1 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,359 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly 2 00:00:11,359 --> 00:00:11,859 podcast. 3 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:14,660 In this episode, we look at how careers 4 00:00:14,799 --> 00:00:15,619 in science 5 00:00:16,054 --> 00:00:16,875 can be made more 6 00:00:17,495 --> 00:00:17,995 accessible 7 00:00:18,535 --> 00:00:19,995 to people with disabilities. 8 00:00:20,855 --> 00:00:22,394 Our guest is Francesca 9 00:00:22,855 --> 00:00:23,355 DiDato, 10 00:00:23,894 --> 00:00:26,315 who is co author of a white paper 11 00:00:26,535 --> 00:00:28,154 called towards a fully 12 00:00:28,454 --> 00:00:28,954 inclusive 13 00:00:29,414 --> 00:00:29,914 environment 14 00:00:30,460 --> 00:00:32,559 for Disabled People in STEM, 15 00:00:33,179 --> 00:00:35,979 which was published earlier this year by The 16 00:00:35,979 --> 00:00:36,479 UK's 17 00:00:36,859 --> 00:00:38,159 National Association 18 00:00:38,699 --> 00:00:40,719 of Disabled Staff Networks. 19 00:00:41,340 --> 00:00:43,759 A physicist at Lancaster University, 20 00:00:44,565 --> 00:00:46,185 Francesca is in conversation 21 00:00:46,725 --> 00:00:49,065 with Physics World's Michael Banks. 22 00:00:57,310 --> 00:00:59,950 Oh, hi, Frankie. Hi. It's great that you 23 00:00:59,950 --> 00:01:01,710 could join us today on the podcast and 24 00:01:01,710 --> 00:01:03,310 great to have you to talk about this 25 00:01:03,310 --> 00:01:06,770 new important report from The UK's National Association 26 00:01:07,069 --> 00:01:08,770 of Disabled Staff Networks. 27 00:01:09,484 --> 00:01:12,924 So entitled Towards a Fully Inclusive Environment for 28 00:01:12,924 --> 00:01:14,385 Disabled People in STEM, 29 00:01:15,004 --> 00:01:17,744 the report examines the many issues facing disabled 30 00:01:17,805 --> 00:01:18,784 people in science. 31 00:01:19,884 --> 00:01:22,625 Written by the association STEM Action Group, 32 00:01:22,979 --> 00:01:25,060 which consists of people from across The UK 33 00:01:25,060 --> 00:01:27,079 and and across different disciplines, 34 00:01:27,619 --> 00:01:30,420 the report offers solutions to those issues while 35 00:01:30,420 --> 00:01:33,140 at the same time raising awareness of the 36 00:01:33,140 --> 00:01:33,640 inequity 37 00:01:34,019 --> 00:01:34,840 and discrimination 38 00:01:35,859 --> 00:01:38,119 experienced by disabled people in science. 39 00:01:38,944 --> 00:01:41,424 So, Frankie, one thing I was really struck 40 00:01:41,424 --> 00:01:43,204 by when looking through the report 41 00:01:43,584 --> 00:01:45,905 was that while twenty two percent of working 42 00:01:45,905 --> 00:01:47,924 age adults in The UK are disabled, 43 00:01:48,384 --> 00:01:50,384 less than seven percent in science have a 44 00:01:50,384 --> 00:01:50,884 disability. 45 00:01:51,619 --> 00:01:54,019 So what do you think lies behind this 46 00:01:54,019 --> 00:01:54,519 difference? 47 00:01:55,060 --> 00:01:57,619 Okay. There are a number of different factors 48 00:01:57,619 --> 00:01:59,079 that are at play here. 49 00:01:59,459 --> 00:02:02,979 There's firstly, the issues around disclosure, whether someone 50 00:02:02,979 --> 00:02:05,655 feels safe to disclose that they are disabled 51 00:02:05,795 --> 00:02:08,675 or not, especially in the climate that we're 52 00:02:08,675 --> 00:02:11,175 in where there's a lot of negativity 53 00:02:11,634 --> 00:02:13,735 coming out of politics, out of the media, 54 00:02:14,354 --> 00:02:17,094 around people's perceptions, there's society's 55 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,139 perceptions of disabled people, 56 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:21,900 and there's also 57 00:02:22,199 --> 00:02:25,560 the environment within academia itself and people being 58 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:26,060 afraid 59 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:28,599 of going, hey, what if I lose my 60 00:02:28,599 --> 00:02:32,104 job if, I disclose I'm disabled, which is 61 00:02:32,104 --> 00:02:33,865 very much the case in quite a lot 62 00:02:33,865 --> 00:02:34,525 of cases. 63 00:02:35,145 --> 00:02:38,364 There's also the matter of whether someone identifies 64 00:02:38,664 --> 00:02:40,444 as disabled or not. 65 00:02:40,745 --> 00:02:41,645 Like, someone, 66 00:02:42,584 --> 00:02:43,724 might have what's 67 00:02:44,139 --> 00:02:44,639 legally, 68 00:02:45,099 --> 00:02:45,599 disability, 69 00:02:46,939 --> 00:02:49,099 but they might not see themselves as being 70 00:02:49,099 --> 00:02:49,599 disabled. 71 00:02:50,219 --> 00:02:52,480 There's also the issues around 72 00:02:53,020 --> 00:02:53,520 discrimination, 73 00:02:54,620 --> 00:02:55,280 the societal 74 00:02:56,544 --> 00:02:58,384 climate that we're in, as I was alluding 75 00:02:58,384 --> 00:02:59,125 to earlier, 76 00:03:00,144 --> 00:03:02,324 with the way that people are perceived, 77 00:03:02,944 --> 00:03:05,104 if they disclose that they are disabled. And 78 00:03:05,104 --> 00:03:06,245 for that, I include, 79 00:03:06,864 --> 00:03:08,405 people who are neurodivergent 80 00:03:08,864 --> 00:03:11,104 and people who have chronic long term health 81 00:03:11,104 --> 00:03:11,604 conditions. 82 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:14,139 The, 83 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:16,860 there's matters around discrimination 84 00:03:17,519 --> 00:03:18,019 and, 85 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,560 about that, which also again ties into the 86 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:22,780 societal attitudes. 87 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,000 There's also the physical digital barriers, whether the 88 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:27,500 environment 89 00:03:27,995 --> 00:03:29,534 is accessible or not. 90 00:03:30,074 --> 00:03:32,155 Can you get the support that you need 91 00:03:32,155 --> 00:03:33,594 in order to be able to do your 92 00:03:33,594 --> 00:03:34,094 job? 93 00:03:34,715 --> 00:03:35,775 And there's also 94 00:03:36,155 --> 00:03:38,495 the matter of funding issues 95 00:03:39,115 --> 00:03:39,615 and 96 00:03:40,319 --> 00:03:43,520 whether you can get funded. And unfortunately it's 97 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:44,740 very often the case 98 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,139 that disabled people ended 99 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:48,340 up being 100 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,479 stuck in lower grade roles and struggle to 101 00:03:52,479 --> 00:03:54,465 progress through their careers. And one of the 102 00:03:54,465 --> 00:03:56,784 things that we've identified is that where it's 103 00:03:56,784 --> 00:03:59,284 around the 7% mark for early 104 00:03:59,664 --> 00:04:00,724 career researchers 105 00:04:01,264 --> 00:04:02,004 and academics, 106 00:04:02,705 --> 00:04:03,205 that 107 00:04:04,305 --> 00:04:06,884 percentage decreases the more senior 108 00:04:07,344 --> 00:04:10,069 that you look. So within sort of like 109 00:04:10,069 --> 00:04:10,569 higher, 110 00:04:11,670 --> 00:04:12,170 management, 111 00:04:12,629 --> 00:04:13,530 senior roles, 112 00:04:13,990 --> 00:04:14,890 senior academics, 113 00:04:15,830 --> 00:04:18,730 that figure drops to more like 4.5%. 