1 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,139 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly 2 00:00:11,199 --> 00:00:13,139 podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston. 3 00:00:13,544 --> 00:00:16,664 In this episode, I'm in conversation with Travis 4 00:00:16,664 --> 00:00:20,184 Humble, who is director of the Quantum Science 5 00:00:20,184 --> 00:00:20,684 Center 6 00:00:20,984 --> 00:00:23,324 at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. 7 00:00:31,349 --> 00:00:33,850 This podcast is brought to you by American 8 00:00:33,989 --> 00:00:34,489 Elements, 9 00:00:34,869 --> 00:00:36,809 the world's leading manufacturer 10 00:00:37,189 --> 00:00:38,009 of engineered 11 00:00:38,390 --> 00:00:39,850 and advanced materials. 12 00:00:40,594 --> 00:00:43,575 With a catalog of over 35,000 13 00:00:43,875 --> 00:00:47,975 products available in both industrial bulk and laboratory 14 00:00:48,354 --> 00:00:48,854 quantities, 15 00:00:49,554 --> 00:00:51,574 American Elements is the largest 16 00:00:51,875 --> 00:00:53,414 supplier of its kind. 17 00:00:54,109 --> 00:00:56,829 For more than twenty five years, its research 18 00:00:56,829 --> 00:00:58,370 and development programs 19 00:00:58,750 --> 00:01:02,190 have been a vital resource for innovation across 20 00:01:02,190 --> 00:01:02,690 corporate, 21 00:01:03,070 --> 00:01:05,170 government, and academic sectors. 22 00:01:05,974 --> 00:01:08,795 The company's ability to scale laboratory 23 00:01:09,174 --> 00:01:09,674 breakthroughs 24 00:01:10,134 --> 00:01:11,674 to industrial production 25 00:01:12,054 --> 00:01:15,034 has contributed to many of the most significant 26 00:01:15,575 --> 00:01:16,075 technological 27 00:01:16,774 --> 00:01:17,274 advancements 28 00:01:17,734 --> 00:01:19,194 since 1990, 29 00:01:19,734 --> 00:01:21,594 including LED lighting, 30 00:01:22,069 --> 00:01:22,569 smartphones, 31 00:01:22,950 --> 00:01:24,250 and electric vehicles. 32 00:01:24,870 --> 00:01:26,489 To learn more, visit 33 00:01:26,870 --> 00:01:31,609 www.americanelements.com. 34 00:01:31,989 --> 00:01:33,209 American Elements. 35 00:01:33,670 --> 00:01:34,810 Now invent. 36 00:01:42,734 --> 00:01:45,075 Located in The US state of Tennessee, 37 00:01:45,614 --> 00:01:48,334 Oak Ridge National Lab is run by the 38 00:01:48,334 --> 00:01:50,114 US Department of Energy, 39 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:51,380 the DOE. 40 00:01:52,319 --> 00:01:56,000 The Quantum Science Center links Oak Ridge with 41 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,099 other US National Labs, 42 00:01:58,560 --> 00:01:59,060 universities, 43 00:01:59,439 --> 00:02:00,260 and companies. 44 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:01,939 In this podcast, 45 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,325 Travis Humble explains how these collaborations 46 00:02:06,024 --> 00:02:09,164 ensure that Oak Ridge's powerful facilities 47 00:02:09,465 --> 00:02:10,284 and instruments 48 00:02:10,745 --> 00:02:13,805 are used to create new quantum technologies. 49 00:02:14,584 --> 00:02:17,324 He also explains how the lab's expertise 50 00:02:17,705 --> 00:02:18,444 in quantum 51 00:02:18,870 --> 00:02:20,330 and conventional computing 52 00:02:20,870 --> 00:02:21,689 is benefiting 53 00:02:22,069 --> 00:02:22,889 the academic 54 00:02:23,270 --> 00:02:24,250 and industrial 55 00:02:24,629 --> 00:02:25,129 communities. 56 00:02:33,764 --> 00:02:35,784 Hi, Travis. Welcome to the podcast. 57 00:02:37,044 --> 00:02:38,905 Hi, Hamish. Thanks for having me. 58 00:02:40,084 --> 00:02:40,905 So, Travis, 59 00:02:41,284 --> 00:02:44,324 Oak Ridge is home to several facilities for 60 00:02:44,324 --> 00:02:44,824 material 61 00:02:45,125 --> 00:02:45,625 characterization, 62 00:02:46,620 --> 00:02:48,960 including the spallation neutron source. 63 00:02:50,219 --> 00:02:53,340 How is, Oak Ridge National Lab using these 64 00:02:53,340 --> 00:02:53,840 facilities 65 00:02:54,300 --> 00:02:55,919 to develop new materials 66 00:02:56,300 --> 00:02:57,520 for quantum technologies? 67 00:02:58,604 --> 00:03:02,305 Oak Ridge National Laboratory has many unique facilities, 68 00:03:02,604 --> 00:03:05,164 including the spallation neutron source, which is actually 69 00:03:05,164 --> 00:03:07,424 one of the Department of Energy's user facilities. 70 00:03:08,125 --> 00:03:10,444 This is one of the brightest sources of 71 00:03:10,444 --> 00:03:12,759 neutrons in the world and, of course, an 72 00:03:12,759 --> 00:03:15,419 incredibly powerful capability for characterizing 73 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:16,780 novel materials. 74 00:03:17,719 --> 00:03:18,219 Within 75 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,099 Oak Ridge and part of our quantum, 76 00:03:21,719 --> 00:03:24,840 science and technology efforts, we're actually looking at 77 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,259 some remarkable examples of materials 78 00:03:27,985 --> 00:03:30,165 that can have what we call topological 79 00:03:30,465 --> 00:03:32,325 order or entanglement in them. 80 00:03:32,865 --> 00:03:35,685 These materials are electronic or magnetic. 81 00:03:36,224 --> 00:03:38,724 And what makes them so interesting is that 82 00:03:39,025 --> 00:03:40,165 under the right conditions, 83 00:03:40,599 --> 00:03:43,260 they can actually have these unique phases 84 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,439 where the electrons or the spins that are 85 00:03:46,439 --> 00:03:46,939 involved 86 00:03:47,319 --> 00:03:49,879 can actually be entangled in a quantum mechanical 87 00:03:49,879 --> 00:03:50,379 way. 88 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,080 And by using the spallation neutron source and 89 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:54,840 some of the neutron beams that we have 90 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,444 there, we can actually probe these materials, 91 00:03:57,985 --> 00:04:00,645 recover the neutrons that scatter off of them, 92 00:04:00,784 --> 00:04:02,085 and from those signals, 93 00:04:02,625 --> 00:04:04,564 infer whether or not the materials 94 00:04:04,865 --> 00:04:05,685 are entangled. 95 00:04:06,465 --> 00:04:08,865 So this is a remarkable capability. It is 96 00:04:08,865 --> 00:04:10,860 something unique about Oak Ridge and 97 00:04:12,460 --> 00:04:14,379 Department of Energy's user facilities that allow us 98 00:04:14,379 --> 00:04:17,740 to explore an entirely new regime of of 99 00:04:17,740 --> 00:04:21,100 of materials, these types of, strongly correlated quantum 100 00:04:21,100 --> 00:04:23,339 materials that we think to be very useful 101 00:04:23,339 --> 00:04:25,279 for developing new quantum technologies. 102 00:04:27,185 --> 00:04:30,245 I see. And I suppose the spallation neutron 103 00:04:30,305 --> 00:04:32,004 sort that source, that's your, 104 00:04:32,544 --> 00:04:34,245 as well I suppose big ticket 105 00:04:34,625 --> 00:04:36,865 facility or one of the sort of big 106 00:04:36,865 --> 00:04:37,764 ticket facilities 107 00:04:38,144 --> 00:04:39,664 that you have at Oak Ridge. But you 108 00:04:39,664 --> 00:04:40,884 you must have other 109 00:04:41,350 --> 00:04:41,850 materials, 110 00:04:42,629 --> 00:04:43,129 characterization 111 00:04:43,830 --> 00:04:47,430 capabilities that you use along with the, with 112 00:04:47,430 --> 00:04:49,110 the neutron source. Can you can you talk 113 00:04:49,110 --> 00:04:50,870 a bit about those and how they might 114 00:04:50,870 --> 00:04:51,529 be used 115 00:04:51,910 --> 00:04:52,310 in, 116 00:04:52,870 --> 00:04:54,009 materials characterization 117 00:04:54,389 --> 00:04:55,850 for quantum technologies? 118 00:04:58,365 --> 00:05:02,044 The SNS or Spallies Neutron Source is certainly 119 00:05:02,044 --> 00:05:04,365 one of our biggest and boldest, 120 00:05:04,685 --> 00:05:07,324 instruments that we have for characterizing these these 121 00:05:07,324 --> 00:05:08,305 types of systems, 122 00:05:08,685 --> 00:05:10,284 but in no way is it the only 123 00:05:10,284 --> 00:05:10,769 one. 124 00:05:11,089 --> 00:05:13,089 We are also home to the Center for 125 00:05:13,089 --> 00:05:15,729 Nanophase Material Science. This is one of the 126 00:05:15,729 --> 00:05:16,789 Department of Energy's 127 00:05:17,169 --> 00:05:18,789 Nanoscience Research Centers. 