Hello, and welcome to the Physics World Weekly
podcast.
I'm Hamish Johnston, and I'm joined today by
my colleague,
Matin Durrani. Hi, Matin.
Hello, Hamish. How are you doing? Yeah. I'm
not too bad and I'm getting very excited
because, of course, next week,
the Nobel Prize in Physics is going to
be awarded. And so, the in this podcast,
we're gonna have a little chat about the
Nobel Prize. We're gonna put through some predictions,
which, of course, we will get completely wrong.
And, we'll also talk
about Nobel Prize winners that we've met in
the past. But first, this episode is brought
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So, Matin, first, I thought we'd, we'd go
through some of our predictions
for, next week's Nobel Prize. And and shall
I start off? Well, I mean, you've over
the last few years, we've got this amazing
infographic
that,
contains a list of all down the one
side, it's the list of subject areas that
the prize has been awarded to. And it's
a graphic that kind of maps, year by
year, different areas. So you've been, looking at
that for quite a few years, and it
seems like there's one field that is ripe
for being awarded this year. Yeah. That's right.
I mean, listeners, this is a bit of
numerology.
Basically,
you know, I sort of look at the
numbers, and
I try to decide,
the gaps in years between Nobel Prizes being
awarded
in specific fields.
And according to my, chart, which, you can
see, on the Physics World website, there seems
to be about a 5 year gap on
average
between different disciplines. So you remember, Matin, that
last year, we managed to predict 2 out
of 3 winners
by focusing on those gaps.
There hadn't been a winner in atomic,
molecular, and optical physics
since
2018.
So we predicted that Paul Corkum,
Ferenc Krauss, and Anne Flouillier
would win for their work involving ultra short
laser pulses.
And sure enough, we were right. Well, sort
of right. Krauss and Louwelier
were the winners in 2023.
And unfortunately,
fellow Canadian, Paul Corkum,
was passed over.
Now this year, I'm focusing on the 7
year gap since the last prize was given
for condensed matter physics.
And I think that this field
might just be the award winning one this
year.
But before we talk about some potential condensed
matter winners,
I'm going to go out on a limb
and suggest that it might be 2 years
in a row for atomic, molecular,
and optical physics.
So my first prediction is that Lina Howe
of the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology
is going to win this year's Nobel Prize
for her work on slow light.
This is a a trick, well, it's not
really a trick, it's physics,
Where you can fire light into a gas,
an atomic gas.
And you can slow it right down.
And then you you make a change to
that gas. And you can speed it up
again. So it's almost like you can store
light in a gas. And, you know, that's
an amazing thing. And I think there's some
amazing physics in that. So Lina Hao, that's
my first pick. Because she's she's been on
quite a few of these prediction lists. I
mean, I'm looking back even 10 years ago,
she was on lists,
particularly as a, you know, an outstanding female
researcher and one person who should win.
But, yeah, she's on the list been on
the list for quite a while. It wouldn't
surprise me, but,
over the years, Hamish, I've I've nothing surprises
me about who wins the prize. It's quite
hard to predict, isn't it? You know, some
are nailed so it's only rarely is it
a nailed uncertainty. And I think the Higgs
boson was the 1 year in 2013 that
you were pretty sure that was the one
that was gonna win it. We almost got
it right last year. We picked 2 out
of the 3 winners. But, yeah, it is
very difficult.
And and so, condensed matter, that's my my
next field that I think might be in
for,
for a Nobel Prize. And and this one
is is a slight cheat. I mean, I
think both of these
physicists are, strictly speaking, are condensed matter physicists.
But they tend to work in the field
of optics.
And those are,
John Pendry of Imperial College London
and Federico
Capasso
of Harvard University in the US.
Now John Pendry,
is a pioneer
of the mathematics that describe how metamaterials
manipulate
light
and other electromagnetic
radiation.
And, you know, he's come up with some
some great ideas, like, for an invisibility
cloak,
manipulating light so that something
disappears. And, you know, people sort of pooh
poohed that when he first came out with
the idea. But, you know, these have been
built,
particularly,
operating from microwaves.
So he was a mathematical
pioneer in that field.
