1 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,119 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly 2 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:11,619 podcast. 3 00:00:12,755 --> 00:00:14,615 Home to nearly 10,000,000 4 00:00:14,675 --> 00:00:16,214 people, the Chicago 5 00:00:16,595 --> 00:00:17,095 Metropolitan 6 00:00:17,554 --> 00:00:19,255 Area or Chicagoland 7 00:00:20,274 --> 00:00:23,154 is one of the largest urban areas in 8 00:00:23,154 --> 00:00:23,894 The US. 9 00:00:24,675 --> 00:00:25,494 A scientific 10 00:00:25,875 --> 00:00:26,375 powerhouse, 11 00:00:27,070 --> 00:00:29,010 the region is home to two 12 00:00:29,390 --> 00:00:30,929 US national labs, 13 00:00:31,390 --> 00:00:32,770 Argonne and Fermilab, 14 00:00:33,469 --> 00:00:36,530 as well as top notch academic institutions, 15 00:00:37,309 --> 00:00:39,409 including the University of Chicago 16 00:00:39,789 --> 00:00:40,609 and Northwestern 17 00:00:40,989 --> 00:00:41,489 University. 18 00:00:43,015 --> 00:00:46,875 Physics World's Margaret Harris was in Chicagoland recently 19 00:00:47,175 --> 00:00:48,795 and met two scientists. 20 00:00:49,495 --> 00:00:51,115 One who leads a national 21 00:00:51,655 --> 00:00:55,355 collaborative center focused on the future of battery 22 00:00:55,495 --> 00:00:55,995 recycling, 23 00:00:56,850 --> 00:00:59,350 And the other who leads an institution 24 00:01:00,130 --> 00:01:01,750 dedicated to molecular 25 00:01:02,130 --> 00:01:02,630 engineering. 26 00:01:03,729 --> 00:01:04,629 Those conversations 27 00:01:04,930 --> 00:01:07,730 are coming up after this message about an 28 00:01:07,730 --> 00:01:11,189 event that's sponsored by the Institute of Physics, 29 00:01:11,674 --> 00:01:14,415 which also brings you Physics World. 30 00:01:14,954 --> 00:01:17,534 On the May, 31 00:01:17,594 --> 00:01:18,335 The Economist 32 00:01:18,715 --> 00:01:19,454 is hosting 33 00:01:19,755 --> 00:01:20,255 commercializing 34 00:01:21,034 --> 00:01:24,655 Quantum Global twenty twenty five in London. 35 00:01:25,530 --> 00:01:28,909 Participants will join global leaders from business, 36 00:01:29,370 --> 00:01:30,829 science, and policy 37 00:01:31,370 --> 00:01:34,890 for two days of real world insights into 38 00:01:34,890 --> 00:01:35,950 quantum's future. 39 00:01:36,730 --> 00:01:40,884 In London, you'll explore breakthroughs in quantum computing, 40 00:01:41,344 --> 00:01:41,844 communications, 41 00:01:42,304 --> 00:01:43,125 and sensing, 42 00:01:43,504 --> 00:01:46,884 and discover how these technologies are shaping industries, 43 00:01:47,424 --> 00:01:47,924 economies, 44 00:01:48,384 --> 00:01:49,765 and global regulation. 45 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:56,020 You can register for the event at events.economist.com. 46 00:01:56,719 --> 00:01:59,380 First up, Margaret speaks with the physicist 47 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:00,820 Nadia Mason. 48 00:02:01,359 --> 00:02:04,755 She's dean of the Pritzker School of Molecular 49 00:02:05,055 --> 00:02:05,555 Engineering 50 00:02:05,855 --> 00:02:07,635 at the University of Chicago, 51 00:02:08,094 --> 00:02:10,514 which focuses on quantum engineering, 52 00:02:11,215 --> 00:02:12,675 materials for sustainability, 53 00:02:13,455 --> 00:02:14,355 and immuno 54 00:02:14,735 --> 00:02:15,235 engineering. 55 00:02:15,775 --> 00:02:17,155 Here's that conversation. 56 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,419 So first question is, you know, molecular engineering 57 00:02:28,479 --> 00:02:30,659 is kind of a a new concept. 58 00:02:31,295 --> 00:02:33,135 How would you define this term, and how 59 00:02:33,135 --> 00:02:34,675 does that sort of explain 60 00:02:34,974 --> 00:02:36,675 all the things that we're going on here? 61 00:02:37,055 --> 00:02:39,694 So molecular engineering is, it's new. It's it's 62 00:02:39,694 --> 00:02:42,115 an exciting way, I think, of putting together 63 00:02:43,135 --> 00:02:45,635 different fields that have the same goals. 64 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:46,580 So 65 00:02:47,039 --> 00:02:48,719 the idea is that you're you're building things 66 00:02:48,719 --> 00:02:50,959 from the from the molecular level up. And 67 00:02:50,959 --> 00:02:53,199 it's something that you couldn't do years ago 68 00:02:53,199 --> 00:02:55,300 because you didn't have the ability to manipulate 69 00:02:55,519 --> 00:02:57,439 individual molecules in the same way or even 70 00:02:57,439 --> 00:02:59,955 image individual molecules. You know, the revolution in 71 00:03:00,194 --> 00:03:02,915 nanotechnology in the seventies and eighties and nineties 72 00:03:02,915 --> 00:03:04,915 is really what led today to our ability 73 00:03:04,915 --> 00:03:06,935 to even think about how do we 74 00:03:07,634 --> 00:03:08,694 engineer and manipulate, 75 00:03:09,395 --> 00:03:09,895 combine 76 00:03:10,594 --> 00:03:13,669 things at this really basic molecular level 77 00:03:14,050 --> 00:03:16,530 to to move toward applications that that utilize 78 00:03:16,530 --> 00:03:18,530 them. You know, I'm I come from physics, 79 00:03:18,530 --> 00:03:19,909 so I think about atoms. 80 00:03:20,689 --> 00:03:21,669 You know? And 81 00:03:22,050 --> 00:03:24,235 we still don't have the ability, really, I 82 00:03:24,235 --> 00:03:26,074 mean, to to put together atoms in a 83 00:03:26,074 --> 00:03:27,995 way that leads to functional devices. We can 84 00:03:27,995 --> 00:03:29,914 do it with scanning tunneling microscopy, but we 85 00:03:29,914 --> 00:03:32,155 really can't do it at the single atomic 86 00:03:32,155 --> 00:03:34,394 level. Right? And before, we couldn't even do 87 00:03:34,394 --> 00:03:35,914 that at the molecular level, but now we 88 00:03:35,914 --> 00:03:38,519 can with different capabilities in in in chemical 89 00:03:38,519 --> 00:03:41,979 engineering, in materials engineering, in physics. By combining 90 00:03:42,039 --> 00:03:43,879 all of those things, we can now think 91 00:03:43,879 --> 00:03:46,219 about, okay, how do we take a molecule 92 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,699 and functionalize it in just the right way 93 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:50,205 to lead to the next, 94 00:03:50,844 --> 00:03:53,564 you know, therapeutic that helps cure cancer? How 95 00:03:53,564 --> 00:03:54,944 do we take a 96 00:03:55,485 --> 00:03:57,965 nano sized bit of of material, which you 97 00:03:57,965 --> 00:04:00,365 can think of on the molecular scale, and 98 00:04:00,365 --> 00:04:02,844 engineer defects to make the next generation of 99 00:04:02,844 --> 00:04:03,780 quantum sensor? 100 00:04:04,259 --> 00:04:05,240 How do we take 101 00:04:05,620 --> 00:04:07,620 materials that form the backbone of our most 102 00:04:07,620 --> 00:04:09,000 common plastics and 103 00:04:09,300 --> 00:04:11,860 modify them on really the atom by atom 104 00:04:11,860 --> 00:04:13,560 level to make them more recyclable? 105 00:04:14,340 --> 00:04:15,539 These are things I I think we just 106 00:04:15,539 --> 00:04:16,819 couldn't do, but now we know how. So 107 00:04:16,819 --> 00:04:18,875 that those those form the basis of molecular 108 00:04:19,014 --> 00:04:21,175 engineering. It's it's it's a way of of 109 00:04:21,175 --> 00:04:22,074 thinking about 110 00:04:22,454 --> 00:04:23,675 engineering the future 111 00:04:24,615 --> 00:04:25,834 from a small scale 112 00:04:26,214 --> 00:04:27,115 to the largest. 113 00:04:27,735 --> 00:04:29,670 And so I think you you've got, I 114 00:04:29,670 --> 00:04:31,750 hear the Pritzker School of Nucklesh Yes. Got 115 00:04:31,750 --> 00:04:34,170 three different sort of fields, I think. So 116 00:04:34,470 --> 00:04:37,189 we're talking mostly about energy and quantum today 117 00:04:37,350 --> 00:04:38,709 Yeah. Yeah. The ones that are closest to 118 00:04:38,709 --> 00:04:40,569 physics. But I guess there's also immunoengineering. 119 00:04:40,949 --> 00:04:41,689 That's right. 120 00:04:42,069 --> 00:04:43,990 What do you see as the connections between 121 00:04:43,990 --> 00:04:46,125 these areas? How does that what's that kind 122 00:04:46,125 --> 00:04:48,524 of cross pollination that you see between them? 123 00:04:48,524 --> 00:04:50,285 Yeah. Great question. Well, I mean, at at 124 00:04:50,285 --> 00:04:52,045 UChicago, we thought we wanted we didn't wanna 125 00:04:52,045 --> 00:04:53,805 create a traditional school of engineering that had 126 00:04:53,805 --> 00:04:56,205 departments that were just defined by whatever terms 127 00:04:56,205 --> 00:04:58,605 were important in the early nineteen hundreds, like, 128 00:04:58,605 --> 00:05:00,545 you know, mechanics. I mean, it's still important, 129 00:05:00,740 --> 00:05:02,740 but it's not that doesn't that doesn't define 130 00:05:02,740 --> 00:05:05,639 a problem. It defines an an area of, 131 00:05:06,259 --> 00:05:08,019 you know, a very broad area of training. 