128 00:05:19,089 --> 00:05:20,629 It is a remarkable facility 129 00:05:21,089 --> 00:05:21,909 co located, 130 00:05:22,209 --> 00:05:24,069 with the spallation neutron source 131 00:05:24,694 --> 00:05:27,735 to enable us to characterize new materials. In 132 00:05:27,735 --> 00:05:30,154 fact, it actually enables the synthesis, 133 00:05:30,854 --> 00:05:32,394 the creation of these materials, 134 00:05:32,935 --> 00:05:33,675 the characterization, 135 00:05:34,214 --> 00:05:35,194 and then ultimately 136 00:05:35,735 --> 00:05:38,454 demonstrating control over them. So I'll give you 137 00:05:38,454 --> 00:05:39,754 one particular example. 138 00:05:40,169 --> 00:05:42,329 We are very interested in a type of 139 00:05:42,329 --> 00:05:44,910 material that is known as a spin liquid. 140 00:05:45,209 --> 00:05:47,389 It's a spin system, magnetic system, 141 00:05:47,930 --> 00:05:51,550 where the spins within the material can actually 142 00:05:51,689 --> 00:05:53,389 become entangled with each other, 143 00:05:53,975 --> 00:05:57,415 demonstrate correlations over very large distances. And this 144 00:05:57,415 --> 00:06:00,154 is large relative to individual atoms, mind you. 145 00:06:00,774 --> 00:06:03,095 And using the neutron source, we've actually been 146 00:06:03,095 --> 00:06:04,314 able to detect 147 00:06:04,694 --> 00:06:05,435 a signature 148 00:06:05,899 --> 00:06:08,300 that there is, in fact, entanglement present in 149 00:06:08,300 --> 00:06:11,580 these materials. This is ruthenium trichloride is one 150 00:06:11,580 --> 00:06:14,080 particular example of this type of quantum magnet, 151 00:06:14,139 --> 00:06:15,360 but there are several others. 152 00:06:16,060 --> 00:06:18,319 And because we have the capabilities 153 00:06:18,860 --> 00:06:21,615 of the the CNMS, the Center for Nanophase 154 00:06:21,675 --> 00:06:22,574 Material Science, 155 00:06:22,955 --> 00:06:25,355 we're now taking those materials that have been 156 00:06:25,355 --> 00:06:27,775 certified as quantum or entangled 157 00:06:28,235 --> 00:06:31,355 and translating them into a process where we 158 00:06:31,355 --> 00:06:33,455 start to design new types of devices. 159 00:06:34,129 --> 00:06:36,449 This gets into the fabrication of the material 160 00:06:36,449 --> 00:06:37,750 into unique geometries, 161 00:06:38,370 --> 00:06:40,930 the connection to electrodes and other types of 162 00:06:40,930 --> 00:06:41,829 control systems 163 00:06:42,370 --> 00:06:44,069 that then provide a path 164 00:06:44,370 --> 00:06:46,930 to demonstrating novel physics and other types of 165 00:06:46,930 --> 00:06:47,829 unique behaviors. 166 00:06:48,845 --> 00:06:50,605 Hamish, just to kind of, get to the 167 00:06:50,605 --> 00:06:52,685 punch line on this, what we really think 168 00:06:52,685 --> 00:06:54,845 is possible is that these types of quantum 169 00:06:54,845 --> 00:06:55,585 spin liquids 170 00:06:55,965 --> 00:06:58,705 can be translated into a new qubit technology 171 00:06:59,165 --> 00:07:01,345 that can store and process quantum information. 172 00:07:01,805 --> 00:07:04,259 We haven't demonstrated that yet, but the tools 173 00:07:04,259 --> 00:07:06,339 and capabilities that we have here at Oak 174 00:07:06,339 --> 00:07:08,360 Ridge are incredibly empowering, 175 00:07:08,980 --> 00:07:10,839 for that type of technology development. 176 00:07:11,860 --> 00:07:14,899 I see. And I'm guessing that it's very 177 00:07:14,899 --> 00:07:17,720 important to have all of these things together 178 00:07:18,339 --> 00:07:19,399 in one place 179 00:07:19,915 --> 00:07:22,095 and have some very skilled people 180 00:07:22,555 --> 00:07:23,035 who, 181 00:07:23,595 --> 00:07:25,435 know how to make the, 182 00:07:25,834 --> 00:07:28,475 devices that you're testing and also know how 183 00:07:28,475 --> 00:07:31,435 to use the sort of plethora of of 184 00:07:31,435 --> 00:07:32,574 analysis equipment 185 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:34,759 that you have. Can can can you talk 186 00:07:34,759 --> 00:07:35,480 a bit about, 187 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:37,020 about the people, 188 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,220 at Oak Ridge who are involved in this? 189 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,819 I'm guessing you've got physicists, chemists, material scientists, 190 00:07:44,279 --> 00:07:46,139 engineers all working together? 191 00:07:47,324 --> 00:07:49,024 It is absolutely a multidisciplinary 192 00:07:49,644 --> 00:07:50,944 environment. And 193 00:07:51,324 --> 00:07:52,464 I would say that 194 00:07:52,845 --> 00:07:53,985 the facilities, 195 00:07:54,444 --> 00:07:57,245 the the ecosystem that we've created within the 196 00:07:57,245 --> 00:07:57,745 laboratory 197 00:07:58,524 --> 00:07:59,024 actually 198 00:07:59,644 --> 00:08:03,169 supports this type of interchange and collaboration across 199 00:08:03,169 --> 00:08:03,669 disciplines. 200 00:08:04,209 --> 00:08:06,069 Just like you suggested, the 201 00:08:06,689 --> 00:08:09,569 the instruments that we have enable these new 202 00:08:09,569 --> 00:08:12,789 types of discoveries, these development of scientific ideas, 203 00:08:12,849 --> 00:08:14,470 the translation into technologies. 204 00:08:15,475 --> 00:08:18,115 But that's a multistep process. And you can 205 00:08:18,115 --> 00:08:20,035 only succeed when you have a team of 206 00:08:20,035 --> 00:08:22,115 people working together on these kind of large 207 00:08:22,115 --> 00:08:22,935 scale problems. 208 00:08:23,395 --> 00:08:25,415 And that team is always multidisciplinary. 209 00:08:26,514 --> 00:08:28,699 I will say that in my experience, 210 00:08:29,319 --> 00:08:32,379 the ability for the team to communicate efficiently, 211 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:34,139 to understand each other's 212 00:08:34,759 --> 00:08:37,320 concepts and reasoning, and to translate back and 213 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,899 forth across these disciplinary boundaries 214 00:08:40,595 --> 00:08:43,235 is probably one of the central and most 215 00:08:43,235 --> 00:08:46,534 important parts of, this type of scientific development. 216 00:08:47,475 --> 00:08:49,875 Certainly, when you have a common facility, a 217 00:08:49,875 --> 00:08:50,694 common infrastructure 218 00:08:51,394 --> 00:08:52,454 that can be facilitated 219 00:08:52,834 --> 00:08:54,454 by these types of, coordination, 220 00:08:55,330 --> 00:08:57,809 then you can get much more powerful science 221 00:08:57,809 --> 00:08:59,029 that comes out of it. 222 00:08:59,409 --> 00:09:00,769 Just to give you an example of what 223 00:09:00,769 --> 00:09:02,309 I'm what I'm thinking about here, 224 00:09:02,850 --> 00:09:04,389 when we talk about qubits 225 00:09:04,769 --> 00:09:07,589 in, quantum science and technology space, 226 00:09:08,235 --> 00:09:10,315 the truth is everybody has a slightly different 227 00:09:10,315 --> 00:09:13,294 definition of that word. For my computer scientist 228 00:09:13,355 --> 00:09:16,014 friends, this is sort of a logical representation 229 00:09:16,154 --> 00:09:19,595 of information that we manipulate through algorithms and 230 00:09:19,595 --> 00:09:21,774 programs and other types of, methods. 231 00:09:22,315 --> 00:09:23,455 While for my material 232 00:09:23,820 --> 00:09:25,899 scientist friends, this is almost always a two 233 00:09:25,899 --> 00:09:29,360 level system embedded in some electronic or magnetic 234 00:09:29,420 --> 00:09:32,379 degree of freedom and often independent of the 235 00:09:32,379 --> 00:09:32,879 logical, 236 00:09:33,340 --> 00:09:35,820 and and computational connections that are gonna be 237 00:09:35,820 --> 00:09:36,799 necessary there. 238 00:09:37,179 --> 00:09:40,235 So bridging that, is definitely a multidisciplinary, 239 00:09:41,414 --> 00:09:41,914 activity. 240 00:09:42,454 --> 00:09:43,834 And these types of facilities 241 00:09:44,534 --> 00:09:47,894 bring all those people together and really amplify 242 00:09:47,894 --> 00:09:50,054 the types of science and and development that 243 00:09:50,054 --> 00:09:50,639 can occur. 244 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,519 I see. And and can you talk a 245 00:09:53,519 --> 00:09:56,820 bit about, who you collaborate with outside 246 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,500 of, Oak Ridge? I'm I'm guessing that you 247 00:10:00,799 --> 00:10:02,960 you you you you're involved in lots of 248 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,425 projects with, with scientists from universities around The 249 00:10:06,425 --> 00:10:07,404 US, probably 250 00:10:07,865 --> 00:10:08,845 around the world, 251 00:10:10,024 --> 00:10:11,085 I would imagine. 