Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly
podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston.
This episode explores how quantum technologies
have the potential
to revolutionize
medicine.
First up, we hear from a professor of
medical imaging and psychology
who uses quantum sensors
to study brain development in children.
And we also hear from the managing director
of the company that's created the technology she
uses.
A bit later on, I chat with a
venture capitalist
who funds companies that develop
quantum technologies for Madison.
But first, Physics World is brought to you
by IOP Publishing,
which is pleased to announce that the journal
Progress in Energy
is extending its article remit
and now accepts original research.
This means that you can publish your groundbreaking
research
alongside
some of our most impactful
and cited reviews on energy.
PRGE
is a high impact,
multidisciplinary
journal focusing on a wide range of issues
related to the global energy transition.
We invite you to publish with us and
share your work with a global audience.
You can find the journal at IOP Science.
Earlier this year, I found myself in the
heart of the city of London
in a gleaming skyscraper
hosting the commercializing
quantum conference.
Organized by economist
impact
the event brought together people from quantum technology
companies and their customers
real and imagined.
While much of the focus was on quantum
computing
there was also lots of talk about quantum
sensors.
Medicine is an important
early application of quantum sensors,
and delegates were treated to a fascinating
presentation
by Margo Taylor,
who is director
of functional
neuroimaging
at the Hospital For Sick Children
in Toronto.
She uses special helmets
adorned with quantum sensors
to do
magnetoencephalography
studies of the brain development
of children.
I caught up with Margo after her presentation
along with co speaker David
Wolger,
who is managing director of UK based
Circa Magnetics,
the company that makes the helmets.
We spoke in a quiet corner of the
conference center, but you will hear some enthusiastic
delegates in the background.
Here is that conversation.
So, Morgo, what is magnetoencephalography,
and how is it used in medicine?
So
magnetoencephalography
or MEG
is used to look at brain function,
and it is the probably the most sensitive
measure, the most sensitive means we have of
assessing brain function. There are other techniques for
looking at brain function, but MEG gives us
amazing temporal resolution
as well as well as very good spatial
resolution.
And it it's very valuable.
And and when you say brain function, it's
specifically looking at electrical activity?
Yes. Yes. So it doesn't give us any
information about the structure of the brain, but
about the function of the brain.
And the disorders
that I'm interested in are disorders of brain
function,
and they rarely are
disorders of brain structure. So you're measuring electrical
signals. Does that mean that the brain is,
electrical
signals.
Does that mean that the brain is, essentially
an electrical device? Yeah. They are hugely complex,
electrical device. Well, it's
electrochemical,
but we are measuring the electrical signals that
are the product
of the electrochemical
reactions in the brain. When you say that
you're not looking at structure, does that mean
that you get, just an overall
signal from the brain, or can you actually
get some structural information? Do you know where
that signal's coming from? We usually get a
structural MRI as well, and then we have
very good source localization
approaches
so that we can tell where exactly where
in the brain those different signals are arising
and how they are connecting with each other
and the interactions
amongst different brain regions and the timing of
that interaction.
So, Margo, why does Quantum MEG make it
easier to do brain scans on children?
Because the the quantum technology
is now wearable because of the OPM systems,
the optically pumped magnetometers,
and therefore, they can be put into a
helmet that the child can wear. And so
if the child is wearing a helmet, there
is allowed movement because the helmet moves with
the child, and so we're able to actually
record brain signals in the very young children
because they can move. They can sit on
their parents' lap. They don't have to be
lying perfectly still. And, also, the other thing,
you said that cryogenic, the classic MEG,
is, a one size fits all, typically. So
it's designed for an adult male head. And
if you put in a small child, they're
a long ways away from the sensors. And
so with the OPMs,
they're in a helmet that can be a
different sized helmet for different sized head.
