Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly
podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston.
In this episode, I'm in conversation
with my Physics World colleague, Matin Durrani,
who is back from Paris
where he attended the star studded opening ceremony
of the twenty twenty five
International Year of Quantum Science and Technology
or IYQ.
Hi, Matin.
Welcome to the podcast, and welcome back from
France.
Hello, Hamish. Great to be back.
So,
I mean, in my intro, I said that
you were there for the, international year of
quantum science and technology,
the opening ceremony. Can you tell us a
bit about that international year? Why why were
people there in Paris
celebrating?
Well, this year is the International Year of
Quantum Science Technology. And the reason for the,
year being declared that because,
it's a hundred years since Werner Heisenberg
invented
quantum mechanics on the island of Helgoland
in June
1925.
And to celebrate that centenary and all the
wonderful things that quantum science and technology can
do,
the United Nations has declared this year to
be IYQ,
and
UNESCO, which is the,
United Nations educational,
cultural scientific and cultural organization, has the headquarters
in Paris. And whenever they have one of
these international years, they always, as far as
I understand, kick off with a big event
at the headquarters in Paris in, the French
capital.
I see. And and
Helgoland,
for for listeners who don't know where Helgoland
is, that's a small island
off the coast of Germany, isn't it, in
the North Sea? And Heisenberg was there,
on a holiday,
sort of fleeing pollen
because he has a he has a very
bad allergy, didn't he? And when when he
was there, he had a
a revelation about
using matrices and vectors,
to describe the the mathematics of of quantum
physics. And and that's sort of where it
all kicked off, isn't it? Yeah. That's right.
So going back a hundred years, he was
a Heisenberg was a postdoc at the time,
in Gottingen
and under Max Born. And he had this
suffered from very bad hay fever and, you
know, he wanted to go to this island
and asked for two weeks leave from Born,
hoping to get away from,
the,
where he was and get some clear air
to clear his mind and clear his allergies.
And he went there to this island, got
a boat there.
I'm I'm still not sure why he went
there. I guess it's a sort of lovely
remote place with the North Sea winds being
nice and bracing. And it was during that
two week spell on the island that he,
came up with this, quantum mechanics. And when
he got back to Gottingen, he then, fired
off a paper,
which was published later that year, and that
is the hook for the centenary. And,
I mean, there there had this be obviously,
Max Planck had been the sort of person
who sort of started the idea of quantum
physics, but he didn't really quite believe in
it. It was like,
you know, he thought that was a sort
of, a get around. He didn't really like
it. But it was really Heisenberg who, you
know, came up with a proper formulation
for quantum mechanics, a mathematical framework.
And then later it was Schrodinger who invented
wave mechanics, which was sort of the same
kind of thing. So, yeah, going back a
hundred years. So Helgerland is that little island,
off the coast of Germany.
Right. And, so so can you give us
an idea of the venue, this UNESCO venue?
I mean, you you you've written about it
for Physics World, and it looks very glitzy.
You've got some fantastic photographs that you've taken
of, what looked like a huge auditorium
packed with, dignitaries.
Is that,
what was the vibe like?
Well, the headquarters is, in Paris, so southwest
of the city center quite near to the
Eiffel Tower,
a very smart neighborhood.
You got the Boulevard Pasta,
is the one that connects the hotel I
was staying at to where we were. And
it's a big sixties building, quite grand,
and you can see the Eiffel Tower, you
know, nearby.
And,
when you actually get past the security, and
they're quite tight with,
security
people, they found my toothbrush set off the
alarm, so that I managed to get that.
My electric toothbrush is in my bag. Toothbrush
is in my bag.
You got in, and then once you're in,
there's a big a big Hall Congress Hall
where the main event happened on the on
the first day. And and once you're in,
it's it was kind of like a scientific
conference, and I know Peter Knight who's
from Imperial College London. He's a very big,
figure in UK Quantum Physics, helped to organize
much of the program for that first day.
So once you were in there, it was,
you know, like a, you know, a big,
scientific conference with, some, you know, big dignitaries
opening the day. And,
actually, Anne Louwelier,
who won the Nobel Prize in 2023,
gave the the first plenary talk of the
morning. So,
it In fact, there were four Nobel Laureates
there, which was nice to see. Yeah. That's
pretty impressive. And I think there were more
than 800 other people who were there. So
can can you give us a feel? Was
it for for who those people were? Was
it mostly physicists? Were were was it big
name physicists, people that you recognized?