114 00:04:19,910 --> 00:04:22,305 Wow. It's really stark, isn't it? Mhmm. And 115 00:04:22,305 --> 00:04:24,024 and in the report, it also outlines, you 116 00:04:24,024 --> 00:04:25,764 know, you touched you've touched on them, 117 00:04:26,144 --> 00:04:27,665 in the previous answer a little bit, but 118 00:04:27,665 --> 00:04:30,064 it outlines the many barriers that are faced 119 00:04:30,064 --> 00:04:32,464 by disabled people in science. You know, these 120 00:04:32,464 --> 00:04:33,125 are social, 121 00:04:33,745 --> 00:04:35,685 physical, digital, and and financial. 122 00:04:36,189 --> 00:04:38,050 And maybe we can go through through these 123 00:04:38,509 --> 00:04:40,509 one by one. So what what about some 124 00:04:40,509 --> 00:04:42,110 of the kind of physical barriers and what 125 00:04:42,110 --> 00:04:44,449 what what are some instances there? 126 00:04:45,230 --> 00:04:48,290 Okay. That can be the building access. So 127 00:04:48,555 --> 00:04:50,254 is a laboratory space 128 00:04:50,634 --> 00:04:51,134 accessible? 129 00:04:52,074 --> 00:04:54,634 Can you get into the building even? Such 130 00:04:54,634 --> 00:04:55,615 as, is there 131 00:04:55,995 --> 00:04:57,774 a ramp access that's suitable? 132 00:04:58,394 --> 00:04:59,615 Even sort of like the inclination 133 00:05:00,235 --> 00:05:00,894 of the 134 00:05:01,194 --> 00:05:02,175 ramp can 135 00:05:02,555 --> 00:05:03,029 cause 136 00:05:03,430 --> 00:05:04,009 a building 137 00:05:04,790 --> 00:05:06,790 to be completely inaccessible for, say, someone with 138 00:05:06,790 --> 00:05:09,610 reduced mobility or someone in a wheelchair? 139 00:05:11,189 --> 00:05:11,850 Are there 140 00:05:13,509 --> 00:05:14,009 handrails? 141 00:05:15,110 --> 00:05:16,995 What's the surface made of? 142 00:05:17,555 --> 00:05:19,095 Are there accessible 143 00:05:20,354 --> 00:05:20,854 doors? 144 00:05:21,794 --> 00:05:23,714 Can you press a button to get you 145 00:05:23,714 --> 00:05:26,274 entry even into the building? And when you're 146 00:05:26,274 --> 00:05:27,975 dealing with a lot of very heavy 147 00:05:28,435 --> 00:05:29,254 fire doors, 148 00:05:29,954 --> 00:05:31,814 those can be a massive barrier 149 00:05:32,980 --> 00:05:34,899 where even if someone is walking but has 150 00:05:34,899 --> 00:05:36,439 reduced say muscle strength, 151 00:05:37,139 --> 00:05:39,699 they will say be reliant on someone else 152 00:05:39,699 --> 00:05:42,420 to open the door for them. And so 153 00:05:42,420 --> 00:05:44,740 even getting into the room can be an 154 00:05:44,740 --> 00:05:48,985 issue. And that's for laboratory spaces, teaching spaces, 155 00:05:49,205 --> 00:05:49,865 the works. 156 00:05:50,485 --> 00:05:52,665 There's also issues within offices. 157 00:05:53,125 --> 00:05:56,345 Are there sensory issues going on such as, 158 00:05:57,125 --> 00:05:57,625 physical 159 00:05:59,444 --> 00:06:00,985 issues with the desk heights, 160 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:04,000 the surfaces that, 161 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,500 textures of the fabrics that, 162 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:08,019 chairs are. 163 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,379 What about lighting conditions? Are those suitable? 164 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:12,660 If someone, 165 00:06:14,365 --> 00:06:16,225 is say sensitive to light, 166 00:06:16,764 --> 00:06:18,785 for whatever reason, be it an allergy 167 00:06:19,404 --> 00:06:21,964 or is prone to migraines or they need 168 00:06:21,964 --> 00:06:24,044 good light levels, say for example, if they 169 00:06:24,044 --> 00:06:25,185 have reduced, 170 00:06:25,644 --> 00:06:26,144 vision, 171 00:06:26,764 --> 00:06:28,980 they might need better lighting. So is that 172 00:06:29,139 --> 00:06:31,139 suitable? That can be a barrier. What about 173 00:06:31,139 --> 00:06:31,639 adjustable 174 00:06:32,580 --> 00:06:35,460 desks? Are the desks too high for someone 175 00:06:35,460 --> 00:06:38,439 who's, say, in a chair or someone who's 176 00:06:38,580 --> 00:06:39,560 shorter in stature? 177 00:06:40,180 --> 00:06:40,680 Can 178 00:06:41,379 --> 00:06:43,080 they even sit at the desk? 179 00:06:43,460 --> 00:06:46,074 Are the shelves too high? Or say fume 180 00:06:46,074 --> 00:06:48,014 cupboards? There are a huge amount 181 00:06:49,754 --> 00:06:50,894 of range of what 182 00:06:51,834 --> 00:06:53,615 physical barriers there are in place. 183 00:06:54,235 --> 00:06:55,754 Mhmm. And I guess some some of these, 184 00:06:55,754 --> 00:06:57,995 you know, during the construction of a building 185 00:06:57,995 --> 00:06:59,995 itself, for example, in a bit of that, 186 00:06:59,995 --> 00:07:00,574 that these 187 00:07:01,189 --> 00:07:03,589 these types of barriers are removed at that 188 00:07:03,589 --> 00:07:05,509 point when, you know, during the planning process, 189 00:07:05,509 --> 00:07:07,189 for example, I guess it's much more difficult 190 00:07:07,189 --> 00:07:09,509 to implement these later on, you know, when 191 00:07:09,509 --> 00:07:11,350 when a building is already existing, for example. 192 00:07:11,350 --> 00:07:13,209 So I guess that those kind of considerations 193 00:07:13,430 --> 00:07:14,870 need to be taken in, you know, as 194 00:07:14,870 --> 00:07:16,605 soon as as soon as possible, I guess. 195 00:07:17,165 --> 00:07:20,365 Absolutely. It really is so much easier and 196 00:07:20,365 --> 00:07:22,845 more cost effective as well, which a lot 197 00:07:22,845 --> 00:07:25,805 of places don't consider and being a part 198 00:07:25,805 --> 00:07:26,545 of the 199 00:07:27,004 --> 00:07:28,064 equation really, 200 00:07:28,444 --> 00:07:29,904 is thinking about inclusion, 201 00:07:30,685 --> 00:07:32,900 from the get go, which it really should 202 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:34,259 be. And 203 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,300 it's really startling just how many places, 204 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:39,620 even in this day and age, 205 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,699 will leave the accessibility 206 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:42,660 part 207 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,759 until being an afterthought if they think about 208 00:07:45,759 --> 00:07:48,475 it at all. There are even instances where 209 00:07:48,535 --> 00:07:51,915 I've encountered lecture theaters that are brand new 210 00:07:52,055 --> 00:07:53,274 multimillion pound, 211 00:07:54,694 --> 00:07:56,394 facilities that have been built, 212 00:07:56,774 --> 00:07:59,735 where even things like, the lecture theaters are 213 00:07:59,735 --> 00:08:00,634 so steep, 214 00:08:01,220 --> 00:08:03,000 where the steps are 215 00:08:03,300 --> 00:08:05,620 really high and really narrow. They're sort of 216 00:08:05,620 --> 00:08:08,899 designed with tall men in mind. So even 217 00:08:08,899 --> 00:08:11,139 if you don't have a disability of any 218 00:08:11,139 --> 00:08:11,639 kind, 219 00:08:12,180 --> 00:08:14,360 but say you are a more petite woman, 220 00:08:14,654 --> 00:08:15,555 you might struggle 221 00:08:15,935 --> 00:08:18,254 and you don't feel safe because there's no 222 00:08:18,254 --> 00:08:20,595 handrails except for grabbing onto the desks. 