And Federico
Capasso
has actually built
lots of metamaterials
that do some amazing things with light.
You know, for example, making flat lenses,
which are really, really useful for modern technology
such as
mobile phones. Because, of course, you want you
want a really high quality
optical system in a mobile phone. And normally,
that
requires a certain thickness. But Capaso and his
team have come up with ways of making
very, very thin lenses using metamaterials.
And they're actually commercializing it as well.
So, yeah, I think,
Capaso and Pendry double bill is another one.
So what about Umatine? Have you,
who who do you think might win this
year? Well, I think Capaso and Pendry is
a very good shout, Hamish. I mean, they've
been on our list for quite a while.
And I I know Capaso is still doing
amazing work.
We we see papers that he's still, publishing.
You know, I'm not quite sure how old
he is, but he's, you know, very, very
active still. So that's a good shout.
The other topic that we thought Hamish that
was quite likely might win is, you know,
this whole area of twisted
Oh, yeah. That's a good one for condensed
matter as well. So that is condensed matter.
So that's the idea. You have these very
thin carbon sheets,
but you you have 2 layers, but they're
misaligned in terms of their molecular structure by
a certain angle.
And, that was one of our breakthroughs of
the year. And I think was it 2018?
You basically got this new platform for exploring
all sorts of exciting condensed matter physics.
And the person who led that work was
also MIT, and that's, Pablo Gerilo Herrero. Hope
I've got his name right,
who has sort of stacked these sheets together
and done a lot of the great work
in that area. So that's,
if that wins, that's quite unusual because that's
quite recent work. And it's not always that
the Nobel Prize goes to work that's done
in the last couple of years, but you
never know that could be in with a
shout. But I know from, your chats that
you've had with the people who award the
prizes, you know, we know that they do
it very rigorously, and often prizes get nominated,
numerous times. And I think that plays a
a role in which prizes get awarded. And
sometimes,
you know, people like Peter Higgs had to
wait sort of 50 years before, his prize
from the work he originally did. So
that might be in with a shout, perhaps
less of a shout because it's quite recent
only because of that. But certainly twisted Graphene
is, yeah, one area to keep an eye
on. Well, that's enough about the future, Hamish.
Over the years, me and you and the
rest of the physics world team have met
all sorts of Nobel Prize winning physicists.
So you've got a story up your sleeve
about about Bert
Brockhouse. Do you wanna remind people who
Bert Brockhouse was? He's a Canadian, wasn't he?
Yeah. That's right. So so Bert Brockhouse,
I think was the first Nobel Laureate
that I ever met, and this was years
before
I joined Physics World.
And, you know, in in the run up
to every Nobel Prize, actually,
I think I I think back to that
day. It was in 1994.
And, I had just woken up in Hamilton,
Ontario, which is sort of a, an industrial
city,
just outside of Toronto. And the CBC News
came on.
And the announcement was that Bert Brakhos had
just won the Nobel Prize for Physics.
And at the time, I was doing a
PhD at McMaster University. And Brakhos was a
professor emeritus
at McMaster.
And so there was an instant connection. And
I was very excited because, you know, I
was I was about to go into the
physics department. And I knew that,
you know, that there would be joyous mayhem
when I got there. But I also had
a bit of a a bit more of
a personal connection,
I would say. Because a few years earlier,
I had spent
some time,
at the Chalk River,
laboratories,
sort of a national laboratory
in Canada
in the neutron is it the neutron physics
branch or the neutron science branch? I can't
quite remember the name. But that branch was
founded
by Bert Brockhouse. And he won
the, 1994
Nobel Prize for his work on,
inelastic neutron scattering. So he was a pioneer
in using neutrons to study the dynamics
of solid materials, essentially bouncing neutrons
off atoms
and working out their vibrational modes.
That's what, that's what Brakhos did.
And that was a fantastic day. Yet,
I remember going into the university,
and the physics department. And just as I
came in,
Jules Carbot, who is,
unfortunately, he's since passed away, but a theoretical
physicist who studied superconductivity
came skipping down the hall.
And, as I passed him, he punched the
air And he said, Bert Brackhaus,
son of a gun.
