1 00:00:07,759 --> 00:00:10,719 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly 2 00:00:10,719 --> 00:00:12,740 podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston. 3 00:00:13,184 --> 00:00:15,184 In this episode, we're going to chat about 4 00:00:15,184 --> 00:00:16,885 the 2025 5 00:00:17,265 --> 00:00:18,804 Nobel Prize for Physics, 6 00:00:19,265 --> 00:00:21,125 which has been awarded to three 7 00:00:21,504 --> 00:00:24,244 pioneers in the field of superconducting 8 00:00:24,864 --> 00:00:26,004 quantum circuits. 9 00:00:26,649 --> 00:00:28,670 But first, I'd like to acknowledge 10 00:00:29,130 --> 00:00:31,550 the generous support of American 11 00:00:31,850 --> 00:00:32,350 Elements 12 00:00:32,810 --> 00:00:34,030 for this episode. 13 00:00:35,850 --> 00:00:36,909 American Elements, 14 00:00:37,689 --> 00:00:41,149 the world's manufacturer of engineered and advanced materials. 15 00:00:43,125 --> 00:00:44,184 American elements, 16 00:00:45,284 --> 00:00:46,024 now invent. 17 00:00:51,045 --> 00:00:53,465 On Tuesday morning, John Clark, 18 00:00:53,924 --> 00:00:55,225 Michelle Devoret, 19 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:57,020 and John Martinez 20 00:00:57,479 --> 00:01:00,460 bagged this year's Nobel Prize for Physics 21 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:01,739 for the discovery 22 00:01:02,119 --> 00:01:03,100 of macroscopic 23 00:01:03,799 --> 00:01:05,579 quantum mechanical tunneling 24 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:07,420 and energy quantization 25 00:01:08,119 --> 00:01:09,579 in an electric circuit. 26 00:01:10,254 --> 00:01:12,034 That circuit was a superconducting 27 00:01:12,334 --> 00:01:14,994 device called a Josephson junction, 28 00:01:15,454 --> 00:01:18,015 and their work, which was done in the 29 00:01:18,015 --> 00:01:18,994 nineteen eighties, 30 00:01:19,295 --> 00:01:20,435 has led directly 31 00:01:20,814 --> 00:01:23,314 to a leading family of nascent 32 00:01:23,694 --> 00:01:24,834 quantum computers 33 00:01:25,299 --> 00:01:28,579 that are being developed by tech giants and 34 00:01:28,579 --> 00:01:29,799 startups alike. 35 00:01:30,659 --> 00:01:32,200 These use superconducting 36 00:01:32,659 --> 00:01:36,359 circuits as quantum bits, and their physical form, 37 00:01:36,659 --> 00:01:37,159 resembling 38 00:01:37,459 --> 00:01:38,200 a glittering 39 00:01:38,500 --> 00:01:39,719 copper chandelier, 40 00:01:40,355 --> 00:01:43,174 has become an icon of quantum computing. 41 00:01:44,275 --> 00:01:46,995 To chat about this year's laureates and the 42 00:01:46,995 --> 00:01:47,895 wide reaching 43 00:01:48,355 --> 00:01:49,814 scientific and technological 44 00:01:50,435 --> 00:01:52,055 consequences of their work, 45 00:01:52,435 --> 00:01:54,935 I'm joined by Ilana Whisby, 46 00:01:55,530 --> 00:01:57,230 who is a quantum physicist, 47 00:01:58,010 --> 00:01:59,310 deep tech entrepreneur, 48 00:01:59,849 --> 00:02:00,670 and former 49 00:02:01,129 --> 00:02:01,629 CEO 50 00:02:02,010 --> 00:02:02,989 of Oxford 51 00:02:03,290 --> 00:02:04,349 Quantum Circuits. 52 00:02:04,810 --> 00:02:05,709 Hi, Ilana. 53 00:02:06,010 --> 00:02:07,310 Welcome to the podcast. 54 00:02:08,215 --> 00:02:09,914 Hi. Thanks so much for having me. 55 00:02:10,375 --> 00:02:12,534 Yeah. Thanks for coming on, Alana. 56 00:02:12,854 --> 00:02:14,634 You know, when when we thought about 57 00:02:14,935 --> 00:02:16,854 how to cover this in the podcast, I 58 00:02:16,854 --> 00:02:17,914 was really keen 59 00:02:18,215 --> 00:02:19,354 on getting somebody, 60 00:02:20,055 --> 00:02:21,914 with a sort of industrial 61 00:02:22,215 --> 00:02:23,275 commercial background 62 00:02:23,740 --> 00:02:26,139 and a bit of experience with the sort 63 00:02:26,139 --> 00:02:27,439 of quantum technology 64 00:02:27,740 --> 00:02:31,259 that these, three laureates developed. Because I know 65 00:02:31,259 --> 00:02:33,180 it's, you know, it's it's it's had a 66 00:02:33,180 --> 00:02:34,319 very important 67 00:02:34,860 --> 00:02:35,360 implications 68 00:02:35,659 --> 00:02:38,620 in the, sort of, quantum computing industry. So 69 00:02:38,620 --> 00:02:39,555 it's really great, 70 00:02:40,275 --> 00:02:41,414 to have you on. 71 00:02:41,794 --> 00:02:44,534 And as someone who's worked with superconducting 72 00:02:45,314 --> 00:02:47,555 qubits, I'm guessing that you're very pleased with 73 00:02:47,555 --> 00:02:50,215 this Nobel Prize. You seemed very pleased yesterday 74 00:02:50,354 --> 00:02:52,614 when I first contacted you about it. 75 00:02:53,049 --> 00:02:55,289 Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, the whole the whole 76 00:02:55,289 --> 00:02:58,489 field, the whole ecosystem is obviously delighted. I 77 00:02:58,489 --> 00:03:00,509 can probably talk on behalf of them 78 00:03:00,810 --> 00:03:02,189 at that point in time. 79 00:03:02,729 --> 00:03:04,750 I mean, really because the prize recognises, 80 00:03:06,534 --> 00:03:09,014 the experiment, really, that was a foundation for 81 00:03:09,014 --> 00:03:09,514 turning 82 00:03:09,814 --> 00:03:11,675 a theory about atoms 83 00:03:12,375 --> 00:03:15,435 into the field we have today with, superconducting 84 00:03:15,814 --> 00:03:17,189 quantum circuits, which 85 00:03:17,510 --> 00:03:20,969 underpins quantum computing and and so, so many 86 00:03:21,510 --> 00:03:24,409 other things. So, yeah, we're certainly absolutely, absolutely 87 00:03:24,469 --> 00:03:25,530 delighted, especially 88 00:03:26,150 --> 00:03:26,650 considering, 89 00:03:27,189 --> 00:03:29,205 it's the international year of quantum. 90 00:03:30,085 --> 00:03:32,004 So I think the timing as well is 91 00:03:32,004 --> 00:03:32,905 is particularly, 92 00:03:33,444 --> 00:03:35,064 particularly poignant for us. 93 00:03:35,685 --> 00:03:38,004 That's right. Yeah. I it's we we you 94 00:03:38,004 --> 00:03:40,104 know, on Physics World, we do make predictions 95 00:03:40,165 --> 00:03:42,245 every year about who's going to win the 96 00:03:42,245 --> 00:03:43,685 the Nobel Prize. And, 97 00:03:44,330 --> 00:03:46,750 and this year, you know, I think possibly 98 00:03:46,810 --> 00:03:48,650 influenced by the fact that it is the 99 00:03:48,650 --> 00:03:50,909 International Year of Quantum Science and Technology. 100 00:03:51,849 --> 00:03:54,650 We did go for a quantum prize, but, 101 00:03:54,650 --> 00:03:56,490 of course, we got we we we were 102 00:03:56,490 --> 00:03:58,330 completely wrong. We we thought it was gonna 103 00:03:58,330 --> 00:03:59,069 be quantum 104 00:03:59,465 --> 00:04:01,004 algorithms, you know, the theory 105 00:04:01,305 --> 00:04:03,625 of quantum computing. And instead, of course, it 106 00:04:03,625 --> 00:04:04,925 was the exact opposite. 107 00:04:06,185 --> 00:04:08,344 It was the people who did the hard 108 00:04:08,344 --> 00:04:08,844 work, 109 00:04:09,465 --> 00:04:10,525 and and built, 110 00:04:11,385 --> 00:04:13,724 I suppose, the the some of the earliest, 111 00:04:14,389 --> 00:04:14,889 qubits. 112 00:04:15,590 --> 00:04:16,089 So 113 00:04:16,470 --> 00:04:19,029 can you explain how the work done in 114 00:04:19,029 --> 00:04:20,569 the eighties by Clark, 115 00:04:21,750 --> 00:04:22,250 Devore, 116 00:04:22,790 --> 00:04:23,689 and Martinez 117 00:04:24,310 --> 00:04:25,769 has led to the superconducting 118 00:04:26,470 --> 00:04:27,850 qubits and processors 119 00:04:28,584 --> 00:04:30,504 that we have today. So what did they 120 00:04:30,504 --> 00:04:32,985 do back then? And and, how did it 121 00:04:32,985 --> 00:04:33,784 lead to, 122 00:04:34,745 --> 00:04:36,604 the quantum computers of today? 