Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly
podcast.
This episode features an interview with the physicist
Julius Sutcliffe,
who is chief scientific advisor to the UK's
department for business and trade.
In a wide ranging conversation with Physics World's
Matin Durrani,
Sutcliffe explains how she began her career as
a PhD physicist
before working in systems engineering at British Aerospace,
where she worked on cutting edge technologies
including robotics,
AI, and autonomous systems.
They also chat about her current role advising
the UK government
to ensure that policy making is underpinned
by the best evidence.
So I'm delighted to be joined today by
Julia Sutcliffe,
who's been chief scientific
adviser at the UK's
department for business and trade since early 2023.
Hello, and welcome to the podcast, Julia. Thank
you for having me.
So before we come to your current role,
I suppose, how did you first get interested
in physics? You you I mean, you studied
physics at university, but what what sparked your
initial interest in the subject?
Yeah. So thank you. Lovely question. So and
I I sort of recognize I might be
a slight oddity here having studied physics and
at degree in PhD level, then moved into
sort of a lifetime career in engineering as
a systems engineer, and then
most likely becoming a science adviser.
But physics runs right the way through that
whole story. So
so why did I first get involved in
physics? What fascinated me? I do you know
what? I think I'd have to go right
back to being sort of a child of
the seventies when we went to see big
sort of feats of engineering and science that
were developed. And I distinctly remember as a
child going to see
things like the Harrier jump jet at a
windswept airfield in the north of England.
I go to see the opening of the
Humber Bridge, and and my grandparents took me
to see Jodrell Bank.
And actually,
at Jodrell Bank for the first time, I
sort of thought, oh, you can actually do
this as a job. People here actually do
this for a living. Oh, amazing.
And I I was able to buy a
little sort of booklet about physics
when I was at Jobel Bank. And
and so I studied physics at school, 3
a levels at the time and then a
levels. And it
I I just
I loved the subject. It seems such a
plucky subject that attempted to describe the various
fabric of the universe through ticker tape trolleys,
ripple tanks, and then much more complex equipment
at university. So I guess I was just
fascinated
to sort of learn housing's
work to some extent.
And, yeah, went to
Nottingham University,
which was, which majored at the time in
sort of magnetic resonance imaging, semicon,
and
quantum.
Nobel laureate professor Peter Mansfield sir professor Peter
Mansfield was there as one of the teaching
and research staff. And, of course,
sir Andre Geim of Graphene fame was a
was a post doc there at the time
that I was there.
And I worked,
with Professor Stan Clough and his team,
to explore the transition from classical to quantum
mechanics using
nuclear magnetic resonance.
We've worked with brilliant researchers in the UK,
got the opportunity to go and see international
teams through conferences, etcetera,
and had an absolutely fantastic
introduction to
getting at some of the fundamentals
that are properties of of matter,
in my PhD. It was an absolutely amazing
time and I I really, really thoroughly enjoyed
it. And the team at Nottingham were absolutely
brilliant. And I certainly remember that phase very
fondly.
So what made you move out of academia
then? Because you then went off to,
you ended up at British Aerospace. So what,
you didn't fancy staying on and having a
career in academia? What what persuaded you to
move out of the lab and into,
outside academia?
Do you know, I suppose,
firstly, when I finished my PhD, having been
so long at in at university,
I really wanted to just go and see
some stuff. And so I I had a
sort of a troubling adventure. I I had
an ambition to go and,
ride an elephant through a jungle, ride a
camel across the desert, see some high mountain.
So I I went off and did precisely
those things in India and Nepal and Thailand,
which was amazing.
And then sort of came back to the
UK and thought, right, I better grow up
quickly and and get a job and start
earning some money. And I was,
going to work at the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory,
and then there was a glitch with the
funding, but I also spoke to National Physics
Laboratory and others. But I decided to work
at British Aerospace
because,
I went I joined the research center there
in Bristol,
and it was a it was a great
team that were really at the cutting edge
of sort of applied physics,
doing really novel things with robotics,
with autonomy,
early days of Wi Fi,
sensing technologies,
utilizing
AI, and it it just seemed an absolutely
fascinating place to work. So
so yeah. So I I joined,
the advanced embedded
systems demonstrator team in the advanced information processing
department at the research center.