252 00:10:11,865 --> 00:10:13,705 Is that a I'm guessing that's a big 253 00:10:13,705 --> 00:10:15,404 part of what you do, collaboration, 254 00:10:16,024 --> 00:10:16,524 enabling 255 00:10:17,940 --> 00:10:20,179 university scientists, for example, to, 256 00:10:20,820 --> 00:10:21,639 to do experiments. 257 00:10:23,299 --> 00:10:24,440 The national laboratories 258 00:10:24,899 --> 00:10:27,059 play an important role, I think, in the 259 00:10:27,059 --> 00:10:29,860 ecosystem for research and development within The United 260 00:10:29,860 --> 00:10:30,360 States. 261 00:10:30,855 --> 00:10:31,674 And partnerships 262 00:10:32,054 --> 00:10:34,634 are a critical piece of that activity. 263 00:10:35,254 --> 00:10:37,514 Some of these are partnerships with universities, 264 00:10:38,214 --> 00:10:38,714 especially, 265 00:10:39,254 --> 00:10:39,754 individual 266 00:10:40,214 --> 00:10:43,495 investigators who are looking to get access to 267 00:10:43,495 --> 00:10:46,394 these, types of instruments that we're talking about. 268 00:10:46,789 --> 00:10:49,110 Of course, as user facilities for the Department 269 00:10:49,110 --> 00:10:52,250 of Energy, there are actually programs in place 270 00:10:52,309 --> 00:10:55,129 to go and apply to, use an instrument 271 00:10:55,750 --> 00:10:58,069 or spend time with scientists who are working 272 00:10:58,069 --> 00:11:00,250 there to develop an idea and ultimately 273 00:11:00,684 --> 00:11:03,165 publish on the results from it. But in 274 00:11:03,165 --> 00:11:05,085 addition, a lot of the work that we 275 00:11:05,085 --> 00:11:07,884 do within these facilities and within the national 276 00:11:07,884 --> 00:11:08,384 laboratories 277 00:11:09,165 --> 00:11:10,465 requires that partnership. 278 00:11:11,644 --> 00:11:14,764 Easily, the the the most obvious one is 279 00:11:14,764 --> 00:11:15,264 workforce 280 00:11:15,690 --> 00:11:18,669 And the ability to train the next generation 281 00:11:18,809 --> 00:11:20,889 of scientists and engineers who are gonna work 282 00:11:20,889 --> 00:11:21,790 on these topics 283 00:11:22,330 --> 00:11:23,470 oftentimes requires 284 00:11:23,850 --> 00:11:26,730 early exposure and understanding of what the national 285 00:11:26,730 --> 00:11:27,870 labs do, the mission, 286 00:11:28,194 --> 00:11:30,115 but also the types of equipment and and 287 00:11:30,115 --> 00:11:31,654 methods that we're using here. 288 00:11:32,194 --> 00:11:35,014 So in addition to kind of pursuing research 289 00:11:35,074 --> 00:11:38,274 goals and developing science and breakthroughs in these 290 00:11:38,274 --> 00:11:38,774 areas, 291 00:11:39,315 --> 00:11:42,820 that partnership also builds up this infrastructure, these 292 00:11:42,820 --> 00:11:45,639 personnel that we're talking about that can support 293 00:11:45,700 --> 00:11:47,940 the operation of the center, the operation of 294 00:11:47,940 --> 00:11:48,600 the laboratories, 295 00:11:49,139 --> 00:11:50,519 and put all of that forward. 296 00:11:51,379 --> 00:11:53,960 Here at Oak Ridge, we actually have a 297 00:11:55,644 --> 00:11:56,704 highly ambitious 298 00:11:57,004 --> 00:11:57,504 and, 299 00:11:58,204 --> 00:11:59,985 I would say, impactful effort 300 00:12:00,365 --> 00:12:03,164 through our Quantum Science Center. And the Quantum 301 00:12:03,164 --> 00:12:05,725 Science Center is one of the Department of 302 00:12:05,725 --> 00:12:09,184 Energy's National Quantum Information Science Research Centers. 303 00:12:09,570 --> 00:12:10,629 It is a, 304 00:12:11,170 --> 00:12:11,670 partnership. 305 00:12:12,210 --> 00:12:13,830 The QSC is a partnership 306 00:12:14,290 --> 00:12:16,870 led by Oak Ridge, but all but including 307 00:12:16,929 --> 00:12:18,389 over 20 other institutions, 308 00:12:18,929 --> 00:12:20,929 involved in that partnership, and many of those 309 00:12:20,929 --> 00:12:21,910 coming from universities 310 00:12:22,495 --> 00:12:23,715 as well as industry. 311 00:12:24,335 --> 00:12:27,315 So this type of coordination of effort 312 00:12:27,695 --> 00:12:28,595 and the collaboration 313 00:12:28,975 --> 00:12:29,715 of multidisciplinary 314 00:12:30,415 --> 00:12:31,554 and even kind of, 315 00:12:33,215 --> 00:12:36,195 perspectives from industry, academia, and government 316 00:12:36,929 --> 00:12:37,429 is 317 00:12:37,970 --> 00:12:38,610 is in, 318 00:12:39,809 --> 00:12:40,790 very good hands, 319 00:12:41,169 --> 00:12:42,230 within the laboratory 320 00:12:42,690 --> 00:12:45,009 because it requires us to have that type 321 00:12:45,009 --> 00:12:47,730 of partnership and focused effort in order to 322 00:12:47,730 --> 00:12:48,870 make these advances. 323 00:12:50,664 --> 00:12:53,784 And I would imagine with quantum I mean, 324 00:12:53,784 --> 00:12:55,804 quantum is is is real 325 00:12:56,424 --> 00:12:58,904 business now, isn't it? It's not just ideas 326 00:12:58,904 --> 00:13:01,384 about about how you could start a company 327 00:13:01,384 --> 00:13:02,764 based on quantum technologies. 328 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,980 Your collaboration with industry must be growing, 329 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:09,620 on leaps and bounds, 330 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:11,139 over the years. 331 00:13:12,799 --> 00:13:15,200 You're exactly right. What I would say is 332 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:16,019 most interesting, 333 00:13:17,174 --> 00:13:19,514 from my perspective at the moment is that 334 00:13:19,894 --> 00:13:22,535 quantum has emerged over the last decade in 335 00:13:22,535 --> 00:13:23,035 particular 336 00:13:23,894 --> 00:13:25,195 as a national 337 00:13:25,575 --> 00:13:26,715 scientific priority. 338 00:13:27,254 --> 00:13:29,035 And this is cut across multiple 339 00:13:30,570 --> 00:13:31,950 federal government administrations. 340 00:13:33,049 --> 00:13:35,850 It's continuing today. And what we are finding 341 00:13:35,850 --> 00:13:38,110 is that that priority is driven by 342 00:13:38,570 --> 00:13:41,309 the concerns for national security. It's a critical 343 00:13:41,370 --> 00:13:41,870 technology. 344 00:13:42,250 --> 00:13:45,485 We're effectively changing out the the technology 345 00:13:45,865 --> 00:13:49,065 basis of a entire planet, and, that has 346 00:13:49,065 --> 00:13:51,164 huge implications in many different areas. 347 00:13:51,785 --> 00:13:53,884 It provides economic advantage, 348 00:13:54,264 --> 00:13:57,304 including the development of new products and services. 349 00:13:57,304 --> 00:13:58,759 And this, of course, 350 00:13:59,220 --> 00:14:01,060 is one of the reasons industry is so 351 00:14:01,060 --> 00:14:03,460 interested in this type of technology is that 352 00:14:03,460 --> 00:14:05,000 it opens up opportunities 353 00:14:05,540 --> 00:14:07,460 that frankly you can't get to in any 354 00:14:07,460 --> 00:14:08,200 other way. 355 00:14:08,580 --> 00:14:10,759 And then I think from my own perspective, 356 00:14:11,764 --> 00:14:13,304 quantum is an enabling 357 00:14:15,205 --> 00:14:15,705 ability 358 00:14:16,565 --> 00:14:19,285 for new scientific discoveries. And that, of course, 359 00:14:19,285 --> 00:14:22,825 has huge implications for things in energy innovation 360 00:14:23,365 --> 00:14:23,865 and 361 00:14:24,769 --> 00:14:25,750 and other topics. 362 00:14:26,370 --> 00:14:26,870 So 363 00:14:27,330 --> 00:14:29,490 because of this kind of setting, the context 364 00:14:29,490 --> 00:14:31,509 right now in the in The United States, 365 00:14:32,210 --> 00:14:34,610 the drive for industry to develop these new 366 00:14:34,610 --> 00:14:37,570 products and services, the focus on the government 367 00:14:37,570 --> 00:14:39,934 and other parts of the the ecosystem 368 00:14:40,235 --> 00:14:41,855 to build out these capabilities 369 00:14:42,795 --> 00:14:44,495 has not only increased 370 00:14:44,875 --> 00:14:46,415 the the stake 371 00:14:46,795 --> 00:14:47,295 in, 372 00:14:47,674 --> 00:14:48,815 what we're all pursuing, 373 00:14:49,195 --> 00:14:51,674 but also driven home the emphasis that we 374 00:14:51,674 --> 00:14:53,134 need to all do this together. 375 00:14:53,595 --> 00:14:56,129 So, So certainly, the national laboratories and industry 376 00:14:56,129 --> 00:14:57,509 are partnering very closely, 377 00:14:57,970 --> 00:15:00,850 including the ability to access the types of 378 00:15:00,850 --> 00:15:03,809 instruments that we have here through SNS and 379 00:15:03,809 --> 00:15:06,709 the CNMS, as well as, other facilities. 