Hello and welcome to the Physics world Weekly
podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston.
This week, I'm in
conversation with the head of Physics.
At zap
energy, which is developing a small scale
fusion technology
that doesn't rely on magnets,
cryo
or high powered lasers.
This episode also features an interview with theoretical
physicist and author
Claudia Dora,
who talks about her new popular science book,
the beauty of falling,
And about her career in research.
We'd like to thank f vacuum for supporting
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Nuclear fusion could be used to generate energy
with no direct emissions of greenhouse gases.
However, building a practical
fusion reactor remains a formidable
engineering challenge.
Today,
international
collaborations and small companies alike, are pursuing different
routes to fusion.
Z energy is a Us based company that
aims to develop a system that uses the
zed pinch effect to con confined and compress
a plasma to the point that fusion occurs.
To talk about Zap energy, I'm joined down
the line from Seattle
by Derek Sutherland,
who is head of physics
for the company's
fu q prototype
fusion reactor. Hi, Derek. Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for having me. Very happy to be
here. So, Tar, Zap energy aims to produce
fusion energy using no magnets,
and I'm guessing that zed pinch effect. Is
involved there. Can you can you describe how
that would work?
Sure. So the Z bench is a form
of magnetic confinement infusion, which might be counterintuitive
since we say we use no magnets.
And in fact, what we do instead is
that instead of putting current electric current in
the coils around the plasma,
we put the current in the pla itself.
To And so when you think about the
direction of the current, we flow it in
the z direction in a cylindrical corded system.
And that produces a magnetic field in the
plasma that's con combining and it pinch it.
And so that's where you get the the
term z pinch.
It's current flowing in the plasma that produces
the magnetic fields for confinement.
I see. And so so is that, like,
I mean, I suppose there's lots of sort
of self focusing effects that occur in physics.
Is this an example of a sort of
a self. Focusing a fact where the plasma
interacts with itself and its magnetic field and
and sort of benches and and gives you
a high density.
Yeah. Exactly right. It's a it's a form
of self organization and self focusing. And then
1 of the original papers for z pensions
refer to them as self focusing streams. A
plasma.
Okay. And what what are the benefits of
this design over other schemes? I mean, I'm
guessing 1 of the the big benefits is
that you you don't have magnets,
which can be very difficult to operate, particularly
at very high magnetic fields.
Yeah. So there there are a few benefits
of of the z pension. Mainly, it's driven
by just the simplicity
of designing 1 of these systems to... Rate
in the real world. And so without having
those magnets, which are typically super
such as in Tok x stellar or more
the main line approaches.
Since you're using the plasma itself to produce
the magnetic fields, You don't have to protect
the plasma from high energy neutrons since it's
the thing that's making them.
And so with no magnets, you don't have
to have as much shielding and it makes
your system more compact.
But also, we don't have any cryo to
call those. Magnets either to a super conducting
state, and we're also not using any high
powerful lasers like an inertial confinement,
so it's a really compact simple approach to
fusion that has a lot of benefits long
term.
I see. And you you mentioned earlier sort
of the original side scientific papers
about this
phenomenon.
Who who originally developed this idea? Was it
was it scientific spun out of the University
research lab? Or was it created outside of
academia?
Yes. So the Z bench has been around
for a very long time, and it was
actually 1 of the very first fusion concepts
ever
a pursued in the lab.
But 1 challenge that was ran into was
that the traditional z pinch, meaning 1 that
isn't flowing
is Mh d unstable. And what that means
is that the plasma
exhibits these very fast growing insta abilities that
tend to make it fall apart.
And so our insight and this was originally
developed at the University of Washington and Seattle
is this concept of shared flow
stabilization.
And what it's stabilizing is specifically the z
bench that otherwise would be unstable.
So this was invented by professor Y Sc
luck at University of Washington,
and he published the original stability paper in
the mid nineties.
And that was really developed at the university
until the 20 tens, which then spun out
into Zap energy with the help of Department
of Energy.
I see. And and so what at what
stage
are you in developing this technology, Derek?
Have you seen evidence of fusion within your
your plasma? Or are you still at the
point where you're trying to
increase the density of your plasma and increase
the temperature of your plasma, so that at
some point,
those are high enough to to, you know,
for your
nuclei to start fusing together.