And this this is my this is my
memory of walking into the physics department. And
people were really, really happy about it. Brackhaus
was the first,
Nobel Prize winner
associated
with McMaster University in Amatine. You've been to
the University of Bristol and Cambridge, which, you
know, has no no shortage of of Nobel
laureates. But this was the first
McMaster,
Nobel laureate. So everybody was very happy. And
there were endless celebrations.
And,
it was very nice. I remember meeting Brockhouse
and discovering
that he lived in this in one of
my favorite areas of Hamilton, this sort of
semi rural neighborhood,
on the Niagara Escarpment. So he had a
chat about that.
And,
yeah, it was a it was a lovely
it was a really lovely day. And so
every October,
I think back to that day. And, you
know, I've got some nice thoughts
about that. So, yeah, that's, I I've written,
something about that for the for the website.
So I'll have a look at that. So
what about you, Matin? You've had, some encounters
with Nobel Prize winners as well. Well, I
had an incident a bit like yours. It
was early 9 I think 91, actually, when
I was at the, Cavendish Laboratory, which was
the department of physics at Cambridge. And the
work I was involved in was in soft
matter physics. And that was the year when
Pierre Gilles de Jean, the the, Frenchman,
won the Nobel Prize that year. And I
remember,
you know, there was great, celebration. He wasn't
at the Cavendish Laboratory, but the Cavendish had
a real expertise in soft matter physics. And
there was a real delight that this field
of physics that perhaps had gone under the
radar was being recognized by the award of
a prize. And I remember that year, you
know,
de Gein had done a lot of work
with Sam Edwards at Cambridge, and he didn't
win the prize that year. But there was
no hard feelings. It was just a feeling
that really,
glad that that field had been recognized by
the Nobel committee. But I think, actually, correct
me if I'm wrong, Hamish, I think that
was the last
time that only one person won the Nobel
Prize for Physics Oh, it could be. Yeah.
Now it's very much routinely shared with people.
And,
you know, that was, you know, an unusual
time, because it just went to him. And
that that's very much it's 2 or 3
people share it routinely.
Normally, it is. Yeah. It's funny. You've just
you've mentioned Degen,
and a memory of Degen has come back
into my mind. And it was at McMaster,
when I was doing my p h PhD
at McMaster.
DeJenne was,
invited,
to the university to speak.
And he gave a seminar
for undergraduate
students. This was after he'd won the Nobel
Prize, so he was very famous.
And he gave a a seminar for undergraduate
students. But he was so desperate for a
cigarette.
And back in those days,
you know, McMaster was a was a you
couldn't smoke inside in 91 at McMaster University.
And so
the
the seminar was held outside. It was a
beautiful day.
And, it was held outside under a tree.
And there was DeJene standing there smoking a
cigarette
with Really? Undergraduates
gathered. He was a very heavy smoker. Gathered
around him. Yeah. So it's yeah. I, yeah.
That that one's just popped.
That one's just popped into my head.
Yeah. I mean, it's funny, you know, thinking
about, you know, we're I think we're so
privileged, if I can say that, at Physics
World that we do get to meet
these people.
And,
another Nobel Prize winner that I I really
enjoyed
meeting and interviewing is Frank Wilczak,
the American,
theoretical physicist who won for his work, on
the strong force.
But the the the interesting thing about that
encounter
is that,
I interviewed him at,
the March meeting,
of the American Physical Society. And it was
an anniversary.
I think it was in some important anniversary
of the, discovery of high temperature superconductivity.
And so we talked about superconductivity.
And that's what Frank Wilczek was really interested
in at the time.
You know, he had, he'd done his work
on the strong force. And now he was
talking about superconductivity
and how the mathematics of superconductivity
can be used to understand other,
aspects of physics.
And, you know, he's he's done some great
work on time crystals, hasn't he?
Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong, Hamish. I
think it was actually the 2011
meeting, which was the centenary of the discovery
of superconductivity.
But obviously Okay. That included,
but not to include high temperature work as
well. It it was actually it was 2011,
Mateen. Yeah. You're right.
And but but the thing is, I I
was really chuffed,
with Frank, if I can call him that.
Because
4 years later, I was at the Royal
Society in London.
And I was there for a meeting about,
Maxwell and Maxwell's equations.
