1 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,219 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly 2 00:00:11,279 --> 00:00:11,779 podcast. 3 00:00:12,705 --> 00:00:15,525 Our guest in this episode is Paul Meredith. 4 00:00:16,065 --> 00:00:17,765 He's professor of materials 5 00:00:18,144 --> 00:00:19,844 science and director 6 00:00:20,144 --> 00:00:22,164 of the Centre for Integrative 7 00:00:22,785 --> 00:00:23,285 Semiconductor 8 00:00:23,824 --> 00:00:24,324 Materials 9 00:00:24,785 --> 00:00:25,684 at The UK's 10 00:00:26,190 --> 00:00:27,410 Swansea University. 11 00:00:28,269 --> 00:00:30,130 In a wide ranging conversation 12 00:00:30,510 --> 00:00:32,609 with Physics World's Matin Durrani, 13 00:00:33,070 --> 00:00:35,969 Meredith talks about the importance of semiconductors 14 00:00:36,670 --> 00:00:37,490 to a successful 15 00:00:38,204 --> 00:00:39,344 high-tech economy. 16 00:00:39,884 --> 00:00:42,204 And he also talks about the role that 17 00:00:42,204 --> 00:00:45,664 his center plays in supporting a manufacturing 18 00:00:46,364 --> 00:00:46,864 ecosystem 19 00:00:47,325 --> 00:00:51,424 that provides highly skilled jobs and attracts inward 20 00:00:51,484 --> 00:00:51,984 investment. 21 00:00:52,750 --> 00:00:54,049 Here's that conversation. 22 00:01:02,750 --> 00:01:04,909 So I'm delighted to be joined today by 23 00:01:04,909 --> 00:01:07,454 Paul Meredith, who's from the University of Swansea. 24 00:01:07,694 --> 00:01:09,234 Hello, Paul. Welcome to the podcast. 25 00:01:09,855 --> 00:01:11,395 Oh, hi, my team. Good to see you. 26 00:01:11,935 --> 00:01:13,614 Of course, we knew each other back in 27 00:01:13,614 --> 00:01:15,694 the nineteen nineties. You and me were back 28 00:01:15,694 --> 00:01:18,034 at the, University of Cambridge, the Cavendish. 29 00:01:19,719 --> 00:01:21,159 What did what were you doing there? You 30 00:01:21,159 --> 00:01:22,619 were a post doc there, weren't you? 31 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:24,859 I was yeah. I was a a DTI 32 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,560 post doctoral fellow in polymer colloids with with 33 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,899 you and Sam and and Athena Donald. 34 00:01:30,519 --> 00:01:32,859 And then after you left the Cavendish, you 35 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,025 went off to industry, didn't you? You had 36 00:01:35,025 --> 00:01:37,204 a few years at Procter and Gamble. 37 00:01:37,825 --> 00:01:40,305 Yeah. That's right. I was 1995, 38 00:01:40,305 --> 00:01:41,744 I think. That's right. I I left the 39 00:01:41,744 --> 00:01:42,244 Cavendish, 40 00:01:43,104 --> 00:01:45,584 joined joined Procter and Gamble as a product 41 00:01:45,584 --> 00:01:47,984 development scientist. I was basically, I think, the 42 00:01:47,984 --> 00:01:50,420 the rogue physicist in the in the department. 43 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:51,840 It was good fun. I was I was 44 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:53,680 with Procter for for six years in, 45 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:55,140 the 46 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:56,980 technical center in Agam. 47 00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:59,600 And then after that, of course, you know, 48 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,520 you went off to Australia. And do you 49 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,200 wanna tell us about the career that you 50 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:04,864 had there? You were there for over a 51 00:02:04,864 --> 00:02:06,965 decade and a half, I think, in Queensland. 52 00:02:08,384 --> 00:02:09,284 Yeah. I was. 53 00:02:10,064 --> 00:02:11,125 University of Queensland, 54 00:02:12,305 --> 00:02:14,085 in Brisbane. Beautiful university. 55 00:02:14,865 --> 00:02:17,264 It was quite an unknown back order, I 56 00:02:17,264 --> 00:02:19,430 must say, at that time, 02/2001 57 00:02:19,430 --> 00:02:21,669 that was. We went over in January, February 58 00:02:21,669 --> 00:02:22,889 '2 thousand and '1. And, 59 00:02:24,949 --> 00:02:26,710 they they had an idea of of starting 60 00:02:26,710 --> 00:02:28,330 up a materials physics effort, 61 00:02:28,629 --> 00:02:30,469 in their physics department there. So I was 62 00:02:30,469 --> 00:02:32,330 a young lecturer. My wife and I had 63 00:02:32,389 --> 00:02:34,534 gone on on honeymoon to Australia the year 64 00:02:34,534 --> 00:02:35,814 before, and we'd sort of fallen in love 65 00:02:35,814 --> 00:02:37,594 with it really, as you do. 66 00:02:38,055 --> 00:02:40,055 So I started up at, started up at 67 00:02:40,055 --> 00:02:41,895 Queensland there in 02/2001. 68 00:02:42,615 --> 00:02:44,455 Not much to start with, to be honest. 69 00:02:44,775 --> 00:02:47,129 An empty desk, an empty office, an empty 70 00:02:47,129 --> 00:02:49,770 whiteboard, and no lab. So it really start 71 00:02:49,770 --> 00:02:51,870 from my thing. And, we were there for 72 00:02:52,090 --> 00:02:53,150 seventeen years 73 00:02:53,689 --> 00:02:55,550 and until till 2017 74 00:02:56,250 --> 00:02:58,889 and really gradually there built up an effort 75 00:02:58,889 --> 00:03:01,415 in what I now call sort of sustainable 76 00:03:01,474 --> 00:03:02,675 advanced materials that is, 77 00:03:03,715 --> 00:03:06,995 semiconductor, dielectric, metal, functional materials where where you 78 00:03:06,995 --> 00:03:09,314 were thinking about the embodied energy in the 79 00:03:09,314 --> 00:03:12,275 in the material system itself and started working 80 00:03:12,275 --> 00:03:14,135 with things like molecular semiconductors. 81 00:03:15,189 --> 00:03:15,689 And, 82 00:03:16,550 --> 00:03:18,569 that that grew into quite a large effort. 83 00:03:19,750 --> 00:03:20,969 A lot of work around bioelectronics 84 00:03:21,270 --> 00:03:22,949 at the time, which really wasn't a word 85 00:03:22,949 --> 00:03:25,430 that was was in nomenclature, but but really 86 00:03:25,430 --> 00:03:28,229 thinking about how we interface advanced materials with 87 00:03:28,229 --> 00:03:30,495 biological systems, and that's become, 88 00:03:31,275 --> 00:03:32,814 quite a big deal now in the pharmaceutical 89 00:03:33,034 --> 00:03:35,055 industry. And you hear words like electroceuticals 90 00:03:35,435 --> 00:03:37,594 from from Smith and Glynn, etcetera. So, yeah, 91 00:03:37,594 --> 00:03:39,055 lovely lovely time in Brisbane. 92 00:03:39,514 --> 00:03:42,474 And, also got very interested at that time 93 00:03:42,474 --> 00:03:42,974 in, 94 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:44,540 in renewable energy. 95 00:03:45,159 --> 00:03:48,120 The the climate change realization was beginning to 96 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:48,620 happen, 97 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,080 and Australia was at the forefront of of 98 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:52,599 thinking about that problem. And, 99 00:03:53,319 --> 00:03:55,879 I got into building large scale solar plants, 100 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,474 which is something a bit strange for a 101 00:03:58,615 --> 00:04:00,534 physicist, a cosmet physicist, but, 102 00:04:01,495 --> 00:04:03,254 we were the first university in the world 103 00:04:03,254 --> 00:04:06,215 to build really big, large megawatt scale plant 104 00:04:06,215 --> 00:04:07,034 on our campuses. 