1 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,039 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly 2 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:11,539 podcast. 3 00:00:11,839 --> 00:00:13,139 I'm Hamish Johnston. 4 00:00:13,634 --> 00:00:14,375 In this episode, 5 00:00:14,675 --> 00:00:16,295 we explore how pictures 6 00:00:16,675 --> 00:00:18,775 can be used to teach the fundamentals 7 00:00:19,315 --> 00:00:20,774 of quantum physics 8 00:00:21,155 --> 00:00:21,894 to everyone. 9 00:00:22,755 --> 00:00:25,815 But first, a message from IOP publishing, 10 00:00:26,275 --> 00:00:28,214 which brings you Physics World 11 00:00:28,609 --> 00:00:32,310 and also publishes an impressive range of scholarly 12 00:00:32,370 --> 00:00:32,870 journals, 13 00:00:33,329 --> 00:00:34,390 conference proceedings, 14 00:00:34,850 --> 00:00:35,750 and ebooks. 15 00:00:36,850 --> 00:00:40,070 You can download the book, The Ringed Planet 16 00:00:40,370 --> 00:00:41,350 second edition, 17 00:00:41,984 --> 00:00:44,804 for free for a limited time only 18 00:00:45,184 --> 00:00:51,204 at i0ppublishing.org/theringedplanet 19 00:00:51,585 --> 00:00:52,484 free book. 20 00:00:53,104 --> 00:00:55,924 The book is a must read on Saturn 21 00:00:56,189 --> 00:00:57,809 and the Cassini mission. 22 00:00:58,429 --> 00:01:01,329 And you can also check out the updated 23 00:01:01,710 --> 00:01:02,530 and expanded 24 00:01:02,909 --> 00:01:05,009 third edition by Joshua 25 00:01:05,549 --> 00:01:06,049 Colwell, 26 00:01:06,430 --> 00:01:08,290 which is hot off the press. 27 00:01:08,909 --> 00:01:11,475 You can find it with all of I 28 00:01:11,475 --> 00:01:11,975 OPP's 29 00:01:12,355 --> 00:01:12,855 ebooks 30 00:01:13,314 --> 00:01:20,935 at i0ppublishing.org/publications/ebooks. 31 00:01:21,475 --> 00:01:24,355 And while you're browsing titles, remember that you 32 00:01:24,355 --> 00:01:26,760 can always read the first chapters 33 00:01:27,060 --> 00:01:27,799 of all 34 00:01:28,180 --> 00:01:30,760 I OPP ebooks for free. 35 00:01:31,380 --> 00:01:33,719 And I'll include both of those URLs 36 00:01:34,340 --> 00:01:36,359 in the notes for this episode. 37 00:01:37,540 --> 00:01:40,520 Today, quantum physics is enjoying a renaissance 38 00:01:41,084 --> 00:01:42,545 in science and technology. 39 00:01:43,484 --> 00:01:45,185 After decades of speculation, 40 00:01:45,885 --> 00:01:49,484 quantum computers are now real things, and quantum 41 00:01:49,484 --> 00:01:52,204 sensors are being used in a wide range 42 00:01:52,204 --> 00:01:53,025 of applications 43 00:01:53,790 --> 00:01:54,609 from underground 44 00:01:54,990 --> 00:01:55,490 surveying 45 00:01:55,950 --> 00:01:57,810 to measuring brain activity. 46 00:01:58,829 --> 00:01:59,730 As the technologies 47 00:02:00,109 --> 00:02:02,770 we use become more quantum in nature, 48 00:02:03,150 --> 00:02:05,890 it follows that everyone should have a basic 49 00:02:06,030 --> 00:02:06,530 understanding 50 00:02:06,990 --> 00:02:08,370 of quantum physics, 51 00:02:08,985 --> 00:02:12,584 something that today remains mostly the preserve of 52 00:02:12,584 --> 00:02:13,084 scientists, 53 00:02:13,625 --> 00:02:14,125 engineers, 54 00:02:14,584 --> 00:02:15,485 and mathematicians. 55 00:02:16,745 --> 00:02:19,705 To explore how quantum physics can be taught 56 00:02:19,705 --> 00:02:20,364 to everyone, 57 00:02:20,824 --> 00:02:22,604 I'm joined by Arjun 58 00:02:22,985 --> 00:02:23,485 Dovin, 59 00:02:24,419 --> 00:02:27,080 Alex Kissinger, and Bob Kuka, 60 00:02:27,460 --> 00:02:29,479 who are all based in The UK. 61 00:02:30,819 --> 00:02:33,560 Bob is chief scientist at Quantinium, 62 00:02:34,180 --> 00:02:37,719 which develops quantum computing hardware and software. 63 00:02:38,825 --> 00:02:42,284 Alex is associate professor of quantum computing 64 00:02:42,665 --> 00:02:44,365 at the University of Oxford, 65 00:02:44,985 --> 00:02:47,245 and Arjun is studying mathematics 66 00:02:47,705 --> 00:02:49,325 at the University of Durham. 67 00:02:50,185 --> 00:02:52,504 Alex and Bob have developed a way of 68 00:02:52,504 --> 00:02:53,004 teaching 69 00:02:53,305 --> 00:02:54,365 quantum physics 70 00:02:54,930 --> 00:02:55,830 using diagrams. 71 00:02:56,610 --> 00:02:58,229 And in 2023, 72 00:02:58,689 --> 00:02:59,989 Oxford and Quantinium 73 00:03:00,449 --> 00:03:01,269 joined forces 74 00:03:01,650 --> 00:03:04,689 to use this method in a pilot summer 75 00:03:04,689 --> 00:03:05,189 program 76 00:03:05,569 --> 00:03:08,389 for fifteen to seventeen year olds, 77 00:03:08,715 --> 00:03:09,534 and Arjun 78 00:03:09,835 --> 00:03:11,375 was one of their students. 79 00:03:12,075 --> 00:03:14,335 Hi, Alex, Arjun, and Bob. 80 00:03:14,635 --> 00:03:15,935 Welcome to the podcast. 81 00:03:16,955 --> 00:03:17,775 So, Bob, 82 00:03:18,155 --> 00:03:19,534 could can we start off 83 00:03:20,314 --> 00:03:20,795 by, 84 00:03:21,194 --> 00:03:24,629 having you explain why the time has come 85 00:03:24,849 --> 00:03:27,270 to teach quantum physics to everyone, 86 00:03:27,889 --> 00:03:29,510 not just physics students? 87 00:03:30,370 --> 00:03:32,770 So what's happening at the moment or is 88 00:03:32,770 --> 00:03:35,010 about to happen, and people should have noticed 89 00:03:35,010 --> 00:03:36,530 this, I guess, if they're listening to a 90 00:03:36,530 --> 00:03:38,805 podcast like this, is that we're, like, on 91 00:03:38,805 --> 00:03:39,625 the verge of 92 00:03:40,324 --> 00:03:42,485 a a technological revolution, which is gonna be 93 00:03:42,485 --> 00:03:44,644 the quantum revolution. Some people call this the 94 00:03:44,644 --> 00:03:47,784 second quantum revolution after what happened, of course, 95 00:03:48,004 --> 00:03:49,465 in the beginning of the previous 96 00:03:50,740 --> 00:03:51,240 century. 97 00:03:51,860 --> 00:03:52,599 And and 98 00:03:53,219 --> 00:03:53,719 so 99 00:03:54,260 --> 00:03:55,480 this is gonna impact, 100 00:03:56,180 --> 00:03:57,800 many aspects of our life, 101 00:03:59,060 --> 00:04:01,219 very soon for many people. And so you 102 00:04:01,219 --> 00:04:02,840 want some form of inclusivity 103 00:04:03,675 --> 00:04:04,414 with respect 104 00:04:04,875 --> 00:04:07,694 to people knowing what is going on. 105 00:04:08,314 --> 00:04:10,875 So it's usually, quantum is conceived as something 106 00:04:10,875 --> 00:04:11,375 that 107 00:04:11,834 --> 00:04:14,074 you need a university degree and and or 108 00:04:14,074 --> 00:04:15,854 a or a PhD to understand. 109 00:04:16,470 --> 00:04:18,490 And now we have the tool at hand 110 00:04:18,629 --> 00:04:21,430 for, like, a much broader, like, portion of 111 00:04:21,430 --> 00:04:21,930 society, 112 00:04:22,310 --> 00:04:24,230 even not everybody, because we like to say 113 00:04:24,230 --> 00:04:25,370 quantum for everyone, 114 00:04:26,069 --> 00:04:29,189 can actually understand quantum and grasp the basic 115 00:04:29,189 --> 00:04:29,689 concepts. 116 00:04:30,084 --> 00:04:32,164 That's basically what this podcast is about. Some 117 00:04:32,164 --> 00:04:32,664 work, 118 00:04:33,125 --> 00:04:35,685 Alex and I did, some experiments with it 119 00:04:35,685 --> 00:04:37,444 a little bit back to show that what 120 00:04:37,444 --> 00:04:40,664 I'm claiming here is actually true. Now inclusivity 121 00:04:41,125 --> 00:04:42,345 means, for example, 122 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,680 that people students can learn this at high 123 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:47,600 school or later, but also that people in 124 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,939 countries which are usually not that much subject 125 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,980 to to technological things, like in Africa, 126 00:04:53,439 --> 00:04:54,580 also can be part 127 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,245 of this gig. And maybe that's something that's 128 00:04:57,245 --> 00:04:59,004 gonna come up later in this in in 129 00:04:59,004 --> 00:05:01,004 this chat. I actually believe that some non 130 00:05:01,004 --> 00:05:04,125 Western countries actually have an advantage now to 131 00:05:04,125 --> 00:05:06,205 to be inclusive. Now another thing is I 132 00:05:06,205 --> 00:05:07,645 mean, I was asked to speak at the 133 00:05:07,645 --> 00:05:10,019 US capital because this is case of 134 00:05:10,500 --> 00:05:11,000 workforce 135 00:05:11,699 --> 00:05:14,339 preparation, like making the workforce much bigger for 136 00:05:14,339 --> 00:05:16,039 quantum, which is also necessary. 