1 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,519 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly 2 00:00:11,519 --> 00:00:12,019 podcast. 3 00:00:12,484 --> 00:00:13,865 I'm Hamish Johnston. 4 00:00:15,044 --> 00:00:17,945 In this episode, we meet Sarah Alderweireld, 5 00:00:18,484 --> 00:00:21,285 who is a physicist working on the ATLAS 6 00:00:21,285 --> 00:00:22,904 experiment at CERN, 7 00:00:23,445 --> 00:00:26,980 the world famous physics lab that straddles the 8 00:00:26,980 --> 00:00:30,100 Swiss French border and is home to the 9 00:00:30,100 --> 00:00:31,720 Large Hadron Collider 10 00:00:32,100 --> 00:00:33,079 or LHC. 11 00:00:34,260 --> 00:00:34,920 The podcast 12 00:00:35,219 --> 00:00:35,719 explores 13 00:00:36,100 --> 00:00:38,119 how the huge ATLAS detector 14 00:00:38,945 --> 00:00:41,765 is used to study the high energy collisions 15 00:00:42,064 --> 00:00:43,045 of protons 16 00:00:43,424 --> 00:00:44,325 and sometimes 17 00:00:44,704 --> 00:00:45,685 lead ions 18 00:00:46,145 --> 00:00:47,045 at the LHC. 19 00:00:48,225 --> 00:00:51,445 In conversation with Physics World's Margaret Harris, 20 00:00:52,170 --> 00:00:55,710 Sarah explains how physicists deal with the vast 21 00:00:55,769 --> 00:00:56,989 amounts of information 22 00:00:57,609 --> 00:00:58,909 produced by ATLAS. 23 00:00:59,689 --> 00:01:03,070 Margaret and Sarah also chat about the ongoing 24 00:01:03,609 --> 00:01:04,430 high luminosity 25 00:01:04,969 --> 00:01:06,590 upgrade to the LHC 26 00:01:07,115 --> 00:01:08,094 and its experiments, 27 00:01:08,875 --> 00:01:11,534 which will be finished in 2030. 28 00:01:12,155 --> 00:01:14,954 And they also talk about the challenges and 29 00:01:14,954 --> 00:01:15,454 rewards 30 00:01:15,915 --> 00:01:18,734 of working on a very long term 31 00:01:19,275 --> 00:01:20,495 scientific project. 32 00:01:21,109 --> 00:01:22,489 Here's that conversation. 33 00:01:31,270 --> 00:01:32,969 My guest today is Sarah Aldoworlds, 34 00:01:33,275 --> 00:01:35,194 a postdoc at the University of Edinburgh in 35 00:01:35,194 --> 00:01:37,215 Scotland and a member of the ATLAS collaboration 36 00:01:37,275 --> 00:01:39,694 at CERN, the European particle physics laboratory. 37 00:01:40,314 --> 00:01:41,935 Hello, Sarah. Welcome to the podcast. 38 00:01:42,474 --> 00:01:42,974 Hello. 39 00:01:44,075 --> 00:01:46,094 Perhaps you could begin by telling our listeners 40 00:01:46,540 --> 00:01:48,859 what ATLAS does and what your role is 41 00:01:48,859 --> 00:01:49,599 within that. 42 00:01:50,700 --> 00:01:53,359 So ATLAS is a large detector 43 00:01:53,739 --> 00:01:55,519 at the Large Hadron Collider, 44 00:01:55,819 --> 00:01:58,640 which is built as a general purpose experiment. 45 00:01:59,974 --> 00:02:02,795 And we try to zoom in on interesting 46 00:02:03,174 --> 00:02:05,734 collision events that are happening when the LHC 47 00:02:05,734 --> 00:02:06,394 is on, 48 00:02:06,694 --> 00:02:09,275 in order to study both our understanding 49 00:02:09,655 --> 00:02:12,240 of the standard model of particle physics and 50 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,400 look beyond it to see if we can 51 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,180 find signs of new physics. 52 00:02:17,039 --> 00:02:18,800 And what's your role within that? Because ATLAS 53 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:20,560 is a really big collaboration. It's got hundreds 54 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,199 of physicists working on it. Absolutely. It's even 55 00:02:23,199 --> 00:02:23,699 thousands. 56 00:02:24,385 --> 00:02:26,724 I am in my current role as postdoc 57 00:02:27,025 --> 00:02:28,645 working on several analysis, 58 00:02:29,344 --> 00:02:30,965 mostly in the searches area. 59 00:02:31,825 --> 00:02:34,224 And I also work on the detector as 60 00:02:34,224 --> 00:02:35,284 a trigger expert, 61 00:02:35,665 --> 00:02:36,784 which deals with, 62 00:02:37,269 --> 00:02:40,069 the decision making life as the collisions are 63 00:02:40,069 --> 00:02:40,569 happening 64 00:02:41,110 --> 00:02:43,750 to decide which ones we record and which 65 00:02:43,750 --> 00:02:45,669 ones we give up on because we don't 66 00:02:45,669 --> 00:02:47,610 have the bandwidth to study everything. 