And we did we did loads of really
interesting work, things like,
acoustic emission monitoring of fatigue and cracking in
air crossed wings and undercarriage, things like that.
But also I was I was introduced there
to
basically to some information
theory and Bayesian statistics and how you deal
with uncertainty
and messy information.
And we had an emerging,
what did we were developing a sort of
mobile robotics laboratory and starting to think about
networks of things that could,
in a decentralized
way, sort of make decisions and sort of
self organize. And it it might sound really
simple now, but I suppose it's just worth
remembering that in those days,
it was quite a long time ago. You
know, people didn't have mobile phones.
Computers that had access to email were often
on shared servers and the processing power that
was available and the communications
bandwidth was
absolutely minuscule compared to what it is today.
But it was it was a really active
and still is active area of research, and,
I I had a great time there working
with,
collab
colleagues within within British Aerospace, but also collaborators
across academia.
Professor Hugh Derek White's group in Oxford, particularly
on data fusion.
We were also very interested in what teams
at
Carnegie Mellon were doing around
Mars rover,
projects and the DARPA Grand Challenge around sort
of autonomous
systems. And so it was it was really
fascinating, really active academic and sort of innovation,
sort of engineering,
teams.
So it was, yeah, it was great. And
one of the first things I was asked
to do
was review the the state of the art
in AI. And so we are into sort
of fuzzy logic and machine vision
at the time. And all of this sort
of coupled with the sort of uncertainty,
the need to make decisions.
And so it was it was absolutely fascinating.
And I sort of mentioned the AI bit
there because I
I will return to that later. But just
thinking about my PhD in
quantum mechanics, and then my first
first investigation
was to look at the to review the
state of the art in AI.
You know, couple of decades later,
the prime minister is talking about those topics.
And it it just
serves to show that the wavelength of technology
development of application
is long. And I know we're very used
to at the moment thinking there's a rapid
pace of technology development.
But actually,
if what is not seen or not as
obvious to people
is this huge community of engineers,
technicians,
technologists,
scientists that have been developing
these areas of technology for years decades. So,
yeah. So it was it was absolutely fascinating.
And
I can talk about,
some of the interesting stuff that I did
both in the UK, but, of course, I
then
transferred out to the Australian arm of the
business. So
I can some stuff there if that's helpful,
because that was another kind of adventure altogether.
Well, let's come maybe come back to that.
Let's, I mean, it all sounds fascinating
and you're at the forefront of things, I
suppose.
So why did you decide to join the
Department of Business and Trade as chief science
adviser? You talked about complex systems. I suppose
there's nothing more complex than the political world.
And trying to get your,
must be very difficult,
you know, was it a difficult transition from
the tech arena to doing what you do
now?
So I I
think to answer that
and perhaps give you an understanding of of
perhaps why and what enabled the transition was
when I worked in industry
as
technologist, chief engineer, chief technologist,
always involved in that sort of innovation ecosystem
and trying to pull through sort of technology
development that leveraged
fundamental discovery science across a range of areas,
such as AI, robotics,
human machine teaming, virtual reality, augmented reality, etcetera.
Trying to pull that through into products that
you can get into the marketplace
at the right time that are competitive
is super,
super difficult.
It's really challenging
because so many things
need to align. So just to
to just give you some,
examples of that, which will help make sense
of of the answer that I'm coming to.
So you need to have technology readiness
aligned.
So the technology has to be ready. So
whether that's AI, whether it's quantum,
or whether it's
advanced manufacturing processes or material science, it it's
got to be at a state of readiness
so that you can pull it through into
products.
But you also need
skills. So you're not in in the sort
of,
you're not in the sort of proof of
concept phase. When you're pulling it through into
product, you need skills that are not just
technologists,
engineers.
You also need
project managers, risk managers. You need a commercial
team that can sort of really make those
sort of product and commercial decisions.
You need infrastructure.
So test environments are really, really important.
And that can be big and complex test
environments, or it can be smaller, much more
contained environments.
But typically, as part of that, you will
also be working with regulators
because it's really important when you're going to
invest
a significant amount of time, effort, resource into
generating product.