123 00:04:36,985 --> 00:04:38,764 Yeah. I mean, I can I can certainly 124 00:04:38,985 --> 00:04:40,904 do my best to whiz you through a 125 00:04:40,904 --> 00:04:43,144 little bit of history, but also then, of 126 00:04:43,144 --> 00:04:45,629 course, the impact that it's had, in shaping 127 00:04:45,629 --> 00:04:48,029 today's industry as well as kind of fields? 128 00:04:48,029 --> 00:04:48,529 But 129 00:04:48,830 --> 00:04:50,830 I think maybe if I zoom out and 130 00:04:50,830 --> 00:04:52,290 do a bit of history first, 131 00:04:52,830 --> 00:04:55,230 but before I do that, that verdict upfront, 132 00:04:55,230 --> 00:04:56,264 what they actually did, 133 00:04:57,305 --> 00:05:00,525 between Clark, Taberae, and Martinez is prove effectively 134 00:05:00,585 --> 00:05:01,884 that a manmade 135 00:05:02,665 --> 00:05:03,805 electronic circuit, 136 00:05:04,824 --> 00:05:08,045 can behave as one quantum object. 137 00:05:08,585 --> 00:05:11,180 So that single result is really what has 138 00:05:11,180 --> 00:05:13,199 led us to be able to engineer, 139 00:05:14,220 --> 00:05:16,699 quantum behaviour on chips, which is obviously the 140 00:05:16,699 --> 00:05:17,839 field of superconducting 141 00:05:18,379 --> 00:05:19,360 quantum circuits, 142 00:05:20,379 --> 00:05:21,199 which underpins 143 00:05:21,544 --> 00:05:23,944 a huge amount of the quantum computing industry 144 00:05:23,944 --> 00:05:25,564 and and how it runs today. 145 00:05:26,745 --> 00:05:28,824 So we just take a a quick step 146 00:05:28,824 --> 00:05:31,144 back. But before the nineteen eighties, I think 147 00:05:31,144 --> 00:05:33,384 it's probably worth putting it a little bit 148 00:05:33,384 --> 00:05:35,165 into context of what we knew 149 00:05:35,699 --> 00:05:38,019 already, kind of the ecosystem that they were 150 00:05:38,019 --> 00:05:39,000 operating in. 151 00:05:40,100 --> 00:05:41,879 So if we start they had superconductivity. 152 00:05:42,259 --> 00:05:43,319 Right? That was understood, 153 00:05:43,779 --> 00:05:46,519 that you could cool materials and electrons 154 00:05:47,220 --> 00:05:49,404 pair up and flow in kind of Cooper 155 00:05:49,404 --> 00:05:51,324 pairs. So it was like ECS theory. This 156 00:05:51,324 --> 00:05:53,245 was kind of already a theory that was 157 00:05:53,245 --> 00:05:56,204 understood and actually earned the 1972 158 00:05:56,204 --> 00:05:57,185 Nobel Prize. 159 00:05:57,805 --> 00:05:59,254 There was also this other additional, 160 00:06:00,330 --> 00:06:01,930 concept that wasn't just a concept or a 161 00:06:01,930 --> 00:06:04,350 theory. It was also demonstrated in experimentation. 162 00:06:04,810 --> 00:06:05,550 And that was 163 00:06:05,930 --> 00:06:08,589 that those Cooper pairs can start tunnelling 164 00:06:08,889 --> 00:06:10,910 and you can use tunnelling as a tool. 165 00:06:11,050 --> 00:06:13,165 What that really means is that this kind 166 00:06:13,165 --> 00:06:16,444 of quantum mechanical effect allows particles to slip 167 00:06:16,444 --> 00:06:17,665 through barriers. 168 00:06:18,524 --> 00:06:20,785 And it was used as this measuring 169 00:06:21,324 --> 00:06:21,824 instrument. 170 00:06:23,165 --> 00:06:24,145 In semiconductors, 171 00:06:25,669 --> 00:06:28,469 it was shown in in devices there. There 172 00:06:28,469 --> 00:06:31,050 was also tunnel junctions for spectrometers 173 00:06:31,509 --> 00:06:33,909 in the superconducting kind of energy gap piece. 174 00:06:33,909 --> 00:06:35,930 And of course, Brian Josephson 175 00:06:36,629 --> 00:06:37,849 had first predicted 176 00:06:38,149 --> 00:06:39,930 that there was this superconducting 177 00:06:41,185 --> 00:06:41,685 insulator, 178 00:06:41,985 --> 00:06:42,485 superconducting 179 00:06:42,865 --> 00:06:44,805 kind of stack that could be created, 180 00:06:45,345 --> 00:06:47,925 which we call the the Josephson junction, 181 00:06:48,944 --> 00:06:51,524 in which pairs of electrons could tunnel 182 00:06:51,824 --> 00:06:52,324 together, 183 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,919 in a a zero voltage super current. And, 184 00:06:55,919 --> 00:06:57,699 effectively, you can have, 185 00:06:58,319 --> 00:07:00,399 this kind of tunnelling effect. And that was 186 00:07:00,399 --> 00:07:00,899 demonstrated 187 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,220 already within what we call SQUIDs, 188 00:07:04,079 --> 00:07:05,939 which were very, very sensitive, 189 00:07:06,879 --> 00:07:07,379 magnetometers. 190 00:07:08,235 --> 00:07:10,555 And again, that one was also recognized by 191 00:07:10,555 --> 00:07:11,594 the 1973 192 00:07:11,594 --> 00:07:14,154 Nobel prize. So I think all of this 193 00:07:14,154 --> 00:07:15,454 is really useful background 194 00:07:16,154 --> 00:07:16,654 context, 195 00:07:17,514 --> 00:07:19,454 as to the environment, 196 00:07:20,474 --> 00:07:22,720 that these three were kind of operating in. 197 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,019 But the question that 198 00:07:24,399 --> 00:07:26,560 they really went out to answer was was 199 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,579 a bigger question. It was like, can 200 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:30,819 an electrical circuit itself 201 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:32,500 show 202 00:07:32,879 --> 00:07:33,379 unmistakably 203 00:07:34,079 --> 00:07:35,060 quantum behavior 204 00:07:35,439 --> 00:07:36,579 in the same way 205 00:07:36,879 --> 00:07:37,785 that an atom does? 206 00:07:38,584 --> 00:07:40,985 And that question is super important because if 207 00:07:40,985 --> 00:07:42,985 the answer to that is yes, which effectively 208 00:07:42,985 --> 00:07:44,845 they were able to go out and prove, 209 00:07:45,305 --> 00:07:45,805 then 210 00:07:46,105 --> 00:07:48,524 that would basically mean you can create 211 00:07:48,904 --> 00:07:49,404 human 212 00:07:49,865 --> 00:07:50,365 artificial 213 00:07:50,904 --> 00:07:51,404 atoms 214 00:07:52,459 --> 00:07:54,079 mechanically engineered through 215 00:07:54,699 --> 00:07:55,839 electronic circuits. 216 00:07:57,660 --> 00:07:58,160 So. 217 00:07:58,939 --> 00:07:59,439 Really 218 00:07:59,979 --> 00:08:02,060 the team, when the three guys were over 219 00:08:02,060 --> 00:08:03,919 in Berkeley, they asked that question. 220 00:08:04,860 --> 00:08:05,360 And 221 00:08:06,145 --> 00:08:07,504 that question was really at that point in 222 00:08:07,504 --> 00:08:09,504 time, can it behave like a single quantum 223 00:08:09,504 --> 00:08:11,345 object? And what they did was they ran 224 00:08:11,345 --> 00:08:13,685 very tightly shielded, very kind of complex 225 00:08:13,985 --> 00:08:17,425 engineering to fully characterise this kind of experiment. 226 00:08:17,425 --> 00:08:18,865 And what they were able to prove is 227 00:08:18,865 --> 00:08:21,590 is two key facts that classical physics 228 00:08:22,210 --> 00:08:23,189 could not explain. 