137 00:05:16,500 --> 00:05:18,899 And I would also bring in accountability here 138 00:05:18,899 --> 00:05:20,899 because of what we are seeing now with 139 00:05:20,899 --> 00:05:23,295 AIs. Nobody has a clue what's going on. 140 00:05:23,775 --> 00:05:25,154 And that's not very healthy, 141 00:05:25,455 --> 00:05:26,975 especially if only a few people in the 142 00:05:26,975 --> 00:05:28,574 world with a lot of billions can make 143 00:05:28,574 --> 00:05:30,895 all the decisions while nobody else knows what's 144 00:05:30,895 --> 00:05:32,975 going on. So that's the last one. And, 145 00:05:33,055 --> 00:05:34,415 I mean, as as a last command, I 146 00:05:34,415 --> 00:05:37,079 would say, quantum comes with a radical shift 147 00:05:37,639 --> 00:05:39,639 in worldview, in the way we perceive the 148 00:05:39,639 --> 00:05:42,439 world, not in contrast to classical physics, but 149 00:05:42,439 --> 00:05:44,039 I would actually take this back two thousand 150 00:05:44,039 --> 00:05:46,360 five hundred years to the presocratics. But maybe 151 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:47,659 we can talk about that later. 152 00:05:48,599 --> 00:05:50,439 I see. And and, Bob, this is, I 153 00:05:50,439 --> 00:05:52,814 mean, this isn't just a concept for you. 154 00:05:52,814 --> 00:05:53,294 You, 155 00:05:53,935 --> 00:05:55,954 you have spent a lot of time, 156 00:05:56,814 --> 00:05:59,055 trying to come up with ways of of, 157 00:05:59,055 --> 00:06:00,034 I suppose, teaching 158 00:06:00,334 --> 00:06:02,834 quantum physics to to non physicists, 159 00:06:03,539 --> 00:06:06,259 to the to the general public. And and 160 00:06:06,259 --> 00:06:08,120 one thing that you've done is you've coauthored 161 00:06:08,259 --> 00:06:10,519 a book called Quantum in Pictures. 162 00:06:10,979 --> 00:06:12,680 And that takes a a graphical 163 00:06:13,060 --> 00:06:15,479 approach with no sort of conventional 164 00:06:15,860 --> 00:06:16,360 equations 165 00:06:16,855 --> 00:06:19,675 to teach quantum physics to a wide audience. 166 00:06:19,975 --> 00:06:22,375 Can you describe the the approach that you've 167 00:06:22,375 --> 00:06:23,435 taken in the book? 168 00:06:23,735 --> 00:06:25,595 I mean, this was a very long process. 169 00:06:25,735 --> 00:06:26,055 And, 170 00:06:26,694 --> 00:06:28,714 so so my background historically, 171 00:06:29,574 --> 00:06:31,274 going back to the nineteen nineties, 172 00:06:31,829 --> 00:06:33,669 is is kind of more with a new 173 00:06:33,669 --> 00:06:35,910 language for quantum over or a new mathematics 174 00:06:35,910 --> 00:06:37,910 for quantum. And this goes back to a 175 00:06:37,910 --> 00:06:38,410 question 176 00:06:38,790 --> 00:06:41,370 of John von Neumann post in nineteen thirty 177 00:06:41,750 --> 00:06:44,229 nineteen thirty five when he based John von 178 00:06:44,229 --> 00:06:46,229 Neumann is the father of the usual quantum 179 00:06:46,229 --> 00:06:46,729 mechanical, 180 00:06:47,355 --> 00:06:49,675 formalism, Hilbert space, also being the father of 181 00:06:49,675 --> 00:06:51,675 the computers we're using here to talk, by 182 00:06:51,675 --> 00:06:53,754 the way. And he denounced his own quantum 183 00:06:53,754 --> 00:06:56,235 mechanical formulas in 1935. 184 00:06:56,235 --> 00:06:58,335 So I came from a culture, a community 185 00:06:58,634 --> 00:07:00,475 where we try to come up with something 186 00:07:00,475 --> 00:07:00,975 new. 187 00:07:01,589 --> 00:07:03,469 And then I was very lucky to actually 188 00:07:03,750 --> 00:07:05,509 with a background as a physicist to end 189 00:07:05,509 --> 00:07:07,129 up in a computer science department 190 00:07:07,430 --> 00:07:09,509 in Oxford where where Alex now is a 191 00:07:09,509 --> 00:07:10,949 is a professor. I used to be a 192 00:07:10,949 --> 00:07:12,009 professor there. 193 00:07:12,310 --> 00:07:12,969 And then 194 00:07:13,745 --> 00:07:15,904 new ways of viewing at the world came 195 00:07:15,904 --> 00:07:18,144 from computer science, which are more about thinking 196 00:07:18,144 --> 00:07:20,544 of things in terms of processes and thinking 197 00:07:20,544 --> 00:07:21,925 of things in how 198 00:07:22,464 --> 00:07:25,745 stuff composes together, which are very fundamental computer 199 00:07:25,745 --> 00:07:26,245 science, 200 00:07:26,850 --> 00:07:29,250 concepts which a physicist would typically not think 201 00:07:29,250 --> 00:07:32,610 about in first order. And that basically gave 202 00:07:32,610 --> 00:07:34,290 a completely new view on how to build 203 00:07:34,290 --> 00:07:35,750 a quantum mechanical formalism. 204 00:07:36,209 --> 00:07:38,290 Our first idea was basically to build the 205 00:07:38,290 --> 00:07:38,790 formalism 206 00:07:39,169 --> 00:07:41,569 as a high level language for quantum, just 207 00:07:41,569 --> 00:07:43,894 like any programming language is a high level 208 00:07:43,894 --> 00:07:46,294 language for zeros and ones in your classical 209 00:07:46,294 --> 00:07:48,055 computer. And we want to do the do 210 00:07:48,055 --> 00:07:49,974 the same for quantum, but then very early 211 00:07:49,974 --> 00:07:51,495 on, I mean, we I started this in 212 00:07:51,495 --> 00:07:54,074 02/2003, '2 thousand '4. In 02/2005, 213 00:07:54,134 --> 00:07:54,875 we realized 214 00:07:55,420 --> 00:07:57,680 that the language we used were actually pictures. 215 00:07:57,900 --> 00:08:00,160 And these pictures go back to Roger Penrose. 216 00:08:00,379 --> 00:08:03,259 When Roger Penrose was an undergraduate student, he 217 00:08:03,259 --> 00:08:04,779 actually had to ill and he had to 218 00:08:04,779 --> 00:08:06,240 learn relativity theory. 219 00:08:06,699 --> 00:08:08,939 He basically realized that the symbols you typically 220 00:08:08,939 --> 00:08:11,435 use in relativity theory could be But 221 00:08:12,774 --> 00:08:14,634 it was only in the late nineties that 222 00:08:14,855 --> 00:08:16,935 people realized that it was actually gen genuine 223 00:08:16,935 --> 00:08:19,495 mathematic. And then over in a process of 224 00:08:19,495 --> 00:08:22,294 twenty years, we've a great involvement with with 225 00:08:22,294 --> 00:08:25,355 Alex. We actually ended up with a formalism, 226 00:08:25,495 --> 00:08:26,394 which was entirely 227 00:08:27,199 --> 00:08:29,839 diagrammatic. The first the first subject were actually 228 00:08:29,839 --> 00:08:31,779 the students at University of Oxford, 229 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,639 like postgraduate students. So Alex and I, we 230 00:08:34,639 --> 00:08:36,480 together started a course. And in the process 231 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,799 of the the the textbook of this course 232 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:41,620 is now a book called, Picturing Quantum Processes. 233 00:08:42,024 --> 00:08:42,924 It's thousand pages. 234 00:08:43,945 --> 00:08:45,565 And so but then 235 00:08:45,945 --> 00:08:48,584 that book was not suitable for people without 236 00:08:48,584 --> 00:08:51,404 the right mathematical background. And then later, 237 00:08:51,945 --> 00:08:52,605 we basically, 238 00:08:53,784 --> 00:08:55,889 wrote this new book where we said, okay. 239 00:08:55,970 --> 00:08:58,070 There shouldn't be any a requirements 240 00:08:58,690 --> 00:09:00,850 in there anymore. So I'll end up, I'll 241 00:09:00,850 --> 00:09:02,929 end over to Alex who's now more hands 242 00:09:02,929 --> 00:09:04,230 on on these things. 