Were there some
government,
people there, some politicians?
Who who who who was there? Well, you
had people from UNESCO who are the people
backing the year. You had
government officials, I think. You had, yeah, obviously,
some scientists were there. You had people from
the organizations who were the so have been
sponsoring the international year. So the Institute of
Physics, the American Physical Society,
the German Physical Society.
You had some companies there. There were a
lot of big tech companies involved in quantum
tech, so they were there as well.
And I think the event was actually open
to members of the public. How many people
actually came in, I don't know. But they
it was open to the public as well.
Right. So as as long as you didn't
turn up with your electric toothbrush,
they'd let you in. Yeah. So you you
mentioned four Nobel laureates.
Who who who were they? You mentioned one
already. And and and, you know, what
what did they say? What was their, what
was their pitch about, about Quantum and why
we should be celebrating it this year?
Well, the other two were Alan Aspect, who's
French, and Sergei Roche, and they were taking
part in various panel debates.
The one that really interested me was,
William Phillips,
who won the Nobel Prize in, I think,
'97
for his work on laser cooling.
And he, you know, he must be, I
think, in his mid seventies,
but still really active and gave a brilliant
talk,
really, really very interesting about this sort of
history of quantum physics.
And,
he's such a sort of modest person. He
said I think he'd been bigged up by
the person introducing him as one of the
greatest minds in quantum physics. And he said,
oh, well, I'm not sure about that, but
I I have done one or two experiments.
They're not just one or two experiments. Some
of you know, he's incredible experimentalist. And he,
you know, he's got this lovely voice that,
you could listen I could listen to for
ages, and he did a really, really good,
lecture. The only problem with it, Ham, is
you won't like this. It was in Comic
Sans. Some of the some of the fonts
he chose, but I'll I'll let that slip.
Right. Right. Is is is that a, is
that a nod to the current is it
the DG of,
of CERN? I think it was Fabiola Gianotti
who,
was mocked once for using Comic Sans.
I don't know about that. I I should
say I don't know about mocking her. I
think, you know, you should be able to
use whatever font
you you wish. I'd say it wasn't the
only font he used, but I think it
did rattle me a little bit that he
chose Comic Sans, so I'll let him off
the hook on that. But, yeah, he he
gave, you know, a really wonderful,
wonderful talk, that was, you know, well received,
I think.
And, you you also mentioned some business people.
I mean,
quantum technology is sort of a burgeoning sector
at the moment. There's lots of investment going
into it,
both in big companies like Google and IBM,
and there's lots of startups making, I you
know, anything from quantum sensors to quantum computers.
What, who who is there representing
companies, and what what did they have to
say about,
quantum technology?
Well, there was this panel session hosted by,
someone you've talked to, Hamish, on the podcast,
Celia Mertzbacher, who's,
she's executive director of a of an organization
called the Quantum Economic Development Consortium, which has
lots of industry members.
So she had a there was a panel
session that she chaired with various people from,
firms like,
I'm just checking who it was, Cuera,
Continuum,
ID Quantique,
which is one of the earliest firms actually
set up almost a quarter of a century
ago. They're very much from the pioneer set
up in Switzerland.
And there was,
Krista Soarer from Microsoft who I know we've
talked to on the podcast before.
And there was a someone called Alexander Ling
who is from the National University of Singapore
and has set up a couple of start
ups. So some really big names in there,
talking about the opportunities for,
people in that sector. And it's a real
burgeoning area with things moving really fast, a
lot of job opportunities in it.
And and and what was the buzz? I
mean, I know that, you know, I've been
to a few meetings,
in London that sort of focus on the
business side of quantum.
And, you know, although there's there's lots of,
well, for lack of a better word, hype,
there's also talk about,
you know, not bigging things up too much,
you know, trying to avoid a a a
sort of a boom and bust in quantum
technology. Was that a thing that people were
talking about, or was it all positive? I
know Peter Knight, for example, who you mentioned
is, you know, very big on not bigging
up quantum too much. Yeah. It's a tricky
one, isn't it, Hamish? Because we know that,
you know, there's another international year going on
at the moment about glacier preservation.
And the kind of theme of that is
let's not let the glaciers melt. And it's
kind of a really obvious target. And the
trouble with quantum science and technology is, well,
what is the actual thing that we're celebrating?
Because if you the danger is if you
overhype it and promise the earth, that that
can, you know, sound a bit
extreme, a bit ridiculous. On the other hand,
if you make the,
benefits of it too, if you minimize them,
it doesn't sound very exciting. So it's trying
to get that get that balance right.