380 00:15:07,934 --> 00:15:10,674 But at the same time, we're getting access 381 00:15:10,735 --> 00:15:12,975 to the types of technologies that industry is 382 00:15:12,975 --> 00:15:13,475 developing, 383 00:15:14,095 --> 00:15:16,754 especially in their quantum computing platforms. 384 00:15:17,615 --> 00:15:19,615 So this is one of the most exciting 385 00:15:19,615 --> 00:15:21,294 partnerships I think that we have at the 386 00:15:21,294 --> 00:15:23,680 moment is how can we, as a laboratory, 387 00:15:24,620 --> 00:15:27,500 understand these new products and services that industry 388 00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:29,899 is creating in the quantum space and start 389 00:15:29,899 --> 00:15:33,180 to integrate them, adapt them into our own 390 00:15:33,180 --> 00:15:34,800 scientific discovery workflows. 391 00:15:35,285 --> 00:15:36,404 And, of course, this is, 392 00:15:37,045 --> 00:15:39,205 one of the hottest areas right now. How 393 00:15:39,205 --> 00:15:40,745 do you use a quantum computer 394 00:15:41,045 --> 00:15:43,524 to solve these types of material science problems 395 00:15:43,524 --> 00:15:45,684 that we were just talking about, with the 396 00:15:45,684 --> 00:15:47,065 sphalation neutron source? 397 00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:50,259 And I I wanna talk to you may 398 00:15:50,339 --> 00:15:50,839 maybe 399 00:15:51,220 --> 00:15:54,839 in a while about, about using quantum computing 400 00:15:55,299 --> 00:15:57,620 computers, which I think is that's something that 401 00:15:57,620 --> 00:16:00,580 Oak Ridge is, is involved in. But first, 402 00:16:00,580 --> 00:16:01,860 I want to ask you about, 403 00:16:02,674 --> 00:16:05,634 sort of classical computing because, of course, the 404 00:16:05,634 --> 00:16:07,254 lab is also famous 405 00:16:07,954 --> 00:16:09,894 for its, high performance 406 00:16:10,274 --> 00:16:10,774 computing. 407 00:16:11,235 --> 00:16:14,034 And, it's home to Frontier, which is one 408 00:16:14,034 --> 00:16:16,134 of the world's most powerful supercomputers. 409 00:16:17,070 --> 00:16:18,990 Can you talk a bit about how the 410 00:16:18,990 --> 00:16:22,610 lab is using its expertise in classical computation 411 00:16:22,910 --> 00:16:26,210 to develop new paradigms for quantum computing? 412 00:16:28,750 --> 00:16:30,129 High performance computing, 413 00:16:30,910 --> 00:16:31,649 has been 414 00:16:32,245 --> 00:16:35,544 a remarkable and disruptive ability for 415 00:16:36,084 --> 00:16:37,544 not just exploring 416 00:16:38,004 --> 00:16:39,144 complex systems, 417 00:16:39,524 --> 00:16:40,824 but also understanding 418 00:16:41,125 --> 00:16:42,504 their behaviors and 419 00:16:42,884 --> 00:16:45,464 how those behaviors can be controlled and ultimately 420 00:16:45,684 --> 00:16:47,625 applied to to new ideas. 421 00:16:49,230 --> 00:16:52,110 One particular example is in the area of 422 00:16:52,110 --> 00:16:53,250 material science, 423 00:16:53,949 --> 00:16:56,929 chemistry, biology, other complex physical systems, 424 00:16:57,470 --> 00:16:59,009 where modeling and simulation 425 00:17:00,044 --> 00:17:02,784 play a huge role in our scientific discovery 426 00:17:02,924 --> 00:17:05,904 process. In fact, many people would say that 427 00:17:05,964 --> 00:17:07,585 next to theory and experiment, 428 00:17:08,365 --> 00:17:10,924 computation is a sort of a third pillar 429 00:17:10,924 --> 00:17:12,545 of the the r and d ecosystem. 430 00:17:13,460 --> 00:17:16,819 And here, high performance computers are the high 431 00:17:16,819 --> 00:17:19,700 bar on capability when it comes to modeling 432 00:17:19,700 --> 00:17:20,359 and simulation, 433 00:17:21,059 --> 00:17:23,700 even optimization and design. A lot of times, 434 00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:26,119 we're using these classical computing capabilities 435 00:17:27,025 --> 00:17:28,484 to reason about systems, 436 00:17:28,944 --> 00:17:31,345 come up with the best alternatives, or or 437 00:17:31,345 --> 00:17:32,644 optimize their behaviors. 438 00:17:33,345 --> 00:17:34,085 And then 439 00:17:34,384 --> 00:17:35,605 one of the most remarkable, 440 00:17:37,025 --> 00:17:39,585 examples in the the last several years has 441 00:17:39,585 --> 00:17:40,484 been the application 442 00:17:41,025 --> 00:17:41,845 of HPC 443 00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:44,970 to machine learning and artificial intelligence. 444 00:17:46,230 --> 00:17:48,869 So cutting across kind of those three big, 445 00:17:49,349 --> 00:17:49,849 application 446 00:17:50,150 --> 00:17:50,650 areas, 447 00:17:51,190 --> 00:17:53,609 you can start to understand that high performance 448 00:17:53,670 --> 00:17:56,250 computing is just as powerful of a tool 449 00:17:56,644 --> 00:17:59,625 as the spallation neutron source or the CNMS 450 00:18:00,325 --> 00:18:01,384 when it comes to 451 00:18:02,085 --> 00:18:05,065 understanding and exploring these complex physical systems. 452 00:18:05,845 --> 00:18:06,664 What is, 453 00:18:08,005 --> 00:18:09,065 been very important 454 00:18:09,490 --> 00:18:12,289 about having all of these facilities colocated at 455 00:18:12,289 --> 00:18:13,029 Oak Ridge 456 00:18:13,329 --> 00:18:15,349 is that you can create that ecosystem 457 00:18:16,210 --> 00:18:16,710 where 458 00:18:17,089 --> 00:18:19,409 the simulation that we've run on the high 459 00:18:19,409 --> 00:18:21,829 performance computer provides datasets 460 00:18:22,434 --> 00:18:24,355 that can be compared directly with the types 461 00:18:24,355 --> 00:18:26,674 of data that's coming out of the neutron 462 00:18:26,674 --> 00:18:27,815 scattering experiments. 463 00:18:28,515 --> 00:18:31,974 And that provides a very tight and, coordinated 464 00:18:32,355 --> 00:18:33,335 cycle of development 465 00:18:33,795 --> 00:18:35,875 that ensures that we get to the the 466 00:18:35,875 --> 00:18:37,974 best results the fastest way possible. 467 00:18:38,750 --> 00:18:41,710 Of course, this again introduces the the questions 468 00:18:41,710 --> 00:18:43,250 that we were talking about earlier 469 00:18:43,789 --> 00:18:45,089 when it comes to multidisciplinary 470 00:18:45,629 --> 00:18:48,929 efforts and, team science as we call it. 471 00:18:49,149 --> 00:18:51,149 You have to have good coordination. You have 472 00:18:51,149 --> 00:18:52,609 to have clarity and communication. 473 00:18:53,174 --> 00:18:54,615 And then, of course, you have to have 474 00:18:54,615 --> 00:18:57,335 a very clear vision about the goals that 475 00:18:57,335 --> 00:18:58,475 you're trying to accomplish. 476 00:18:59,174 --> 00:19:01,035 That's what keeps this all on the rails, 477 00:19:01,494 --> 00:19:03,654 making sure that all of these efforts have 478 00:19:03,654 --> 00:19:06,240 a common understanding of the mission of the 479 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,640 the laboratory as well as the, the Department 480 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:09,299 of Energy. 481 00:19:09,839 --> 00:19:12,960 High performance computing is, certainly one of the 482 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,019 the biggest and, I would say, most significant 483 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,640 capabilities that we have right now for pushing 484 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:19,779 that frontier forward. 485 00:19:21,154 --> 00:19:23,795 I see. And and Travis, you're also director 486 00:19:23,795 --> 00:19:27,875 of Oak Ridge's quantum computing user program, and 487 00:19:27,875 --> 00:19:30,855 that provides access to commercial quantum computers. 488 00:19:31,634 --> 00:19:33,974 Who who are your users? Are they 489 00:19:34,980 --> 00:19:35,480 industry 490 00:19:35,779 --> 00:19:37,080 or a bit of both? 491 00:19:37,619 --> 00:19:39,940 And what resources do do you provide them 492 00:19:39,940 --> 00:19:40,440 with? 493 00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:44,740 The quantum computing user program was started back 494 00:19:44,740 --> 00:19:46,279 in 02/2017. 495 00:19:47,125 --> 00:19:47,944 At that time, 496 00:19:48,404 --> 00:19:51,605 quantum computers were just begun just beginning to 497 00:19:51,605 --> 00:19:52,345 come online. 