1 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,880 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly 2 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:11,380 podcast. 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,339 This episode features Scott Bolton, 4 00:00:14,765 --> 00:00:16,385 who is principal investigator 5 00:00:16,685 --> 00:00:17,505 on NASA's 6 00:00:17,885 --> 00:00:19,425 Juno mission to Jupiter. 7 00:00:20,445 --> 00:00:21,984 Launched in 2011, 8 00:00:22,125 --> 00:00:25,565 the mission has delivered important insights into the 9 00:00:25,565 --> 00:00:28,065 nature of the gas giant planet. 10 00:00:28,730 --> 00:00:29,949 And in this conversation 11 00:00:30,410 --> 00:00:32,750 with Physics World's Margaret Harris, 12 00:00:33,130 --> 00:00:37,130 Bolton explains how Juno continues to change our 13 00:00:37,130 --> 00:00:37,630 understanding 14 00:00:38,090 --> 00:00:40,590 of Jupiter and the gas giants. 15 00:00:41,755 --> 00:00:44,554 Although the Juno mission was expected to last 16 00:00:44,554 --> 00:00:47,914 only a few years, the spacecraft is still 17 00:00:47,914 --> 00:00:48,814 going strong 18 00:00:49,274 --> 00:00:51,135 despite operating in Jupiter's 19 00:00:51,515 --> 00:00:52,015 intense 20 00:00:52,395 --> 00:00:53,695 radiation belts. 21 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,979 As I'm speaking though, its future is uncertain. 22 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,619 Despite its great success, the mission is currently 23 00:01:02,679 --> 00:01:05,659 scheduled to end at the September, 24 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:07,900 which is something that Bolton 25 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:09,260 also addresses 26 00:01:09,745 --> 00:01:10,564 in the interview. 27 00:01:11,265 --> 00:01:12,405 Here's that conversation. 28 00:01:20,064 --> 00:01:22,144 My guest today is Scott Bolton, a space 29 00:01:22,144 --> 00:01:24,969 physicist who's an associate vice president the Southwest 30 00:01:24,969 --> 00:01:27,790 Research Institute in The US and the principal 31 00:01:27,849 --> 00:01:30,030 investigator of NASA's Juno mission. 32 00:01:30,490 --> 00:01:32,349 Hello, Scott. Welcome to the podcast. 33 00:01:33,130 --> 00:01:34,670 Hi. Thanks for having me. 34 00:01:35,209 --> 00:01:38,010 Juno, the mission you lead, that spacecraft was 35 00:01:38,010 --> 00:01:40,984 launched in 2011, and it's been orbiting the 36 00:01:40,984 --> 00:01:43,084 planet Jupiter since 2016. 37 00:01:43,864 --> 00:01:45,465 What would you say have been its most 38 00:01:45,465 --> 00:01:48,265 significant discoveries so far? You know, its greatest 39 00:01:48,265 --> 00:01:49,325 hits if you like. 40 00:01:49,864 --> 00:01:52,284 Well, that's actually quite a long list because 41 00:01:52,504 --> 00:01:53,400 we kind of 42 00:01:53,719 --> 00:01:56,599 revolutionized our idea of how Jupiter and giant 43 00:01:56,599 --> 00:01:59,020 planets in general work when we got there. 44 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:02,280 So one of the the first discoveries that 45 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:04,780 we got was that the top of Jupiter 46 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,060 over both poles 47 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:06,974 rest 48 00:02:07,454 --> 00:02:08,995 giant polar cyclones, 49 00:02:09,935 --> 00:02:11,854 and there are sets of them that we 50 00:02:11,854 --> 00:02:14,655 call them circumpolar cyclones because there's a whole 51 00:02:14,655 --> 00:02:16,594 bunch of them around the poles 52 00:02:16,895 --> 00:02:20,034 that's surrounding one true polar one, and they 53 00:02:20,270 --> 00:02:22,349 seem to be stable the whole time. I 54 00:02:22,349 --> 00:02:24,750 mean, if we've been there, they've sort of 55 00:02:24,750 --> 00:02:26,669 moved around a little bit, looked like they 56 00:02:26,669 --> 00:02:29,310 were gonna increase, but they turned out not 57 00:02:29,310 --> 00:02:29,810 to. 58 00:02:30,110 --> 00:02:32,590 So that's a very stable configuration. So that 59 00:02:32,590 --> 00:02:34,510 was kind of a major discovery that, you 60 00:02:34,510 --> 00:02:37,074 know, the way we look at Jupiter from 61 00:02:37,074 --> 00:02:39,474 the Earth and every other spacecraft that we've 62 00:02:39,474 --> 00:02:42,275 had has always looked near the Equator and 63 00:02:42,275 --> 00:02:43,894 sort of saw the side view. 64 00:02:44,594 --> 00:02:46,275 Juno went over the poles, and for the 65 00:02:46,275 --> 00:02:47,955 first time, we saw what the poles look 66 00:02:47,955 --> 00:02:48,389 like. 67 00:02:48,789 --> 00:02:50,469 And so from the side, you see these 68 00:02:50,469 --> 00:02:52,889 stripes, zones and belts, if you wish. 69 00:02:53,189 --> 00:02:54,709 When we went over the poles, we saw 70 00:02:54,709 --> 00:02:57,289 that they were full of giant polar cyclones, 71 00:02:57,590 --> 00:02:59,430 like a whole bunch of great red spots, 72 00:02:59,430 --> 00:03:00,250 if you will. 73 00:03:00,870 --> 00:03:02,055 Not quite as big, 74 00:03:02,534 --> 00:03:05,334 but still sizable, you know, near the size 75 00:03:05,334 --> 00:03:07,734 of the Earth, thousands of kilometers across. So 76 00:03:07,734 --> 00:03:09,574 that was kind of our first discovery was 77 00:03:09,574 --> 00:03:11,414 just going over and looking at that and 78 00:03:11,414 --> 00:03:12,555 saying, wow. 79 00:03:12,935 --> 00:03:15,194 What's that? You know, because we had seen 80 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:17,960 the pole of Saturn with Cassini, and it 81 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:19,419 didn't look anything like that. 82 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,460 And so we really realized that 83 00:03:23,159 --> 00:03:25,960 giant planets in general could have these kinds 84 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,780 of things. The next kind of discovery was 85 00:03:29,305 --> 00:03:31,705 looking at the interior structure of Jupiter. So 86 00:03:31,705 --> 00:03:33,645 we set out with the goal of of 87 00:03:33,944 --> 00:03:34,444 learning 88 00:03:35,064 --> 00:03:36,844 whether Jupiter had a core 89 00:03:37,145 --> 00:03:39,965 of heavy elements at that center, a compact 90 00:03:40,104 --> 00:03:40,604 core, 91 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,800 or none at all. And, these were things 92 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:45,479 that were gonna give us clues as to 93 00:03:45,479 --> 00:03:46,780 how Jupiter formed. 94 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,080 Did it start with a core and then 95 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:50,060 build on it, 96 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,280 or did it just collapse like we think 97 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:53,115 the sun did? 98 00:03:54,075 --> 00:03:55,294 And to our surprise, 99 00:03:55,835 --> 00:03:57,915 it turned out neither was true, so we 100 00:03:57,915 --> 00:03:59,694 weren't even asking the right questions, 101 00:04:00,474 --> 00:04:02,235 which is sort of the edge of what 102 00:04:02,235 --> 00:04:04,155 you hope for in discovery is that, you 103 00:04:04,155 --> 00:04:06,735 know, you really do uncover brand new ideas. 104 00:04:07,310 --> 00:04:09,330 And so what Jupyter has 105 00:04:09,710 --> 00:04:12,509 is a large dilute core with gradients. I 106 00:04:12,509 --> 00:04:14,370 mean, it's, you know, a significant 107 00:04:14,830 --> 00:04:17,810 size of Jupyter is the core, and it's 108 00:04:17,870 --> 00:04:21,089 still fluid. It's, not not all heavy elements, 109 00:04:21,464 --> 00:04:23,625 but it has gradients of density in it. 110 00:04:23,625 --> 00:04:26,105 And, you know, we're still trying to figure 111 00:04:26,105 --> 00:04:28,904 out, I think scientists are, now that we've 112 00:04:28,904 --> 00:04:31,225 uncovered that, how do you build a planet 113 00:04:31,225 --> 00:04:33,960 like that? So, you know, we were set 114 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,000 out to help figure out how Jupiter and 115 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,420 other giant planets form. And instead, 116 00:04:40,199 --> 00:04:42,600 we've learned so much that we took a 117 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:43,900 step a little bit backwards 118 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,759 in understanding, and and people are still trying 119 00:04:46,759 --> 00:04:48,775 to develop the models of how do you 120 00:04:48,775 --> 00:04:50,555 form a planet like we see 121 00:04:50,935 --> 00:04:52,314 in Jupiter right now. 122 00:04:52,615 --> 00:04:55,415 And we've since learned after going back and 123 00:04:55,415 --> 00:04:57,335 looking at some of the Cassini data at 124 00:04:57,335 --> 00:04:57,835 Saturn, 125 00:04:58,375 --> 00:05:01,254 that Saturn also may have this large dilute 126 00:05:01,254 --> 00:05:03,490 core. And so, you know, this may be 127 00:05:03,490 --> 00:05:06,069 a a common thing in giant planets. 