And so we have little tiny helmets up
to bigger helmets. And so the sensors are
much closer to the child's head. The child
can be sitting on the parent's lap. Child
can move. And it's just
a game changer in terms of recording
signals in little children. I see. And and
one thing that I wanted to ask you
is when when I was watching your talk,
I I saw the helmet,
you know, on various children's heads. And I
thought of when I wear my bicycle helmet,
it's, you know, it sort of wobbles around
a bit. Does does the helmet have to
be very tight on their head so it
doesn't wobble?
Yes. It needs to be reasonably well,
positioned.
And so we have, nice soft linings inside.
We have several layers of lining depending on
the child's
head so that even though we have the
right helmet size for the child's head, we
can also put in, like, an an extra
thin layer just to make sure it fits
nicely, and we have a little chinstrap, a
little cloth chinstrap just to keep it from
falling off. I see. And and do do
do you ask the children to to stay
still or are they free to to move
around, or, or, you know, would you like
would you like them to stay as still
as possible? We we like them to stay
reasonably still. And in some,
of the newer,
rooms that are used for OPMs,
they don't need to stay as still, but
the room that we have, they need to
stay reasonably still. So, Margo, you're you're currently
leading a study at SickKids
that's using Quantum MEG,
that's using a Quantum MEG system from the
UK's Circa Magnetics.
Can you describe the study that you're
doing? Sure. We are looking at
early brain function in children with and without
autism.
And so autism is usually diagnosed by about
3 years of age, and the youngest is
usually three years of age, although sometimes it's
not diagnosed till later.
But if a child could be diagnosed or
detected to have autism earlier, then interventions could
start earlier.
And interventions are very effective,
at ameliorating,
some of the symptoms.
And so we're looking at children with and
without autism, but including children that have a
high likelihood
of developing autism to see if we can
get brain signals that will predict that whether
they will go on to get a diagnosis
or not.
I see. And and in your talk today,
you showed some slides with,
data showing signals from children's brains and how
respond to,
faces.
Can you talk a bit about that? How
how how do those responses how do they
look different,
using MEG from, you know, maybe somebody who
might be developing autism to somebody who doesn't
have it?
We don't have those data yet because we're
looking at the children who have a high
likelihood of autism, but we don't know yet.
So we're we have to wait till they
grow up and for another year or so
to see if they get a diagnosis.
For the children who do have a diagnosis
already of autism, it seems like the responses
are not quite typical, but we haven't fully
analyzed those data. And so we think that
there is a signal there that we'll be
able to report in the foreseeable future.
But we're we only have tested 32 children
with autism so far, and we'd like to
get a a bit more,
data before we publish it. I see. So,
Margo, are you able to share any preliminary
results with us at the moment? Or have
you published,
papers based on this data yet?
Not yet. No. Sorry. We're still analyzing data.
We're seeing beautiful,
age related changes in our young in our
young typically developing children, because we had to,
of course,
establish what
happens in typical children before we could compare
it to children with autism or high likelihood
of autism. Because nobody has been able to
do these studies before because of this technology.
We're the sort of the first to have
these studies, so we have to establish
the fundamental, the foundational datasets.
And those will be able to publish very
shortly.
I see. Okay. Well, looking forward to seeing
those. Beyond this study that you're doing on
autism, are are you using the MEG system
for for anything else at the moment at
Sick Kids?
So the OPM system, we're also,
setting up studies, to look at children with
epilepsy to compare with the cryogenic and other
imaging technologies with colleagues.
We're also looking at, children who have a
known genetic disorder
to see if they also have brain signals
that predict whether they go on to
experience a neurodevelopmental
disorder. And then we're also looking at children
who are born to parents with HIV,
mothers with HIV,
and to see if we can get an
indication of what is happening in their brains,
that may affect their later development.
Okay.
Well, that's great. Thanks. We're also joined by
David Wilger of Circumagnetics,
which made the the the helmet system
that Margo uses. David, can you can you
just give us a brief description of the
technology and how it works? So our technology
uses optically pump magnetometers.