132 00:05:08,019 --> 00:05:09,379 So the idea is today, how do you 133 00:05:09,379 --> 00:05:11,220 think about the problems we wanna solve and 134 00:05:11,220 --> 00:05:12,980 train for those? And so that's how we 135 00:05:12,980 --> 00:05:15,314 chose these three areas. There were things that 136 00:05:15,314 --> 00:05:17,634 were both relevant right now that were that 137 00:05:17,634 --> 00:05:19,895 we could build on existing strengths at Chicago 138 00:05:20,035 --> 00:05:22,355 UChicago and in the community, but also that 139 00:05:22,355 --> 00:05:23,875 we thought were going to be really important 140 00:05:23,875 --> 00:05:26,355 for the future. So quantum engineering is is 141 00:05:26,355 --> 00:05:28,355 now. It's happening. This is something that when 142 00:05:28,355 --> 00:05:29,714 I started in grad school, it was just 143 00:05:29,714 --> 00:05:31,920 quantum mechanics, and now we're we have companies 144 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,180 and we're designing devices. And, you know, engineering, 145 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,480 same thing. This is related to really the 146 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,680 fundamentals of how you manipulate molecules for for 147 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,480 biology and for therapeutics and applications in the 148 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:43,620 biological sphere. 149 00:05:44,235 --> 00:05:46,555 And especially immunology is something that even in 150 00:05:46,555 --> 00:05:48,735 the past ten years, it's become more fear 151 00:05:48,875 --> 00:05:51,675 that the immune system affects almost every disease 152 00:05:51,675 --> 00:05:53,274 that we that we have. I think something 153 00:05:53,274 --> 00:05:55,995 like eighty percent of deaths are actually immune 154 00:05:55,995 --> 00:05:56,895 system disorders 155 00:05:57,229 --> 00:05:59,229 that, you know, that something breaks down and 156 00:05:59,229 --> 00:06:00,669 then then affects the immune system, which is 157 00:06:00,669 --> 00:06:02,269 what causes your organs to fail and you 158 00:06:02,269 --> 00:06:04,189 to die. And then same thing with molecular 159 00:06:04,189 --> 00:06:06,669 engineering, for energy and sustainability. That is, of 160 00:06:06,669 --> 00:06:08,350 course, one of the biggest problems we have 161 00:06:08,350 --> 00:06:09,789 out there. Now the great thing is because 162 00:06:09,789 --> 00:06:12,449 we're thinking all about molecules manipulating, 163 00:06:12,935 --> 00:06:15,415 having things interact across the board, across what 164 00:06:15,415 --> 00:06:16,875 are really disparate fields, 165 00:06:17,175 --> 00:06:18,714 what you'd think are disparate fields, 166 00:06:19,095 --> 00:06:21,675 our faculty and researchers can use similar techniques 167 00:06:22,214 --> 00:06:24,214 to work you know, to inform each other. 168 00:06:24,214 --> 00:06:26,154 They can they can think about applications 169 00:06:26,455 --> 00:06:28,154 that they might not have thought of otherwise. 170 00:06:28,459 --> 00:06:29,580 You know, so one example is I was 171 00:06:29,580 --> 00:06:30,939 just in the lab of one of of 172 00:06:30,939 --> 00:06:32,860 two of our faculty who are in the 173 00:06:32,860 --> 00:06:35,759 quantum group, but also in the immuno group, 174 00:06:36,060 --> 00:06:38,399 because one of them, Peter Maurer, is using 175 00:06:39,100 --> 00:06:40,080 quantum sensors. 176 00:06:40,459 --> 00:06:40,939 So, 177 00:06:41,339 --> 00:06:44,245 vacancy sensors and, you know, vacancies in in 178 00:06:44,245 --> 00:06:47,045 materials, and now even proteins in biological systems 179 00:06:47,045 --> 00:06:51,365 as quantum states to image biological systems. And 180 00:06:51,365 --> 00:06:52,964 so the student who I was talking to 181 00:06:52,964 --> 00:06:54,884 in his lab yesterday is a is a 182 00:06:54,884 --> 00:06:55,384 biophysicist 183 00:06:55,764 --> 00:06:57,305 who is actually, like, making, 184 00:06:58,165 --> 00:07:00,849 you know, fluorophores. And, there is some green 185 00:07:00,849 --> 00:07:02,370 thing that was like an algae somewhere. I 186 00:07:02,370 --> 00:07:03,329 don't know. I don't even know what they 187 00:07:03,329 --> 00:07:04,610 were doing with it, but it was funny 188 00:07:04,610 --> 00:07:06,129 seeing it in a lab that had dilution 189 00:07:06,129 --> 00:07:08,529 refrigerators and lasers and things like that because 190 00:07:08,529 --> 00:07:10,370 they're they're not just, like, trapping and moving 191 00:07:10,370 --> 00:07:13,009 things around. They're actually using proteins as quantum 192 00:07:13,009 --> 00:07:15,095 sensors to, you know, to 193 00:07:15,794 --> 00:07:18,194 image what's happening in individual cells to see 194 00:07:18,194 --> 00:07:19,954 what, you know, ion channels and things are 195 00:07:19,954 --> 00:07:23,175 doing for for that can affect specific biological 196 00:07:23,235 --> 00:07:25,235 functions. And so, you know, another one of 197 00:07:25,235 --> 00:07:28,055 our faculty, Sihang Huang, is looking at 198 00:07:28,399 --> 00:07:31,039 bioadhesives. So he's confining material science and looking 199 00:07:31,039 --> 00:07:32,979 at how to make adhesives, but functionalizing 200 00:07:33,279 --> 00:07:36,099 them to work on organs with immunoreceptors 201 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,019 and things that make them 202 00:07:38,399 --> 00:07:41,199 both compatible, but also can, you know, suppress 203 00:07:41,199 --> 00:07:43,539 very specific reactions when you use these adhesives 204 00:07:43,599 --> 00:07:45,666 in situ in your body. And he's one 205 00:07:45,666 --> 00:07:47,815 of the first people to ever do this. 206 00:07:47,815 --> 00:07:50,501 And, you know, again, they're working he's he 207 00:07:50,501 --> 00:07:52,650 was working directly with other faculty who just 208 00:07:52,650 --> 00:07:55,068 have who know the immunotherapies. And in the 209 00:07:55,068 --> 00:07:57,485 Quantum Lab, they're working directly with, people who 210 00:07:57,485 --> 00:07:59,680 work on therapeutics. So I think there's you 211 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:01,759 know, we always talk about how exciting science 212 00:08:01,759 --> 00:08:03,600 happens at the interface, but here, you know, 213 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,439 we're all in the same building. And I've 214 00:08:05,439 --> 00:08:06,660 personally never seen 215 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:07,699 so many 216 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,504 actual collaborations between people in what seems like 217 00:08:11,504 --> 00:08:14,384 really disparate fields, but are just breaking boundaries 218 00:08:14,384 --> 00:08:16,305 all the way. So super exciting, I think, 219 00:08:16,305 --> 00:08:17,285 for us, but also 220 00:08:17,745 --> 00:08:19,045 for our collective future. 221 00:08:19,745 --> 00:08:21,584 How does your own research fit into that? 222 00:08:21,584 --> 00:08:23,185 You know, you've been talking about other people's 223 00:08:23,185 --> 00:08:25,019 research. Yeah. How do you see your your 224 00:08:25,019 --> 00:08:27,120 own research? Yeah. Tell us about that. Yeah. 225 00:08:27,420 --> 00:08:28,860 So I'm a I'm I'm trained as a 226 00:08:28,860 --> 00:08:29,680 quantum physicist. 227 00:08:30,060 --> 00:08:31,259 All of my all of my degrees are 228 00:08:31,259 --> 00:08:34,139 in physics, and I focus on correlated electronic 229 00:08:34,139 --> 00:08:36,940 systems. So systems where the electrons interact strongly 230 00:08:36,940 --> 00:08:39,360 or nanoscale systems where you get new behaviors 231 00:08:39,419 --> 00:08:41,044 because things are are so 232 00:08:41,424 --> 00:08:43,024 small. I'm really more on the on the 233 00:08:43,024 --> 00:08:45,845 quantum material side, which is looking at 234 00:08:46,144 --> 00:08:46,644 at 235 00:08:47,345 --> 00:08:48,945 how do you you know, what what new 236 00:08:48,945 --> 00:08:51,264 functionalities can you get out of materials when 237 00:08:51,264 --> 00:08:52,625 you think about them in the in the 238 00:08:52,625 --> 00:08:53,764 quantum regime. 