1 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,039 Hello, and welcome to this episode of the 2 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:12,820 Physics World Weekly Podcast, 3 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,939 which is sponsored by the Kavli Prize. 4 00:00:16,535 --> 00:00:19,175 I'm Hamish Johnston, and I'm very pleased to 5 00:00:19,175 --> 00:00:21,035 be joined by the astrochemist 6 00:00:21,655 --> 00:00:23,355 and Kavli Prize laureate, 7 00:00:23,894 --> 00:00:25,275 Uwina van Dishoek, 8 00:00:25,815 --> 00:00:28,554 who is professor emeritus of molecular 9 00:00:29,015 --> 00:00:29,515 astrophysics 10 00:00:30,119 --> 00:00:31,820 at the Leiden Observatory 11 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:33,100 in The Netherlands. 12 00:00:34,039 --> 00:00:37,239 Our conversation is coming up after a word 13 00:00:37,239 --> 00:00:38,299 from our sponsor. 14 00:00:39,239 --> 00:00:43,100 The Kavli Prize honors scientists for basic research 15 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:43,659 breakthroughs 16 00:00:44,255 --> 00:00:45,155 in astrophysics, 17 00:00:45,935 --> 00:00:46,435 nanoscience, 18 00:00:46,975 --> 00:00:47,875 and neuroscience, 19 00:00:48,895 --> 00:00:49,395 transforming 20 00:00:49,855 --> 00:00:50,675 our understanding 21 00:00:51,054 --> 00:00:54,115 of the big, the small, and the complex. 22 00:00:55,135 --> 00:00:56,515 The biennial prize 23 00:00:56,895 --> 00:00:59,155 awards $1,000,000 24 00:00:59,469 --> 00:01:01,890 in each of these three fields. 25 00:01:02,750 --> 00:01:05,390 You can play a crucial role in helping 26 00:01:05,390 --> 00:01:07,170 to recognize the trailblazers 27 00:01:08,030 --> 00:01:09,090 in your field 28 00:01:09,469 --> 00:01:12,450 by nominating them for the Kavli prize 29 00:01:12,775 --> 00:01:15,354 during the global call for nominations, 30 00:01:16,295 --> 00:01:19,944 which is open between July 1 and October 31 00:01:19,944 --> 00:01:20,474 1. 32 00:01:20,935 --> 00:01:24,234 Please visit kavliprize.org 33 00:01:24,454 --> 00:01:25,594 for more information. 34 00:01:26,980 --> 00:01:28,500 In 2018, 35 00:01:28,500 --> 00:01:31,620 Uwina van Dishoek won the Kavli Prize in 36 00:01:31,620 --> 00:01:32,120 Astrophysics 37 00:01:32,819 --> 00:01:33,879 for her combined 38 00:01:34,260 --> 00:01:34,760 contributions 39 00:01:35,459 --> 00:01:36,439 to observational, 40 00:01:37,140 --> 00:01:37,640 theoretical, 41 00:01:38,099 --> 00:01:38,920 and laboratory 42 00:01:39,540 --> 00:01:40,040 astrochemistry, 43 00:01:41,355 --> 00:01:41,855 elucidating 44 00:01:42,234 --> 00:01:45,674 the life cycle of interstellar clouds and the 45 00:01:45,674 --> 00:01:48,254 formation of stars and planets. 46 00:01:49,114 --> 00:01:51,935 She joins me down the line from Leiden. 47 00:01:52,394 --> 00:01:53,454 Hello, Iwina. 48 00:01:53,834 --> 00:01:55,135 Welcome to the podcast. 49 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,040 Hello. It's a pleasure for me to be 50 00:01:58,040 --> 00:01:58,540 here. 51 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,439 So, Ewina, your field of research, it's it's 52 00:02:02,439 --> 00:02:03,180 a fascinating 53 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:05,900 combination of observational astronomy, 54 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:07,180 astrophysics, 55 00:02:07,719 --> 00:02:08,459 and chemistry. 56 00:02:09,075 --> 00:02:11,175 Can you give us a brief introduction 57 00:02:11,474 --> 00:02:12,615 to astrochemistry? 58 00:02:14,754 --> 00:02:15,254 Indeed. 59 00:02:15,715 --> 00:02:16,775 My field of astrochemistry 60 00:02:17,075 --> 00:02:17,895 is a combination 61 00:02:18,514 --> 00:02:20,534 of both astronomy and chemistry 62 00:02:20,835 --> 00:02:21,655 and sometimes 63 00:02:21,955 --> 00:02:22,455 even, 64 00:02:23,169 --> 00:02:23,990 other areas, 65 00:02:24,370 --> 00:02:25,270 come in there. 66 00:02:25,650 --> 00:02:28,530 But, basically, what we do is the study 67 00:02:28,530 --> 00:02:29,349 of the formation, 68 00:02:29,810 --> 00:02:32,069 destruction, and excitation of molecules 69 00:02:32,530 --> 00:02:33,510 under the rather 70 00:02:33,969 --> 00:02:36,849 exotic conditions that we have in interstellar space. 71 00:02:36,849 --> 00:02:40,384 So space is very empty. Densities are, say, 72 00:02:40,384 --> 00:02:42,564 a million times lower than the best 73 00:02:42,944 --> 00:02:45,025 ultra high vacuum that we have in a 74 00:02:45,025 --> 00:02:48,004 laboratory on Earth. And also very low temperatures, 75 00:02:48,064 --> 00:02:50,324 and sometimes very harsh UV radiation. 76 00:02:51,009 --> 00:02:54,310 So studying the chemistry under those exotic conditions, 77 00:02:54,449 --> 00:02:57,270 that's sort of the chemistry part of astrochemistry. 78 00:02:58,770 --> 00:03:00,930 But the field is is is actually much 79 00:03:00,930 --> 00:03:01,729 more than that. 80 00:03:02,129 --> 00:03:03,909 There's also an astronomy part, 81 00:03:04,564 --> 00:03:07,125 because molecules actually have an influence on their 82 00:03:07,125 --> 00:03:07,625 environment, 83 00:03:08,245 --> 00:03:10,504 because they are major coolants of the gas. 84 00:03:11,044 --> 00:03:13,444 When you excite a molecule and it emits 85 00:03:13,444 --> 00:03:14,104 a photon 86 00:03:14,564 --> 00:03:16,745 and that photon escapes from the cloud, 87 00:03:17,044 --> 00:03:19,064 then actually the gas cools down. 88 00:03:19,449 --> 00:03:21,849 So they actually also set the temperature of 89 00:03:21,849 --> 00:03:24,430 these clouds. They can be used as remote 90 00:03:24,489 --> 00:03:24,989 thermometers 91 00:03:25,370 --> 00:03:26,269 through the excitation. 92 00:03:27,769 --> 00:03:30,750 They are also exquisite tracers of the kinematics 93 00:03:30,889 --> 00:03:32,205 and dynamics of clouds. 94 00:03:33,405 --> 00:03:36,125 So astronomy wise, there is a lot to 95 00:03:36,125 --> 00:03:37,665 do with molecules, and, 96 00:03:38,125 --> 00:03:40,384 astronomers are now using that to study, 97 00:03:41,564 --> 00:03:43,965 the gas not just in the Milky Way, 98 00:03:43,965 --> 00:03:46,430 but even molecular gas at the edge of 99 00:03:46,430 --> 00:03:48,769 the universe in very distant galaxies. 100 00:03:49,870 --> 00:03:52,909 I see. And my understanding is that most 101 00:03:52,909 --> 00:03:55,009 of your work is is theoretical 102 00:03:55,870 --> 00:03:56,370 astrochemistry. 103 00:03:56,909 --> 00:03:59,025 Would that would that be right? You're you 104 00:03:59,025 --> 00:04:00,805 don't spend all of your time 105 00:04:01,344 --> 00:04:02,165 in the lab 106 00:04:02,625 --> 00:04:04,564 like we would think of as a 107 00:04:05,425 --> 00:04:07,284 a a traditional chemist. But 108 00:04:07,985 --> 00:04:08,965 I'm just wondering 109 00:04:11,199 --> 00:04:11,699 how 110 00:04:12,159 --> 00:04:14,159 how you make the connection? How how can 111 00:04:14,159 --> 00:04:15,520 you make the connection with the sort of 112 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,620 chemistry that we do here on Earth 113 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,579 and the chemistry that occurs in the cosmos? 114 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:21,220 Because, 115 00:04:21,774 --> 00:04:24,175 you know, as you've alluded to, it it's 116 00:04:24,175 --> 00:04:26,175 a very different place, isn't it, in terms 117 00:04:26,175 --> 00:04:28,354 of density and radiation and 118 00:04:28,654 --> 00:04:29,954 all that sort of stuff? 119 00:04:30,974 --> 00:04:33,375 Yeah. So indeed, I started actually out as 120 00:04:33,375 --> 00:04:34,649 a theoretical chemist 121 00:04:35,850 --> 00:04:38,810 before I even knew of interstellar space and 122 00:04:38,810 --> 00:04:39,870 the molecules there, 123 00:04:40,569 --> 00:04:41,389 quantum chemistry. 