498 00:19:52,884 --> 00:19:53,384 So, 499 00:19:54,005 --> 00:19:56,244 a few of the vendors like IBM and 500 00:19:56,244 --> 00:19:58,345 D Wave and maybe one or two others 501 00:19:58,900 --> 00:20:00,440 were starting to see value 502 00:20:00,740 --> 00:20:01,480 in having 503 00:20:02,019 --> 00:20:03,880 their systems available publicly, 504 00:20:04,579 --> 00:20:05,720 through different mechanisms 505 00:20:06,339 --> 00:20:08,359 so that they could generate feedback 506 00:20:08,819 --> 00:20:11,539 on the development and the design, the operation 507 00:20:11,539 --> 00:20:12,440 of those systems. 508 00:20:13,345 --> 00:20:16,005 Well, of course, one of the main motivations 509 00:20:16,304 --> 00:20:18,164 behind developing quantum computing 510 00:20:18,625 --> 00:20:21,184 has been the creation of a platform that 511 00:20:21,184 --> 00:20:23,904 could be used to model and simulate complex 512 00:20:23,904 --> 00:20:24,404 systems. 513 00:20:25,279 --> 00:20:27,679 And that immediately aligns with the types of 514 00:20:27,679 --> 00:20:29,519 goals that we have at Oak Ridge and, 515 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,099 within many of the national laboratories. 516 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,339 So we saw an opportunity 517 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:35,940 to partner with industry 518 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,700 on gaining access to their quantum computing systems. 519 00:20:40,595 --> 00:20:42,755 In our case, though, we didn't wanna just 520 00:20:42,755 --> 00:20:44,775 keep it internal within the laboratory. 521 00:20:45,474 --> 00:20:47,795 We wanted to expand that user base to 522 00:20:47,795 --> 00:20:49,474 bring in people the same way we do 523 00:20:49,474 --> 00:20:50,695 with our other facilities 524 00:20:51,315 --> 00:20:53,734 so that they can also contribute and provide 525 00:20:53,795 --> 00:20:54,855 insights into 526 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,919 what makes a good quantum computer, and when 527 00:20:57,919 --> 00:21:00,480 are the quantum computers good enough that they're 528 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,119 changing the face of what we're already doing 529 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:04,819 within scientific discovery. 530 00:21:05,519 --> 00:21:08,000 So the Quantum Computing User Program, or Q 531 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:09,619 Cup, as we call it for short, 532 00:21:10,265 --> 00:21:13,404 is now part of our leadership computing facility, 533 00:21:13,544 --> 00:21:15,964 the same facility that houses the Frontier, 534 00:21:17,065 --> 00:21:17,964 computing system. 535 00:21:18,664 --> 00:21:20,125 And through that program, 536 00:21:20,744 --> 00:21:21,565 we recruit 537 00:21:21,865 --> 00:21:23,690 users from all over the country, 538 00:21:24,149 --> 00:21:26,009 a few outside of The US as well, 539 00:21:26,549 --> 00:21:29,509 to submit proposals that can then be reviewed 540 00:21:29,509 --> 00:21:30,009 internally, 541 00:21:30,789 --> 00:21:34,009 competitively awarded based on their merit and feasibility. 542 00:21:34,950 --> 00:21:37,109 And then they basically get time to, 543 00:21:37,984 --> 00:21:40,545 the quantum computing vendors that we've contracted with 544 00:21:40,545 --> 00:21:41,845 through the Q Cup program 545 00:21:42,384 --> 00:21:44,644 to test and evaluate their programs. 546 00:21:45,505 --> 00:21:47,525 Now currently, we have four vendors, 547 00:21:48,065 --> 00:21:48,565 IBM, 548 00:21:48,945 --> 00:21:49,445 Quantinuum, 549 00:21:50,144 --> 00:21:50,644 IQM, 550 00:21:50,945 --> 00:21:51,765 and IonQ. 551 00:21:52,570 --> 00:21:55,230 And through those vendors, we actually have 552 00:21:56,250 --> 00:21:58,590 gained allocation to run on their systems. 553 00:21:59,210 --> 00:22:00,830 We manage the resources 554 00:22:01,210 --> 00:22:03,210 with the user base that we have through 555 00:22:03,210 --> 00:22:04,350 the Q Cup program. 556 00:22:04,970 --> 00:22:06,365 That's, I think, historically 557 00:22:06,744 --> 00:22:09,945 close to around 400 users from, again, over 558 00:22:09,945 --> 00:22:11,005 many different areas. 559 00:22:11,865 --> 00:22:14,904 And we manage the portfolio of projects that 560 00:22:14,904 --> 00:22:16,525 they are actually exploring. 561 00:22:16,984 --> 00:22:19,085 So just like we were talking about earlier, 562 00:22:19,669 --> 00:22:22,730 materials, chemistry, biology, machine learning, 563 00:22:23,109 --> 00:22:24,169 computer science, 564 00:22:25,429 --> 00:22:27,669 there's close to 20 or 30 different topics 565 00:22:27,669 --> 00:22:28,970 that we keep track of, 566 00:22:29,269 --> 00:22:31,589 and we have a portfolio of these users 567 00:22:31,589 --> 00:22:34,305 who are all investigating those those different areas. 568 00:22:35,005 --> 00:22:37,164 It's a remarkable program, and I should say 569 00:22:37,164 --> 00:22:38,225 it is very, 570 00:22:39,085 --> 00:22:40,625 well received by the community. 571 00:22:41,644 --> 00:22:43,265 That's not to say that 572 00:22:43,805 --> 00:22:44,305 the 573 00:22:46,125 --> 00:22:47,345 that it's not a dynamic, 574 00:22:48,045 --> 00:22:50,240 aspect. And what I mean by that is 575 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,159 every year, we have something we call the 576 00:22:52,159 --> 00:22:54,880 quantum computing user forum. It'll be coming up 577 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,359 at the July this year. We get the 578 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,359 users and the vendors together, and we all 579 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,394 sit down, and we talk about what have 580 00:23:01,394 --> 00:23:03,475 been the latest results in our use of 581 00:23:03,475 --> 00:23:04,134 the systems. 582 00:23:04,755 --> 00:23:06,674 And many times, what we will find is 583 00:23:06,674 --> 00:23:09,555 that the users have identified a bottleneck or 584 00:23:09,555 --> 00:23:10,295 a pitfall 585 00:23:10,835 --> 00:23:12,375 that's limiting the availability 586 00:23:12,674 --> 00:23:13,654 of their calculations. 587 00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:16,069 Maybe it's the noise or the error in 588 00:23:16,069 --> 00:23:18,730 the systems. Maybe it's the programming interface. 589 00:23:19,429 --> 00:23:21,609 And this is an opportunity for the vendors 590 00:23:21,909 --> 00:23:24,169 to accept that feedback, to make modifications, 591 00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:27,269 changes in their own roadmaps and interfaces and 592 00:23:27,269 --> 00:23:27,769 designs 593 00:23:28,164 --> 00:23:30,105 that can be responsive to that community. 594 00:23:30,644 --> 00:23:32,644 I think that's actually one of the the 595 00:23:32,644 --> 00:23:35,384 most amazing parts of this particular program is 596 00:23:35,444 --> 00:23:38,164 the dynamic aspect with which the users and 597 00:23:38,164 --> 00:23:40,325 the vendors can engage through each with each 598 00:23:40,325 --> 00:23:42,679 other. And then, of course, from our perspective 599 00:23:42,740 --> 00:23:44,679 at the at the national laboratory, 600 00:23:45,220 --> 00:23:47,380 how do we get ready for integrating that 601 00:23:47,380 --> 00:23:47,880 technology 602 00:23:48,500 --> 00:23:51,539 into a future high performance computing system that 603 00:23:51,539 --> 00:23:53,299 can offer this type of service at a 604 00:23:53,299 --> 00:23:54,815 at a much larger one. 605 00:23:56,075 --> 00:23:56,575 Right. 606 00:23:56,875 --> 00:23:58,794 I see. And and, there, are you talking 607 00:23:58,794 --> 00:24:00,875 about sort of a hybrid system that takes 608 00:24:00,875 --> 00:24:02,014 advantage of both 609 00:24:02,315 --> 00:24:04,494 a quantum computer and, say, 610 00:24:05,115 --> 00:24:05,774 a supercomputer 611 00:24:06,154 --> 00:24:08,700 and, you know, sort of runs the appropriate 612 00:24:08,759 --> 00:24:09,900 parts of the problem 613 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:10,940 on each, 614 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,160 type of hardware to, sort of maximize the 615 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:15,660 efficiency 616 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:17,019 of the calculation? 617 00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:20,619 I think hybrid systems are the future. 