67 00:02:48,229 --> 00:02:50,789 And then in parallel with those two hands 68 00:02:50,789 --> 00:02:52,414 on efforts, I'm also a coordinator 69 00:02:53,034 --> 00:02:54,735 for the Higgs multiboson 70 00:02:55,034 --> 00:02:55,694 and supersymmetry 71 00:02:55,995 --> 00:02:59,435 searches group, which is about a 500 sized 72 00:02:59,435 --> 00:03:02,574 subset of people that are all looking into, 73 00:03:02,875 --> 00:03:04,094 searches for new physics. 74 00:03:04,900 --> 00:03:06,980 Yeah. What does searches actually involve? You know, 75 00:03:06,980 --> 00:03:09,300 talk me through what happens when the collider 76 00:03:09,300 --> 00:03:11,300 is operating. You know, what's what's your your 77 00:03:11,300 --> 00:03:12,680 daily work look like? 78 00:03:14,099 --> 00:03:17,780 So when you imagine processes happening in nature, 79 00:03:17,780 --> 00:03:19,939 which are then also the ones that we 80 00:03:19,939 --> 00:03:23,215 can try to create with the the accelerator, 81 00:03:24,634 --> 00:03:25,375 you expect 82 00:03:25,754 --> 00:03:27,375 that certain processes happen 83 00:03:27,995 --> 00:03:30,715 more frequently than others. And we have a 84 00:03:30,715 --> 00:03:33,275 very good description of nature in the standard 85 00:03:33,275 --> 00:03:35,530 model, and so we have a prediction of 86 00:03:35,530 --> 00:03:38,030 how frequently we expect these things to happen. 87 00:03:38,250 --> 00:03:41,310 What the detector then does is testing 88 00:03:41,769 --> 00:03:44,009 whether if we look at the the collisions 89 00:03:44,009 --> 00:03:46,329 we're actually seeing and we analyze them, we 90 00:03:46,329 --> 00:03:48,269 identify them as a certain thing, 91 00:03:48,625 --> 00:03:51,284 whether this matches with the prediction we have. 92 00:03:51,824 --> 00:03:54,164 And in on one hand of the measurements, 93 00:03:54,224 --> 00:03:56,305 we have the very precise measurements of the 94 00:03:56,305 --> 00:03:57,925 standard model where you verify 95 00:03:58,864 --> 00:04:00,405 that you are getting 96 00:04:01,060 --> 00:04:03,139 things right with this prediction. And on the 97 00:04:03,139 --> 00:04:04,739 other hand of the word, there are the 98 00:04:04,739 --> 00:04:05,239 searches 99 00:04:05,620 --> 00:04:08,199 for things that lie beyond, because we have 100 00:04:08,419 --> 00:04:11,219 signs from, for example, astrophysics as well, that 101 00:04:11,219 --> 00:04:12,599 there are things in nature 102 00:04:12,900 --> 00:04:15,699 connected to dark matter or tensions in other 103 00:04:15,699 --> 00:04:16,185 areas, 104 00:04:16,504 --> 00:04:18,185 where there has to be a little bit 105 00:04:18,185 --> 00:04:20,504 more than we have in our standard mobile 106 00:04:20,504 --> 00:04:21,004 prediction. 107 00:04:21,625 --> 00:04:25,305 And then from small deviations in places or 108 00:04:25,305 --> 00:04:25,805 maybe 109 00:04:26,665 --> 00:04:27,564 tough to catch 110 00:04:28,185 --> 00:04:30,125 patterns in in the detector, 111 00:04:30,504 --> 00:04:32,800 there could be a hint that this has 112 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,279 to have an explanation in new physics because 113 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,519 if we only had the standard version, it 114 00:04:37,519 --> 00:04:39,519 wouldn't be there. Then what we do is 115 00:04:39,519 --> 00:04:42,660 on one hand, we optimize the detector to 116 00:04:42,959 --> 00:04:45,759 be as as thoroughly covering as possible in 117 00:04:45,759 --> 00:04:47,379 all of these potential signatures 118 00:04:48,045 --> 00:04:50,524 and then record the data. And then when 119 00:04:50,524 --> 00:04:52,685 we have the data, often these things happen 120 00:04:52,685 --> 00:04:55,245 in parallel on, like, the previous set while 121 00:04:55,245 --> 00:04:56,705 you work on the next one, 122 00:04:57,324 --> 00:04:58,625 you develop algorithms, 