And,
it we you know, in the coffee break,
we were everybody there was looking at the
portraits. I don't know if you've ever been
to the Royal Society.
It's full of portraits
of all the famous, you know, fellows down
the down the ages. So, you know, you've
got Benjamin Franklin
and Faraday and, you know, all these people.
And,
there's there's one portrait that had a sort
of a saucy
caption with with some innuendo.
And, you know, I remember sort of chuckling,
about it with Frank Wilczek. And he looked
at me. And he said, oh, I know
you. We've met somewhere, haven't we? So you
actually knew a Nobel laureate knew you, actually.
A Nobel laureate actually knew me. Yes. So
that's, yeah.
Another claim to fame with, with Nobel laureate.
Well, I can do one better than that,
Hamish. Because actually, when I was at the,
Cavendish Laboratory in the early nineties, I did
my PhD then. I actually went on to
do a post doc. And one of the
people in the department was Brian Josephson, who
is,
you know, famously won the Nobel Prize in
1973.
He was very young, 33. In fact, he
won it for work on, you know, superconductivity
and quantum tunneling that he'd done much earlier
when he was in early twenties.
And when I was there in the department,
he was just a regular member of staff.
And I think he was assigned to me
to do a kind of,
like a sort of what do you call
it? I'm not like a management,
check-in, like a as a as a check-in
with the staff, how they were doing, which
just didn't seem comfortably to him at all.
I don't think he was he wasn't the
sort of person who did, you know, annual
appraisals or that kind of thing. But I
remember sitting in a room with Brian Jodson.
I'm not quite sure he knew who he
knew I was.
And in fact, I used to when I
lived in Cambridge,
I lived in a part of Cambridge called
Newnham, which was a really nice part on
the southeast of the city.
And,
every twice a week, I think, once, twice
a week, there used to be this fish
and chip van would roll up. And I
remember I used to go for a run,
and I'd have this 5 pound note in
my hand. And afterwards, I'd queue up to
get
cod and chips, whatever it was. And one
of the people always in the queue was
Brian Josephson. And I don't think people knew
who he was because he was quite a
sort of distinctive character.
He had this curly black hair, glasses. He
had his cycle helmet on and his
trousers with bicycle clips. And he'd be standing
there. And I don't think anybody knew who
he was and I I I knew him,
from the department. So there was a very
ordinary,
scene with this eminent Nobel Prize winning physicist
going around,
in in that department. And over the years,
you know, he's, he's I I dare to
say, can I call him a friend of
physics world? He's very sort of helpful on
various matters if he
and he certainly reads Physics World. And,
unfortunately, Margaret Carrias, our colleague, is not here,
but she, received a couple of or an
email from him about the physics of how
to turn a mattress. And I can't remember
the details of it, but certainly,
it sounds
we have to get Margaret on the podcast
another time for her to explain that story
about Brian Joseph and send you an email
about, you know, the physics of the symmetry
of turning a mattress, how to do it
in the most efficient way,
and how to do it, you know, quickly
as quickly as possible. So, yeah. I've actually
had a appraisal from Brian Josephson. How about
that? Wow. Claims of fame.
Can't beat that. Yeah. I've I mean, I
have worked with with Nobel laureates. I I
went to the Lindau meeting
once. I think you've been to the Lindau
meeting several times. That's a meeting on a
beautiful lake in Germany
where,
Nobel Prize winners are invited,
and they speak to, well, young people, I
suppose, from all over the world.
And I was very fortunate 1 year
to,
be asked to organize a seminar
where, the panelists were Nobel Prize,
winners.
And I chose
I chose to look at immigration
and Nobel Prize winners because
and I believe we have an infographic on
Physics World to back this up. A huge
number of of Nobel Laureates in Physics were
immigrants
either before or after
they, won their prizes. You know, you you
you've got people who fled Nazi Germany, for
example,
who are Nobel Prize winners or then won
Nobel Prizes.
Or, you know, you have people who
who moved to different countries and did their
Nobel Prize winning,
work as an immigrant.
And so it was a very timely topic
at the time. I think it was around
Brexit.
Yeah. The time of the time of Brexit,
in the UK where immigration was a very
hot topic.