Yeah. So we have seen extensive evidence of
fusion occurring,
on every... Nearly every single shot of our
devices, we do make Dd d d fusion
neutrons,
and when we make measurements of these plasma,
they are
above 1KV
or around 11000000
degrees.
There we've seen evidence all the way up
to around 37000000
degrees so far. And that's hot enough to
make fusion. So that's a self consistent
observation.
Currently, we're still increasing the performance of our
devices in pursuit of breakeven
conditions.
Meaning that we make more power out from
fusion that you put into the plasma to
to make it happen.
And and, of course, that's the... That... I
suppose that's a the difficult but, you know,
not saying that what you've done already
hasn't been difficult.
But so what do you need to do?
What sort of engineering challenges and perhaps even
physics challenges, do you have to overcome,
to turn this into a practical way of
generating
energy?
Sure. So I'll start with the the plasma
physics part. And in short, our
model for how we get to high performance
is through this concept of adi
pressure.
And so you can think that if you
start with a Z pinch at a relatively
low plasma current. And then you ramp that
current to higher values pressure that's increasing this
the size of the magnetic field that's compressing.
So you can kind of think of this
as, like ramping the car as, like pushing
in a piston.
And getting it to higher densities and temperatures.
And so we have to have a pulse
power system that's able to
supply the correct amount of plasma current, which
for this concept is on the order of
a mega. So a million amps of current
going through this, very tiny wire that is
a z punch.
And so the challenge is ensuring that when
you put in that current
It ends up arranging
into the equilibrium that you want
with a high performance plasma in the core
of it.
And so right now, at zap, we're focused
on how to realize
the peak performance z pinch
in the lab. And we've been making a
lot of progress on that. Every day, I
feel like we're increasing the performance of ever
so more. And we still have a little
bit to go, but we are getting closer
to our our main milestone that we're focused
on, which is scientific breakeven.
I see. And and you're you're operating this
in a in a sort of a pulse
mode.
Are are you... Is is this sort of
continuous in the sense that, I don't know.
You're doing a... A pulse every minute and
gathering lots of data, or or is a
pulse sort of a big deal in the
sense that, you know, it... You... You've got
to I don't know. Save up your plasma,
and then you could do it once a
day,
or is it, you know, somewhere in between
Yeah. So this is more towards the I,
the engineering requirements to make this concept work.
And so the design point for the pilot
plant and eventual power plant. Based on this
technology,
is that of a pulse system.
And so the idea is that we're gonna
produce a Z pinch plasma,
that dwell making fusion energy for around a
hundred to 200 micro seconds.
And then after that pulse is finished, we
then reset the machine for another pulse in
our target frequency of running is 10 hertz.
So 10 cycles per second,
with each pulse making about 20 mega joules
fusion yield. And so doing the math quickly,
that's around an average power of 200 megawatts
output.
For the for the core?
And and how... I mean, I I know
this is maybe looking further into the future,
but how how would you get that
energy out.
I'm guessing you've got lots of
neutrons and radiation flying off in all direct
actions.
How
how would you capture that
and and exchange it into heat that or
convert into heat that ultimately could be used.
Yeah. That's great question. So for our first
generation systems, we're targeting
a d tri
fusion fuel cycle.
Primarily because it requires the lowest temperatures to
reach very high fusion powered densities. But to
your point, exactly the D reaction makes releases
as most of its energy in the form
of these high energy neutrons.
And so our
our design for the power plant is to
surround the z pinch plasma column, which is
about 50 centimeters long,
with a liquid metal blanket
and actually have that liquid metal directly facing
and serving as the anode
of the plasma.
And so that liquid metal we're envisioning to
be most likely lead lithium, the or even
potentially just p and facing the plasma.
And the purpose of that is to capture
neutrons coming from that plasma.
Slow them down and capture their kinetic energy
and make them into thermal energy. But also
there's lithium in that blanket to then react
with those thermal neutrons, to produce tri so
we can have the entire fuel cycle be
closed and complete.
I see.
And and what sort of time frame are
you working on,
you know, to go from the situation today
where you you know you're generating
fusion.