They are very sensitive to magnetic fields. Effectively,
we're sensing magnetic fields
3,500
times
lower than the Earth's magnetic field. To enable
us to do that, we actually need to
shield against the Earth's magnetic field, so we
do this in a shielded environment with both
active and passive shielding,
and we're then able to
measure the magnetic fields from the brain. So
when a neuron fires,
you get an electrical field, and therefore you
get a corresponding
magnetic field.
To understand functionally what's going on in that
area. And and David, are there any other
applications for this technology beyond, you know, the
the helmets and and what Margo is doing?
So, there's a vast number of applications within
brain health.
So, for example, we're working with a team
in Oxford at the moment. We're looking at
dementia studies. So, at the other end of
the life,
cycle,
we're actually looking at how you can identify
potentially dementia much earlier, and therefore, how you
could potentially treat it with drugs or other
interventions
earlier.
Outside brain health though, there's a number of
groups who are using this quantum technology for
other areas of medical science. So one group
in Arkansas
are actually looking at fetal imaging
in,
during pregnancy so that they can actually see
much more clearly than has previously been possible.
There's also another group in London that are
looking at spinal imaging using the, optically pump
magnetometers.
So there's a vast range of
medical imaging that can be done with these
sensors.
On a wider level,
concussion is also something that
potentially you can look at using these sensors.
So for sports injury
or potentially
military injuries,
there's a potential use again for the sensors
in brain imaging.
And and David, what about non medical applications?
I mean, it sounds there's enough medical applications
keep you busy for a very long time,
but have you looked at non medical applications?
So CIRCA haven't specifically.
CIRCA are very much a medical imaging company,
but I am very aware of other applications
for imaging, for example, car batteries. So this
has a real potential to be a big
market.
When they make car batteries,
it's a chemistry that goes into the cells.
If you can actually image those during the
production process,
you can effectively optimize that production process
during the, production
cycle,
and therefore reduce your costs of battery production,
which has a real
potential benefit for use in electric cars and
other applications.
And and David, during your talk, you and
Margo spoke together here at this Commercializing
Quantum
Conference.
I mean, one thing about this this conference
is that it looks towards the future,
and there's a lot of, you know, sort
of great plans
being talked about. But one thing that really
struck me when you spoke is that you
said the the company was founded in 2020.
Did I get that right? Yes. And that
you've had, what, a positive cash flow ever
every year since. Is that right? So you're
actually
you're doing things. You're making products. You're selling
them, which, you know, is is that fairly
unique for a quantum company?
I believe it's unique for a quantum company.
I'm obviously not aware of all the quantum
companies,
accounts, but
we are in a good position in that
we've been able to deliver our initial systems
to the research Right. Market
and actually
deliver them for revenue, and we have made
profit every year since we started trading. We
have then reinvested that profit
back into further development. So for example, looking
at scanning 2 people at once,
looking
at other techniques so that we can continue
to develop the product, and most importantly,
for us, looking at the medical device approval.
At the moment, our system is only sold
to research institutes.
We want to get, clinical approval
in order to enable us to have the
biggest societal impact
for the product. We we believe if the
product was available in every hospital, every doctor
surgery, it could have some real
big societal impact across the lifespan from scanning
young children to scanning older people in the
twilight years.
Well, that's great. Thanks, David. Thanks for for
filling us in on that. And, Margo, thanks
for coming on the podcast as well. Oh,
it was a pleasure talking with you. Thank
you.
CIRCA is a pioneer in the medical application
of quantum technology.
And no doubt, many companies around the world
would want to emulate its success.
While at the conference, I caught up with
Stuart Nicholl,
who is chief investment officer at Quantum Exponential,
a UK based company that invests in quantum
startups.
We chatted about the medical sector,
and in particular,
about a company that is making a crucial
eye imaging technology
more accessible.
So Stuart,
Quantum Exponential is an investor in quantum technologies.
Do you see medicine
as an important
application
for quantum tech?
Yeah. Absolutely. I guess it's the use case
that we we hope
most quantum will be, geared towards, albeit
the current needs of defense,
and environmental protection, you know,
will mean it's used in those ways as
well. I see. Okay.