124 00:04:42,410 --> 00:04:45,050 So that was the very early part of 125 00:04:45,050 --> 00:04:45,789 my career. 126 00:04:46,250 --> 00:04:48,669 And then over sort of the last decades, 127 00:04:48,729 --> 00:04:51,704 I have become much more involved in observations, 128 00:04:53,204 --> 00:04:56,185 and also indeed to some degree in laboratory 129 00:04:56,485 --> 00:04:57,625 experiments, at least, 130 00:04:58,564 --> 00:05:01,365 overseeing and supervising a number of the the 131 00:05:01,365 --> 00:05:01,865 laboratory 132 00:05:02,165 --> 00:05:04,425 experiments that are going on in Leiden. 133 00:05:05,579 --> 00:05:08,060 So there are lead challenges. So on the 134 00:05:08,060 --> 00:05:10,220 one hand, you know, sometimes you have molecules 135 00:05:10,220 --> 00:05:11,979 in space that you don't even have on 136 00:05:11,979 --> 00:05:12,959 Earth. So, 137 00:05:13,660 --> 00:05:14,160 they're, 138 00:05:15,500 --> 00:05:18,694 very short lived. Radicals and ions are very 139 00:05:18,694 --> 00:05:21,175 short lived under Earth conditions, but they can 140 00:05:21,175 --> 00:05:23,495 be very stable molecules in space. And so 141 00:05:23,495 --> 00:05:25,495 then it's very good actually to study them 142 00:05:25,495 --> 00:05:28,235 in a computer because the computer doesn't care, 143 00:05:29,095 --> 00:05:31,710 whether where the molecule is. And so we 144 00:05:31,710 --> 00:05:33,790 have learned a lot about that, for example, 145 00:05:33,790 --> 00:05:34,610 of how molecules, 146 00:05:35,470 --> 00:05:37,009 fall apart under the, 147 00:05:38,189 --> 00:05:39,490 under UV radiation. 148 00:05:40,270 --> 00:05:43,069 So, the process of photo dissociation. So that 149 00:05:43,069 --> 00:05:45,470 has been one aspect that was very well 150 00:05:45,470 --> 00:05:45,855 suited 151 00:05:46,335 --> 00:05:47,795 for studying both 152 00:05:48,415 --> 00:05:49,875 here on Earth, but also 153 00:05:50,175 --> 00:05:50,915 in space. 154 00:05:51,775 --> 00:05:52,275 Other 155 00:05:52,654 --> 00:05:55,535 aspects like laboratory experiments, like we do in 156 00:05:55,535 --> 00:05:56,035 Leiden, 157 00:05:58,014 --> 00:06:00,900 there the temperature is is not so difficult. 158 00:06:00,900 --> 00:06:02,900 We can reach the very low temperatures in 159 00:06:02,900 --> 00:06:05,400 the laboratory, and we can freeze out molecules 160 00:06:05,460 --> 00:06:07,939 on the surfaces there. We can study their 161 00:06:07,939 --> 00:06:08,439 spectroscopy 162 00:06:08,900 --> 00:06:12,435 and directly compare that with what we see 163 00:06:12,435 --> 00:06:14,675 in space. That's actually what we use to 164 00:06:14,675 --> 00:06:16,454 identify molecules in space, 165 00:06:16,754 --> 00:06:17,894 study the spectroscopy, 166 00:06:19,634 --> 00:06:20,134 in, 167 00:06:20,995 --> 00:06:22,915 here in the lab because the the laws 168 00:06:22,915 --> 00:06:25,634 of quantum mechanics are basically the same on 169 00:06:25,634 --> 00:06:26,040 Earth 170 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:27,819 and, and in space. 171 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:30,839 So that works also very well. What doesn't 172 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:32,620 work so well is the time scales. 173 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:35,500 Chemical process 174 00:06:35,879 --> 00:06:38,759 in space can take maybe, you know, hundreds 175 00:06:38,759 --> 00:06:40,620 of thousands or a billion years. 176 00:06:40,955 --> 00:06:42,314 And and, of course, on Earth in our 177 00:06:42,314 --> 00:06:44,154 lab, we want to do it in a 178 00:06:44,154 --> 00:06:46,254 few hours, at least within a day. 179 00:06:47,275 --> 00:06:49,835 So that means we're always working at higher 180 00:06:49,835 --> 00:06:52,415 densities than in space, and we have to 181 00:06:52,475 --> 00:06:53,519 extrapolate that, 182 00:06:54,399 --> 00:06:56,399 to the conditions of space. But there there 183 00:06:56,399 --> 00:06:57,699 are ways of doing that. 184 00:06:58,479 --> 00:07:00,800 I see. And and what are some of 185 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,539 the the important unanswered questions 186 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:04,740 in astrochemistry 187 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,120 today? What are what are you and your 188 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:08,639 colleagues really keen on, 189 00:07:09,574 --> 00:07:10,394 on discovering? 190 00:07:11,334 --> 00:07:13,334 Right. So there there are some questions in 191 00:07:13,334 --> 00:07:14,235 terms of chemistry. 192 00:07:14,615 --> 00:07:16,694 For example, we now think that many of 193 00:07:16,694 --> 00:07:19,894 the important molecules like water and also some 194 00:07:19,894 --> 00:07:21,354 of the more complex ones 195 00:07:21,750 --> 00:07:24,310 are formed primarily on the surfaces of these 196 00:07:24,310 --> 00:07:25,930 tiny little dust grains, 197 00:07:26,389 --> 00:07:27,689 micron sized silicates 198 00:07:28,069 --> 00:07:30,150 and carbonaceous material that is, 199 00:07:31,189 --> 00:07:33,529 in this, class between the stars. 200 00:07:34,694 --> 00:07:36,935 These grains are not catalysts in a chemical 201 00:07:36,935 --> 00:07:38,394 sense, but they are sort 202 00:07:38,774 --> 00:07:41,974 of bring the various atoms and molecules together 203 00:07:41,974 --> 00:07:44,074 in a sort of meet and greet, 204 00:07:45,014 --> 00:07:45,514 sense, 205 00:07:45,974 --> 00:07:48,259 to form new molecules. But how exactly does 206 00:07:48,259 --> 00:07:49,000 this happen? 207 00:07:49,379 --> 00:07:51,000 That is a big question. 208 00:07:51,540 --> 00:07:53,139 We've also seen some of these, 209 00:07:53,540 --> 00:07:55,800 large polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons 210 00:07:56,100 --> 00:07:59,480 in space, whole, families of them even, 211 00:08:00,305 --> 00:08:01,764 in very distant galaxies. 212 00:08:02,225 --> 00:08:04,404 But some of these molecules like 213 00:08:04,785 --> 00:08:05,285 cyanobenzene 214 00:08:05,904 --> 00:08:06,884 and even cyanopyrine, 215 00:08:09,264 --> 00:08:10,564 detected by other groups, 216 00:08:11,264 --> 00:08:13,410 are now found and in very cold and 217 00:08:13,410 --> 00:08:15,410 tenuous conditions, how do you make them there 218 00:08:15,410 --> 00:08:18,370 already? These complex, you know, pyrene four benzene 219 00:08:18,370 --> 00:08:18,870 rings. 220 00:08:19,410 --> 00:08:21,110 How do you make them in research, 221 00:08:21,650 --> 00:08:23,270 cold and tenuous conditions? 222 00:08:24,370 --> 00:08:26,470 But I think the biggest question 223 00:08:26,850 --> 00:08:27,285 that, 224 00:08:28,084 --> 00:08:29,625 we have the overarching 225 00:08:30,004 --> 00:08:30,504 questions, 226 00:08:31,125 --> 00:08:33,304 I would say, of our field is, 227 00:08:33,924 --> 00:08:35,945 the chemical evolution of the universe. 228 00:08:36,804 --> 00:08:39,445 For example, at the very highest redshifts, which 229 00:08:39,445 --> 00:08:41,129 molecules can be formed there? 230 00:08:42,090 --> 00:08:43,710 If, say, half a billion 231 00:08:44,410 --> 00:08:46,809 years after the Big Bang, you have much 232 00:08:46,809 --> 00:08:48,830 less carbon and oxygen available. 233 00:08:49,690 --> 00:08:51,710 Yet we know that our molecules there. 