One of the themes that was people talked
about was the the digital divide. You don't
want to you don't want quantum science
to only be the preserve of countries that
can afford
to take advantage of it and leaving
countries in
what we know is the global south,
behind. And I think that was a sort
of theme of it, that we want the
whole world to benefit from this, from what's
going on. Yeah. I think, I think you
mentioned in the in the article that you
read about your visit
that,
there was a representative
representative of the Ghanaian government,
someone,
I think his name is Safas
Ajay Mensah,
and he, he he gave a talk,
at at the,
at the opening
just about that.
You know, let's make sure that this is
this isn't only something for rich countries who
can afford
developing quantum technologies and can afford, educating people
about quantum, that it has to be something
that's shared around the world. What what what
was he saying?
Yeah. That was very much a theme of
his he was gave some of the opening
remarks on the first day. And I think
the thing about UNESCO is that all these
international years, they have to definitely benefit the
whole world. And I know it was Ghana,
which was the country he represents,
were the people who,
you know, led the draft resolution to the
United Nations Council. And I think the UN
is very keen that these international years shouldn't
just be the preserve of the rich nations,
that they have to be supported by everyone.
And there were other speakers from across,
the continent of Africa saying that, you know,
Africa has got I think a quarter of
its population is 25,
and there are all these talented people that,
you know you know, let's not let them
fall behind in, you know, exciting developments in
quantum science and technology. So it was definitely,
and as if you're in UNESCO, you see
all the flags of the world flying outside.
It's very much an international and global
year. That's something they're very, very, very keen
to underline with any of these international years.
Mhmm. I mean, I suppose it is a
tough one because,
you know, a lot of quantum science and
technology
relies on some pretty
expensive,
up to date equipment,
that you tend to find in, you know,
in richer countries. So,
I suppose it, you know, it it it
would be difficult to,
to to, you know, to to make sure
that people in in, the rest of the
world have access.
I I suppose maybe with, you know, sort
of learning about quantum mechanics and the theory
side of things, may you know, maybe it's
a bit easier
to glow go global with it. But,
you know, it is a challenge when you
need a very expensive
cryogenic system.
You know, it would be difficult for people
in a country like Ghana to to afford
that.
Yeah. And it's definitely not like, you know,
if you compare it to particle physics physics
where which is also, well, probably more expensive,
but you have access to these central facilities
where people can go to it or you've
got the Sesame synchrotron in The Middle East,
so big science can take advantage of sharing
the costs in central facilities. Yeah. That is
a problem with with quantum science and technology.
It can get expensive. But I suppose software
is free. There's not free, but it's cheap
to develop,
in terms of equipment. So that that could
be an area. But, yeah, that was definitely
a big theme, the, this so called
digital divide, quantum divide, making sure that's not
opened up.
I mean, I suppose, you know, at the
end of the day, that's, that that's sort
of a moral issue
surrounding,
quantum technology and making sure everybody has access
to it. But there there are other moral
issues, I think, that were discussed
at,
at the opening. Can can you give us
flavor for those? Yeah. The second day had
two sessions on the ethics of quantum science
and technology. And to be honest, some of
the language went over a bit of my
head. They kept talking about normative models, and
I I don't really understand what they were
talking about. But I think, yeah, there were
these ethical concerns that we shouldn't let,
things run away with ourselves, you know. And
the comparison was drawn with artificial intelligence where
once the genie's out the bag, you don't
know what you've unleashed till it's happened, and
you wanna make sure that concerns are raised
well in advance of them them happening. But
it's a yeah. It's a tricky thing, and
there were people like lawyers and ethical experts.
And, some of the language, like I say,
Hamish, it kind of confused me what exactly
they were saying,
but I I'm aware that it was a
you know, they definitely gave quite a big
focus to that on the second day.
I mean, one, you you know, sort of
ethical issue I can think of, and, you
know, maybe this is for for the future,
but, you know, in principle, I suppose a
a quantum computer could be used to break
a conventional crypto cryptography system.
And so you can imagine, you know, a
sort of quantum divide
between countries that,
can crack
other countries' conventional,
cryptography systems and also have access to quantum
cryptography systems that maybe others
don't have access to. You could see a
a real sort of security divide
developing in terms of countries that have gone
quantum because they can afford to do it,
and maybe some countries
who can't.
I mean, was there any discussion about that,
or was it a bit more general? No.