And I really I really enjoyed that. I
mean, there were
you can read about it on the Physics
World website.
I think I had 4 Nobel Prize winners.
I had absolutely no problem getting people to
talk about this.
You know,
I think a few of the the Nobel
Prize winners who took part were actually immigrants
themselves. People were very keen to talk about
it. So that was a very rewarding experience.
I really enjoyed that. Yeah. Yeah. I remember
there was one Nobel,
Linzhou event. I think it was, a session
chaired by our former colleague, Matthew Chalmers, who
currently was, until recently, the editor of Sir
and Courier. And I know he, did a
similar panel debate. And I remember watching it.
I think either when I was there or
I watched it online, and it was certainly
really difficult for him because the panel had
some Nobel laureates on it, and they're they're
kind of a law unto themselves.
And it was I found it I don't
know if you have this experience, Hamish. I
think Matthew found it very hard to keep
those laureates on track. Some of them were
just sort of talking on stage while this
panel debate was going to go on because
I think they felt maybe if you're a
Nobel Laureate, you're kind of above the law
where you can kind of do what you
like. You're maybe sort of used to, you
know, having everything your own way. And I
I remember thinking it must have been a
very difficult job for him to keep them
on track and keep them sort of respectful
of the rules of the panel debate. But,
you know, certainly that Nobel laureate Nobel Prize
meeting in Lindau is very unusual. It's kind
of like a I'm trying to analogy, I
suppose it's a bit like a Woodstock for
Nobel laureate. Like a music festival. And the
reason everyone is there is to see these
eminent artists, and the artists are the Nobel
laureates. And, they're kind of wandering around with
sort
of, you know, students of,
dare I say, falling students sort of attracted
to them. And I and I had an
experience myself, Hamish, which,
I've told you the story several times
where I'd arranged to I was there in
it was 2010, and I'd arranged to talk
to Robert Laughlin who won the 1998
Nobel Prize for Physics for his condensed matter
work. And
he had a new book out about the
future of energy and coal, and I was
there and I'd arranged to have a talk
to him in a in a private room
to do an interview.
And after about 20 minutes, all was going
quite well, but then, someone barged in. 1
of the conference officials barged in. You know,
there'd been an overbooking and, you know, we
were turfed out. And the fact that I
was with a Nobel Laureate didn't sort of
make any difference. We had to reconvene. So
this interview kind of got cut short and
then we reconvened on the terrace because, as
you remember, Hamish, it's on the lovely
banks of the Lake Constance, and it's beautiful
with lakes and the mountains in the distance,
and, it's a lovely setting. And so we
reconvene on this outside table. But like I
said before,
this whole event, the Nobel laureates, everyone knows
who they are. And before I knew what
was going on,
kinda one student had joined with us, and
then there was another student, and then a
third and a fourth. And before I knew
what was going on, this one to one
interview that was meant to be in private
had just turned into a kind of press
conference
where Robert Loughlin was holding court with all
these students, and they
the whole thing was rather awkward, and I
ended up sort of sidling into the background
while he held forth, held court with all
these students. You know, he was in his
element. And,
you know, they get invited to this meeting,
and they're really the stars of the show.
And that that of course, they are. And,
the students obviously want to sort of brush
up with this genius and sort of actually
feel see 1 in the flesh. And it's
it's quite an unusual experience because the Nobel
laureates really are celebrities. And I don't know.
Your life really must get turned upside down
when you you win one of these prizes.
It's quite an incredible thing. It's the one
one feat that,
you know, you can win in physics that
really does transform your life.
Yeah. Well, what what's it? It's called Nobelitis,
isn't it? Where,
you know, you
a laureate sort of gets swept away by
the fame
and, maybe starts commenting on on areas of
of life and society and science that they
they don't really know much about. I mean,
I have to say, I have never met,
a Nobel laureate who suffered
from noblitis.
All of them
were very grounded and lovely people to chat
to and very unassuming.
So I think I think noblitis is probably
a fairly rare
affliction.
So,
well, I I mean, I I could go
on forever
about Nobel Prize winners that, that I've met
and interviewed.