123 00:04:59,165 --> 00:05:00,705 classic ones, but also 124 00:05:01,245 --> 00:05:03,139 using modern techniques to 125 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:04,980 zoom in on 126 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,680 what is in this dataset. You put your 127 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:08,180 prediction, 128 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,800 we call this the background, and then you 129 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,120 look at the the signatures that you could 130 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:14,834 potentially see on top of this. 131 00:05:15,634 --> 00:05:17,894 And then we make the the statistical prediction 132 00:05:18,274 --> 00:05:20,995 of, how well these things agree. And as 133 00:05:20,995 --> 00:05:22,995 soon as you find something that doesn't agree, 134 00:05:22,995 --> 00:05:24,375 that's when it gets exciting. 135 00:05:25,634 --> 00:05:28,149 Now you talk about seeing and searches, but 136 00:05:28,149 --> 00:05:29,990 it's actually been a long time since people 137 00:05:29,990 --> 00:05:32,229 were literally seeing what's happened in a particle 138 00:05:32,229 --> 00:05:33,829 collider. You know, you had the cloud chamber 139 00:05:33,829 --> 00:05:35,589 days where you could see particle traces and 140 00:05:35,589 --> 00:05:36,089 collisions. 141 00:05:36,550 --> 00:05:38,310 What does it involve to, you know, sort 142 00:05:38,310 --> 00:05:40,389 of say, oh, that event is interesting. Let's 143 00:05:40,389 --> 00:05:41,910 let's look at that one. Let's save that 144 00:05:41,910 --> 00:05:43,754 event. How does that process work? 145 00:05:44,875 --> 00:05:47,274 This gets back to the the trigger work 146 00:05:47,274 --> 00:05:48,175 I was mentioning 147 00:05:48,875 --> 00:05:49,375 where, 148 00:05:49,754 --> 00:05:52,475 for the ATLAS detector, this happens in several 149 00:05:52,475 --> 00:05:55,274 phases. You have the level one system and 150 00:05:55,274 --> 00:05:57,800 the higher level trigger system, and then offline 151 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,060 processing can continue a bit more even. 152 00:06:00,439 --> 00:06:00,939 And 153 00:06:01,479 --> 00:06:04,279 in the level one system, you use custom 154 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,560 hardware because you have to take decisions ultra 155 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:08,060 fast, 156 00:06:08,519 --> 00:06:10,439 and it's so fast that you don't even 157 00:06:10,439 --> 00:06:12,455 have time to read out all of the 158 00:06:12,455 --> 00:06:14,615 information that is in the detector. You just 159 00:06:14,615 --> 00:06:17,175 take crucial parts of it that help you 160 00:06:17,175 --> 00:06:19,415 in this decision making. You make a first 161 00:06:19,415 --> 00:06:19,915 decision. 162 00:06:20,455 --> 00:06:22,154 And then in the second step, 163 00:06:22,935 --> 00:06:24,634 say something was really energetic 164 00:06:25,014 --> 00:06:25,620 and it had 165 00:06:26,579 --> 00:06:29,240 two object flying in two different directions, 166 00:06:30,419 --> 00:06:30,919 and, 167 00:06:31,220 --> 00:06:33,220 that matches one of the things we're interested 168 00:06:33,220 --> 00:06:34,979 in. And you can zoom in on those 169 00:06:34,979 --> 00:06:38,100 blobs and look at the precision around them 170 00:06:38,100 --> 00:06:40,819 in this second layer of trigger algorithms which 171 00:06:40,819 --> 00:06:41,564 happens in 172 00:06:42,125 --> 00:06:43,964 software, and that then gives you the more 173 00:06:43,964 --> 00:06:46,845 precise decision, which can allow you to filter 174 00:06:46,845 --> 00:06:49,245 better again which events you really want to 175 00:06:49,245 --> 00:06:51,805 keep, and those then get passed on for, 176 00:06:52,205 --> 00:06:53,185 offline analysis. 