Hello and welcome to the Physics World Weekly
podcast.
I'm Hamish Johnston.
Before I introduce this week's guest I need
to let you know that there will be
no weekly podcast on the fourth of July.
Instead, you can tune in on the second
of July for the first installment of physics
world live,
which will focus
on quantum sensors.
Featuring a panel of experts. This live event
will explore the
extraordinary
capabilities of quantum sensors
and look at how they could benefit
humanity
and shape our understanding of the world.
You can find out more on the Physics
World website. Just click on the Physics world
live tab near the top of the homepage.
In this episode, I'm in conversation with the
physicist
Stephanie Simmons,
who is founder and chief quantum officer of
Vancouver based for tonic ink.
The company is developing optically linked silicon spin
q.
And it has recently announced that it has
distributed
quantum
entanglement
between 2 of its modules.
Recently, I caught up with Stephanie in London
where she was speaking at the commercial
quantum global 20 24 conference.
Here is that
conversation.
Hi, Stephanie. Welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for having me. So,
Stephanie, can you explain how Photon silicon based
quantum computing platform works?
Absolutely. So photon Inc. We are
using photons to glue processors
together. We are fundamentally working on distributed quantum
computing. And so what do I mean by
that?
I mean the ability to take
individual quantum processing units
and link them together just like we do
with
conventional
supercomputer for classical computing is taking
individual modules and rack mounting them and having
horizontal scale. So we are heads down on
using
photons
to glue all of these pieces together, and
the pieces that we're gluing together we're using
spin q bits, and it's in silicon,
and it's using telecom photons to link them
together. So that's the core of the technology
and that's why we're moving as quickly as
we are. I see. Okay. And is this
is this because you're using photons? Is it
a a sort of a linear
technology
or are you having the or the photons
interacting with each other? Oh, or is it
both? Oh, lovely. Yes. So this is the
the beautiful part about working backwards
from the large scale quantum technology that we
want to build. As soon as you're using
photons to glue things together, you no longer
need the individual q within each module to
essentially overlap 1 another to get their interactions.
So, yeah, The picture is that you take
spin q bits and silicon. These ones are
photon active, spin q bits and silicon.
What you do is you trigger them to
emit
individual photons, which are entangled with the spins
that leave behind.
And then you get those 2 photons to
interfere. So that's diving right into the technical
detail right out of the gate, but it
does mean that you can think about scale
in a completely different way. You can think
about engineering these quantum systems in a completely
different way to what's been
traditionally assumed to be true. For the space.
So that's 1 of the reasons why we
are we are using this and leveraging it
to scale rapidly.
Okay. So, Stephanie, what are the challenges that
you face? In scaling up the technology to
create a practical quantum computer.
Well, I think this is a wonderful question
because we're taking that scale challenge very serious
from the from the ground up. The way
that we've been looking at quantum technologies is
there's going to be 3 phases of quantum
development.
The first phase is the phase that we're
in right now, which is what I call
the n phase or this noisy
intermediate scale quantum phase where there's a small
number of quantum particles all within 1 box
that have some
performance characteristics, but you can't do error correction.
Phase 2 is when they... Those single boxes
get good enough for the quantum ingredients within
them get good enough to do air correction.
And that's where we hope to start seeing
some some more interesting use cases come out
of quantum, but the real market opportunity
is in this phase 3 quantum
supercomputer phase. Right? So the scale challenge is
so integral to quantum technologies because the only
algorithms where we know there's
mathematical proof of product market fit is in
that phase 3
supercomputer phase.
And for us, having that means having network
quantum computing. Thinking about the quantum network as
a core ingredient to that scale challenge.
And it's not the sort of thing that
you can just add in later. If you
take a look at the way quantum systems
and quantum computers have been evolving,
putting on an interconnect, putting on a photon
interconnect after the fact doesn't work very well.
You actually have very much go back to
the building blocks to think about how do
I scale this technology.