223 00:08:21,855 --> 00:08:24,915 And there might not be necessarily enough space 224 00:08:25,055 --> 00:08:27,055 for someone who's in a chair to come 225 00:08:27,055 --> 00:08:29,819 and sit or looking at things like the 226 00:08:29,819 --> 00:08:30,560 fire escapes. 227 00:08:31,339 --> 00:08:34,000 Are those accessible for someone with impaired mobility? 228 00:08:35,339 --> 00:08:37,579 Like, it's no good having a fire escape 229 00:08:37,579 --> 00:08:38,639 that's up steps. 230 00:08:39,179 --> 00:08:42,220 And how about the digital barriers? So what 231 00:08:42,220 --> 00:08:44,079 are some kind of examples there? 232 00:08:44,845 --> 00:08:45,965 Oh, there's loads. 233 00:08:46,605 --> 00:08:48,784 Is there sufficient software? 234 00:08:50,524 --> 00:08:51,024 The 235 00:08:51,804 --> 00:08:52,625 for example, 236 00:08:53,325 --> 00:08:54,784 is the documents 237 00:08:55,325 --> 00:08:56,144 screen reader, 238 00:08:57,870 --> 00:09:00,129 accessible? Like, can they be read properly? 239 00:09:00,829 --> 00:09:03,629 Looking at the fonts used, looking at the 240 00:09:03,629 --> 00:09:04,129 colors, 241 00:09:04,509 --> 00:09:05,409 for the fonts. 242 00:09:06,110 --> 00:09:07,789 You want to make sure that the gold 243 00:09:07,789 --> 00:09:09,250 standard is being 244 00:09:09,629 --> 00:09:11,169 followed with select ideally 245 00:09:11,735 --> 00:09:13,274 font size 12 to 14. 246 00:09:14,375 --> 00:09:17,014 Font size 14 is the absolute gold standard 247 00:09:17,014 --> 00:09:18,295 is the best that you can go for 248 00:09:18,295 --> 00:09:20,615 as a base level. And yet normally people 249 00:09:20,615 --> 00:09:23,335 will go for really small print and they 250 00:09:23,335 --> 00:09:25,835 will use low grade paper when printing documents. 251 00:09:26,950 --> 00:09:29,190 Looking at the contrast to the colors. And 252 00:09:29,190 --> 00:09:29,690 unfortunately, 253 00:09:30,070 --> 00:09:31,210 one thing that is, 254 00:09:32,230 --> 00:09:34,710 really good highlighting of that sometimes you will 255 00:09:34,710 --> 00:09:35,210 have, 256 00:09:35,830 --> 00:09:38,889 people's needs will clash with other people's needs 257 00:09:39,605 --> 00:09:40,824 Is looking at, 258 00:09:41,444 --> 00:09:43,704 somehow some people might need low contrast, 259 00:09:44,804 --> 00:09:46,985 not too many colors on the page, 260 00:09:48,084 --> 00:09:50,264 such as in the cases of, some autistic 261 00:09:50,324 --> 00:09:52,485 people might find that it's much easier for 262 00:09:52,485 --> 00:09:52,804 them, 263 00:09:53,365 --> 00:09:54,184 and be 264 00:09:54,590 --> 00:09:56,750 less prone to sensory overload is if they've 265 00:09:56,750 --> 00:09:59,070 got a very soft color palette going on 266 00:09:59,070 --> 00:10:00,990 where there isn't too much high contrast and 267 00:10:00,990 --> 00:10:03,149 lots of pops of color. Whereas say someone 268 00:10:03,149 --> 00:10:03,889 who is ADHD, 269 00:10:04,350 --> 00:10:06,509 they might need lots of pops of color 270 00:10:06,509 --> 00:10:07,490 to hold their attention. 271 00:10:07,950 --> 00:10:10,129 So that again can be a digital barrier. 272 00:10:11,335 --> 00:10:13,815 There are many different things. And one of 273 00:10:13,815 --> 00:10:15,735 the things that's so useful, but again, you 274 00:10:15,735 --> 00:10:18,055 still need to check it, is you can 275 00:10:18,055 --> 00:10:19,995 get these fantastic toolkits, 276 00:10:21,095 --> 00:10:21,595 that 277 00:10:22,055 --> 00:10:23,190 let you adjust 278 00:10:23,909 --> 00:10:26,549 the color scheme. So something say black and 279 00:10:26,549 --> 00:10:27,370 white contrast 280 00:10:27,830 --> 00:10:30,889 or inverted colors or increasing the font size. 281 00:10:33,029 --> 00:10:33,529 Or 282 00:10:34,789 --> 00:10:37,595 for example, many other ranges like that but 283 00:10:37,595 --> 00:10:39,855 it's all along that sort of range. 284 00:10:40,314 --> 00:10:42,154 But you need to check that with the 285 00:10:42,154 --> 00:10:44,495 color schemes that you're using, 286 00:10:45,355 --> 00:10:46,654 the fonts you've chosen, 287 00:10:47,595 --> 00:10:49,754 do those work when you apply the different 288 00:10:49,754 --> 00:10:52,160 filters? Because sometimes it can be very much 289 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,559 the case that once you apply something it 290 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,960 will still not be accessible. And I've even 291 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:58,019 encountered cases 292 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:00,660 where trying to apply these toolkits 293 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:02,660 filters 294 00:11:03,065 --> 00:11:05,404 makes things actually even worse for accessibility. 295 00:11:06,745 --> 00:11:09,384 Right. And these toolkit filters, they're something that 296 00:11:09,384 --> 00:11:11,625 you can just kind of download or or 297 00:11:11,625 --> 00:11:14,024 something like that? Yeah. There are lots of 298 00:11:14,024 --> 00:11:15,085 different ones available. 299 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,839 Right. Okay. So how what about if we 300 00:11:17,839 --> 00:11:19,600 move on to then some of the social 301 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,279 issues then? So I mean, so I guess, 302 00:11:21,279 --> 00:11:22,480 you know, these are some of the kind 303 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:23,220 of more everyday 304 00:11:23,759 --> 00:11:25,839 things that you that disabled people in science 305 00:11:25,839 --> 00:11:26,580 may encounter. 306 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:27,620 Mhmm. 307 00:11:28,235 --> 00:11:29,115 Oh, many. 308 00:11:29,514 --> 00:11:30,975 There is a lot of discrimination 309 00:11:31,514 --> 00:11:33,934 and bias against disabled people's 310 00:11:34,475 --> 00:11:34,975 abilities. 311 00:11:36,634 --> 00:11:37,375 We've perceived 312 00:11:37,914 --> 00:11:38,654 as being 313 00:11:40,235 --> 00:11:41,375 not very smart, 314 00:11:41,940 --> 00:11:42,679 not capable, 315 00:11:43,059 --> 00:11:44,040 not so productive. 