234 00:08:52,570 --> 00:08:54,250 What kind of molecules do you make? What 235 00:08:54,250 --> 00:08:55,309 role do they have? 236 00:08:55,850 --> 00:08:56,590 And then 237 00:08:57,335 --> 00:08:57,995 one of 238 00:08:58,615 --> 00:09:00,715 the, big questions that certainly, 239 00:09:02,055 --> 00:09:04,154 is not a focus of much astrochemistry 240 00:09:04,535 --> 00:09:05,035 research 241 00:09:05,894 --> 00:09:07,915 is much closer to home. 242 00:09:08,934 --> 00:09:11,355 The chemical evolution from these 243 00:09:11,735 --> 00:09:14,929 telesus clouds to planets. We now know that's 244 00:09:14,929 --> 00:09:17,169 the you know, our galaxy is teeming with 245 00:09:17,169 --> 00:09:19,570 planets. On average, every star has at least 246 00:09:19,570 --> 00:09:20,309 one planet. 247 00:09:20,690 --> 00:09:22,850 You know, what sets the chemical composition of 248 00:09:22,850 --> 00:09:23,590 these exoplanets, 249 00:09:24,370 --> 00:09:25,269 and their atmospheres? 250 00:09:26,855 --> 00:09:29,495 You know, what is basically the root of 251 00:09:29,495 --> 00:09:30,315 these molecules 252 00:09:30,774 --> 00:09:33,034 from clouds to planets? 253 00:09:33,335 --> 00:09:35,095 And I think that is a a very 254 00:09:35,095 --> 00:09:36,554 big question that will, 255 00:09:37,174 --> 00:09:39,575 is being tackled now, and it will certainly 256 00:09:39,575 --> 00:09:41,595 still take some time to to answer. 257 00:09:42,190 --> 00:09:44,990 I wanted to ask you about exoplanets because, 258 00:09:44,990 --> 00:09:46,829 you know, over the past thirty years or 259 00:09:46,829 --> 00:09:49,329 so, there's just been an explosion 260 00:09:49,789 --> 00:09:52,509 in the number of exoplanets that have been 261 00:09:52,509 --> 00:09:53,570 observed, and 262 00:09:54,044 --> 00:09:56,684 our understanding of exoplanets has gone from pretty 263 00:09:56,684 --> 00:09:57,504 well zero 264 00:09:58,044 --> 00:10:00,205 to, well, we know that there's a lot 265 00:10:00,205 --> 00:10:01,345 of them out there. 266 00:10:01,644 --> 00:10:03,664 It is I mean, that must have been 267 00:10:04,044 --> 00:10:05,105 very exciting, 268 00:10:05,964 --> 00:10:07,424 for you and your colleagues 269 00:10:07,779 --> 00:10:10,039 in astrochem chemistry to see. 270 00:10:10,580 --> 00:10:12,179 I mean, in a sense, it's it's a 271 00:10:12,179 --> 00:10:15,399 whole a whole new field really has emerged, 272 00:10:16,339 --> 00:10:17,639 because of these exoplanets. 273 00:10:18,500 --> 00:10:19,480 Yes. Absolutely. 274 00:10:19,940 --> 00:10:20,419 And, 275 00:10:20,820 --> 00:10:21,720 it is interesting 276 00:10:22,019 --> 00:10:24,504 that, of course, it started that revolution in 277 00:10:24,504 --> 00:10:25,465 1995 278 00:10:25,465 --> 00:10:28,345 that was actually the same time that also 279 00:10:28,345 --> 00:10:30,205 these planet forming discs 280 00:10:30,585 --> 00:10:33,465 that had been postulated for centuries, you know, 281 00:10:33,465 --> 00:10:35,644 by Kant, Laplace, Swedenborg, 282 00:10:37,309 --> 00:10:39,549 that these planet forming disc, the rotating discs 283 00:10:39,549 --> 00:10:42,669 of gas and dust, around young stars in 284 00:10:42,669 --> 00:10:45,250 which the planets are made were finally being 285 00:10:46,110 --> 00:10:47,970 discovered and imaged and, 286 00:10:48,429 --> 00:10:50,565 studied. So this has gone, 287 00:10:51,024 --> 00:10:52,865 actually hand in hand. On the one hand, 288 00:10:52,865 --> 00:10:55,584 the discovery of exoplanets and that field now 289 00:10:55,584 --> 00:10:56,644 shifting from 290 00:10:57,024 --> 00:10:58,245 discovery of exoplanets 291 00:10:58,625 --> 00:11:02,804 to actually characterizing them, characterizing their chemical composition 292 00:11:03,419 --> 00:11:04,620 To at the same time, 293 00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:08,559 these discs being studied with, you know, increasing 294 00:11:08,779 --> 00:11:09,279 detail, 295 00:11:10,059 --> 00:11:14,059 with various telescopes. So it's it's a very 296 00:11:14,059 --> 00:11:17,134 interesting sort of two tracks that have been 297 00:11:17,134 --> 00:11:19,534 going on and that are now, you know, 298 00:11:19,534 --> 00:11:20,754 starting to come together. 299 00:11:21,934 --> 00:11:23,554 Yeah. That that that's fascinating. 300 00:11:24,335 --> 00:11:26,894 Can you talk a bit about the research 301 00:11:26,894 --> 00:11:29,134 that you're doing right now? What what what 302 00:11:29,134 --> 00:11:30,514 are you up to in Leiden? 303 00:11:31,620 --> 00:11:32,019 Yeah. 304 00:11:32,819 --> 00:11:35,620 So, lots of things are happening, at this 305 00:11:35,620 --> 00:11:36,120 moment. 306 00:11:37,139 --> 00:11:39,379 If I take a small step back, I 307 00:11:39,379 --> 00:11:41,779 would say that in the the first decades 308 00:11:41,779 --> 00:11:44,039 of my career, we have been focused mostly 309 00:11:44,100 --> 00:11:46,115 on studying this chemical evolution 310 00:11:46,415 --> 00:11:47,715 from the clouds 311 00:11:48,174 --> 00:11:49,394 to these protoplanetary 312 00:11:49,934 --> 00:11:52,674 disks. We've been studying the ice composition, 313 00:11:53,455 --> 00:11:56,815 a simple molecule, simple ices like water, carbon 314 00:11:56,815 --> 00:11:57,315 dioxide, 315 00:11:57,695 --> 00:11:59,875 and now also the more complex molecules, 316 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,220 both in the gas and the ice. 317 00:12:03,639 --> 00:12:06,200 And what has been happening actually in the 318 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,519 last decade is that we have made a 319 00:12:08,519 --> 00:12:09,019 switch 320 00:12:09,879 --> 00:12:10,379 from, 321 00:12:11,639 --> 00:12:14,120 first clouds to disks and now actually from 322 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:15,164 disks to planets. 323 00:12:16,125 --> 00:12:18,865 And that has been enabled by the, Atacama 324 00:12:19,004 --> 00:12:22,605 Large Millimeter Array, which has now allowed us 325 00:12:22,605 --> 00:12:24,924 not just to detect these discs, but actually 326 00:12:24,924 --> 00:12:27,245 to zoom in into these discs on on 327 00:12:27,245 --> 00:12:28,544 solar system scales. 328 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,179 And, that we can study the chemical distribution, 329 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:33,940 there, 330 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,759 and see where the dust and the the 331 00:12:37,759 --> 00:12:38,659 ices accumulate, 332 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:41,059 and also reveal, 333 00:12:41,759 --> 00:12:44,534 actually, surprisingly rich chemistry in these discs. 334 00:12:45,975 --> 00:12:47,574 And then also at the same time, the 335 00:12:47,574 --> 00:12:48,875 James Webb Space Telescope, 336 00:12:50,375 --> 00:12:52,315 which works at infrared wavelengths, 337 00:12:52,855 --> 00:12:53,914 which actually, 338 00:12:55,174 --> 00:12:57,495 can study the warmer gas in the inner 339 00:12:57,495 --> 00:12:59,419 part of the disk, say, the inner few 340 00:12:59,419 --> 00:13:01,200 astronomical units inside 341 00:13:02,220 --> 00:13:04,139 what in our solar system would be, say, 342 00:13:04,139 --> 00:13:05,440 the orbit of Jupiter. 343 00:13:05,820 --> 00:13:07,919 And that's where terrestrial planets are forming. 344 00:13:08,460 --> 00:13:08,940 And, 345 00:13:09,340 --> 00:13:11,519 that is where we and I also study, 346 00:13:13,019 --> 00:13:14,475 the the the chemistry 347 00:13:14,934 --> 00:13:18,054 of various simple molecules and also more complex 348 00:13:18,054 --> 00:13:21,095 ones in great detail. So so we're starting 349 00:13:21,095 --> 00:13:22,794 sort of to to to map, 350 00:13:23,815 --> 00:13:25,195 these discs and, 351 00:13:25,654 --> 00:13:27,335 both from the inner to the outer part 352 00:13:27,335 --> 00:13:28,235 in more detail. 