128 00:05:06,449 --> 00:05:08,209 Next up would be trying to figure out 129 00:05:08,209 --> 00:05:10,789 how the ice giants work, Uranus and Neptune. 130 00:05:11,089 --> 00:05:13,350 Another piece that was really surprising 131 00:05:13,810 --> 00:05:15,509 was that the deep atmosphere 132 00:05:16,375 --> 00:05:18,235 of Jupiter was not well mixed. 133 00:05:18,935 --> 00:05:20,714 So the assumptions had been 134 00:05:21,254 --> 00:05:23,274 for for many decades that 135 00:05:23,895 --> 00:05:26,774 Jupiter had layers of hydrogen, helium, and not 136 00:05:26,774 --> 00:05:28,774 layers, but a mixture of hydrogen and helium 137 00:05:28,774 --> 00:05:31,115 was what Jupiter is made out of mostly. 138 00:05:31,439 --> 00:05:33,600 And as you drop down, Jupiter is getting 139 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,420 warmer, but you're also getting clouds of ammonia, 140 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,040 clouds of water, clouds of different things that 141 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:39,699 are forming. 142 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,020 And if you drop below 143 00:05:42,639 --> 00:05:43,779 where it's warmer, 144 00:05:44,725 --> 00:05:47,125 then that liquid can exist and turns into 145 00:05:47,125 --> 00:05:49,685 vapor. So if I drop below the water 146 00:05:49,685 --> 00:05:52,485 cloud, it's warmer, and so all the rain 147 00:05:52,485 --> 00:05:54,264 should turn into water vapor. 148 00:05:54,725 --> 00:05:57,045 The assumption was that would then become well 149 00:05:57,045 --> 00:05:57,420 mixed. 150 00:05:58,220 --> 00:05:59,980 And right away, we saw that when we 151 00:05:59,980 --> 00:06:02,699 looked deep into Jupiter, then in fact, there 152 00:06:02,699 --> 00:06:03,759 was a lot of variability, 153 00:06:04,460 --> 00:06:06,699 and it was not well mixed. And so 154 00:06:06,699 --> 00:06:08,699 we had to come up with theories on 155 00:06:08,699 --> 00:06:09,199 how 156 00:06:09,884 --> 00:06:12,604 that might actually work, how could you not 157 00:06:12,604 --> 00:06:13,824 have it well mixed. 158 00:06:14,285 --> 00:06:15,185 And, of course, 159 00:06:15,644 --> 00:06:18,044 in hindsight, I think maybe we were naive 160 00:06:18,044 --> 00:06:19,805 to believe it was well mixed. That was 161 00:06:19,805 --> 00:06:22,204 a very simple model. The Earth's not well 162 00:06:22,204 --> 00:06:24,685 mixed, then we employed something similar to what 163 00:06:24,685 --> 00:06:27,000 we see on the Earth, which is hail. 164 00:06:27,060 --> 00:06:29,479 So if you see hail sometimes come down, 165 00:06:30,019 --> 00:06:31,860 it's way too warm, and yet this ice 166 00:06:31,860 --> 00:06:33,240 ball lands on the ground. 167 00:06:33,779 --> 00:06:35,540 And you would think, well, that should all 168 00:06:35,540 --> 00:06:38,259 be melted in vapor already because it's too 169 00:06:38,259 --> 00:06:40,704 warm, but it doesn't. It comes down out 170 00:06:40,704 --> 00:06:42,324 of, kind of equilibrium. 171 00:06:43,824 --> 00:06:46,064 And so we saw hints that maybe something 172 00:06:46,064 --> 00:06:47,985 like that was happening at Jupiter, and so 173 00:06:47,985 --> 00:06:50,625 we call them mush balls. But there's this 174 00:06:50,625 --> 00:06:51,125 idea 175 00:06:51,750 --> 00:06:54,009 that in fact you have updrafts, and 176 00:06:54,470 --> 00:06:56,169 ammonia and water are mixing, 177 00:06:56,550 --> 00:06:58,949 and in fact we've theorized that what we're 178 00:06:58,949 --> 00:07:02,470 seeing is clouds of ammonia water mixture, that 179 00:07:02,470 --> 00:07:03,449 there's a liquid 180 00:07:03,909 --> 00:07:06,490 where the ammonia is almost acting like antifreeze, 181 00:07:07,615 --> 00:07:09,394 and taking the water ice 182 00:07:10,175 --> 00:07:12,814 and melting it into a liquid. And we've 183 00:07:12,814 --> 00:07:16,014 seen lightning coming from this region that is 184 00:07:16,014 --> 00:07:16,514 too 185 00:07:17,214 --> 00:07:19,634 high in elevation, too high altitude 186 00:07:20,094 --> 00:07:23,339 for liquid water to exist. And so we 187 00:07:23,339 --> 00:07:25,439 think that this means that there's liquid 188 00:07:26,379 --> 00:07:28,000 ammonia water mixed together, 189 00:07:28,540 --> 00:07:30,060 and that's where it's coming from. So that 190 00:07:30,060 --> 00:07:31,120 was a discovery 191 00:07:31,500 --> 00:07:33,680 that's changed our views of of Jupiter. 192 00:07:34,220 --> 00:07:35,920 We've also learned about the magnetosphere 193 00:07:37,485 --> 00:07:39,805 and the aurora and how that works comparing 194 00:07:39,805 --> 00:07:41,504 it to Earth, and it's very different. 195 00:07:41,964 --> 00:07:44,685 And the acceleration of particles is happening very, 196 00:07:44,685 --> 00:07:45,985 very close to Jupiter. 197 00:07:46,604 --> 00:07:49,564 And we've even started to discover now that 198 00:07:49,564 --> 00:07:51,185 the shape of Jupiter's magnetosphere 199 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:52,980 is flatter 200 00:07:53,839 --> 00:07:56,240 than was theorized, and we're just starting to 201 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,360 see that because our orbit has sort of 202 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,540 evolved to the point where parts of it 203 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:03,860 are poking out in out of the magnetosphere 204 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,935 into the solar wind. And so we're seeing 205 00:08:06,935 --> 00:08:08,714 how the boundaries are shaped, 206 00:08:09,254 --> 00:08:11,435 and they're not as as, we've 207 00:08:11,814 --> 00:08:12,314 theoretically 208 00:08:12,615 --> 00:08:13,115 expected. 209 00:08:14,055 --> 00:08:15,814 From a space science point of view, I 210 00:08:15,814 --> 00:08:18,475 guess one other big surprise and additionally scientific 211 00:08:18,694 --> 00:08:20,839 surprises about the the sort of physics of 212 00:08:20,839 --> 00:08:23,500 Jupiter's atmosphere and the chemistry going on there, 213 00:08:23,639 --> 00:08:26,120 another big surprise is that this mission, this 214 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,379 hardware, is actually still going. 215 00:08:28,759 --> 00:08:30,199 I don't know about you, but my impression 216 00:08:30,199 --> 00:08:32,120 is the spacecraft lifetimes are a little bit 217 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,095 like dog years, with a few honorable exceptions 218 00:08:35,095 --> 00:08:36,634 like the the Voyager missions. 219 00:08:37,095 --> 00:08:39,014 Most of them don't get to celebrate their 220 00:08:39,014 --> 00:08:42,315 fourteenth birthdays in space like Juno recently has. 221 00:08:42,695 --> 00:08:44,235 You know, what goes into that? 222 00:08:44,934 --> 00:08:46,235 Well, it's true. 223 00:08:46,620 --> 00:08:49,340 And Juno was probably even less likely to 224 00:08:49,340 --> 00:08:50,399 celebrate that 225 00:08:50,940 --> 00:08:51,440 because 226 00:08:52,139 --> 00:08:53,279 where we were going 227 00:08:54,379 --> 00:08:56,480 was really the harshest region 228 00:08:56,779 --> 00:08:58,940 in our entire solar system that we know 229 00:08:58,940 --> 00:09:01,714 of. It was by far the most challenging 230 00:09:02,414 --> 00:09:02,914 mission 231 00:09:03,294 --> 00:09:06,095 that we've probably ever launched in the sense 232 00:09:06,095 --> 00:09:07,875 that it was going into 233 00:09:08,495 --> 00:09:11,370 a region that we call Jupiter's radiation belts. 