105 00:04:08,055 --> 00:04:09,435 And that grew into 106 00:04:09,814 --> 00:04:10,314 eventually 107 00:04:10,620 --> 00:04:13,180 the university becoming the first one hundred percent 108 00:04:13,180 --> 00:04:15,419 renewable university in the world when they made 109 00:04:15,419 --> 00:04:17,100 a big investment in a big solar farm 110 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:18,699 in 2019, I think it was. But the 111 00:04:18,699 --> 00:04:20,000 genesis of that was, 112 00:04:20,620 --> 00:04:23,100 was was us building these, these arrays on 113 00:04:23,100 --> 00:04:25,814 on-site. So a very diverse time in Australia, 114 00:04:26,354 --> 00:04:26,754 and, 115 00:04:27,314 --> 00:04:27,875 it was, 116 00:04:28,995 --> 00:04:30,854 a very productive time for us as well. 117 00:04:31,314 --> 00:04:32,594 So it sounds like you really had a, 118 00:04:32,594 --> 00:04:34,834 you know, very successful career there. Australia must 119 00:04:34,834 --> 00:04:37,394 have been, you know, a wonderful place to 120 00:04:37,394 --> 00:04:37,894 be. 121 00:04:38,310 --> 00:04:39,589 And then you came back to The UK 122 00:04:39,589 --> 00:04:41,589 to Swansea. So there must have been, what 123 00:04:41,589 --> 00:04:43,589 what made you come back back home? Because 124 00:04:43,589 --> 00:04:45,830 you are originally from South Wales. I I 125 00:04:45,830 --> 00:04:48,389 am. Yeah. I'm in my office at Singleton 126 00:04:48,389 --> 00:04:50,230 here, and I can nearly see the hospital 127 00:04:50,230 --> 00:04:53,025 I was born from. So, I'm I'm Swansea 128 00:04:53,025 --> 00:04:54,384 born and bred. I was I was brought 129 00:04:54,384 --> 00:04:55,685 up on the edge of the Gower 130 00:04:55,985 --> 00:04:58,145 Peninsula, which everybody knows, a little village called 131 00:04:58,145 --> 00:04:58,645 Wannowlife. 132 00:04:59,425 --> 00:04:59,925 And, 133 00:05:00,944 --> 00:05:03,025 left here in 1989 134 00:05:03,025 --> 00:05:03,845 after qualifying, 135 00:05:04,145 --> 00:05:05,985 with a degree in physics from this university, 136 00:05:05,985 --> 00:05:08,150 from this department, and never really thinking that 137 00:05:08,150 --> 00:05:09,290 I'd be back. But, 138 00:05:09,830 --> 00:05:10,949 in 02/2016, 139 00:05:10,949 --> 00:05:13,110 '2 thousand '17, we we made the personal 140 00:05:13,110 --> 00:05:14,470 decision to come to come back as a 141 00:05:14,470 --> 00:05:15,850 family to The United Kingdom. 142 00:05:16,389 --> 00:05:16,889 And, 143 00:05:17,509 --> 00:05:18,889 it was sort of natural 144 00:05:19,324 --> 00:05:19,824 that, 145 00:05:20,685 --> 00:05:22,845 that, you know, I I come and take 146 00:05:22,845 --> 00:05:25,004 a look at Swansea and friends and family 147 00:05:25,004 --> 00:05:27,584 still here. And at the time, Swansea was 148 00:05:27,964 --> 00:05:31,324 essentially trying to expand its physics offering and 149 00:05:31,324 --> 00:05:33,665 and really was looking for some advanced materials 150 00:05:33,725 --> 00:05:34,225 activity, 151 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,279 and that fitted us. And I was fortunate 152 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:38,339 enough to be awarded 153 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,040 a national research chair from the Circumbria Programme. 154 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:42,879 At the time, the Welsh government was expanding 155 00:05:42,879 --> 00:05:43,860 its science base. 156 00:05:44,319 --> 00:05:46,959 And so, we decided this would be the 157 00:05:46,959 --> 00:05:49,759 right move. And, we moved part of our 158 00:05:49,759 --> 00:05:52,154 group from from University of Queensland in Brisbane 159 00:05:52,455 --> 00:05:55,014 here. I brought three of our our best 160 00:05:55,014 --> 00:05:57,254 and brightest with us to South Wales, bit 161 00:05:57,254 --> 00:05:58,634 of a culture shock for them. 162 00:05:59,014 --> 00:06:01,995 And, we started again, again from nothing, 163 00:06:03,014 --> 00:06:05,115 which seems to be a theme, and 164 00:06:06,689 --> 00:06:08,210 created over the next sort of three or 165 00:06:08,210 --> 00:06:09,670 four years even during COVID, 166 00:06:10,610 --> 00:06:13,009 a fairly substantial effort in what we were 167 00:06:13,009 --> 00:06:15,970 then and are calling sustainable advanced materials as 168 00:06:15,970 --> 00:06:16,550 a thing. 169 00:06:17,090 --> 00:06:18,944 So that's why we we came back really. 170 00:06:19,504 --> 00:06:20,625 So the reason we got you on the 171 00:06:20,625 --> 00:06:21,985 podcast, Paul, is I came down to see 172 00:06:21,985 --> 00:06:24,145 you a couple of weeks ago to, the 173 00:06:24,145 --> 00:06:26,245 Center for Integrative Semiconductor 174 00:06:26,545 --> 00:06:27,045 Materials, 175 00:06:28,145 --> 00:06:30,464 which looks an amazing place when I came 176 00:06:30,464 --> 00:06:32,310 around. I was very impressed by it. So 177 00:06:32,389 --> 00:06:34,389 do you wanna explain what that what that 178 00:06:34,389 --> 00:06:36,069 place does and, what what are the aims 179 00:06:36,069 --> 00:06:37,669 of it so people who don't know about 180 00:06:37,669 --> 00:06:38,169 it? 181 00:06:38,790 --> 00:06:39,290 Well, 182 00:06:40,470 --> 00:06:40,970 it's, 183 00:06:41,829 --> 00:06:43,430 you know, it's a it's a brand brand 184 00:06:43,430 --> 00:06:45,029 new facility that you saw. And thanks for 185 00:06:45,029 --> 00:06:46,665 coming down. We really enjoyed having you. 186 00:06:48,105 --> 00:06:49,645 And it is a response. 187 00:06:50,024 --> 00:06:51,165 And it's a response 188 00:06:51,785 --> 00:06:53,725 of, I guess our university 189 00:06:54,185 --> 00:06:54,925 to the, 190 00:06:56,824 --> 00:06:58,285 to the core to support 191 00:06:58,745 --> 00:07:01,384 the rapid growth of the semiconductor manufacturing industry 192 00:07:01,384 --> 00:07:02,285 in South Wales. 193 00:07:02,959 --> 00:07:04,979 Not a lot of people know this, but, 194 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,399 kind of Silicon Valley is is springing up 195 00:07:08,399 --> 00:07:10,660 along the M 4 Corridor, so to speak, 196 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,539 particularly focused on the manufacturing of advanced semiconductor 197 00:07:13,839 --> 00:07:16,365 systems, particularly compound and wide gap 198 00:07:16,764 --> 00:07:19,324 systems, not really the the the traditional silicon 199 00:07:19,324 --> 00:07:20,305 world of processors 200 00:07:20,685 --> 00:07:22,384 that's owned by Intel and TSMC, 201 00:07:23,004 --> 00:07:25,264 but very high end advanced 202 00:07:25,644 --> 00:07:28,144 semiconductor technology along the M 4 Corridor. 203 00:07:29,129 --> 00:07:32,589 We've got companies like, KLA, large American 204 00:07:32,889 --> 00:07:34,350 tool and metrology manufacturer. 205 00:07:35,930 --> 00:07:38,730 Power semiconductor company Vishay have just moved into 206 00:07:38,730 --> 00:07:40,410 the region and bought one of the big 207 00:07:40,410 --> 00:07:42,350 manufacturing facilities up near Newport. 208 00:07:43,305 --> 00:07:45,004 Leader in in global epitaxy, 209 00:07:45,704 --> 00:07:46,204 IQE. 210 00:07:46,664 --> 00:07:48,504 And then all of the supply chains around 211 00:07:48,504 --> 00:07:51,305 that, including packaging companies like Microchip. So it's 212 00:07:51,305 --> 00:07:52,904 it's a really exciting time in South Wales. 213 00:07:52,904 --> 00:07:54,745 And this is beginning to happen around about 214 00:07:54,745 --> 00:07:58,230 2017, '20 '18, big time, big investments being 215 00:07:58,230 --> 00:07:59,129 made. And so, 216 00:07:59,990 --> 00:08:01,670 you know, we we saw that as a 217 00:08:01,670 --> 00:08:05,050 university, we needed to help feed that ecosystem. 218 00:08:05,110 --> 00:08:07,210 And so came up with this concept of 219 00:08:07,430 --> 00:08:10,155 of building a kind of a research development 220 00:08:10,215 --> 00:08:13,355 innovation and pilot and translational facility 221 00:08:14,134 --> 00:08:16,314 to support that semiconductor ecosystem, 222 00:08:17,175 --> 00:08:19,814 particularly focusing on the technology areas that were 223 00:08:19,814 --> 00:08:21,275 of relevance to those companies. 224 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,520 And it turns out that, 225 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,879 power electronics and wide band gap, high efficiency 226 00:08:26,879 --> 00:08:28,720 power electronics is is high on the agenda 227 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:29,379 down here 228 00:08:29,759 --> 00:08:31,379 as is high end optoelectronics. 229 00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:34,285 If you have a smart phone, it's very 230 00:08:34,285 --> 00:08:36,285 likely that you have a vertical cavity service 231 00:08:36,285 --> 00:08:38,285 emitting laser in it that was grown in 232 00:08:38,285 --> 00:08:40,465 in South Wales and was patent elsewhere. 