It's definitely that kind of thing. I mean,
you're reminding me of things like chat g
p t. You know, you can pay for
you have the free version, but there's a
version that you can pay for where you
get better answers.
And I think that's the concern that if
people don't have the money to afford the
better stuff, they don't get as high quality
results and and, application of the quantum tech
as other people. So I think that was
definitely that was definitely the concern.
And I and I suppose in general, there's
just, you know, if if if
quantum computers can indeed be used to to
solve very
important problems,
then you want everybody to to benefit from
that. You you know, you you not just,
I don't know, rich corporations who can afford
it, or rich big countries
who can afford to have their own quantum
computers. You want everybody to benefit from, I
don't know, the application of quantum computers to
dealing with climate change or creating better materials
for batteries, etcetera. You want,
you want access to that.
So,
yeah. Yeah. I mean, I suppose it could
be it could be difficult in the end
to to have an equitable system. But, I
mean, it's good to hear that,
that people were talking about and thinking about
it already. Yeah. I mean, I don't wanna
be get paint the impression that the event
was all really purely serious. There were some
quite fun moments. They had, on stage, they
have this
French electro music duo called Doppel Handle, which
I wasn't expecting. So between speakers, this, these
two this duo, a man and a woman,
started playing some very loud music, which I'm
not sure some of the delegates what they
made of it. But that was quite exciting.
And the the whole stage was lit up
with wonderful sort of green and blue colors
and, you know, that and that was very
memorable. There's a big IYQ
logo on the stage
in the corner, which was fun. And there
was a I should also mention one of
the there was a little art art display
there, and and there was a guy who
had a
a a sort of wonderful
mosaic of well, he said there were doorknobs,
those springy little things that you have to
stop a door open. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I
remember being fascinated by those as a kid
and, you know, sort of springing them, and
then they'd fly off, and I'd be in
big trouble for knocking it off the wall.
Yeah. Well, no. He had a shedload of
those which he'd sort of wired up. And
so each if you plucked one of them,
it lit up, and and then a sort
of set of lights would sort of cascade
across this big mosaic, which is perhaps three
meters by two meters.
And it was meant to show how things
have superposition
entanglement and So they coupled coupled harmonic oscillators?
Because I'd imagine if you put a few
of those on a on a table and
you sort of got one going, they would
vibrate in sympathy? Or Yes. Something like that.
To be honest, I'd to be honest, I
have no idea what what what it was
about. But it was certainly got people attracted,
and people went up and started flicking it.
And he did he did explain to me,
but I I didn't understand what he was
saying. And I I've I've got his business
card, so I was gonna get in touch
and ask him to explain. We should get
him on the podcast, actually, Hamish, and get
him to get him to explain it because
he was very engaging. And he he had
this display, which I think he'd he'd made
a few years ago, and he transports it
to various,
exhibitions. So,
And I think quantum music and quantum art,
that's something that we've explored
a little bit in physics world. I think
it was Phil Ball.
Did he go to a,
a sort of a
a a I don't know what the word
is, a performance of quantum music
in London. Yeah. That's right. It was at
the Goethe Institute a few years ago. In
fact, we had a wonderful feature by Phil
Bawdle about
how quantum computers can play music. So definitely
there's this art science thing going on with
quantum
that, you know, you know, that is part
part part of the mystery of, quantum physics
is is is mysterious and it's exciting for
physicists, but also that mystery really resonates with
the public. And if you can get an
art exhibition that kind of taps into that
and kind of ex explain some of the
the strange things
I mean, one of the things that was
mentioned was that,
UNESCO was this this whole people like to
talk about quantum mechanics as being weird. I
mean, it is weird, but it's also
understandably weird. It's not it can be put
put to good use. So the danger is
that
people talking about it being weird make it
sound like it's
wrong or dodgy or Yeah. Accurate. And of
course, quantum mechanics is brilliant. So is that
is that weirdness being played down
in IYQ?
Is it is weirdness not a theme?
Are we talking about quantum physics as something
that, oh, yeah. We understand it, and we
can harvest it,
to
to do good things, or are we still,
you know, are we still calling it weird?
Well, I mean, it is weird. It is
weird. Get around that. The the weirdness, it
is weird, but it's also really useful and
accurate. So,
you know, that's just the way the world
is, and it's it's quite hard. It's a
subtle concept to say this thing that's really
weird. Well, it's only weird because we, in
our heads, can't get our heads around it,
but it is accurate.