You need to know that you're gonna get
it through the regulatory framework. You need to
know that it's going to be accepted.
And then in addition to the sort of
regulatory side of things, you need
you need access to finance. You need capital
potentially
to
invest
in large scale sort of complex demonstrators.
You need access to the markets, and you
need the appropriate level of risk appetite for
the products that you've got.
So I spent a long time working on
uncreened air vehicles and autonomous systems,
and getting that into the market was very
much dependent on where the sort of risk
appetite was. And
now if public perception goes against you, then
it's it's really challenging no matter how good
your technology is. So so having all of
those things lined up is really important to
support the kind of innovation,
engineering, science community, pull through great ideas into
products that then allow companies to grow,
increase productivity,
trade internationally,
etcetera.
So
having had a sort
of multiple
amazing ventures with,
British Aerospace and then BA Systems in Australia,
it felt like a few years ago,
sort of the the first time that I
could sort of recall in my career history
where
everybody was talking about
the power of science and technology to really
underpin
growth within the UK and to really address
some of the challenges around
net 0,
just security and resilience, supply chain resilience,
health and well-being.
And so seeing that some prime minister was
talking about technologies,
we have departments that were set up that
were there to drive innovation, science, and technology.
It it just felt a really interesting time
to sort of move across
and think about how I could add value
on the other side of the fence, if
you will. And I I'd spoken to a
few other chief scientific advisers to sort of
scope out what is the actual role,
and is it something that I think I
could add value to? So
so that sort of background in industry
and what it takes to traverse that arc
of technology into trade or products,
I felt was was an insight that that
would help me in this role. So what
are the main functions as chief science adviser?
Is it a a full time role? And,
you know, how do you fit in with
the other people in the department?
Yeah. So it is absolutely a full time
role. So the the role of the
the chief scientific adviser is is
multiple aspects to it. But predominantly,
is to provide advice
on all aspects of science, technologies, of engineering
innovation, if you will, into
ministers and officials, into the policy making teams,
etcetera. So that
policy making and decision making is underpinned with
the very best evidence
in terms of the science and the technology.
So in full cognizance of what science and
technology is is saying,
we know that science and technology is not
exact.
It's a continual evolution process. So having the
most
current understanding of of of the sciences
is important. So that's a key role for
the,
CSA team.
I therefore have accountability in the department to
make sure that the structures and mechanisms to
provide that advice in at the right times
are in place. So, a lot of departments
have science advisory councils and different
independent bodies that sort of sit and provide
sort of advice
into departments and CSAs
access that advice
to convene
expert groups, etcetera. So
so that's important that we have a, if
you like, a science system that allows us
to generate the right advice at the right
time. There is then also a kind of
a almost an ambassadorial role for science within
the department and for the department outside of
government. So that interface with business,
understanding what businesses need. So I'm talking from
a department of business and trade perspective now
very much around how businesses
want to grow, what kind of technology insights
they need, that list of things, infrastructure skills,
finance, etcetera.
What the narrative is from the business community
and the different sectors around that.
That's important.
And and indeed, I had, for example, the
great privilege of leading
the UK delegation of innovators out to Taiwan
for the semiconductor conference around about this time
last year. So
so we get to do really interesting stuff
with the community as well.
And then, of course,
I should also mention that the chief scientific
advisers, of which there is one in all
government departments,
work together as a network team under the
sort of government chief scientific adviser, Jay Manuel
Matrayne,
to resolve any cross cutting issues, point out
where there are leverage opportunities.
And and you will know well that,
on many of the challenges that we that
we have ahead, that there are opportunities
and a much of that science and technology
that underpins that is cross cutting.
It's relevant to the political department. So bringing
that community together that can speak as one
voice
of as experts is is really important.
So the next question I had was, you
know, what are the main items on your
sort of in tray at the moment? What
are the most pressing issues? I mean, has
there been a change? We've got a new
government in the UK. Has there been a
new change of direction? Or so what are
the main issues that you're dealing with at
the moment? You mentioned AI being important
and, I guess, sort of things like, you
know, so what what is the main main
things at the moment?
Yeah. So,
you all have you'll have seen, as and
as you mentioned, sort of AI has been
a a a really big scene.