353 00:13:28,820 --> 00:13:30,980 Sometimes I like to compare this also with, 354 00:13:31,779 --> 00:13:33,779 you know, how Google Maps was in the 355 00:13:33,779 --> 00:13:35,240 early days. You know? 356 00:13:35,779 --> 00:13:37,940 A city was one big blob, and you 357 00:13:37,940 --> 00:13:40,544 couldn't see anything in it. And now with 358 00:13:41,024 --> 00:13:44,245 OMA and to some degree also with JWST, 359 00:13:44,544 --> 00:13:46,464 we can now with OMA, we can now 360 00:13:46,464 --> 00:13:48,565 see the the houses, the canals. 361 00:13:48,945 --> 00:13:50,704 We can sort of see all of the 362 00:13:50,704 --> 00:13:52,084 the structure in these, 363 00:13:52,544 --> 00:13:54,809 these disks and see what is where. 364 00:13:56,070 --> 00:13:58,070 And I I wanted to ask you about, 365 00:13:59,669 --> 00:14:00,730 you know, the possibility 366 00:14:01,110 --> 00:14:01,929 of detecting 367 00:14:02,629 --> 00:14:03,929 life somewhere 368 00:14:04,389 --> 00:14:06,549 other than Earth. I mean, maybe in in 369 00:14:06,549 --> 00:14:07,610 the solar system 370 00:14:08,044 --> 00:14:08,544 or, 371 00:14:08,924 --> 00:14:09,985 somewhere else. 372 00:14:11,644 --> 00:14:14,784 You, you know, have a a fantastic knowledge 373 00:14:14,924 --> 00:14:16,225 of of 374 00:14:16,684 --> 00:14:17,184 astrochemistry 375 00:14:17,725 --> 00:14:19,904 and and I suppose, you know, the possibilities 376 00:14:20,365 --> 00:14:23,750 for the conditions for life to be present. 377 00:14:24,050 --> 00:14:26,790 Do you have any any views about, 378 00:14:27,809 --> 00:14:30,389 you know, sort of life on other planets, 379 00:14:31,009 --> 00:14:33,889 I suppose to put it bluntly? Or, and 380 00:14:33,889 --> 00:14:36,129 has that changed over your career? I mean, 381 00:14:36,129 --> 00:14:38,309 do you think it's much more possible now 382 00:14:38,834 --> 00:14:41,735 that we we that life does exist elsewhere? 383 00:14:43,235 --> 00:14:44,855 So I think the possibilities 384 00:14:45,314 --> 00:14:47,814 are absolutely there. I mean, if anything, 385 00:14:48,834 --> 00:14:50,754 our and I would say that of the 386 00:14:50,754 --> 00:14:51,735 Ontario community, 387 00:14:52,995 --> 00:14:53,460 has 388 00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:55,480 shown that, 389 00:14:56,580 --> 00:14:57,559 water is 390 00:14:58,500 --> 00:14:59,639 available around 391 00:15:00,259 --> 00:15:01,160 all young 392 00:15:01,540 --> 00:15:02,519 forming stars, 393 00:15:03,460 --> 00:15:05,160 in quite significant amounts. 394 00:15:05,860 --> 00:15:08,019 We know that it is transported to these 395 00:15:08,019 --> 00:15:08,414 disks, 396 00:15:08,975 --> 00:15:10,654 to the at least the comets and the 397 00:15:10,654 --> 00:15:12,574 planet forming zones of these disks. So we 398 00:15:12,574 --> 00:15:14,754 know there's water there. We know there's there's 399 00:15:14,894 --> 00:15:16,595 organic material there. 400 00:15:17,054 --> 00:15:17,554 So, 401 00:15:18,254 --> 00:15:19,954 there are a lot of ingredients 402 00:15:20,495 --> 00:15:21,659 present to make 403 00:15:22,059 --> 00:15:22,799 a habitable 404 00:15:23,419 --> 00:15:24,720 world, so to say. 405 00:15:25,339 --> 00:15:26,000 I should 406 00:15:26,459 --> 00:15:29,279 certainly say that most of the research 407 00:15:29,980 --> 00:15:32,240 has come to the point of the 408 00:15:32,779 --> 00:15:34,079 knowing or charting 409 00:15:34,620 --> 00:15:35,759 the chemical ingredients 410 00:15:36,299 --> 00:15:37,120 of the 411 00:15:37,424 --> 00:15:40,384 outer regions of planet forming discs, so say 412 00:15:40,384 --> 00:15:42,804 beyond to the colder outer part, beyond, 413 00:15:44,065 --> 00:15:44,565 Jupiter. 414 00:15:45,985 --> 00:15:48,465 JBST is now learning us something about the 415 00:15:48,465 --> 00:15:49,524 the inner part. 416 00:15:51,149 --> 00:15:51,649 But, 417 00:15:52,509 --> 00:15:54,129 there's still a lot of questions 418 00:15:54,590 --> 00:15:57,649 as to what is happening exactly in that, 419 00:15:58,269 --> 00:15:59,470 region of, 420 00:15:59,950 --> 00:16:02,190 what would be the equivalent of the orbit 421 00:16:02,190 --> 00:16:02,929 of Earth, 422 00:16:03,324 --> 00:16:04,144 say, Mars, 423 00:16:04,445 --> 00:16:05,904 in our own solar system, 424 00:16:06,445 --> 00:16:08,684 what is happening exactly there. But we definitely 425 00:16:08,684 --> 00:16:11,664 know that the ingredients are widely available. 426 00:16:12,204 --> 00:16:14,524 Now to what extent you can then make 427 00:16:14,524 --> 00:16:15,024 life, 428 00:16:15,404 --> 00:16:18,365 I always like to bounce that question to 429 00:16:18,365 --> 00:16:18,865 my 430 00:16:19,620 --> 00:16:20,120 chemistry 431 00:16:20,580 --> 00:16:21,960 and my biochemistry 432 00:16:22,340 --> 00:16:23,080 and biology 433 00:16:23,540 --> 00:16:26,100 colleagues because I'm certainly not an expert in 434 00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:26,600 that. 435 00:16:27,139 --> 00:16:29,320 Some of them say they're, you know, chemistry 436 00:16:29,379 --> 00:16:30,519 will find its way, 437 00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:33,960 and it will make life in some cases. 438 00:16:35,084 --> 00:16:35,584 But, 439 00:16:36,605 --> 00:16:38,204 it it will be it will be hard 440 00:16:38,204 --> 00:16:40,384 to detect. No doubt about that. 441 00:16:41,324 --> 00:16:43,644 And it may take us some time before 442 00:16:43,644 --> 00:16:46,044 we know the answer to this question. So 443 00:16:46,044 --> 00:16:47,884 in that sense, I'm a little bit more 444 00:16:47,884 --> 00:16:50,230 conservative than some of my colleagues who are 445 00:16:50,230 --> 00:16:52,410 much more optimistic that we will, 446 00:16:53,830 --> 00:16:56,009 find that sort of in the next decade. 447 00:16:56,870 --> 00:17:00,090 I see. And you you mentioned two major 448 00:17:00,470 --> 00:17:03,745 observatories that you've been involved with, the the 449 00:17:03,745 --> 00:17:04,244 ALMA, 450 00:17:05,025 --> 00:17:07,845 radio telescope array and the James Webb 451 00:17:08,384 --> 00:17:09,204 Space Telescope. 452 00:17:10,384 --> 00:17:12,625 And and you've been involved in the design 453 00:17:12,625 --> 00:17:13,365 and operation 454 00:17:13,825 --> 00:17:14,884 of these facilities. 455 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,059 Can you talk a bit about 456 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,500 the the challenges that are involved in 457 00:17:20,799 --> 00:17:21,440 getting the, 458 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,279 astronomy community to agree on the parameters of 459 00:17:25,279 --> 00:17:25,940 a new 460 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:26,819 observatory? 461 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,234 I mean, I've you know, I suppose you 462 00:17:29,234 --> 00:17:31,555 come in you you come at, at it 463 00:17:31,555 --> 00:17:33,255 with your astrochemistry 464 00:17:34,035 --> 00:17:36,055 hat on, but, there's probably 465 00:17:36,434 --> 00:17:39,154 colleagues who are more interested in black holes, 466 00:17:39,154 --> 00:17:42,059 and you've got to agree on on building 467 00:17:42,059 --> 00:17:44,299 an instrument that can do a good job 468 00:17:44,299 --> 00:17:44,619 of, 469 00:17:45,420 --> 00:17:47,660 giving us information about both of those things 470 00:17:47,660 --> 00:17:50,380 and much more. How, I mean, how do 471 00:17:50,380 --> 00:17:50,940 you get 472 00:17:51,740 --> 00:17:53,359 how do you start 473 00:17:53,819 --> 00:17:55,500 with the design of something like, 474 00:17:56,194 --> 00:17:57,815 the James Webb Space Telescope, 475 00:17:58,115 --> 00:17:59,554 and how do you get people to agree 476 00:17:59,554 --> 00:18:02,035 on it? Or maybe in the end, people 477 00:18:02,035 --> 00:18:03,095 just don't agree. 