You've got a company called Cyloton. Have I
said that right? Cyloton. Cyloton. I'm I'm My
apologies.
In your portfolio, and it's developing technology for
medicine. Can you tell us about that company?
Yeah.
So they, they've developed based in Bristol, they've
developed, photonic integrated chip,
which they are using to
shrink
the
eye
measurement monitoring
soft system that you would typically
have in a hospital or an optician to
look at
in the initial use case of macular degeneration.
So they've been able to basically, they can
turn that into
a rugged,
portable
unit, so people can hopefully
monitor their eye health better, which is very
important, in something like macular degeneration
because as it begins to degrade or it
changes,
form,
you're you're much more likely to save
the eyesight or reduce its decline, and and
that has, obviously, significant benefits to the patient,
but also a lot
cheaper, for the health service as well. And
and we have covered that company, on Physics
World. And so in the notes for this
podcast,
I'll, I'll mention
Actually, I think it was a podcast interview
as well. But I'll mention that in the
notes.
And and, Stuart, beyond medicine, what else is
the company,
interested in?
Yeah. So we we we have a focus
on investing in quantum technology, but we take
that broad view of that, and that could
even include,
the supply chain for quantum, I think, is
is pretty important as well.
But currently, we have 7 investments. One's in
quantum secure encryption,
3, including a silicon, are in sensors, and
the further 3
are in quantum compute. I see. And you're
here at the Commercializing
Quantum Conference in
London.
Has anything new caught your eye? You you've
been in the sessions. I've seen you there.
Is there anything interesting that you've seen, so
far?
I think there's there's there's general optimism that
we are actually getting
closer to
commercially
sold,
and useful,
devices and equipments, and then my personal view
is that then the software will will build
on top of that.
So that's great. So it's it's I think
it's coming sooner than society realizes it is,
and it will have significant advantages
for us across, you know, all sectors, really.
And and Stuart, earlier I was talking, to
Margo Taylor and David Woolger about,
magnetometry,
quantum sensing,
and, you you know, how successful CIRCA has
been.
But, you you you've just mentioned to me
that, there's a shortage of these sensors.
Can can you talk a bit about that
and how that could be resolved? Yeah. I
think in general, there's a need to make
the quantum supply chain more robust,
and there is a magnetometer
sensors can do can, you know,
achieve an awful lot of different things, but
there isn't really the supply chain globally
available for that at the moment. So we're
we are actively looking as an investment company
at others
basically creating a better production line for them.
Is that a a general issue in quantum
where I suppose there's lots of great ideas
about technology,
but sometimes getting somebody to actually make it
in a in quantities that are required for
commercial applications
can be a problem. And I'm guessing that's
an opportunity for people like you.
It is. Yeah. I mean, these these
need government assistance as well to create the
kind of facilities that you need to in
order then to produce the pieces of equipment
at the right, you know, size,
cost, and,
a level of
sophistication.
But, yeah, something something we're interested in. And
and that needs to start now because you
don't want to
get to the point where you're ready for
a commercial rollout, but then there's no way
of creating the devices. Or if they are,
they they turn out faulty and people get
disappointed in them. Well, that's great. Thanks for
taking the time to speak to me, Stuart.
Pleasure.
I'm afraid that's all the time we have
for this week's podcast. Thanks to Margo Taylor,
David Wilgar, and Stuart Nickel for joining me
today. And a special thanks to our producer,
Fred Iles.
We'll be back again next week when our
guest is Christophe Roussel,
who is a condensed matter physicist who spent
many years at IBM's lab in Zurich.
Roussel is a past president of the European
Physical Society,
and he talks about the grand challenges
facing Europe's physicists
over the next 25 years.
And looking a bit further into the future,
on the 29th August, I'm in conversation with
Elena Blachina
who is chief scientific
officer at Equal One.
The Irish company has created
hybrid quantum classical chips and was this year's
winner of the Institute of Physics
Quantum Business Innovation
and Growth Prize or QBIG prize.
So tune in for both of those conversations
over the next few weeks.