In certain the previous government really majored on
that.
So what our key issues are how to
leverage
the things that we have really good strategic
advantages. So we are well known for our
science and technology baseline.
We have excellent science and technology in the
UK. We're internationally recognized for that.
How to then utilize that to drive growth?
So the new government has announced,
that in their manifesto that they want an
industrial strategy. They've talked about growth missions,
green,
clean energy missions, etcetera.
So how we utilize
that bedrock of brilliant scientists and engineers and
all the capabilities we have, how we can
hear that,
to enable those outcomes is super important.
And what does that mean, you know, up
and down the country, regionally? What does it
mean in terms of different sectors? And,
so, yeah, just supporting that sort of that
sort of great
opportunity we have in front of us at
the moment. Those
key challenges are also big opportunities
for businesses and for growth, great jobs, etcetera.
So
And in that role as chief science adviser,
what sort of skills do you personally need?
What do you bring to the table that,
obviously, you're not doing science anymore, but I
I I imagine it's sort of orchestrating people
and, persuading people and, you know, being a
champion. Are those the kind of things that
you need to be good at? Yeah. Well,
that's a lovely, lovely question. So I I
think there are kind of 2
superpowers
that the this community
has.
The first one is absolutely gleaned through doing
physics, and that is the scientific
method.
The ability
to
put out a framework,
create some experiments,
understand the results,
analyze,
adapt your
understanding
of whatever it is,
and and to present the outcomes.
So as we mentioned,
science is a continual
process. So so the scientific method, that structural
approach
is
super important.
I think the the other thing
in in my case, having been a systems
engineer in industry for 26 years before doing
this job,
the other sort of core element that's very
relevant time now
is the understanding of systems problems
and systems challenges. That systems thinking
where you understand
or can organize
the different facets of the problem. So whether
it's, you know, we used to do this
all the time,
in industry, but certainly in government where you
sort of pick out
what are the core requirements, what are the
stakeholders,
where are the trade offs, where are the
balances, if I do this over here, what
happens over here?
There are few problems
that are not
systems problems. At a government level, these are
like large scale national,
international
agendas.
So that ability to think in a systems
mindset is really important.
And then the third thing that you touched
on, Martin, is is actually
the ability to bring people together.
We know that science, technology, and engineering is
a team sport.
This is not a solo endeavor usually. Whilst
we might have great names that that win
prizes and that's brilliant,
a lot of what goes into the sort
of blood, sweat, and tears of pushing things
through into products and innovations,
it's it's a team sport. It's really, really
collaborative
across
international borders, and it's across across academia, government,
business.
You know,
it was an an incredibly,
vibrant, collaborative community. And so the ability to
network,
bring people together, convene,
groups so that we can answer some of
those challenging questions is is a really important
thing as well. And there are some great
organizations
around
some of this, like, Royal Society, Royal Academy
of Engineering, Engineering Institutions,
IOP,
that all help to do that.
I mean, you've been in the job about
18 months. So what are the sort of
what are the best and things you like
most and the things you like least about
the job? And can you point to any
particular achievements that you've had? You go, right.
This has
done that. This is one really great thing
that I've I've managed to sort of, you
know, change in your time.
I think if you were to,
ask,
Dame Angela about her,
objectives, one of the things she talks about
is
making the civil service more scientific.
And indeed, that's what previous,
government chief scientific adviser, Patrick Valance, was keen
on as well.
So so actually,
part of what I'm doing within my department
is bringing that sort of science, engineering,
and structure into those sort of conversations
and recognizing that those skills that we talked
about, that sort of methodological
approach, the systems thinking,
that's really important. So gradually, over a period
of time, working with teams sort of just
to sort of bring that sort of scientific
analysis, that engineering
understanding
to to the work that we do is
a key part of it.
What have I really enjoyed? I've really, really
enjoyed
the the colleagues that I've met. So
the problems
are amazingly
complex,
interesting
problems. And if we can address them,
then
the the founding that they'll create is something
that we can really be proud of. So
that's that's
really privileged to be in that sort of
situation.
But then the colleagues that I work with
are amazing. I mean, I've had that throughout
my career.