234 00:09:11,529 --> 00:09:14,169 So Earth has radiation belts surrounding it. We 235 00:09:14,169 --> 00:09:16,429 call them the Vale Island radiation belts. 236 00:09:17,210 --> 00:09:19,309 Jupiter has ones that are sort 237 00:09:20,250 --> 00:09:21,070 of extreme. 238 00:09:21,690 --> 00:09:24,730 Almost everything about Jupiter is extreme. It's like 239 00:09:24,730 --> 00:09:25,950 a planet on steroids. 240 00:09:26,934 --> 00:09:28,315 You know, it's 10 times 241 00:09:28,774 --> 00:09:31,334 larger than Earth, so a a thousand Earths 242 00:09:31,334 --> 00:09:32,394 fit inside Jupiter. 243 00:09:32,934 --> 00:09:35,834 Everything is extreme. The gravity field, the atmosphere, 244 00:09:36,454 --> 00:09:38,954 and the radiation as well. And so 245 00:09:39,740 --> 00:09:41,179 in order to do what we wanted to 246 00:09:41,179 --> 00:09:42,860 do, which was go very close and go 247 00:09:42,860 --> 00:09:43,679 over the poles, 248 00:09:45,019 --> 00:09:47,100 we had to kind of prepare for this 249 00:09:47,100 --> 00:09:49,339 high energy high energy particles. That's what the 250 00:09:49,339 --> 00:09:50,959 radiation is, is high energy 251 00:09:51,419 --> 00:09:54,319 electrons and protons and ions that are slamming 252 00:09:54,379 --> 00:09:54,879 into 253 00:09:55,245 --> 00:09:58,605 spacecraft, and they basically eat electronics. Right? So 254 00:09:58,605 --> 00:10:00,205 this is one of the big challenges of 255 00:10:00,205 --> 00:10:03,245 even Earth orbiters is getting satellites that can 256 00:10:03,245 --> 00:10:03,745 survive 257 00:10:04,365 --> 00:10:05,424 our own radiation. 258 00:10:05,884 --> 00:10:06,705 At Jupiter, 259 00:10:07,379 --> 00:10:10,100 we designed something that's pretty much an armored 260 00:10:10,100 --> 00:10:10,600 tank. 261 00:10:11,220 --> 00:10:14,440 We've we've got a a giant radiation vault 262 00:10:14,660 --> 00:10:16,899 in the center of the spacecraft that's 200 263 00:10:16,899 --> 00:10:18,600 kilos of walls of titanium, 264 00:10:19,235 --> 00:10:21,254 and we pack the sensitive electronics 265 00:10:21,634 --> 00:10:22,695 inside of that 266 00:10:23,075 --> 00:10:25,014 in order to try to survive Jupiter. 267 00:10:25,394 --> 00:10:28,055 So we set out, we hope to last 268 00:10:28,435 --> 00:10:29,475 34 269 00:10:29,475 --> 00:10:29,975 orbits, 270 00:10:30,754 --> 00:10:32,774 and that was in order to map Jupiter. 271 00:10:32,835 --> 00:10:35,579 We were gonna use 32 orbits to map 272 00:10:35,579 --> 00:10:37,419 it, and then we had two spares in 273 00:10:37,419 --> 00:10:38,639 case we had problems. 274 00:10:38,940 --> 00:10:39,679 And so 275 00:10:40,299 --> 00:10:40,860 that was, 276 00:10:41,659 --> 00:10:42,159 originally 277 00:10:42,940 --> 00:10:45,759 designed to be finished in 02/2018, 278 00:10:46,539 --> 00:10:49,575 and you you accumulate the radiation each orbit. 279 00:10:50,375 --> 00:10:52,634 Juno's orbit is very elliptical 280 00:10:53,014 --> 00:10:55,495 and we come really close to Jupiter, just 281 00:10:55,495 --> 00:10:58,315 screaming over the cloud tops about 5,000 kilometers, 282 00:10:58,535 --> 00:11:01,254 takes about two hours to go from one 283 00:11:01,254 --> 00:11:03,815 pole to the next. So we're just screaming 284 00:11:03,815 --> 00:11:04,315 by 285 00:11:04,730 --> 00:11:07,470 really fast, really close, dipping underneath 286 00:11:08,009 --> 00:11:10,269 these radiation belts. And then, 287 00:11:10,889 --> 00:11:12,409 the rest of the planet, we go out 288 00:11:12,409 --> 00:11:15,289 far, way past Callisto or way past, you 289 00:11:15,289 --> 00:11:16,909 know, Ganymede originally. 290 00:11:17,529 --> 00:11:18,909 And so the whole orbit 291 00:11:19,745 --> 00:11:21,745 at this point takes thirty days, but most 292 00:11:21,745 --> 00:11:23,664 of the time, it took about fifty three 293 00:11:23,664 --> 00:11:24,164 days. 294 00:11:24,544 --> 00:11:26,865 And so two hours of it was close 295 00:11:26,865 --> 00:11:29,585 to Jupiter in this hectic region. And so 296 00:11:29,585 --> 00:11:32,245 we accumulated this radiation, and what was amazing 297 00:11:32,304 --> 00:11:32,804 was 298 00:11:33,289 --> 00:11:35,850 that we were surviving. You know, we designed 299 00:11:35,850 --> 00:11:38,189 it like an armored tank, and that worked. 300 00:11:38,569 --> 00:11:41,449 And, and so we got through all of 301 00:11:41,449 --> 00:11:43,470 our what we call our prime mission, 302 00:11:44,089 --> 00:11:46,815 which was the 34 orbits, And that was 303 00:11:46,815 --> 00:11:48,654 in the 2021. 304 00:11:48,654 --> 00:11:49,714 We finished that. 305 00:11:50,095 --> 00:11:51,394 And then to our surprise, 306 00:11:51,774 --> 00:11:52,834 we're still going. 307 00:11:53,134 --> 00:11:54,434 Everything's still working. 308 00:11:54,894 --> 00:11:57,714 We will complete our seventy fifth orbit 309 00:11:58,254 --> 00:12:00,434 around Jupiter. So more than double, 310 00:12:01,860 --> 00:12:04,919 what we were originally planned. And the radiation 311 00:12:05,379 --> 00:12:08,100 is many times more than double because it 312 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:11,779 increases over each orbit because our orbit gets 313 00:12:11,779 --> 00:12:14,419 twisted around by Jupiter's gravity field that's so 314 00:12:14,419 --> 00:12:17,274 massive, and it forces us to go through 315 00:12:17,274 --> 00:12:19,134 harsher parts of the radiation 316 00:12:19,835 --> 00:12:20,815 every orbit. 317 00:12:21,514 --> 00:12:24,075 So to last more than 30 four is 318 00:12:24,075 --> 00:12:25,615 amazing, you know, the next 319 00:12:25,915 --> 00:12:28,495 ten or fifteen, we probably doubled our radiation. 320 00:12:28,554 --> 00:12:30,750 At this point, we're way past what we 321 00:12:30,750 --> 00:12:32,850 were originally designed to last. 322 00:12:33,470 --> 00:12:36,750 Now that doesn't happen without some consequences. We've 323 00:12:36,750 --> 00:12:37,250 seen 324 00:12:37,629 --> 00:12:39,170 various systems degrade 325 00:12:39,710 --> 00:12:40,769 due to the radiation, 326 00:12:41,629 --> 00:12:42,129 but 327 00:12:42,444 --> 00:12:44,304 so far, everything's still working. 328 00:12:45,004 --> 00:12:47,004 Now what do you mean by degradation? What 329 00:12:47,004 --> 00:12:47,904 does that degradation 330 00:12:48,284 --> 00:12:49,024 look like? 331 00:12:49,644 --> 00:12:51,884 So the the damage due to these high 332 00:12:51,884 --> 00:12:53,985 energy particles can take multiple 333 00:12:54,764 --> 00:12:57,480 aspects of how they put in damage to 334 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:58,040 your your, 335 00:12:58,680 --> 00:12:59,180 instrument. 336 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,660 So in in the simplest 337 00:13:02,279 --> 00:13:03,899 thing, it can just be noise 338 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,180 in the camera itself. So in other words, 339 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:08,860 when we take a picture, 340 00:13:10,154 --> 00:13:12,335 there's a whole bunch of spots that are 341 00:13:12,634 --> 00:13:14,554 not really showing up, and so it looks 342 00:13:14,554 --> 00:13:15,855 like a noisy picture. 343 00:13:16,795 --> 00:13:19,035 Instead of a nice clear picture where every 344 00:13:19,035 --> 00:13:19,535 pixel 345 00:13:19,915 --> 00:13:22,154 is resolved and understood and is part of 346 00:13:22,154 --> 00:13:25,149 your image, you have some pixels that seem 347 00:13:25,149 --> 00:13:28,929 to be blank or missing because of radiation 348 00:13:29,070 --> 00:13:31,410 noise. So that can hit the CCD, 349 00:13:31,789 --> 00:13:33,710 and that could be on any camera. Right? 350 00:13:33,710 --> 00:13:35,745 So we have some shielding, of course. 351 00:13:36,304 --> 00:13:38,804 But the more we can also get other 352 00:13:38,865 --> 00:13:40,164 kinds of damage, 353 00:13:40,945 --> 00:13:41,845 to the electronics. 