239 00:08:54,209 --> 00:08:56,370 These are, you know, this is directly relevant 240 00:08:56,370 --> 00:08:57,970 to a lot of our quantum engineering that's 241 00:08:57,970 --> 00:09:00,129 going on where we're thinking about, you know, 242 00:09:00,129 --> 00:09:01,730 what are what are the next generation of 243 00:09:01,730 --> 00:09:03,490 quantum sensors? What are the what are the 244 00:09:03,490 --> 00:09:05,829 next you know, how do we connect classical 245 00:09:05,889 --> 00:09:06,389 computers 246 00:09:06,725 --> 00:09:08,565 to quantum computers? How do we make quantum 247 00:09:08,565 --> 00:09:09,945 computer computers more 248 00:09:10,404 --> 00:09:12,725 more viable by increasing their coherence on the 249 00:09:12,725 --> 00:09:14,184 long on long time scales? 250 00:09:14,644 --> 00:09:15,845 You know, I think I I do the 251 00:09:16,004 --> 00:09:18,644 my group does the does the legwork to 252 00:09:18,644 --> 00:09:21,570 think of the next generation of of materials 253 00:09:21,570 --> 00:09:24,289 and applications and phenomena that can feed into 254 00:09:24,289 --> 00:09:26,289 all of this sort of quantum engineering. Now 255 00:09:26,289 --> 00:09:28,129 you ask how it bridges. It bridges because 256 00:09:28,129 --> 00:09:30,129 I think of materials as backbone of everything. 257 00:09:30,129 --> 00:09:31,490 Right? If you you if you have if 258 00:09:31,490 --> 00:09:32,549 you have a new material, 259 00:09:32,945 --> 00:09:34,945 then you can find all sorts of uses 260 00:09:34,945 --> 00:09:37,024 and applications for it. So you can think 261 00:09:37,024 --> 00:09:38,784 of these new, we work on graphene, which 262 00:09:38,784 --> 00:09:41,024 is a purely two dimensional material. That's something 263 00:09:41,024 --> 00:09:42,784 that people in quantum care about because it's 264 00:09:42,784 --> 00:09:45,430 an electronic material, but also in, you know, 265 00:09:45,430 --> 00:09:48,230 our immuno engineers are using this as as 266 00:09:48,230 --> 00:09:51,029 scaffolding, as a flexible scaffolding for different types 267 00:09:51,029 --> 00:09:54,410 of of, of functionalized membranes, for example. So, 268 00:09:54,870 --> 00:09:57,029 you know, the material backbone is another thing 269 00:09:57,029 --> 00:09:59,129 that crosses all of all of these things. 270 00:10:00,134 --> 00:10:02,535 And you talk about, you know, some trends 271 00:10:02,535 --> 00:10:04,695 and developments in the field to know. What 272 00:10:04,695 --> 00:10:06,774 is what is coming up that you're most 273 00:10:06,774 --> 00:10:07,675 excited about 274 00:10:08,054 --> 00:10:09,575 five years in the future, three years in 275 00:10:09,575 --> 00:10:10,795 the future? Yeah. 276 00:10:11,654 --> 00:10:13,014 I I touched on this a little already, 277 00:10:13,014 --> 00:10:14,455 but I really think it is the intersection 278 00:10:14,455 --> 00:10:16,399 of these different fields. I think that that 279 00:10:16,399 --> 00:10:18,879 the intersection of biology and quantum is something 280 00:10:18,879 --> 00:10:21,200 that that our our faculty have been exploring 281 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,539 extremely successfully that I think is is viable, 282 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:25,759 that we will have a quantum sensor that 283 00:10:25,759 --> 00:10:27,839 can look inside a cell and will have 284 00:10:27,839 --> 00:10:29,700 direct applications for 285 00:10:30,004 --> 00:10:30,825 for therapeutics, 286 00:10:31,365 --> 00:10:32,884 in a way that we just couldn't see 287 00:10:32,884 --> 00:10:34,245 thing at a in a scale we couldn't 288 00:10:34,245 --> 00:10:35,144 see things before. 289 00:10:35,524 --> 00:10:37,365 I think that's, you know, that's five years 290 00:10:37,365 --> 00:10:38,985 down the line. I think that'll be revolutionary. 291 00:10:39,524 --> 00:10:41,605 As I mentioned, materials people who are also 292 00:10:41,605 --> 00:10:44,004 combining materials and medicine in a in in 293 00:10:44,004 --> 00:10:46,289 a way that comes from that from working 294 00:10:46,289 --> 00:10:48,870 with deeply people who are deeply knowledgeable 295 00:10:49,250 --> 00:10:51,809 about the medicine and working directly with them 296 00:10:51,809 --> 00:10:53,889 to make things that not only, like, you 297 00:10:53,889 --> 00:10:55,730 know, kind of work inside a body, but 298 00:10:55,730 --> 00:10:58,049 make it better. Right? They can now heal 299 00:10:58,049 --> 00:10:58,995 things but work. 300 00:10:59,955 --> 00:11:01,955 You know, in the in the area of 301 00:11:01,955 --> 00:11:04,674 of climate and energy, which is incredibly important 302 00:11:04,674 --> 00:11:05,575 for the future, 303 00:11:06,595 --> 00:11:07,495 you know, we 304 00:11:08,034 --> 00:11:10,674 we will have new battery technologies, for example. 305 00:11:10,674 --> 00:11:14,220 There's new, non lithium batteries coming online, sodium 306 00:11:14,220 --> 00:11:17,019 batteries, for example, that'll be cheaper, that'll be 307 00:11:17,019 --> 00:11:20,320 faster, that'll be more efficient. We're working directly 308 00:11:20,620 --> 00:11:21,179 on those. 309 00:11:21,740 --> 00:11:22,399 I think 310 00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:25,039 I I'm excited to see 311 00:11:26,225 --> 00:11:27,285 how we will continue 312 00:11:27,745 --> 00:11:28,565 to address 313 00:11:29,585 --> 00:11:30,804 our needs for 314 00:11:32,144 --> 00:11:33,745 we we have a new institute for for 315 00:11:33,745 --> 00:11:36,065 climate and and sustainable growth, and so I've 316 00:11:36,065 --> 00:11:38,804 been thinking a lot about sustainable growth. And, 317 00:11:38,899 --> 00:11:40,340 you know, so we we do have a 318 00:11:40,340 --> 00:11:42,179 need for growth in our society, but, of 319 00:11:42,179 --> 00:11:44,580 course, globally as well. Right? We we all 320 00:11:44,580 --> 00:11:47,700 deserve higher living standards globally, not just in 321 00:11:47,700 --> 00:11:49,879 this country, why we deserve to have healthy, 322 00:11:50,259 --> 00:11:52,575 happy lives. That doesn't mean more money or 323 00:11:52,575 --> 00:11:53,075 technology, 324 00:11:53,934 --> 00:11:55,075 but to get there, 325 00:11:55,455 --> 00:11:57,615 we will need to equalize the amount of 326 00:11:57,615 --> 00:12:00,014 resources and technology that are available. We need 327 00:12:00,014 --> 00:12:01,855 to do that in a sustainable way. And 328 00:12:01,855 --> 00:12:04,174 to get there, we need to invent those 329 00:12:04,174 --> 00:12:05,934 technologies to make them cheap enough, to make 330 00:12:05,934 --> 00:12:09,149 them effective enough, to make them available enough 331 00:12:09,209 --> 00:12:11,450 to help lift everyone in in the world, 332 00:12:11,450 --> 00:12:13,389 not just The US, but everywhere. And so 333 00:12:13,450 --> 00:12:15,450 it's a long winded way of saying, I'm 334 00:12:15,450 --> 00:12:16,970 excited because I think we can get there. 335 00:12:16,970 --> 00:12:18,490 I think that the next five to ten 336 00:12:18,490 --> 00:12:20,730 years, because we have to, there'll be an 337 00:12:20,730 --> 00:12:24,065 explosion in in developing those sort of technologies 338 00:12:24,365 --> 00:12:26,684 across across the board. I really you know? 339 00:12:26,684 --> 00:12:28,605 And okay. I'm I'm biased toward the three 340 00:12:28,605 --> 00:12:30,205 areas that we focus on, but I think 341 00:12:30,205 --> 00:12:32,684 that these are areas that are are going 342 00:12:32,684 --> 00:12:34,365 to continue to explode in in the buy 343 00:12:34,445 --> 00:12:36,524 in the biomedical space, in the energy space, 344 00:12:36,524 --> 00:12:37,745 in the quantum space, 345 00:12:38,100 --> 00:12:39,720 and in the climate space also. 346 00:12:40,259 --> 00:12:42,339 Yeah. You talked about, you know, getting there 347 00:12:42,339 --> 00:12:43,539 in the next five to ten years. What 348 00:12:43,539 --> 00:12:45,299 are the big challenges? What are the barriers 349 00:12:45,299 --> 00:12:47,079 you have to overcome to 350 00:12:47,459 --> 00:12:49,179 to produce a quantum sense of the Yeah. 351 00:12:49,220 --> 00:12:51,720 Incense in Yeah. In the human body to 352 00:12:52,154 --> 00:12:54,794 develop sustainable materials. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, 353 00:12:54,794 --> 00:12:55,754 this brings us all the way back to 354 00:12:55,754 --> 00:12:57,914 molecular engineering in the materials space. Sometimes we 355 00:12:57,914 --> 00:12:59,674 just need to jump in materials. We need 356 00:12:59,674 --> 00:13:02,074 to be need to understand materials better to 357 00:13:02,074 --> 00:13:04,794 improve their properties. So in quantum, one of 358 00:13:04,794 --> 00:13:07,600 the biggest limitations is that we we can't 359 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,779 maintain our quantum wave functions. It's the coherence 360 00:13:09,839 --> 00:13:12,240 times. Those are often materials problems. We have 361 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,240 to know what's what is preventing what is 362 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,419 making the these quantum states unstable, 363 00:13:16,959 --> 00:13:19,120 and and how do we engineer that away. 364 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,075 And we're making strides toward that, but I 365 00:13:21,075 --> 00:13:22,355 think we have to do a better job 366 00:13:22,355 --> 00:13:24,514 of that. And or how do we engineer 367 00:13:24,514 --> 00:13:26,434 around it to mitigate those effects, like error 368 00:13:26,434 --> 00:13:28,675 correction in quantum computing? We're making strides toward 369 00:13:28,675 --> 00:13:31,394 that too. But some of that is incremental 370 00:13:31,394 --> 00:13:32,995 strides that are necessary, and some of it 371 00:13:32,995 --> 00:13:34,754 is actually jumps in knowledge. You know? It 372 00:13:34,754 --> 00:13:36,730 it you can it's when I think about 373 00:13:36,730 --> 00:13:38,730 fundamental jumps, they can be in fundamental science, 374 00:13:38,730 --> 00:13:41,209 but you also need fundamental engineering jumps. They 375 00:13:41,209 --> 00:13:43,129 think back to the transistor and why we 376 00:13:43,129 --> 00:13:43,870 have microelectronics 377 00:13:44,250 --> 00:13:46,250 today. It was the invention of the transistor 378 00:13:46,250 --> 00:13:47,929 that was one big jump. But then the 379 00:13:47,929 --> 00:13:50,009 invention of the integrated circuit, which is really 380 00:13:50,009 --> 00:13:52,195 an engineering feat, was the next big jump 381 00:13:52,195 --> 00:13:53,794 that allowed us to go from something that 382 00:13:53,794 --> 00:13:55,394 was as big as our hand to something 383 00:13:55,394 --> 00:13:58,115 that, you know, as, you know, supercomputer in 384 00:13:58,115 --> 00:14:00,754 our pocket, basically. Right? Our our phones. Right? 385 00:14:00,754 --> 00:14:02,674 All these things. So so we need some 386 00:14:02,674 --> 00:14:04,529 of those, you know a lot of the 387 00:14:04,529 --> 00:14:06,290 fundamental jumps have been made, but we need 388 00:14:06,290 --> 00:14:07,970 some of those engineering jumps to be made. 389 00:14:07,970 --> 00:14:09,330 And I think across the board in in 390 00:14:09,330 --> 00:14:11,730 battery space too. You know, we know we 391 00:14:11,730 --> 00:14:13,250 know where we want to go, but what 392 00:14:13,250 --> 00:14:14,690 are the materials that allow us to do 393 00:14:14,690 --> 00:14:16,584 that? How do we actually connect them? How 394 00:14:16,584 --> 00:14:18,264 do we think in new ways? How do 395 00:14:18,264 --> 00:14:20,105 we just kinda free our brains and have 396 00:14:20,105 --> 00:14:22,424 those moments that, okay, we can we can 397 00:14:22,424 --> 00:14:24,345 do this or even just play around and 398 00:14:24,345 --> 00:14:26,745 discover suddenly that this works in a way 399 00:14:26,745 --> 00:14:27,644 that was unexpected? 400 00:14:28,184 --> 00:14:30,480 We we need more of those moments to 401 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:31,919 build the future. And I think that as 402 00:14:31,919 --> 00:14:34,019 long as we keep supporting basic 403 00:14:34,399 --> 00:14:34,899 engineering 404 00:14:35,279 --> 00:14:37,039 and science, we'll get there. But we do 405 00:14:37,039 --> 00:14:39,139 need to keep pushing in those directions. 406 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:40,580 So 407 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,679 you talk about the the need to improve 408 00:14:43,679 --> 00:14:45,975 materials, the need to improve the the basic 409 00:14:46,214 --> 00:14:48,454 functionality. But after that, of course, there's a 410 00:14:48,454 --> 00:14:51,574 challenge of taking those things into commercialization and 411 00:14:51,574 --> 00:14:53,574 eventually to market. How what are some of 412 00:14:53,574 --> 00:14:55,654 the ideas that you have to overcome that 413 00:14:55,654 --> 00:14:57,654 that gap? Yeah. I think there's there's there's 414 00:14:57,654 --> 00:14:59,815 a broad understanding everywhere from the NSF up 415 00:14:59,815 --> 00:15:01,240 to the highest, you know, levels of government 416 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:02,940 and in the labs that we can't 417 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,480 it's not good enough to just invent something 418 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:06,759 in the lab, especially in the school of 419 00:15:06,759 --> 00:15:08,919 engineering. You really wanna get what you your 420 00:15:08,919 --> 00:15:11,240 idea to have effect, have impact. And to 421 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:12,200 do that, you have to get in the 422 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:13,804 hands of people who will use it. And 423 00:15:13,804 --> 00:15:14,924 to do that, you have to work with 424 00:15:14,924 --> 00:15:16,845 companies. You have to either start your own 425 00:15:16,845 --> 00:15:19,485 company that's gonna utilize these these devices and 426 00:15:19,485 --> 00:15:20,845 these things that you make or work with 427 00:15:20,845 --> 00:15:21,745 existing companies. 428 00:15:22,204 --> 00:15:25,024 We really believe in that. We've been, supporting 429 00:15:25,245 --> 00:15:26,784 faculty starting companies, 430 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,720 working working with companies, and working with industry 431 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,740 at every level, including having starting, 432 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,759 you know, networks that have industry come into 433 00:15:34,759 --> 00:15:36,840 our labs and tell us what their greatest 434 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,519 needs are and us tell them what we're 435 00:15:38,519 --> 00:15:40,200 working on and what's cutting edge and so 436 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:41,879 we can work together to bring things quickly 437 00:15:41,879 --> 00:15:44,904 to market. It's also important to just to 438 00:15:44,904 --> 00:15:47,004 understand that we face such big challenges 439 00:15:47,384 --> 00:15:50,125 that no one lab, no one 440 00:15:50,425 --> 00:15:53,085 school, no one university can do this alone. 441 00:15:53,225 --> 00:15:54,825 And one of the things that has really 442 00:15:54,825 --> 00:15:57,209 attracted me the most to being in Chicago 443 00:15:57,209 --> 00:15:59,549 and at the University of Chicago is that 444 00:16:00,169 --> 00:16:02,089 we've been able to participate in and really 445 00:16:02,089 --> 00:16:03,309 help create ecosystems 446 00:16:03,850 --> 00:16:04,350 that 447 00:16:04,809 --> 00:16:05,309 build 448 00:16:06,409 --> 00:16:09,129 industries and that build these connections between basic 449 00:16:09,129 --> 00:16:10,110 research and 450 00:16:10,504 --> 00:16:13,225 impact as efficiently as possible. So we work 451 00:16:13,225 --> 00:16:15,865 with the national labs very, very closely. We 452 00:16:15,865 --> 00:16:17,945 work with with companies. We work with the 453 00:16:17,945 --> 00:16:20,345 government. We work with the other universities across 454 00:16:20,345 --> 00:16:22,264 the state and across Midwest and and across 455 00:16:22,264 --> 00:16:24,320 the world even to make sure that we 456 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:25,379 create ecosystems 457 00:16:25,759 --> 00:16:26,500 that support 458 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:27,700 research, 459 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:28,660 products, 460 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,100 impact, and improve lives as efficiently as possible. 461 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,240 And we've done that in the quantum sphere 462 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:35,920 here in Chicago. I think we've we've really 463 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:37,840 helped make Chicago the the center of the 464 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,154 quantum world. This happened because of a big 465 00:16:40,154 --> 00:16:42,955 support from the government, the governor from especially 466 00:16:42,955 --> 00:16:45,195 the state government, governor Pritzker, has been incredibly 467 00:16:45,195 --> 00:16:48,075 supportive of quantum. We've worked really closely with 468 00:16:48,075 --> 00:16:50,715 our our state universities, University of Illinois, with 469 00:16:50,715 --> 00:16:53,230 Northwestern University, and with the labs, and been 470 00:16:53,230 --> 00:16:55,470 able to build something where quantum companies now 471 00:16:55,470 --> 00:16:57,410 want to come here to work with researchers, 472 00:16:57,790 --> 00:16:59,950 to build things, to test, to make sure 473 00:16:59,950 --> 00:17:02,029 that we can just get this technology furthered 474 00:17:02,029 --> 00:17:04,029 as as quickly as possible. And we wanna 475 00:17:04,029 --> 00:17:05,549 do that in the energy sphere. We wanna 476 00:17:05,549 --> 00:17:07,230 do that in the biosphere. We wanna make 477 00:17:07,230 --> 00:17:08,894 sure that that we're 478 00:17:09,434 --> 00:17:11,994 having impact as efficiently as possible. And we're 479 00:17:11,994 --> 00:17:13,694 getting really good at that. So I'm I'm 480 00:17:13,755 --> 00:17:15,434 incredibly excited to see what happens in the 481 00:17:15,434 --> 00:17:16,795 next five years. So I think there'll there'll 482 00:17:16,795 --> 00:17:18,494 be a lot a lot of positive change. 