618 00:24:21,855 --> 00:24:23,954 Both in the the context of 619 00:24:24,734 --> 00:24:28,194 we want to integrate quantum computing, the devices, 620 00:24:28,255 --> 00:24:29,714 the methods, the technology 621 00:24:30,575 --> 00:24:31,394 into our 622 00:24:31,855 --> 00:24:35,000 current scientific infrastructure. And of course, that means 623 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,880 high performance computing systems. They're so important to 624 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:38,859 what we do here. 625 00:24:39,319 --> 00:24:40,539 I envision that 626 00:24:40,839 --> 00:24:42,839 we will have some way of taking the 627 00:24:42,839 --> 00:24:43,819 quantum computers, 628 00:24:44,519 --> 00:24:46,859 connecting them both physically and logically 629 00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:49,704 to the HPC systems So we can do 630 00:24:49,704 --> 00:24:51,804 exactly as you were describing that 631 00:24:52,105 --> 00:24:53,484 the users, the scientific, 632 00:24:54,264 --> 00:24:57,464 computing users will develop a program. Let's say 633 00:24:57,464 --> 00:24:59,484 it's simulation of a quantum material. 634 00:25:00,024 --> 00:25:02,184 That program does not have to be entirely 635 00:25:02,184 --> 00:25:04,169 run on the quantum computer. There can be 636 00:25:04,169 --> 00:25:06,569 parts of it that are preprocessing or pro 637 00:25:06,569 --> 00:25:09,869 pro post processing on the, HPC system 638 00:25:10,250 --> 00:25:12,409 or even some sort of hybrid method where 639 00:25:12,409 --> 00:25:14,190 we're sampling the quantum computer 640 00:25:14,569 --> 00:25:17,549 to inform calculations that are performed on HPC. 641 00:25:17,609 --> 00:25:19,275 There there's lots of options here. 642 00:25:19,835 --> 00:25:21,674 But that's not the only way in which 643 00:25:21,674 --> 00:25:23,775 this type of technology can be integrated. 644 00:25:24,234 --> 00:25:27,455 We can also imagine integrating the quantum computer 645 00:25:27,515 --> 00:25:28,494 directly into 646 00:25:29,035 --> 00:25:29,775 the characterization 647 00:25:30,154 --> 00:25:32,575 and the sensing of these types of materials 648 00:25:33,179 --> 00:25:34,559 so that that calculation 649 00:25:34,859 --> 00:25:36,000 is actually informed 650 00:25:36,539 --> 00:25:38,559 directly by experimental data. 651 00:25:39,099 --> 00:25:40,960 So this type of interconnected, 652 00:25:43,339 --> 00:25:46,619 devices that include computers and sensors and other 653 00:25:46,619 --> 00:25:48,559 types of, quantum technologies, 654 00:25:49,285 --> 00:25:50,884 I think that's a much bigger version of 655 00:25:50,884 --> 00:25:51,605 this hybrid, 656 00:25:52,005 --> 00:25:52,505 paradigm 657 00:25:53,204 --> 00:25:55,045 and certainly something that we can, 658 00:25:55,605 --> 00:25:56,664 evaluate more. 659 00:25:57,365 --> 00:26:00,884 But the idea of connecting quantum technology to 660 00:26:00,884 --> 00:26:02,424 the current scientific infrastructure, 661 00:26:03,220 --> 00:26:05,460 I think this is an absolute necessity for 662 00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:06,839 the survival of the technology 663 00:26:07,539 --> 00:26:10,500 to be, both useful and impactful on the 664 00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:11,480 scientific community. 665 00:26:12,500 --> 00:26:14,019 I see. And you and you brought me 666 00:26:14,019 --> 00:26:16,440 nicely to my next question, which is about 667 00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:17,559 quantum sensors. 668 00:26:19,184 --> 00:26:20,224 I'm guessing that, 669 00:26:20,625 --> 00:26:23,025 that Oak Ridge is in is, involved in 670 00:26:23,025 --> 00:26:24,164 developing materials, 671 00:26:25,105 --> 00:26:28,224 for quantum sensors as well as quantum competing 672 00:26:28,224 --> 00:26:28,724 devices. 673 00:26:30,304 --> 00:26:31,924 You're exactly right. The 674 00:26:32,859 --> 00:26:34,000 ability to 675 00:26:34,940 --> 00:26:35,440 characterize, 676 00:26:36,059 --> 00:26:39,039 to sense, to detect unique quantum signals 677 00:26:39,660 --> 00:26:40,960 is actually requiring 678 00:26:41,419 --> 00:26:41,919 advances 679 00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:45,099 in those same types of technologies. And and 680 00:26:45,099 --> 00:26:46,700 what I mean by this is that many 681 00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:47,200 times, 682 00:26:48,204 --> 00:26:50,544 the features of a of a signal, 683 00:26:50,845 --> 00:26:52,944 let's say it's a spectrum 684 00:26:53,244 --> 00:26:55,724 or some sort of response function, whatever it 685 00:26:55,724 --> 00:26:56,384 might be, 686 00:26:57,085 --> 00:26:57,904 many times 687 00:26:58,284 --> 00:26:59,024 the the 688 00:26:59,569 --> 00:27:01,990 type of feature that we're looking for is 689 00:27:02,210 --> 00:27:03,589 uniquely quantum mechanical, 690 00:27:04,210 --> 00:27:06,710 and that requires an increase in sensitivity 691 00:27:07,009 --> 00:27:07,750 and precision, 692 00:27:08,769 --> 00:27:11,109 in the measurement capability to surpass 693 00:27:11,875 --> 00:27:12,855 what would be conventional 694 00:27:13,234 --> 00:27:13,734 limitations 695 00:27:14,194 --> 00:27:16,115 on the noise and the error in those 696 00:27:16,115 --> 00:27:17,015 types of measurements. 697 00:27:17,794 --> 00:27:20,194 And probably one of the places that Oak 698 00:27:20,194 --> 00:27:22,134 Ridge has, the most expertise 699 00:27:22,914 --> 00:27:24,835 is in surpassing what we call the shot 700 00:27:24,835 --> 00:27:25,559 noise limit. 701 00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:28,779 And this is a typical type of statistical 702 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,920 error that occurs as you make many types 703 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:31,580 of measurements. 704 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:33,559 It turns out that the, 705 00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:37,000 that particular type of error should scale as 706 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:37,820 one over, 707 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:40,315 the square root of n, where n is 708 00:27:40,315 --> 00:27:42,315 the number of samples that you're collecting. This 709 00:27:42,315 --> 00:27:44,654 is very, well known, statistical, 710 00:27:45,835 --> 00:27:48,414 consequence of classical information theory. 711 00:27:49,115 --> 00:27:49,855 But quantum, 712 00:27:50,795 --> 00:27:53,535 information theory actually provides us a pathway 713 00:27:54,279 --> 00:27:54,779 to 714 00:27:55,319 --> 00:27:56,539 reduce that sensitivity 715 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:57,900 to the the, 716 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,440 measurements. In fact, what I mean to say 717 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,279 here is that it changes it from one 718 00:28:02,279 --> 00:28:03,880 over square root of n to one over 719 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,799 n so that you have a much better 720 00:28:05,799 --> 00:28:08,279 resolution in the measurements using the same number 721 00:28:08,279 --> 00:28:09,259 of of collections. 722 00:28:10,295 --> 00:28:11,755 And that type of 723 00:28:12,214 --> 00:28:12,714 development 724 00:28:13,015 --> 00:28:15,595 of sensors that surpass the shot noise limit 725 00:28:16,054 --> 00:28:17,755 gives us a way of 726 00:28:18,214 --> 00:28:19,355 removing the veil 727 00:28:19,654 --> 00:28:22,775 of classical theory that currently covers the quantum 728 00:28:22,775 --> 00:28:23,275 world. 729 00:28:23,734 --> 00:28:25,115 And that exposes 730 00:28:25,470 --> 00:28:27,549 all of these quantum signatures that we're looking 731 00:28:27,549 --> 00:28:29,789 for. Of course, it's a very demanding and 732 00:28:29,789 --> 00:28:32,750 highly sensitive experiment, but those are the ways 733 00:28:32,750 --> 00:28:35,710 that we're trying to create quantum sensors that 734 00:28:35,710 --> 00:28:38,829 can characterize materials, look for topological order and 735 00:28:38,829 --> 00:28:40,755 entanglement in exciting new ways. 736 00:28:41,795 --> 00:28:43,634 But then, of course, as we were saying 737 00:28:43,634 --> 00:28:44,134 earlier, 738 00:28:44,914 --> 00:28:45,734 those capabilities 739 00:28:46,595 --> 00:28:49,174 can now be fed directly into 740 00:28:49,634 --> 00:28:51,815 these types of quantum computing systems 741 00:28:52,275 --> 00:28:54,920 where they're naturally using that quantum 742 00:28:55,460 --> 00:28:58,019 representation of the data. It's a much better, 743 00:28:58,019 --> 00:29:00,759 more accurate, more precise representation of the data, 744 00:29:00,980 --> 00:29:03,619 which can only serve to amplify our ability 745 00:29:03,619 --> 00:29:04,680 to perform calculations. 