354 00:13:42,225 --> 00:13:44,544 You could have a voltage regulator or any 355 00:13:44,544 --> 00:13:46,404 kind of chip or a circuit board 356 00:13:46,705 --> 00:13:48,384 go bad, and all of a sudden it 357 00:13:48,384 --> 00:13:51,230 doesn't work because you've got some radiation coming 358 00:13:51,230 --> 00:13:52,129 in depositing 359 00:13:52,669 --> 00:13:53,169 charge 360 00:13:53,789 --> 00:13:56,190 across some path that it it zips right 361 00:13:56,190 --> 00:13:59,330 through your instrument, right, right through the electronics, 362 00:13:59,870 --> 00:14:01,549 and all of a sudden the circuit boards 363 00:14:01,549 --> 00:14:03,549 don't work the way they were originally designed 364 00:14:03,549 --> 00:14:04,125 to do 365 00:14:04,605 --> 00:14:06,465 because they've been disrupted. 366 00:14:07,004 --> 00:14:07,904 I can also 367 00:14:08,284 --> 00:14:10,144 have bit errors where 368 00:14:10,524 --> 00:14:11,184 I have 369 00:14:11,565 --> 00:14:12,065 software 370 00:14:13,085 --> 00:14:15,504 bits that are stored inside memory 371 00:14:16,539 --> 00:14:17,360 that can then 372 00:14:18,139 --> 00:14:20,460 get interfered with. And so I could end 373 00:14:20,460 --> 00:14:22,620 up with a a piece of software that 374 00:14:22,620 --> 00:14:23,519 all of a sudden 375 00:14:23,980 --> 00:14:25,039 doesn't work anymore 376 00:14:26,059 --> 00:14:26,559 because, 377 00:14:27,899 --> 00:14:30,379 the path that, you know, the software might 378 00:14:30,379 --> 00:14:30,879 point 379 00:14:31,184 --> 00:14:33,585 something to to some part of a memory 380 00:14:33,585 --> 00:14:34,965 and the memory is gone. 381 00:14:35,345 --> 00:14:37,105 You know, there's an error in that memory 382 00:14:37,105 --> 00:14:37,605 now. 383 00:14:37,985 --> 00:14:39,504 So you can have a lot of different 384 00:14:39,504 --> 00:14:40,404 kinds of damage. 385 00:14:41,105 --> 00:14:43,904 I could have damage to the solar cells 386 00:14:43,904 --> 00:14:45,929 as well. The radiation glass could get 387 00:14:46,649 --> 00:14:48,649 cloudy, and and all of a sudden, I 388 00:14:48,649 --> 00:14:50,190 can't produce as much electricity. 389 00:14:51,529 --> 00:14:53,690 So there's a wide range of damage that 390 00:14:53,690 --> 00:14:54,669 comes from radiation 391 00:14:55,370 --> 00:14:56,269 on spacecraft. 392 00:14:56,809 --> 00:14:57,789 And over, 393 00:14:58,694 --> 00:15:01,254 I would say, the entire space program since 394 00:15:01,254 --> 00:15:03,754 we first launched the satellite, we've been struggling 395 00:15:03,815 --> 00:15:06,294 trying to decide and figure out how to 396 00:15:06,294 --> 00:15:08,375 deal with that. In fact, the very first 397 00:15:08,375 --> 00:15:11,639 NASA mission was coral explorer one in 1958, 398 00:15:11,639 --> 00:15:12,620 and it discovered 399 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,100 the radiation belts around Earth. 400 00:15:15,639 --> 00:15:16,860 And ever since then, 401 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:18,600 people have been trying to figure out how 402 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:19,820 to avoid those places. 403 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,240 I wanna talk a little bit specifically about 404 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,240 one of the instruments on Juno, which is 405 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:25,980 this JunoCam. 406 00:15:26,735 --> 00:15:28,434 What's its role in the mission? 407 00:15:29,375 --> 00:15:31,774 So JunoCam was was put on in order 408 00:15:31,774 --> 00:15:34,514 for us to take pictures of Jupiter close-up. 409 00:15:34,574 --> 00:15:36,254 We were really going close, and we were 410 00:15:36,254 --> 00:15:37,875 going to this unique perspective 411 00:15:38,495 --> 00:15:39,875 over the poles. Right? 412 00:15:40,334 --> 00:15:42,639 So we wanted to have a camera so 413 00:15:42,639 --> 00:15:44,000 that we could see what the poles of 414 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:45,220 Jupiter look like. 415 00:15:45,919 --> 00:15:47,919 So it was put on really in order 416 00:15:47,919 --> 00:15:49,940 to engage the public and provide 417 00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:50,899 humanity. 418 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:53,679 What does Jupiter look like? We put the 419 00:15:53,679 --> 00:15:54,179 data 420 00:15:54,534 --> 00:15:57,254 on the website immediately, and actually the public 421 00:15:57,254 --> 00:15:58,794 makes the pictures for us. 422 00:15:59,654 --> 00:16:02,134 However, while that was maybe the main purpose 423 00:16:02,134 --> 00:16:03,735 and why we put it on, and it 424 00:16:03,735 --> 00:16:05,514 didn't really carry science requirements, 425 00:16:06,215 --> 00:16:08,235 that instrument has has provided 426 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,800 incredible amounts of science discoveries to us, right? 427 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,240 Everything associated with atmospheric dynamics, discovering it, it 428 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,000 was able to see lightning, it was able 429 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,500 to see aurora, we flew by the satellites, 430 00:16:19,559 --> 00:16:21,879 we discovered all kinds of things associated with 431 00:16:21,879 --> 00:16:23,179 Europa and Io 432 00:16:23,534 --> 00:16:24,834 and Ganymede. 433 00:16:25,454 --> 00:16:27,475 It's it's full of incredible 434 00:16:28,334 --> 00:16:28,834 discoveries, 435 00:16:29,534 --> 00:16:30,754 but it was primarily 436 00:16:31,214 --> 00:16:33,154 really just to give us great pictures 437 00:16:33,534 --> 00:16:35,990 of a planet close-up. And of course, it 438 00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:38,629 has a very special kind of framing, a 439 00:16:38,629 --> 00:16:40,009 little bit like your smartphone. 440 00:16:40,549 --> 00:16:42,789 And so it it takes pictures that are 441 00:16:42,789 --> 00:16:44,889 unlike most cameras that are on 442 00:16:45,269 --> 00:16:45,769 spacecraft 443 00:16:46,309 --> 00:16:48,169 in the sense that it's not a telescope. 444 00:16:48,605 --> 00:16:50,125 And so it gets a wide field of 445 00:16:50,125 --> 00:16:52,925 view, so you see these incredibly beautiful pictures 446 00:16:52,925 --> 00:16:55,725 of Jupiter showing, you know, almost Van Gogh 447 00:16:55,725 --> 00:16:59,585 like features in its clouds. And that's because, 448 00:16:59,884 --> 00:17:01,965 they're almost it it's really designed like a 449 00:17:01,965 --> 00:17:02,945 vacation camera. 450 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,240 What effect did that high radiation environment have 451 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,220 on this vacation camera on orbiting Jupiter? 452 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,680 Yeah. A few years ago, we saw some 453 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,920 hints. First, it was having trouble turning on 454 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,525 and getting working again, and we weren't sure 455 00:17:17,525 --> 00:17:19,365 why. When we when it would turn off 456 00:17:19,365 --> 00:17:21,684 and turn back on, it was taking longer 457 00:17:21,684 --> 00:17:24,565 and longer to actually start working again. And 458 00:17:24,565 --> 00:17:26,325 we were getting a little bit nervous that 459 00:17:26,325 --> 00:17:28,644 things were gonna go go bad on it. 460 00:17:28,644 --> 00:17:30,484 It wouldn't one day, it just wouldn't turn 461 00:17:30,484 --> 00:17:30,984 on. 462 00:17:31,319 --> 00:17:33,159 And we think that was associated with the 463 00:17:33,159 --> 00:17:35,659 radiation coming into some of its circuit boards. 464 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:36,859 Then, 465 00:17:38,039 --> 00:17:39,740 it also was seeing noisy 466 00:17:40,279 --> 00:17:42,200 images. We were getting a lot of noise 467 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:43,960 to the point where they almost couldn't be 468 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:44,460 used. 469 00:17:44,884 --> 00:17:46,884 In, sort of 2023, 470 00:17:46,884 --> 00:17:48,565 right before we were gonna fly by the 471 00:17:48,565 --> 00:17:51,125 moon Io, which is the most volcanic body 472 00:17:51,125 --> 00:17:52,105 in the solar system, 473 00:17:52,804 --> 00:17:53,544 the images 474 00:17:53,845 --> 00:17:55,304 became almost unusable. 