177 00:06:53,970 --> 00:06:55,509 And in that same process, 178 00:06:56,050 --> 00:06:58,770 we also run the algorithms that try to 179 00:06:58,770 --> 00:06:59,270 identify 180 00:06:59,970 --> 00:07:01,970 the different elements of a collision that we 181 00:07:01,970 --> 00:07:03,650 know. So you can try to find the 182 00:07:03,650 --> 00:07:05,745 electrons, and you can try to find, 183 00:07:06,464 --> 00:07:09,444 the heavier particles, maybe the standard model bosons. 184 00:07:09,985 --> 00:07:12,944 And, actually, in connection to how in the 185 00:07:12,944 --> 00:07:15,104 past things happened with the bubble chamber and 186 00:07:15,104 --> 00:07:16,805 we actually looked at the snapshot, 187 00:07:17,264 --> 00:07:19,584 now in the software, we also have ways 188 00:07:19,584 --> 00:07:22,529 to visualize this. And we're talking about data 189 00:07:22,529 --> 00:07:23,509 analysis with 190 00:07:23,970 --> 00:07:25,970 numbers of events that is way too large 191 00:07:25,970 --> 00:07:27,669 to manually look at everyone 192 00:07:28,209 --> 00:07:28,709 individually. 193 00:07:29,250 --> 00:07:31,490 But if we're interested in a particular one, 194 00:07:31,490 --> 00:07:33,490 we can visualize it and bring this up 195 00:07:33,490 --> 00:07:35,169 and actually zoom into it and look at 196 00:07:35,169 --> 00:07:35,990 it as well. 197 00:07:36,850 --> 00:07:38,985 What are some of the specific events that 198 00:07:38,985 --> 00:07:40,824 you're you're looking for that you would get 199 00:07:40,824 --> 00:07:42,365 really excited if you saw? 200 00:07:43,144 --> 00:07:45,805 So personally, I'm a supersymmetry expert. 201 00:07:46,665 --> 00:07:48,125 And the idea of supersymmetry 202 00:07:48,584 --> 00:07:50,904 is that, if you take all of the 203 00:07:50,904 --> 00:07:53,899 standard model particles we know, there would be 204 00:07:53,899 --> 00:07:56,399 an a duplicate set of supersymmetric 205 00:07:56,779 --> 00:07:58,860 particles, and they all line up one to 206 00:07:58,860 --> 00:08:00,319 one with some 207 00:08:00,620 --> 00:08:03,419 parameter changes, of course. And this could then 208 00:08:03,419 --> 00:08:06,865 explain various open questions that we have, about 209 00:08:06,865 --> 00:08:08,084 how the world works. 210 00:08:08,464 --> 00:08:08,964 And 211 00:08:09,584 --> 00:08:11,524 because this is quite a well developed 212 00:08:11,904 --> 00:08:14,784 theory model, it also allows to to make 213 00:08:14,784 --> 00:08:15,284 predictions 214 00:08:16,224 --> 00:08:18,689 of what these signatures would look like, if 215 00:08:18,689 --> 00:08:19,669 they were there. 216 00:08:20,050 --> 00:08:21,889 And a lot of them go hand in 217 00:08:21,889 --> 00:08:24,229 hand with something we call missing 218 00:08:24,689 --> 00:08:25,669 transverse energy. 219 00:08:26,289 --> 00:08:28,449 Because when you have a collision in the 220 00:08:28,449 --> 00:08:30,289 detector or you you have a collision and 221 00:08:30,289 --> 00:08:31,669 you record it with a detector, 222 00:08:32,575 --> 00:08:34,414 energy that comes in also has to go 223 00:08:34,414 --> 00:08:38,095 out. And because our detector is constructed to 224 00:08:38,095 --> 00:08:40,914 be all covering or as much as possible, 225 00:08:41,695 --> 00:08:43,855 if you have things flying in two directions, 226 00:08:43,855 --> 00:08:45,480 those factors have to sum up. 227 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,019 And if they don't, then something is missing, 228 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,500 and this missing thing could be an invisible 229 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:52,059 particle. 230 00:08:52,519 --> 00:08:54,839 And there are some particles in in the 231 00:08:54,839 --> 00:08:57,639 standard mobile version of the world where they 232 00:08:57,639 --> 00:08:59,659 are invisible, but they're usually 233 00:09:00,039 --> 00:09:02,745 not the dominant part of of processes. 