478 00:18:03,554 --> 00:18:05,634 That well, it's a it's a very good 479 00:18:05,634 --> 00:18:07,474 question. Of course, it's one that is the 480 00:18:07,474 --> 00:18:10,409 basis of everything that we do astronomy because, 481 00:18:10,649 --> 00:18:13,210 astronomy is a field that is driven by 482 00:18:13,210 --> 00:18:14,029 new facilities. 483 00:18:14,889 --> 00:18:16,569 I think the first thing to note is 484 00:18:16,569 --> 00:18:18,889 that there is no single telescope that can 485 00:18:18,889 --> 00:18:19,389 satisfy 486 00:18:19,690 --> 00:18:20,190 everybody. 487 00:18:20,490 --> 00:18:22,305 So, you always need 488 00:18:22,865 --> 00:18:26,485 telescopes of different kinds covering different wavelengths regime 489 00:18:26,545 --> 00:18:27,045 covering 490 00:18:27,424 --> 00:18:27,924 difference, 491 00:18:28,384 --> 00:18:28,884 say, 492 00:18:30,865 --> 00:18:31,845 fields of view, 493 00:18:32,545 --> 00:18:34,384 whether you're going for a wide field of 494 00:18:34,384 --> 00:18:36,225 view or whether you're gonna zoom in to 495 00:18:36,225 --> 00:18:37,285 a certain astronomical 496 00:18:37,664 --> 00:18:38,164 object. 497 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:40,220 So so there's 498 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,940 never going to be one that satisfies 499 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,660 all. But then with Zilla given, 500 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,200 range, if I take the the Almad at 501 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,539 the gamma large BDB array as an example, 502 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,140 there were two main science drivers 503 00:18:55,615 --> 00:18:58,494 that the scientists put together. The one was, 504 00:18:59,214 --> 00:19:01,234 very distant galaxies, basically 505 00:19:01,855 --> 00:19:04,194 studying the gas that makes stars 506 00:19:04,815 --> 00:19:05,315 in, 507 00:19:05,934 --> 00:19:08,654 Milky Way type galaxies, but then at at 508 00:19:08,654 --> 00:19:10,900 high ratchets in the distant universe. 509 00:19:13,140 --> 00:19:15,080 That was an important one to basically 510 00:19:15,539 --> 00:19:16,500 charge the, 511 00:19:17,220 --> 00:19:18,519 star formation history, 512 00:19:19,380 --> 00:19:22,259 of the universe in the critical period that 513 00:19:22,259 --> 00:19:24,315 most of the stars are being built. That 514 00:19:24,315 --> 00:19:26,474 was a very strong set of science case 515 00:19:26,474 --> 00:19:29,134 that, was of interest to a large community. 516 00:19:29,595 --> 00:19:31,914 The other one was these, close to home, 517 00:19:31,914 --> 00:19:35,755 these tiny planet forming discs that basically were 518 00:19:35,755 --> 00:19:37,855 so weak and so small, 519 00:19:38,759 --> 00:19:41,799 that previous instruments could not study them. And 520 00:19:41,799 --> 00:19:43,799 we knew that if we ever wanted to 521 00:19:43,799 --> 00:19:45,340 study planet formation 522 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:46,700 and, 523 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,740 how exoplanets are formed, we had to know 524 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,454 we had to dive into these disks where 525 00:19:52,454 --> 00:19:54,075 the action is is happening. 526 00:19:54,855 --> 00:19:57,335 So zooming in on on platforming disk on 527 00:19:57,335 --> 00:19:59,494 solar system scale, say, down to the orbit 528 00:19:59,494 --> 00:20:02,294 of Jupiter in the nearest star forming region 529 00:20:02,294 --> 00:20:03,990 was another science driver. 530 00:20:04,549 --> 00:20:06,789 So as as usual, you know, The US 531 00:20:06,789 --> 00:20:09,589 made its plans. Europe made its plans. Japan 532 00:20:09,589 --> 00:20:10,569 made its plans. 533 00:20:11,109 --> 00:20:13,929 And then we quickly realized to scientists 534 00:20:14,230 --> 00:20:14,730 that, 535 00:20:15,429 --> 00:20:17,829 none of these plans could satisfy these science 536 00:20:17,829 --> 00:20:18,164 goals. 537 00:20:18,725 --> 00:20:20,244 And that the only way we could make 538 00:20:20,244 --> 00:20:22,585 it work was if you put them together 539 00:20:23,045 --> 00:20:26,085 in one single worldwide array. Because the the 540 00:20:26,085 --> 00:20:28,424 good thing about an array is that actually 541 00:20:28,565 --> 00:20:31,205 many of the parameters scale not just with 542 00:20:31,205 --> 00:20:33,640 n, but even with n squared. So, 543 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:35,880 everybody knew that this was going to be 544 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,179 a win win situation. 545 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,480 And that's the first thing. If the scientist 546 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:40,380 agree, then, 547 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,400 and it was also shown that, you know, 548 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,099 you could even make black people 549 00:20:45,559 --> 00:20:46,779 happy to some degree. 550 00:20:47,975 --> 00:20:50,555 And at other size of the system, 551 00:20:50,934 --> 00:20:53,174 even people studying the sun. So then we 552 00:20:53,174 --> 00:20:54,795 had a big movement, 553 00:20:55,335 --> 00:20:57,275 that said ALMA has to be built. 554 00:20:58,295 --> 00:21:00,295 Well, having said that, then, of course, the 555 00:21:00,295 --> 00:21:01,835 technical and fiscal realities, 556 00:21:02,819 --> 00:21:04,339 come to play. And, 557 00:21:04,740 --> 00:21:07,220 that is where scientists then also have a 558 00:21:07,220 --> 00:21:08,599 a big role in in 559 00:21:08,980 --> 00:21:10,900 ensuring that once those 560 00:21:11,460 --> 00:21:13,880 especially the fiscal realities come in, 561 00:21:15,059 --> 00:21:16,105 that still, 562 00:21:16,805 --> 00:21:19,605 in the end, an array is built that, 563 00:21:20,164 --> 00:21:22,505 can still do those science cases. 564 00:21:23,045 --> 00:21:24,345 Basically preserving, 565 00:21:25,365 --> 00:21:28,259 the science case again, making sure not that 566 00:21:28,259 --> 00:21:31,220 not too much rescoping is going on. But 567 00:21:31,220 --> 00:21:33,380 the science cases, they said, you know, the 568 00:21:33,380 --> 00:21:35,299 the size of the array. We knew we 569 00:21:35,299 --> 00:21:37,779 had to have telescopes that had to be 570 00:21:37,779 --> 00:21:39,720 separated by up to 15 kilometers. 571 00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:42,884 We knew that we had to have at 572 00:21:42,884 --> 00:21:45,305 least 50 telescopes for the sensitivity. 573 00:21:45,765 --> 00:21:46,664 We knew that's, 574 00:21:47,125 --> 00:21:49,065 we had to have a frequency range, 575 00:21:50,085 --> 00:21:53,045 from, say, a 100 gigahertz to 800 gigahertz, 576 00:21:53,045 --> 00:21:54,025 so so covering, 577 00:21:54,990 --> 00:21:57,150 a range of frequencies. So that was all 578 00:21:57,150 --> 00:21:59,549 set by the by the science and especially 579 00:21:59,549 --> 00:22:01,089 by the few science drivers. 580 00:22:02,269 --> 00:22:03,950 I see. And, you know, in the case 581 00:22:03,950 --> 00:22:05,570 of the of a space telescope, 582 00:22:07,144 --> 00:22:09,304 I mean, I I find it amazing that 583 00:22:09,304 --> 00:22:11,784 you can, you know, put something like that 584 00:22:11,784 --> 00:22:14,664 up into space, and you can open things 585 00:22:14,664 --> 00:22:17,224 up, and and and it actually works. Do 586 00:22:17,464 --> 00:22:17,964 is 587 00:22:18,984 --> 00:22:22,230 were you very nervous when, for example, the 588 00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:25,190 James Webb Space Telescope was launched? And I'm 589 00:22:25,190 --> 00:22:27,529 sure there was a few moments there 590 00:22:28,070 --> 00:22:31,130 where a lot of astronomers were very anxious 591 00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:32,009 or worried. 