233 00:08:41,325 --> 00:08:43,325 So looking at what was really the core 234 00:08:43,325 --> 00:08:45,804 of of what those industries needed. And then, 235 00:08:45,804 --> 00:08:46,440 of course, 236 00:08:47,399 --> 00:08:49,000 you know, to do that, you've got to 237 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,639 build something which is not just relevant for 238 00:08:51,639 --> 00:08:53,960 doing one of a kind research and development 239 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,980 that universities in Britain do very well, 240 00:08:56,759 --> 00:08:59,419 but also is capable then of taking semiconductor 241 00:08:59,639 --> 00:09:01,340 technology and scaling it. 242 00:09:01,955 --> 00:09:04,835 So the CISM, standing for Centre for Integrated 243 00:09:04,835 --> 00:09:07,174 Semiconductor Materials, like you said, the word integrative 244 00:09:07,235 --> 00:09:08,054 is very important. 245 00:09:08,835 --> 00:09:11,554 Our focus is on the development of support 246 00:09:11,554 --> 00:09:13,975 of technology to a cross semiconductor platform. 247 00:09:15,309 --> 00:09:17,309 You know, and, and that's really where, 248 00:09:17,710 --> 00:09:19,790 I think we have a, a really interesting 249 00:09:19,790 --> 00:09:22,509 new competitive advantage in The UK semiconductor industry. 250 00:09:22,509 --> 00:09:25,410 So these concepts around heterogeneous integration of semiconductor 251 00:09:25,629 --> 00:09:26,129 platforms. 252 00:09:26,670 --> 00:09:28,050 So CISM basically 253 00:09:28,750 --> 00:09:31,115 is, an RD and I facility, but it's 254 00:09:31,115 --> 00:09:33,034 it's built and designed in the principles of 255 00:09:33,034 --> 00:09:35,995 a semiconductor manufacturing plant. We call these things 256 00:09:35,995 --> 00:09:36,495 fabs, 257 00:09:37,115 --> 00:09:40,075 in in the semiconductor vernacular. That means clean 258 00:09:40,075 --> 00:09:43,034 fabrication environment. So the word fab is is 259 00:09:43,034 --> 00:09:45,889 our slang for that. So it's basically a 260 00:09:45,889 --> 00:09:47,029 mini me fab, 261 00:09:47,730 --> 00:09:50,529 of the type that, you know, Infineon or 262 00:09:50,529 --> 00:09:52,690 any other big semiconductor company would build. And 263 00:09:52,690 --> 00:09:55,110 in fact, it's designed on very similar principles. 264 00:09:55,649 --> 00:09:58,070 So, it's designed to have higher time 265 00:09:58,795 --> 00:10:00,955 potential for twenty four seven, three 60 five 266 00:10:00,955 --> 00:10:03,434 operation and the potential not just to be 267 00:10:03,434 --> 00:10:05,215 able to make one device once, 268 00:10:05,675 --> 00:10:07,754 but to be able to process tens or 269 00:10:07,754 --> 00:10:08,815 hundreds of wafers 270 00:10:09,195 --> 00:10:11,434 to scale a process and to demonstrate that 271 00:10:11,434 --> 00:10:13,535 a particular technology is is viable. 272 00:10:14,154 --> 00:10:16,230 So, anyway, we started building that in 273 00:10:16,850 --> 00:10:17,750 2020, 274 00:10:18,370 --> 00:10:20,289 right in the guts of COVID, actually. The 275 00:10:20,289 --> 00:10:22,409 summer of COVID was when we came out 276 00:10:22,409 --> 00:10:23,190 of the ground. 277 00:10:23,649 --> 00:10:24,149 And 278 00:10:24,690 --> 00:10:26,289 this year, 2025, 279 00:10:26,289 --> 00:10:29,355 we'll see our first full operational year. So 280 00:10:29,355 --> 00:10:30,955 you you saw you saw the fab a 281 00:10:30,955 --> 00:10:32,014 couple of weeks ago. 282 00:10:32,554 --> 00:10:33,595 It was pretty full. 283 00:10:34,154 --> 00:10:35,595 There was a lot of people working in 284 00:10:35,595 --> 00:10:37,754 there. Particularly, we were running a training course 285 00:10:37,754 --> 00:10:39,294 that we'll talk about in a second. 286 00:10:40,309 --> 00:10:41,450 So all in all, 287 00:10:41,910 --> 00:10:44,809 it's a modern research and development and innovation 288 00:10:44,950 --> 00:10:47,269 facility that's designed to be a a pilot 289 00:10:47,269 --> 00:10:50,169 translation facility for the for The UK semiconductor 290 00:10:50,230 --> 00:10:52,070 industry. And, of course, that's very pertinent at 291 00:10:52,070 --> 00:10:54,735 the moment as, as as we're in the 292 00:10:54,735 --> 00:10:56,415 in the middle of designing a new national 293 00:10:56,415 --> 00:10:59,794 strategy for semiconductor manufacturing and semiconductors that frontier 294 00:11:00,254 --> 00:11:03,615 of many things, artificial intelligence, quantum technology, the 295 00:11:03,615 --> 00:11:06,575 clean energy revolution, net zero, electrification of cars, 296 00:11:06,575 --> 00:11:08,909 you name it. It's advanced semiconductors that are 297 00:11:08,909 --> 00:11:10,829 gonna that are gonna enable all of that. 298 00:11:10,829 --> 00:11:12,929 So that's the context of of CISM anyway. 299 00:11:13,230 --> 00:11:14,669 So when I came around, Paul, I saw 300 00:11:14,669 --> 00:11:16,769 some you showed me some pretty cool facilities 301 00:11:16,829 --> 00:11:17,629 there. Do you wanna, 302 00:11:18,350 --> 00:11:19,789 tell us about some of the ones that 303 00:11:19,789 --> 00:11:22,184 you're particularly proud of at the at the 304 00:11:22,184 --> 00:11:23,565 at the, the center? 305 00:11:24,345 --> 00:11:25,725 Yeah. So it's 306 00:11:26,105 --> 00:11:28,184 the the heart of the facility is is 307 00:11:28,184 --> 00:11:29,804 a is a big clean room. 308 00:11:30,264 --> 00:11:32,524 And the clean room itself is a thousand 309 00:11:32,585 --> 00:11:33,485 meters squared, 310 00:11:33,865 --> 00:11:35,870 which is quite a large cleanroom for a 311 00:11:35,870 --> 00:11:37,009 university to build. 312 00:11:37,629 --> 00:11:38,129 And, 313 00:11:38,669 --> 00:11:40,990 on the cleanroom floor, as we call it, 314 00:11:40,990 --> 00:11:44,110 there are semiconductor processing tools. There are tools 315 00:11:44,110 --> 00:11:44,610 that 316 00:11:44,910 --> 00:11:48,370 deposit atom by atom semiconductors, dielectrics, and metals 317 00:11:48,625 --> 00:11:50,725 that build up the layers of a semiconductor 318 00:11:50,785 --> 00:11:51,285 device. 319 00:11:51,745 --> 00:11:53,985 There are tools that etch away to create 320 00:11:53,985 --> 00:11:57,045 three-dimensional structures, atom by atom. We we specialize 321 00:11:57,105 --> 00:11:59,745 in in so called dry etching with gas 322 00:11:59,745 --> 00:12:00,245 chemistry. 323 00:12:01,059 --> 00:12:03,299 Traditional etching and semiconductors has has been done 324 00:12:03,299 --> 00:12:05,559 with liquids like hydrofluoric acid, etcetera. 325 00:12:06,259 --> 00:12:06,759 So, 326 00:12:07,379 --> 00:12:09,860 etching equipment of of which is state of 327 00:12:09,860 --> 00:12:12,579 the art, and then the patterning equipment to 328 00:12:12,579 --> 00:12:14,500 set down the patterns of the semiconductor tech 329 00:12:14,579 --> 00:12:16,945 devices, the lithography, the so called lithography 330 00:12:17,485 --> 00:12:20,044 as well. So areas for lithography, deposition, and 331 00:12:20,044 --> 00:12:20,544 etch, 332 00:12:21,324 --> 00:12:22,704 and, and also, 333 00:12:23,324 --> 00:12:24,945 some pretty bespoke equipment, 334 00:12:25,324 --> 00:12:27,485 which is sort of, I suppose, tuned to 335 00:12:27,485 --> 00:12:27,985 what, 336 00:12:28,684 --> 00:12:31,110 to what our industry partners are interested in. 337 00:12:31,190 --> 00:12:32,889 So we hold, for example, 338 00:12:33,829 --> 00:12:37,429 The UK's national pilot line for producing silicon 339 00:12:37,429 --> 00:12:39,209 carbide power electronic components. 340 00:12:39,750 --> 00:12:42,149 That's funded by something called Driving the Electric 341 00:12:42,149 --> 00:12:42,649 Revolution, 342 00:12:44,205 --> 00:12:47,085 under the industry challenge industry strategy challenge fund 343 00:12:47,085 --> 00:12:47,985 of the last government. 344 00:12:48,605 --> 00:12:50,605 And we also hold a really nice new 345 00:12:50,605 --> 00:12:53,585 facility for for the epitaxial deposition 346 00:12:53,965 --> 00:12:56,465 of gallium oxide and other wide gap oxides. 