And so it is a bit of a...
It's a newcomer to the space for sure
it's a new newcomer to the quantum space,
but it is engineered with scale in mind.
Right? It's leveraging silicon,
It's leveraging the manufacture ability of silicon. It's
leveraging telecom photons and all of the telecom
infrastructure And so we're already out of the
box. That's 1 of the most interesting things
we were excited to share with the world
last week was the ability to do to
distributed logic, distributed computing using using these basic
building blocks.
So by working backwards from the end in
mind, we can have these core components
and scale quickly and no longer be constrained
to the size of any 1 box. And
and these components are they
Are they the source of things that can
be
manufactured
relatively
easily using
you know, standard semi conductor processes. Is that
the... Is that the aim to to to
get to tailor something that can actually be
built?
Exactly, exactly it's important if we're gonna be
trying to get commercial value out of these
systems to think about
ability from day 1. So if you work
backwards from the assertion, that photons are going
to glue together large scale quantum supercomputer in
a network. You have to also be thinking
about what are the inner photon platforms that
give you that core capability and silicon is
exactly that. The other core photon capability care
about is Telecom. Right? There's so much telecom
low loss infrastructure that'll allow us to route
these photons around and get entanglement where it
needs to be. So absolutely,
ability is so important to how we should
be engineering for these large scale quantum
supercomputer. And that's why the the spin photon
interfaces that we're working with. We've chosen the
t center in silicon. It's a specific small
molecule
that emits these photons, it has great spin
cubic properties, but it's a telecom
object
right in the silicon. And we can implant
the constituents and do some heat treatment and
it's just like regular silicon processing. It's 1
of the reasons we can move as quickly
as we have. I see. And the this
t center, is that... I mean, is that
something that's similar to an Envy center and
diamond. That is the same sort of an
idea really.
Yes. Brilliant yes. It's part of that category
of spin photon interfaces where you have not
only the spin that can offer phenomenal quantum
characteristics. So we've set world records for for
coherent times of spins in silicon, but these
are you know, spins and semiconductors have that
that capability.
But, yes, what's different between the Envy v
center and this is Instead of diamond, we
have the manufacture and processing capability of silicon.
We already have silicon photon, silicon on ins.
It just leverages a lot. And the second
change is that we're using telecom
telecom wavelengths for light. So it allows us
to network these things much more easily. But
there's also some little details that make a
big big difference,
that's a, bit of a different between the
N mb center and the t center, which
is perhaps a little too technical to get
into here. No. This is world. So we
wanna get into it.
Oh, okay. Well, there are
there are opportunities to keep the fidelity of
everything a little bit higher through the optical
cycle. There's some... And there's more spins that
you can use. So there's more spins in
the t center than the nitrogen center, so
you have more local processing
capabilities. So the t center has a hydrogen
and 2 carbon atoms in addition to an
electron that can give you that spin photon
interface that photon interconnect. So you have 3
nuclear spins that are all amazing,
and they can be protected against optical cycles.
If you're just, you know, that's that's as
far as I'll go here, but I think
it makes a big difference in terms of
the performance of a large scale system. Okay.
And I I think a lot of our
listeners will be familiar to Envy mv centers,
and you know, there's a lot of work
being done on on how to create them
in a controlled way. So with these t
centers, this is something that you can you
can use... I don't know, ion implant plantation
or something to put them exactly where you
want them. That's exactly right. The system. That's
exactly right. So, for a, if you're working
with a integrated photon system, you only need
the t center localized to within 15 nanometers,
and we actually can get better than 10
nanometers.
So, yeah, we can we could implant them
where they want and we can create more
more than enough, like the density can be
very high. So Yeah. The
ability is is important. That's why when we
went looking for it. We went looking for
the t center a few years ago before
the company got started. We were looking with
exactly that lens. Right? You would looking back
in the literature and seeing what formed naturally
and drawing from that literature to find the
a secret ingredient to unlock a telecom spin
photon interface. Okay. And, you know, sort of...