316 00:11:46,179 --> 00:11:48,660 There's a lot of discrimination and that's very 317 00:11:48,660 --> 00:11:50,840 much wired into society. 318 00:11:51,460 --> 00:11:53,779 So if you're looking at inclusion, you can't 319 00:11:53,779 --> 00:11:54,254 just 320 00:11:54,815 --> 00:11:57,615 look at it within the context of just 321 00:11:57,615 --> 00:12:00,654 higher education alone or within STEM, 322 00:12:01,134 --> 00:12:01,634 itself. 323 00:12:02,014 --> 00:12:04,174 You have to look much further afield and 324 00:12:04,174 --> 00:12:06,835 look at things on a more national scale, 325 00:12:07,215 --> 00:12:09,955 looking at society wide barriers 326 00:12:10,629 --> 00:12:12,169 and biases and prejudices 327 00:12:12,789 --> 00:12:13,929 against disability. 328 00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:15,370 And 329 00:12:15,990 --> 00:12:18,629 so that is something that really needs to 330 00:12:18,629 --> 00:12:19,129 change. 331 00:12:22,070 --> 00:12:22,730 And unfortunately, 332 00:12:23,269 --> 00:12:25,065 it ends up being the case that disabled 333 00:12:25,065 --> 00:12:27,565 people in STEM are significantly 334 00:12:28,825 --> 00:12:29,325 more 335 00:12:31,945 --> 00:12:34,125 exposed to bullying and harassment. 336 00:12:34,665 --> 00:12:36,365 The figures are really quite stark. 337 00:12:37,889 --> 00:12:40,929 It's been identified that over sixty percent of 338 00:12:40,929 --> 00:12:43,750 disabled people, including neurodivergent people, 339 00:12:44,129 --> 00:12:46,870 are subjected to bullying compared to 340 00:12:47,250 --> 00:12:48,309 about forty percent 341 00:12:48,769 --> 00:12:52,470 of non disabled people and that's really quite 342 00:12:53,414 --> 00:12:53,914 horrifying. 343 00:12:54,855 --> 00:12:57,274 You also have issues within the department 344 00:12:57,575 --> 00:12:58,075 of 345 00:12:58,774 --> 00:12:59,674 poor training, 346 00:13:00,455 --> 00:13:01,274 poor understanding 347 00:13:02,134 --> 00:13:04,554 of what a disabled person's 348 00:13:05,654 --> 00:13:06,154 challenges 349 00:13:06,639 --> 00:13:07,940 that they're facing are, 350 00:13:09,039 --> 00:13:11,440 or not really being aware of how a 351 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,820 disabled person might communicate differently if they're neurodivergent, 352 00:13:15,199 --> 00:13:15,860 for example. 353 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:18,980 There are a lot of different 354 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,179 attitudes at play and that really does 355 00:13:22,615 --> 00:13:23,514 need to change 356 00:13:24,375 --> 00:13:24,875 desperately. 357 00:13:25,815 --> 00:13:27,595 It's time for 358 00:13:29,975 --> 00:13:30,475 attitudes 359 00:13:31,175 --> 00:13:33,995 to become better and healthier because unfortunately, 360 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:37,940 things are untenable as they are. 361 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:40,159 Yeah. I mean, that's really a, you know, 362 00:13:40,159 --> 00:13:42,320 really stark statistic that, you know, almost two 363 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:42,820 thirds 364 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:45,919 of, you know, disabled people in science are 365 00:13:45,919 --> 00:13:47,679 bullied. I mean, that's, you know, that's really, 366 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,355 it's an incredibly high statistic there. Yeah. 367 00:13:51,815 --> 00:13:53,335 And so what about I mean, not many 368 00:13:53,335 --> 00:13:55,495 people might think in terms of, you know, 369 00:13:55,495 --> 00:13:56,315 there are significant 370 00:13:56,774 --> 00:13:57,835 financial barriers. 371 00:13:58,695 --> 00:14:00,134 So maybe you could outline a little bit 372 00:14:00,134 --> 00:14:01,595 about what what they may be. 373 00:14:02,375 --> 00:14:02,774 Oh, 374 00:14:03,495 --> 00:14:05,039 things such as being able to get, 375 00:14:05,519 --> 00:14:06,019 funding. 376 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:07,220 Unfortunately, 377 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,000 because a lot of disabled people end up 378 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,620 stuck in lower grade, 379 00:14:12,639 --> 00:14:13,139 roles, 380 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,600 it ends up being harder to progress and 381 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,100 it becomes harder to get funding as well. 382 00:14:18,799 --> 00:14:21,065 And it's where you get 383 00:14:21,365 --> 00:14:24,485 really stark statistics such as that only one 384 00:14:24,485 --> 00:14:25,865 percent of applicants, 385 00:14:26,804 --> 00:14:28,024 disclose being disabled. 386 00:14:29,125 --> 00:14:30,904 When you look at UKRI's 387 00:14:31,445 --> 00:14:31,945 data, 388 00:14:32,965 --> 00:14:33,625 for applications 389 00:14:34,009 --> 00:14:36,809 for grants. And it ends up being that 390 00:14:36,809 --> 00:14:38,409 a lot of the line share of the 391 00:14:38,409 --> 00:14:38,909 funding 392 00:14:39,529 --> 00:14:40,429 goes to 393 00:14:40,809 --> 00:14:41,789 specific groups 394 00:14:42,250 --> 00:14:44,649 who tend to be in much higher already 395 00:14:44,649 --> 00:14:48,269 established positions. And so disabled people get unfortunately 396 00:14:48,330 --> 00:14:49,184 pushed out a lot 397 00:14:51,105 --> 00:14:54,065 from that respect. There's also issues around having 398 00:14:54,065 --> 00:14:56,404 time to apply for funding 399 00:14:56,784 --> 00:14:58,625 when things can end up taking a lot 400 00:14:58,625 --> 00:15:01,264 longer for a disabled person because managing their 401 00:15:01,264 --> 00:15:02,085 health conditions, 402 00:15:02,929 --> 00:15:05,829 struggling with the workloads that are already expected 403 00:15:06,049 --> 00:15:06,789 of everyone 404 00:15:07,250 --> 00:15:08,389 with little concession, 405 00:15:09,809 --> 00:15:12,610 that things can take longer for someone who's 406 00:15:12,610 --> 00:15:15,250 disabled, say, to to read something or whether 407 00:15:15,250 --> 00:15:16,904 they might have to take rest breaks 408 00:15:17,305 --> 00:15:18,365 because of their disabilities, 409 00:15:18,825 --> 00:15:21,485 because they might have fatigue issues, for example. 