347 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,580 It's a metal organic CVD reactor, 348 00:13:00,279 --> 00:13:01,740 and that's the EPSRC 349 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,240 national facility for producing gallium oxide. And we've 350 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:06,919 just commissioned it. So we've just got the 351 00:13:06,919 --> 00:13:08,059 first gallium oxide 352 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:10,200 epitaxy out of it in the last couple 353 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:11,480 of weeks. So it's, it's been a pretty 354 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,335 exciting couple of weeks for us. So that's 355 00:13:13,335 --> 00:13:14,695 some of the things that we're pretty proud 356 00:13:14,695 --> 00:13:15,195 of. 357 00:13:15,975 --> 00:13:19,434 Also quite self sufficient for characterization and analysis. 358 00:13:19,575 --> 00:13:21,815 It's it's very important, obviously, that you understand 359 00:13:21,815 --> 00:13:23,355 what you're growing, what you're etching, 360 00:13:23,815 --> 00:13:25,115 etcetera. And so 361 00:13:25,575 --> 00:13:27,420 a a a large suite of of characterization 362 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,460 equipment including very, very high end electron microscopy 363 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:31,500 scanning probe, 364 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:32,540 for example. 365 00:13:33,879 --> 00:13:35,080 And the great thing is when I came 366 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,000 down, Paul, you showed me, well, we talked 367 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:38,519 to some of the students who had come 368 00:13:38,519 --> 00:13:40,845 down from across The UK to learn about 369 00:13:40,845 --> 00:13:42,684 some of the techniques of particularly how to 370 00:13:42,684 --> 00:13:45,485 make semiconductors and scale them. And but that's 371 00:13:45,485 --> 00:13:47,004 one of the real things about the center, 372 00:13:47,004 --> 00:13:49,485 isn't it? To get, training for students in 373 00:13:49,485 --> 00:13:51,585 the art of doing some of this work. 374 00:13:51,884 --> 00:13:53,279 Yeah. I'm glad you used the word art 375 00:13:53,279 --> 00:13:55,440 because it it sort of hovers sometimes between 376 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,139 art, science, technology, and engineering. 377 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,200 And there is there's a skill shortage in 378 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,759 the semiconductor industry across the globe, not just 379 00:14:03,759 --> 00:14:05,360 in The United Kingdom, but particularly in The 380 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,704 United Kingdom. And as I said, we've we've 381 00:14:07,704 --> 00:14:08,204 got, 382 00:14:09,225 --> 00:14:11,144 we've got companies that are growing rapidly in 383 00:14:11,144 --> 00:14:12,284 the region, and, 384 00:14:13,144 --> 00:14:14,444 they need us to train, 385 00:14:14,745 --> 00:14:16,125 and they need us to train 386 00:14:16,664 --> 00:14:19,064 students at all level, actually, the technical levels 387 00:14:19,064 --> 00:14:21,304 all the way from apprentice through to, you 388 00:14:21,304 --> 00:14:23,000 know, very specialist PhDs. 389 00:14:23,940 --> 00:14:26,120 And they need to be trained on equipment 390 00:14:26,259 --> 00:14:27,480 and on processes 391 00:14:27,940 --> 00:14:28,679 that are relevant 392 00:14:29,139 --> 00:14:31,559 to those being used in the manufacturing scenario. 393 00:14:31,620 --> 00:14:35,059 So we've really taken a strategic decision to 394 00:14:35,059 --> 00:14:37,000 to have that as the core of our 395 00:14:37,144 --> 00:14:39,625 of our training strategy, if you like. It's 396 00:14:39,625 --> 00:14:42,345 relevant practical training on tools that they're going 397 00:14:42,345 --> 00:14:43,004 to use 398 00:14:43,384 --> 00:14:45,725 immediately if they go into the industrial environment. 399 00:14:46,345 --> 00:14:47,004 And so, 400 00:14:48,024 --> 00:14:51,179 together with partners in University Leeds and Cambridge 401 00:14:51,179 --> 00:14:53,580 University and the Rice Institute, the the Henry 402 00:14:53,580 --> 00:14:54,240 Rice Institute, 403 00:14:55,179 --> 00:14:56,800 we put together a training course 404 00:14:57,340 --> 00:14:58,160 five days. 405 00:14:58,940 --> 00:15:01,580 And it's really about teaching all the practical 406 00:15:01,580 --> 00:15:03,040 skills from woah to go, 407 00:15:03,580 --> 00:15:05,420 that some would need to operate in a 408 00:15:05,420 --> 00:15:06,160 clean room. 409 00:15:06,914 --> 00:15:08,054 And in fact, the students, 410 00:15:09,154 --> 00:15:11,634 make throughout the period of a week, Monday 411 00:15:11,634 --> 00:15:12,294 to Friday, 412 00:15:12,914 --> 00:15:13,654 they make 413 00:15:14,274 --> 00:15:16,514 working devices. In this case, we made high 414 00:15:16,514 --> 00:15:20,274 electron mobility transistors from epitaxial gallium nitride from 415 00:15:20,274 --> 00:15:22,460 two DEG gallium nitride that was grown for 416 00:15:22,460 --> 00:15:24,399 us at Cambridge by a colleague Dave Ritchie. 417 00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:27,100 And so all of the all of the 418 00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:29,500 students made working transistors by the end of 419 00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:30,559 end of the Friday. 420 00:15:31,100 --> 00:15:32,620 You were fortunate enough to see them on 421 00:15:32,620 --> 00:15:34,995 the Friday giving their talks and presenting their 422 00:15:34,995 --> 00:15:36,674 results, and and we gave a a prize 423 00:15:36,674 --> 00:15:38,754 for the best off on off ratio, which 424 00:15:38,754 --> 00:15:40,274 was 10 to the five, pretty good for 425 00:15:40,274 --> 00:15:41,975 a a hemp transistor, I'd say. 426 00:15:42,835 --> 00:15:45,315 So that's been something, of course, has been 427 00:15:45,315 --> 00:15:47,254 evolving over a period of three years. 428 00:15:47,879 --> 00:15:49,639 Started it at Leeds. We ran it at 429 00:15:49,639 --> 00:15:51,240 the Bragg Clean Room in Leeds for two 430 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:52,759 years, the previous two years, and it was 431 00:15:52,759 --> 00:15:55,320 our turn. And it was a big deal 432 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:56,139 for us because 433 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,920 the course tested all of the elements of 434 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,215 the fab for the first time. And so, 435 00:16:01,434 --> 00:16:03,674 very hard work for everybody preparing for it 436 00:16:03,674 --> 00:16:05,034 and then delivering it over the week, but 437 00:16:05,034 --> 00:16:06,955 we're very proud of the fact that we 438 00:16:06,955 --> 00:16:09,274 managed it. 20 students were put through the 439 00:16:09,274 --> 00:16:11,855 course, four industrial engineers, 16 from 440 00:16:12,154 --> 00:16:13,695 universities all around The UK. 441 00:16:14,410 --> 00:16:15,790 We had students from Cambridge, 442 00:16:16,169 --> 00:16:16,669 Manchester, 443 00:16:17,210 --> 00:16:18,269 Sheffield, Liverpool, 444 00:16:19,290 --> 00:16:20,990 Leeds, of course, our students, 445 00:16:21,370 --> 00:16:24,169 from Swansea. So great success. And the other 446 00:16:24,169 --> 00:16:26,590 nice thing was if you sort of map 447 00:16:26,764 --> 00:16:29,264 the disciplines of those students, they were from 448 00:16:29,325 --> 00:16:31,245 not just physics, but they were from electrical 449 00:16:31,245 --> 00:16:32,865 engineering, mechanical engineering, 450 00:16:33,325 --> 00:16:36,605 chemistry, chemical process engineering. The whole thing about 451 00:16:36,605 --> 00:16:38,865 the semiconductor sector is it it requires 452 00:16:39,245 --> 00:16:40,625 a broad range of multidisciplinary 453 00:16:41,085 --> 00:16:43,639 skills. So, yeah, very pleased about that. And 454 00:16:43,639 --> 00:16:44,840 as I say, we were lucky to have 455 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:46,120 you down on the Friday to see the 456 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:47,320 outcome of that, and you were able to 457 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:48,840 talk to some of the students. And I 458 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:50,519 think some of them were quite complimentary about 459 00:16:50,519 --> 00:16:52,840 their experience. The feedback has certainly been brilliant 460 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:54,704 on it. But one of the things you 461 00:16:54,704 --> 00:16:56,464 really impressed me on with when I was 462 00:16:56,464 --> 00:16:58,784 there, Paul, was just how important the center 463 00:16:58,784 --> 00:17:00,964 is for the South Wales economy. 