I I don't wanna, you know, dwell on
these t centers for too long, but, I
mean, they... I suppose they are fascinating
to physicists. So they... I mean, I it's
probably not your in in the company at
the moment, but do they also have applications
for sensing in the same way that Envy
centers do? It's a wonderful quest, we are
very much interested in how isolated these are.
Right? So sensors
indicate an environmental sensitivity, which actually, you don't
want in a high performing compute system or
a networking system, but I will say that
this is the same technology you need for
network. So let me dive into that for
a second. The thing that has been limiting
scale for quantum
is quantum network... For quantum computing has been
the lack of quantum networking. But I would
say the other side is also true. The
thing that's been limiting quantum networks
has been distance, which requires essentially small quantum
computers to give you repeater.
Right? The repeater give you that distance, it
gives you the ability to scale users because
multiple users can plug into a single repeater,
and that scale has been missing on the
networking side.
And so this is just 1 more reason
why telecom wavelengths matter so much. Right? Because
if you're going to be working on a
combined
network quantum computing
solution, you have to be at those wavelengths.
You have to be right at those at
those telecom wavelengths. So what It I would
say is that this
really does merge the the quantum of technology
streams of networks and computing into 1 platform.
And I think anything
that tries to go it alone is gonna
have a scaling issue. So that will... At
some point need to be addressed. Right? So
that's why... Yeah. It you can use the
entanglement
distribution of a network to link to sensors,
but it's not a direct 1 for 1.
Like you... They could, like, you alluded to
with the Envy nbc center magnet for example.
Okay. Right. Okay. No more questions about t
centers.
Hello Great. They're really interesting script there, but
that's why these interviews are fun. So, Stephanie,
what are some of the quantum computing applications
that the technology is particularly suited for.
Yes.
So in this phase,
1 phase 2 phase 3
conversation for quantum technologies. We are very much
focused on these phase 3 applications. And what
do I mean by that? The known
exponential speed up algorithms
requiring, usually upwards of a thousand logical q
with very good logical error rates. Right? To
do amazing things like help on the drug
discovery pipeline
or the crypto side. Any of those kinds
of known exponential speed ups where there's quote
unquote,
mathematical proof of product market fit, where you
can go and crunch through the deter algorithms
say, okay, this you this many logical q
you can get a deter result. That's exciting.
For us because what we want to do
first and foremost is unlock value for people
at... Because then it starts a flywheel
of of other investment and opportunity seeking for
these systems.
That is not to say that there may
or may not be value in this phase
2 era. The phase 2 errors where everything's
boxed
constrained to a single box where yours only
maybe a couple hundred at most logical q.
So the applications that you get me up
in the morning on the chemistry side or
on the chemistry side, in particular.
So there's a, a molecule that was identified
Well, many people know about it, but Google
did the good work to identify it as
a quantum target, which is the CYP molecule.
And
they call it sip.
And this thing
metabolize
70 percent of human
drugs
70 percent, and they don't know how to
simulate it with a computer at all because
it has the heavy elements that really do
require
quantum computers to be have tools fit for
purpose. Right? So if we could understand how
that molecule worked, we would be able to
better predict how drugs would get through or
not,
the the entire late stage trials process? Right?
And how much would that save on everybody's
cycle. So that 1 would be excellent. The
other 1 is catalysts.
Right? So catalysts
have heavy elements in them, and they just
can't be simulated. So right now, we'd seem
to just chuck a whole bunch of options
on the wall and see what works. But
we're gonna need some pretty,
key developments on the catalyst side to rework
our entire energy. So system. Right? The catalysts
help everything unlock. So having a tool fit
for purpose to understand how they work would
be just transformative.
So those are the ones that get me
up in the morning, let's say, but I'm
most,
in the long term fascinated by what we
don't yet know.