243 00:09:06,049 --> 00:09:09,105 Yeah. So I've I think, really, for me, 244 00:09:09,105 --> 00:09:11,345 this started back around 2012 245 00:09:11,345 --> 00:09:14,325 or so, when when Bob and I revamped 246 00:09:14,544 --> 00:09:16,565 the quantum computing course here. 247 00:09:17,424 --> 00:09:19,504 So during my PhD, a lot of this 248 00:09:19,504 --> 00:09:22,144 early stuff about processes and things that Bob 249 00:09:22,144 --> 00:09:23,125 was talking about 250 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,019 was all formalized using a kind of mathematics 251 00:09:27,079 --> 00:09:28,379 called category theory, 252 00:09:29,639 --> 00:09:31,720 which which is just a very abstract way 253 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:32,620 of talking about 254 00:09:33,879 --> 00:09:35,659 processes in a general sense. 255 00:09:36,850 --> 00:09:38,355 But sort of toward the end of my 256 00:09:38,355 --> 00:09:40,754 PhD, we realized that the mathematics there wasn't 257 00:09:40,754 --> 00:09:42,754 so necessary, and you could sort of pull 258 00:09:42,754 --> 00:09:44,695 that out, teach everything with pictures. 259 00:09:45,875 --> 00:09:47,555 And then over about a decade of me 260 00:09:47,555 --> 00:09:49,955 and Bob teaching this course, we were teaching 261 00:09:49,955 --> 00:09:51,795 people from a lot of different backgrounds, so 262 00:09:51,795 --> 00:09:53,129 not just physics and maths, 263 00:09:53,769 --> 00:09:56,169 but also engineering and some social sciences and 264 00:09:56,169 --> 00:09:58,429 stuff, and realized that that you can actually 265 00:09:59,210 --> 00:10:01,850 teach quantum concepts to people, you know, much 266 00:10:01,850 --> 00:10:02,590 more broadly 267 00:10:03,049 --> 00:10:06,009 than that. And, I think that, that Bob 268 00:10:06,009 --> 00:10:07,850 and Stefano's book and then and then this 269 00:10:07,850 --> 00:10:09,075 experiment that we did last 270 00:10:09,634 --> 00:10:10,674 year with high school students was kind of 271 00:10:10,674 --> 00:10:11,335 the natural 272 00:10:11,715 --> 00:10:13,794 next step in that in in in making 273 00:10:13,794 --> 00:10:15,495 that a bit bit more broad. 274 00:10:16,514 --> 00:10:18,995 I see. And and in quantum mechanics is 275 00:10:19,154 --> 00:10:19,735 I mean, 276 00:10:20,035 --> 00:10:22,134 is there a a sort of long tradition 277 00:10:22,195 --> 00:10:23,659 of sort of simplifying 278 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,919 things by well, maybe not simplifying is is 279 00:10:26,919 --> 00:10:28,379 is not the right word, but 280 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:31,419 expressing things in terms of 281 00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:32,759 images or, 282 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,000 diagrams? Because, you know, I'm sort of thinking 283 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:35,500 of, 284 00:10:37,694 --> 00:10:38,194 matrix, 285 00:10:38,735 --> 00:10:41,154 mechanics, and then you've got Dirac notation 286 00:10:41,694 --> 00:10:44,414 and Feynman diagrams. There, you know, there seems 287 00:10:44,414 --> 00:10:47,074 to be a a real desire amongst physicists 288 00:10:47,214 --> 00:10:50,115 to use graphical means to understand 289 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,200 quantum physics. And, do you see the these 290 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,340 pictures as a as a natural evolution from 291 00:10:57,639 --> 00:10:58,779 from those concepts? 292 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,600 Yes and no. Like, know whether the desire 293 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:03,259 is there. 294 00:11:03,684 --> 00:11:05,684 Because, I mean, one of the big, well 295 00:11:05,684 --> 00:11:07,704 known examples are Feynman diagrams. 296 00:11:08,164 --> 00:11:10,424 So which Feynman diagrams are a calculation 297 00:11:11,125 --> 00:11:13,845 tool in quantum field theory to make your 298 00:11:13,845 --> 00:11:17,009 com computation much easier. Feynman had to fight 299 00:11:17,009 --> 00:11:19,250 really, really hard to get him through. Although 300 00:11:19,250 --> 00:11:21,730 now everybody sort of assumes, okay. That's that's, 301 00:11:21,730 --> 00:11:22,230 like, 302 00:11:22,929 --> 00:11:23,990 totally straightforwardly 303 00:11:24,370 --> 00:11:26,870 acceptable. No. It wasn't like that at all. 304 00:11:27,009 --> 00:11:29,570 And when you mentioned direct notation, I remember 305 00:11:29,570 --> 00:11:31,134 I was a student in the in the 306 00:11:31,134 --> 00:11:34,514 nineties in a mathematical physics, theoretical physics group. 307 00:11:34,575 --> 00:11:36,835 People looked down on direct notation 308 00:11:37,215 --> 00:11:39,154 because it didn't have the sort of 309 00:11:40,095 --> 00:11:42,195 what they assume sophistication 310 00:11:42,575 --> 00:11:44,195 of the infinite dimensional 311 00:11:44,575 --> 00:11:47,330 complicated stuff. Okay. I'm gonna say something sociological 312 00:11:47,389 --> 00:11:47,889 here. 313 00:11:48,509 --> 00:11:50,750 So so the science as we know it 314 00:11:50,750 --> 00:11:52,990 physically is a very much used to be 315 00:11:52,990 --> 00:11:55,309 a very much white male dominated thing with 316 00:11:55,309 --> 00:11:57,169 a lot of ego and machoism. 317 00:11:57,789 --> 00:11:59,764 And so when I was a student in 318 00:11:59,764 --> 00:12:01,144 the '90, it was really about 319 00:12:01,524 --> 00:12:03,384 the more complicated it is, the better. 320 00:12:04,084 --> 00:12:06,664 And we had to fight really, really hard 321 00:12:06,884 --> 00:12:09,865 to push this formalism through in the mainstream 322 00:12:10,004 --> 00:12:10,504 communities 323 00:12:11,070 --> 00:12:12,830 exactly for the reason that I said. People 324 00:12:12,830 --> 00:12:15,070 said, this can't something simple like that can't 325 00:12:15,070 --> 00:12:15,809 be useful 326 00:12:16,110 --> 00:12:17,889 in any way. Now meanwhile 327 00:12:18,269 --> 00:12:20,590 and, actually, Alex is more active in in 328 00:12:20,590 --> 00:12:23,230 that than me. All the main players in 329 00:12:23,230 --> 00:12:26,565 quantum computing, quantum industry, they're all using this. 330 00:12:27,044 --> 00:12:29,845 Now it's so widespread, but it took us 331 00:12:29,845 --> 00:12:32,345 so long to fight and to get, 332 00:12:32,965 --> 00:12:36,325 things things basically published and and accepted. And 333 00:12:36,325 --> 00:12:37,764 part of the thing we had to do, 334 00:12:37,764 --> 00:12:40,679 which is what Alex alluded to earlier, is 335 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,559 to use this abstract mathematical language of category 336 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:45,559 theory to make it look more difficult than 337 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:46,620 it actually is. 338 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,179 And that's how we got our papers accepted. 339 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,059 We had to get rid of that stigma 340 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,360 of of this category theory, and that's why 341 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:55,934 we wrote the big book because there was 342 00:12:56,095 --> 00:12:58,034 no mention of category theory anymore. 343 00:12:58,815 --> 00:13:01,154 Okay. And I'd like to move on from, 344 00:13:01,534 --> 00:13:03,875 from from books into teaching. 345 00:13:04,495 --> 00:13:06,995 And in in 2023, 346 00:13:08,429 --> 00:13:11,389 Bob and Alex, I believe you you're both 347 00:13:11,389 --> 00:13:12,610 involved in a 348 00:13:12,910 --> 00:13:15,570 ten week summer course of short lectures 349 00:13:16,029 --> 00:13:19,629 that taught British teenagers, I think, age 15 350 00:13:19,629 --> 00:13:20,450 to 17, 351 00:13:20,884 --> 00:13:23,784 how to apply the the concepts in quantum 352 00:13:24,164 --> 00:13:24,985 in pictures. 