410 00:15:23,305 --> 00:15:23,805 The, 411 00:15:24,745 --> 00:15:25,565 there's no 412 00:15:25,865 --> 00:15:29,245 give really. And so if funding bodies can 413 00:15:29,465 --> 00:15:30,845 give provision for 414 00:15:31,789 --> 00:15:33,870 a longer time, and this would again would 415 00:15:33,870 --> 00:15:37,309 be another case where changes for a disabled 416 00:15:37,309 --> 00:15:39,169 person actually benefits 417 00:15:39,789 --> 00:15:43,250 everyone really. So having more time for 418 00:15:45,725 --> 00:15:47,904 being able to put a funding grant together, 419 00:15:48,605 --> 00:15:52,204 being able to acknowledge the roles of, early 420 00:15:52,204 --> 00:15:52,704 grades, 421 00:15:53,725 --> 00:15:54,225 researchers, 422 00:15:55,324 --> 00:15:57,424 and looking at how they can, 423 00:15:57,884 --> 00:15:58,384 mitigate 424 00:15:58,769 --> 00:16:01,110 the issues around being disabled, 425 00:16:01,889 --> 00:16:03,889 is something that funding bodies could really do 426 00:16:03,889 --> 00:16:06,450 a lot of, a lot more of. Or 427 00:16:06,450 --> 00:16:07,410 looking at how, 428 00:16:07,889 --> 00:16:10,230 support can be given to help, 429 00:16:10,930 --> 00:16:11,430 someone 430 00:16:11,970 --> 00:16:13,350 translate, say a three-dimensional 431 00:16:13,810 --> 00:16:15,184 concept of some research, 432 00:16:16,605 --> 00:16:18,545 into the correct format 433 00:16:18,924 --> 00:16:20,705 for putting a proposal together, 434 00:16:21,085 --> 00:16:22,625 as well as also ringfencing 435 00:16:23,245 --> 00:16:23,745 funding 436 00:16:24,205 --> 00:16:24,705 specifically 437 00:16:25,165 --> 00:16:25,665 for 438 00:16:26,205 --> 00:16:27,210 the extra cost 439 00:16:29,210 --> 00:16:30,830 associated with being disabled. 440 00:16:31,290 --> 00:16:32,970 So being able to have a support person 441 00:16:32,970 --> 00:16:35,529 in place who can do certain tasks for 442 00:16:35,529 --> 00:16:37,370 you that you might not necessarily be able 443 00:16:37,370 --> 00:16:38,190 to do yourself. 444 00:16:38,570 --> 00:16:40,029 But it's not 445 00:16:40,570 --> 00:16:43,355 them doing your job for you. It's having 446 00:16:43,355 --> 00:16:45,355 someone in place so that you can actually 447 00:16:45,355 --> 00:16:47,274 then do your own work, do your own 448 00:16:47,274 --> 00:16:49,914 science yourself. It's just having someone there to 449 00:16:49,914 --> 00:16:51,134 support you as made. 450 00:16:51,674 --> 00:16:53,294 Or having someone that can, 451 00:16:53,995 --> 00:16:56,815 help with tasks like email replies 452 00:16:57,434 --> 00:16:59,750 or the like. You can have a scribe. 453 00:16:59,809 --> 00:17:03,089 And again, these are all things that aren't 454 00:17:03,089 --> 00:17:03,990 just menial, 455 00:17:05,809 --> 00:17:06,309 unskilled 456 00:17:06,690 --> 00:17:07,190 jobs. 457 00:17:07,809 --> 00:17:08,869 You need someone 458 00:17:09,250 --> 00:17:11,190 who has a scientific background, 459 00:17:11,815 --> 00:17:14,695 someone that understands the jargon, that understands the 460 00:17:14,695 --> 00:17:16,775 skills and techniques, who has all of that 461 00:17:16,775 --> 00:17:17,994 in place themselves already. 462 00:17:18,775 --> 00:17:21,654 And so but, again, it's still someone who's 463 00:17:21,654 --> 00:17:22,795 in the support role, 464 00:17:23,255 --> 00:17:25,434 or having, the funding available 465 00:17:25,815 --> 00:17:28,330 to be able to purchase specialist equipment. 466 00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:30,250 And 467 00:17:30,549 --> 00:17:32,890 it really is so very telling. 468 00:17:33,430 --> 00:17:33,930 Like, 469 00:17:34,710 --> 00:17:35,210 you 470 00:17:36,630 --> 00:17:37,849 yeah. There isn't even, 471 00:17:38,470 --> 00:17:38,970 wheelchair 472 00:17:39,269 --> 00:17:39,769 accessible, 473 00:17:41,414 --> 00:17:42,714 lab coats available. 474 00:17:43,095 --> 00:17:44,554 They're not a standard thing. 475 00:17:45,095 --> 00:17:45,595 And, 476 00:17:46,294 --> 00:17:48,375 yeah, wouldn't it be better if lab coats 477 00:17:48,375 --> 00:17:49,575 didn't just come in sort of like a 478 00:17:49,575 --> 00:17:51,815 warm cut that's really very much designed for 479 00:17:51,815 --> 00:17:53,869 men? You don't even have, 480 00:17:54,570 --> 00:17:58,109 lab coats that are suitable for women's figures, 481 00:17:58,570 --> 00:18:01,070 let alone people who are in a wheelchair 482 00:18:01,369 --> 00:18:02,670 or has easy 483 00:18:03,289 --> 00:18:04,890 access so that they can be put on 484 00:18:04,890 --> 00:18:07,390 and taken off easily if someone's got reduced 485 00:18:07,724 --> 00:18:09,345 mobility in their hands, for example. 486 00:18:09,724 --> 00:18:10,384 And yet 487 00:18:10,924 --> 00:18:11,984 we have PPE 488 00:18:12,285 --> 00:18:12,785 that's 489 00:18:13,404 --> 00:18:15,644 designed for service dogs to be able to 490 00:18:15,644 --> 00:18:16,625 go into labs. 491 00:18:17,404 --> 00:18:20,045 So surely they can design wheelchair accessible lab 492 00:18:20,045 --> 00:18:20,545 coats. 493 00:18:21,644 --> 00:18:23,160 And again, all of this 494 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:24,140 is 495 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:25,980 money that people go, 496 00:18:26,519 --> 00:18:28,460 oh, but it's too expensive to fund, 497 00:18:29,799 --> 00:18:32,359 disabled people's needs. It's too expensive. It's too 498 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,240 difficult to do. And yet surely, you get 499 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:35,740 return, 500 00:18:36,825 --> 00:18:39,224 from that through being able to enable that 501 00:18:39,224 --> 00:18:40,204 disabled person 502 00:18:40,664 --> 00:18:42,744 to do their jobs because otherwise they can 503 00:18:42,744 --> 00:18:44,744 get pushed out and you're going to lose 504 00:18:44,744 --> 00:18:46,525 all that talent, all that knowledge. 505 00:18:47,144 --> 00:18:48,845 And it really is 506 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:50,659 a shame 507 00:18:51,279 --> 00:18:54,480 and a waste of that experience and knowledge, 508 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:54,980 really. 509 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:55,859 So 510 00:18:56,799 --> 00:18:59,440 that needs to be changed as part of 511 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:00,899 the changes in attitudes 512 00:19:01,605 --> 00:19:02,345 to funding, 513 00:19:04,005 --> 00:19:05,304 disabled people's needs. 514 00:19:06,005 --> 00:19:08,005 Yeah. And and you also, in the report, 515 00:19:08,005 --> 00:19:08,664 it also, 516 00:19:09,365 --> 00:19:11,444 recommends in terms of looking at these issues, 517 00:19:11,444 --> 00:19:12,664 you know, series of recommendations, 518 00:19:13,045 --> 00:19:13,865 looking at 519 00:19:14,244 --> 00:19:16,345 a short, medium, and long term. 520 00:19:17,045 --> 00:19:18,619 So I wonder whether you could just address 521 00:19:18,619 --> 00:19:20,059 a little bit about what, you know, say 522 00:19:20,059 --> 00:19:20,559 colleagues 523 00:19:21,259 --> 00:19:23,740 everywhere on a day to day basis, you 524 00:19:23,740 --> 00:19:25,039 know, what can they do, 525 00:19:25,419 --> 00:19:26,079 to help? 526 00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:29,099 Oh, there's loads of little things that can 527 00:19:29,099 --> 00:19:31,724 make a huge amount of difference. Even just 528 00:19:32,204 --> 00:19:32,704 asking, 529 00:19:33,085 --> 00:19:34,144 how can we help, 530 00:19:35,325 --> 00:19:38,365 is a huge thing. Letting a disabled person 531 00:19:38,365 --> 00:19:40,065 say what their needs are 532 00:19:40,525 --> 00:19:43,644 and letting them have their voice is really 533 00:19:43,644 --> 00:19:45,825 bad at all. One thing that we desperately 534 00:19:45,884 --> 00:19:47,819 need is more allies. 