234 00:09:04,004 --> 00:09:06,804 In the under standard model physics, you have 235 00:09:06,804 --> 00:09:08,725 many more particles that could be a lot 236 00:09:08,725 --> 00:09:12,424 heavier that might have interactions that aren't typically 237 00:09:12,565 --> 00:09:16,059 visible in our detector because they don't interact 238 00:09:16,059 --> 00:09:18,379 with materials in the same way, and they 239 00:09:18,379 --> 00:09:19,759 would leave much larger 240 00:09:20,379 --> 00:09:23,100 amounts of missing energy in our sums. And 241 00:09:23,100 --> 00:09:24,700 so we look for a lot of the 242 00:09:24,700 --> 00:09:26,860 searches, we look for signatures with lots of 243 00:09:26,860 --> 00:09:27,679 missing energy. 244 00:09:29,535 --> 00:09:31,774 Now regular listeners to the podcast may remember 245 00:09:31,774 --> 00:09:33,615 that this is kind of a transition period 246 00:09:33,615 --> 00:09:36,174 for CERN. We had CERN's next director general, 247 00:09:36,174 --> 00:09:38,654 Mark Thompson, on the podcast in January talking 248 00:09:38,654 --> 00:09:40,835 about plans for the lab's long term future. 249 00:09:41,339 --> 00:09:43,259 And then back at the March, I spoke 250 00:09:43,259 --> 00:09:45,019 about visiting CERN, and you were one of 251 00:09:45,019 --> 00:09:46,720 my tour guides on my visit, actually, 252 00:09:47,100 --> 00:09:48,860 and just learning about plans for the next 253 00:09:48,860 --> 00:09:50,879 upgrade of the the Large Hadron Collider. 254 00:09:51,419 --> 00:09:53,179 What's it like to work at CERN during 255 00:09:53,179 --> 00:09:54,799 this this sort of period of transition? 256 00:09:55,914 --> 00:09:58,394 This is an absolutely exciting time to be 257 00:09:58,394 --> 00:10:00,014 here because it's 258 00:10:01,514 --> 00:10:03,914 wonderful to be able to be not only 259 00:10:03,914 --> 00:10:06,235 in one aspect of high energy physics, which 260 00:10:06,235 --> 00:10:08,735 is already cool in itself, but actually 261 00:10:09,035 --> 00:10:10,794 three or even more parts. And when I 262 00:10:10,794 --> 00:10:13,789 say three, I'm thinking of, on one hand, 263 00:10:15,129 --> 00:10:16,350 we have data 264 00:10:16,730 --> 00:10:18,970 that has been recorded over the past ten 265 00:10:18,970 --> 00:10:20,110 ish years of LHC, 266 00:10:20,809 --> 00:10:21,709 and we can 267 00:10:22,009 --> 00:10:24,329 make analysis with it and learn more about 268 00:10:24,329 --> 00:10:24,825 physics. 269 00:10:25,625 --> 00:10:27,644 And then in a second element, 270 00:10:28,105 --> 00:10:29,965 we have plans for the next 271 00:10:31,065 --> 00:10:31,884 n years. 272 00:10:32,264 --> 00:10:34,345 It continues quite far, but let's start with 273 00:10:34,345 --> 00:10:36,345 the first part, the phase two upgrade for 274 00:10:36,345 --> 00:10:38,044 the high luminosity LHC. 275 00:10:38,539 --> 00:10:41,579 This will start happening quite soon with the 276 00:10:41,579 --> 00:10:44,139 long shutdown in which we turn things off 277 00:10:44,139 --> 00:10:46,539 and we make quite sizable upgrades to the 278 00:10:46,539 --> 00:10:47,039 detectors. 279 00:10:49,100 --> 00:10:51,659 This means that these detectors have been in 280 00:10:51,659 --> 00:10:52,720 design for 281 00:10:53,204 --> 00:10:55,204 a number of years already. And right now, 282 00:10:55,204 --> 00:10:58,084 we're actually starting to get the components that 283 00:10:58,084 --> 00:11:00,424 are the final ones and putting these together. 284 00:11:01,044 --> 00:11:03,784 Some examples, for example, are currently coming together 285 00:11:03,845 --> 00:11:06,500 in, like, the big development hall next to 286 00:11:06,500 --> 00:11:08,600 where the detector sits above ground. 287 00:11:08,980 --> 00:11:11,059 We get to work on those, test that 288 00:11:11,059 --> 00:11:13,700 it all comes together correctly. It works on 289 00:11:13,700 --> 00:11:14,839 the surface level. 290 00:11:15,299 --> 00:11:15,959 And then 291 00:11:16,580 --> 00:11:19,139 once these come together, they will go down 292 00:11:19,139 --> 00:11:19,959 to the detector, 293 00:11:20,475 --> 00:11:22,475 and then get put to use. That's the 294 00:11:22,475 --> 00:11:23,774 the actual hands on 295 00:11:24,235 --> 00:11:25,534 building the detector. 