353 00:13:26,485 --> 00:13:28,745 Alex, can you tell us about that course? 354 00:13:29,924 --> 00:13:31,605 Yeah. So this was a course. It was 355 00:13:31,605 --> 00:13:33,845 also a kind of a pilot experiment for 356 00:13:33,845 --> 00:13:35,625 this this style of education. 357 00:13:36,519 --> 00:13:37,960 So so it was a team. It was 358 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,360 the project was jointly done by Quantinium and 359 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:41,659 Oxford Computer Science, 360 00:13:42,919 --> 00:13:43,980 where we took, 361 00:13:44,759 --> 00:13:46,220 in the end, about 50, 362 00:13:47,799 --> 00:13:48,860 UK High Schoolers, 363 00:13:49,875 --> 00:13:51,794 from a pool of about a thousand people 364 00:13:51,794 --> 00:13:52,454 that volunteered, 365 00:13:53,634 --> 00:13:55,574 and gave them a course, 366 00:13:56,595 --> 00:13:58,754 as as close as we could kinda within 367 00:13:58,754 --> 00:13:59,495 our constraints 368 00:13:59,954 --> 00:14:00,774 to a 369 00:14:01,409 --> 00:14:03,190 Oxford Cambridge style 370 00:14:05,089 --> 00:14:06,870 graduate graduate course. 371 00:14:07,570 --> 00:14:09,509 So it was eight weeks of lectures, 372 00:14:10,370 --> 00:14:11,669 along with small group, 373 00:14:12,370 --> 00:14:14,709 tutorial sessions. So this was all done online, 374 00:14:16,164 --> 00:14:18,345 and then followed by a, 375 00:14:18,725 --> 00:14:20,105 take home exam. 376 00:14:21,764 --> 00:14:22,245 So, 377 00:14:22,644 --> 00:14:25,284 the lectures were prerecorded and shared with the 378 00:14:25,284 --> 00:14:26,904 students on on YouTube. 379 00:14:27,629 --> 00:14:29,389 And then the and then the small group, 380 00:14:29,629 --> 00:14:31,870 tutorial sessions were were just, like, 381 00:14:32,750 --> 00:14:34,290 Zoom chat type things. 382 00:14:35,389 --> 00:14:37,230 So it was it was it was intended 383 00:14:37,230 --> 00:14:39,090 to be a kind of a interactive thing, 384 00:14:39,704 --> 00:14:41,464 but then but then also to to get 385 00:14:41,544 --> 00:14:43,544 to give a bit of this, sort of 386 00:14:43,544 --> 00:14:44,924 university style experience. 387 00:14:46,264 --> 00:14:48,584 I see. And and we've also well, we 388 00:14:48,664 --> 00:14:50,584 we're we're very lucky to have a a 389 00:14:50,584 --> 00:14:51,084 graduate 390 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,459 of that summer course with us, Arjun. 391 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:57,259 Why did you, 392 00:14:58,199 --> 00:15:00,679 decide to take part in, in this course? 393 00:15:00,679 --> 00:15:02,860 Did you did you already have an interest 394 00:15:03,079 --> 00:15:05,799 in quantum physics? Or were were you just 395 00:15:05,799 --> 00:15:07,034 curious to, 396 00:15:07,995 --> 00:15:09,294 Why did you sign up? 397 00:15:10,714 --> 00:15:12,634 Yes. So I think it's probably more in 398 00:15:12,634 --> 00:15:14,554 regards to the latter part. I I would 399 00:15:14,554 --> 00:15:17,214 say I became, like, fascinated with quantum physics. 400 00:15:18,475 --> 00:15:21,049 I remember at that point, I had just 401 00:15:21,049 --> 00:15:22,889 finished year 12, and, 402 00:15:23,690 --> 00:15:26,429 I took a level physics. So by the 403 00:15:26,649 --> 00:15:29,610 summer term, we started doing quantum phenomena. And 404 00:15:29,610 --> 00:15:31,289 I remember specifically, it was, 405 00:15:32,250 --> 00:15:34,555 we did this experiment with, I believe it's 406 00:15:34,555 --> 00:15:36,555 called, like, an electron gun, and we were 407 00:15:36,555 --> 00:15:38,415 looking at electron diffraction. 408 00:15:40,154 --> 00:15:41,915 And I just thought, like, the concept of, 409 00:15:41,915 --> 00:15:44,235 like, wave particle duality was just so cool. 410 00:15:44,235 --> 00:15:44,735 Like, 411 00:15:45,355 --> 00:15:46,919 I thought it was definitely something I would 412 00:15:47,879 --> 00:15:49,559 I would find fascinating, just the fact that 413 00:15:49,559 --> 00:15:51,500 it's so new and it's so unusual. 414 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,500 And so I suppose that made me aware. 415 00:15:55,559 --> 00:15:57,980 And then it was actually my friend who, 416 00:15:58,839 --> 00:16:00,220 was recommended the course 417 00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:02,444 by his teacher. So then he sent it 418 00:16:02,444 --> 00:16:04,365 to me and suggested, like, overshoot this together 419 00:16:04,365 --> 00:16:06,304 could be, something fun. 420 00:16:07,245 --> 00:16:09,324 I see. And and what did you enjoy 421 00:16:09,324 --> 00:16:09,824 most, 422 00:16:10,524 --> 00:16:11,664 about the program? 423 00:16:14,764 --> 00:16:16,204 Well, I I would say first thing, the 424 00:16:16,204 --> 00:16:17,580 lectures, it had to be Bob's, 425 00:16:19,340 --> 00:16:21,899 like, use of props and, like, just funny 426 00:16:21,899 --> 00:16:24,220 intros. That's always great. I remember we had 427 00:16:24,220 --> 00:16:26,139 this amazing skeleton and the spiders. That was 428 00:16:26,139 --> 00:16:26,960 always fun. 429 00:16:27,820 --> 00:16:30,615 But I I suppose I actually enjoyed just 430 00:16:30,695 --> 00:16:32,315 getting more into 431 00:16:32,855 --> 00:16:35,034 the whole, like, making algorithms with 432 00:16:35,575 --> 00:16:36,315 the diagrams. 433 00:16:36,695 --> 00:16:38,054 And I suppose it's just a different way 434 00:16:38,054 --> 00:16:39,014 of thinking because, 435 00:16:39,975 --> 00:16:41,254 I mean, from school, I would never would 436 00:16:41,254 --> 00:16:43,254 have thought of using pictures to do math. 437 00:16:43,254 --> 00:16:45,509 I always would have kept separate ideas. So 438 00:16:45,509 --> 00:16:47,529 I think that in itself was quite interesting. 439 00:16:48,149 --> 00:16:49,830 I see. And and was it fun? Was 440 00:16:49,830 --> 00:16:51,750 it was it a fun thing to do, 441 00:16:51,750 --> 00:16:53,750 or or was it hard work, or was 442 00:16:53,750 --> 00:16:54,809 it a bit of both? 443 00:16:55,269 --> 00:16:56,549 I'd say a bit of both. Like, it 444 00:16:56,549 --> 00:16:57,929 was definitely enjoyable throughout. 445 00:16:59,095 --> 00:17:00,615 It did take some time to get used 446 00:17:00,615 --> 00:17:01,115 to. 447 00:17:02,214 --> 00:17:04,535 Although, interestingly, I feel like these are pictures 448 00:17:04,535 --> 00:17:06,375 that feel quite intuitive because it's something, I 449 00:17:06,375 --> 00:17:07,275 guess, you can 450 00:17:07,815 --> 00:17:09,515 conceptualize a lot of the times. 451 00:17:09,894 --> 00:17:11,515 I did feel like I did have uncertainty 452 00:17:11,654 --> 00:17:12,394 as to whether 453 00:17:12,750 --> 00:17:14,829 what I was doing was actually correct. So 454 00:17:14,829 --> 00:17:17,710 I think, initially, I did struggle with being 455 00:17:17,710 --> 00:17:20,190 confident in my ideas, but it did feel 456 00:17:20,190 --> 00:17:21,650 pretty intuitive, I'd say. 457 00:17:22,109 --> 00:17:24,109 I see. And and did did you have 458 00:17:24,109 --> 00:17:26,930 much contact with with your fellow students? 459 00:17:27,815 --> 00:17:29,815 Did did you get an idea for for 460 00:17:29,815 --> 00:17:32,134 who they were and and and why they 461 00:17:32,134 --> 00:17:32,795 were there? 462 00:17:34,134 --> 00:17:35,015 Partially. I suppose, 463 00:17:35,575 --> 00:17:37,115 mainly contacts was 464 00:17:37,734 --> 00:17:38,474 through tutorials. 465 00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:41,430 And so I guess there was a there 466 00:17:41,430 --> 00:17:42,789 was a range. There were some people who 467 00:17:42,789 --> 00:17:45,029 would love to, like, also speak up and 468 00:17:45,029 --> 00:17:47,109 we can engage, and some who are more 469 00:17:47,109 --> 00:17:47,609 reserved. 