535 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,220 People that will speak up and 536 00:19:50,839 --> 00:19:53,099 defend and back up a disabled person, 537 00:19:53,799 --> 00:19:55,960 if they run into issues such as if 538 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:57,500 there's bullying and harassment, 539 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,139 or if there are problems in the workplace 540 00:20:00,279 --> 00:20:01,259 with other colleagues. 541 00:20:02,644 --> 00:20:06,105 Things like, can they provide colleagues provide 542 00:20:06,404 --> 00:20:07,625 notes in advance? 543 00:20:08,884 --> 00:20:11,785 But again, it will help a disabled person 544 00:20:12,164 --> 00:20:14,105 and non disabled colleagues 545 00:20:14,404 --> 00:20:16,345 just as well alike. And 546 00:20:17,380 --> 00:20:19,000 there's that little shift. 547 00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:21,159 Also looking at how, 548 00:20:22,099 --> 00:20:25,779 workloads can be managed, changing perceptions about progress 549 00:20:25,779 --> 00:20:27,000 through one's career, 550 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:30,200 looking at 551 00:20:31,295 --> 00:20:32,994 the promotions criterias and mitigating, 552 00:20:34,575 --> 00:20:36,815 for example, needing to take career breaks or 553 00:20:36,815 --> 00:20:39,134 that something might take longer. For example, a 554 00:20:39,134 --> 00:20:39,954 piece of marking 555 00:20:40,494 --> 00:20:41,875 that someone might, 556 00:20:42,494 --> 00:20:44,434 be able to do in, say, 557 00:20:44,894 --> 00:20:47,680 two, three hours. It might take a disabled 558 00:20:47,740 --> 00:20:48,240 person 559 00:20:49,099 --> 00:20:51,519 four, five, six hours, double the time, 560 00:20:52,299 --> 00:20:54,480 just to, like, give them that general idea. 561 00:20:55,820 --> 00:20:57,359 But that, again, it varies, 562 00:20:58,059 --> 00:21:00,694 because it's not one box fits all. 563 00:21:01,634 --> 00:21:05,315 So having that leeway and give being able 564 00:21:05,315 --> 00:21:07,474 to speak up and defend people when there 565 00:21:07,474 --> 00:21:08,054 are issues. 566 00:21:09,075 --> 00:21:11,654 So, yeah, it's part of that allyship and 567 00:21:12,690 --> 00:21:15,269 changing that culture, changing that attitude 568 00:21:16,130 --> 00:21:19,669 towards how disabled people and how disabled people's 569 00:21:19,970 --> 00:21:20,289 career, 570 00:21:21,009 --> 00:21:21,509 pathways 571 00:21:22,210 --> 00:21:22,869 are affected. 572 00:21:23,809 --> 00:21:25,724 That can be a huge 573 00:21:26,264 --> 00:21:28,444 change. As part of that movement towards, 574 00:21:28,984 --> 00:21:31,464 as we've laid out in the white paper, 575 00:21:31,464 --> 00:21:32,204 the goal 576 00:21:32,585 --> 00:21:33,644 of making 577 00:21:34,184 --> 00:21:37,004 research culture and teaching culture for that matter 578 00:21:37,384 --> 00:21:40,764 much more inclusive and accessible for disabled people. 579 00:21:41,490 --> 00:21:43,890 And all round, that would be healthier for 580 00:21:43,890 --> 00:21:45,829 everyone because as things are, 581 00:21:47,089 --> 00:21:48,470 STEM is pretty toxic. 582 00:21:49,250 --> 00:21:51,809 Higher education is pretty toxic in terms of 583 00:21:51,809 --> 00:21:52,390 the workloads 584 00:21:52,930 --> 00:21:55,174 that are expected of us, the hours, 585 00:21:57,714 --> 00:21:58,855 the life that's 586 00:21:59,234 --> 00:22:01,575 expected of us that we're almost 587 00:22:02,035 --> 00:22:03,954 just need to be perceived as being just 588 00:22:03,954 --> 00:22:06,194 robots where we just work and just churn 589 00:22:06,194 --> 00:22:08,134 out paper after paper after paper. 590 00:22:09,470 --> 00:22:11,730 It's not healthy for anyone really. 591 00:22:12,109 --> 00:22:13,570 So having these attitudes 592 00:22:14,029 --> 00:22:16,049 benefits everyone really. And, 593 00:22:17,390 --> 00:22:17,890 yeah. 594 00:22:18,829 --> 00:22:20,690 And, and what about some of the 595 00:22:21,309 --> 00:22:23,674 longer term goals and that's that's highlighted in 596 00:22:23,674 --> 00:22:24,875 the report? I wonder if you could just 597 00:22:24,875 --> 00:22:26,474 outline a few, a few, a few of 598 00:22:26,474 --> 00:22:26,974 those. 599 00:22:27,434 --> 00:22:27,934 Okay. 600 00:22:28,555 --> 00:22:31,434 Whilst we're wanting to move towards things like 601 00:22:31,434 --> 00:22:32,654 the improving of funding, 602 00:22:33,674 --> 00:22:35,055 changing people's attitudes, 603 00:22:35,910 --> 00:22:38,250 We've all it's all in the movement towards 604 00:22:38,309 --> 00:22:40,309 trying to make things more inclusive as I 605 00:22:40,309 --> 00:22:41,690 was just saying. 606 00:22:42,150 --> 00:22:44,650 And that includes things such as, 607 00:22:46,150 --> 00:22:46,650 endorsing 608 00:22:47,190 --> 00:22:48,009 an intersectional, 609 00:22:48,950 --> 00:22:49,450 framework 610 00:22:49,830 --> 00:22:50,570 for disabilities, 611 00:22:51,424 --> 00:22:52,325 as well as acknowledging 612 00:22:52,704 --> 00:22:53,525 the compounded, 613 00:22:54,065 --> 00:22:54,565 impact 614 00:22:55,184 --> 00:22:58,005 of someone who is safe, ethnic, 615 00:22:58,625 --> 00:23:00,164 racial, and minority group, 616 00:23:01,664 --> 00:23:03,825 as well as being disabled or a woman 617 00:23:03,825 --> 00:23:05,044 who's also disabled. 618 00:23:06,809 --> 00:23:07,549 The barriers 619 00:23:07,929 --> 00:23:08,429 and, 620 00:23:09,930 --> 00:23:10,430 inequalities 621 00:23:10,809 --> 00:23:12,029 faced from each group, 622 00:23:12,650 --> 00:23:13,630 they're all cumulative. 623 00:23:14,250 --> 00:23:16,910 So having a framework that is intersectional 624 00:23:17,369 --> 00:23:18,349 as well as 625 00:23:18,890 --> 00:23:20,029 disability inclusive 626 00:23:20,565 --> 00:23:23,444 really is needed. And it's quite stark that 627 00:23:23,444 --> 00:23:26,724 we don't have a framework that's out there 628 00:23:26,724 --> 00:23:28,184 yet completely and utterly 629 00:23:28,484 --> 00:23:31,704 like Athena, Swan or the Race Equality Charter. 