296 00:11:26,315 --> 00:11:29,294 And I said the upgrade continues very long. 297 00:11:30,075 --> 00:11:32,634 Even beyond this upgrade, we're thinking about the 298 00:11:32,634 --> 00:11:35,514 next ones already, and this then involves detector 299 00:11:35,514 --> 00:11:38,529 design and thinking about what technology will be 300 00:11:38,529 --> 00:11:40,690 available and how can we use it to 301 00:11:40,690 --> 00:11:42,950 to make the best possible detectors in future. 302 00:11:43,330 --> 00:11:46,070 And so these three phases really bring together 303 00:11:46,210 --> 00:11:47,190 all of the possibilities 304 00:11:47,970 --> 00:11:48,470 for 305 00:11:49,330 --> 00:11:50,355 research in physics. 306 00:11:50,914 --> 00:11:51,414 And 307 00:11:52,834 --> 00:11:54,834 it goes in cycles. And right now, it 308 00:11:54,834 --> 00:11:56,674 just happens to be one where you really 309 00:11:56,674 --> 00:11:58,754 get hands on connection to to all of 310 00:11:58,754 --> 00:11:59,414 the parts. 311 00:12:00,514 --> 00:12:03,235 What are the biggest challenges associated with these 312 00:12:03,235 --> 00:12:04,695 tasks, particularly with the upgrade? 313 00:12:06,230 --> 00:12:09,190 Timelines are always a a tricky thing, especially 314 00:12:09,190 --> 00:12:11,929 because they are so extended. And you need 315 00:12:12,070 --> 00:12:14,809 experts of many different types. Like, we need 316 00:12:15,029 --> 00:12:16,409 engineers. We need 317 00:12:17,429 --> 00:12:20,514 people who understand the physics to to connect 318 00:12:20,514 --> 00:12:22,514 with the engineers and say, like, okay. Yes. 319 00:12:22,514 --> 00:12:25,795 That is high techno high important technology, but 320 00:12:25,795 --> 00:12:28,595 it might not do exactly what it is 321 00:12:28,595 --> 00:12:30,935 we are interested in zooming in and on. 322 00:12:31,154 --> 00:12:34,409 We also need students to be there to 323 00:12:34,409 --> 00:12:36,330 learn some of these things so that it 324 00:12:36,330 --> 00:12:37,070 can continue, 325 00:12:37,850 --> 00:12:39,690 later on. Then you need people who are 326 00:12:39,690 --> 00:12:42,190 in touch with outside who 327 00:12:42,809 --> 00:12:43,309 get 328 00:12:44,009 --> 00:12:46,750 to see how maybe data analysis algorithms 329 00:12:47,125 --> 00:12:49,605 or detector technology gets to evolve also in 330 00:12:49,605 --> 00:12:52,485 other places and keep feeding that into what 331 00:12:52,485 --> 00:12:53,945 we are doing right here. 332 00:12:54,965 --> 00:12:57,045 So it really brings together a a lot 333 00:12:57,045 --> 00:12:57,625 of people. 334 00:12:58,165 --> 00:12:59,764 And that's also one of the things that 335 00:12:59,764 --> 00:13:02,200 makes the CERN campus a very interesting place 336 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,600 to be because it actually has good seeding 337 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,779 ground here to come together like that. 338 00:13:07,399 --> 00:13:09,399 You're an early career researcher. So, you know, 339 00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:11,240 maybe in contrast to some of the lab's 340 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,480 senior leadership, you're likely to be around not 341 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,040 only for the HiLumie upgrade, but for whatever 342 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,024 comes after that and even beyond, as you 343 00:13:18,024 --> 00:13:19,325 say, the next n years. 344 00:13:19,945 --> 00:13:21,625 What are your thoughts about that? Do you 345 00:13:21,625 --> 00:13:23,945 think that far ahead? You're just more head 346 00:13:23,945 --> 00:13:25,965 down, focused on the immediate task? 347 00:13:27,065 --> 00:13:28,985 I think there are two parts to that. 348 00:13:28,985 --> 00:13:29,965 On one hand, 349 00:13:30,779 --> 00:13:33,100 also because nothing is ever guaranteed in this 350 00:13:33,100 --> 00:13:33,600 field, 351 00:13:34,139 --> 00:13:36,299 you do want to focus on the now 352 00:13:36,299 --> 00:13:38,220 and see what you can do now and 353 00:13:38,220 --> 00:13:39,919 and do the best you can. 354 00:13:40,539 --> 00:13:41,980 But on the other hand, I think