But not enough of it to make a
practical
power source. When... What, I mean, when do
you think that you could,
you know, start thinking about building AAA practical
source of energy.
Yeah. Great question. And so
that, we're very focused on the the speed
to market. And so the way to do
that in practice
is that we're developing a lot of these
technologies and and parallel.
And so I am in R and d
at Zap. And so we're basically focused on
getting
1 piston stroke of the machine to high
gain.
And so once we have 1 piston stroke,
then we can go into the internal combustion
engine, getting to 10 cycles per second.
So the way to do that though is
that you need to develop the liquid metal
technology. You need to develop the repetitive pulse
power technology,
and everything else that's required to make a
power plant. So we are working on that
in parallel right now, so we actually do
have liquid metal loops
flowing right now,
which are using business as a proxy
for lead at the moment for simplicity,
but also we're working on repetitive pulse power
systems as well
in house, and high high
performance cathode,
which basically is instead of doing 1 shot
every 3 minutes, which is what we do
right now. We're doing 10 cycles a second.
We have to actively cool those electrodes in
order to make sure they stay at the
right temperatures.
So we're doing all that in parallel
along with R and D with the intent
to then bring it together and deploy a
pilot plant,
most likely around the turn of the next
decade? So around 20 30 or so?
I see. And and can you talk a,
a bit about the company itself? I mean,
how many employees do you have? And,
what's, you know, what sort of things do
they do? I'm guessing, you do you employ
physicists as well as engineers?
Yes. Yes. So right now, I believe our
head count on Zap all in is around
a hundred and 50 people.
As I kind of alluded to just recently,
since we're developing all of these technologies in
parallel,
it takes quite the team to do that.
And so in the R and D division,
you know, we have Plasma physicists like myself
that are focused on, getting that performance up
to as high as we can in a
pulse mode.
But we also have an army of engineers
who are responsible for building these devices, so
we can actually experimentally test things beyond theory.
And then we also have
technicians as well who
help the engineers machine, all of these components.
We have the machine shop that I'm right
in front of doing this podcast, which hopefully
is quite enough,
and all of these people work together to
develop these incredible
components and platforms for testing and quick iteration.
We have that as tire team as well
on the systems engineering side, which is focused
on the liquid metal technology repetitive pulse power.
And the high performance materials development.
So across the gamut, so there are definitely,
many opportunities for physicists, we're always looking to
add
strategically to where we we need to build
out our team even more. I see. And
I think there's no doubt that
fusion is is is a growing.
Sector.
What... I mean, what sort of advice would
you give to, you know, somebody who's maybe
ph
finishing up a physics degree and interested
in working in the fusion sector. What
you know, what should they be doing to
prepare themselves,
you know, for that job interview at Zap
energy or a another company.
Yeah. So I would say right now is,
is kind of the best time in in
history to get into fusion,
just because there's an incredible
just ecosystem developing of of both public and
now an extensive private sector,
with a lot of investors that are willing
to go the distance with us to to
commercial these technologies,
And I would... My advice would be to
really narrow in as much as you can
and, what you would like to do the
most, what you would enjoy doing.
If you... For example, want to work on
the plasma, quote physics part and getting the
fusion performance,
advancing, that's more towards, like, getting it Phd
in plasma physics.
But if you still wanna contribute meaningfully to
the commercialization of fusion.
There is absolutely no requirement to go the
Phd and plasma physics route. There are so
many
needs for engineers and technicians. And frankly speaking,
as we get closer to commercialization, those are
the people we're going to need most to
build these devices and deploy them and connect
them to electrical grids.
So I would really just go with your...
Where you find the most interest with your
career. And most likely you'll find a home
infusion because there's so many different things need
to advance.
And and Derek, you you touched on the
fact that there there there is a growing
interest, both in government, the investment community
we
in companies that are trying to develop small
scale fusion technologies.
What do you think is is driving this
interest or
should it be seen as, you know, we're
getting closer
to Fusion after, you know, sort of years
of it being something
off in the distance. It it sort of
feels like that to to me. Is that
is that how you see it?
Yes. So I definitely think it's a case
that we are getting closer. And I I
would say we've kind of hit this
critical mass of understanding from the just foundational
physics standpoint getting of the requirements for making
infusion system work.