464 00:17:01,904 --> 00:17:03,184 And you showed me that map when we 465 00:17:03,184 --> 00:17:05,345 were sitting in the office of it was 466 00:17:05,345 --> 00:17:07,650 a map of South Wales and little lights 467 00:17:07,809 --> 00:17:10,690 flashed to indicate local businesses in this area. 468 00:17:10,690 --> 00:17:13,009 And there's a huge cluster of companies, and 469 00:17:13,009 --> 00:17:14,230 it's a really important 470 00:17:14,769 --> 00:17:16,930 effort for that economy, isn't it? And we 471 00:17:16,930 --> 00:17:18,210 also when you pick me up from the 472 00:17:18,210 --> 00:17:20,690 station at, Port Talbot, there's the steel factory 473 00:17:20,690 --> 00:17:21,430 from Tata. 474 00:17:22,085 --> 00:17:24,644 And, you know, that traditionally was the big, 475 00:17:24,644 --> 00:17:26,404 you know, really important employer. So this is 476 00:17:26,565 --> 00:17:28,505 it's transformational, isn't it, the center? 477 00:17:29,365 --> 00:17:30,345 Well, you know, 478 00:17:31,125 --> 00:17:32,904 if every economy goes through 479 00:17:33,285 --> 00:17:36,565 periodic transformations, right, every manufacturing advanced economy, you 480 00:17:36,565 --> 00:17:36,900 know. 481 00:17:37,380 --> 00:17:37,859 And, 482 00:17:38,259 --> 00:17:40,099 down in South Wales, this was, you know, 483 00:17:40,099 --> 00:17:41,160 arguably the place 484 00:17:41,539 --> 00:17:43,700 part of the industrial revolution started with coal 485 00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:45,559 mining and iron ore and copper. 486 00:17:46,099 --> 00:17:47,720 So once it used to be called Copperopolis 487 00:17:47,940 --> 00:17:49,664 in the '17 '18 hundreds. 488 00:17:50,144 --> 00:17:52,065 And, of course, steel and coal are very 489 00:17:52,065 --> 00:17:53,924 important parts of our economy. My 490 00:17:54,225 --> 00:17:55,525 family are all miners. 491 00:17:57,025 --> 00:17:59,744 But, mining is no more, in this part 492 00:17:59,744 --> 00:18:02,484 of the world, and it's, it's really, 493 00:18:02,945 --> 00:18:04,559 it's really interesting to see, 494 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,559 as we see foundational industries on the decline, 495 00:18:08,559 --> 00:18:09,220 the simultaneous 496 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,620 rise of new high-tech industries. 497 00:18:12,559 --> 00:18:15,299 And, you know, call it serendipity, 498 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,779 or or call it a bit of intervention 499 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:18,580 from government. 500 00:18:19,684 --> 00:18:20,984 That's what we're seeing here. 501 00:18:21,285 --> 00:18:21,945 And so, 502 00:18:22,325 --> 00:18:24,585 as we see jobs lost in Port Alberts, 503 00:18:24,805 --> 00:18:26,964 we see the need for retraining those sometimes 504 00:18:26,964 --> 00:18:28,265 very highly skilled people, 505 00:18:28,884 --> 00:18:29,865 into the semiconductor 506 00:18:30,164 --> 00:18:30,664 sector. 507 00:18:31,220 --> 00:18:33,799 And the thing that really characterises our sector 508 00:18:33,940 --> 00:18:36,900 is the very high value add a gross 509 00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:38,440 value add to the local economy. 510 00:18:39,859 --> 00:18:42,019 The calculations from our colleagues up at, the 511 00:18:42,019 --> 00:18:44,740 Welsh Economic Research Unit in Cardiff University that 512 00:18:44,740 --> 00:18:45,315 track this, 513 00:18:46,355 --> 00:18:47,174 reckon that 514 00:18:47,634 --> 00:18:49,634 a job in our cluster, in our in 515 00:18:49,634 --> 00:18:53,154 our semiconductor cluster, contributes roughly three times the 516 00:18:53,154 --> 00:18:55,234 national average gross value add to the local 517 00:18:55,234 --> 00:18:57,154 economy. So each job to us about a 518 00:18:57,154 --> 00:18:58,835 hundred and £50,000 519 00:18:58,835 --> 00:18:59,494 per year 520 00:19:00,259 --> 00:19:02,339 actually delivered back into the economy of South 521 00:19:02,339 --> 00:19:04,339 Wales, and that's very significant. And so it's 522 00:19:04,339 --> 00:19:06,839 a it's a really, really important part of 523 00:19:07,139 --> 00:19:09,960 of the rebirth of of this region. So, 524 00:19:11,059 --> 00:19:13,619 yeah, I think, you know, what we're seeing 525 00:19:13,619 --> 00:19:14,295 here is, 526 00:19:15,414 --> 00:19:16,795 is nationally significant. 527 00:19:17,335 --> 00:19:18,394 I think we're seeing 528 00:19:18,775 --> 00:19:19,515 quite considerable 529 00:19:20,455 --> 00:19:22,075 activity and inward investment. 530 00:19:23,335 --> 00:19:25,894 Companies moving into the region, I mentioned Vishay 531 00:19:25,894 --> 00:19:26,394 Intertechnology, 532 00:19:27,174 --> 00:19:28,855 a couple of minutes ago. Vishay is an 533 00:19:28,855 --> 00:19:29,755 American company 534 00:19:31,230 --> 00:19:33,630 And, they've moved into the region making very 535 00:19:33,630 --> 00:19:34,849 significant investments, 536 00:19:35,390 --> 00:19:35,890 bought, 537 00:19:36,670 --> 00:19:38,910 the eight inch silicon wafer fab up in 538 00:19:38,910 --> 00:19:41,009 Newport that was originally built by Infineon. 539 00:19:42,190 --> 00:19:42,690 Likewise, 540 00:19:43,644 --> 00:19:44,704 KLA Tencor, 541 00:19:46,285 --> 00:19:48,525 purchased a company called SPTS, which was an 542 00:19:48,525 --> 00:19:50,525 indigenous tool making company here, and now we're 543 00:19:50,525 --> 00:19:51,744 expanding. In fact, 544 00:19:52,525 --> 00:19:54,704 they have are just about to complete their 545 00:19:54,845 --> 00:19:57,884 European headquarter build in Newport. So it's not 546 00:19:57,884 --> 00:19:58,384 just 547 00:19:58,839 --> 00:20:01,399 acquiring an asset. It's it's making very, very 548 00:20:01,399 --> 00:20:04,539 substantial inward investments here. At the moment, 549 00:20:04,919 --> 00:20:06,679 our estimates are that there's probably about two 550 00:20:06,679 --> 00:20:08,519 and a half thousand direct jobs in the 551 00:20:08,519 --> 00:20:10,539 region with a multiplier on top of that, 552 00:20:10,705 --> 00:20:12,545 And we could see that tracking out to 553 00:20:12,545 --> 00:20:14,424 over 3,000 jobs now in the next couple 554 00:20:14,424 --> 00:20:15,045 of years, 555 00:20:15,505 --> 00:20:17,424 with the commensurate add of, 556 00:20:17,825 --> 00:20:19,904 of, you know, Iqimaq Valley to the to 557 00:20:19,904 --> 00:20:20,965 the region. So 558 00:20:21,345 --> 00:20:23,765 interesting times, and that has to be underpinned 559 00:20:24,349 --> 00:20:26,190 has to be underpinned then by the sort 560 00:20:26,190 --> 00:20:28,390 of support that we're trying to provide. And 561 00:20:28,390 --> 00:20:31,009 and Cardiff University is trying to provide skills, 562 00:20:31,150 --> 00:20:32,690 people, process support, 563 00:20:33,150 --> 00:20:36,109 a place to develop technology. And the other 564 00:20:36,109 --> 00:20:37,914 thing that I think, you know, has been 565 00:20:37,914 --> 00:20:39,755 exciting for us is is our ability to 566 00:20:39,755 --> 00:20:40,894 incubate companies. 567 00:20:41,595 --> 00:20:43,674 That's been something that's been really difficult in 568 00:20:43,674 --> 00:20:45,775 in the semiconductor sector for decades. 