630 00:23:32,085 --> 00:23:34,105 There is work in progress towards, 631 00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:35,200 establishing 632 00:23:36,059 --> 00:23:38,400 the framework for disabled people, 633 00:23:38,779 --> 00:23:40,799 but there is still work to be done. 634 00:23:41,180 --> 00:23:43,740 So that's one movement. Looking at things such 635 00:23:43,740 --> 00:23:44,400 as accountability 636 00:23:45,259 --> 00:23:46,079 within organizations 637 00:23:47,044 --> 00:23:47,704 and within, 638 00:23:48,085 --> 00:23:49,065 funding bodies 639 00:23:50,005 --> 00:23:52,105 for poor practice, looking 640 00:23:52,484 --> 00:23:52,984 at 641 00:23:53,525 --> 00:23:54,025 whether, 642 00:23:55,525 --> 00:23:56,904 if someone is, 643 00:23:58,085 --> 00:24:00,825 sort of like discriminating against a disabled person, 644 00:24:00,884 --> 00:24:02,460 not bullying them, harassing 645 00:24:04,940 --> 00:24:05,440 harassing 646 00:24:06,140 --> 00:24:08,159 them, holding those people to account 647 00:24:08,619 --> 00:24:09,440 and recognising 648 00:24:10,299 --> 00:24:10,799 when 649 00:24:11,339 --> 00:24:11,839 institutions 650 00:24:12,779 --> 00:24:15,099 have got good policies in place and are 651 00:24:15,099 --> 00:24:15,919 doing things 652 00:24:16,539 --> 00:24:19,724 like removing some of those physical digital barriers 653 00:24:19,785 --> 00:24:21,325 that I spoke about earlier 654 00:24:21,785 --> 00:24:24,365 and trying to make things more inclusive 655 00:24:24,664 --> 00:24:26,525 for the disabled staff members 656 00:24:26,904 --> 00:24:28,825 because that's one of the things that's really 657 00:24:28,825 --> 00:24:31,404 commonly found for disabled people 658 00:24:31,785 --> 00:24:33,799 is that in higher education 659 00:24:34,099 --> 00:24:35,079 across the board, 660 00:24:35,380 --> 00:24:38,579 it tends to be that disability inclusion is 661 00:24:38,579 --> 00:24:41,319 focused almost entirely on disabled students 662 00:24:41,859 --> 00:24:44,200 and disabled staff get ignored 663 00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:46,819 and swept under the carpet a lot. And 664 00:24:46,819 --> 00:24:48,794 that's something that needs to change. Again, it's 665 00:24:48,794 --> 00:24:51,214 part of the cultural societal changes 666 00:24:51,755 --> 00:24:53,454 that, yeah, a disabled student, 667 00:24:54,234 --> 00:24:56,954 can drop and then find themselves as nowhere 668 00:24:56,954 --> 00:24:58,894 to go in STEM unless 669 00:24:59,595 --> 00:25:02,014 things are changed with the attitudes and acknowledged 670 00:25:02,450 --> 00:25:04,549 that, and it's not acknowledged that disabled people 671 00:25:05,089 --> 00:25:07,589 are existing in STEM as professionals. 672 00:25:08,529 --> 00:25:10,609 And so trying to get that framework in 673 00:25:10,609 --> 00:25:12,869 place is really important. Holding people, 674 00:25:13,490 --> 00:25:13,990 institutions 675 00:25:14,849 --> 00:25:17,904 to account for when there's poor practice and 676 00:25:17,964 --> 00:25:19,984 rewarding things when things are good, 677 00:25:22,045 --> 00:25:22,545 improving 678 00:25:23,244 --> 00:25:25,984 the support for access to work. And unfortunately, 679 00:25:26,045 --> 00:25:26,945 it's the case 680 00:25:27,325 --> 00:25:30,365 that just as disability benefits such as PIP, 681 00:25:30,365 --> 00:25:31,019 which is 682 00:25:31,580 --> 00:25:32,640 meant to be 683 00:25:33,019 --> 00:25:33,519 for 684 00:25:35,339 --> 00:25:35,839 supporting 685 00:25:36,380 --> 00:25:39,200 that disabled people have a higher living cost, 686 00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:42,539 that's being decimated as being much harder to 687 00:25:42,539 --> 00:25:45,244 get with the criteria, which are already brutally 688 00:25:45,244 --> 00:25:45,744 hard. 689 00:25:47,085 --> 00:25:49,085 People think, oh, it's just easy to get 690 00:25:49,085 --> 00:25:51,664 PIP. It really isn't. And it's incredibly 691 00:25:52,605 --> 00:25:53,105 traumatizing 692 00:25:53,964 --> 00:25:54,865 to go through 693 00:25:55,164 --> 00:25:56,625 reassessment after reassessment 694 00:25:57,349 --> 00:25:59,450 where you're not even treated as human, 695 00:25:59,910 --> 00:26:02,070 and treated as a liar a lot of 696 00:26:02,070 --> 00:26:04,390 the time. So access to work, which is 697 00:26:04,390 --> 00:26:07,210 meant to be there to support disabled people 698 00:26:07,269 --> 00:26:09,130 and help them stay in work, 699 00:26:09,430 --> 00:26:12,015 that needs to be funded properly. And unfortunately, 700 00:26:12,234 --> 00:26:14,394 assets to work, the funding for that's being 701 00:26:14,394 --> 00:26:16,654 cut as well, which is going to, again, 702 00:26:16,795 --> 00:26:17,615 run the risk 703 00:26:18,154 --> 00:26:20,654 of disabled people being pushed out of work. 704 00:26:20,875 --> 00:26:23,615 And it also doesn't really have a setup 705 00:26:23,755 --> 00:26:25,454 that acknowledges that people 706 00:26:25,755 --> 00:26:27,809 who are disabled can be working in high 707 00:26:27,809 --> 00:26:29,670 skilled, high hourly rate 708 00:26:30,130 --> 00:26:31,829 jobs, but they might not necessarily 709 00:26:32,130 --> 00:26:33,109 be able to, 710 00:26:34,369 --> 00:26:35,349 work full time. 711 00:26:35,809 --> 00:26:38,789 And they can but they also need support 712 00:26:39,170 --> 00:26:41,914 even though they're doing this high skill job. 713 00:26:42,775 --> 00:26:44,295 But they need to have the support that's 714 00:26:44,295 --> 00:26:46,455 in play, in place that's right for them, 715 00:26:46,455 --> 00:26:47,275 for their needs. 716 00:26:48,455 --> 00:26:50,154 So there's a lot of those different, 717 00:26:50,934 --> 00:26:52,475 factors all at play here. 718 00:26:53,015 --> 00:26:54,855 Yes. A lot of certainly a lot of 719 00:26:54,855 --> 00:26:55,835 a lot of things. 720 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,099 So you you attended an event on the 721 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,559 March 31 that was at the University of 722 00:27:01,559 --> 00:27:04,680 Strathclyde to launch the report. So what was 723 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,519 kind of the feeling there then at the 724 00:27:06,519 --> 00:27:07,019 event? 725 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,519 Oh, it was so powerful. It was really 726 00:27:10,519 --> 00:27:11,019 emotional. 727 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,545 There was so much fantastic discussion there. 728 00:27:15,724 --> 00:27:17,884 And we got a lot out of it. 729 00:27:17,884 --> 00:27:20,125 And it really is very much just the 730 00:27:20,125 --> 00:27:21,585 start of our activities 731 00:27:22,125 --> 00:27:23,984 of what we're planning to do. 732 00:27:24,765 --> 00:27:26,445 And it's going to be something that people 733 00:27:26,445 --> 00:27:29,509 need to check on, the Madison, 734 00:27:29,890 --> 00:27:30,769 STEM Action Group, 735 00:27:31,329 --> 00:27:33,509 web page because we're going to continually, 736 00:27:35,009 --> 00:27:37,009 update that with more plans of what we're 737 00:27:37,009 --> 00:27:37,990 wanting to do, 738 00:27:38,609 --> 00:27:40,369 such as in between now and later in 739 00:27:40,369 --> 00:27:42,630 the year when we've got another launch event 740 00:27:42,724 --> 00:27:43,625 aimed at policymakers 741 00:27:43,924 --> 00:27:46,345 down in London, which we'll be, hosting. 742 00:27:46,884 --> 00:27:49,545 However, one of the things that was noticeable 743 00:27:49,765 --> 00:27:50,505 at the event, 744 00:27:51,125 --> 00:27:52,585 we needed more scientists 745 00:27:52,884 --> 00:27:53,384 present. 