483 00:17:19,434 --> 00:17:21,799 Elijah Mason, thank you very much. My pleasure. 484 00:17:28,819 --> 00:17:31,619 That was Nadia Mason of the University of 485 00:17:31,619 --> 00:17:32,119 Chicago 486 00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:35,720 in conversation with Physics World's Margaret Harris. 487 00:17:36,734 --> 00:17:39,875 Now, Margaret speaks with Jeffrey Spangenberger, 488 00:17:40,815 --> 00:17:42,115 who leads the Materials 489 00:17:42,494 --> 00:17:45,634 Recycling Group at Argonne National Laboratory. 490 00:17:46,494 --> 00:17:48,835 They talk about the Resell Center, 491 00:17:49,220 --> 00:17:49,880 a national 492 00:17:50,180 --> 00:17:51,799 collaboration of industry, 493 00:17:52,339 --> 00:17:52,839 academia, 494 00:17:53,299 --> 00:17:54,680 and national laboratories 495 00:17:55,220 --> 00:17:56,039 that Spangenberger 496 00:17:56,580 --> 00:17:57,080 leads. 497 00:17:57,539 --> 00:17:59,480 He explains how ReCell 498 00:17:59,779 --> 00:18:00,519 is advancing 499 00:18:00,820 --> 00:18:01,320 recycling 500 00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:03,664 for current and future 501 00:18:03,965 --> 00:18:05,105 battery technologies. 502 00:18:13,005 --> 00:18:14,365 The first thing I wanted to ask, you 503 00:18:14,365 --> 00:18:16,309 know, just as when you're talking about battery 504 00:18:16,309 --> 00:18:17,830 recycling, what types of batteries are we talking 505 00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:19,029 about? Are we talking about the batteries in 506 00:18:19,029 --> 00:18:20,809 your phone, batteries in your car, 507 00:18:21,670 --> 00:18:22,650 both, everything? 508 00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:23,450 Yeah. 509 00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:24,730 Specifically, 510 00:18:25,029 --> 00:18:27,450 right now, we're focused on lithium ion batteries. 511 00:18:28,384 --> 00:18:31,204 Not lithium metal batteries, lithium ion batteries. 512 00:18:31,904 --> 00:18:33,505 But they can be in your car, in 513 00:18:33,505 --> 00:18:34,964 your EV, your hybrid, 514 00:18:35,585 --> 00:18:37,984 or they could be in your phone, your 515 00:18:37,984 --> 00:18:38,644 cell phone. 516 00:18:39,024 --> 00:18:40,964 They could also be in storage 517 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,539 applications, so the grid 518 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,140 or your your house backup, things like that. 519 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,240 So how do you recycle a battery? Like, 520 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:51,619 what goes into that process? 521 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:52,740 So 522 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,000 the actual process of of a battery is 523 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:56,500 done 524 00:18:57,255 --> 00:18:59,994 more prominently in two different fashions. There's 525 00:19:00,615 --> 00:19:01,115 hydrometallurgical 526 00:19:01,654 --> 00:19:03,035 recycling, and there's pyrometallurgical 527 00:19:03,494 --> 00:19:03,994 recycling. 528 00:19:05,494 --> 00:19:06,315 In pyrometallurgical 529 00:19:06,775 --> 00:19:07,275 recycling, 530 00:19:07,815 --> 00:19:10,934 we use heat to essentially burn off with 531 00:19:10,934 --> 00:19:11,515 the organics, 532 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,220 and then the metals are recovered 533 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:15,180 in, 534 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:16,539 in the furnace. 535 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,259 And there's two fractions. There's, 536 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,200 a metal alloy, which has a lot of 537 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,279 the great metals, and then the copper, the 538 00:19:24,279 --> 00:19:25,180 precious metals, 539 00:19:25,595 --> 00:19:26,875 which are not really in too much on 540 00:19:26,875 --> 00:19:28,714 a battery except maybe on a on a 541 00:19:28,714 --> 00:19:31,355 electric panel or something like that. But there 542 00:19:31,355 --> 00:19:33,275 is also a slag, and then that slag 543 00:19:33,275 --> 00:19:34,894 contains lithium metal, 544 00:19:35,355 --> 00:19:35,855 unfortunately, 545 00:19:36,234 --> 00:19:38,315 as well as aluminum. Those two are in 546 00:19:38,315 --> 00:19:38,974 in batteries. 547 00:19:39,390 --> 00:19:40,990 They can be recovered, but it's a little 548 00:19:40,990 --> 00:19:43,009 bit more difficult than they would be normally. 549 00:19:43,309 --> 00:19:43,809 So 550 00:19:44,430 --> 00:19:45,490 that's one of the 551 00:19:45,789 --> 00:19:47,170 the issues with pyro. 552 00:19:47,789 --> 00:19:49,630 That's not to say that pyro isn't good. 553 00:19:49,630 --> 00:19:51,549 There are a lot of good applications for 554 00:19:51,549 --> 00:19:52,049 pyro. 555 00:19:52,434 --> 00:19:54,994 And and there's not one hydro or pyro 556 00:19:54,994 --> 00:19:57,154 is not gonna take over the world in 557 00:19:57,154 --> 00:19:58,855 recycling. There are a lot of different 558 00:19:59,315 --> 00:20:00,695 pros and cons of each. 559 00:20:01,234 --> 00:20:03,174 In hydro metallurgic or recycling, 560 00:20:03,955 --> 00:20:04,615 you usually 561 00:20:04,994 --> 00:20:07,575 shred the battery to liberate the metals. 562 00:20:07,940 --> 00:20:10,420 Metals are typically what you're going after as 563 00:20:10,420 --> 00:20:11,960 a number one material. 564 00:20:12,740 --> 00:20:13,960 You put it in acid. 565 00:20:14,819 --> 00:20:17,940 You dissolve the the metals, and then you 566 00:20:17,940 --> 00:20:18,440 can 567 00:20:18,819 --> 00:20:20,805 separate those metals out 568 00:20:21,285 --> 00:20:23,525 and and recover them and put them into 569 00:20:23,525 --> 00:20:25,625 new new products that way. 570 00:20:26,565 --> 00:20:28,085 So those are the two main ones. We 571 00:20:28,085 --> 00:20:29,045 also work, 572 00:20:29,365 --> 00:20:32,325 along with some other companies on direct recycling, 573 00:20:32,325 --> 00:20:34,105 which is a third type of recycling. 574 00:20:35,125 --> 00:20:37,589 There's also the other materials other than metals 575 00:20:37,589 --> 00:20:39,609 that you wanna get from recycling, plastics. 576 00:20:40,230 --> 00:20:40,630 There's, 577 00:20:41,509 --> 00:20:43,349 fluorinated products, which we need to make sure 578 00:20:43,349 --> 00:20:44,570 we keep our eye on. 579 00:20:44,950 --> 00:20:46,470 That would be in the polymers that are 580 00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:48,230 in the some of the polymers that are 581 00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:49,930 in a a lithium ion battery. 582 00:20:50,855 --> 00:20:53,414 The electrolyte salt has fluorine in it. So 583 00:20:53,414 --> 00:20:54,875 these are all materials that, 584 00:20:55,174 --> 00:20:56,634 you know, should be dealt with. 585 00:20:57,255 --> 00:20:58,555 What else is in a battery? 586 00:20:59,255 --> 00:21:01,994 The anode. So the anode is typically graphite. 587 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,119 It it is a larger portion of the 588 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,759 battery mass wise, and so we wanna we 589 00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:10,559 wanna reuse those materials as much as possible. 590 00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:11,220 In fact, 591 00:21:11,599 --> 00:21:13,700 natural graphite is a critical material 592 00:21:14,799 --> 00:21:17,315 that not many people think about. But and 593 00:21:17,315 --> 00:21:19,954 and there's both synthetic and graphite and and 594 00:21:19,954 --> 00:21:22,775 natural graphite in these batteries, so 595 00:21:23,315 --> 00:21:25,234 it's important that we recycle those as well 596 00:21:25,234 --> 00:21:26,994 and not just go after the money making 597 00:21:26,994 --> 00:21:27,494 metals. 