantum technologies. So it's really promising. And this 833 00:32:00,929 --> 00:32:02,150 is just to name a few. 834 00:32:02,769 --> 00:32:05,890 But there's, something that I'm really excited about 835 00:32:05,890 --> 00:32:06,450 is the, 836 00:32:06,934 --> 00:32:07,674 what's called 837 00:32:08,615 --> 00:32:09,115 quantum, 838 00:32:10,054 --> 00:32:12,315 matter. That is, these these 839 00:32:13,494 --> 00:32:15,894 new physics that arise when you place two 840 00:32:15,894 --> 00:32:18,075 different material, one on top of the other. 841 00:32:18,375 --> 00:32:20,075 And when you have 842 00:32:20,450 --> 00:32:22,869 either the same material with the lattice, 843 00:32:23,890 --> 00:32:24,390 misorientation, 844 00:32:24,690 --> 00:32:27,089 so there's a twist angle between between the 845 00:32:27,089 --> 00:32:29,730 two system or the entire different lattices, so 846 00:32:29,730 --> 00:32:30,710 with different periodicity, 847 00:32:33,009 --> 00:32:35,924 super structure arises. Okay? So you can imagine 848 00:32:35,924 --> 00:32:37,765 like an ad like a crystal. Again, it's 849 00:32:37,765 --> 00:32:41,045 a periodic arrangement of of of atoms. Okay? 850 00:32:41,045 --> 00:32:43,204 So you have, let's say, a carbon atom 851 00:32:43,204 --> 00:32:44,984 to every x angstrom. 852 00:32:45,285 --> 00:32:46,744 Okay? And that periodically. 853 00:32:47,740 --> 00:32:49,279 Now if you place another, 854 00:32:50,059 --> 00:32:51,980 carbon lattice on top of this one and 855 00:32:51,980 --> 00:32:53,579 you twist it a little bit, you will 856 00:32:53,579 --> 00:32:54,079 see 857 00:32:55,099 --> 00:32:57,660 a more structure. So a super periodicity, something 858 00:32:57,660 --> 00:32:59,599 that has a longer periodicity 859 00:33:00,539 --> 00:33:01,039 than, 860 00:33:02,855 --> 00:33:04,955 than your than your constituent crystals. 861 00:33:05,654 --> 00:33:08,715 It may look like just an optical effect, 862 00:33:09,575 --> 00:33:10,795 but that's in fact, 863 00:33:11,894 --> 00:33:13,914 electronic potential that the 864 00:33:14,695 --> 00:33:18,320 electrons feel. Okay? So they are basically immersing 865 00:33:18,380 --> 00:33:21,840 this new environment that the new periodic environment 866 00:33:21,900 --> 00:33:22,799 that they explore. 867 00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:25,119 Some of these system, 868 00:33:26,299 --> 00:33:28,059 are formed in a way that this molecule 869 00:33:28,059 --> 00:33:30,875 potential is essentially a quantum well. So 870 00:33:31,414 --> 00:33:32,795 a well that can trap 871 00:33:33,575 --> 00:33:34,474 electronic states, 872 00:33:35,174 --> 00:33:37,174 excited states, any kind of states. So you 873 00:33:37,174 --> 00:33:39,974 are making like an artificial lattice out of 874 00:33:39,974 --> 00:33:41,275 two real lattices. 875 00:33:41,734 --> 00:33:43,815 But now it's way more tunable because you 876 00:33:43,815 --> 00:33:46,669 are not limited by the chemical bond that 877 00:33:46,669 --> 00:33:48,609 keep atoms together. You can twist, 878 00:33:49,230 --> 00:33:51,309 the twist angle as much as you want 879 00:33:51,309 --> 00:33:54,109 and change its periodicity or combine different lattice 880 00:33:54,109 --> 00:33:56,109 together. You have will have an entire new 881 00:33:56,109 --> 00:33:56,609 periodicity. 882 00:33:56,990 --> 00:33:59,470 And so this opens up, like, a number 883 00:33:59,470 --> 00:34:00,210 of possibilities. 884 00:34:00,605 --> 00:34:02,445 And one of these, I think I find 885 00:34:02,445 --> 00:34:05,424 very exciting is, for instance, the quantum polaridonic, 886 00:34:07,484 --> 00:34:08,464 external polaridonic, 887 00:34:09,724 --> 00:34:11,105 field that is when 888 00:34:11,885 --> 00:34:13,985 to to have to use, like, a catchphrase 889 00:34:14,125 --> 00:34:16,385 is when light becomes matter 890 00:34:16,820 --> 00:34:18,199 or when light matters, 891 00:34:18,820 --> 00:34:22,280 meaning that, you will have a strong interaction 892 00:34:22,340 --> 00:34:24,739 between a crystal and light, and then you 893 00:34:24,739 --> 00:34:26,920 can trap the state of light and translate 894 00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:29,380 the state of light into electronic state. You 895 00:34:29,380 --> 00:34:31,460 can manipulate it, and then you can release 896 00:34:31,460 --> 00:34:33,684 it as a new form of light. 