229 00:08:24,689 --> 00:08:27,810 The first was this concept of macroscopic quantum 230 00:08:27,810 --> 00:08:29,670 tunneling. So below 231 00:08:30,050 --> 00:08:32,049 specific temperature, they had this so that you 232 00:08:32,049 --> 00:08:33,834 can't put it into context. They had a 233 00:08:33,834 --> 00:08:34,334 superconducting 234 00:08:34,634 --> 00:08:35,134 circuit, 235 00:08:35,595 --> 00:08:36,495 probably within 236 00:08:36,875 --> 00:08:37,534 a a cryostat, 237 00:08:37,914 --> 00:08:39,355 a a very cool type, 238 00:08:39,754 --> 00:08:41,615 environment where you had your, 239 00:08:42,955 --> 00:08:45,375 your your metal, in a a superconducting, 240 00:08:46,875 --> 00:08:48,014 low TC manner. 241 00:08:49,210 --> 00:08:50,730 And what they were able to do was 242 00:08:50,730 --> 00:08:51,549 create an engineer, 243 00:08:52,009 --> 00:08:53,149 single trace in junction. 244 00:08:54,170 --> 00:08:56,009 And through that trace in junction, they were 245 00:08:56,009 --> 00:08:57,850 able to demonstrate the rate at which the 246 00:08:57,850 --> 00:08:58,350 device, 247 00:08:59,210 --> 00:09:02,429 leaves a non zero voltage state becomes independent 248 00:09:02,490 --> 00:09:02,955 on temperature. 249 00:09:03,754 --> 00:09:05,595 And what that was proving was that if 250 00:09:05,595 --> 00:09:07,754 it were an ordinary kind of thermal escape 251 00:09:07,754 --> 00:09:09,215 of this experiment they were doing, 252 00:09:10,075 --> 00:09:12,154 then colder wouldn't always been slower and it 253 00:09:12,154 --> 00:09:14,315 didn't. So this was the first point is 254 00:09:14,315 --> 00:09:16,715 that they were to prove this macroscopic quantum 255 00:09:16,715 --> 00:09:17,774 tunneling existed 256 00:09:18,190 --> 00:09:21,230 within that type of, of, of environment. The 257 00:09:21,230 --> 00:09:21,730 second 258 00:09:22,110 --> 00:09:24,910 was this discrete energy step in the circuit, 259 00:09:24,910 --> 00:09:26,930 which really underpins this nonlinearity 260 00:09:27,310 --> 00:09:29,310 for creating an artificial atom. So what they 261 00:09:29,310 --> 00:09:30,850 were able to do was apply 262 00:09:31,394 --> 00:09:33,654 these precise kind of microwave 263 00:09:34,035 --> 00:09:36,375 tones, I. E, specific microwave frequencies 264 00:09:37,555 --> 00:09:38,535 to this junction. 265 00:09:39,154 --> 00:09:41,154 And the device would would be able to 266 00:09:41,154 --> 00:09:44,035 identify, okay, this voltage change, this Cooper pair 267 00:09:44,035 --> 00:09:44,535 tunneling 268 00:09:45,190 --> 00:09:47,850 at specific frequencies at the right harmonics 269 00:09:48,230 --> 00:09:51,850 exactly where the quantum theory predicted it at. 270 00:09:51,990 --> 00:09:53,269 And they were, of course, able to do 271 00:09:53,269 --> 00:09:54,009 that reproducibly 272 00:09:54,629 --> 00:09:57,509 with, you know, significant rigor and show effectively 273 00:09:57,829 --> 00:09:59,509 sorry, it's hard to explain without going a 274 00:09:59,509 --> 00:10:00,164 little bit, 275 00:10:00,725 --> 00:10:02,485 kind of into the quantum physics, but the, 276 00:10:02,485 --> 00:10:04,725 the phase is a collective variable on this 277 00:10:04,725 --> 00:10:07,924 device, which contains billions of electrons has actually 278 00:10:07,924 --> 00:10:08,664 got quantum 279 00:10:09,445 --> 00:10:09,945 quantized 280 00:10:10,404 --> 00:10:11,464 energy and tunnels. 281 00:10:11,845 --> 00:10:13,704 So effectively proving out 282 00:10:14,230 --> 00:10:15,049 in experimentation, 283 00:10:16,070 --> 00:10:17,129 the quantum mechanics 284 00:10:17,590 --> 00:10:19,129 from atoms and ions 285 00:10:19,590 --> 00:10:20,090 to 286 00:10:20,629 --> 00:10:21,129 engineered 287 00:10:21,590 --> 00:10:24,490 superconducting circuits. And this is absolutely 288 00:10:25,029 --> 00:10:26,009 Nobel Prize 289 00:10:26,504 --> 00:10:29,165 worthy. Right? Seeing quantum behaviour 290 00:10:29,545 --> 00:10:31,245 demonstrated in a macroscopic 291 00:10:32,425 --> 00:10:33,565 manmade circuit, 292 00:10:34,105 --> 00:10:36,045 not just in kind of microscopic 293 00:10:36,504 --> 00:10:39,565 particles as we'd understood it before. Absolutely huge. 294 00:10:39,980 --> 00:10:42,860 The fact that there was complete kind of 295 00:10:42,860 --> 00:10:43,360 unambiguity 296 00:10:44,299 --> 00:10:45,440 in the evidence, 297 00:10:46,620 --> 00:10:49,740 both the temperature independent escape, as well as 298 00:10:49,740 --> 00:10:51,279 that microwave resolved 299 00:10:51,659 --> 00:10:54,319 step, they rule out classical explanations. 300 00:10:55,304 --> 00:10:57,705 And then of course, most importantly, from my 301 00:10:57,705 --> 00:10:59,725 perspective, the impact that that has, 302 00:11:00,105 --> 00:11:01,004 it unlocks 303 00:11:01,705 --> 00:11:03,884 a toolkit, a mindset that, 304 00:11:04,504 --> 00:11:07,225 Devray in particular was able to take on 305 00:11:07,225 --> 00:11:10,445 and really became the foundation for circuit QED, 306 00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:12,580 circuit quantum electrodynamics, 307 00:11:13,519 --> 00:11:16,419 which is really the foundations for modern superconducting 308 00:11:16,959 --> 00:11:17,459 qubits, 309 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:19,459 quantum limited amplifiers. 310 00:11:20,639 --> 00:11:22,100 And a part which actually 311 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:24,240 I really want to touch on as well 312 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:24,740 is 313 00:11:25,424 --> 00:11:26,485 the human aspect. 314 00:11:26,865 --> 00:11:29,184 If we, if we look at kind of 315 00:11:29,184 --> 00:11:31,205 the, the, the way that these 316 00:11:31,745 --> 00:11:32,485 three individuals 317 00:11:32,865 --> 00:11:35,044 both ran their research group, 318 00:11:36,225 --> 00:11:39,125 across Berkeley, you know, where Devore came from, 319 00:11:39,184 --> 00:11:40,919 went across to Saclay, Martinez, 320 00:11:41,879 --> 00:11:44,120 Martina's, of course, going on to to Google 321 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:44,620 and, 322 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,279 and Clark's kind of Berkeley Lab as well. 323 00:11:48,279 --> 00:11:50,600 Like, if you look at the human impact, 324 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,000 the training that they had in the fields 325 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,720 that they then kind of coined, like, I've 326 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:56,534 always thought of 327 00:11:57,254 --> 00:11:59,674 these people and this seminal paper, which 328 00:12:00,294 --> 00:12:02,315 when I was doing quantum 329 00:12:02,934 --> 00:12:03,434 physics, 330 00:12:03,894 --> 00:12:06,714 quantum mechanics before even going to the laboratory, 331 00:12:06,774 --> 00:12:08,694 these were papers I had read. And they're 332 00:12:08,694 --> 00:12:09,899 papers that pretty much 333 00:12:10,460 --> 00:12:12,860 every single person that operates in the space 334 00:12:12,860 --> 00:12:15,660 will have, have recognized, or, you know, maybe 335 00:12:15,660 --> 00:12:17,680 you've looked at Martinez's lectures, 336 00:12:18,220 --> 00:12:20,480 or Jeffrey's lecture notes. And, 337 00:12:20,860 --> 00:12:22,924 and I think it's, it's also this 338 00:12:23,625 --> 00:12:24,764 kind of human spawning 339 00:12:25,225 --> 00:12:26,365 as well as the technical 340 00:12:26,985 --> 00:12:27,485 spawning, 341 00:12:28,264 --> 00:12:30,044 that these almost like godfathers 342 00:12:30,424 --> 00:12:31,245 of the field, 343 00:12:33,144 --> 00:12:36,105 we're able to, to kind of catalyze with, 344 00:12:36,105 --> 00:12:39,379 with this work. So, Alana, the the superconducting 345 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,879 qubits that, that we see today, and, you 346 00:12:42,879 --> 00:12:43,379 know, 347 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,220 these these are used in in quantum processors 348 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,315 that are that have been developed by huge 349 00:12:50,455 --> 00:12:53,355 companies and and small startups alike. 