And so once you have that really good
understanding that we've been
spent the last half century developing from scratch
effectively.
Now you... You're transitioning more towards an engineering
problem,
But I think to your point of, you
know, why there's so much interest from the
investment community and some of these more compact
approaches.
I think it it comes from the realization
that once you get closer, you you you
realize the goal isn't just hitting break.
The goal is deploying a power plant that
someone's willing to purchase and and pay electricity
from.
And so when you think of that as
the standard of what's the best approach. It
starts changing your your your calculations of what
you should be investing in overall. And what
type of product you're developing?
And I think that the challenge with fusion
and general or frankly, any
technology development that's focused on energy.
Is that it's very much deep technology
development, but then you're trying to deploy into
a commodities market at the end, which tends
to be pretty regulated and also quite competitive
in some cases.
And so trying to match the the product,
with the market and acknowledging that there's still
a lot of work to to be done
to commercial.
I think it's a very exciting time and
I applaud the investors for willing to take
take this endeavor on,
because whoever's is gonna win the race or
whoever meaning the group of people that will
win the race, are the people that end
up making the best product.
And I think that's where Zap really shines
and what that will eventually look like would
connected to the grid.
And and what about,
you know, the sort of growing concern
over the environment.
You know, if you guys succeed or if
somebody else, succeeds.
We could have a a source of energy
with a with a very small
environmental
footprint. Do you think do you think that
that's driving
both the investment community and also people who
are setting up companies and and going to
work for companies like Z.
Yeah. I definitely do. And many of our
investors are, you, from the space of climate
tech where their focused specifically on companies,
that are aiming to reduce carbon emissions and
and another pollution,
while still providing a source of, clean energy
and I think there's this this kind of
renewed interest in
power sources that are reliable, meaning that they're
on demand.
Fusion is 1 of those
sources of low low carbon or no carbon
as part of the process
itself.
Reliable forms of energy. And so when you
think about having something like fusion to work
in concert with renewables like wind and solar,
You start thinking about grids that are actually
able to achieve deep d,
while still having a very high uptime.
And I think that's incredibly motivating and you
can effectively have your clean energy and your
reliability at the same time, which I think
is what everyone wants.
Well, that's great. Thanks so much, Derek, for
coming on the on the podcast and talking
about zap energy. It's my pleasure. Thanks for
having me.
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Io science,
of the 4 fundamental forces of nature, gravity
is probably the most familiar to non physicists.
But despite its ubi in our daily lives,
there's a huge gap in our understanding of
gravity that's confounded physicists
for a century.
What we know and don't know about gravity
is chronic
in the beauty of falling.
Which is a new popular science book by
Claudia Dora.
She's a theoretical physicist,
based at the Uk's
Imperial College, and here she is in
conversation with physics world's mat Du.
Some delighted joined by Claudia Dev arm, who's
written a new book called the beauty of
falling. Hello. Claudia, and Nice have you. So
do you wanna tell us all about the
book coined
what's it about? And why did you decide
to to write it? U. Yes. Absolutely.
So maybe I can start with, our first?
First of all, thanks a lot for having
me. It's great to talk about it.
Maybe why I I wanted to to write
it and and I think he came very
much. From a desire to share,
not only what we do in science in
the type of research, which I far very
exciting myself
to share to share that. But also
to share how we do science, How we
do physics,
and and hopefully engage a little bit more
about some of those aspects that may seem
a little bit remote
to people.
And the firm there is in in in
doing that. I think
1 of the aspect for me, which is
very important is that
I'm scientist, but we all are scientist and
it's it's about a little bit
awakening
this drive that I think we we all
have in ourselves,
and
ideally, making people realize that that they have
it in themselves as well and
exploring some of those questions is thing that
they may want to consider or at least
they can feel... They can relate to to
some extent.
People sometimes ask me
who I would like to most connect with
and and I think it's...
Ideally you like to connect with people that
are naturally curious. But
perhaps I would even more want to connect
with people who don't even realize how much
they have it in themselves in build curiosity.