746 00:27:53,845 --> 00:27:55,605 A lot of the people present were already 747 00:27:55,605 --> 00:27:58,059 those who care about EDI, who see the 748 00:27:58,059 --> 00:27:59,980 value and importance to it. It was in 749 00:27:59,980 --> 00:28:01,900 a way preaching to the choir, as it 750 00:28:01,900 --> 00:28:02,400 were. 751 00:28:02,779 --> 00:28:03,279 However, 752 00:28:03,740 --> 00:28:05,839 we need more scientists listening 753 00:28:06,299 --> 00:28:07,519 and taking action 754 00:28:07,900 --> 00:28:10,240 and recognizing that disability inclusion 755 00:28:10,700 --> 00:28:11,954 needs to be addressed. 756 00:28:12,434 --> 00:28:14,214 So in a way, it was highlighting 757 00:28:14,835 --> 00:28:16,615 part of the problem that we're facing. 758 00:28:17,234 --> 00:28:18,434 People need to be, 759 00:28:18,994 --> 00:28:21,394 taking account and taking action and getting involved 760 00:28:21,394 --> 00:28:23,394 in this. It shouldn't just be on the 761 00:28:23,394 --> 00:28:24,934 shoulders of EDI people, 762 00:28:25,634 --> 00:28:28,890 and disabled people. Some of us are doing 763 00:28:28,890 --> 00:28:29,390 this 764 00:28:29,690 --> 00:28:30,170 work, 765 00:28:30,570 --> 00:28:33,549 ourselves because of the barriers that we face, 766 00:28:33,610 --> 00:28:35,289 and we're just trying to get our voices 767 00:28:35,289 --> 00:28:35,789 heard. 768 00:28:36,090 --> 00:28:38,809 So we need more scientists getting involved in 769 00:28:38,809 --> 00:28:39,309 this. 770 00:28:40,414 --> 00:28:42,255 So that brings me on to my final 771 00:28:42,255 --> 00:28:43,934 question then, really, which is, you know, what 772 00:28:43,934 --> 00:28:45,075 are your next steps 773 00:28:45,375 --> 00:28:47,315 regarding this report? But also, 774 00:28:48,015 --> 00:28:49,934 you know, what what impact do you hope 775 00:28:49,934 --> 00:28:50,755 it will achieve? 776 00:28:51,294 --> 00:28:53,694 We're wanting meaningful change because a lot of 777 00:28:53,694 --> 00:28:55,315 people, they talk about, 778 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,720 doing this, taking that, doing that, doing another 779 00:28:58,720 --> 00:28:59,220 consultation. 780 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,339 And it really is vital that consultation 781 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,059 of disabled people in STEM, 782 00:29:05,679 --> 00:29:06,419 is done, 783 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,105 is not useful if the wrong group is 784 00:29:10,065 --> 00:29:11,525 interviewed for ideas. 785 00:29:11,984 --> 00:29:14,804 And it's just survey after survey after survey 786 00:29:14,944 --> 00:29:16,005 that needs to change. 787 00:29:16,384 --> 00:29:16,884 Action 788 00:29:17,265 --> 00:29:19,984 actually is needed now because we've had enough 789 00:29:19,984 --> 00:29:20,644 of surveys. 790 00:29:21,829 --> 00:29:23,589 Change needs to happen. And this is part 791 00:29:23,589 --> 00:29:25,930 of the paradigm shift that we're really needing 792 00:29:26,549 --> 00:29:29,109 to take effect, really. We need to move 793 00:29:29,109 --> 00:29:29,609 towards 794 00:29:30,309 --> 00:29:31,849 having research culture 795 00:29:32,390 --> 00:29:34,250 becoming much more accessible 796 00:29:34,549 --> 00:29:35,369 and inclusive 797 00:29:36,045 --> 00:29:38,205 for disabled people, which is why we've got 798 00:29:38,205 --> 00:29:38,785 the recommendations 799 00:29:39,805 --> 00:29:42,384 for getting policies in place, 800 00:29:42,765 --> 00:29:43,985 making things more, 801 00:29:45,244 --> 00:29:47,805 equitable as well as accessible, as well as 802 00:29:47,805 --> 00:29:48,305 intersectional. 803 00:29:50,990 --> 00:29:53,630 So we're just getting as much attention, as 804 00:29:53,630 --> 00:29:56,269 much noise as we can, getting the attention 805 00:29:56,269 --> 00:29:56,929 of policymakers, 806 00:29:57,630 --> 00:30:00,529 people in senior positions in institutions, 807 00:30:01,470 --> 00:30:03,970 in the funding bodies, in government, 808 00:30:04,694 --> 00:30:07,335 getting them to listen and engage with this 809 00:30:07,335 --> 00:30:07,835 because 810 00:30:08,214 --> 00:30:08,714 unless 811 00:30:09,095 --> 00:30:09,835 those people 812 00:30:10,375 --> 00:30:11,115 are engaged, 813 00:30:11,494 --> 00:30:14,454 it's going to continue having some of the 814 00:30:14,454 --> 00:30:14,954 barriers, 815 00:30:16,294 --> 00:30:18,349 that we face on the policy level, on 816 00:30:18,349 --> 00:30:21,009 the strategies level, because these are the people 817 00:30:21,230 --> 00:30:24,269 who make these decisions, make these choices, send 818 00:30:24,269 --> 00:30:25,250 out these messages. 819 00:30:25,950 --> 00:30:26,450 And 820 00:30:26,909 --> 00:30:28,750 if we can have pressure coming from the 821 00:30:28,750 --> 00:30:29,569 top down 822 00:30:29,869 --> 00:30:30,929 to change, 823 00:30:31,674 --> 00:30:34,075 it's much more likely that there will be 824 00:30:34,075 --> 00:30:36,954 a shift. So it's absolutely vital that momentum 825 00:30:36,954 --> 00:30:38,255 has kept up about this 826 00:30:38,714 --> 00:30:40,575 and that we keep talking 827 00:30:40,954 --> 00:30:43,775 about these barriers, talking about what 828 00:30:44,250 --> 00:30:47,369 changes are needed and actually getting people to 829 00:30:47,369 --> 00:30:48,910 do something about this. 830 00:30:50,730 --> 00:30:52,730 Well, that's great. Thank you. Well, thanks for 831 00:30:52,730 --> 00:30:54,809 your time to, come and explain all of 832 00:30:54,809 --> 00:30:57,210 this to us. And it really does highlight, 833 00:30:57,210 --> 00:30:58,430 you know, the many challenges, 834 00:30:58,904 --> 00:31:01,065 that disabled people in science still have to 835 00:31:01,065 --> 00:31:01,565 overcome. 836 00:31:02,025 --> 00:31:03,005 But I guess also 837 00:31:03,305 --> 00:31:05,225 how, you know, even a few steps taken 838 00:31:05,225 --> 00:31:07,785 by all of us can hugely improve the 839 00:31:07,785 --> 00:31:08,285 situation. 840 00:31:08,984 --> 00:31:11,065 So many thanks again, for joining us on 841 00:31:11,065 --> 00:31:13,325 the podcast today. You're very, very welcome. 842 00:31:21,839 --> 00:31:23,859 That was Francesca DiDato 843 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:25,859 of Lancaster University 844 00:31:26,559 --> 00:31:29,380 speaking to Physics World's Michael Banks. 845 00:31:29,884 --> 00:31:31,984 Thanks to both of them for a fascinating 846 00:31:32,125 --> 00:31:32,625 conversation. 847 00:31:33,644 --> 00:31:35,984 I'll put a link to the white paper 848 00:31:36,204 --> 00:31:38,304 into the notes for this podcast. 849 00:31:38,924 --> 00:31:40,924 And I'm afraid that's all the time we 850 00:31:40,924 --> 00:31:43,424 have for this week. Thanks to our producer, 851 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:44,740 Fred Isles. 852 00:31:45,279 --> 00:31:47,619 We'll be back again soon. Bye.