569 00:20:46,154 --> 00:20:48,715 If you're a smart person, smart young PhD 570 00:20:48,715 --> 00:20:50,720 student or something that's got an idea for 571 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:52,799 a semiconductor widget or a new device or 572 00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:53,539 a new process, 573 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,700 you're only gonna be able to prove that, 574 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,019 you know, if you're gonna have access to 575 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,320 equipment in a fab worth tens or hundreds 576 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:01,680 of millions of pounds. So how do you 577 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,759 do that as a as an entrepreneur, especially 578 00:21:03,759 --> 00:21:04,740 as a young entrepreneur? 579 00:21:05,164 --> 00:21:06,684 Well, the answer is you need to find 580 00:21:06,684 --> 00:21:09,325 somebody and somewhere that will will bring you 581 00:21:09,325 --> 00:21:12,464 in, support you, give you access to facilities, 582 00:21:12,765 --> 00:21:15,505 and that's something that we've dialed into this 583 00:21:15,565 --> 00:21:16,944 this new center now. 584 00:21:17,259 --> 00:21:18,079 And in fact, 585 00:21:19,099 --> 00:21:20,700 I can't tell you who, but we will 586 00:21:20,700 --> 00:21:21,179 be, 587 00:21:21,579 --> 00:21:23,759 we will hopefully be having our first incubation 588 00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:26,539 tenant move in to CISM within the next 589 00:21:26,539 --> 00:21:29,200 two months. And it's a local company 590 00:21:29,605 --> 00:21:31,365 that really needs a state of the art 591 00:21:31,365 --> 00:21:33,544 fab to prove what they need to do. 592 00:21:33,605 --> 00:21:35,605 And so, you know, that is at the 593 00:21:35,605 --> 00:21:37,605 heart of how Silicon Valley grew in the 594 00:21:37,605 --> 00:21:40,164 fifties and sixties, for example. And so I 595 00:21:40,164 --> 00:21:41,625 think there's a parallel there. 596 00:21:42,164 --> 00:21:43,859 So you've got quite a success story. I 597 00:21:43,859 --> 00:21:46,119 mean, what what can you do to persuade 598 00:21:46,740 --> 00:21:49,299 other companies and governments to invest further in 599 00:21:49,460 --> 00:21:51,700 into the South Wales area? Because you must 600 00:21:51,700 --> 00:21:53,380 want to attract more, don't you? You know, 601 00:21:53,380 --> 00:21:55,320 you've got a great base to start from. 602 00:21:56,340 --> 00:21:57,875 Yeah. I I think 603 00:21:58,894 --> 00:21:59,555 I think 604 00:22:00,015 --> 00:22:00,515 culturally, 605 00:22:01,295 --> 00:22:02,894 we're down here. We're we're not people who 606 00:22:02,894 --> 00:22:04,434 shout about things too much. Right? 607 00:22:05,934 --> 00:22:07,934 That's fairly typical. But I think we do 608 00:22:07,934 --> 00:22:09,214 need to get out there and we have 609 00:22:09,214 --> 00:22:10,470 been getting out there more. 610 00:22:10,950 --> 00:22:12,089 A lot of what's happened 611 00:22:12,549 --> 00:22:14,950 in the region has been what you might 612 00:22:14,950 --> 00:22:15,450 call, 613 00:22:16,230 --> 00:22:17,289 organic growth. 614 00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:20,409 That is to say companies getting together in 615 00:22:21,269 --> 00:22:24,265 a semi organized self self organized fashion. 616 00:22:24,724 --> 00:22:27,065 In fact, our cluster is called CS connected, 617 00:22:27,365 --> 00:22:29,065 CS for compound semiconductor 618 00:22:29,684 --> 00:22:30,184 connected, 619 00:22:30,804 --> 00:22:31,304 and 620 00:22:31,765 --> 00:22:34,744 that degree of coordination gives you critical mass. 621 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,100 And so with critical mass comes a voice, 622 00:22:38,559 --> 00:22:39,779 with critical mass, 623 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:41,860 comes the, 624 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,100 the attraction for inward investment. 625 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,039 And we've started talking about the cluster done 626 00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:48,640 here in South Wales as being the fifth 627 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,634 semiconductor cluster in Europe, 4 of which are 628 00:22:50,634 --> 00:22:53,134 based on silicon on the continent around Grenoble, 629 00:22:53,434 --> 00:22:54,654 Dresden, for example. 630 00:22:55,434 --> 00:22:57,994 And this is the first compound semiconductor cluster 631 00:22:57,994 --> 00:22:58,654 in Europe, 632 00:22:59,595 --> 00:23:00,095 and, 633 00:23:00,555 --> 00:23:02,634 the fifth overall. So we're starting to talk 634 00:23:02,634 --> 00:23:05,009 in those terms about it now that we 635 00:23:05,009 --> 00:23:07,089 feel that we've got the critical mass, and 636 00:23:07,089 --> 00:23:08,710 that word is getting out there. 637 00:23:10,049 --> 00:23:12,049 You know, sometimes it's it's if I could 638 00:23:12,049 --> 00:23:14,309 be honest, it's a little bit disappointing when 639 00:23:14,369 --> 00:23:17,025 when our leadership and our politicians talk about, 640 00:23:17,184 --> 00:23:18,865 you know, growth in other parts of the 641 00:23:18,865 --> 00:23:19,365 country, 642 00:23:20,384 --> 00:23:22,005 and and fail to appreciate 643 00:23:22,545 --> 00:23:24,785 the, you know, the the the natural growth 644 00:23:24,785 --> 00:23:26,244 that's happening down here. 645 00:23:27,904 --> 00:23:28,404 But, 646 00:23:28,945 --> 00:23:30,880 it's beholding on us now to to to 647 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,480 to be in there, to be talking about 648 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,180 it. That's why I'm coming on your podcast, 649 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,059 and to be a little bit more proactive. 650 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,320 Our industry base is growing. Our industry base 651 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,240 is more influenced as it as it as 652 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,580 it grows and as it makes those investments. 653 00:23:45,734 --> 00:23:47,494 So I'm very hopeful that over the next 654 00:23:47,494 --> 00:23:49,894 couple of years, there'll be people outside South 655 00:23:49,894 --> 00:23:52,055 Wales that appreciate that South Wales is now 656 00:23:52,055 --> 00:23:55,275 the center of The UK semiconductor manufacturing ecosystem. 657 00:23:56,934 --> 00:23:58,340 And one of the really important things that 658 00:23:58,340 --> 00:24:00,100 you mentioned when I visited Paul was the 659 00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:00,900 importance of, 660 00:24:01,940 --> 00:24:02,680 the local 661 00:24:03,220 --> 00:24:05,779 local people knowing that this is a a 662 00:24:05,779 --> 00:24:07,380 career to go into. And you've done a 663 00:24:07,380 --> 00:24:08,840 lot going out into the community, 664 00:24:09,220 --> 00:24:11,539 building awareness of semiconductors as this is a 665 00:24:11,539 --> 00:24:14,065 sort of a definite proper career path that 666 00:24:14,065 --> 00:24:15,684 people can go into all levels. 667 00:24:16,304 --> 00:24:17,585 Do you wanna say a bit about what 668 00:24:17,585 --> 00:24:19,424 you've done? Because it's it's been I found 669 00:24:19,424 --> 00:24:20,804 it fascinating what you did. 670 00:24:21,984 --> 00:24:22,785 Yeah. It's, 671 00:24:24,384 --> 00:24:24,960 you know, 672 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:27,299 often traditionally, 673 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,079 if you've been you've been trained in this 674 00:24:30,079 --> 00:24:31,759 area, you often have to move away to 675 00:24:31,759 --> 00:24:33,359 get the job that, you know, is commensurate 676 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:34,720 with your training. I did. I had to 677 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,259 leave in 1989. 