592 00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:34,150 I mean, what was that feeling like? It 593 00:22:34,150 --> 00:22:35,049 must have been 594 00:22:35,365 --> 00:22:36,105 a very 595 00:22:37,444 --> 00:22:39,224 incredible moment, I would imagine. 596 00:22:39,605 --> 00:22:40,424 Yeah. Absolutely. 597 00:22:41,365 --> 00:22:44,005 So, I got involved in, Webb, in the 598 00:22:44,005 --> 00:22:45,144 late nineteen nineties, 599 00:22:46,804 --> 00:22:49,299 as part of the science advisory committees, first 600 00:22:49,299 --> 00:22:50,119 of the European 601 00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:53,000 Space Agency and then of the joint NASA, 602 00:22:53,140 --> 00:22:55,000 ESA, US European, 603 00:22:56,099 --> 00:22:58,200 science advisory committee. And, 604 00:22:59,059 --> 00:22:59,880 at that time, 605 00:23:01,015 --> 00:23:03,035 the mid infrared instrument, MIRI, 606 00:23:04,535 --> 00:23:07,035 was not yet secured on the telescope. 607 00:23:07,734 --> 00:23:10,554 Everybody knew, again, based on these science cases, 608 00:23:10,615 --> 00:23:12,775 one had to have the near infrared camera 609 00:23:12,775 --> 00:23:14,315 and a near infrared spectrometer, 610 00:23:14,789 --> 00:23:17,430 but the mid infrared was considered still an 611 00:23:17,430 --> 00:23:20,070 add on at that time. Now we had 612 00:23:20,070 --> 00:23:23,210 just come out of a, very interesting, 613 00:23:24,070 --> 00:23:27,350 innovative mission, the infrared space observatory on the 614 00:23:27,350 --> 00:23:30,125 European side, and knew the power of the 615 00:23:30,125 --> 00:23:30,865 mid infrared. 616 00:23:31,325 --> 00:23:33,244 Only for the brightest sources, but we could 617 00:23:33,244 --> 00:23:34,545 see sort of the potential 618 00:23:35,085 --> 00:23:36,144 of the mid infrared. 619 00:23:36,765 --> 00:23:39,005 And so that was then the role in 620 00:23:39,005 --> 00:23:41,484 sort of the the early two thousands to, 621 00:23:42,204 --> 00:23:43,585 make the case together, 622 00:23:44,490 --> 00:23:46,570 a group of US and small group of 623 00:23:46,570 --> 00:23:47,470 US and Europe, 624 00:23:48,009 --> 00:23:50,089 and scientists that there had to be a 625 00:23:50,089 --> 00:23:51,950 mid infrared instrument on it. 626 00:23:52,330 --> 00:23:53,789 So by 02/2002, 627 00:23:54,250 --> 00:23:57,789 the mid infrared instrument was secured on, JBST, 628 00:23:57,930 --> 00:24:00,044 but then we still had to to build 629 00:24:00,044 --> 00:24:00,544 it. 630 00:24:00,924 --> 00:24:03,504 And NASA and ESA decided that this had 631 00:24:03,644 --> 00:24:05,744 was going to be a collaboration between, 632 00:24:06,524 --> 00:24:08,625 US and Europe in a 5050, 633 00:24:09,244 --> 00:24:09,744 partnership, 634 00:24:10,524 --> 00:24:12,684 which had turned out to be, actually very 635 00:24:12,684 --> 00:24:15,460 well, worked very well. And on the European 636 00:24:15,460 --> 00:24:18,259 side, we had a as is often done 637 00:24:18,259 --> 00:24:21,160 in European Space Astronomy, a consortium 638 00:24:22,019 --> 00:24:22,759 of countries 639 00:24:23,220 --> 00:24:25,559 and institutes that together then built, 640 00:24:26,259 --> 00:24:29,154 the instruments, each institute delivering a part of 641 00:24:29,154 --> 00:24:30,054 the the hardware. 642 00:24:30,514 --> 00:24:31,734 And so in The Netherlands, 643 00:24:32,274 --> 00:24:35,474 we were responsible for building part of the 644 00:24:35,474 --> 00:24:35,974 spectrometer 645 00:24:36,754 --> 00:24:37,575 main optics. 646 00:24:38,434 --> 00:24:40,994 And, that was actually done between 2003 647 00:24:40,994 --> 00:24:42,029 and 02/2008. 648 00:24:42,109 --> 00:24:43,970 So we delivered our hardware 649 00:24:44,349 --> 00:24:45,730 in 02/2008, 650 00:24:45,950 --> 00:24:47,330 and then it was integrated 651 00:24:47,789 --> 00:24:48,690 in The UK. 652 00:24:50,269 --> 00:24:52,990 The imager and the spectrometer came together. It 653 00:24:52,990 --> 00:24:55,789 was tested, calibrated. And then in 02/2012, it 654 00:24:55,789 --> 00:24:58,595 was shipped to to NASA to to Goddard. 655 00:24:59,295 --> 00:25:01,475 Then it was finally launched in 2021. So 656 00:25:02,575 --> 00:25:04,994 you can see that having delivered our hardware 657 00:25:05,055 --> 00:25:06,275 in 02/2008, 658 00:25:07,455 --> 00:25:09,634 this was a very long ride, and, 659 00:25:10,414 --> 00:25:11,315 we were indeed 660 00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:12,599 extremely nervous, 661 00:25:13,380 --> 00:25:14,119 in order, 662 00:25:14,659 --> 00:25:16,980 you know, to to to see the launch 663 00:25:16,980 --> 00:25:19,140 go well. But then also we knew all 664 00:25:19,140 --> 00:25:21,159 of the steps that had to be done, 665 00:25:22,339 --> 00:25:23,720 in in orbits. 666 00:25:24,174 --> 00:25:25,535 Well, first, it had to get to its 667 00:25:25,535 --> 00:25:28,035 orbits and then the the whole unfolding 668 00:25:28,335 --> 00:25:29,055 of the, 669 00:25:30,335 --> 00:25:30,994 the sunshades 670 00:25:31,295 --> 00:25:33,134 and, of course, the phasing up of the 671 00:25:33,134 --> 00:25:34,755 telescope. But then also, 672 00:25:35,375 --> 00:25:36,767 in April 673 00:25:36,767 --> 00:25:37,840 2022, 674 00:25:37,839 --> 00:25:40,480 turning on MIRI, turning on the cooler because 675 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,039 MIRI had to be cool cooler than the 676 00:25:43,039 --> 00:25:43,940 other instruments. 677 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,319 And to me, that was one of the 678 00:25:46,319 --> 00:25:48,640 most nerve wracking moments. I thought, oh, we 679 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:49,460 have a telescope. 680 00:25:50,559 --> 00:25:53,164 It has survived the launch, but, you know, 681 00:25:53,164 --> 00:25:54,304 will it be cooled? 682 00:25:55,404 --> 00:25:57,585 And, so I was watching nervously 683 00:25:58,125 --> 00:25:58,944 the temperature, 684 00:26:00,045 --> 00:26:01,105 sensor basically 685 00:26:01,404 --> 00:26:03,724 every every day, you know, going down a 686 00:26:03,724 --> 00:26:04,464 little bit, 687 00:26:05,085 --> 00:26:08,140 until it finally reached its operating temperature. So 688 00:26:08,140 --> 00:26:08,960 so that was 689 00:26:09,339 --> 00:26:09,920 a a particularly, 690 00:26:11,660 --> 00:26:13,920 I would say, interesting stressful moment. 691 00:26:14,940 --> 00:26:16,880 Yeah. Especially after all that 692 00:26:17,259 --> 00:26:18,400 time and effort. 693 00:26:18,940 --> 00:26:21,519 Right. That yeah. Well well well, congratulations 694 00:26:23,194 --> 00:26:25,535 that that that you've got it to work. 695 00:26:26,154 --> 00:26:28,335 I mean, that must have been very satisfying, 696 00:26:28,474 --> 00:26:28,974 but, 697 00:26:29,434 --> 00:26:30,335 you know, I think 698 00:26:31,035 --> 00:26:33,674 sort of fascinated by your work in general 699 00:26:33,674 --> 00:26:35,994 because you're you're looking at things that are 700 00:26:35,994 --> 00:26:37,214 light years away. 701 00:26:37,769 --> 00:26:39,609 And then you're sort of sitting here on 702 00:26:39,609 --> 00:26:41,390 Earth and you're you're doing calculations 703 00:26:41,690 --> 00:26:44,170 and may maybe you're doing some experiments as 704 00:26:44,170 --> 00:26:44,670 well. 705 00:26:45,049 --> 00:26:46,269 And you're 706 00:26:46,650 --> 00:26:49,230 you're making connections between something that's 707 00:26:49,529 --> 00:26:51,769 so distant and, you know, happened so long 708 00:26:51,769 --> 00:26:52,269 ago, 709 00:26:52,705 --> 00:26:53,205 let's 710 00:26:53,585 --> 00:26:55,825 say, with, you know, the the science of 711 00:26:55,825 --> 00:26:56,325 today. 