Physics.
World. Hello and welcome to the Physics World Stories Podcast. I'm Andrew Gleer.
In this episode,
we're gonna be exploring the Bell Bonnell Graduate Scholarship Fund,
a fund set up by leading physicist,
professor Dame Jocelyn Bell Bonnell and the Institute of Physics to encourage
greater diversity in physics by assisting PhD students from underrepresented
groups. Later in the podcast,
we'll hear from one of those successful PhD students who's using that fund to
study stars in the Magnic clouds. But first,
here's Professor Helen Gleason.
I'm the Cavendish professor of Physics at the University of Leeds. Um,
but I hold roles within the Institute of Physics as well. Um,
I'm the chair of the Benell Graduate Scholarship Fund, and I'm also,
um, the institute's, um,
representative to Council for Inclusion and Diversity.
And that means I do things like chair, um,
the Inclusion and Diversity Committee for the Institute of Physics at the
moment, the Dale Graduate Fund,
grad Graduate Scholarship Fund to give it is full title, um, was it,
it's a fund that supports, um,
students who are minority students in physics, um,
to either study or complete their PhD. So the fund was,
was established when Jocelyn Benell, um, won the,
the Breakthrough Prize. Um, in 2018, she won 3 million.
She gave that to the Institute of Physics, all of it.
Instead of giving it to her family, she gave it to the Institute of Physics.
And, um, she specifically wanted to improve, uh,
diversity in physics, that she's,
she's on record many times for saying how important it is to us. And, and,
and of course, I fully agree, uh, as a community to have better diversity.
And, um, so she, she gave this, uh, money to them to set up this fund, um,
to support people who wouldn't otherwise have been able to do, um,
postgraduate study or complete postgraduate study, uh, in physics,
um, to, to, to be able to do so. Um, I got us to chair that, the,
the, the group that looks after giving that money out. Um,
and so as part of that role, I've been doing that since 2019.
We've had four cohorts through. And as part of that role,
what we needed to do, um, as a, as a group, as a committee,
was to work out actually how we could, um, how we could do that,
how we could fairly and transparently, um,
give away Jocelyn's money.
Before we get into the practicalities of how the fund is allocated,
in case you don't know,
Jocelyn Benell is an astrophysicist from Northern Ireland whose work as a
postgraduate student at Cambridge's Cavendish Laboratory led to the discovery of
Paul sars in 1967.
A pulsar is a highly magnetized,
rotating neutron star that emits beams of electromagnetic radiation
out of its magnetic poles because the emission is seen as a series of regular
pulses. Bell Bennell and her supervisor, Anthony Hewish,
nicknamed the first Signal as Little Green Man or L G m won.
That breakthrough was recognized in the 1974 Nobel Prize in physics.
But as many of you will know,
bell Bennell was infamously overlooked with the prize going to Hewish and the
English radio astronomer, Martin Ryle, the snub, never deterred Benell.
And she went on to have a very successful career in astrophysics and has always
worked tirelessly to promote diversity in physics.
The special breakthrough prize that she won in 2018 recognized Nell's Scientific
contributions and her inspiring leadership in the scientific community.
Here's a short clip of Jocelyn Benell speaking to the Physics World Weekly
Podcast back in 2019,
describing her motivations for setting up the fund. The.
Plan is to increase diversity in physics departments
in the UK and Ireland because the I o P covers both the UK and
Ireland. Um,
I do believe that diversity strengthened a place. Um,
there are echoes of my own PhD studentship there because I turned
up in Cambridge, um,
to be one of the few women and one of the few people who wasn't from the south
of England, and it felt quite alien. Uh,
and I wasn't sure I was going to make the grade and was working very hard.
And that's really how the discovery of Pulsar came about.
So I have this maybe vain hope that by increasing the diversity
in physics departments,
there'll be more people who are feeling a bit
unconventional, um, outta the normal mold,
working like the clappers,
thinking a little differently and maybe finding things.
The first thing that we needed to do was to, to understand, uh,
what what was meant by the minority groups in physics. Okay. And that was,
that was fine because that had been defined, um, as part of the gift and,
and setting up the, the, the, the fund.
I think then the next challenge was to think about what that actually meant in
terms of, um, supporting people who wouldn't otherwise have been able to, um,
to do their PhDs. So we came up with, with two kinds of award,
one we call a top-up award, and that can be an amount, um,
up to 10,000 pounds, um,
where somebody has hit something that's, um, really, um,
putting the completion of their p PhD at risk. Okay. This could be,
um, a health issue. It could be, um, a childcare issue. Um,
it could be a whole range of different things. And,
and of course there are things in place in universities and the research
councils for many of these things, but not all of them.
And so that's the first kind of cohort that, um, we can support where,
where things, uh, where people just need that additional,
additional bit of funding. The second, um,
kind of award we make is, is, um,
a co-funded full award for someone to do their PhD.
So it's a full scholarship, it's a fully funded scholarship,
and we give something like half of the funds for that. And, um,
we decided that we wanted the institution, um,
to give the other half. Okay. And the reason for that was twofold.
One was to make money go further so we could actually, um, fund more people. Um,
but the second was to make sure that they had, um,
really invested in, in what we're, what it is we're trying to do. And,
you know, I think if you just give money away, um, it's easy to just receive it.
Um, but on the other hand, if you've co-invested in something, then, uh,
there's a different feel to what it is, um, that, that we're trying to achieve.
So that was one of the, the criteria we came up with the other that we decided,
um, you know, we, we,
we want people to be recommended to us for,
for these awards by the universities. And that's, um, you know,
there are all sorts of complicated reasons for that.