350 00:12:53,735 --> 00:12:54,955 Are are the superconducting 351 00:12:55,975 --> 00:12:56,475 devices 352 00:12:56,934 --> 00:12:58,075 today, are they 353 00:12:58,934 --> 00:13:00,554 very similar to what, 354 00:13:01,174 --> 00:13:02,315 the Nobel laureates 355 00:13:02,660 --> 00:13:05,220 developed in the mid eighties? Or are they 356 00:13:05,220 --> 00:13:06,600 essentially better versions 357 00:13:07,220 --> 00:13:09,300 of of what they developed? Or or has 358 00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:10,680 the technology evolved 359 00:13:11,059 --> 00:13:12,600 quite a bit since then? 360 00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:16,740 Yeah. Thankfully, of course, technology has evolved, quite 361 00:13:16,740 --> 00:13:17,800 a bit from then. 362 00:13:18,584 --> 00:13:20,825 But really this is this moment was kind 363 00:13:20,825 --> 00:13:22,044 of that that first 364 00:13:22,584 --> 00:13:25,065 experimental proof point, right, that you could start 365 00:13:25,065 --> 00:13:27,705 to manufacture or create some sort of manmade 366 00:13:27,705 --> 00:13:28,205 circuit, 367 00:13:29,384 --> 00:13:31,004 with this property that 368 00:13:31,384 --> 00:13:32,845 then turns into these, 369 00:13:33,225 --> 00:13:35,680 these cubits, right, where you've got your LC 370 00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:38,100 oscillator with your specific Joseph's junction, 371 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,800 within now at first, when they first tried 372 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,040 to create cubits and control it, the quantum 373 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:43,940 information processing. 374 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,200 My understanding is that, actually, they were looking 375 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,040 at it from a different approach with with 376 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:50,524 charge based mechanisms. 377 00:13:50,985 --> 00:13:53,304 And you were really limited in terms of 378 00:13:53,304 --> 00:13:55,225 what we call the coherence time, I. E. 379 00:13:55,225 --> 00:13:57,544 The the amount of storage time that quantum 380 00:13:57,544 --> 00:13:59,644 information could be held and manipulated, 381 00:14:00,184 --> 00:14:01,964 in that type of approach. But, 382 00:14:02,519 --> 00:14:05,420 actually what came from that was further development, 383 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:07,580 into what we call the transmon. 384 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:09,259 Now the transmon, 385 00:14:09,639 --> 00:14:12,360 there's another paper, which maybe that's one as 386 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,460 well, which might be up for a future, 387 00:14:16,575 --> 00:14:17,075 quantum, 388 00:14:17,695 --> 00:14:18,175 future, 389 00:14:18,495 --> 00:14:21,215 Nobel prize, but this was really Deveray and 390 00:14:21,215 --> 00:14:23,055 his wider research group. So then you kind 391 00:14:23,055 --> 00:14:25,375 of move on to Deveray and Sholkov and 392 00:14:25,375 --> 00:14:29,075 Warrath and kind of circuit QED methods, 393 00:14:29,889 --> 00:14:32,070 which are all based off this Transmon 394 00:14:32,450 --> 00:14:34,230 type approach. But fundamentally, 395 00:14:34,610 --> 00:14:35,350 that Transmon 396 00:14:36,289 --> 00:14:37,509 includes, of course, 397 00:14:37,970 --> 00:14:40,210 all or is built upon all of the 398 00:14:40,210 --> 00:14:40,710 understanding, 399 00:14:42,370 --> 00:14:43,985 of of that original 400 00:14:44,764 --> 00:14:46,384 kind of circuit QED piece, 401 00:14:47,725 --> 00:14:48,205 but, 402 00:14:48,605 --> 00:14:50,684 is is engineered in a way that means 403 00:14:50,684 --> 00:14:52,205 that what we can do is start to 404 00:14:52,205 --> 00:14:54,924 optimise all of the different components within it. 405 00:14:55,164 --> 00:14:57,485 For example, you you couple it to a 406 00:14:57,485 --> 00:14:58,544 microwave resonator, 407 00:14:59,699 --> 00:15:01,220 so that you can start to increase their 408 00:15:01,220 --> 00:15:02,980 coherence time. You would cross some charge of 409 00:15:02,980 --> 00:15:04,519 phase. So there's 410 00:15:04,980 --> 00:15:07,139 fair amount of research that's gone on just 411 00:15:07,139 --> 00:15:08,339 to even get to the point of the 412 00:15:08,339 --> 00:15:10,759 transmon, but the transmon then, 413 00:15:11,539 --> 00:15:12,039 underpins, 414 00:15:12,524 --> 00:15:14,865 I would say, pretty much the entire superconducting 415 00:15:15,485 --> 00:15:17,105 quantum circuit space, 416 00:15:17,485 --> 00:15:20,144 today. So any quantum computer, you know, IBM, 417 00:15:20,764 --> 00:15:22,625 of course, Oxford Quantum Circuits, 418 00:15:23,324 --> 00:15:23,824 IQM, 419 00:15:24,125 --> 00:15:24,625 Rigetti, 420 00:15:25,245 --> 00:15:26,144 I think AWS. 421 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,920 They're all based on this core Transmon type 422 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:30,420 technology, 423 00:15:31,759 --> 00:15:35,379 which is from that core circuit QED toolbox 424 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,540 that was was first demonstrated here. 425 00:15:38,559 --> 00:15:38,960 And, 426 00:15:40,235 --> 00:15:43,375 can we get on to, Oxford Quantum Circuits, 427 00:15:43,914 --> 00:15:44,894 Alana? You, 428 00:15:45,195 --> 00:15:45,695 cofounded 429 00:15:46,394 --> 00:15:49,934 that UK based company in 2017, 430 00:15:50,394 --> 00:15:51,855 and, it uses 431 00:15:52,259 --> 00:15:52,759 superconducting, 432 00:15:54,019 --> 00:15:56,019 circuits. Can you can you talk a bit 433 00:15:56,019 --> 00:15:57,480 about the challenges 434 00:15:57,860 --> 00:15:58,600 of taking 435 00:15:58,980 --> 00:15:59,480 superconducting 436 00:15:59,940 --> 00:16:01,399 circuits out of the lab, 437 00:16:02,019 --> 00:16:03,399 back in 2017 438 00:16:03,460 --> 00:16:03,960 and 439 00:16:04,355 --> 00:16:04,855 creating, 440 00:16:05,475 --> 00:16:05,975 practical 441 00:16:06,514 --> 00:16:08,214 commercial systems. Was it, 442 00:16:08,595 --> 00:16:10,454 I'm guessing there were a lot of challenges 443 00:16:10,514 --> 00:16:11,894 involved in that commercialization. 444 00:16:12,995 --> 00:16:14,834 Yeah. Of course. And and for anybody in 445 00:16:14,834 --> 00:16:16,409 the space, there there still are. 446 00:16:17,370 --> 00:16:20,490 So I joined OQC, Oxford Quantum Circuits as 447 00:16:20,490 --> 00:16:23,690 founding CEO alongside Doctor. Peter Leek, from the 448 00:16:23,690 --> 00:16:25,069 Oxford physics department. 449 00:16:25,850 --> 00:16:27,929 I think this is a really great example, 450 00:16:27,929 --> 00:16:30,565 right, of where you can have a core 451 00:16:30,565 --> 00:16:32,644 technology, a core piece of IP or an 452 00:16:32,644 --> 00:16:34,184 idea that sits within academia. 