How how there's a little fire in themselves
wanting to
address some of the questions that we all
ask ourselves, and realizing for them to realize
that they are part of it. They are
part of this human and never human journey
in trying to explore and always pushing the
frontiers of our of our knowledge.
So the the title is the beauty of
falling,
and the falling aspect of it very much
is is a gravitational aspect. Of it. I'm
a third physicist and I work on,
various aspect of cosmology, but particularly of gravity
understanding how to describe this fundamental phenomenon, this
fundamental force. I would say it is a
full down
of gravity
So it goes a little bit through an
introduction of how, Our understanding of this fundamentals
phenomenon has evolved throughout the centuries.
And how Einstein einstein's Therapy general activity provides
a very good description for gravity,
but also how
1 of the most precious aspect of of
Einstein's the original activity
is that it fails at some points. And
that is to some life on the beauty
falling,
falling in the theory itself. The the theory
does feel and embracing this failure
is to my mind, 1 of the best
feature that the theory could have
because it really shows us that
there's not an not to be truth. There's
not an of knowledge, and
that's it. We we we got it and
and that's it. The
when we do research and when we explore
the world when we do science, it's always
a continuous
ad.
And and so if we know that our
theory, like Einstein's theory general
fails.
Is this the best feature, the theory can
have because it tells us where to look
for new discoveries. We don't need to do
lots of observations. Of course, we do. But
we don't need to do lots of observations
and wait until there's a mismatch between observations
and the vertical predictions. Actually, we already know
from the outset that they will become a
point where we need to...
And cover new layers of physics. Something else
has to come in.
And to me is it's very exciting.
Actually when things don't quite work out, a
about 1 it's really exciting and we know
there's something else there.
And so it goes through a little bit
on on how we know.
From the outset that there there is a
point of failure. There's a... There's a time
where the original activity does fail. And,
how to embrace that aspect and move forward
from it and how you understand how to
how to even
try to address some of the questions. When
we know things don't work out, sometimes it's
difficult to even appreciate how to... What is
the right question to ask ourselves.
Particularly when we're dealing with, gravity,
which in itself is
the description of space and time themselves,
And so the tools we typically use
to describe what happens,
does rely on some perception of space and
time, every question we ask ourselves typically relies
on what happens there?
Oh, 0, or, such type of question of
which kind of
includes the notion of space and include of
time. And if we know that what we
have at our disposal or to describe this
fails,
the very notion of space and times, maybe
stop making sense in themselves.
And had to ask ourselves the question of
how to describe what it goes beyond that,
is tricky in itself.
But that's good. That's excellent. We we need
to invent new languages to to explain that.
So that title falling in gravity. There's quite
a clever play on,
the the idea of it falling down, and
also, obviously,
gravity something that makes you fall down. So
who who came up with who came up
with that title? Was that you or the
publisher?
If I, I think he was always in
the back of my mind did this
The the beauty was essential because
to my mind it, it's something which which
is beautiful. It it's not... It it's about
sharing this. Side of how exciting and fun,
but really beautiful,
it is. And falling it...
It is it's very much in me because
I go through the book as well,
through some of aspects of of my own
life.
As a as a human and as a
scientist.
And in the scientists scientific research falling and
failing is also part of the process.
And so that that that was always clear
from the outset that we have to embrace
this failure in in everyday life
so I goes through the book in in
my own personal
experiences
with falling and and failing
which is not always particularly comfortable but it's
part of the process. And and there is
a beauty in it in
the aim of the book is very much
in uncovering this beauty
me a personal beauty in in falling.
So it came up very naturally that this
was the only... The only possible title for
the book really because he put everything together.
And at the start of the book I
know that you talk about.
Your experience is moving around and the difficulty
with communicated with different languages that you've got
to to struggle with,
So how did that influence how you write
the book and how you approach your workers
as a physicist?
Well, first of all, just... The fact that
you have to connect with different languages, make
it
very clear that the way you connect with
the world is not just through
that language per s. Those are just tools
that allows you to model some more truths
and and for me, that's why it was
very important from an early age. To try
to connect with something which was more reliable.
Talk about more reliable,
channel of a communication,
which
for which there will be less
misunderstanding,
is in some... To some level. I think
for me science it's beautiful in this way
in in that you you realize how you
connect much more closely with phenomena and without
needing to rely as much words, which I
always found it very, very difficult.