470 00:17:49,109 --> 00:17:50,390 I suppose, Bob, do you have something you'd 471 00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:52,970 like to say? Yeah. Bob, go ahead. So 472 00:17:53,134 --> 00:17:54,755 so we had a lot of restrictions 473 00:17:55,055 --> 00:17:57,295 imposed on us because we were doing an 474 00:17:57,295 --> 00:17:59,535 experiment with minors. So one of the things 475 00:17:59,535 --> 00:18:01,215 we wanted to do is a lot more 476 00:18:01,215 --> 00:18:03,615 social media so that students could interact with 477 00:18:03,615 --> 00:18:06,279 each other, but we were told, no. Not 478 00:18:06,279 --> 00:18:08,440 do that. And so it was quite a 479 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:09,420 bunch of restrictions 480 00:18:10,039 --> 00:18:11,180 that we were imposing 481 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,160 on us to the extent that at some 482 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:14,680 point, I said, no. We are just gonna 483 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:16,599 pull it because this is not a normal 484 00:18:16,599 --> 00:18:19,575 teaching experience. And then Alex convinced me to 485 00:18:19,575 --> 00:18:21,974 to keep going because I thought, okay. This 486 00:18:21,974 --> 00:18:23,734 is not gonna work. This the results are 487 00:18:23,734 --> 00:18:25,974 not gonna be good because this is not 488 00:18:25,974 --> 00:18:27,734 a normal I mean, I should say something 489 00:18:27,734 --> 00:18:30,055 else, and I don't want to embarrass Arjan, 490 00:18:30,055 --> 00:18:32,289 but like, most of the students just had 491 00:18:32,289 --> 00:18:33,190 a black screen. 492 00:18:33,970 --> 00:18:36,609 And and they didn't ask questions. They typed 493 00:18:36,609 --> 00:18:38,769 questions. And then I wrote, like, an email, 494 00:18:38,769 --> 00:18:41,409 a long email saying, please, please, show your 495 00:18:41,409 --> 00:18:44,054 screens and speak. Because as a teacher, we 496 00:18:44,054 --> 00:18:45,835 need to see your facial, like, articulations. 497 00:18:46,375 --> 00:18:47,815 We need to hear the tone of your 498 00:18:47,815 --> 00:18:50,394 voice because that's part of a teaching. Teacher 499 00:18:50,535 --> 00:18:53,575 teacher student interaction. And I think for, yeah, 500 00:18:53,575 --> 00:18:56,054 five seconds, some some screens went down, and 501 00:18:56,054 --> 00:18:57,434 then they were back again. 502 00:19:00,029 --> 00:19:01,230 So so it sounds, 503 00:19:01,630 --> 00:19:02,429 Arjun, that, 504 00:19:02,990 --> 00:19:05,250 the the sort of remote nature of it 505 00:19:06,750 --> 00:19:08,509 was a bit difficult. Or or or I 506 00:19:08,509 --> 00:19:11,089 don't know. Maybe maybe you were happy with, 507 00:19:11,390 --> 00:19:13,825 with that. Or is there anything is there 508 00:19:13,825 --> 00:19:16,384 anything else that you'd add, to what Bob 509 00:19:16,384 --> 00:19:18,465 said in terms of how it could have 510 00:19:18,465 --> 00:19:20,164 been improved? I mean, I'm guessing 511 00:19:20,625 --> 00:19:22,164 actually going to Oxford, 512 00:19:22,785 --> 00:19:24,705 if that was possible and and doing it 513 00:19:24,705 --> 00:19:28,065 in person would have been fantastic, but maybe 514 00:19:28,065 --> 00:19:28,805 not possible. 515 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:30,440 Yes. I think, 516 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:31,420 overall, 517 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,039 I suppose, just naturally teaching online is a 518 00:19:34,039 --> 00:19:35,660 bit like, it can be quite in person. 519 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:38,519 And I guess as Bob said, not many 520 00:19:38,519 --> 00:19:40,759 people did always turn on their cameras or 521 00:19:40,759 --> 00:19:41,259 respond. 522 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,522 I just feel bad sometimes for some of 523 00:19:43,522 --> 00:19:45,724 the tutors because we had that awkward silence 524 00:19:45,724 --> 00:19:46,785 for a couple of seconds. 525 00:19:47,404 --> 00:19:47,904 Mhmm. 526 00:19:48,684 --> 00:19:50,365 But, I mean, I I suppose some benefits 527 00:19:50,365 --> 00:19:52,125 was that sometimes I would I would be 528 00:19:52,125 --> 00:19:53,724 able to message my friends and we could, 529 00:19:53,724 --> 00:19:54,224 like, 530 00:19:55,325 --> 00:19:56,625 we could discuss things, 531 00:19:58,204 --> 00:19:59,105 somewhat freely. 532 00:19:59,750 --> 00:20:01,109 But I guess that, that was not to 533 00:20:01,109 --> 00:20:02,309 the benefit of the tutors because they have 534 00:20:02,309 --> 00:20:03,529 no idea what we're discussing. 535 00:20:06,230 --> 00:20:08,309 But yeah. So so I think just the 536 00:20:08,309 --> 00:20:09,910 online like, as you said, being in person 537 00:20:09,910 --> 00:20:10,730 would have been, 538 00:20:11,190 --> 00:20:12,255 perhaps a bit more 539 00:20:13,214 --> 00:20:14,434 invested. But yeah. 540 00:20:15,134 --> 00:20:17,634 And and so what's your view on quantum 541 00:20:17,694 --> 00:20:18,194 physics, 542 00:20:19,454 --> 00:20:21,134 after having taken the course? Are you 543 00:20:21,934 --> 00:20:24,194 I I I understand you you're at university 544 00:20:24,335 --> 00:20:25,075 at the moment. 545 00:20:25,615 --> 00:20:27,720 Are are are you doing physics? Do you 546 00:20:27,799 --> 00:20:30,299 do you plan to pursue a career in 547 00:20:30,519 --> 00:20:32,059 quantum science and technology, 548 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,519 or have you have you put your interest 549 00:20:34,519 --> 00:20:35,500 on the back burner? 550 00:20:36,599 --> 00:20:39,159 I would say yes. I, like so I'm 551 00:20:39,159 --> 00:20:40,220 currently studying mathematics, 552 00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:42,045 but 553 00:20:42,525 --> 00:20:43,965 it was one of my intentions to actually 554 00:20:43,965 --> 00:20:44,465 do, 555 00:20:45,164 --> 00:20:47,244 like, the quantum modules within my second and 556 00:20:47,244 --> 00:20:48,924 third year. So I'm now coming towards the 557 00:20:48,924 --> 00:20:50,125 end of my first year. And, 558 00:20:52,125 --> 00:20:53,805 yes, I thought, and I thought it's one 559 00:20:53,805 --> 00:20:55,404 thing because I do remember speaking to lots 560 00:20:55,404 --> 00:20:57,579 of tutors about, like, as, I guess, Bob 561 00:20:57,579 --> 00:20:59,419 said, like, there's lots of a mat, maths 562 00:20:59,419 --> 00:21:01,759 towards it. And I thought perhaps by doing 563 00:21:01,980 --> 00:21:03,740 just maths, then I would be able to 564 00:21:03,740 --> 00:21:05,359 understand those, like, 565 00:21:06,140 --> 00:21:07,819 I'd be able to read more literature and 566 00:21:07,819 --> 00:21:09,039 perhaps have better understanding. 567 00:21:11,454 --> 00:21:12,654 And so, yes, I mean, 568 00:21:13,375 --> 00:21:15,454 I would say I haven't done much more 569 00:21:15,454 --> 00:21:17,234 in terms of the extracurricular side. 570 00:21:19,694 --> 00:21:21,794 But I think just also seeing the possibilities 571 00:21:22,095 --> 00:21:22,920 throughout the course, 572 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:25,500 like, just creating algorithms 573 00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:27,799 seemed fascinating to me. 574 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:29,960 I remember I think they did mention one 575 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,500 about solving prime numbers 576 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:32,539 or, like, 577 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:34,220 factors 578 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:35,500 like prime factorization 579 00:21:35,799 --> 00:21:36,299 using, 580 00:21:36,944 --> 00:21:39,284 like, quantum algorithms, I thought was really cool. 581 00:21:39,505 --> 00:21:42,144 I see. And you as a you you're 582 00:21:42,144 --> 00:21:44,404 doing maths at university, but 583 00:21:44,704 --> 00:21:46,884 it I mean, for maybe for the benefit 584 00:21:46,944 --> 00:21:49,265 of of of high school high schoolers who 585 00:21:49,265 --> 00:21:51,444 are listening and thinking, should I do physics? 