746 00:29:05,860 --> 00:29:07,875 I see. And I I wanted to also 747 00:29:07,875 --> 00:29:08,855 ask you about, 748 00:29:09,555 --> 00:29:12,515 Oak Ridge's work in coming up with ways 749 00:29:12,515 --> 00:29:13,654 to use existing 750 00:29:14,275 --> 00:29:15,654 fiber optic infrastructure 751 00:29:16,355 --> 00:29:19,235 to create a quantum Internet that, 752 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,140 I suppose would allow quantum computers to be 753 00:29:23,279 --> 00:29:25,840 connected to each other and quantum information to 754 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,640 be sent over long distances. Can you can 755 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,200 you talk a bit about that research? What 756 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,059 what what are the challenges of using 757 00:29:33,525 --> 00:29:34,744 existing infrastructure? 758 00:29:35,125 --> 00:29:37,365 And, what what what are people at Oak 759 00:29:37,365 --> 00:29:39,305 Ridge doing to overcome those challenges? 760 00:29:41,125 --> 00:29:44,585 Integrating quantum technologies into our existing infrastructure 761 00:29:45,125 --> 00:29:46,904 is anything but straightforward. 762 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,240 We, of course, have to deal with the 763 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,279 fact that the interface to the the worlds 764 00:29:52,279 --> 00:29:54,619 of quantum and classical mechanics are, 765 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,220 very different from each other. 766 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,099 The quantum state is kind of the 767 00:30:02,105 --> 00:30:05,164 most important object to be maintained and preserved 768 00:30:05,224 --> 00:30:07,384 through all of this sensing and computing and 769 00:30:07,384 --> 00:30:07,884 transmission, 770 00:30:08,424 --> 00:30:08,924 processes. 771 00:30:09,945 --> 00:30:13,404 And that interface now with our hybrid infrastructure 772 00:30:13,625 --> 00:30:16,265 means that we've developed ways to not only 773 00:30:16,265 --> 00:30:19,380 move the information around, but to also transduce 774 00:30:19,519 --> 00:30:21,380 it from one medium to the other. 775 00:30:21,839 --> 00:30:23,920 And here you can think about the idea 776 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,880 that if I've stored some information in the 777 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:28,660 electronic spin of a material, 778 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,220 but I wanna somehow move that information 779 00:30:31,599 --> 00:30:32,900 over to the 780 00:30:35,144 --> 00:30:37,545 electronic spin of an ion that's been trapped 781 00:30:37,545 --> 00:30:39,164 in a quantum computer somewhere, 782 00:30:39,545 --> 00:30:41,325 I have to have some way of transducing 783 00:30:42,025 --> 00:30:44,845 the information into, let's say, an optical carrier, 784 00:30:45,704 --> 00:30:48,265 that can move the information from one location 785 00:30:48,265 --> 00:30:48,869 to the other. 786 00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:51,430 That's all very technical sounding, but what I'm 787 00:30:51,430 --> 00:30:52,650 trying to say is that 788 00:30:53,109 --> 00:30:53,769 the ability 789 00:30:54,150 --> 00:30:57,109 to move quantum information from one location to 790 00:30:57,109 --> 00:30:57,609 another 791 00:30:57,990 --> 00:30:59,029 has very many, 792 00:30:59,430 --> 00:31:01,005 technology demands on it 793 00:31:01,484 --> 00:31:02,944 in addition to the fact 794 00:31:03,325 --> 00:31:06,625 that we already have a very well developed 795 00:31:06,684 --> 00:31:08,464 and well supported infrastructure 796 00:31:09,404 --> 00:31:10,625 that needs to accommodate 797 00:31:11,085 --> 00:31:12,384 those types of new technologies. 798 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,299 Here at Oak Ridge, we have a specific 799 00:31:15,359 --> 00:31:17,440 interest in how can we use our existing 800 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:17,940 infrastructure 801 00:31:19,039 --> 00:31:22,019 and build upon that to create this hybrid 802 00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:23,059 quantum ecosystem. 803 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,659 We currently have the Department of Energy's 804 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:28,819 largest fiber based network, 805 00:31:29,224 --> 00:31:31,785 over 300 kilometers of fiber that can be 806 00:31:31,785 --> 00:31:32,285 used 807 00:31:32,664 --> 00:31:35,644 for testing and evaluating transmission protocols. 808 00:31:36,105 --> 00:31:37,805 These are using some of the same, 809 00:31:40,744 --> 00:31:42,825 sources and transmitters that we would use for, 810 00:31:42,825 --> 00:31:43,964 say, sensor development. 811 00:31:44,630 --> 00:31:47,190 But now we can channel them into the 812 00:31:47,190 --> 00:31:48,970 transmission across long distances. 813 00:31:49,670 --> 00:31:52,170 That allows us to create a distributed network 814 00:31:52,470 --> 00:31:54,870 where sensors are in one location, computers are 815 00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:57,190 in another, perhaps the end user is in 816 00:31:57,190 --> 00:31:59,775 a third, And that type of hybrid environment, 817 00:31:59,775 --> 00:32:02,194 that hybrid infrastructure becomes very important 818 00:32:02,575 --> 00:32:03,634 to thinking about 819 00:32:04,095 --> 00:32:06,835 what does a future laboratory look like 820 00:32:07,134 --> 00:32:09,634 that is fully integrated with quantum technology. 821 00:32:10,255 --> 00:32:11,855 What are all of the pieces that have 822 00:32:11,855 --> 00:32:13,634 to come together, they have to converge 823 00:32:14,069 --> 00:32:16,490 in order to support that type of infrastructure? 824 00:32:17,509 --> 00:32:19,210 So our our work developing, 825 00:32:19,589 --> 00:32:20,309 fiber based, 826 00:32:20,789 --> 00:32:23,990 communication systems, this type of quantum Internet is 827 00:32:23,990 --> 00:32:26,009 an important part of, that development. 828 00:32:27,829 --> 00:32:30,134 I see. And and finally, Travis, I'd like 829 00:32:30,134 --> 00:32:32,615 you to, to get out your quantum crystal 830 00:32:32,615 --> 00:32:33,115 ball 831 00:32:33,575 --> 00:32:35,835 and maybe have a look in the future 832 00:32:36,294 --> 00:32:38,075 at quantum science and technology 833 00:32:38,375 --> 00:32:40,934 at Oak Ridge. What, what what do you 834 00:32:40,934 --> 00:32:42,500 see coming up in 835 00:32:43,839 --> 00:32:46,420 the near future and I suppose further ahead? 836 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:47,220 Are there any 837 00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:49,599 exciting projects that are being planned at the 838 00:32:49,599 --> 00:32:50,099 moment? 839 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,619 Is ground being broken on any new facilities? 840 00:32:53,759 --> 00:32:55,440 What can we look forward to from Oak 841 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:56,984 Ridge and in the quantum world? 842 00:32:59,605 --> 00:33:02,484 You know, the past five years have been 843 00:33:02,484 --> 00:33:06,005 a series of remarkable advances in quantum science 844 00:33:06,005 --> 00:33:06,664 and technology, 845 00:33:06,964 --> 00:33:08,884 both at Oak Ridge and, I would say, 846 00:33:08,884 --> 00:33:10,664 more broadly around the planet. 847 00:33:11,450 --> 00:33:12,349 What is 848 00:33:12,730 --> 00:33:15,210 very exciting, though, is that we have only 849 00:33:15,210 --> 00:33:18,750 seen the pace of innovation and development increase 850 00:33:19,130 --> 00:33:22,009 over these five years. So I anticipate that 851 00:33:22,009 --> 00:33:24,089 the next five years is going to see 852 00:33:24,089 --> 00:33:25,710 that increase even further. 853 00:33:26,184 --> 00:33:28,744 We will see technology scale up. We will 854 00:33:28,744 --> 00:33:30,424 see the number of qubits that are being 855 00:33:30,424 --> 00:33:31,565 developed become, 856 00:33:32,184 --> 00:33:32,684 larger, 857 00:33:33,065 --> 00:33:33,805 higher fidelity, 858 00:33:34,184 --> 00:33:34,664 better, 859 00:33:35,305 --> 00:33:36,525 integrated, more sophisticated 860 00:33:36,825 --> 00:33:37,325 operations. 