453 00:16:35,044 --> 00:16:36,485 But there's a really long way to go 454 00:16:36,485 --> 00:16:38,245 and to be able to turn, you know, 455 00:16:38,245 --> 00:16:41,445 an idea or a concept or, an early 456 00:16:41,445 --> 00:16:42,004 kind of, 457 00:16:43,570 --> 00:16:45,589 piece of science through into, 458 00:16:47,009 --> 00:16:49,169 a commercial system. Right? That's a long path 459 00:16:49,169 --> 00:16:50,149 and a long journey. 460 00:16:50,929 --> 00:16:53,009 If we specifically start just looking at the 461 00:16:53,009 --> 00:16:55,970 actual qubits themselves, like the approach we were 462 00:16:55,970 --> 00:16:58,355 able to take there was how can we 463 00:16:58,355 --> 00:17:00,674 kind of utilize that deep relationship with the 464 00:17:00,674 --> 00:17:01,174 university 465 00:17:01,955 --> 00:17:04,275 whilst it's the technology is still a kind 466 00:17:04,275 --> 00:17:05,335 of early technology 467 00:17:05,714 --> 00:17:06,214 readiness 468 00:17:06,835 --> 00:17:08,674 to both prove out the physics and build 469 00:17:08,674 --> 00:17:09,960 confidence in the physics. 470 00:17:10,519 --> 00:17:11,799 And then what I was able to do 471 00:17:11,799 --> 00:17:13,559 is the CEO is come in and go, 472 00:17:13,559 --> 00:17:15,880 right. Okay. How do we now turn this 473 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,279 into an actual system? How do we de 474 00:17:18,279 --> 00:17:21,099 risk technology in university and build a stack? 475 00:17:21,399 --> 00:17:23,720 And that's a lot more than just kind 476 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:25,659 of proving out a key bit. Right? That's 477 00:17:25,994 --> 00:17:26,494 optimising, 478 00:17:27,434 --> 00:17:27,934 reproducibly 479 00:17:28,555 --> 00:17:29,375 at scale, 480 00:17:29,755 --> 00:17:31,855 but also building the rest of a computing 481 00:17:32,075 --> 00:17:36,335 stack, which requires significant kind of multi interdisciplinary 482 00:17:37,515 --> 00:17:38,974 teams pulling from 483 00:17:39,569 --> 00:17:40,069 industry, 484 00:17:41,250 --> 00:17:42,390 across the world. 485 00:17:43,169 --> 00:17:43,669 And 486 00:17:44,049 --> 00:17:46,609 of course you have the qubit itself with 487 00:17:46,609 --> 00:17:47,429 these individual, 488 00:17:48,609 --> 00:17:51,509 transmons for oxo quantum circuits. That's the coaximon, 489 00:17:51,730 --> 00:17:54,305 which was the invention from Peter Leake in 490 00:17:54,305 --> 00:17:55,684 in the physics department. 491 00:17:56,305 --> 00:17:57,985 But, of course, you then also need to 492 00:17:57,985 --> 00:17:59,265 build the rest of the stacks or the 493 00:17:59,265 --> 00:18:01,985 control hardware, the control software. And one of 494 00:18:01,985 --> 00:18:04,225 the things that I was really passionate about 495 00:18:04,225 --> 00:18:06,144 is, like, making sure that we were putting 496 00:18:06,144 --> 00:18:09,289 the customer, right, the commercial mindset at 497 00:18:09,750 --> 00:18:11,509 the forefront of everything we were doing. I 498 00:18:11,509 --> 00:18:12,970 don't think it's worth or 499 00:18:13,509 --> 00:18:16,409 correct to build technology in isolation. So 500 00:18:16,869 --> 00:18:17,509 for us, 501 00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:19,750 one of the first key milestones we did 502 00:18:19,750 --> 00:18:21,589 was prove out a kind of end to 503 00:18:21,589 --> 00:18:22,605 end vertical slice 504 00:18:23,085 --> 00:18:24,924 with the first system, which was only four 505 00:18:24,924 --> 00:18:25,424 cubits. 506 00:18:26,125 --> 00:18:27,724 But we connected up to, 507 00:18:28,125 --> 00:18:29,964 a consumer, a customer that was running an 508 00:18:29,964 --> 00:18:30,464 algorithm. 509 00:18:31,085 --> 00:18:33,005 And at each point, we've always tried to 510 00:18:33,005 --> 00:18:35,325 keep the customer at the forefront of everything 511 00:18:35,325 --> 00:18:37,565 we were doing, and that meant providing them 512 00:18:37,565 --> 00:18:38,065 access. 513 00:18:38,389 --> 00:18:39,990 You know? And when you do that, you 514 00:18:39,990 --> 00:18:40,490 get, 515 00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:43,669 you get a deeper understanding, of course, of 516 00:18:43,669 --> 00:18:44,169 the 517 00:18:44,470 --> 00:18:47,029 the challenges, both from a technical but also 518 00:18:47,029 --> 00:18:47,529 from 519 00:18:47,829 --> 00:18:48,889 a systems integration 520 00:18:49,669 --> 00:18:50,169 perspective, 521 00:18:50,789 --> 00:18:52,089 for the for the consumer. 522 00:18:52,634 --> 00:18:54,154 And at the end of the day, the 523 00:18:54,154 --> 00:18:55,134 the kind of really, 524 00:18:55,914 --> 00:18:56,654 I guess, 525 00:18:57,595 --> 00:19:00,634 challenging thing for the quantum physicist think about 526 00:19:00,634 --> 00:19:03,595 is that ultimately the consumer doesn't care whether 527 00:19:03,595 --> 00:19:04,335 it's quantum 528 00:19:04,650 --> 00:19:06,090 or not. Like, we want to be able 529 00:19:06,090 --> 00:19:07,609 to solve their problems. So you need to 530 00:19:07,609 --> 00:19:08,730 be able to find a way to zoom 531 00:19:08,730 --> 00:19:09,230 out, 532 00:19:10,250 --> 00:19:12,490 as as well and really focus on the 533 00:19:12,490 --> 00:19:14,029 type of problems that they have, 534 00:19:14,410 --> 00:19:16,509 and really think about, you know, security. 535 00:19:16,894 --> 00:19:19,154 How does this integrate into their existing workflow? 536 00:19:19,615 --> 00:19:21,214 But at the same time, you've also got 537 00:19:21,214 --> 00:19:23,855 to build from the bottom up. And, you 538 00:19:23,855 --> 00:19:26,434 know, this is true for all quantum companies 539 00:19:26,494 --> 00:19:29,054 out there today is that the systems that 540 00:19:29,054 --> 00:19:29,954 that we have 541 00:19:30,509 --> 00:19:32,430 and the, the progress that we're making with 542 00:19:32,430 --> 00:19:35,150 the, the actual, I'd say performance of the, 543 00:19:35,150 --> 00:19:37,710 the quantum bits, be it through superconducting circuits 544 00:19:37,710 --> 00:19:39,970 or NV centers or silicon or ion traps. 545 00:19:40,590 --> 00:19:42,990 No, it's, it's really improving rapidly, but we 546 00:19:42,990 --> 00:19:44,349 need to be able to do this at 547 00:19:44,349 --> 00:19:45,970 tens of thousands, if not millions 548 00:19:46,325 --> 00:19:46,984 of cubits 549 00:19:47,765 --> 00:19:48,265 reproducibly 550 00:19:48,644 --> 00:19:51,224 with high quality, with super low latency, 551 00:19:52,565 --> 00:19:54,345 in a manner that is seamless, 552 00:19:54,964 --> 00:19:57,224 and kind of integrated into 553 00:19:57,605 --> 00:20:00,184 the existing industry. And that's really challenging. 554 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,319 I think it's worth touching on, if you 555 00:20:03,319 --> 00:20:06,220 don't mind, like, the superconducting circuits in particular 556 00:20:06,279 --> 00:20:07,099 here, because 557 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,200 where you have Josephson junctions and this kind 558 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:11,880 of core piece, still one of the biggest 559 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,440 challenges is that that's the core component that's 560 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:15,339 really challenging 561 00:20:16,724 --> 00:20:18,505 to reproduce at scale, 562 00:20:19,045 --> 00:20:20,505 with with high yield. 