And so that's why when I started to
to write the book,
I was always very amused with myself because
writing is really not
and ta is really not my skill. So
I I did find it extremely hard at
at first. But but there is a level
in which you realize
how you just
put down. In words, anything that goes through
through your mind. And then they sort of
organize themselves,
by by themselves, the message
became,
quite clear very naturally and also how the
different
pieces of the story I wanted to tell,
very naturally came in together.
I don't know when people read it what
impression it gives. But it hasn't been
engineers somewhere, in in a way that he
was setting things up. It he came up
very naturally that
I sort of learn more much more about
myself in writing the book And in doing
so I realized much more why I had
been so eagerly driven by sciences
by by research. High was very natural from
a from an early agent. So fitted in
very nicely in the picture
without needing to to force it in any
way.
I think I think it it was I'm
using for me to see how much more
it became natural that what I was doing
as a researcher was the most natural thing
I I could be doing because that's what
I had been.
Driven to from from from the beginning.
So almost writing the book, helped you sort
of realize things about yourself? Perhaps you haven't
realized. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I I love. A
lot of things absolutely.
And were you inspired by any particular other
authors when you wrote the book, Are there
any particular science writers do you think? Well...
Yeah. They they do it really well. Let
me
simulate their style So I'm sure they... I'm
sure there is. I really tried very hard
when... From the moment, I started writing the
book. I tried very hard actually not to
look at other
popular science books because I didn't want to
be get fluent. So I think it is
easy to read something and
and then it goes in your head and
you you may even forget where it came
from, and then be too inspired by that.
So I wanted to make sure that I
I don't... Fall into something where I start
explaining things in our way had been explained
in the same way by by someone else.
I wanted things to come to be a
bit more
coming for me from from the outset, and
that required a bit more work, but I
I think it is important.
So now, I I go back in and
read other
very, very nice popular our science book, but
I really tried to make sure I wasn't
doing that
before that. And, how what sort of reaction
has there been to the book? So far
have you had
any good reviews, much good publicity.
There's been a lot of engagement. He's been
great. He's been great. I love. I really
love it when
connect with, as I say, with people who
see that how they would fit in,
how this is,
actually, something they can imagine themselves doing or
or just connecting with. This this is great.
I mean, that... It's like everything that some
people
do
appreciate a more personal
aspect of the story.
For some people, they... That's not what they
after, and that's absolutely fine.
The the perspective is different for from everyone.
But I was trying very consciously to do
something which may not be what most of
your popular science books are. And and so
the fact that he connects with some people
in resonates with some people more than with
some others as completely normal.
But but part of it for me was
very important to
connect at a more personal level because we
are a human doing science. And and it
was important to to share this to share
this aspect.
To me, we can't completely separate the 2
of them.
Now while we recording this interview, I can
see behind your a wonderful blackboard filled with
equation. So it's the classic question, you know,
how do you convert those?
Incredible mathematical ideas
into language,
that must be very difficult to do that
without sort of
you know, if you're a reed and you
don't actually work through the calculations, but you
have to sort of take it on trust
and how do you explain that, that must
be quite difficult.
Yes. It's it it's a good question. So
do some level for me,
and I think for for a lot of
us.
The all of those symbols on the board.
This is the language. This this
is straight straight away connected to some concepts.
Without needing to go through words,
going through the words, it is more challenging.
But you learn to do that. I think
as you go through through research, I go
as you go to your your career,
you learn to get intuition
at various level. So there is a math
in a in it through self, and you
need to learn to learn to do it.
You need to learn to
translate
the thoughts into
more rigorous technical ways to express them on
as as it is on on the blackboard.
But after a while, this becomes almost second
nature so that you don't even need to
think about the symbols themselves,
the concepts
and how they fit in together,
become much more natural. If And so a
lot of the time,
we look at the blackboard, but sometimes we
look at the blackboard, and and we talk
with narcotics but this it's not like there's
anything
specific written in the blackboard that that we
connect to. It's more the concepts.
Sometimes,
there was an equation that was there
a months ago, and in the meantime he's
been erased.