So, yeah, that is that is a challenge
for anyone involved in the year of quantum
this year. And certainly, that exhibition that I
showed, the the art installation
helped. And people were going up to it
and playing with it, and the the simple
the beautiful pink and green lights were attracting
people who could then
pluck these doorknobs.
And this isn't the first international year
grand opening that you've been to, is it?
In I think is it 2015
you went to the international year of light?
Could it have been 2015
that long ago?
You were in Paris with with Peter Knight,
I think.
And so
or maybe not. I don't know if Peter
Knight was there, but, yeah, that is my
second
my second international year. It was the year
of light in 2015.
How do they compare? How do the ceremonies
compare? Is it,
were people just as enthusiastic about light as
they are about quantum mechanics or more enthusiastic?
Certainly, the from what I remember ten years
ago, the the arts and exhibition side of
it was more
extensive. And I think maybe because light is
a simpler concept
to to get across, and there was a
more extensive exhibition. And,
but, yeah, I still remember that International Year
of Light,
the Nobel Prize winning chemist,
Ahmed Zirali, who,
I think moved he was Egyptian born and
moved to The US.
And I remember at the time, he gave
the opening address and,
laughed and said, oh,
he was born in 1492
according to Physics World because we published the
story. Again, got our numbers mixed up. It
had been 1942.
And we'd made that mistake, and I was
really annoyed at the time because he told
the whole audience that, of course, going to
Physics World, he was born in 1492,
and there were these incredible guffaws going through
the audience. But then,
as I always say in such situations, as
Oscar Wilde said, if there's one thing worse
than being talked about, it's not being talked
about. So, I I I let him off
that.
But, yeah, that was the International Year of
Light ten years ago. So I was having
all these flashbacks,
from ten years ago when I was in
that. It was the same venue.
So there are I mean, there are it's
not just light and quantum
physics and technology that that get international years.
There's lots of
international years. I'm, you know, I'm I'm I'm
guessing that there's the international year of the
potato and,
whatever. But, I I suppose my final question
for you, Matin, is if you if you
could have your own international year,
what would you have? I mean, you know,
ideally
physics related, but,
you know, it doesn't have to be physics
related. But, you know, is there is there
another aspect of physics besides quantum and
light that you think would Oh, that's a
good question. Every year? Well, we've had the
international year of astronomy.
We've had the international year of physics. We've
had the international year of the periodic table
and the potatoes you mentioned.
Oh, I don't know. Well, I've always my
my year my specialty was soft matter. So
let's have the intention of soft matter, but
that doesn't really have a ring to it,
does it? I don't know. Maybe that maybe
that's too narrow. Is it a bit fuzzy?
It's a bit fuzzy.
So what's missing? I mean, particle physics would
be a good one. Yeah. Yeah. Does does
it need any more publicity, the particle physics?
Let's go with particle physics. Yeah. Yeah. I
think particle physics is a good one. I
mean, I I, you know, I always thought,
you know, magnetism would be a good one
because, you know, magnetism is, you know, it
it it's still, you know, from a theoretical
point of view, it's still a bit of
a mystery, you know, in terms of, you
know, actually working the theory out. But on
the other hand, it's, you know, it's extraordinarily
useful. You know, magnets are are everywhere. And,
you know, those new magnets,
you know, the incredibly strong ones,
they've, you know, led to a revolution in,
you know, things like drones
and,
you know,
wind generators and things like that, you know,
because they they they're they have such powerful
magnetic fields,
in such a small space. So, you know,
International Year of Magnets and Magnetism,
that could be a good one. I know
there was a push to have the International
Year of Sound in 2018, and I I
think that never went anywhere.
I think maybe they were inspired by the
year of light. They went to the year
of sound.
So that could be another one. But mag
magnets is good. Yeah. And, obviously, magnets are,
you know, hugely important in electric vehicles and
in computing and
yeah. So that would be a good one.
I guess to get a you in such
a year approved, you need to have
lots of political fingers and, you know, know
the right people. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll just
do we'll just have to find some Nobel
Prize winners,
you know, in magnetism
and, maybe get them on our side.
Well, thanks for coming on the podcast, Matin,
and, telling us all about your trip to
Paris.
And you can find all of our IYQ
related content on the Physics World website.
Just click on the topics tab at the
top of the web page and then select
quantum.
I'm afraid that's all the time we have
for this week's podcast.
Thanks again to Matin, and a special thanks
to our producer, Fred Isles.
We'll be back again next week.