563 00:20:21,285 --> 00:20:22,825 And it's not something that 564 00:20:23,444 --> 00:20:25,384 exists in the existing semiconductor 565 00:20:26,164 --> 00:20:26,984 supply chain, 566 00:20:27,845 --> 00:20:30,005 as a kind of methodology. So that is 567 00:20:30,005 --> 00:20:31,144 one of the biggest challenges, 568 00:20:32,490 --> 00:20:33,869 for any of the superconducting 569 00:20:34,410 --> 00:20:35,710 circuit players today. 570 00:20:36,570 --> 00:20:40,009 And you you mentioned, that superconducting circuits, they're 571 00:20:40,009 --> 00:20:41,850 they're not the only game in town when 572 00:20:41,850 --> 00:20:44,970 it comes to creating qubits and and and 573 00:20:44,970 --> 00:20:46,029 quantum processors. 574 00:20:47,345 --> 00:20:47,744 Are we 575 00:20:48,545 --> 00:20:50,404 do we are we still in the mindset 576 00:20:50,464 --> 00:20:52,164 that there is going to be one 577 00:20:52,704 --> 00:20:55,525 type of qubit technology, be it superconducting 578 00:20:55,904 --> 00:20:58,785 or something else, that's going to win out? 579 00:20:58,785 --> 00:20:59,279 Or 580 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,720 could we see a future with with a 581 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,900 number of different types of qubits 582 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,000 integrated together? So, you know, you might have 583 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:08,500 superconducting 584 00:21:09,039 --> 00:21:10,259 qubits, you might have 585 00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:14,500 optical NV qubits and trapped ions all 586 00:21:14,815 --> 00:21:17,955 in one system or connected on a quantum 587 00:21:18,255 --> 00:21:18,755 internet. 588 00:21:19,695 --> 00:21:20,195 What's 589 00:21:20,815 --> 00:21:21,535 the view, 590 00:21:22,174 --> 00:21:24,035 in the industry today about 591 00:21:24,335 --> 00:21:26,355 the, you know, the race for the ultimate 592 00:21:26,414 --> 00:21:26,914 qubit? 593 00:21:28,009 --> 00:21:28,649 Well, I think, 594 00:21:29,289 --> 00:21:31,210 maybe my view is different from the view 595 00:21:31,210 --> 00:21:32,970 across, across the industry today. So if you 596 00:21:32,970 --> 00:21:34,490 go and speak to any of these individual 597 00:21:34,490 --> 00:21:36,750 companies, of course, they'll tell you rightly so, 598 00:21:37,289 --> 00:21:40,429 why their single technology will, will, will win. 599 00:21:41,384 --> 00:21:42,984 But for me, I mean, I did my 600 00:21:42,984 --> 00:21:45,785 PhD originally in hybrid quantum systems. So I 601 00:21:45,785 --> 00:21:48,605 was doing superconducting circuits coupled with, 602 00:21:49,865 --> 00:21:50,845 spin ensembles, 603 00:21:51,545 --> 00:21:54,445 and got to work with, different spin mechanisms 604 00:21:54,585 --> 00:21:55,244 as well. 605 00:21:55,829 --> 00:21:56,329 And 606 00:21:56,950 --> 00:21:58,569 if you look at the progression 607 00:21:58,950 --> 00:22:00,890 of, say, classical compute, 608 00:22:01,509 --> 00:22:03,049 I honestly think it would be 609 00:22:03,589 --> 00:22:07,130 naive to think that any one single technology, 610 00:22:08,244 --> 00:22:09,544 or kind of underlying, 611 00:22:10,804 --> 00:22:12,585 quantum basis is going to be 612 00:22:12,884 --> 00:22:14,424 utilised for absolutely everything. 613 00:22:15,365 --> 00:22:16,884 So I don't think there's a winner take 614 00:22:16,884 --> 00:22:19,845 all, technology. I do think it's worth still 615 00:22:19,845 --> 00:22:22,345 investing in multiple different technologies. 616 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,320 And I do see a world in which 617 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:26,220 we've got 618 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,700 different underlying types of qubits, 619 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,580 optimised for different applications, 620 00:22:32,279 --> 00:22:34,600 and that they probably will be hybrid quantum 621 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:35,820 computers or networks 622 00:22:36,664 --> 00:22:37,884 in in some form, 623 00:22:38,664 --> 00:22:40,904 in in the future. So I'm a firm 624 00:22:40,904 --> 00:22:43,384 believer in in hybrid quantum systems to that 625 00:22:43,384 --> 00:22:43,884 moment. 626 00:22:45,065 --> 00:22:46,904 And I think today you've got, 627 00:22:47,464 --> 00:22:49,865 you've got a fairly good overview, don't you, 628 00:22:49,865 --> 00:22:50,365 of 629 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,140 of of of the quantum industry 630 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,519 and, you know, who who's investing what, and, 631 00:22:57,519 --> 00:23:00,580 you know, what technologies are are hot, and 632 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,980 and maybe what technologies are fading. 633 00:23:03,279 --> 00:23:06,099 How would you characterize the industry today? 634 00:23:06,585 --> 00:23:07,244 Is it, 635 00:23:07,784 --> 00:23:09,944 has it has it matured quite a bit 636 00:23:09,944 --> 00:23:11,565 from, say, 2017 637 00:23:11,784 --> 00:23:14,765 when you when you first kicked off with, 638 00:23:15,065 --> 00:23:18,105 Oxford Quantum Circuits? You know, how how has 639 00:23:18,105 --> 00:23:19,224 it changed, and, 640 00:23:19,784 --> 00:23:22,639 and where where is it heading? Yeah. For 641 00:23:22,639 --> 00:23:24,579 sure. I mean, look, when I was 642 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:25,460 first 643 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:26,500 fundraising 644 00:23:27,039 --> 00:23:29,599 and building the first quantum computers over at 645 00:23:29,599 --> 00:23:31,839 OQC, like, honestly, I should have run a 646 00:23:31,839 --> 00:23:33,220 consultancy just educating, 647 00:23:33,919 --> 00:23:35,139 consumers, investors. 648 00:23:36,245 --> 00:23:37,845 I probably would have made more money and 649 00:23:37,845 --> 00:23:38,585 more progress, 650 00:23:39,605 --> 00:23:41,684 because it was a really, really nascent space. 651 00:23:41,684 --> 00:23:43,365 Right. Consumers didn't know, 652 00:23:44,164 --> 00:23:46,245 what what the technology could could do yet. 653 00:23:46,245 --> 00:23:48,184 So there's a lot of education there. 654 00:23:49,259 --> 00:23:52,320 The investors were really still developing their thesis 655 00:23:52,380 --> 00:23:55,100 on where they would invest and understanding the 656 00:23:55,100 --> 00:23:55,600 fundamentals, 657 00:23:56,860 --> 00:23:58,320 of, of what it would take. 658 00:23:58,940 --> 00:24:00,160 Fast forward to 659 00:24:00,474 --> 00:24:00,974 today, 660 00:24:01,674 --> 00:24:02,894 that has significantly 661 00:24:03,434 --> 00:24:03,934 shifted, 662 00:24:04,315 --> 00:24:06,974 as a landscape, both from a consumer perspective 663 00:24:07,194 --> 00:24:11,595 where the early adopters, particularly across finance, across, 664 00:24:11,994 --> 00:24:13,674 materials discovery, across, 665 00:24:14,075 --> 00:24:14,575 simulation, 666 00:24:16,019 --> 00:24:17,880 of underlying kind of molecular 667 00:24:18,259 --> 00:24:18,759 dynamics, 668 00:24:19,380 --> 00:24:22,019 and and so much more across both and 669 00:24:22,019 --> 00:24:24,740 I broaden this now to to computing, sensing, 670 00:24:24,740 --> 00:24:25,480 and communications. 