if 355 00:13:41,980 --> 00:13:44,620 you stick around in in any research field 356 00:13:44,620 --> 00:13:45,524 for long enough, 357 00:13:46,085 --> 00:13:48,165 you start to see the bigger picture and 358 00:13:48,165 --> 00:13:49,684 you do want to be a part of 359 00:13:49,684 --> 00:13:52,585 it, and you have the ideas of 360 00:13:52,965 --> 00:13:55,445 this might work better than that. I can 361 00:13:55,445 --> 00:13:58,165 see how globally this evolves, what other people 362 00:13:58,165 --> 00:14:00,480 are interested in, And then it becomes a 363 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,120 puzzle of of bringing together and chipping in, 364 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,040 like, the little bits where I maybe am 365 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:05,700 the expert. 366 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:06,660 And 367 00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:08,500 I would say 368 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,620 I started thinking about the future already, 369 00:14:12,154 --> 00:14:15,355 say, when becoming a postdoctoral researcher, so after 370 00:14:15,355 --> 00:14:16,575 finishing the PhD. 371 00:14:17,115 --> 00:14:17,615 And 372 00:14:18,394 --> 00:14:21,134 we really are talking long time scales because 373 00:14:21,434 --> 00:14:23,535 if we talk past HLLHC, 374 00:14:23,995 --> 00:14:26,254 I will be close to retirement age. 375 00:14:26,909 --> 00:14:29,070 And that makes it then also connect with 376 00:14:29,070 --> 00:14:32,509 teaching and and mentoring and supervising and and 377 00:14:32,509 --> 00:14:34,690 making sure that the knowledge is spread 378 00:14:35,149 --> 00:14:35,649 because 379 00:14:37,549 --> 00:14:39,389 I can do what I can, and I 380 00:14:39,389 --> 00:14:41,365 would love to continue doing it. But I'm 381 00:14:41,365 --> 00:14:43,445 also very aware that we will need the 382 00:14:43,445 --> 00:14:46,264 next people after that because fundamental research, 383 00:14:47,285 --> 00:14:48,904 does not happen in ten seconds. 384 00:14:49,764 --> 00:14:51,764 Because I guess also with the with just 385 00:14:51,764 --> 00:14:53,764 the process of building a detector, if you 386 00:14:53,764 --> 00:14:55,750 only do it every twenty years, that is 387 00:14:55,750 --> 00:14:58,069 literally generation, and there's a risk that people 388 00:14:58,069 --> 00:14:59,529 will forget how to do it. 389 00:15:00,949 --> 00:15:01,449 Absolutely. 390 00:15:02,389 --> 00:15:02,889 We 391 00:15:03,190 --> 00:15:05,750 see this even on on shorter time scales 392 00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:08,389 as well where you you quite frequently hear, 393 00:15:08,389 --> 00:15:09,129 but documentation 394 00:15:09,509 --> 00:15:10,569 is very important. 395 00:15:11,875 --> 00:15:13,955 And then you find yourself in the control 396 00:15:13,955 --> 00:15:17,475 room with some tricky problem making everything fail. 397 00:15:17,475 --> 00:15:19,394 And you know, like, oh, I've seen this 398 00:15:19,394 --> 00:15:22,034 error before, but why is it doing this 399 00:15:22,034 --> 00:15:22,774 right now? 400 00:15:23,230 --> 00:15:25,309 And you you look at it for half 401 00:15:25,309 --> 00:15:27,470 an hour, an hour, and you're still scratching 402 00:15:27,470 --> 00:15:29,549 your head after going out for a quick 403 00:15:29,549 --> 00:15:30,049 lunch. 404 00:15:30,590 --> 00:15:31,809 And at some point, 405 00:15:32,350 --> 00:15:34,990 some colleague that hasn't been near there in 406 00:15:34,990 --> 00:15:38,085 in in years walks past, asks you what 407 00:15:38,085 --> 00:15:39,845 you're doing, and you tell them and it's 408 00:15:39,845 --> 00:15:40,345 like, 409 00:15:41,125 --> 00:15:42,745 maybe you want to check this. 410 00:15:44,004 --> 00:15:46,504 Lo and behold, this is always the solution. 411 00:15:48,565 --> 00:15:51,625 So, yeah, we do need long term experts, 412 00:15:52,049 --> 00:15:54,129 but also people who are just keen on 413 00:15:54,129 --> 00:15:57,429 on digging into finicky issues and being creative 414 00:15:57,490 --> 00:15:58,389 with the solutions. 