586 00:21:51,779 --> 00:21:53,000 Should I do maths? 587 00:21:53,940 --> 00:21:56,119 Do you have the opportunity to do 588 00:21:56,660 --> 00:21:57,160 physics 589 00:21:57,539 --> 00:21:59,720 as a mathematician? You know, for example, 590 00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:00,600 doing, 591 00:22:01,779 --> 00:22:04,039 mechanics and and quantum physics. 592 00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:08,335 If you wish, can you can you study 593 00:22:08,335 --> 00:22:10,194 those things in your course? 594 00:22:11,535 --> 00:22:13,555 I suppose yeah. So currently, 595 00:22:14,734 --> 00:22:16,335 I just wanted to just show some mathematics 596 00:22:16,335 --> 00:22:18,494 I can. I think in the first term 597 00:22:18,734 --> 00:22:19,769 in the first year, 598 00:22:20,330 --> 00:22:21,529 a lot of the content is kind of 599 00:22:21,529 --> 00:22:23,289 pre cited. You get at least at Durham, 600 00:22:23,289 --> 00:22:24,509 we have one optional module. 601 00:22:25,289 --> 00:22:27,210 But then I don't think that goes towards 602 00:22:27,210 --> 00:22:29,369 quantum. It's only as within your second year 603 00:22:29,369 --> 00:22:31,470 where you could start to specialize more towards, 604 00:22:32,890 --> 00:22:34,565 perhaps, like, quantum modules, 605 00:22:34,865 --> 00:22:36,804 mechanical modules, statistics probability. 606 00:22:37,345 --> 00:22:39,825 So I suppose definitely later on. Although, I 607 00:22:39,825 --> 00:22:41,664 do guess there's also the option of natural 608 00:22:41,664 --> 00:22:42,865 sciences in which, 609 00:22:43,585 --> 00:22:45,359 we can choose a combination of 610 00:22:45,679 --> 00:22:47,359 subjects. I like to do maths and physics 611 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:48,980 as as an option. 612 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:50,660 I see. 613 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,000 And and what about the future? Do do 614 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,799 do you see a a career in quantum 615 00:22:56,799 --> 00:22:57,859 science and technology 616 00:22:58,734 --> 00:23:00,034 in in your future, 617 00:23:00,494 --> 00:23:02,815 you know, after you've done after you've finished 618 00:23:02,815 --> 00:23:03,554 with university? 619 00:23:04,815 --> 00:23:05,714 I would say 620 00:23:06,095 --> 00:23:07,075 probably, definitely, 621 00:23:07,375 --> 00:23:07,875 yes. 622 00:23:08,494 --> 00:23:09,474 Because I think 623 00:23:10,174 --> 00:23:12,254 the quantum space seems to, like, encapsulate all 624 00:23:12,254 --> 00:23:13,740 of my favorite subjects. Because for instance, for 625 00:23:13,740 --> 00:23:15,900 a levels, I did math both math, physics, 626 00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:17,920 computer science. I guess quantum computing 627 00:23:18,539 --> 00:23:20,079 is, in a way, all of those. 628 00:23:21,180 --> 00:23:21,680 So 629 00:23:22,059 --> 00:23:22,640 I think 630 00:23:23,099 --> 00:23:23,920 also perhaps 631 00:23:24,299 --> 00:23:26,595 because it's so new, I think it's something 632 00:23:26,595 --> 00:23:28,295 that would always keep me interested. 633 00:23:28,674 --> 00:23:29,795 So I think something I would always be 634 00:23:29,795 --> 00:23:31,015 enjoyed and pretend doing 635 00:23:31,554 --> 00:23:32,054 regardless. 636 00:23:33,554 --> 00:23:35,795 I see. Good good stuff. And, 637 00:23:36,275 --> 00:23:38,755 I mean, obviously, the the summer course has 638 00:23:38,755 --> 00:23:39,255 been, 639 00:23:40,589 --> 00:23:43,869 well, Arjun has you've really enjoyed it, and 640 00:23:43,869 --> 00:23:46,509 it's encouraged you to to look at quantum 641 00:23:46,509 --> 00:23:47,490 science and technology 642 00:23:48,190 --> 00:23:50,349 as a career. But but, Alex, I understand 643 00:23:50,349 --> 00:23:52,750 that it's it's not just Arjun who's who 644 00:23:52,750 --> 00:23:53,809 did very well. 645 00:23:55,845 --> 00:23:58,325 You you you had, you had the students 646 00:23:58,325 --> 00:24:00,424 sit a university level exam 647 00:24:00,884 --> 00:24:02,884 on quantum physics at the end of the 648 00:24:02,884 --> 00:24:03,605 course, and, 649 00:24:04,164 --> 00:24:06,404 I think you were extremely pleased with the 650 00:24:06,404 --> 00:24:08,184 outcome. What what happened, Alex? 651 00:24:08,710 --> 00:24:10,470 Yeah. That's right. So so at the end, 652 00:24:10,470 --> 00:24:12,890 we gave them an exam which had all, 653 00:24:13,509 --> 00:24:14,009 previous, 654 00:24:15,110 --> 00:24:17,269 exam questions that that Bob or I have 655 00:24:17,269 --> 00:24:20,230 given on an exam to master students in 656 00:24:20,230 --> 00:24:22,304 in past years. So we just sort of 657 00:24:22,304 --> 00:24:23,204 put that together, 658 00:24:23,585 --> 00:24:25,845 adapted a little bit to match the terminology 659 00:24:25,904 --> 00:24:27,684 of the course, and just gave that exam, 660 00:24:28,384 --> 00:24:29,605 really having no idea, 661 00:24:30,144 --> 00:24:32,144 what we're what we're gonna get back from 662 00:24:32,144 --> 00:24:32,644 this. 663 00:24:33,505 --> 00:24:34,005 And 664 00:24:34,309 --> 00:24:35,750 we're pleased to see that most of the 665 00:24:35,750 --> 00:24:37,210 students passed and, 666 00:24:38,470 --> 00:24:40,329 something like forty percent, 667 00:24:40,869 --> 00:24:44,089 or, yeah, around around that actually got distinctions 668 00:24:44,150 --> 00:24:46,250 or or first class marks and things. 669 00:24:47,429 --> 00:24:49,369 So so, yeah, that was really great. 670 00:24:50,265 --> 00:24:51,884 And one of the things I noticed 671 00:24:52,265 --> 00:24:54,664 kind of qualitatively when marking the exam is 672 00:24:54,664 --> 00:24:56,205 that some of the students understood 673 00:24:57,065 --> 00:24:58,445 certain concepts and 674 00:24:58,825 --> 00:24:59,884 possibly even 675 00:25:00,184 --> 00:25:02,125 even in a better way than I see, 676 00:25:02,505 --> 00:25:03,805 with the graduate students. 677 00:25:05,250 --> 00:25:07,490 So so really an example of that is 678 00:25:07,490 --> 00:25:09,269 this idea of nondeterminism, 679 00:25:10,610 --> 00:25:12,610 in quantum theory. So for instance, I do 680 00:25:12,610 --> 00:25:15,110 a I do a quantum measurement. It collapses 681 00:25:15,250 --> 00:25:16,850 my state, and I I don't get to 682 00:25:16,850 --> 00:25:17,350 control 683 00:25:17,984 --> 00:25:20,464 what state it collapses to. Right? So the 684 00:25:20,464 --> 00:25:22,704 quantum theory has this idea of this kind 685 00:25:22,704 --> 00:25:23,525 of irreducible 686 00:25:24,305 --> 00:25:24,805 nondeterminism, 687 00:25:26,305 --> 00:25:27,605 and quantum computing 688 00:25:27,984 --> 00:25:30,224 really uses this in in the way that 689 00:25:30,224 --> 00:25:31,825 it designs some things. Right? I do a 690 00:25:31,825 --> 00:25:33,919 measurement. This has some sort of action, 691 00:25:34,539 --> 00:25:36,059 and I have to account for that in 692 00:25:36,059 --> 00:25:37,039 a certain way. 693 00:25:37,899 --> 00:25:39,419 And I saw in the way that that 694 00:25:39,419 --> 00:25:41,500 many of the students answered these questions that 695 00:25:41,500 --> 00:25:43,419 they that I think they understood that in 696 00:25:43,419 --> 00:25:44,240 a way that 697 00:25:44,619 --> 00:25:47,099 that was sort of more fundamental, I would 698 00:25:47,099 --> 00:25:48,399 say, than than 699 00:25:48,715 --> 00:25:51,295 than than some university level students. 700 00:25:51,835 --> 00:25:54,154 That that could be that they they aren't 701 00:25:54,154 --> 00:25:56,654 as accustomed to a more traditional or 702 00:25:56,955 --> 00:25:57,455 classical 703 00:25:57,835 --> 00:26:00,154 way of thinking already that a computer scientist 704 00:26:00,154 --> 00:26:02,494 or physicist would get in in in university. 