But what what about you, Matin? Any, would
you would you like to take the last
slot of the podcast? Well, I suppose the
most difficult one that I had to do
was Steven Weinberg. I remember
it was 2003, and I've been invited to
CERN
to,
see how plans were developing for the the
Large Hadron Collider, which was then being built.
And I think Steven Weinberg was there, been
invited to give a talk. And in the
break in the schedule, he'd arranged to talk
to me
as a member of the press. And so
we met in a hotel lobby in Geneva
and started doing this interview. And, you know,
he was very lovely person, as you say,
Nobel laureates. But honestly, I felt
so so out of my depth, you know,
out of all the people you might meet,
this was a theorist who,
you know, sort of several orders of magnitude
more intelligent, you know, and it was an
incredible job to sort of reign him in.
He was very charming and kind, but it
was sort of it's a very sort of
asymmetric process when you interview Nobel laureate because
they they know so much and
and and you feel even your questions that
you ask
aren't even sensible. You know, it's just very
odd because they know so much, and
and it's and it can be quite, it's
quite difficult because you're, a, you're trying to
sort of keep abreast of what they're telling
you in real time. They're deluging
deluging you with information that, you know, they've
been thinking about for 50 years.
And then you're trying to sort of think
up your next question,
without looking too stupid. And,
sadly, the Dictaphone that I recorded the meeting
on, we didn't have sort of mobile devices
as we do now, digital devices,
an old fashioned analog tape. I'm not quite
sure where it is, and we kinda lost
it in one of our many moves of
physics world over the years. But the only
thing I can remember, Hamish, was that, you
know, he we were sitting there and suddenly,
he broke off midstream and sort of led
forward onto the table in front of us.
And there was a bowl of peanuts and
started eating these peanuts. And then he started
asking me whether I like peanuts, and it
was really odd. The only thing I can
remember is, isn't it stupid? Are all these
things he was telling me? The only thing
I can remember is, do you like nuts
is what he said to me. And in
my family at home, it's kind of this
catchphrase. Do you like nuts has become sort
of gone down in history. And isn't it
silly? Like, of all the things that he
told me, the only thing I can remember
is Steven Weinberg asking whether I like peanuts.
But, you know, he was,
you know, obviously,
very talented person and, you know, fully deserving
of the prize. And,
you know, so let's see who wins this
year. I'm sure whoever it is Hamish, their
lives will be turned upside down and be,
you know, transformed. And
even in 2018, when Donna Strickland, the Canadian
your Canadian compatriot won the Nobel Prize Who
who, is a graduate of McMaster University
on the website and the 2nd Nobel Laureate
associated? It. Absolutely lovely person. And and I
know her life has been sort of transformed,
and you kind of need a whole
entourage of people to sort of run your
schedule because you're suddenly in demand.
So let's see who win wins the prize
this year.
Remind me what were your suggestions again. You
think Capaso and Henry,
Lena Howe? Henry, Lena Howe. And I went
for twisted Graphene. So,
let's see who wins next week. Yeah. I
mean, I really hope it's somebody that we
know,
you know, a friend of physics world. Wouldn't
that be great if, you know, somebody
we know wins? But we have absolutely no
insight
into who's going to win next week. So,
may the best physicist win. Well, as we
always say, you know, it takes 50 years
before the archives are opened up. And so
we will have to wait until 2074,
which I don't think would be around then,
Hamish, to find out the reasons why the
prize was awarded this year. They're very careful
not to sort of release details until that
50 year rule has passed. So but we
will certainly find out on Tuesday,
8th October I believe so. 2024 at 10:45
UK time. UK time. And let's hope there's
not an embarrassing thing like there was with
the chemistry prize last year where, Oh, was
it leaked? It was leaked, wasn't it? That
that was a first, I think. Yeah. Yeah.
Very exciting.
But, yeah, stay tuned to Physics World, on
8th October.
We'll have, we'll have an article out within
minutes.
That's our, tradition.
So you can find out out all about
the Nobel Laureate or Laureate,
for 2024
at Physics World.
Okay. Thanks, Matin. Thanks, Hamish.
I'm afraid that's all the time we have
for this week's podcast.
Thanks again to Matin
and also
to Fred Iles, our producer.
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