And so I like to use the classical
semiconductor
computing as a... An as example here. Every
time you commercial a branch of 6 at
the outset, you have no idea what the
actual use cases and applications are, and it's
actually very rare do you get to see
it in advance?
So much so that
when the
transistor first came on the scene,
people weren't
necessarily excited about things like Facebook.
They thought the key application was hearing aids.
Right? Because they already had vacuum tube computer.
So Thought they're like, okay, fine. It can
be lighter.
And smaller, a little bit. Great. Let's make
a hearing it. Like, that was the application.
Right? So they they... You can't always see
where things are gonna go and I'm most
excited to see what this
computational power can do once we've had a
broader
generation of people developing use cases for it,
especially after we get them up on online
where we can then start playing with, like,
the heuristic algorithms,
where you don't have a determine this number
of of q that you need to do
a thing. Right? Ai is a great example
of a heuristic girl. All the optimization algorithms
we have today are all heuristic. They just
seem to work. Right? So, where it's not
anchored to a a computational complexity argument, for
example. So I'm excited to see what quantum
can do in that phase,
And that was a quite a long answer,
but I hope that take no. That That
that's fine. Yeah. I I just wanted to
to ask you, but you you mentioned, you
know, needing about a thousand logical q bits.
I mean, that sort of suggests to me
that you're going to be doing some sort
of error correction with lots more real q
bits. Yes, sir. Are you talking about sort
of a million
real q bits or can can you do
it with fewer or do you have to
use more or? I love this question because
this was the elephant in the room for
the first decade or 2 of quantum technology
development.
And people were just having a hard time
getting their heads around the fact that it
seemed to be hard to make 50 cub
and yet we needed millions to do anything
of Value.
I would say that fortunately,
there has been a lot of excellent physics
and computer science that have gone into making
those goal posts 20 years closer, and I'll
I'll share with you how that's possible.
If you go with conventional assumptions on how
error correction works for quantum, you're absolutely right,
You need, like, 3000
physical q for every 1 logical
cube. Right? It seems like,
difficult to imagine that certainly not within any
1 bar. You are definitely going to benefit
from horizontal scalability to hit those kinds of
numbers. I think somebody was earlier at the
conference. Someone
refer to it as a factory.
Oh, my gosh. There's the quantum factory to
do. There's there's so much. But fortunately,
if you actually work backwards
from success and you take a look at
what the best
quantum codes are
It's actually not the ones that people have
been engineering for.
People have been engineering for plan codes,
because the systems that they were trained up
on,
used proximity
to do their multi cubic gates to do
their scenic gates.
But that's not at all what you... You're
you're not restricted to that at all. If
you're working with a network quantum technology,
You can string these things together way you
want. Photons are great at moving around and
interconnect and they don't talk to each other.
Right? You can put 2 flashlight or 2
torches, let's say, hey, at 90 degrees, and
those photons carry through just fine. Right You
can you can get these read it all
over the place.
But when you do that, then you have
the opportunity to connect them the best way
or rather
optimize them for error correction. And what used
to take 3000
physical
takes 30. Right? So these codes that exist.
There are actually 5 g codes that have
been quote unquote, made quantum, they're called quantum
L codes. If you haven't heard about them.
I do suggest you go up and read
on them because they have moved the quantum
goal post 20 years closer for everyone who
can actually implement those codes. Those overheads go
from scary
down to achievable.
So, Stephanie, can you tell me a bit
about Photon Inc, the company. How how many
employees do you have and what R and
D facilities are available to you? So you...
You're based in is Vancouver where you're based.
That's right. Right. But you've got some other
offices around the world as well. Can you
tell us a bit of about the company.
Yeah. That's right. So, I started,
just to wind back and give a bit
of context. I I started as a professor
to go find these spin photon interfaces
based out in Vancouver.
And in 20 20, we found and shared
with the world,
the t center.