475 00:17:56,004 --> 00:17:58,644 And, of course, getting close-up images of Io, 476 00:17:58,644 --> 00:18:01,400 this incredibly beautiful moon with volcanoes all over 477 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,299 it, was really a high priority to us. 478 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,519 And so we were, we were a little 479 00:18:06,519 --> 00:18:08,920 bit panicked at the last second to realize, 480 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:10,680 oh my god, the camera's not working. What 481 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:11,500 do we do? 482 00:18:12,279 --> 00:18:14,619 So we did sign of a hail Mary. 483 00:18:15,485 --> 00:18:16,144 We had 484 00:18:16,605 --> 00:18:18,684 seen that there was a a theory out 485 00:18:18,684 --> 00:18:21,424 there called annealing, which has been used since 486 00:18:21,644 --> 00:18:24,125 the middle ages. You anneal something, you you 487 00:18:24,125 --> 00:18:27,164 change its property. So, you know, people that 488 00:18:27,164 --> 00:18:27,825 were making 489 00:18:28,170 --> 00:18:30,570 doing metallurgy were would heat up the metal 490 00:18:30,570 --> 00:18:32,330 and pound it, right, and it would change 491 00:18:32,330 --> 00:18:34,750 things. And so you could change the properties 492 00:18:35,130 --> 00:18:37,690 of of how the metals bonded. And there 493 00:18:37,690 --> 00:18:38,670 were some experiments 494 00:18:39,049 --> 00:18:41,544 on spacecraft where they were annealing different things 495 00:18:41,544 --> 00:18:43,544 like solar rays, and people were thinking, but 496 00:18:43,544 --> 00:18:45,724 nobody had really figured out how this works. 497 00:18:46,184 --> 00:18:48,105 And so we thought, well, let's just try 498 00:18:48,105 --> 00:18:49,724 that and see what happens. 499 00:18:50,184 --> 00:18:52,444 And so we started heating up the instrument 500 00:18:52,505 --> 00:18:54,859 as best we could because we had heaters 501 00:18:54,859 --> 00:18:56,380 and different ways that we could try to 502 00:18:56,380 --> 00:18:58,460 heat it up. And we started heating it 503 00:18:58,460 --> 00:19:00,140 up and testing it and heating it up, 504 00:19:00,140 --> 00:19:01,899 and we were getting a little bit of 505 00:19:01,899 --> 00:19:05,019 help, but it really wasn't doing much. And 506 00:19:05,019 --> 00:19:07,419 we were getting closer to the point where 507 00:19:07,419 --> 00:19:10,154 we were gonna fly by IO. And so 508 00:19:10,154 --> 00:19:12,075 we just said, let's just go all out, 509 00:19:12,075 --> 00:19:14,494 and we started heating it up even longer 510 00:19:14,875 --> 00:19:16,335 and higher temperatures. 511 00:19:17,194 --> 00:19:17,674 And, 512 00:19:18,234 --> 00:19:18,734 miraculously, 513 00:19:19,275 --> 00:19:21,355 right before we flew by IO, all of 514 00:19:21,355 --> 00:19:21,934 a sudden, 515 00:19:22,259 --> 00:19:24,279 it started working perfectly again. 516 00:19:24,980 --> 00:19:27,220 And so you can see the images on 517 00:19:27,220 --> 00:19:29,559 our website or in various news articles 518 00:19:29,940 --> 00:19:33,539 that we got incredible pictures. And, and then 519 00:19:33,539 --> 00:19:34,599 ever since then, 520 00:19:35,724 --> 00:19:38,065 we've had a program to keep doing that 521 00:19:38,204 --> 00:19:38,704 annealing 522 00:19:39,164 --> 00:19:41,325 and try to maintain it. And sometimes it 523 00:19:41,325 --> 00:19:43,664 goes a little bit south and starts 524 00:19:44,044 --> 00:19:46,605 giving bad behavior or noisy images, and then 525 00:19:46,605 --> 00:19:48,224 we brought it back to life again. 526 00:19:48,580 --> 00:19:50,100 And right now, it's in one of those 527 00:19:50,100 --> 00:19:52,259 states where the last orbit it it kinda 528 00:19:52,259 --> 00:19:54,660 went south again because we're getting through more 529 00:19:54,660 --> 00:19:56,500 and more radiation. And so we're in the 530 00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:58,420 process of heating it up right now, and 531 00:19:58,420 --> 00:20:00,279 we we're waiting to see 532 00:20:00,580 --> 00:20:02,039 whether it works perfectly. 533 00:20:02,375 --> 00:20:04,055 But even if it doesn't, we'll just keep 534 00:20:04,055 --> 00:20:05,575 heating it up and by maybe the next 535 00:20:05,575 --> 00:20:07,654 orbit it will because it it depends on 536 00:20:07,654 --> 00:20:10,295 how long it heats up for. But we've 537 00:20:10,295 --> 00:20:12,795 also learned how to do this to other 538 00:20:13,015 --> 00:20:14,955 systems throughout the mission 539 00:20:15,690 --> 00:20:18,029 on the spacecraft, engineering subsystems, 540 00:20:18,409 --> 00:20:20,669 UV cameras, other kinds of 541 00:20:21,049 --> 00:20:23,869 star cameras. I mean, just we've probably fixed 542 00:20:24,169 --> 00:20:26,409 quite a few things now. In fact, I 543 00:20:26,409 --> 00:20:29,015 would say that we're we're learning how to 544 00:20:29,015 --> 00:20:30,075 deal with this, 545 00:20:30,615 --> 00:20:32,855 and we're really the first mission that's really 546 00:20:32,855 --> 00:20:35,194 learning this. And what we're learning 547 00:20:35,575 --> 00:20:37,575 is a technique that can be used not 548 00:20:37,575 --> 00:20:40,295 only for deep space missions, but actually to 549 00:20:40,295 --> 00:20:43,400 design and and operate spacecraft right here on 550 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:44,460 Earth even better. 551 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:46,519 That seems a little bit strange just to 552 00:20:46,519 --> 00:20:48,039 heat something up. I I don't think I 553 00:20:48,039 --> 00:20:49,720 want to try that on my laptop if 554 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:51,720 it was going bad. Do you know why 555 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:52,380 it worked? 556 00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:55,295 I would not recommend it. It's kind of, 557 00:20:55,615 --> 00:20:58,035 an art that's not really totally understood. 558 00:20:58,494 --> 00:21:00,575 I mean, you're changing the properties, but how 559 00:21:00,575 --> 00:21:03,295 it works on silicon chips or CCDs is 560 00:21:03,295 --> 00:21:06,174 not so clear. We're kind of still figuring 561 00:21:06,174 --> 00:21:08,309 that out. And it's not as simple as 562 00:21:08,309 --> 00:21:10,890 just heating it. That you there's a whole 563 00:21:11,670 --> 00:21:13,670 trick to it, if you will, and a 564 00:21:13,670 --> 00:21:15,930 and a method that we are still exploring. 565 00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:18,950 But how you heat it up, how you 566 00:21:18,950 --> 00:21:19,930 cool it down, 567 00:21:20,474 --> 00:21:23,194 what that cycling is, what temperatures you go 568 00:21:23,194 --> 00:21:23,694 to, 569 00:21:24,555 --> 00:21:26,555 all of these things are built into it. 570 00:21:26,555 --> 00:21:27,855 It's a very complicated 571 00:21:28,555 --> 00:21:30,414 process that is still 572 00:21:31,035 --> 00:21:32,634 sort of on the drawing boards, if you 573 00:21:32,634 --> 00:21:33,134 will. 574 00:21:33,549 --> 00:21:34,830 But I guess you could say you didn't 575 00:21:34,830 --> 00:21:37,230 have anything to lose because it's out there. 576 00:21:37,230 --> 00:21:39,630 It's not working or it wasn't working, and 577 00:21:39,630 --> 00:21:41,950 there's no question of of sending an astronaut 578 00:21:41,950 --> 00:21:43,710 to go fix it or swapping out spare 579 00:21:43,710 --> 00:21:46,045 parts or anything like that, is there? Yeah. 580 00:21:46,045 --> 00:21:47,565 You can't get up there with a wrench. 