671 00:24:26,740 --> 00:24:29,220 The industry has has matured rapidly. Now there's 672 00:24:29,220 --> 00:24:29,684 still 673 00:24:30,245 --> 00:24:31,924 a long way to go, of course. We 674 00:24:31,924 --> 00:24:33,765 still need to make sure that we are 675 00:24:33,765 --> 00:24:34,265 building 676 00:24:34,725 --> 00:24:37,365 quantum computers that will eventually be fault tolerant 677 00:24:37,365 --> 00:24:38,985 in capability. We are still 678 00:24:39,525 --> 00:24:40,745 on the cusp of, 679 00:24:41,525 --> 00:24:43,529 kind of coming out of the the NISC, 680 00:24:43,930 --> 00:24:46,349 noisy intermediary scale quantum era 681 00:24:46,809 --> 00:24:47,309 where, 682 00:24:47,849 --> 00:24:49,450 we are pushing the boundaries of what can 683 00:24:49,450 --> 00:24:50,109 be simulated. 684 00:24:50,570 --> 00:24:52,809 But most importantly, I think you've got really 685 00:24:52,809 --> 00:24:53,710 smart end users, 686 00:24:54,650 --> 00:24:56,349 and you've also got really 687 00:24:56,650 --> 00:24:57,150 rapid 688 00:24:57,514 --> 00:24:58,654 technological development 689 00:24:59,434 --> 00:25:01,134 across lots of different underlying 690 00:25:01,674 --> 00:25:03,534 quantum technologies proving 691 00:25:04,315 --> 00:25:06,815 that we are seeing significant, 692 00:25:07,835 --> 00:25:08,335 traction, 693 00:25:10,075 --> 00:25:12,419 which which gives us confidence that we will 694 00:25:12,419 --> 00:25:12,919 meet, 695 00:25:13,299 --> 00:25:16,099 and eventually surpass kind of that quantum advantage 696 00:25:16,099 --> 00:25:18,179 point likely in the next year. If I'm 697 00:25:18,980 --> 00:25:21,539 maybe maybe that's my prediction. We'll see whether 698 00:25:21,539 --> 00:25:22,200 we're true, 699 00:25:22,659 --> 00:25:24,419 true next year or not. But I'd say, 700 00:25:24,419 --> 00:25:26,919 you know, characterizing overall, we've gone from 701 00:25:27,295 --> 00:25:28,835 we've gone from early demos, 702 00:25:30,494 --> 00:25:31,795 to a lot more maturity. 703 00:25:32,575 --> 00:25:34,575 We've got full systems. We've got a really 704 00:25:34,575 --> 00:25:35,075 competitive 705 00:25:35,934 --> 00:25:36,434 ecosystem. 706 00:25:37,134 --> 00:25:39,615 We've got a maturing market, and we've got 707 00:25:39,615 --> 00:25:40,515 a much more 708 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:42,440 smart, ready, capable, 709 00:25:44,039 --> 00:25:44,539 investor, 710 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,000 market as well. I think even the amount 711 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,000 of investment that's gone in the last '24 712 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,299 to '20 last year, like, 2024 to 2025, 713 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:54,255 I think it's, like, doubled. 714 00:25:54,654 --> 00:25:56,734 So we're seeing a lot of money, a 715 00:25:56,734 --> 00:25:57,555 lot of talent, 716 00:25:57,934 --> 00:25:59,154 and a lot of expertise, 717 00:25:59,855 --> 00:26:02,194 in the space, which is is really, truly, 718 00:26:02,654 --> 00:26:03,154 exciting. 719 00:26:04,174 --> 00:26:05,555 And what's your role, 720 00:26:05,934 --> 00:26:07,295 Elana? What are you up to at the 721 00:26:07,295 --> 00:26:09,350 moment? Are you are you are you on 722 00:26:09,350 --> 00:26:10,950 the business side of things, or are you 723 00:26:10,950 --> 00:26:11,450 back 724 00:26:11,830 --> 00:26:13,269 in in the lab, or is it a 725 00:26:13,269 --> 00:26:15,109 bit of both for you? That is a 726 00:26:15,109 --> 00:26:17,269 a great question. Thankfully for everybody, I'm not 727 00:26:17,269 --> 00:26:18,090 in a laboratory 728 00:26:19,029 --> 00:26:19,529 because 729 00:26:20,549 --> 00:26:23,025 as much as I absolutely loved being an 730 00:26:23,025 --> 00:26:23,525 experimentalist, 731 00:26:24,144 --> 00:26:26,085 I was definitely much better as a CEO 732 00:26:26,345 --> 00:26:26,845 than, 733 00:26:28,545 --> 00:26:31,125 doing the actual kind of, fabrication, 734 00:26:32,305 --> 00:26:34,465 my myself. So we will we all play 735 00:26:34,465 --> 00:26:35,285 into our strengths. 736 00:26:35,789 --> 00:26:37,490 But, yeah, right now I'm actually exploring 737 00:26:37,870 --> 00:26:40,110 a few stealth projects. Of course, it's where 738 00:26:40,110 --> 00:26:42,930 deep tech and quantum primarily meets leadership. 739 00:26:44,029 --> 00:26:46,190 So there's a number of teams in quantum 740 00:26:46,190 --> 00:26:47,410 across different technologies, 741 00:26:48,404 --> 00:26:50,164 where I'm able to help them in their 742 00:26:50,164 --> 00:26:52,424 earlier stages. There's still plenty of room, 743 00:26:53,205 --> 00:26:54,424 in in the market, 744 00:26:54,965 --> 00:26:57,285 to set up with their vision, their mission, 745 00:26:57,285 --> 00:26:58,025 their values. 746 00:26:58,884 --> 00:27:01,809 And I'm really enjoying kind of helping support 747 00:27:01,950 --> 00:27:02,690 the ecosystem 748 00:27:02,990 --> 00:27:05,309 to up and grow in that way, both 749 00:27:05,549 --> 00:27:07,009 I mean, I'm an entrepreneur. 750 00:27:07,630 --> 00:27:08,529 I am founding, 751 00:27:09,150 --> 00:27:09,970 for sure. 752 00:27:11,069 --> 00:27:13,009 But also I'm I'm really enjoying 753 00:27:13,390 --> 00:27:16,450 advising early stage teams and getting to know, 754 00:27:17,684 --> 00:27:20,505 yeah, different different teams, different setups from 755 00:27:20,884 --> 00:27:22,585 around around the world. 756 00:27:23,525 --> 00:27:25,525 And if I can kinda give a little 757 00:27:25,525 --> 00:27:26,505 a little teaser, 758 00:27:27,845 --> 00:27:28,964 I know if you know, 759 00:27:29,444 --> 00:27:29,944 Rumi's 760 00:27:30,325 --> 00:27:32,450 quote. It's is like out beyond the ideas 761 00:27:32,450 --> 00:27:34,610 of wrongdoing and right doing. There is a 762 00:27:34,610 --> 00:27:35,110 field 763 00:27:35,570 --> 00:27:36,710 and I'll be there. 764 00:27:39,730 --> 00:27:40,470 And finally, 765 00:27:41,009 --> 00:27:43,170 Elana, I'd like to sort of co opt 766 00:27:43,170 --> 00:27:46,005 you in our sort of ongoing project of 767 00:27:46,005 --> 00:27:47,944 trying to predict the next, 768 00:27:48,565 --> 00:27:51,284 Nobel Prize for Physics, something that here on 769 00:27:51,284 --> 00:27:54,244 Physics World, we well, we're we're luck we 770 00:27:54,244 --> 00:27:56,085 we luck out occasionally, I think. We get 771 00:27:56,085 --> 00:27:58,804 it right occasionally, but normally we get it 772 00:27:58,804 --> 00:27:59,304 wrong. 773 00:28:00,690 --> 00:28:03,190 Is there any research that's being done today 774 00:28:03,329 --> 00:28:04,630 in quantum physics 775 00:28:05,009 --> 00:28:08,049 that you find really exciting and you think 776 00:28:08,049 --> 00:28:10,150 could merit a future 777 00:28:10,529 --> 00:28:11,505 Nobel Prize? 778 00:28:11,825 --> 00:28:14,565 So get that quantum crystal ball out. 779 00:28:16,144 --> 00:28:18,305 Yeah. I mean, look, there's so much exciting 780 00:28:18,305 --> 00:28:18,785 work, 781 00:28:19,424 --> 00:28:19,924 happening. 