So we have been essentially a Covid born
company. We got the green light on our
first
investment round in in 20 21.
So we're quite a young company, but we're
already doing distributed quantum computing. Right? So it
is moving fast by standing on the shoulders
of giants.
So in those... In that short time, we've
gained a a phenomenal team, we have a
hundred and 40 people
but they're not all based in Vancouver, Our
strategy has absolutely been quality, not quantity, and
so are... We we tap the world's best
on the shoulders and better where they live
in the world, and
we have a pretty good hit rate once
we share what we're up to and where
we're going. Because that scalability argument is it's
just... It is compelling for people.
So we do yes, have offices in the
states and we have offices in the Uk.
And we have team members all over Europe
and North America.
Yeah. So it's it's a great team. It's
it's lots of time zones, but it's absolutely
a a phenomenal environment and the best minds
to engage with. Okay. And and so how
how many people do you have and what
but are they mostly
Phds
in physics or
electrical engineering? Is that is that the sort
of stage that the company is at? At
the moment. It's a it's a great question.
Actually, we don't have as many Phds as
you'd think because a lot of the work
to be done is on the engineering. So
like electrical engineering, absolutely, but there's cryo
engineering and mechanical engineering and lots of professional
software,
engineers,
We have...
We even have a machine nest do we...
But, yeah, we do the full stack on
the quantum side, and those are mostly Phds.
And on the integrative photon side, we do
an agile hardware cycle, which means we have
independent supply chains on 2 different manufacturing,
supply chains, and we turn over a chip
every day every 2 days, and we have
a quite a quite an operations scene that's
going through on a professional silicon photon basis.
So, yeah, there is a lot of... There
are physicists, but the work to be done
for scaling these systems is a lot of
engineering physics, let's say. Okay. But, I mean,
if there is a physicist out there and
I'm sure there people listening to this thinking
wow. You know, how can I get into
this
industry? It sounds fascinating.
What what sort of advice would you give
you know, somebody who's... I don't know. Maybe
they're finishing an undergraduate degree in physics or
maybe they're just out a Phd,
and they'd really like to get into the
the quantum biz. Right. I I think it's
it's
absolutely a good idea, the... What happens with
technology development. If you take a look at
history,
is that there is... When you commercial a
branch of physics, every single time this has
happened, there's usually a Cam explosion of of
different opportunities.
So for, right now, we have a whole
bunch of different quantum platforms. But honestly,
even if only 1 or 2 of them
end up being the dominant
form of quantum technology,
everybody in the industry ends up benefiting.
There ends up being a consolidation event where
everybody kind of comes together and there's murderers
in the rest of it, and people all
still start rowing the boat in the same
direction, and there's a massive talent shortage. Because
usually that happens once commercial advantage or commercial
acceleration exists. Right? So there's money to be
made. So I would say, yeah. In in
my time in Quantum,
certainly, the the compensation been phenomenal for anybody
in the quantum tech space. I would say
that it's also
extremely competitive,
which doesn't...
That's it's actually a really good thing because
it means that the people you get spend
time with our are all brilliant usually.
And you get to do something meaningful.
Right? So they're very motivated as well. So
I would absolutely recommend it, especially as things
are progressing ever more quickly towards a kind
of consolidated view, I would say on how
to do large scale useful quantum tech. Right?
These new codes make a lot of sense,
Distributed quantum computing makes a lot of sense.
People are starting to converge. So the timing
to get into it is quite good. And
there's lots of interest in and people just
wanna know what quantum means for them now.
Right? So there's there's a lot of interest
in being aware of what that is from
a from a job opportunity and being able
to trade that in the market. And it
it sounds to me that maybe the you
know, the the cube
flavor that you choose doesn't matter. If you
you join a company that's working on super
conducting q bits or silicon cub or ion
based q bits. Does that... I mean, does
that not matter in the long run? You're
not gonna hit a dead end with that
in the industry.
You know, you could move.