861 00:33:38,105 --> 00:33:38,605 That 862 00:33:38,904 --> 00:33:41,609 course opens us up to a whole new 863 00:33:41,609 --> 00:33:44,730 set of products and services, including quantum computers 864 00:33:44,730 --> 00:33:47,149 that can start to routinely reach 865 00:33:47,450 --> 00:33:49,929 what we would call quantum advantage, you know, 866 00:33:49,929 --> 00:33:50,429 surpassing 867 00:33:50,970 --> 00:33:52,809 the best calculations that we think we can 868 00:33:52,809 --> 00:33:55,325 do today with high performance computing systems. 869 00:33:56,105 --> 00:33:56,845 In addition, 870 00:33:57,224 --> 00:33:59,224 as we start to integrate these types of 871 00:33:59,224 --> 00:33:59,724 capabilities 872 00:34:00,025 --> 00:34:01,164 into our infrastructure, 873 00:34:01,945 --> 00:34:03,404 we'll see that convergence 874 00:34:03,865 --> 00:34:06,285 of the quantum and classical ideas occur 875 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,280 so that we can think about quantum high 876 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,280 performance computers or quantum sensors connecting into these 877 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:14,179 quantum computers 878 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,039 and, of course, the security overall of that, 879 00:34:17,359 --> 00:34:20,340 network by using these quantum transmission protocols. 880 00:34:21,164 --> 00:34:23,164 Here at Oak Ridge, we've got the Quantum 881 00:34:23,164 --> 00:34:25,644 Science Center, which is going up for another 882 00:34:25,644 --> 00:34:27,025 five years of activity. 883 00:34:27,405 --> 00:34:29,485 We've got the Q Cup program that only 884 00:34:29,485 --> 00:34:31,005 continues to grow its, 885 00:34:31,485 --> 00:34:32,545 its user base. 886 00:34:33,179 --> 00:34:35,760 All of that is being supported by a 887 00:34:35,820 --> 00:34:37,519 recently opened building, 888 00:34:37,900 --> 00:34:41,199 called the Translational Research Capability Building or TRC. 889 00:34:41,900 --> 00:34:44,219 That building has actually been developed over the 890 00:34:44,219 --> 00:34:45,599 the last several years 891 00:34:45,914 --> 00:34:47,375 to specifically house, 892 00:34:48,315 --> 00:34:51,035 the very sensitive instruments and experiments that we 893 00:34:51,035 --> 00:34:52,175 wanna do in quantum 894 00:34:53,434 --> 00:34:56,635 materials, quantum optics, quantum computing, all of these 895 00:34:56,635 --> 00:34:57,535 different areas. 896 00:34:58,110 --> 00:35:00,750 So we're already seeing the Department of Energy 897 00:35:00,750 --> 00:35:02,289 and Oak Ridge National Laboratory 898 00:35:02,829 --> 00:35:05,950 make plans for this future convergence of quantum 899 00:35:05,950 --> 00:35:07,809 and and and conventional methods. 900 00:35:08,510 --> 00:35:10,990 But what I think is probably more important 901 00:35:10,990 --> 00:35:11,864 to all of that 902 00:35:12,425 --> 00:35:14,764 mirrors the conversation we had at the beginning 903 00:35:14,905 --> 00:35:16,045 about unique capabilities 904 00:35:16,905 --> 00:35:18,764 and the role that personnel play. 905 00:35:19,465 --> 00:35:22,125 Because the other thing that is most important 906 00:35:22,184 --> 00:35:23,485 in the next five years 907 00:35:23,945 --> 00:35:25,324 is building out partnerships 908 00:35:25,860 --> 00:35:28,500 between industry and academia and the other national 909 00:35:28,500 --> 00:35:29,000 labs 910 00:35:29,539 --> 00:35:30,280 to support 911 00:35:30,660 --> 00:35:32,200 what these types of capabilities 912 00:35:32,820 --> 00:35:34,119 can lead to. 913 00:35:34,579 --> 00:35:37,619 Oak Ridge is especially interested in developing that 914 00:35:37,619 --> 00:35:39,480 type of partnership, that type of network 915 00:35:39,924 --> 00:35:42,085 so that we can amplify the impact that 916 00:35:42,085 --> 00:35:42,744 we have, 917 00:35:43,204 --> 00:35:44,105 both in terms 918 00:35:44,885 --> 00:35:46,885 of how do we create the technology, how 919 00:35:46,885 --> 00:35:49,065 do we overcome these scientific challenges, 920 00:35:49,525 --> 00:35:51,525 but also in terms of the adoption of 921 00:35:51,525 --> 00:35:54,480 that technology and its application to what I 922 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,260 would consider real world 923 00:35:56,559 --> 00:35:57,300 use cases, 924 00:35:57,679 --> 00:36:01,139 scientific discovery, economic advantage, and national security. 925 00:36:01,519 --> 00:36:03,039 All of these will continue to be a 926 00:36:03,039 --> 00:36:05,440 priority over the the next five years, the 927 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:06,179 next decade, 928 00:36:06,714 --> 00:36:09,454 And it will be a very exciting experience 929 00:36:09,835 --> 00:36:11,375 to watch the transformations 930 00:36:11,675 --> 00:36:12,494 that are happening, 931 00:36:12,795 --> 00:36:14,474 not just here at Oak Ridge, but around 932 00:36:14,474 --> 00:36:15,135 the world 933 00:36:15,514 --> 00:36:18,734 in the development, the maturity, and the breakthroughs, 934 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,500 in this this particular field. 935 00:36:22,119 --> 00:36:24,619 Well, that's great. That sounds very exciting and 936 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,680 lots of work to be done by you 937 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,840 and your colleagues, which is which is good 938 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:29,340 news. 939 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,800 So thanks, Travis. Thanks so much for coming 940 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,404 on the podcast and talking to us about 941 00:36:34,404 --> 00:36:37,045 all things quantum at the Oak Ridge National 942 00:36:37,045 --> 00:36:39,304 Lab. Thank you, Hamish. It's been a pleasure. 943 00:36:47,340 --> 00:36:49,180 I'm afraid that's all the time we have 944 00:36:49,180 --> 00:36:51,900 for this week's podcast, which is supported by 945 00:36:51,900 --> 00:36:53,039 American Elements. 946 00:36:53,500 --> 00:36:56,539 Thanks to Travis Humble for his insights into 947 00:36:56,539 --> 00:36:58,239 quantum research and development 948 00:36:58,619 --> 00:37:01,605 at Oak Ridge National Lab, and a special 949 00:37:01,605 --> 00:37:02,824 thanks to our producer, 950 00:37:03,204 --> 00:37:04,105 Fred Isles. 951 00:37:12,644 --> 00:37:14,985 This podcast is brought to you by American 952 00:37:15,125 --> 00:37:15,625 Elements, 953 00:37:16,150 --> 00:37:17,289 the world's leading 954 00:37:17,590 --> 00:37:19,210 manufacturer of engineered 955 00:37:19,590 --> 00:37:21,050 and advanced materials. 956 00:37:21,750 --> 00:37:24,889 With a catalog of over 35,000 957 00:37:25,030 --> 00:37:26,010 products available 958 00:37:26,309 --> 00:37:29,050 in both industrial bulk and laboratory 959 00:37:29,510 --> 00:37:30,010 quantities, 960 00:37:30,835 --> 00:37:34,114 American Elements is the largest supplier of its 961 00:37:34,114 --> 00:37:34,614 kind. 962 00:37:35,235 --> 00:37:37,974 For more than twenty five years, its research 963 00:37:38,035 --> 00:37:39,574 and development programs 964 00:37:39,875 --> 00:37:41,494 have been a vital resource 965 00:37:41,795 --> 00:37:42,614 for innovation 966 00:37:42,914 --> 00:37:43,815 across corporate, 967 00:37:44,300 --> 00:37:46,400 government, and academic sectors. 968 00:37:47,179 --> 00:37:49,199 The company's ability to scale 969 00:37:49,500 --> 00:37:50,000 laboratory 970 00:37:50,380 --> 00:37:50,880 breakthroughs 971 00:37:51,340 --> 00:37:52,880 to industrial production 972 00:37:53,260 --> 00:37:56,239 has contributed to many of the most significant 973 00:37:56,780 --> 00:37:57,280 technological 974 00:37:57,900 --> 00:37:58,400 advancements 975 00:37:59,015 --> 00:38:00,394 since 1990, 976 00:38:00,934 --> 00:38:01,434 including 977 00:38:01,815 --> 00:38:02,795 LED lighting, 978 00:38:03,175 --> 00:38:03,675 smartphones, 979 00:38:04,135 --> 00:38:05,434 and electric vehicles. 980 00:38:06,055 --> 00:38:07,675 To learn more, visit 981 00:38:07,974 --> 00:38:12,795 www.americanelements.com. 982 00:38:13,299 --> 00:38:14,359 American Elements. 983 00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:16,119 Now invent.