782 00:28:20,384 --> 00:28:21,204 I think realistically, 783 00:28:22,384 --> 00:28:25,285 anybody who makes a reliable error corrected 784 00:28:26,190 --> 00:28:28,589 quantum computer, like the first to that, like, 785 00:28:28,589 --> 00:28:31,470 absolutely deserves absolutely deserves one because that would 786 00:28:31,470 --> 00:28:32,529 be undeniable 787 00:28:33,470 --> 00:28:33,970 value. 788 00:28:34,829 --> 00:28:36,109 I think what you said at the beginning 789 00:28:36,109 --> 00:28:39,149 about algorithms is also really important, particularly where 790 00:28:39,149 --> 00:28:41,009 you're looking at new and novel, 791 00:28:42,144 --> 00:28:44,244 error correction, error detection type schemes. 792 00:28:44,945 --> 00:28:47,184 There's a huge amount of innovation there. And 793 00:28:47,184 --> 00:28:50,224 what's kind of interesting actually is the almost 794 00:28:50,224 --> 00:28:52,164 quantum inspired impact on classical, 795 00:28:53,505 --> 00:28:56,029 improvements to algorithm development there as well. But 796 00:28:56,029 --> 00:28:57,649 for me, I mean, it's all about impact. 797 00:28:57,710 --> 00:28:59,789 So if I would love to see a 798 00:28:59,789 --> 00:29:01,710 Nobel Prize then go across to, like, if 799 00:29:01,710 --> 00:29:03,089 somebody has been able to 800 00:29:03,630 --> 00:29:04,130 make 801 00:29:04,589 --> 00:29:05,409 a a discovery, 802 00:29:06,429 --> 00:29:06,929 which 803 00:29:07,710 --> 00:29:09,470 I think for me particularly, it was like 804 00:29:09,470 --> 00:29:10,690 purpose built molecular 805 00:29:11,234 --> 00:29:12,134 qubit type, 806 00:29:14,595 --> 00:29:16,775 sorry, molecular simulation type 807 00:29:17,234 --> 00:29:19,335 manners, then I think that that would, 808 00:29:20,595 --> 00:29:21,575 100% 809 00:29:22,035 --> 00:29:22,535 deserve 810 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,240 a kind of Nobel prize. So quantum enabled 811 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:27,380 discovery in the real 812 00:29:27,759 --> 00:29:30,160 world. Sorry. It's not more more specific than 813 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,240 than that. No. That's that. I mean, that 814 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,640 goes back to, you know, recently we've been 815 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,005 talking about the purpose of the Nobel Prize 816 00:29:37,005 --> 00:29:38,924 here. Yeah. And we've looked at some sort 817 00:29:38,924 --> 00:29:41,404 of crazy prizes from the past that, you 818 00:29:41,404 --> 00:29:43,644 know, to to modernize. You think, you know, 819 00:29:43,644 --> 00:29:45,424 what are they on about? A prize for 820 00:29:45,565 --> 00:29:46,465 color photography. 821 00:29:47,244 --> 00:29:48,845 But, you know, it does say I think 822 00:29:48,845 --> 00:29:51,105 it does explicitly say invention, 823 00:29:52,450 --> 00:29:54,609 when it comes to Nobel Prize. And yeah, 824 00:29:54,609 --> 00:29:56,130 that that I mean that is an an 825 00:29:56,130 --> 00:29:59,169 interesting idea that, you know, when when, you 826 00:29:59,169 --> 00:30:00,710 know, when somebody invents 827 00:30:01,329 --> 00:30:02,149 an extraordinarily 828 00:30:02,849 --> 00:30:03,349 reliable 829 00:30:04,105 --> 00:30:06,845 quantum computer that, you know, achieves amazing 830 00:30:07,384 --> 00:30:07,884 advantage, 831 00:30:08,265 --> 00:30:09,565 that's, you know, 832 00:30:10,105 --> 00:30:10,924 that would definitely 833 00:30:11,464 --> 00:30:12,444 deserve a prize. 834 00:30:13,464 --> 00:30:14,765 Yeah. Prize to the whole industry. 835 00:30:16,345 --> 00:30:18,505 Well, that's the problem, isn't it? You know, 836 00:30:18,505 --> 00:30:18,825 it's, 837 00:30:19,500 --> 00:30:21,420 I mean, particularly if if that sort of 838 00:30:21,420 --> 00:30:22,240 thing is 839 00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:23,680 is developed 840 00:30:24,059 --> 00:30:26,940 at a big company. Mhmm. I mean, if 841 00:30:26,940 --> 00:30:29,279 it's developed at a small company like Oxford 842 00:30:29,579 --> 00:30:32,565 Quantum Circus, maybe, you know, maybe the Nobel 843 00:30:32,565 --> 00:30:35,304 committee would committee would be able to identify 844 00:30:35,444 --> 00:30:36,184 three people. 845 00:30:36,565 --> 00:30:36,884 But, 846 00:30:37,444 --> 00:30:39,125 I'm sure she would be super happy with 847 00:30:39,125 --> 00:30:40,265 that. Peter and Brad. 848 00:30:41,765 --> 00:30:43,224 That's where I put my money. 849 00:30:43,845 --> 00:30:45,444 Okay. Well, that's yeah. Well well well well 850 00:30:45,444 --> 00:30:46,804 well, we'll put them on our list, 851 00:30:47,450 --> 00:30:49,609 for next year. For sure. They have actually, 852 00:30:49,849 --> 00:30:51,849 had some really good results last year with 853 00:30:51,849 --> 00:30:53,930 a a new type of the Echoaxpond device, 854 00:30:54,170 --> 00:30:55,069 as well called 855 00:30:55,369 --> 00:30:56,809 well, I I'm not gonna talk to it, 856 00:30:56,809 --> 00:30:58,650 but but some people should should also look 857 00:30:58,650 --> 00:30:59,230 it up. 858 00:30:59,529 --> 00:31:02,009 Oh, that's great. Well, thanks thanks, Alana. Thanks 859 00:31:02,009 --> 00:31:05,044 so much for, for coming on, the podcast 860 00:31:05,265 --> 00:31:07,664 and, sort of giving us a flavor, you 861 00:31:07,664 --> 00:31:09,044 know, both about the physics, 862 00:31:09,424 --> 00:31:10,325 but also, 863 00:31:10,865 --> 00:31:12,484 you know, how that research has 864 00:31:12,785 --> 00:31:13,904 essentially spawned, 865 00:31:14,865 --> 00:31:16,484 an exciting new industry. 866 00:31:16,890 --> 00:31:18,650 Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much. 867 00:31:18,650 --> 00:31:19,710 Thank you for the time. 868 00:31:27,130 --> 00:31:30,509 That was Ilana Whisby, who's a quantum physicist, 869 00:31:30,970 --> 00:31:32,285 deep tech entrepreneur, 870 00:31:32,744 --> 00:31:34,365 and former CEO 871 00:31:34,744 --> 00:31:36,845 of Oxford Quantum Circuits. 872 00:31:37,305 --> 00:31:39,325 There's much more about this year's 873 00:31:39,705 --> 00:31:41,244 Nobel Prize for Physics 874 00:31:41,545 --> 00:31:43,244 on the Physics World website. 875 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,200 I'm afraid that's all the time we have 876 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:47,500 for this week's podcast. 877 00:31:47,799 --> 00:31:48,779 I'd like to thank 878 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,059 American Elements for their generous support 879 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:53,259 of this episode. 880 00:31:54,039 --> 00:31:57,720 Also, thanks to Ilana Whisby for joining me 881 00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:58,220 today. 882 00:31:58,664 --> 00:32:01,164 And as always, thank you to our producer, 883 00:32:01,625 --> 00:32:02,605 Fred Isles. 884 00:32:03,305 --> 00:32:05,625 We'll be back again next week when we 885 00:32:05,625 --> 00:32:07,005 chat about the effect 886 00:32:07,625 --> 00:32:08,205 of microgravity 887 00:32:08,904 --> 00:32:10,765 on the eyes of astronauts 888 00:32:11,305 --> 00:32:13,565 and how they can protect their vision 889 00:32:13,930 --> 00:32:14,750 in space. 890 00:32:15,130 --> 00:32:16,109 See you then. 891 00:32:18,490 --> 00:32:19,549 American Elements, 892 00:32:20,250 --> 00:32:23,789 the world's manufacturer of engineered and advanced materials. 893 00:32:25,690 --> 00:32:26,565 American Elements, 894 00:32:27,684 --> 00:32:28,504 now invent.