581 00:21:47,565 --> 00:21:49,484 There's no question about that. But it well, 582 00:21:49,484 --> 00:21:51,164 there was a risk. I mean, it's possible 583 00:21:51,164 --> 00:21:53,505 that there was some other process that could 584 00:21:53,964 --> 00:21:56,144 cure it, and we would 585 00:21:56,525 --> 00:21:58,765 do more damage. So we were being very 586 00:21:58,765 --> 00:22:01,200 careful. In other words, you don't wanna heat 587 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:02,960 it up like you said. You know, you 588 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,579 wouldn't wanna heat up your laptop 589 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,339 beyond what it was designed to operate at. 590 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:09,220 We had tested 591 00:22:09,839 --> 00:22:12,799 every electronic system on Juno in order to 592 00:22:12,799 --> 00:22:15,144 see how hot can it go, how cold 593 00:22:15,144 --> 00:22:17,305 can it go. And so we didn't wanna 594 00:22:17,305 --> 00:22:19,384 go beyond those limits. We didn't even wanna 595 00:22:19,384 --> 00:22:22,045 approach those limits because we might break it. 596 00:22:22,424 --> 00:22:24,904 Right? And so you have to be very 597 00:22:24,904 --> 00:22:25,404 careful 598 00:22:25,785 --> 00:22:28,289 while you're doing this, and you have to 599 00:22:28,529 --> 00:22:30,070 build in what you've learned 600 00:22:30,450 --> 00:22:32,210 on the ground, and then you have some 601 00:22:32,210 --> 00:22:34,549 engineering system that you can test it here. 602 00:22:34,690 --> 00:22:36,450 So it's a very complicated, and you have 603 00:22:36,450 --> 00:22:38,609 to be very careful. If you will, you're 604 00:22:38,609 --> 00:22:39,910 you're kind of tiptoeing 605 00:22:40,210 --> 00:22:43,330 through, you know, you're you're walking very very 606 00:22:43,330 --> 00:22:43,830 lightly, 607 00:22:44,345 --> 00:22:46,045 taking small baby steps. 608 00:22:46,744 --> 00:22:48,445 And then as you get closer, 609 00:22:49,144 --> 00:22:51,785 maybe you take more risk and you take 610 00:22:51,785 --> 00:22:53,785 a couple of big jumps, which is what 611 00:22:53,785 --> 00:22:55,945 we did. There was some risk, and it 612 00:22:55,945 --> 00:22:59,085 was not, something that people did casually. 613 00:22:59,659 --> 00:23:02,140 I was very nervous as we were doing 614 00:23:02,140 --> 00:23:04,859 this whether because I didn't wanna break it 615 00:23:04,859 --> 00:23:05,359 completely, 616 00:23:06,220 --> 00:23:07,519 right, which could happen. 617 00:23:08,779 --> 00:23:10,460 So when it worked for the first time, 618 00:23:10,460 --> 00:23:12,220 was there were there shouts of joy in 619 00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:14,605 the control room? What was it like? Absolutely. 620 00:23:14,744 --> 00:23:16,285 Everybody started everybody 621 00:23:16,664 --> 00:23:18,904 went crazy. We couldn't believe that the image 622 00:23:18,904 --> 00:23:20,825 came down, and it was as good as 623 00:23:20,825 --> 00:23:22,984 when we launched it. We were like, oh 624 00:23:22,984 --> 00:23:24,525 my god. This is amazing. 625 00:23:25,144 --> 00:23:26,825 So we, you know, took all the pictures 626 00:23:26,825 --> 00:23:28,970 and took advantage, and then we've been trying 627 00:23:28,970 --> 00:23:30,910 to learn how to do that 628 00:23:31,210 --> 00:23:33,230 on as many subsystems as possible. 629 00:23:33,690 --> 00:23:34,830 Juno offers 630 00:23:35,450 --> 00:23:37,930 kind of a unique experiment in the sense 631 00:23:37,930 --> 00:23:40,490 that because Jupiter is so much more intense 632 00:23:40,490 --> 00:23:43,125 in radiation than the Earth, we can watch 633 00:23:43,125 --> 00:23:45,065 degradation of various systems 634 00:23:45,605 --> 00:23:48,985 and experiment and learn how to undo that 635 00:23:49,605 --> 00:23:51,765 in in, you know, with Juno in a 636 00:23:51,765 --> 00:23:53,525 way that we could never do even with 637 00:23:53,525 --> 00:23:56,200 satellites on the Earth because the time frames 638 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,039 and the time scales of of what you're 639 00:23:58,039 --> 00:23:59,099 gonna see on Jupiter 640 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,720 are so are accelerated. So you can you're 641 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,599 really learning. It's like the perfect laboratory for 642 00:24:04,599 --> 00:24:06,839 this. And it was not, you know, part 643 00:24:06,839 --> 00:24:07,819 of our mission 644 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:08,940 plan 645 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,434 to go learn this, But, you know, 646 00:24:11,974 --> 00:24:14,154 it's just this incredible benefit 647 00:24:14,694 --> 00:24:16,855 that we kind of stumbled into and can 648 00:24:16,855 --> 00:24:18,634 now take advantage of. 649 00:24:19,575 --> 00:24:21,335 And what are the plans for taking advantage 650 00:24:21,335 --> 00:24:23,414 of it apart from keeping Juno going as 651 00:24:23,414 --> 00:24:24,954 long as is humanly possible? 652 00:24:26,470 --> 00:24:28,390 Well, I mean, we want to apply the 653 00:24:28,390 --> 00:24:30,230 engineering and learn this, and then, of course, 654 00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:32,970 we'll document everything and and keep learning it. 655 00:24:33,110 --> 00:24:34,650 But apply it to, 656 00:24:35,029 --> 00:24:36,090 future designs, 657 00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:39,190 satellites that are in around Earth that are 658 00:24:39,190 --> 00:24:39,690 suffering. 659 00:24:40,365 --> 00:24:41,585 Because all the communication 660 00:24:41,884 --> 00:24:43,505 satellites, the civil satellites, 661 00:24:44,445 --> 00:24:46,525 this is really the greatest challenge we have 662 00:24:46,525 --> 00:24:47,984 of satellites on the Earth. 663 00:24:48,445 --> 00:24:52,204 Every kind, even even defense department satellites. This 664 00:24:52,204 --> 00:24:55,345 is gonna help every aspect of space exploration. 665 00:24:55,900 --> 00:24:57,900 Even our ideas of going to the moon 666 00:24:57,900 --> 00:25:00,700 and Mars can be informed by the what 667 00:25:00,700 --> 00:25:01,920 we're learning with Juno. 668 00:25:03,420 --> 00:25:05,179 What does the future look like for the 669 00:25:05,179 --> 00:25:06,079 Juno mission? 670 00:25:06,380 --> 00:25:07,819 Do you have an end date, or is 671 00:25:07,819 --> 00:25:09,974 it just gonna carry on until it breaks? 672 00:25:10,054 --> 00:25:10,634 What's happening? 673 00:25:11,494 --> 00:25:13,994 Well, the end date is is defined by 674 00:25:14,054 --> 00:25:16,315 budget at the moment. And so 675 00:25:16,775 --> 00:25:19,494 we had, been approved with our current budget 676 00:25:19,494 --> 00:25:21,275 to go through the September. 677 00:25:21,974 --> 00:25:24,450 That was our first extended mission that went 678 00:25:24,450 --> 00:25:26,789 from 2021 to 2025. 679 00:25:27,250 --> 00:25:29,490 And then last year, NASA asked us to 680 00:25:29,490 --> 00:25:32,049 put in another three year extension, so we 681 00:25:32,049 --> 00:25:33,970 proposed and showed that we were gonna go 682 00:25:33,970 --> 00:25:37,134 into another really even more interesting region, more 683 00:25:37,134 --> 00:25:39,694 radiation, but into the rings and little moons 684 00:25:39,694 --> 00:25:40,974 and all of the science that could be 685 00:25:40,974 --> 00:25:43,295 done. And so that was reviewed and came 686 00:25:43,295 --> 00:25:45,154 back with, you know, very high recommendations 687 00:25:45,535 --> 00:25:46,755 to continue the mission. 688 00:25:47,775 --> 00:25:50,095 We are also fortunate that originally when we 689 00:25:50,095 --> 00:25:53,029 were launched for something called planetary protection to 690 00:25:53,029 --> 00:25:55,750 make sure Juno didn't crash into Europa, which 691 00:25:55,750 --> 00:25:57,049 might be habitable, 692 00:25:57,670 --> 00:25:59,990 where you had normally to have to dispose 693 00:25:59,990 --> 00:26:02,009 of the spacecraft, send it into Jupiter 694 00:26:02,309 --> 00:26:03,450 to crash and burn. 695 00:26:04,005 --> 00:26:06,164 But once we passed Europa, we couldn't get 696 00:26:06,164 --> 00:26:06,984 back to it. 697 00:26:07,285 --> 00:26:10,244 We were relieved of that requirement. So whenever 698 00:26:10,244 --> 00:26:13,305 Juno ends, we'll just keep going around Jupiter 699 00:26:13,445 --> 00:26:16,325 until it slowly crashes into Jupiter by itself, 700 00:26:16,325 --> 00:26:17,545 but might take decades. 701 00:26:18,659 --> 00:26:20,579 So the trick here is is we can 702 00:26:20,579 --> 00:26:21,079 keep, 703 00:26:21,940 --> 00:26:25,139 doing science as long as the instruments and 704 00:26:25,139 --> 00:26:27,159 the spacecraft are working. Right? 