415 00:15:59,250 --> 00:16:00,769 Thank you very much for speaking to us, 416 00:16:00,769 --> 00:16:02,370 Sarah. Thank you. It's been great to talk 417 00:16:02,370 --> 00:16:03,029 to you. 418 00:16:03,409 --> 00:16:05,429 Likewise. Thanks for inviting me. 419 00:16:13,215 --> 00:16:14,754 That was Sarah Alderweireld 420 00:16:15,134 --> 00:16:18,495 of the University of Edinburgh in conversation with 421 00:16:18,495 --> 00:16:20,434 Physics World's Margaret Harris. 422 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,019 We're more than halfway through 2025, 423 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,960 which has been declared the International Year of 424 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:28,740 Quantum Science and Technology 425 00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:30,740 by the UN agency 426 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:31,700 UNESCO. 427 00:16:32,559 --> 00:16:34,100 As part of our celebrations 428 00:16:34,399 --> 00:16:37,795 here at Physics World, we've published a 62 429 00:16:37,795 --> 00:16:39,335 page quantum briefing. 430 00:16:40,035 --> 00:16:42,674 The cover of the briefing features a painting 431 00:16:42,674 --> 00:16:46,375 by the physicist turned artist, Felicity Inkpen. 432 00:16:47,154 --> 00:16:49,095 That work is called Qubit's 433 00:16:49,409 --> 00:16:49,909 Duality. 434 00:16:50,450 --> 00:16:52,929 And in a recent episode of the Physics 435 00:16:52,929 --> 00:16:54,389 World Stories podcast, 436 00:16:54,929 --> 00:16:59,089 Felicity shares her journey from academic physics to 437 00:16:59,089 --> 00:17:00,070 the art world, 438 00:17:00,529 --> 00:17:03,110 and talks about the creative process 439 00:17:03,464 --> 00:17:06,924 as she explores the elusive nature of quantum 440 00:17:06,984 --> 00:17:07,484 reality. 441 00:17:08,424 --> 00:17:09,804 Also in that podcast, 442 00:17:10,184 --> 00:17:12,125 Physics World's Tushna Kamasariat 443 00:17:12,825 --> 00:17:15,724 talks about a feature article in the Quantum 444 00:17:15,785 --> 00:17:19,880 Briefing that's called the curious case of quantum 445 00:17:20,179 --> 00:17:21,240 Cheshire cats. 446 00:17:21,779 --> 00:17:23,880 It explores the strange phenomenon 447 00:17:24,419 --> 00:17:25,799 whereby a particle's 448 00:17:26,099 --> 00:17:26,599 properties 449 00:17:27,059 --> 00:17:29,380 seem to be in a different place from 450 00:17:29,380 --> 00:17:30,679 the particle itself, 451 00:17:31,460 --> 00:17:31,960 reminiscent 452 00:17:32,259 --> 00:17:33,399 of Lewis Carroll's 453 00:17:33,914 --> 00:17:34,975 famous feline 454 00:17:35,355 --> 00:17:36,975 in Alice in Wonderland, 455 00:17:37,755 --> 00:17:38,654 whose grin 456 00:17:39,035 --> 00:17:39,535 lingers 457 00:17:39,914 --> 00:17:41,535 even after it's gone. 458 00:17:42,154 --> 00:17:45,134 That episode of the stories podcast is called 459 00:17:45,275 --> 00:17:46,654 painting the unseen, 460 00:17:47,559 --> 00:17:48,059 visualizing 461 00:17:48,519 --> 00:17:51,240 the quantum world. And you can find it 462 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,519 on the physics world website or at your 463 00:17:54,519 --> 00:17:56,299 favorite podcast provider. 464 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,900 And you can read the entire quantum briefing 465 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:01,340 on our website. 466 00:18:02,134 --> 00:18:02,634 Just 467 00:18:03,174 --> 00:18:04,954 click on the magazine tab. 468 00:18:05,494 --> 00:18:07,414 I'm afraid that's all the time we have 469 00:18:07,414 --> 00:18:10,214 for this week's podcast. Thanks to Sarah and 470 00:18:10,214 --> 00:18:11,595 Margaret for a fascinating 471 00:18:11,974 --> 00:18:12,474 conversation, 472 00:18:12,934 --> 00:18:15,494 and a special thanks to our producer, Fred 473 00:18:15,494 --> 00:18:15,994 Isles. 474 00:18:16,500 --> 00:18:19,059 We'll be back again next week. See you 475 00:18:19,059 --> 00:18:19,559 then.