But but we still know in a head
where he was and and what he meant
and and how the different characters
played role. It's like a little movie if
if if you want. And so when we
come back in office and we discussed about
those concepts
we we sort of look at the board
at the place where that equation is. And
it's no longer there. It's another equation. But
it doesn't matter. It's like you You remember
the story and what he tells and what
he means and and how will connect to
other concepts.
But, obviously, you need to use. Matt, how
good do you need to be at mathematics
to do your job? And how how different
are you to someone who's a pure mathematician?
Do you do you... Obviously, you're using the
same language of mathematics, but you must approach
things differently don't you? Yeah. I think
you're absolutely right then. Setting those were setting
those equations back in words and physical concepts
in what it means practically for the real
world is very important as a physicist.
And for some mathematicians as well. But as
a physicist, that's that's extremely
important. So so
I think possibly as a physicist, the intuition
on how things work
connected to to the real world is then,
more important to to some extent.
Perhaps mathematicians would think that some physicists, including
myself or just me. I don't know.
Can be a bit less rigorous sometimes,
the the rigor is there, but we are
happy to make some
approximation if it's gonna help us move along,
and those approximation are well justified. So some
of the things and are completely exact,
but they are good enough to be an
excellent description and of what we need and
and for all intents purposes to
to do what we wanted to do, and
that will help us build our intuitions.
Was the... Often the math
mathematicians, they they're more after some
more formal, more rigorous, more exact statements. So
it's it was It's a lot about what
you want to use those concepts for.
And coming back to the book. Are you
are you happy with how it worked out?
Are you pleased or were you... Or did
you or did you still want to sort
of keep refining it? Are you you content
with it? I gone through it. A hundred
times, and even now when I go through
it, I still would like to correct so
many different things.
It does it has evolved Think. It has
it will be no end to it.
I I've been in the process of of
translating it in in different languages. And and
as I translated every time,
it's like, 0II should I should have done
this differently. And and so in the French
version, there's a few things which... Yeah it's
minor. From a that side perspective will be
minor. But for me,
the some of the connection Are bit sharper,
and,
of, of course, with the feedback that I
do get, I realize are, some of the
elements are should have done. It's more like
this. It's it's all bit that that's the
way it is. It can never it can
never be perfect.
But also me as a person changed should
we all evolve, and so you'll be...
If if he was up to me, it
we'll just have continuously evolve. So you're translate
yourself. You're not getting first party you
so,
I had a translated the the someone translating
in the book, but then as I goes
through it.
If if it's sort of a fresh,
it's hard to resist the temptation
of adapting,
is not is not a big things, but
little things here and there in ways that
you realize make a bit more sense as
you go as you go through it.
So it's being translated into French and which
other languages? Yeah. Into French, German,
currently been translated in Japanese,
Chinese,
Greek, Romania.
Yeah. It's And do they all manage to
get that joke about from the title in
those languages cannot be? As far as I
can see, Yes. Yeah. The french 1 was
it wasn't bit tricky. I have me. But
I think we're... I think we got to
it. It it it's it's fine. Yeah.
Yeah. In some languages is easier than others.
Yeah. Tell Okay. Well, best of let me
the book and thanks for talking to us
about it. Nice to see. Thank you very
much. Thanks A. Thanks.
The beauty of falling has been reviewed by
Physics world's Kate Gardner.
Look for the headline
how gravity falls down on falling down on
our website to find Kate's review.
I'm afraid that's all the time we have
for this week's podcast, which is supported by
F vacuum.
Thanks to Derek Sutherland.
Claudia
And Mat
for joining me today. And a special thanks
to our producer Fred Isles.
We'll be back again next week when we'll
learn about the challenges
of marketing
nascent quantum computers.
And chat about the undergraduate
physics
student experience.
In the meantime, do check out the latest
feature article on the Physics World website, in
which James Gill,
former public relations guru at Cern
looks back on an eventful career that included
end of the world lawsuits,
brushes with Hollywood royalty
and the discovery of the God particle.
James article is on the Physics World website.
Just look for the headline,
Angels and demons,
Tom Hanks, and Peter Higgs, how Cern sold
its story to the world.
Thanks again to F vacuum for supporting this
episode of the podcast.
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