678 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,279 And and people still think that that's the 679 00:24:39,279 --> 00:24:41,105 case, but it's not anymore. 680 00:24:41,644 --> 00:24:43,805 And we've got to get that message out 681 00:24:43,805 --> 00:24:45,805 to youngsters. We've got to get it out 682 00:24:45,805 --> 00:24:46,705 to their parents. 683 00:24:47,484 --> 00:24:48,305 We've got 684 00:24:48,765 --> 00:24:49,505 to sell 685 00:24:50,445 --> 00:24:51,744 the, the case, 686 00:24:52,700 --> 00:24:54,960 for working in our industry in a way 687 00:24:55,180 --> 00:24:57,180 that, you know, the steel industry and the 688 00:24:57,180 --> 00:24:59,660 coal industry has done for a hundred years 689 00:24:59,660 --> 00:25:01,200 in in this part of the world. 690 00:25:01,980 --> 00:25:03,339 So some of the things that we're doing 691 00:25:03,420 --> 00:25:04,859 well, first of all, there's a there's a 692 00:25:04,859 --> 00:25:05,359 coordinated 693 00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:08,305 set of activities and and and, if you 694 00:25:08,305 --> 00:25:10,384 like, a strategy, a regional strategy on this 695 00:25:10,384 --> 00:25:12,065 that that is rolling out across the cluster. 696 00:25:12,065 --> 00:25:13,525 We've got some important projects, 697 00:25:14,545 --> 00:25:16,164 funded from various streams, 698 00:25:16,945 --> 00:25:18,545 by the Welsh and and the UK government 699 00:25:18,545 --> 00:25:20,884 and Cardiff Capital Region City Deal, for example. 700 00:25:21,505 --> 00:25:23,480 But it's about hearts and minds. And, 701 00:25:24,179 --> 00:25:26,440 there's a program, for example, called Start Seni, 702 00:25:27,460 --> 00:25:29,059 which is run by a colleague of mine, 703 00:25:29,059 --> 00:25:31,220 professor Owen Guy, who's the head of chemistry 704 00:25:31,220 --> 00:25:31,720 here. 705 00:25:32,579 --> 00:25:34,039 And Owen has developed, 706 00:25:34,740 --> 00:25:35,480 for example, 707 00:25:36,019 --> 00:25:37,005 a whole set of 708 00:25:37,484 --> 00:25:39,345 virtual reality, augmented reality 709 00:25:39,805 --> 00:25:40,305 materials. 710 00:25:41,404 --> 00:25:43,424 He goes out with headsets into schools. 711 00:25:44,444 --> 00:25:47,184 He puts the kids inside virtual fab environments. 712 00:25:48,444 --> 00:25:50,470 They learn about, you know, 713 00:25:50,769 --> 00:25:53,269 the importance of semiconductors to them, 714 00:25:53,570 --> 00:25:54,470 and to society, 715 00:25:55,009 --> 00:25:57,170 and it becomes something that that they are 716 00:25:57,170 --> 00:25:59,750 familiar with. They understand that inside their smartphone, 717 00:26:00,130 --> 00:26:02,609 you know, or maybe 80 or 90 different 718 00:26:02,609 --> 00:26:03,109 semiconductor 719 00:26:03,410 --> 00:26:04,470 types and components. 720 00:26:05,015 --> 00:26:06,855 They begin to understand these things. And one 721 00:26:06,855 --> 00:26:08,855 really nice thing he did, this is South 722 00:26:08,855 --> 00:26:10,555 Wales, of course, so we love our rugby. 723 00:26:11,495 --> 00:26:11,995 And, 724 00:26:12,455 --> 00:26:14,455 he had a a very nice, very successful 725 00:26:14,455 --> 00:26:16,475 program. I think he reached over 12,000 726 00:26:16,695 --> 00:26:17,434 school children, 727 00:26:18,134 --> 00:26:19,680 of of junior school age, 728 00:26:20,559 --> 00:26:21,539 was to go out, 729 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,140 with, in partnership, the Newport Gwent 730 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,420 franchise, the Dragons franchise rugby franchise in Newport, 731 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,480 you know, and some pretty famous Welsh rugby 732 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,654 players like Jamie Roberts, who was going out 733 00:26:32,654 --> 00:26:33,475 into schools, 734 00:26:33,934 --> 00:26:36,174 you know, on a Wednesday afternoon, for example, 735 00:26:36,174 --> 00:26:37,555 and doing an hour of rugby. 736 00:26:38,414 --> 00:26:41,055 And Owen was managing had has managed to 737 00:26:41,055 --> 00:26:42,975 to partner with that so that that the 738 00:26:42,975 --> 00:26:44,815 children were getting an hour of rugby, and 739 00:26:44,815 --> 00:26:46,015 then they were getting half an hour of 740 00:26:46,015 --> 00:26:46,515 semiconductors 741 00:26:46,815 --> 00:26:48,740 as well. So they were going home telling 742 00:26:48,740 --> 00:26:50,579 their moms and dads that they'd, you know, 743 00:26:50,579 --> 00:26:52,980 played with Jamie Roberts, but also that they'd 744 00:26:52,980 --> 00:26:55,220 learned about these funny thing called semiconductors. So 745 00:26:55,220 --> 00:26:58,039 that's where you start to get inside people 746 00:26:58,419 --> 00:27:01,220 and and get them to, to appreciate and 747 00:27:01,220 --> 00:27:03,835 realize that there's an opportunity for them. And 748 00:27:03,835 --> 00:27:05,595 as more and more of our graduates from 749 00:27:05,595 --> 00:27:08,495 from our technical colleges and and our universities 750 00:27:09,434 --> 00:27:11,295 start to populate that industry, 751 00:27:11,995 --> 00:27:14,795 then it's, it's organic at that point in 752 00:27:14,795 --> 00:27:16,715 time, then word-of-mouth comes into play. It's a 753 00:27:16,715 --> 00:27:17,695 very nice example. 754 00:27:18,279 --> 00:27:20,119 During the nineties when I was trained doing 755 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,119 my PhD up in Heriot Watt in Edinburgh 756 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:22,779 in semiconductors, 757 00:27:24,279 --> 00:27:26,759 there was, there was a phenomena known as 758 00:27:26,759 --> 00:27:27,740 Silicon Glen. 759 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:29,900 Companies like Motorola 760 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,500 had a manufacturing presence between Glasgow and Edinburgh, 761 00:27:34,045 --> 00:27:36,684 and literally thousands of Scots went into that 762 00:27:36,684 --> 00:27:37,184 industry. 763 00:27:38,205 --> 00:27:40,125 And for maybe twenty, twenty five years after 764 00:27:40,125 --> 00:27:41,884 that, everywhere you went in the world in 765 00:27:41,884 --> 00:27:44,525 the semiconductor sector, whether it be Taiwan or 766 00:27:44,525 --> 00:27:47,159 or The US or your, you would hear 767 00:27:47,159 --> 00:27:49,339 a Scottish accent around you. Yeah? 768 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,400 And so, you know, our ambition is that 769 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,159 in the next decade, wherever you go in 770 00:27:53,159 --> 00:27:55,319 the world, you might hear a lilting South 771 00:27:55,319 --> 00:27:57,480 Wales accent coming at you. That would be 772 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,720 our ambition anyway, because that means that we've 773 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,055 we've managed to, you know, train an indigenous 774 00:28:02,115 --> 00:28:02,835 base of, 775 00:28:03,235 --> 00:28:04,295 of of people. 776 00:28:05,394 --> 00:28:06,755 I should add that you're right down near 777 00:28:06,755 --> 00:28:08,995 the, you know, Swansea Bay and the beach. 778 00:28:08,995 --> 00:28:11,075 So that's a great attraction to get students 779 00:28:11,075 --> 00:28:13,649 super particularly sporty to once they've, clocked off 780 00:28:13,649 --> 00:28:15,089 on a Friday, they can head off down 781 00:28:15,089 --> 00:28:16,049 to the beach with their, 782 00:28:16,849 --> 00:28:17,409 for a bit of, 783 00:28:18,130 --> 00:28:20,609 exercise down there. Yeah. The the fab on 784 00:28:20,609 --> 00:28:22,309 the beach we call we call CSM 785 00:28:22,690 --> 00:28:23,169 and, 786 00:28:23,490 --> 00:28:24,549 surfing and semiconductors 787 00:28:24,849 --> 00:28:26,630 and rugby. That's what it's all about. 788 00:28:27,184 --> 00:28:29,424 So looking ahead, final question, Paul. 789 00:28:29,984 --> 00:28:32,144 I guess you're gonna be optimistic about next 790 00:28:32,144 --> 00:28:33,744 steps. What what are the next big plans 791 00:28:33,744 --> 00:28:34,484 for the center? 