705 00:26:27,460 --> 00:26:29,159 And and we're able to, 706 00:26:29,619 --> 00:26:31,700 and the other is to stay funded so 707 00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:32,599 that we can 708 00:26:33,105 --> 00:26:35,904 continue paying the engineers and the scientists to 709 00:26:35,904 --> 00:26:37,605 produce the data and send it down. 710 00:26:38,224 --> 00:26:40,224 So at the moment, it's a little iffy 711 00:26:40,224 --> 00:26:41,265 because the, 712 00:26:41,664 --> 00:26:43,204 admin US administration's 713 00:26:43,585 --> 00:26:44,085 budgets 714 00:26:44,384 --> 00:26:47,140 are not settled yet for NASA, and so 715 00:26:47,140 --> 00:26:49,380 nobody knows if there's enough money to keep 716 00:26:49,380 --> 00:26:50,279 Juno going 717 00:26:50,660 --> 00:26:53,500 past September or not. And, of course, there's 718 00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:56,740 a you quickly delve into and jump into 719 00:26:56,740 --> 00:26:57,240 politics 720 00:26:58,500 --> 00:26:59,000 where 721 00:26:59,299 --> 00:26:59,880 the congress 722 00:27:00,525 --> 00:27:02,545 has to agree with the president 723 00:27:03,085 --> 00:27:03,984 on the budget 724 00:27:04,365 --> 00:27:06,225 for lots of things, including, 725 00:27:06,924 --> 00:27:07,424 Juno, 726 00:27:08,205 --> 00:27:10,465 and that process is still playing out. 727 00:27:10,924 --> 00:27:13,325 And so in the meantime, we'll just keep 728 00:27:13,325 --> 00:27:15,670 going until either somebody says shut off or 729 00:27:15,670 --> 00:27:16,570 don't shut off. 730 00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:19,509 Juno's gonna keep orbiting regardless of what we 731 00:27:19,509 --> 00:27:20,009 do. 732 00:27:20,950 --> 00:27:23,509 This budget process always happens this way, but 733 00:27:23,509 --> 00:27:24,730 this year has been particularly, 734 00:27:26,070 --> 00:27:27,509 rough, I guess you could say, because there's 735 00:27:27,509 --> 00:27:29,590 been a lot of turnover at NASA, people 736 00:27:29,590 --> 00:27:30,410 taking buyouts, 737 00:27:30,734 --> 00:27:32,674 leaving ahead of proposed budget cuts. 738 00:27:33,055 --> 00:27:34,734 How has that been affecting your work? You 739 00:27:34,734 --> 00:27:36,414 know, what impact does that have on a 740 00:27:36,414 --> 00:27:38,674 science missions like Juno where you're really 741 00:27:39,134 --> 00:27:40,194 reliant on 742 00:27:40,494 --> 00:27:42,734 continuity of expertise because you've been running for 743 00:27:42,734 --> 00:27:45,055 years and you've accumulated a lot of knowledge 744 00:27:45,055 --> 00:27:46,429 about how to do things. 745 00:27:47,450 --> 00:27:50,569 Yeah. I mean, there's, this it's unsettling because 746 00:27:50,569 --> 00:27:51,230 the uncertainty 747 00:27:52,730 --> 00:27:55,450 is driving some people to maybe take early 748 00:27:55,450 --> 00:27:57,869 retirement or to find another job. 749 00:27:58,365 --> 00:28:00,605 And so you lose expertise as you point 750 00:28:00,605 --> 00:28:01,744 out that is unique. 751 00:28:02,525 --> 00:28:05,005 Judo has been spared this. We've had a 752 00:28:05,005 --> 00:28:06,765 couple of people that have gone on, but 753 00:28:06,765 --> 00:28:09,325 it's nothing too disastrous. But, you know, some 754 00:28:09,325 --> 00:28:10,464 missions are more 755 00:28:10,869 --> 00:28:13,509 directly impacted by such a thing. I think 756 00:28:13,509 --> 00:28:15,690 the biggest impact to us is the uncertainty 757 00:28:15,909 --> 00:28:17,210 of what's going to happen, 758 00:28:17,750 --> 00:28:19,450 you know, and we're marching 759 00:28:19,750 --> 00:28:20,250 toward 760 00:28:20,950 --> 00:28:22,009 the September. 761 00:28:22,390 --> 00:28:24,950 What, of course, October 1, in theory, the 762 00:28:24,950 --> 00:28:26,085 budgets would be 763 00:28:26,644 --> 00:28:27,544 agreed to. 764 00:28:28,565 --> 00:28:30,325 And there's a lot of arguments of why 765 00:28:30,325 --> 00:28:32,565 to keep Juno going. Right? Part of it 766 00:28:32,565 --> 00:28:33,065 is 767 00:28:33,365 --> 00:28:35,924 it has all these, positive effects of learning 768 00:28:35,924 --> 00:28:38,565 about radiation, but there's also great science. And 769 00:28:38,565 --> 00:28:40,680 it's in at this point in its life, 770 00:28:40,759 --> 00:28:43,320 it's very efficient. Right? To replace Juno would 771 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,799 be billions of dollars. To keep running it 772 00:28:45,799 --> 00:28:47,100 is tens of millions. 773 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:49,980 And so it's really, 774 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:52,694 advantageous to keep going. 775 00:28:53,255 --> 00:28:55,434 But as you go toward this process, 776 00:28:56,134 --> 00:28:56,954 if Congress 777 00:28:57,494 --> 00:28:58,714 and the administration 778 00:28:59,255 --> 00:28:59,755 don't 779 00:29:00,214 --> 00:29:00,714 agree, 780 00:29:01,654 --> 00:29:03,994 then maybe you go into a continuing resolution 781 00:29:04,214 --> 00:29:06,054 or or even worse, you could have the 782 00:29:06,054 --> 00:29:07,034 government shutdown. 783 00:29:07,910 --> 00:29:11,829 We've experienced shutdowns before. Normally, NASA missions are 784 00:29:11,829 --> 00:29:14,230 exempt from a government shutdown because it's an 785 00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:16,329 asset that you don't wanna lose, 786 00:29:16,630 --> 00:29:18,950 and so you just keep going. You don't 787 00:29:18,950 --> 00:29:20,865 get more money, but you don't get less. 788 00:29:21,825 --> 00:29:24,545 You hope that the government's budget will will 789 00:29:24,545 --> 00:29:26,384 get figured out and sorted out, which has 790 00:29:26,384 --> 00:29:27,525 always happened eventually 791 00:29:28,384 --> 00:29:29,204 in the past. 792 00:29:29,904 --> 00:29:30,404 So, 793 00:29:31,424 --> 00:29:33,424 you know, the trick for us is is 794 00:29:33,424 --> 00:29:33,924 to 795 00:29:34,279 --> 00:29:36,299 try to maintain as much of the expertise 796 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:37,659 as possible because 797 00:29:38,039 --> 00:29:39,819 if you if people leave, 798 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,700 it's it becomes very hard to 799 00:29:43,159 --> 00:29:44,380 regain that expertise. 800 00:29:44,839 --> 00:29:46,919 But we're also pretty deep, so, you know, 801 00:29:46,919 --> 00:29:49,855 we don't there's there's usually not one person 802 00:29:49,855 --> 00:29:51,474 that's so critical like that 803 00:29:51,934 --> 00:29:54,335 because, you know, people also can get sicker 804 00:29:54,335 --> 00:29:57,214 or pass away. Right? So you constantly have 805 00:29:57,214 --> 00:29:59,295 to struggle with that on a long mission 806 00:29:59,295 --> 00:30:01,234 is there is personnel turnover. 807 00:30:02,734 --> 00:30:04,115 And supposing that 808 00:30:04,619 --> 00:30:06,859 both factors line up, you know, both the 809 00:30:06,859 --> 00:30:09,660 radiation damage isn't too bad and the budget 810 00:30:09,660 --> 00:30:11,359 process gets sorted out, 811 00:30:11,820 --> 00:30:14,059 what is your your hope for whatever is 812 00:30:14,059 --> 00:30:16,299 remaining of June? What next project are you 813 00:30:16,299 --> 00:30:17,359 really excited about? 814 00:30:18,025 --> 00:30:20,744 So, it's really exciting because at this point 815 00:30:20,744 --> 00:30:23,565 we're moving into a region that's virtually unexplored. 816 00:30:24,025 --> 00:30:26,505 So what happens is is Jupiter's is not 817 00:30:26,505 --> 00:30:27,644 perfectly spherical. 818 00:30:28,265 --> 00:30:29,944 It's fatter in the middle than it is 819 00:30:29,944 --> 00:30:31,804 at the poles. We call it oblate. 820 00:30:32,420 --> 00:30:33,799 And that makes our 821 00:30:34,339 --> 00:30:35,480 orbit twist. 822 00:30:35,940 --> 00:30:38,259 So it was an it's an ellipse, right, 823 00:30:38,259 --> 00:30:40,500 and we're the close part to Jupiter that's 824 00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:42,819 really close to 5,000 kilometer over the cloud 825 00:30:42,819 --> 00:30:45,220 tops, started out near the Equator, and that 826 00:30:45,220 --> 00:30:47,220 part is just moving further and further north. 