897 00:34:34,065 --> 00:34:36,085 And this is like a very exciting 898 00:34:36,545 --> 00:34:37,445 way of, 899 00:34:38,065 --> 00:34:41,605 working with light encoding information and quantum information. 900 00:34:42,785 --> 00:34:44,385 I see. Yeah. I mean, it is a 901 00:34:44,730 --> 00:34:46,489 I mean, I think the whole moire thing 902 00:34:46,489 --> 00:34:49,130 is incredible because, you know, as you say, 903 00:34:49,130 --> 00:34:51,449 you can just with a little twist, you 904 00:34:51,449 --> 00:34:52,269 can create 905 00:34:52,889 --> 00:34:56,170 a custom lattice almost with, you know, the 906 00:34:56,170 --> 00:34:58,650 separation that you want to match, I don't 907 00:34:58,650 --> 00:35:01,484 know, the the wavelength of a photon or 908 00:35:01,484 --> 00:35:03,484 or whatever. It's I mean, it is it 909 00:35:03,484 --> 00:35:05,724 is an amazing thing. And It is. It 910 00:35:05,724 --> 00:35:08,525 is. It's extremely interesting also because, again, this 911 00:35:08,525 --> 00:35:10,445 is something that you can do only with 912 00:35:10,445 --> 00:35:12,204 two d materials, at least in an easy 913 00:35:12,204 --> 00:35:12,704 way. 914 00:35:13,179 --> 00:35:16,059 Exactly. Yeah. And, this makes, this is really 915 00:35:16,059 --> 00:35:18,059 unique to the two d material world that 916 00:35:18,059 --> 00:35:18,800 other systems 917 00:35:19,099 --> 00:35:20,159 struggle to do. 918 00:35:21,179 --> 00:35:24,219 Well, that's great, Antonio. Thanks so much for 919 00:35:24,219 --> 00:35:26,460 coming on to the podcast and talking about, 920 00:35:27,155 --> 00:35:28,835 two d materials. And, 921 00:35:29,474 --> 00:35:31,255 I hope that your your research, 922 00:35:31,554 --> 00:35:32,855 using machine learning 923 00:35:33,155 --> 00:35:33,554 and, 924 00:35:34,195 --> 00:35:36,135 all that stuff you've got in the lab 925 00:35:36,434 --> 00:35:37,255 goes well. 926 00:35:37,714 --> 00:35:39,155 Thank you. Thank you so much. It's been 927 00:35:39,155 --> 00:35:40,295 a pleasure being here. 928 00:35:48,789 --> 00:35:51,449 Discover cutting edge science in minutes. 929 00:35:52,309 --> 00:35:54,010 IOP Publishing's new 930 00:35:54,389 --> 00:35:56,010 Progress In series, 931 00:35:56,715 --> 00:35:57,695 Research Highlights 932 00:35:58,315 --> 00:36:01,614 website offers quick, accessible summaries 933 00:36:01,914 --> 00:36:05,695 of top papers from leading journals, like reports 934 00:36:05,755 --> 00:36:09,295 on progress in physics and progress in energy. 935 00:36:10,110 --> 00:36:12,670 Whether you're short on time or just want 936 00:36:12,670 --> 00:36:13,410 the essentials, 937 00:36:13,950 --> 00:36:17,070 these highlights help you expand your knowledge on 938 00:36:17,070 --> 00:36:18,130 leading topics 939 00:36:18,750 --> 00:36:19,250 fast. 940 00:36:19,950 --> 00:36:21,650 Perfect for busy researchers, 941 00:36:22,244 --> 00:36:25,284 curious minds, and anyone who wants to stay 942 00:36:25,284 --> 00:36:25,784 informed 943 00:36:26,085 --> 00:36:27,384 without the deep dive. 944 00:36:27,924 --> 00:36:28,984 To start reading, 945 00:36:29,284 --> 00:36:31,784 just type progress in series 946 00:36:32,404 --> 00:36:33,464 research highlights 947 00:36:33,844 --> 00:36:35,704 into your favorite search engine 948 00:36:36,005 --> 00:36:38,500 or follow the link in the notes for 949 00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:39,239 this podcast. 950 00:36:48,099 --> 00:36:49,940 I'm afraid that's all the time we have 951 00:36:49,940 --> 00:36:51,079 for this week's podcast. 952 00:36:51,675 --> 00:36:53,454 Thanks to Antonio Rossi 953 00:36:53,755 --> 00:36:56,974 for his fascinating insights into two d materials. 954 00:36:57,515 --> 00:37:00,315 And a special thanks to our producer, Fred 955 00:37:00,315 --> 00:37:00,815 Ailes. 956 00:37:01,355 --> 00:37:04,015 We'll be back again next week when Physics 957 00:37:04,074 --> 00:37:05,579 World's Margaret Harris 958 00:37:05,980 --> 00:37:08,800 presents the first in a series of episodes 959 00:37:09,260 --> 00:37:10,800 recorded at the Heidelberg 960 00:37:11,340 --> 00:37:12,559 Laureate Forum, 961 00:37:12,860 --> 00:37:15,500 a meeting that attracts some of the best 962 00:37:15,500 --> 00:37:16,239 and brightest 963 00:37:16,860 --> 00:37:17,360 mathematicians 964 00:37:17,739 --> 00:37:19,280 and computer scientists. 965 00:37:20,074 --> 00:37:20,974 See you then.