598 00:21:28,434 --> 00:21:29,875 So how do you get to me it's 599 00:21:29,875 --> 00:21:32,115 kind of easy conceptually to imagine, okay, in 600 00:21:32,115 --> 00:21:33,789 some some way that with metal, you melt 601 00:21:33,789 --> 00:21:35,150 it down and then you work out what 602 00:21:35,230 --> 00:21:37,789 you know, there's various quite established processes for 603 00:21:37,789 --> 00:21:39,789 us to separate it out. How do you 604 00:21:39,789 --> 00:21:41,170 recycle something like 605 00:21:41,630 --> 00:21:43,070 graphite, or how do you recycle some of 606 00:21:43,070 --> 00:21:45,070 the fluorinated compounds that you need to recycle, 607 00:21:45,070 --> 00:21:47,070 presumably because they they would otherwise get into 608 00:21:47,070 --> 00:21:49,825 the environment to do bad things there. Right. 609 00:21:49,884 --> 00:21:51,904 Yeah. So with graphite, there's 610 00:21:52,365 --> 00:21:53,585 people working on it. 611 00:21:53,965 --> 00:21:56,205 The way that you process a battery can 612 00:21:56,205 --> 00:21:56,705 have 613 00:21:57,325 --> 00:21:59,085 I don't still wanna say good things happen 614 00:21:59,085 --> 00:22:01,164 to it, but maybe not bad things or 615 00:22:01,164 --> 00:22:02,765 bad things happen to it. Like, if you 616 00:22:02,765 --> 00:22:04,490 put graphite in in acid, 617 00:22:04,869 --> 00:22:06,230 a lot of times that makes it more 618 00:22:06,230 --> 00:22:08,549 difficult to reuse in new batteries. The the 619 00:22:08,549 --> 00:22:10,789 best way is to take the material and 620 00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:12,089 reuse it in a new battery. 621 00:22:12,630 --> 00:22:14,809 Fix it, basically, rinse it off, 622 00:22:15,589 --> 00:22:17,130 refurbish it, if you will. 623 00:22:17,865 --> 00:22:19,325 It's not that easy, though. 624 00:22:19,625 --> 00:22:22,045 There are processes that make that part easier, 625 00:22:22,505 --> 00:22:24,105 but you can also use graphite for a 626 00:22:24,105 --> 00:22:26,505 lot of different material sources. So and that's 627 00:22:26,505 --> 00:22:28,904 good. And recycling, you know, it's really important, 628 00:22:28,904 --> 00:22:30,525 I think, to to try and 629 00:22:30,859 --> 00:22:32,299 close that loop. If it's in a car, 630 00:22:32,299 --> 00:22:33,920 put it back in a car. But sometimes, 631 00:22:35,340 --> 00:22:37,660 if you don't put it back into the 632 00:22:37,660 --> 00:22:38,640 original application, 633 00:22:40,059 --> 00:22:43,515 you still are relieving it from sourcing somewhere 634 00:22:43,515 --> 00:22:45,434 else for another product. Right? So maybe it 635 00:22:45,434 --> 00:22:46,795 doesn't go into a battery. Maybe it goes 636 00:22:46,795 --> 00:22:49,535 into a reductant or something in our furnace. 637 00:22:49,994 --> 00:22:50,815 With the 638 00:22:51,115 --> 00:22:52,015 the fluorines, 639 00:22:52,715 --> 00:22:53,295 I think 640 00:22:53,835 --> 00:22:54,894 that's a real challenge 641 00:22:55,259 --> 00:22:56,940 with with how we deal with that is 642 00:22:56,940 --> 00:22:58,799 they're in low quantities in a battery. 643 00:22:59,660 --> 00:23:02,619 And pyro, actually, what happens is they're well, 644 00:23:02,619 --> 00:23:03,920 they go up into the, 645 00:23:04,619 --> 00:23:06,720 exhaust, and they're captured and treated. 646 00:23:07,420 --> 00:23:07,920 So, 647 00:23:08,299 --> 00:23:09,519 so you collect them. 648 00:23:10,164 --> 00:23:10,904 In hydro, 649 00:23:11,684 --> 00:23:13,204 there's a lot of work that's going on 650 00:23:13,204 --> 00:23:15,384 now, especially with PFAS being a 651 00:23:15,684 --> 00:23:16,505 a big consideration. 652 00:23:17,204 --> 00:23:19,944 There's work to remove it. There's work to 653 00:23:20,164 --> 00:23:22,664 capture it when we're recycling it as well. 654 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,039 Why is it so important that we get 655 00:23:25,039 --> 00:23:26,980 better at recycling batteries? 656 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:28,580 Yeah. Great question. 657 00:23:29,279 --> 00:23:31,279 The the funny thing is on the other 658 00:23:31,279 --> 00:23:33,359 side of the lab, he's probably gonna be 659 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,359 talking about all the great work that's going 660 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:36,400 into making the batteries 661 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:37,859 the new batteries 662 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:38,660 better. 663 00:23:39,005 --> 00:23:40,525 And when you make a new battery better, 664 00:23:40,525 --> 00:23:43,744 it usually means cutting cost and improving performance. 665 00:23:44,525 --> 00:23:46,384 When you cut costs specifically, 666 00:23:47,565 --> 00:23:48,705 it makes recycling 667 00:23:49,164 --> 00:23:49,985 more difficult 668 00:23:50,605 --> 00:23:53,184 because we need money on the back end 669 00:23:53,325 --> 00:23:54,545 to fund those processes. 670 00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:56,710 So if you take all the valuable metals 671 00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:58,150 out there, you take out the cost of 672 00:23:58,150 --> 00:23:58,890 the materials, 673 00:23:59,349 --> 00:24:01,750 it makes recycling harder. So that's why we 674 00:24:01,750 --> 00:24:03,289 need to be better at recycling. 675 00:24:03,990 --> 00:24:05,930 And so it's important that we don't just 676 00:24:06,309 --> 00:24:07,184 work at this, 677 00:24:07,745 --> 00:24:08,644 find a solution, 678 00:24:09,265 --> 00:24:09,765 and 679 00:24:10,065 --> 00:24:12,625 call it good. We gotta continue to to 680 00:24:12,625 --> 00:24:14,705 improve because it's gonna be more difficult as 681 00:24:14,705 --> 00:24:16,565 we go down the road. Plus new chemistries, 682 00:24:17,424 --> 00:24:19,745 we always need to to work on what's 683 00:24:19,745 --> 00:24:22,144 what's coming down the road that we're gonna 684 00:24:22,144 --> 00:24:24,299 be seeing in our recycling plants. 685 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,680 What about the sort of supply chain aspect? 686 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:27,880 I mean, some of them some of these, 687 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,000 materials, particularly the metals, high value metals, it's 688 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,840 not just that it's expensive to develop and 689 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,440 it's there's a finite amount of them out 690 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,704 there, and they may not necessarily be in 691 00:24:36,944 --> 00:24:38,944 locations that are easy to get at. That's 692 00:24:38,944 --> 00:24:39,444 right. 693 00:24:39,744 --> 00:24:41,204 So, you know, The US 694 00:24:41,904 --> 00:24:42,404 is 695 00:24:42,704 --> 00:24:43,204 very 696 00:24:43,984 --> 00:24:46,544 low in quantities of these materials that go 697 00:24:46,544 --> 00:24:48,304 into the batteries. We get them from other 698 00:24:48,304 --> 00:24:50,890 countries, and it puts us at a security 699 00:24:50,890 --> 00:24:51,390 risk. 700 00:24:51,930 --> 00:24:52,430 So 701 00:24:52,730 --> 00:24:55,529 recycling is important from that perspective because we 702 00:24:55,529 --> 00:24:56,990 want to get these materials, 703 00:24:57,289 --> 00:24:59,610 buy them once from another country, get them 704 00:24:59,610 --> 00:25:01,130 here and keep them here and recycle them 705 00:25:01,130 --> 00:25:03,549 and keep them within our domestic boundaries. 706 00:25:04,015 --> 00:25:05,794 Another reason to recycle is 707 00:25:06,414 --> 00:25:06,914 because 708 00:25:07,454 --> 00:25:09,375 in some predictions, if we don't change our 709 00:25:09,375 --> 00:25:11,615 chemistries, we're gonna actually run out of the 710 00:25:11,615 --> 00:25:14,035 materials, not have enough to meet our projections. 711 00:25:14,575 --> 00:25:17,190 Cobalt, specifically, is really difficult. So we have 712 00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:19,109 to recycle those materials to make sure that 713 00:25:19,109 --> 00:25:20,169 we have them available 714 00:25:20,549 --> 00:25:22,549 instead of just mining them, using them, and 715 00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:23,529 throwing them off. 716 00:25:24,230 --> 00:25:27,109 What are the main challenges facing a center 717 00:25:27,109 --> 00:25:28,649 like this in trying to develop 718 00:25:29,025 --> 00:25:30,965 better ways of recycled batteries? 