827 00:30:47,220 --> 00:30:49,404 It's almost going over the North Pole. 828 00:30:49,945 --> 00:30:51,865 And so that means that as you come 829 00:30:51,865 --> 00:30:52,365 into 830 00:30:52,904 --> 00:30:56,445 to as Juno is approaches Jupiter, it's moving 831 00:30:56,505 --> 00:30:57,964 in closer and closer 832 00:30:58,505 --> 00:30:59,884 in closer to Jupiter 833 00:31:01,305 --> 00:31:03,839 because the orbit is twisting around, and that's 834 00:31:03,839 --> 00:31:06,099 causing us to go into through more radiation 835 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,799 that we originally were trying to avoid. But 836 00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:11,220 it's also going into a region where Jupiter's 837 00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:11,779 rings 838 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,579 and a collection of inner moons exist 839 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,420 that are virtually unexplored, 840 00:31:16,884 --> 00:31:19,785 and they coexist with the radiation, the rings, 841 00:31:19,845 --> 00:31:21,704 and these inner moons are all together. 842 00:31:22,164 --> 00:31:24,325 Nobody really knows much about these inner moons. 843 00:31:24,325 --> 00:31:26,724 They may be tied to, like, asteroids where 844 00:31:26,724 --> 00:31:28,984 they were captured. They might be formed there. 845 00:31:29,044 --> 00:31:31,044 We don't know how much ice versus rock 846 00:31:31,044 --> 00:31:33,930 they are. So Juno offers the first real 847 00:31:33,930 --> 00:31:35,630 exploration of that system. 848 00:31:36,490 --> 00:31:37,710 In addition to 849 00:31:38,089 --> 00:31:40,170 I mentioned that we're going out now poking 850 00:31:40,170 --> 00:31:42,809 out into the beyond the magnetosphere into what's 851 00:31:42,809 --> 00:31:44,025 called the solar wind. 852 00:31:44,505 --> 00:31:46,664 We will be doing that even more. So 853 00:31:46,664 --> 00:31:48,744 we will get the shape of Jupiter's three 854 00:31:48,744 --> 00:31:49,484 d magnetosphere, 855 00:31:50,265 --> 00:31:52,424 which has never really been understood or and 856 00:31:52,424 --> 00:31:54,424 there's really no other spacecraft that can do 857 00:31:54,424 --> 00:31:56,585 this. We also will go over the poles 858 00:31:56,585 --> 00:31:58,424 closer and closer. We may be able to 859 00:31:58,424 --> 00:32:00,049 study those polar cyclones 860 00:32:00,509 --> 00:32:02,990 and understand how much mass or even how 861 00:32:02,990 --> 00:32:04,049 deep they go. 862 00:32:04,429 --> 00:32:05,569 We will learn about 863 00:32:06,029 --> 00:32:08,690 something called tidal forces, which is, 864 00:32:09,549 --> 00:32:12,349 so there's there's these moons of the of 865 00:32:12,349 --> 00:32:15,134 the giant planets we call ocean worlds, where 866 00:32:15,134 --> 00:32:17,455 there's an ocean underneath the ice crust. Those 867 00:32:17,455 --> 00:32:19,695 are very interesting because maybe they're habitable. So 868 00:32:19,695 --> 00:32:22,275 Europa and Ganymede are two examples of those. 869 00:32:22,654 --> 00:32:24,994 And but nobody really understands exactly 870 00:32:25,615 --> 00:32:28,115 how tidal forces work. We know it squeezes 871 00:32:28,734 --> 00:32:31,700 the planet or the moon and produces heat, 872 00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:33,700 but it's not clear exactly how it works. 873 00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:34,680 It also produces 874 00:32:35,059 --> 00:32:37,960 the volcanoes on Io. But by studying, 875 00:32:38,660 --> 00:32:41,539 these little inner moons and how they're orbiting 876 00:32:41,539 --> 00:32:43,960 really close and getting some images of those, 877 00:32:44,234 --> 00:32:46,795 we will learn about those tidal forces for 878 00:32:46,795 --> 00:32:48,714 the first time. And this is another unique 879 00:32:48,714 --> 00:32:50,634 experiment, and that will tell us about how 880 00:32:50,634 --> 00:32:53,855 Jupiter's inner interior works and how it affects 881 00:32:54,315 --> 00:32:55,615 other satellites, which 882 00:32:55,914 --> 00:32:57,454 must be happening throughout 883 00:32:57,809 --> 00:32:59,730 our solar system in the universe in all 884 00:32:59,730 --> 00:33:02,069 of these exoplanetary systems as well. 885 00:33:02,529 --> 00:33:04,929 So there's a lot of incredible science that 886 00:33:04,929 --> 00:33:07,169 can be done, as well as learning about 887 00:33:07,169 --> 00:33:08,149 the polar cyclones, 888 00:33:08,529 --> 00:33:11,509 about the temperature profile. So at this point 889 00:33:11,569 --> 00:33:12,470 now, Jupiter 890 00:33:13,285 --> 00:33:15,065 has moved around the sun, so, 891 00:33:15,605 --> 00:33:18,164 Juno goes behind Jupiter, and we do something 892 00:33:18,164 --> 00:33:19,224 we call occultations, 893 00:33:20,244 --> 00:33:23,464 where we actually normally a solar, you know, 894 00:33:23,525 --> 00:33:25,605 solar powered spacecraft, you wanna stay in the 895 00:33:25,605 --> 00:33:28,490 sunlight. We go into Jupiter's shadow, but we 896 00:33:28,490 --> 00:33:31,130 pass our radio beam through the atmosphere as 897 00:33:31,130 --> 00:33:32,890 we go in and out of shadow, and 898 00:33:32,890 --> 00:33:34,830 we learn about the atmosphere. 899 00:33:35,289 --> 00:33:37,450 And you learn about the temperature profile, the 900 00:33:37,450 --> 00:33:39,230 density of charged particles. 901 00:33:39,690 --> 00:33:41,070 And so what we're learning 902 00:33:41,529 --> 00:33:43,724 is maybe how the equatorial 903 00:33:44,505 --> 00:33:47,464 atmosphere is different than the polar. So how 904 00:33:47,464 --> 00:33:48,845 does the aurora, 905 00:33:49,224 --> 00:33:50,845 which is depositing energy, 906 00:33:51,464 --> 00:33:52,284 get translated 907 00:33:53,065 --> 00:33:55,384 and moved and transported around to the rest 908 00:33:55,384 --> 00:33:57,509 of Jupiter? So there's an immense amount of 909 00:33:57,509 --> 00:33:59,269 science that can be done in this in 910 00:33:59,269 --> 00:34:00,569 this next phase. 911 00:34:01,269 --> 00:34:03,109 And and that's why when we wrote it 912 00:34:03,109 --> 00:34:06,169 up, it was, you know, incredibly highly recommended 913 00:34:06,389 --> 00:34:08,789 to continue because it's brand new. A lot 914 00:34:08,789 --> 00:34:10,735 of extended missions are sort of more of 915 00:34:10,735 --> 00:34:12,675 the same. You follow-up on discoveries. 916 00:34:13,215 --> 00:34:15,695 This is like a completely new mission. And 917 00:34:15,695 --> 00:34:17,695 our first extended mission was like that too 918 00:34:17,695 --> 00:34:19,855 because we the first one, you know, the 919 00:34:19,855 --> 00:34:22,414 primary mission we focused on Jupiter. The first 920 00:34:22,414 --> 00:34:25,539 extended mission, we flew by Ganymede, Europa, and 921 00:34:25,539 --> 00:34:26,039 Io 922 00:34:26,500 --> 00:34:27,000 close-up 923 00:34:27,460 --> 00:34:28,440 for the first time 924 00:34:29,139 --> 00:34:31,460 in, you know, decades with new kinds of 925 00:34:31,460 --> 00:34:33,699 instruments. Right? So we were able to see 926 00:34:33,699 --> 00:34:36,820 how deep the ice is on Europa and 927 00:34:36,820 --> 00:34:38,760 Ganymede and learn about 928 00:34:39,554 --> 00:34:41,494 the volcanoes and things on Io. 929 00:34:41,795 --> 00:34:43,714 That's one of the most surprising things about 930 00:34:43,714 --> 00:34:45,815 Juno is because of this orbit evolution. 931 00:34:46,514 --> 00:34:48,675 As it goes on from one step to 932 00:34:48,675 --> 00:34:50,694 the next, it's a brand new mission. 933 00:34:51,980 --> 00:34:53,420 Best of luck with the next phase of 934 00:34:53,420 --> 00:34:55,099 that mission. Scott Bolton, thank you very much 935 00:34:55,099 --> 00:34:56,539 for being on the podcast. It's been a 936 00:34:56,539 --> 00:34:57,039 pleasure. 937 00:34:57,420 --> 00:34:58,859 It's been a pleasure of mine, and I 938 00:34:58,859 --> 00:35:01,279 really appreciate you helping to share the excitement 939 00:35:01,420 --> 00:35:02,799 of Juno with everybody. 940 00:35:11,195 --> 00:35:13,695 That was Juno's principal investigator, 941 00:35:14,074 --> 00:35:15,054 Scott Bolton, 942 00:35:15,515 --> 00:35:18,735 in conversation with Physics World's Margaret Harris. 943 00:35:19,530 --> 00:35:21,390 Thanks to both of them for a fascinating 944 00:35:21,610 --> 00:35:24,269 discussion about Jupiter and the challenges 945 00:35:24,650 --> 00:35:26,590 of exploring the solar system. 946 00:35:27,130 --> 00:35:29,230 And a special thanks to our producer, 947 00:35:29,690 --> 00:35:30,670 Fred Isles. 948 00:35:31,289 --> 00:35:33,135 We'll be back again next week. 949 00:35:33,454 --> 00:35:34,114 See you 950 00:35:41,215 --> 00:35:41,715 then.