I've been very lucky to work with absolutely
brilliant people that are on their game, that
absolutely,
know what they're doing, are so capable, so
intelligent, as have been so welcoming. So,
I've really, really enjoyed that. And the transition
hasn't been as difficult as as it could
have been
because, actually,
colleagues have been so welcoming.
If you thinking more widely, if there was
sort of one thing in science and engineering
that you could you could change if you
had a magic wand and could do it
overnight, what would you what would you change
to sort of, you know, help,
you know, boost innovation and technology and businesses
in your role that you're trying to do?
Do you know? I honestly think it's it's
probably bringing
science and technology
into mainstream into mainstream dialogue. So sometimes science
is,
dialogue.
So sometimes
science has perhaps seen a bit overly. It's
sort of over there. There's a set of
r and d people that do something over
there.
But actually,
bringing it into just mainstream dialogue, it's not
something to be frightened of. It's it's something
that is really embracing.
It's really collaborative. It's a really supportive community.
I think that is,
something that we all aspire to sort of
see, and that will be of great benefit
to be able to
to have that sort of narrative, that dialogue
that's just seen as mainstream and as part
of day to day.
Interestingly,
I had the great privilege of going to
visit CERN earlier this year.
And
I was struck by the fact when I
went there that that actually
there was a small percentage of people who
were doing physics research, particle physics,
a much larger percentage of people who were
technicians,
computer scientists,
you know, engineers that were building, running, designing,
developing the whole thing. So I think just
recognizing
the sort of strength of science and engineering
that we have
and and making that more
mainstream
because our understanding and appreciation of it would
be would be really great to have.
Absolutely. And I I probably concur with you
on that one. Before we finish, you know,
looking back on your career, is there any
one thing, you know, if you look back
at, say, your younger self,
what would you wish you'd known to back
then that you now know today,
that you could have told your previous self
as you started out your career?
Yeah.
Gosh, Janelle. Probably that anything is possible.
I I genuinely
do believe that the engineering and science community
is very meritocratic.
It's hugely collaborative.
There is a lot of space for everybody.
And so
I would just don't be afraid to take
the plunge. You know, it's
it's really welcoming.
And and as I say, it's
it's really important that more and more people
see this as something that's mainstream.
And so,
yeah, if anybody has got a slight thought
about doing something to do with science and
engineering
or maths, then I would just say absolutely
go for it. Be unafraid.
It's really welcoming.
There are amazing
challenges
to solve
that will be available for you to be
involved in.
So,
yeah, it's a brilliant time to be a
scientist, engineer,
mathematician.
So,
yeah, don't be afraid. Take the plunge.
Brilliant. That's a very lovely message to finish
off. What are you doing for the rest
of the day?
Give us an insight into what the CSA
does day to day. What's what's what happens
to be the next thing on your agenda
today?
Well, so the next thing on the agenda
is going to be a team meeting,
where we'll go through the work that's ahead
of us, the things that we need to
get cleared out this week, things that we've
done next week, some of our longer term
strategic
priority activities.
Then there's a set of meetings that I'll
have, some one to ones,
and then I'll be doing some reading, reading
of reports, etcetera. So,
yeah, all good. All good. Alright. Well, lovely
to have you on, and thanks very much
for joining us, Julia Sutcliffe. Thank
you.
That was Julia Sutcliffe,
chief scientific adviser to the UK's department for
business and trade,
in conversation with Mateen Durrani.
The movement of groups of people and animals
has long fascinated physicists.
And in the latest episode of the Physics
World Stories podcast,
host Andrew Glester
shepherds you through the fascinating world of crowd
dynamics.
His guests are the science writer Philip Ball,
who's written about the physics
of flocking sheep for Physics World,
and the physicist
Alessandro
Corbetta,
whose research on pedestrian flow won him an
Ig Nobel Prize.
That episode is called Flocking Together,
the Physics of Sheep Herding and Pedestrian Flows,
and you can find it on the Physics
World website,
or at your favorite podcast provider.
I'm afraid that's all the time we have
for this week's podcast.
Thanks to Julia Sutcliffe and Mateen Durrani for
a fascinating discussion,
and a special thanks to our producer Fred
Iles.
We'll be back again next week. See you
then.