705 00:26:04,279 --> 00:26:06,519 And, Arjun, did you enjoy doing the exam? 706 00:26:06,519 --> 00:26:08,619 I mean, maybe enjoy is the wrong word. 707 00:26:08,679 --> 00:26:09,000 But, 708 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,359 did did you, did did you find it 709 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:13,799 was it a nice way to end the 710 00:26:13,799 --> 00:26:14,299 course? 711 00:26:15,079 --> 00:26:17,525 I think so. I mean, I'm very reluctant 712 00:26:17,525 --> 00:26:19,125 to say I enjoyed an exam, but, 713 00:26:20,244 --> 00:26:21,704 it was definitely nice to have, 714 00:26:22,005 --> 00:26:23,765 I guess, more like, because I think one 715 00:26:23,765 --> 00:26:25,365 of the things is, actually doing lots of 716 00:26:25,365 --> 00:26:27,044 questions were really interesting because it was a 717 00:26:27,044 --> 00:26:28,884 way to practice and actually apply what we 718 00:26:28,884 --> 00:26:29,544 had learned. 719 00:26:30,019 --> 00:26:30,519 And, 720 00:26:30,819 --> 00:26:31,880 I guess the exam 721 00:26:32,579 --> 00:26:34,519 was definitely a nice way of doing it. 722 00:26:35,940 --> 00:26:37,799 And, gosh, I'm trying to remember exactly. 723 00:26:38,259 --> 00:26:39,720 It's been a while. But 724 00:26:40,980 --> 00:26:41,720 I think, 725 00:26:42,734 --> 00:26:43,795 I I mean, I remember 726 00:26:44,255 --> 00:26:45,954 slightly struggling with it initially, 727 00:26:46,414 --> 00:26:47,535 because it was once again, it was one 728 00:26:47,535 --> 00:26:49,954 of those things which is uncertainty. Like, how 729 00:26:50,255 --> 00:26:52,255 how right is my answer? How correct is 730 00:26:52,255 --> 00:26:53,134 it? But, 731 00:26:53,615 --> 00:26:54,515 no. It was definitely, 732 00:26:55,214 --> 00:26:56,160 interesting and 733 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:57,460 enjoyable. 734 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:00,099 Oh, that's great. 735 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:01,140 And, 736 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:03,059 and, Bob, 737 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:04,820 final question, 738 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:05,940 for you. 739 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,559 Do you think that a version of the 740 00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:11,140 summer course could be integrated into 741 00:27:11,575 --> 00:27:13,674 a high school physics curriculum. 742 00:27:14,215 --> 00:27:16,535 And may maybe that's something that that you 743 00:27:16,535 --> 00:27:18,634 and Alex and your colleagues are working 744 00:27:18,934 --> 00:27:21,255 towards now. Is is that something that we 745 00:27:21,255 --> 00:27:21,994 could see? 746 00:27:22,934 --> 00:27:24,634 It is already happening, actually. 747 00:27:25,140 --> 00:27:25,619 Like, 748 00:27:26,099 --> 00:27:26,599 Greece 749 00:27:26,900 --> 00:27:29,720 was the first country to basically start using, 750 00:27:30,740 --> 00:27:32,599 this this language methodology 751 00:27:32,980 --> 00:27:34,119 at high school level. 752 00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:36,500 So that there is a translation out now, 753 00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:38,759 which was really pushed by by the the 754 00:27:39,964 --> 00:27:40,704 the mathematics 755 00:27:41,005 --> 00:27:42,065 sort of teaching 756 00:27:42,525 --> 00:27:43,984 council in Greece. 757 00:27:44,285 --> 00:27:46,125 So, I mean I mean, it's probably not 758 00:27:46,125 --> 00:27:48,144 an accident that it's Greek because 759 00:27:48,605 --> 00:27:50,384 as I was hinting at earlier, 760 00:27:51,404 --> 00:27:53,805 this language is not something you contrast with 761 00:27:53,805 --> 00:27:57,069 classical physics. I think this language basically goes 762 00:27:57,069 --> 00:28:00,669 back to before 2,400 763 00:28:00,669 --> 00:28:02,529 of western scientific tradition 764 00:28:02,990 --> 00:28:05,009 to the pre Socratics in Greece. 765 00:28:06,029 --> 00:28:09,329 Because that's the moment when western science decided 766 00:28:09,390 --> 00:28:10,450 to become mainly 767 00:28:10,974 --> 00:28:11,954 it, reductionist 768 00:28:12,255 --> 00:28:13,234 following Democritus 769 00:28:13,855 --> 00:28:16,835 and having quite a static kinematic based view 770 00:28:16,894 --> 00:28:18,434 following a guy called Parmenides. 771 00:28:18,894 --> 00:28:20,494 On the other hand, you've got people like 772 00:28:20,494 --> 00:28:22,654 Heraclitus who had, like, a process based view 773 00:28:22,654 --> 00:28:23,315 on reality, 774 00:28:23,789 --> 00:28:26,190 Leibniz who has, like, an interactive relational view 775 00:28:26,190 --> 00:28:28,289 on reality. And these pictures, without 776 00:28:28,590 --> 00:28:30,990 people probably realizing it, they are much an 777 00:28:30,990 --> 00:28:33,630 embracement of a post process based view and 778 00:28:33,630 --> 00:28:37,484 an interactive view. And, so so so something 779 00:28:37,484 --> 00:28:40,284 Alex was hinting out, about, like, they didn't 780 00:28:40,365 --> 00:28:42,684 the people maybe not have been much as 781 00:28:42,684 --> 00:28:43,585 much as subjected 782 00:28:44,125 --> 00:28:46,365 to, like, western thinking may actually be an 783 00:28:46,365 --> 00:28:48,204 advantage. We kind of saw that the 15 784 00:28:48,204 --> 00:28:49,884 year olds were doing better than the 17 785 00:28:49,884 --> 00:28:52,099 year olds, which kind of proved that point 786 00:28:52,099 --> 00:28:53,720 that the less you've learned, 787 00:28:54,419 --> 00:28:55,799 the less you have to unlearn. 788 00:28:56,500 --> 00:28:58,419 And that's in particular why I think it's 789 00:28:58,419 --> 00:29:00,839 really important to start this stuff very early. 790 00:29:01,059 --> 00:29:01,559 And, 791 00:29:02,259 --> 00:29:04,099 I got a few people now working on 792 00:29:04,099 --> 00:29:06,015 this. Like, we're we're we're talking to many, 793 00:29:06,015 --> 00:29:08,575 many places in the world, like, where they 794 00:29:08,575 --> 00:29:09,555 want to start 795 00:29:10,255 --> 00:29:11,934 this in a pro so one country is, 796 00:29:11,934 --> 00:29:14,755 like, wanting to do high school, teaching 797 00:29:15,615 --> 00:29:16,994 using this is Ghana, 798 00:29:17,970 --> 00:29:20,470 for example. So and, we we also have 799 00:29:20,609 --> 00:29:23,109 a collaboration which is now now funded with 800 00:29:23,329 --> 00:29:23,829 Colorado 801 00:29:24,130 --> 00:29:25,589 Colorado state schools. 802 00:29:25,970 --> 00:29:28,869 So several places in the world are starting 803 00:29:28,929 --> 00:29:29,429 to, 804 00:29:30,704 --> 00:29:32,565 have we we we are doing an Ukrainian 805 00:29:32,625 --> 00:29:35,125 translation, by the way, too, on the initiative 806 00:29:35,744 --> 00:29:36,484 from Ukraine 807 00:29:37,424 --> 00:29:39,265 of of the book. So lots of places 808 00:29:39,265 --> 00:29:42,005 are now starting to want to integrate this, 809 00:29:42,340 --> 00:29:44,340 But it it's all quite recent. You know? 810 00:29:44,340 --> 00:29:46,660 So it's a very ongoing process, and I 811 00:29:46,660 --> 00:29:49,059 expect if we speak in a year about 812 00:29:49,059 --> 00:29:52,200 this, their story will be much more advanced 813 00:29:52,420 --> 00:29:55,434 and much more, yeah, broader in where and 814 00:29:55,434 --> 00:29:57,914 when this stuff is being, integrated in high 815 00:29:57,914 --> 00:29:59,994 school curriculum. But it should be. It should 816 00:29:59,994 --> 00:30:02,154 happen. It's not just about quantum. It's about 817 00:30:02,154 --> 00:30:04,174 a changing world view to a more relational 818 00:30:04,715 --> 00:30:06,015 and process kind of 819 00:30:06,475 --> 00:30:09,250 way of thinking, which which also makes the 820 00:30:09,250 --> 00:30:11,349 the sciences and humanities a little bit closer. 