719 00:25:32,465 --> 00:25:33,605 I see. I think 720 00:25:34,224 --> 00:25:36,305 there's two answers that I wanna I wanna 721 00:25:36,305 --> 00:25:39,025 give to that. One is our objective is 722 00:25:39,025 --> 00:25:40,164 to help industry. 723 00:25:41,099 --> 00:25:42,559 We want industry to succeed. 724 00:25:43,099 --> 00:25:45,259 And so there's a lot of good challenges 725 00:25:45,259 --> 00:25:46,140 out there that are, 726 00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:48,160 that we're excited to tackle. 727 00:25:48,940 --> 00:25:51,200 And so we do work with industry. 728 00:25:51,579 --> 00:25:54,619 We work together collaboratively with them to address 729 00:25:54,619 --> 00:25:55,440 these challenges. 730 00:25:57,065 --> 00:25:58,924 The other aspect of that is 731 00:25:59,384 --> 00:26:01,484 and this gets back into the direct recycling. 732 00:26:02,744 --> 00:26:03,484 We'll do 733 00:26:03,945 --> 00:26:04,765 some more 734 00:26:05,224 --> 00:26:06,204 far out research. 735 00:26:07,065 --> 00:26:08,904 We'll look at some of the more challenging 736 00:26:08,904 --> 00:26:11,940 stuff that industry maybe doesn't wanna spend the 737 00:26:11,940 --> 00:26:12,680 money on. 738 00:26:13,380 --> 00:26:16,440 And so we'll look at things like, originally, 739 00:26:16,660 --> 00:26:18,839 direct recycling was a very 740 00:26:19,460 --> 00:26:22,339 not well known. It was a not unknown, 741 00:26:22,339 --> 00:26:25,204 but not well known method of recycling batteries. 742 00:26:25,265 --> 00:26:26,785 That's you you have a battery and you 743 00:26:26,785 --> 00:26:28,505 make another battery with it. A little bit 744 00:26:28,625 --> 00:26:30,464 to be more specific on that, I guess, 745 00:26:30,464 --> 00:26:31,365 I would say 746 00:26:31,904 --> 00:26:34,384 direct recycling is to take it could be 747 00:26:34,384 --> 00:26:36,704 any material, but we focus on the cathode 748 00:26:36,704 --> 00:26:37,444 of the battery. 749 00:26:37,980 --> 00:26:39,440 So we take the cathode, 750 00:26:40,059 --> 00:26:41,980 and instead of putting in an acid and 751 00:26:41,980 --> 00:26:43,119 dissolving the metal 752 00:26:43,660 --> 00:26:45,900 into metal ions or putting it in a 753 00:26:45,900 --> 00:26:48,380 furnace and melting it down into a a 754 00:26:48,380 --> 00:26:49,759 reduced metal alloy, 755 00:26:50,619 --> 00:26:52,160 we keep it as a cathode. 756 00:26:53,054 --> 00:26:54,974 We fix it while it's still a cathode. 757 00:26:54,974 --> 00:26:57,554 It's never changing its cathode structure, 758 00:26:58,414 --> 00:27:00,654 and we're making new cathode out of it 759 00:27:00,654 --> 00:27:02,174 so it can go into a new battery. 760 00:27:02,174 --> 00:27:03,875 And the reason that's so important 761 00:27:04,494 --> 00:27:05,234 is because 762 00:27:05,774 --> 00:27:08,680 to make cathode, which is the most expensive 763 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:09,660 part of a battery, 764 00:27:10,279 --> 00:27:12,440 it has two portions. There's the materials that 765 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,860 go into it, and then there's the processing, 766 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,700 the manufacturing cost of it. 767 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,080 When you dissolve in an acid or melt 768 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,299 it in a in a furnace, 769 00:27:20,625 --> 00:27:22,404 you have to take those materials 770 00:27:23,025 --> 00:27:25,265 and remanufacture that into a cathode, and that 771 00:27:25,265 --> 00:27:27,345 can be a substantial amount of the money 772 00:27:27,345 --> 00:27:28,244 to make cathode. 773 00:27:28,865 --> 00:27:31,265 So if you don't do that, the value 774 00:27:31,265 --> 00:27:32,005 is basically, 775 00:27:32,509 --> 00:27:33,570 in in some cases, 776 00:27:34,350 --> 00:27:35,950 half of the cost of a battery may 777 00:27:35,950 --> 00:27:38,529 be from raw materials. Sometimes 10% 778 00:27:38,990 --> 00:27:41,470 is just is the raw materials, and 90% 779 00:27:41,470 --> 00:27:43,570 is the processing cost. And so 780 00:27:44,269 --> 00:27:46,610 huge opportunity for cost gains, 781 00:27:47,414 --> 00:27:49,115 improve economy and environmental, 782 00:27:49,735 --> 00:27:50,235 impacts. 783 00:27:51,255 --> 00:27:52,634 The the website mentions 784 00:27:53,015 --> 00:27:56,315 that Resell is working to advance recycling technologies 785 00:27:56,375 --> 00:27:59,174 for current and future battery chemistries. Mhmm. What 786 00:27:59,174 --> 00:27:59,914 is Resell? 787 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:01,099 Good question. 788 00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:05,900 So resell is is a federally funded program 789 00:28:06,839 --> 00:28:10,119 that is a a collaboration of four national 790 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:10,619 laboratories, 791 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:12,779 Argonne National Laboratory, 792 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,619 Oak Ridge National Laboratory, 793 00:28:15,315 --> 00:28:17,414 the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, 794 00:28:17,714 --> 00:28:19,255 and Idaho National Laboratory. 795 00:28:19,714 --> 00:28:21,634 We also have some universities that are doing 796 00:28:21,634 --> 00:28:23,875 work with us. But they have these four 797 00:28:23,875 --> 00:28:24,774 focus areas, 798 00:28:25,154 --> 00:28:25,974 direct recycling, 799 00:28:26,434 --> 00:28:27,894 advanced resource recovery, 800 00:28:28,950 --> 00:28:31,529 design for sustainability, and modeling and analysis. 801 00:28:32,069 --> 00:28:34,470 And all of these focus areas are used 802 00:28:34,470 --> 00:28:36,390 in order to reach the ultimate goal of 803 00:28:36,390 --> 00:28:38,169 lowering the cost of new batteries. 804 00:28:39,109 --> 00:28:41,204 The whole thing has to come down to 805 00:28:41,365 --> 00:28:42,585 or comes down to 806 00:28:43,044 --> 00:28:43,544 decarbonizing 807 00:28:44,484 --> 00:28:45,144 our planet. 808 00:28:45,765 --> 00:28:46,265 And, 809 00:28:46,804 --> 00:28:49,285 to do that, batteries do a great job 810 00:28:49,285 --> 00:28:50,964 at it. And we wanna get more people 811 00:28:50,964 --> 00:28:53,125 driving EVs and using them in the grid 812 00:28:53,125 --> 00:28:54,964 and and all these applications. To do that, 813 00:28:54,964 --> 00:28:57,059 we need to lower the cost, And recycling 814 00:28:57,059 --> 00:28:59,159 is a huge opportunity to do that. 815 00:29:00,500 --> 00:29:03,159 I'm really interested about this and future chemistries. 816 00:29:03,619 --> 00:29:05,380 What are those chemistries, and how much is 817 00:29:05,380 --> 00:29:05,880 recyclability 818 00:29:06,259 --> 00:29:08,980 taken into account when people are developing new 819 00:29:08,980 --> 00:29:10,359 battery types? Yeah. 820 00:29:10,795 --> 00:29:12,714 Great question. You you do ask all the 821 00:29:12,714 --> 00:29:13,455 good questions. 822 00:29:13,994 --> 00:29:14,494 So 823 00:29:15,195 --> 00:29:17,695 we spend some time looking at 824 00:29:18,075 --> 00:29:18,815 new chemistries. 825 00:29:19,515 --> 00:29:21,295 We don't spend too much time because 826 00:29:21,755 --> 00:29:23,099 as you probably know, 827 00:29:23,660 --> 00:29:25,579 some people may not. But, like, you'll see 828 00:29:25,579 --> 00:29:26,400 in the news, 829 00:29:27,660 --> 00:29:30,299 some group found the solution to the batteries, 830 00:29:30,299 --> 00:29:32,220 and it's gonna last a million years and 831 00:29:32,220 --> 00:29:33,740 all that stuff. But you see it all 832 00:29:33,740 --> 00:29:35,444 over the place, and that may be at 833 00:29:35,764 --> 00:29:36,984 milligram quantity, 834 00:29:38,244 --> 00:29:38,744 scales 835 00:29:39,605 --> 00:29:40,005 or, 836 00:29:40,565 --> 00:29:43,125 you know, maybe not feasible at in large 837 00:29:43,125 --> 00:29:43,625 quantity. 838 00:29:44,005 --> 00:29:46,664 So we take advantage of in a vehicle, 839 00:29:47,524 --> 00:29:49,764 a vehicle last fifteen years. So if it's 840 00:29:49,764 --> 00:29:50,664 not in production, 841 00:29:51,940 --> 00:29:53,860 we we know we don't need to worry 842 00:29:53,860 --> 00:29:55,620 about it too much. But we wanna make 843 00:29:55,620 --> 00:29:57,240 sure that we're looking at chemistries 844 00:29:58,100 --> 00:30:00,340 that are starting to take shape that are 845 00:30:00,340 --> 00:30:02,100 gonna end up on a vehicle or in 846 00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:02,759 some application. 847 00:30:03,505 --> 00:30:05,585 And we wanna make sure that it's not 848 00:30:05,585 --> 00:30:07,365 going to cause a big problem 849 00:30:08,144 --> 00:30:10,865 because you can contaminate a big stream if 850 00:30:10,865 --> 00:30:12,065 you have a little bit of something in 851 00:30:12,065 --> 00:30:13,505 it. So if they're using a little bit 852 00:30:13,505 --> 00:30:15,284 of something in it, we wanna 853 00:30:15,919 --> 00:30:18,419 recommend that they don't go with that chemistry. 