792 00:28:35,184 --> 00:28:36,005 Okay. Well, 793 00:28:36,464 --> 00:28:37,365 number one, 794 00:28:37,744 --> 00:28:39,845 we we we come to full operational 795 00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:43,210 commissioning. So 100% of the tools working. 796 00:28:44,309 --> 00:28:44,809 Then, 797 00:28:45,509 --> 00:28:47,769 it sounds like small steps, but they're not. 798 00:28:48,309 --> 00:28:50,009 Then increasing capacity, 799 00:28:50,390 --> 00:28:53,589 increasing throughput, and increasing the utilization of the 800 00:28:53,589 --> 00:28:55,365 tools. So increasing the 801 00:28:55,924 --> 00:28:57,845 number of hours of of uptime that we 802 00:28:57,845 --> 00:28:58,345 have 803 00:28:58,644 --> 00:29:01,045 per year, per day, turning it into something 804 00:29:01,045 --> 00:29:03,785 which maybe is capable of running shift patterns 805 00:29:04,164 --> 00:29:06,585 so that we're beginning to utilize the infrastructure. 806 00:29:06,644 --> 00:29:08,105 Universities, with all due respect, 807 00:29:08,950 --> 00:29:10,710 tend to have a large amount of capital 808 00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:13,370 infrastructure that that that's not terribly well utilized, 809 00:29:13,910 --> 00:29:16,170 particularly our high end research infrastructure, 810 00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:18,309 that we can do a better job with. 811 00:29:18,309 --> 00:29:20,070 So that that's kind of on on our 812 00:29:20,070 --> 00:29:20,570 pathway. 813 00:29:21,974 --> 00:29:24,535 Very excited about the incubation opportunity as, say, 814 00:29:24,535 --> 00:29:26,375 our first company coming in this year that 815 00:29:26,375 --> 00:29:27,595 you'll hear more about. 816 00:29:29,015 --> 00:29:29,515 And 817 00:29:30,055 --> 00:29:32,154 and then building from that then 818 00:29:32,615 --> 00:29:33,115 really, 819 00:29:34,055 --> 00:29:38,200 consistent programs of support for KLA and Vishay 820 00:29:38,340 --> 00:29:40,740 and Microchip and IQE and all of the 821 00:29:40,740 --> 00:29:41,960 other companies that 822 00:29:42,660 --> 00:29:44,039 are along the M4 Corridor 823 00:29:44,580 --> 00:29:46,440 and us then being the magnet 824 00:29:47,299 --> 00:29:51,299 for smaller SME based inward investment coming coming 825 00:29:51,299 --> 00:29:53,355 into South Wales. So that's that's kind of 826 00:29:53,355 --> 00:29:54,414 what our trajectory 827 00:29:55,275 --> 00:29:58,154 is. We can't also, you know, go past 828 00:29:58,154 --> 00:29:59,214 the fact that 829 00:30:00,075 --> 00:30:02,734 CSM is also designed to do really frontier 830 00:30:03,355 --> 00:30:05,055 semiconductor research and development. 831 00:30:05,434 --> 00:30:07,755 And so as the fab really begins to 832 00:30:07,755 --> 00:30:08,494 run up, 833 00:30:09,269 --> 00:30:12,150 I wanna see very, very high impact papers 834 00:30:12,150 --> 00:30:14,410 and and technology coming out of the fab, 835 00:30:14,710 --> 00:30:16,869 and for people internationally to know who we 836 00:30:16,869 --> 00:30:17,369 are, 837 00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:19,590 as, you know, as one of the premier 838 00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:20,090 facilities. 839 00:30:21,644 --> 00:30:22,845 Well, look, Paul, I think you've got a 840 00:30:22,845 --> 00:30:25,085 brilliant story down there. And, thank you for 841 00:30:25,085 --> 00:30:26,765 inviting me, and thanks for coming on the 842 00:30:26,765 --> 00:30:28,285 podcast. And I really do wish you all 843 00:30:28,285 --> 00:30:29,964 the best with, the center. It's, 844 00:30:30,765 --> 00:30:32,445 you know, you deserve a lot of success, 845 00:30:32,445 --> 00:30:34,605 and you're doing great stuff there. So thanks 846 00:30:34,605 --> 00:30:36,285 for coming on the podcast, Paul. And, 847 00:30:36,980 --> 00:30:38,580 yeah, hope to be in touch with you, 848 00:30:38,580 --> 00:30:40,099 and all the best for the future. No 849 00:30:40,099 --> 00:30:42,019 worries, Mateen. Thanks for, thanks for giving me 850 00:30:42,019 --> 00:30:43,960 the opportunity to talk to you. Cheers, mate. 851 00:30:51,615 --> 00:30:53,555 That was Swansea University's 852 00:30:54,015 --> 00:30:54,835 Paul Meredith 853 00:30:55,214 --> 00:30:58,674 in conversation with our very own Matin Durrani. 854 00:30:59,295 --> 00:31:01,634 Thanks to both of them for a fascinating 855 00:31:01,855 --> 00:31:02,355 discussion. 856 00:31:03,454 --> 00:31:05,394 One of the first and finest 857 00:31:06,099 --> 00:31:08,519 philosophical treatments of quantum mechanics 858 00:31:09,059 --> 00:31:10,679 is how one academic 859 00:31:11,139 --> 00:31:13,480 describes the work of the German physicist 860 00:31:13,940 --> 00:31:14,759 and philosopher, 861 00:31:15,380 --> 00:31:16,359 Greta Hermann, 862 00:31:16,899 --> 00:31:20,115 who was born in nineteen o one. While 863 00:31:20,115 --> 00:31:22,615 she sparred with the likes of Werner Heisenberg 864 00:31:23,075 --> 00:31:24,615 and John von Neumann, 865 00:31:24,994 --> 00:31:26,134 Hermann's contributions 866 00:31:26,434 --> 00:31:29,714 to quantum science have only recently come to 867 00:31:29,714 --> 00:31:30,214 light. 868 00:31:31,154 --> 00:31:34,214 In a new feature article in Physics World, 869 00:31:34,589 --> 00:31:36,049 the writer and physicist 870 00:31:36,509 --> 00:31:37,410 Sydney Perkowitz 871 00:31:38,190 --> 00:31:38,690 illuminates 872 00:31:38,990 --> 00:31:40,289 Hermann's extraordinary 873 00:31:40,669 --> 00:31:41,169 life 874 00:31:41,470 --> 00:31:44,210 from her early days as Emmy Noether's 875 00:31:44,589 --> 00:31:45,809 PhD student 876 00:31:46,349 --> 00:31:47,329 to her groundbreaking 877 00:31:47,789 --> 00:31:50,815 work on hidden variables and causality 878 00:31:51,194 --> 00:31:52,575 in quantum mechanics. 879 00:31:53,595 --> 00:31:54,095 Unfortunately, 880 00:31:54,794 --> 00:31:58,075 few physicists were aware of her papers when 881 00:31:58,075 --> 00:32:00,794 they came out, and Perkowitz says that if 882 00:32:00,794 --> 00:32:03,640 her work had been more widely known, it 883 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:04,380 could have altered 884 00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:05,980 the early development 885 00:32:06,359 --> 00:32:07,579 of quantum mechanics. 886 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,679 You can find that article on the Physics 887 00:32:10,679 --> 00:32:11,579 World website. 888 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:13,500 Just look for the headline, 889 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:14,940 Greta Herman, 890 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:16,619 the quantum physicist 891 00:32:17,164 --> 00:32:19,105 who challenged Werner Heisenberg 892 00:32:19,484 --> 00:32:21,025 and John von Neumann. 893 00:32:21,884 --> 00:32:23,724 I'm afraid that's all the time we have 894 00:32:23,724 --> 00:32:25,025 for this week's podcast. 895 00:32:25,404 --> 00:32:28,765 Thanks to Paul Meredith and Matin Durrani for 896 00:32:28,765 --> 00:32:29,825 a great discussion. 897 00:32:30,284 --> 00:32:32,910 And a special thanks to our producer, Fred 898 00:32:32,910 --> 00:32:33,410 Ailes. 899 00:32:34,029 --> 00:32:37,009 Next week, our guest is Ference Krauss, 900 00:32:37,309 --> 00:32:39,569 who shared the 2023 901 00:32:39,950 --> 00:32:42,450 Nobel Prize for Physics for developing 902 00:32:43,150 --> 00:32:43,650 experimental 903 00:32:44,029 --> 00:32:44,529 methods 904 00:32:44,865 --> 00:32:45,605 that generate 905 00:32:46,065 --> 00:32:46,565 attosecond 906 00:32:46,944 --> 00:32:49,924 pulses of light for the study of electron 907 00:32:50,144 --> 00:32:50,644 dynamics 908 00:32:51,105 --> 00:32:51,924 in matter. 909 00:32:52,625 --> 00:32:56,005 In a conversation with Physics World's Tammy Freeman, 910 00:32:56,464 --> 00:32:58,325 Krauss explains how attosecond 911 00:32:58,625 --> 00:32:59,125 physics 912 00:32:59,429 --> 00:33:00,169 is poised 913 00:33:00,470 --> 00:33:01,450 to revolutionize 914 00:33:01,829 --> 00:33:02,649 health care. 915 00:33:03,109 --> 00:33:06,009 Tune in next week to hear that interview.