You know, for example, would, you know, would
you hire a very good person who's worked
on super conducting Q. Yeah. Tell your to
company, even if they don't, you know, they
wouldn't have the technical background. Well, we're in
a position where our Cuba are so young
they're Toddler cub. Right? That we only shared
them with... We hadn't found them. And we
shared their existence with the world in in
20 20.
So everybody that we've hired if they didn't
come up through the ranks in my research
program had to come from another branch of
quantum technologies.
So,
yeah, I do see and the long term,
which hardware modality is is maybe less relevant.
I think if you were to invest in
the really long term, it would make sense
to pick something that did talk to photons,
I... There's really no way that in the
large scale photons aren't gonna be a part
of the network quantum system.
When you say photons, do you mean not
microwaves waves.
As in super conducting kids or, you know,
what what we think of as light, visible
light. Oh, that's a great question. There is
more trans verbal knowledge than you would think.
Actually, I would say there's almost more transferable
knowledge from microwave photons over to spin photon
interfaces than from the pure spin community where
they don't have to necessarily think about Cavity
coupling or any of those dynamics. Right?
So it is a lot more transferable than
you think thinking and yes, we've definitely hired
Super people and I trap people and neutral
Adam people and You do want to be
able to draw from that broad base of
quantum experience because, ultimately, these are electromagnetic fields.
And and quantum cub that go through the
same kind of control characteristics usually. Right? So
there is a lot more transferable than than
you'd think.
But I do say that, you know, the
stack side is also very, very interesting where
you don't... You can come from different
versions of the Quantum stack and still transfer
over. So if you're working on... So when
you say stock, But what what what does
that mean? Yeah. So, like, if we're if
you're a focused
expert on a 1 branch of quantum error
correction, and you feel like, oh, hey, maybe
this new kind of error correction is where
I should be spending my efforts
that is an easy jump to make too.
And, yeah, I don't see it as a
as a... Especially with the increasing awareness of
how cross compatible
the various challenges are, but it is
absolutely worth getting in deep. It is worth
understanding the very deep details
because you would be shocked at how frequently
they come up in adjacent
environment. Right? Right? So so when you say
deep, do you mean,
understanding the physics. On Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So,
like, for example, charge noise. I don't know
a single platform that doesn't care about charge
noise. Charges are in reality. We care about
reality. Right? We care about interfaces. There's interfaces
affect everything.
Everything will have charging eyes on it. Understand
that. Yeah. That's very transferable.
How how do you think about gate compilation.
Right? It's the same regardless of what you're
mapping it to? You have certain considerations that
are very... That apply quite versatile. Right? So
there's a lot more transferable than you would
think, but getting to understand what really makes
or breaks a given technology
allows you to better navigate
going forward. Right? Well, that's great. Well, thanks,
Stephanie. Thanks for for that advice,
no on how to get into the quantum
industry and also telling us about the company
as well. Thanks for coming on the podcast.
Oh, it's been great. Thank you so much
for your very insightful questions.
That was Stephanie Simmons of Photon inc.
We added during the commercial
Quantum global 20 24 conference in London, which
is organized by economist
impact.
Stay tuned over the next few weeks for
more
conversations
inspired by that conference.
We're getting really excited about the launch of
Physics World live. A series of online panel
debates in which you can join leading scientists,
discussing hot topics and physics
and put your questions to the experts
First up is physics World live quantum sensors,
which is on the second of July 20
24.
You'll find out why quantum sensors could be
the quantum
2 point knot technology
with the greatest
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Where we mark the 7
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Finally, on the 20 first of November, there's
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We'll discuss how efficient batteries
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green economy.
Register now for all 3 free events by
going to the Physics World live section of
the Physics World website.
I'm afraid that's all the time we have
for this week's podcast.
Thanks to Stephanie Simmons for chatting with me
today, and a special thanks to our producer
Red isles.
We'll be back again next week.