712 00:26:57,184 --> 00:26:58,945 And, you know, I think that, you know, 713 00:26:58,945 --> 00:27:00,705 to to me, that sounds like it must 714 00:27:00,705 --> 00:27:02,404 be very satisfying. So 715 00:27:02,785 --> 00:27:04,625 could you share with us maybe some of 716 00:27:04,625 --> 00:27:05,125 the 717 00:27:05,750 --> 00:27:08,549 the the the highlights of of of your 718 00:27:08,549 --> 00:27:10,230 career? You know, some of the things that 719 00:27:10,230 --> 00:27:11,990 that you were really excited about. 720 00:27:14,789 --> 00:27:17,049 So I I would say that's you know, 721 00:27:17,269 --> 00:27:18,650 every time that 722 00:27:19,125 --> 00:27:20,744 I get a new spectrum 723 00:27:21,045 --> 00:27:21,545 delivered 724 00:27:22,164 --> 00:27:24,005 no. It used to be that you go 725 00:27:24,005 --> 00:27:26,404 to the telescope. These days, you know, you 726 00:27:26,404 --> 00:27:28,805 get your data delivered in your computer. But 727 00:27:28,805 --> 00:27:30,345 still, when you open it 728 00:27:30,724 --> 00:27:33,204 and you see the data, you see these 729 00:27:33,204 --> 00:27:34,345 beautiful spectra, 730 00:27:34,730 --> 00:27:35,630 and you realize 731 00:27:35,930 --> 00:27:38,890 that those photons made it all the way 732 00:27:38,890 --> 00:27:39,710 to my computer, 733 00:27:40,250 --> 00:27:42,589 to the telescope first, to the computer, 734 00:27:43,210 --> 00:27:46,410 after traveling through space, through thousands of years, 735 00:27:46,410 --> 00:27:48,650 or in the case of distant galaxies, billions 736 00:27:48,650 --> 00:27:51,035 of years. I I still get an enormous 737 00:27:51,035 --> 00:27:53,194 kick out of that. It's, you know, every 738 00:27:53,194 --> 00:27:55,454 time I look forward to opening a new 739 00:27:55,835 --> 00:27:56,815 Christmas present. 740 00:27:57,595 --> 00:27:59,595 And some of those Christmas presents have been 741 00:27:59,595 --> 00:28:00,335 really fantastic. 742 00:28:01,515 --> 00:28:04,394 As we mentioned already earlier, water has been 743 00:28:04,394 --> 00:28:05,375 one of the 744 00:28:06,009 --> 00:28:07,950 focus areas of my research, 745 00:28:09,210 --> 00:28:11,130 all the way from the star forming clouds 746 00:28:11,130 --> 00:28:13,150 to these, planet forming discs, 747 00:28:13,690 --> 00:28:14,429 not just 748 00:28:14,730 --> 00:28:17,789 h two sixteen oxygen, but also its isotopologues, 749 00:28:18,490 --> 00:28:20,349 especially the deuterated water. 750 00:28:21,734 --> 00:28:23,755 And together, that tells you 751 00:28:24,055 --> 00:28:26,075 not just how much water there is, 752 00:28:27,414 --> 00:28:30,134 you're forming stars in discs, how it is 753 00:28:30,134 --> 00:28:30,634 transported 754 00:28:31,095 --> 00:28:33,575 nearly an altered to the comet forming zones 755 00:28:33,575 --> 00:28:34,079 of discs. 756 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:36,259 But sometimes, 757 00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:39,039 you can also learn something from the absence 758 00:28:39,039 --> 00:28:39,859 of a signal. 759 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,480 You can learn that it's, you know, the 760 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,380 absence of a signal can mean that water 761 00:28:45,519 --> 00:28:48,659 becomes invisible because it's locked up in, 762 00:28:49,065 --> 00:28:51,384 say, icy pebbles that are the building blocks 763 00:28:51,384 --> 00:28:52,024 of planets, 764 00:28:52,585 --> 00:28:54,585 making the water molecules invisible. 765 00:28:56,105 --> 00:28:58,264 So some of my students say that one 766 00:28:58,264 --> 00:29:00,424 of my most famous sayings is, 767 00:29:00,825 --> 00:29:02,044 all of the information, 768 00:29:02,779 --> 00:29:04,159 all of the new information 769 00:29:04,700 --> 00:29:06,480 is actually in the weak lines, 770 00:29:07,019 --> 00:29:08,399 not in the strong lines. 771 00:29:09,339 --> 00:29:11,599 So this is something that I've I've learned. 772 00:29:12,779 --> 00:29:14,480 Other surprise has been, 773 00:29:15,179 --> 00:29:16,159 now with JWST, 774 00:29:16,460 --> 00:29:17,519 just very recently. 775 00:29:17,875 --> 00:29:20,434 And we were studying these planet formed disc 776 00:29:20,434 --> 00:29:21,335 in our parts. 777 00:29:22,194 --> 00:29:23,875 Some of them turn out to be very 778 00:29:23,875 --> 00:29:25,095 rich in water lines, 779 00:29:25,634 --> 00:29:26,775 warm water lines. 780 00:29:27,634 --> 00:29:29,335 Some of them in c o two. 781 00:29:29,809 --> 00:29:31,970 We don't understand yet why. Some of them 782 00:29:31,970 --> 00:29:33,829 like c o two and the others water. 783 00:29:34,289 --> 00:29:36,849 But then we found that around very low 784 00:29:36,849 --> 00:29:38,470 mass stars, so say, 785 00:29:38,769 --> 00:29:41,329 stars that are only 20% of the mass 786 00:29:41,329 --> 00:29:42,230 of our sun, 787 00:29:42,849 --> 00:29:44,710 there's actually a very rich, 788 00:29:45,355 --> 00:29:45,855 hydrocarbonate 789 00:29:46,234 --> 00:29:49,115 chemistry going on with, you know, booming in 790 00:29:49,115 --> 00:29:49,615 satellite 791 00:29:49,994 --> 00:29:51,294 lines. Even benzene 792 00:29:51,914 --> 00:29:52,974 detected there, 793 00:29:54,075 --> 00:29:56,015 you know, on scales of, 794 00:29:56,634 --> 00:29:58,714 you know, where the orbit of the Earth 795 00:29:58,714 --> 00:29:59,819 or Venus is. 796 00:30:01,259 --> 00:30:03,339 And that was that is a puzzle that 797 00:30:03,339 --> 00:30:04,960 first of all, you know, one of these 798 00:30:05,099 --> 00:30:08,059 moments, but then also that's, you know, what 799 00:30:08,059 --> 00:30:11,440 can be causing that, that difference. So so 800 00:30:11,579 --> 00:30:13,259 when you have a new instrument and you 801 00:30:13,259 --> 00:30:15,884 have picked such a jump in sensitivity, you're 802 00:30:15,884 --> 00:30:18,204 always gonna find something new. And you don't 803 00:30:18,204 --> 00:30:20,044 know yet what, but you're gonna find something 804 00:30:20,044 --> 00:30:20,544 new. 805 00:30:21,325 --> 00:30:23,404 And, Uwina, finally, I wanted to ask you 806 00:30:23,404 --> 00:30:24,704 about the future. 807 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:26,779 Are there any, 808 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:28,460 sort of new observatories 809 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:29,580 or maybe, 810 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,299 telescopes that have just come online 811 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,880 that you're really excited about? Or or maybe 812 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,340 it's a new supercomputer 813 00:30:37,799 --> 00:30:38,860 where you can do 814 00:30:39,525 --> 00:30:42,325 calculations that you could never do before about 815 00:30:42,325 --> 00:30:44,164 chemistry. Or who who knows? Maybe even a 816 00:30:44,164 --> 00:30:45,065 quantum computer 817 00:30:45,525 --> 00:30:48,085 that could allow you to, to calculate the 818 00:30:48,085 --> 00:30:51,144 properties of of molecules in space. What 819 00:30:51,589 --> 00:30:53,509 what are you looking forward to, you know, 820 00:30:53,509 --> 00:30:55,190 let's say in the next ten years or 821 00:30:55,190 --> 00:30:56,650 so in astrochemistry? 