854 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,779 So we have four focus areas in resell. 855 00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:24,339 There is direct recycling. 856 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,460 There is, advanced resource recovery. 857 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,140 That's our second one. Advanced resource recovery is 858 00:30:31,815 --> 00:30:34,134 the, recovery of materials that we can't directly 859 00:30:34,134 --> 00:30:34,634 recycle. 860 00:30:35,494 --> 00:30:37,674 Then there is modeling and analysis 861 00:30:38,454 --> 00:30:38,954 and 862 00:30:39,335 --> 00:30:40,554 design for sustainability. 863 00:30:40,855 --> 00:30:43,274 And design for sustainability is what I wanna 864 00:30:43,335 --> 00:30:43,835 mention. 865 00:30:45,170 --> 00:30:48,390 We want to make our batteries, use materials, 866 00:30:48,769 --> 00:30:50,150 use assembly methods 867 00:30:50,930 --> 00:30:52,930 in a way we wanna make them better. 868 00:30:52,930 --> 00:30:55,170 We wanna design better ways, better materials to 869 00:30:55,170 --> 00:30:57,430 put into our batteries so that the recycling 870 00:30:58,054 --> 00:31:00,634 can be handled more easily, more cost effectively. 871 00:31:01,414 --> 00:31:04,134 And that's probably the most challenging focus area 872 00:31:04,134 --> 00:31:05,595 that we have is 873 00:31:05,974 --> 00:31:08,154 trying to change what's working today 874 00:31:08,535 --> 00:31:10,794 so that it's easier to recycle tomorrow. 875 00:31:12,259 --> 00:31:14,599 It's it's just when things aren't broken, 876 00:31:15,139 --> 00:31:16,440 don't fix them kinda 877 00:31:16,899 --> 00:31:18,500 just challenging. But those are the things that 878 00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:20,899 we're doing, we're very aware of. And you 879 00:31:20,899 --> 00:31:22,659 think about anything when you look around a 880 00:31:22,659 --> 00:31:25,700 room, what's designed for recycling? What's designed for 881 00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:26,200 sustainability? 882 00:31:27,355 --> 00:31:29,674 There are some, like, our water bottles got 883 00:31:29,674 --> 00:31:32,015 thinner plastics. Right? So that's good. 884 00:31:32,394 --> 00:31:34,954 And I think that's always a consideration. But 885 00:31:34,954 --> 00:31:36,714 what, you know, what big changes can we 886 00:31:36,714 --> 00:31:38,714 make that are really gonna catapult us into 887 00:31:38,714 --> 00:31:40,335 the next generation of design? 888 00:31:40,714 --> 00:31:42,095 I think that's really cool. 889 00:31:42,679 --> 00:31:44,059 Final question then. You know? 890 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,519 What's what's the dream here? Where's where's the 891 00:31:46,519 --> 00:31:48,759 field headache? Give me your your sort of 892 00:31:48,759 --> 00:31:50,919 vision for a future of battery cycle. How 893 00:31:50,919 --> 00:31:52,359 how would it work in your sort of 894 00:31:52,359 --> 00:31:53,339 ideal system? 895 00:31:54,039 --> 00:31:54,539 Oh, 896 00:31:54,875 --> 00:31:56,494 how much time do you have? 897 00:31:56,875 --> 00:31:58,875 No. I think the real quick answer or 898 00:31:58,875 --> 00:32:00,575 the quickest answer is 899 00:32:01,035 --> 00:32:03,535 it's circular. We get to that circular 900 00:32:04,154 --> 00:32:06,634 economy that that people like to say. So 901 00:32:06,634 --> 00:32:08,414 we buy these materials once. 902 00:32:08,789 --> 00:32:09,769 And in the beginning, 903 00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:12,170 you know, I'm not naive to think that 904 00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:15,590 these batteries are gonna power our vehicles or 905 00:32:15,590 --> 00:32:17,369 store the energy that powers our vehicles 906 00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:20,390 forever. Right? There's this s curve. So we're 907 00:32:20,390 --> 00:32:21,910 just we're at the bottom of the s 908 00:32:21,910 --> 00:32:24,365 curve. But as we get more materials available 909 00:32:24,365 --> 00:32:26,125 for recycling, we can put them into the 910 00:32:26,125 --> 00:32:28,125 recycling that we have. And, eventually, there's that 911 00:32:28,125 --> 00:32:30,444 inflection point where we can put most of 912 00:32:30,444 --> 00:32:31,744 that material into 913 00:32:32,125 --> 00:32:32,625 recycling 914 00:32:33,005 --> 00:32:34,144 into new products, 915 00:32:34,525 --> 00:32:35,585 and we can actually 916 00:32:36,569 --> 00:32:39,470 require very little material to make our batteries. 917 00:32:39,609 --> 00:32:42,009 At some point, though, something's gonna replace lithium 918 00:32:42,009 --> 00:32:44,250 ion batteries just like we're replacing the internal 919 00:32:44,250 --> 00:32:45,549 combustion engine now. 920 00:32:46,250 --> 00:32:47,069 And so 921 00:32:47,450 --> 00:32:48,349 during the lifespan 922 00:32:48,730 --> 00:32:50,569 or the majority of the lifespan of these 923 00:32:50,569 --> 00:32:51,630 lithium ion batteries, 924 00:32:51,955 --> 00:32:53,475 I think, you know, towards the end, we 925 00:32:53,475 --> 00:32:55,575 wanna be able to have this complete circularity 926 00:32:56,195 --> 00:32:58,434 or near complete circularity so that we don't 927 00:32:58,434 --> 00:33:01,154 have this this security risk of relying on 928 00:33:01,154 --> 00:33:04,355 other other countries. We have cost. You know, 929 00:33:04,355 --> 00:33:06,695 if you have a a pile of dirt 930 00:33:07,369 --> 00:33:08,750 and a pile of batteries, 931 00:33:09,289 --> 00:33:10,730 you know, which one would you think would 932 00:33:10,730 --> 00:33:12,890 be cheaper to get the raw materials to 933 00:33:12,890 --> 00:33:15,769 make a battery from? Right? It's probably from 934 00:33:15,769 --> 00:33:16,269 batteries. 935 00:33:16,650 --> 00:33:18,730 Now we just happen to be processing dirt 936 00:33:18,730 --> 00:33:20,090 for so long. We're good at it, and 937 00:33:20,090 --> 00:33:22,484 we're at scale, and we're not. Recycling batteries 938 00:33:22,484 --> 00:33:24,744 is very new. But, eventually, they're gonna equalize, 939 00:33:25,285 --> 00:33:27,045 and, and they're gonna be a great resource 940 00:33:27,045 --> 00:33:29,224 for those materials. So yeah. 941 00:33:29,924 --> 00:33:31,144 Thank you very much. 942 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,539 That was Jeffrey Spangenberger 943 00:33:41,079 --> 00:33:43,099 of Argonne National Laboratory 944 00:33:43,559 --> 00:33:44,460 in conversation 945 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,259 with Physics World's Margaret Harris. 946 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,304 Before that, Margaret spoke with Nadia Mason of 947 00:33:51,304 --> 00:33:52,924 the University of Chicago. 948 00:33:53,384 --> 00:33:55,785 Thanks to all three of them for coming 949 00:33:55,785 --> 00:33:56,765 on the podcast. 950 00:33:57,464 --> 00:34:00,184 And a special thanks to our producer, Fred 951 00:34:00,184 --> 00:34:00,684 Isles. 952 00:34:01,224 --> 00:34:03,720 On the May, 953 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,419 The Economist is hosting 954 00:34:05,799 --> 00:34:06,299 commercializing 955 00:34:06,919 --> 00:34:07,900 quantum global 956 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,380 twenty twenty five in London. 957 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:11,420 Participants 958 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,059 will join global leaders from business, 959 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:15,739 science, and policy 960 00:34:16,194 --> 00:34:19,635 for two days of real world insights into 961 00:34:19,635 --> 00:34:20,775 quantum's future. 962 00:34:21,234 --> 00:34:25,174 In London, you'll explore breakthroughs in quantum computing, 963 00:34:25,635 --> 00:34:26,135 communications, 964 00:34:26,594 --> 00:34:27,335 and sensing. 965 00:34:27,635 --> 00:34:29,655 And you'll discover how these technologies 966 00:34:30,114 --> 00:34:31,574 are shaping industries, 967 00:34:32,329 --> 00:34:34,590 economies, and global regulation. 968 00:34:35,369 --> 00:34:40,989 You can register for the event at events.economist.com. 969 00:34:41,289 --> 00:34:43,210 I'm afraid that's all the time we have 970 00:34:43,210 --> 00:34:44,429 for this week's podcast. 971 00:34:44,889 --> 00:34:47,210 We'll be back again next week. See you 972 00:34:47,210 --> 00:34:47,710 then.