821 00:30:11,809 --> 00:30:13,890 I see. And and what about you, Arjun? 822 00:30:13,890 --> 00:30:15,890 I mean, you're out of all of us, 823 00:30:15,890 --> 00:30:18,529 you're the closest to to having been in 824 00:30:18,529 --> 00:30:19,269 high school. 825 00:30:20,529 --> 00:30:22,210 Do I mean, do you would you have 826 00:30:22,210 --> 00:30:22,710 enjoyed, 827 00:30:24,095 --> 00:30:25,154 seeing this material, 828 00:30:25,855 --> 00:30:27,394 you know, when you're doing your 829 00:30:28,255 --> 00:30:29,955 physics a level or 830 00:30:30,494 --> 00:30:32,434 a mathematics a level or even, 831 00:30:33,215 --> 00:30:34,355 at a lower level, 832 00:30:35,055 --> 00:30:36,654 at a younger age in high school? Do 833 00:30:36,654 --> 00:30:38,335 you think it would be it would be 834 00:30:38,335 --> 00:30:39,154 very useful? 835 00:30:40,710 --> 00:30:42,470 I'd yeah. I definitely think so, 836 00:30:42,950 --> 00:30:43,450 because 837 00:30:44,789 --> 00:30:46,329 I think it's something that could, 838 00:30:47,430 --> 00:30:49,269 it could be like a nice way to 839 00:30:49,269 --> 00:30:50,950 kind of unite, I guess, physics and computer 840 00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:52,970 science. So for physicists and computer science students, 841 00:30:53,509 --> 00:30:55,934 it, I mean, perhaps creating some algorithms where 842 00:30:55,934 --> 00:30:57,234 they're, like, perhaps more 843 00:30:58,734 --> 00:31:01,134 simplistic, could be nice. And then also, I 844 00:31:01,134 --> 00:31:01,775 suppose that, 845 00:31:02,734 --> 00:31:04,674 it would probably make people more aware, 846 00:31:05,775 --> 00:31:07,455 of just, like, a small if I call 847 00:31:07,455 --> 00:31:08,670 it physics, I guess, by 848 00:31:09,710 --> 00:31:10,109 just, 849 00:31:10,590 --> 00:31:11,650 giving more exposure. 850 00:31:14,269 --> 00:31:16,509 And so, yeah, I think it definitely would 851 00:31:16,509 --> 00:31:17,330 have been nice. 852 00:31:17,789 --> 00:31:18,690 And I think also, 853 00:31:19,150 --> 00:31:21,765 as both Alex and Bob Sway were saying, 854 00:31:23,304 --> 00:31:25,825 by at that point, we've learned less classical 855 00:31:25,825 --> 00:31:26,644 way of thinking, 856 00:31:27,424 --> 00:31:29,525 for math and physics. So it would be 857 00:31:29,904 --> 00:31:31,444 it would make that easier more intuitive. 858 00:31:32,224 --> 00:31:34,460 I see. And and maybe I'll I'll throw 859 00:31:34,460 --> 00:31:35,759 this out to to Alex, 860 00:31:36,139 --> 00:31:36,639 first. 861 00:31:37,579 --> 00:31:39,679 What about even younger children 862 00:31:40,859 --> 00:31:41,359 and, 863 00:31:41,740 --> 00:31:44,220 you know, people who have done finished their 864 00:31:44,220 --> 00:31:44,720 schooling? 865 00:31:45,115 --> 00:31:47,755 You know, I'm thinking of primary aid primary 866 00:31:47,755 --> 00:31:48,894 school age children 867 00:31:49,674 --> 00:31:50,174 and, 868 00:31:50,954 --> 00:31:53,914 just just the interested public. I mean, is 869 00:31:53,914 --> 00:31:56,494 there a is there an argument for introducing 870 00:31:56,714 --> 00:31:58,654 or coming up with ways of introducing 871 00:31:59,019 --> 00:31:59,839 quantum physics, 872 00:32:00,779 --> 00:32:02,319 to to those groups of people. 873 00:32:03,420 --> 00:32:05,119 Yeah. I think I think so. 874 00:32:05,420 --> 00:32:06,059 I mean, the, 875 00:32:07,579 --> 00:32:10,140 the original paper of Bob's that kind of 876 00:32:10,140 --> 00:32:13,200 kicked off this education idea was titled kindergarten 877 00:32:13,339 --> 00:32:14,240 quantum mechanics, 878 00:32:14,994 --> 00:32:16,595 which I think was a bit of a 879 00:32:16,595 --> 00:32:18,355 tongue in cheek title that, you know, we 880 00:32:18,355 --> 00:32:21,234 could teach quantum mechanics to kindergartners. But, I 881 00:32:21,234 --> 00:32:22,835 mean, I think it it'd be interesting to 882 00:32:22,835 --> 00:32:24,674 see just how far we can we can 883 00:32:24,674 --> 00:32:26,934 push this. And I I think for instance, 884 00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:30,139 you know, I know anecdotally cases of 12, 885 00:32:30,139 --> 00:32:32,960 13 year olds reading reading Bob and Stefano's 886 00:32:33,019 --> 00:32:34,799 book and getting a lot out of it. 887 00:32:35,500 --> 00:32:37,980 So thinking about different different levels to pitch 888 00:32:37,980 --> 00:32:40,934 that at and also also having more materials 889 00:32:40,934 --> 00:32:42,615 that, you know, you can just share with 890 00:32:42,615 --> 00:32:44,375 your friends. Like, so for instance, if people 891 00:32:44,375 --> 00:32:46,855 are interested in pop science, but they don't 892 00:32:46,855 --> 00:32:49,654 have a mathematical background, they can sort of 893 00:32:49,815 --> 00:32:51,174 this kind of stuff, you can get your 894 00:32:51,174 --> 00:32:52,694 teeth into in a way that you can't, 895 00:32:53,429 --> 00:32:55,429 with a pop science book because here, you 896 00:32:55,429 --> 00:32:56,710 know, we give you something, and you can 897 00:32:56,710 --> 00:32:58,629 really do some calculations. You can see what 898 00:32:58,629 --> 00:33:00,730 quantum theory is gonna tell you will happen. 899 00:33:01,589 --> 00:33:03,269 And I think that could be really appealing 900 00:33:03,269 --> 00:33:04,250 to a lot of people. 901 00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:05,450 Okay. 902 00:33:05,804 --> 00:33:08,924 Well, that's great, guys. Bob, Alex, and Arjun, 903 00:33:08,924 --> 00:33:10,304 thanks so much for, 904 00:33:10,605 --> 00:33:11,904 speaking to me. Arjun, 905 00:33:12,924 --> 00:33:14,944 best of luck with your career 906 00:33:15,565 --> 00:33:17,345 in mathematics and hopefully, 907 00:33:17,724 --> 00:33:19,264 quantum science and technology. 908 00:33:20,009 --> 00:33:20,410 And, 909 00:33:20,809 --> 00:33:21,309 Bob, 910 00:33:21,690 --> 00:33:24,910 hope everything's going well at Quantinium. And, Alex, 911 00:33:25,769 --> 00:33:28,009 best wishes at Oxford. And thanks so much 912 00:33:28,009 --> 00:33:29,450 to all of you for coming on the 913 00:33:29,450 --> 00:33:29,950 podcast. 914 00:33:30,330 --> 00:33:32,170 Alright. Thanks, Hamish. Thank you. Thank you. It 915 00:33:32,170 --> 00:33:33,464 was a pleasure to speak to you. 916 00:33:40,744 --> 00:33:42,505 I'm afraid that's all the time we have 917 00:33:42,505 --> 00:33:43,724 for this week's podcast. 918 00:33:44,105 --> 00:33:47,704 Thanks to Bob, Arjun, and Alex for joining 919 00:33:47,704 --> 00:33:50,160 me today, and a special thanks to our 920 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:51,539 producer Fred Isles. 921 00:33:52,319 --> 00:33:55,220 I'll put links to Bob and Alex's books 922 00:33:55,359 --> 00:33:57,059 in the notes for this episode. 923 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,400 We'll be back again next week, but in 924 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,059 the meantime, do check out the latest episode 925 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,755 of the Physics World Stories podcast, 926 00:34:06,294 --> 00:34:09,434 which features an interview with Linda Williams, 927 00:34:10,054 --> 00:34:10,554 physicist, 928 00:34:10,934 --> 00:34:11,434 performer, 929 00:34:11,815 --> 00:34:12,954 and self styled 930 00:34:13,494 --> 00:34:14,554 physics Chantouse. 931 00:34:15,494 --> 00:34:18,534 She tells host Andrew Glester about her latest 932 00:34:18,534 --> 00:34:20,210 show called Atomic 933 00:34:20,829 --> 00:34:21,329 Cabaret, 934 00:34:21,789 --> 00:34:24,609 and they chat about how she combines science 935 00:34:24,829 --> 00:34:25,650 with music, 936 00:34:26,030 --> 00:34:28,130 satire, and performance art. 937 00:34:28,590 --> 00:34:31,809 That episode is called the Physics Chantouse, 938 00:34:32,349 --> 00:34:35,304 when science hits a high note, and you 939 00:34:35,304 --> 00:34:37,644 can find it on the Physics World website 940 00:34:37,945 --> 00:34:41,005 or at your favorite podcast provider.