822 00:30:57,509 --> 00:30:59,670 Right. Right. Well, I mean, the quantum computer 823 00:30:59,670 --> 00:31:00,570 is an interesting, 824 00:31:01,190 --> 00:31:03,829 option in the sense of quantum chemistry because 825 00:31:03,829 --> 00:31:06,285 that's really one of the main applications of 826 00:31:06,285 --> 00:31:07,265 quantum computers. 827 00:31:07,644 --> 00:31:09,025 And I'm happy to see 828 00:31:09,404 --> 00:31:11,884 several of my younger colleagues going that way, 829 00:31:12,125 --> 00:31:14,224 and I look forward to seeing that results. 830 00:31:15,164 --> 00:31:16,444 I think there are two, 831 00:31:17,164 --> 00:31:19,404 two aspects that I'm looking forward to very 832 00:31:19,404 --> 00:31:19,680 much. 833 00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:22,420 One is actually 834 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:23,200 that's, 835 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,759 part of our gap of our knowledge comes 836 00:31:25,759 --> 00:31:28,740 from having no observed tree at the moment 837 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:29,619 that covers 838 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:30,900 sort of the 839 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,600 far infrared part of the spectrum. So where 840 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,244 JWST stops and where ALMA starts, 841 00:31:36,785 --> 00:31:38,465 between 3,300 842 00:31:38,465 --> 00:31:38,965 microns. 843 00:31:39,664 --> 00:31:41,924 We had the the ESA led mission, 844 00:31:42,865 --> 00:31:43,365 Herschel, 845 00:31:44,144 --> 00:31:46,884 and that was 2009 to 02/2013. 846 00:31:47,970 --> 00:31:50,950 But technology has now advanced so much that 847 00:31:51,009 --> 00:31:53,329 if you cool such a telescope, you get 848 00:31:53,329 --> 00:31:56,470 an orders of magnitude gain its sensitivity. So 849 00:31:56,529 --> 00:31:59,009 so this is one field that is really 850 00:31:59,009 --> 00:31:59,910 ripe for 851 00:32:00,674 --> 00:32:02,215 a new mission. And then, 852 00:32:03,795 --> 00:32:06,674 the NASA is through its pro plan now 853 00:32:06,674 --> 00:32:07,174 proposing, 854 00:32:07,795 --> 00:32:11,075 studying one mission, the mission. And that will 855 00:32:11,075 --> 00:32:14,195 be great, especially also for studying these, planet 856 00:32:14,195 --> 00:32:15,095 forming discs. 857 00:32:15,980 --> 00:32:17,019 The other one is, 858 00:32:17,420 --> 00:32:20,220 already being built, and that's the Extremely Large 859 00:32:20,220 --> 00:32:20,720 Telescope, 860 00:32:22,140 --> 00:32:24,860 of the European Southern Observatory. I don't know 861 00:32:24,860 --> 00:32:27,019 whether you follow the webcam, but, 862 00:32:27,420 --> 00:32:29,234 the building is there, and, 863 00:32:29,714 --> 00:32:32,755 it's making enormous progress. That is a 39 864 00:32:32,755 --> 00:32:33,255 meter, 865 00:32:34,194 --> 00:32:34,694 optical 866 00:32:34,994 --> 00:32:35,894 near infrared, 867 00:32:37,154 --> 00:32:37,894 mid infrared 868 00:32:38,515 --> 00:32:39,714 telescope on the ground. 869 00:32:40,515 --> 00:32:42,694 So it will have fantastic sensitivity 870 00:32:43,075 --> 00:32:46,109 and spatial resolution even though hindered 871 00:32:46,650 --> 00:32:47,950 by the Earth's atmosphere, 872 00:32:48,809 --> 00:32:51,230 in some parts of its wave flex coverage. 873 00:32:52,250 --> 00:32:54,809 But there we can really now start to 874 00:32:54,809 --> 00:32:56,029 spatially resolve, 875 00:32:56,809 --> 00:32:58,190 you know, some of these, 876 00:32:59,515 --> 00:33:01,835 you know, systems that we are now studying 877 00:33:01,835 --> 00:33:04,315 with Webb. But Webb is fantastic, but it's 878 00:33:04,315 --> 00:33:07,035 only only a six meter telescope with 39 879 00:33:07,035 --> 00:33:07,535 meter 880 00:33:07,914 --> 00:33:11,115 diameter. You can really start to resolve sort 881 00:33:11,115 --> 00:33:12,894 of these planet forming, 882 00:33:13,434 --> 00:33:13,934 regions, 883 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:15,700 and, 884 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,019 and map sort of the molecules, 885 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,720 and the chemistry in much more detail in 886 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:21,460 that critical 887 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:22,420 inner, 888 00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:25,539 region of this where planets are forming. 889 00:33:27,034 --> 00:33:29,674 Well, that's fantastic. It sounds like, lots of 890 00:33:29,674 --> 00:33:30,174 exciting, 891 00:33:31,355 --> 00:33:33,515 things to do in astrochemistry in the future. 892 00:33:33,515 --> 00:33:35,134 And I'm guessing that you would 893 00:33:35,595 --> 00:33:36,095 encourage 894 00:33:36,474 --> 00:33:38,714 any listeners who are looking for a career 895 00:33:38,714 --> 00:33:39,214 in 896 00:33:39,595 --> 00:33:41,214 that straddles what physics, 897 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,339 astronomy, astrophysics, chemistry, maybe a bit of biology? 898 00:33:45,799 --> 00:33:47,880 It sounds like something really interesting to get 899 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:48,380 into. 900 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,799 Yeah. Exactly. Even some geology is in there 901 00:33:51,799 --> 00:33:54,140 now these days. Yeah. No. I can certainly, 902 00:33:54,759 --> 00:33:56,295 it's a very lively community 903 00:34:00,055 --> 00:34:02,055 Great. Well, thanks so much, Awina, for joining 904 00:34:02,055 --> 00:34:04,055 me today on the podcast, and, 905 00:34:04,695 --> 00:34:06,715 the best of luck with your future research. 906 00:34:07,414 --> 00:34:09,355 Thank you very much for inviting me. 907 00:34:17,390 --> 00:34:19,230 I'm afraid that's all the time we have 908 00:34:19,230 --> 00:34:22,110 for this week's podcast. Thanks to Uwina Van 909 00:34:22,110 --> 00:34:24,289 Dishoek for a fascinating conversation 910 00:34:24,885 --> 00:34:27,304 and to our producer, Fred Ailes. 911 00:34:27,765 --> 00:34:30,164 I would like to extend a special thank 912 00:34:30,164 --> 00:34:33,204 you to the Kavli prize for sponsoring this 913 00:34:33,204 --> 00:34:33,704 episode. 914 00:34:34,324 --> 00:34:38,164 The Kavli prize honors scientists for basic research 915 00:34:38,164 --> 00:34:38,664 breakthroughs 916 00:34:39,179 --> 00:34:39,920 in astrophysics, 917 00:34:40,619 --> 00:34:41,119 nanoscience, 918 00:34:41,420 --> 00:34:42,159 and neuroscience, 919 00:34:43,179 --> 00:34:46,400 transforming our understanding of the big, the small, 920 00:34:46,460 --> 00:34:47,440 and the complex. 921 00:34:48,139 --> 00:34:48,880 The biennial 922 00:34:49,179 --> 00:34:51,760 prize awards $1,000,000 923 00:34:51,819 --> 00:34:54,000 in each of these three fields. 924 00:34:54,635 --> 00:34:57,434 You can play a crucial role in helping 925 00:34:57,434 --> 00:34:59,214 to recognize the trailblazers 926 00:34:59,675 --> 00:35:02,795 in your field by nominating them for the 927 00:35:02,795 --> 00:35:03,855 Kavli Prize 928 00:35:04,155 --> 00:35:06,574 during the global call for nominations, 929 00:35:07,369 --> 00:35:10,579 which is open between July 1 and October 930 00:35:10,579 --> 00:35:12,269 1. Please visit 931 00:35:12,570 --> 00:35:14,750 kavliprize.org 932 00:35:14,969 --> 00:35:16,110 for more information. 933 00:35:16,730 --> 00:35:19,610 The Physics World weekly podcast will be back 934 00:35:19,610 --> 00:35:20,110 again 935 00:35:20,445 --> 00:35:21,184 next week. 936 00:35:21,724 --> 00:35:22,224 Bye.