But the simplest one is that we didn't want to be making the judgment about
whether or not somebody was right to do a PhD with a particular supervisor.
You know, it's important that judgment is made by the,
by the individuals concerned, and it's a funding decision, um, at,
at that point. Um, the,
the other thing though is that we were very clear that we wouldn't,
we didn't want to rank list, okay?
So we do not distinguish between BS, E and, and mfi.
And we do that deliberately because we know that there are people who, um,
just simply can't afford to do a pa um, an mfi, right? You know,
they don't have, uh, parental backing the student loans as we know,
particularly in this cost of crisis, cost of living crisis, um, may,
may not be enough on their own. Um, so that's the first thing we,
we know that there, there are people who choose to do a bsc, um,
for all sorts of reasons. And one of our minority groups, you know,
are people who come from disadvantaged backgrounds. Um, the, the other,
um, reason we don't want to go down. Um,
we, we don't. So we, we, we want to hear about people's academic, um,
achievements, um, but we don't rank them. We, we, we look at them,
we try to look at them, um, in, in the whole, um,
because we also know that some people don't do as well as they might,
um, for all, again, for all sorts of reasons, which relate to the barriers to,
to people from disadvantaged groups. And it might be because of disabilities,
might be because they have to hold down a job, um, at the same time as studying.
Um, it, it might be for mental health reasons. Um, it, you know,
there are a whole range of reasons why people might not be the top of the class.
And, you know,
we are really aware that the normal way of handing out PhD scholarships is to go
to the top of the list of marks and work your way down.
And that misses so many people from diverse backgrounds who are,
you know, fantastic, um, candidates for PhDs. They're amazing candidates,
but they just don't even get a look in. So we, we,
so we thought about all of the criteria rule on the website, um,
but we thought about them quite carefully so that we could, um,
it's all very well wanting to support people from minority groups, but actually,
actually having a process that does that was, was really important to us.
Um, so I'm gonna ask you a question which I, I'm upset that I have to ask,
but there are people who need the answer to it. What,
why is it important to have?
Right. Okay. Because, um, you know, I, there's,
there's lots of research that says that the best ideas and the best
solutions come up from te come from teams who, uh, are very diverse,
um, and, and who have different ways of thinking,
different ways of approaching problems. And, you know, if what we do is have a,
a cohort of people in physics that all look the same and think in the same
way and have the same values, then we are restricting ourselves and,
and we won't be the best visits community that we can be. I mean, there,
there are all sorts of reasons why it's important for the individuals as well.
You know, there's, there's the fundamental, um, fairness,
arguments about giving people equal opportunities and,
and understanding barriers and tackling them. So for individuals,
it's really important that they have those opportunities in the same way as
someone who's had a different pathway, has opportunities. So, you know, that's,
that's another part of it. But as a community,
we should care because it really matters to us, um,
in terms of how successful we'll be and how innovative we'll be. Um,
and you know, how much we will push those, those physics boundaries and that,
that we want to push.
You personally. You've, I mean, you've, you've done all right, right?
But as in your journey, have you seen the need for.
It? Oh, gosh, yes. So, you know, I, you, you're absolutely right. I've done it.
Okay. Um, I was, uh, so I went into physics at,
um, uh, uh, in, in, I started my degree in 1980,
and I came from a, a school, um,
where as I joined the school into the high school, um,
girls didn't do maths past the age of 14 because, you know, girls, a,
they don't need it, and b, you know, hey, they don't like it. And, and,
and sadly we still hear that, right? There was a big kerfuffle, um,
about people actually still saying that. So, you know, that was 50,
50 years ago, 40, 50 years ago. Um, so, so fighting that,
that kind of, um, that kind of bias and on, you know,
whether it's unconscious or real, um, has been, has been absolutely, um, vital.
So I came from a very ordinary background. It wasn't an all girls school. Um,
when I, um, started my career in physics, um,
I did a math physics degree. There were, there were not many women on,
on that course.
There were more than there were in the physics course because maths actually
does better at attracting women. But nonetheless, um, uh, very few.
I was the first female lecturer in physics appointed at Manchester,
um, in 1989, which is shocking. Yep. Okay. It's a disgrace.
Um, so I'm, I'm proud of it on the one hand, but I, I also think it's terrible.
O on the other hand, um, you know, I,
I had one woman lecturer, um, who,
who was actually in maths, not in physics. Um, so, you know, just seeing that,
that this subject is for everybody. And, and so that's just gender, you know,
that's just gender. Um,
and so seeing that that physics is a subject for everybody has been a long
standing problem, and we've done better on gender. Um,
but that problem is not fixed. You know,
the proportion of women is still too low.
But if you then look at other minority groups, um, we,
we do very badly as a community, um, even against the national statistics,
and we're good at doing statistics, right?
We're good at working out where it is, we think we should be,
as long as we've got the data. Um,
but there's no way of cutting it other than say, saying that, you know,
the physics community is very good at recruiting middle class white men
and very poor at recruiting people from other backgrounds.
And is the Melbourne EL Scholarship Fund making a difference to.
That? I hope so. I think it is. You know, so, um,
absolutely to the individuals we've now made 31 awards, and of course,
some of them haven't yet started because we've only just, um, we've only just,
uh, uh, made those awards. They'll be announced fairly soon. Um,
but to, to 31 individuals, absolutely we have,
I hope we have to more than that. I know that some universities,
when they heard that we were doing this, um, said, you know,
we want to put candidates forward for this, but actually we will fund them,
whatever, because we think this is so important.
So I think there are more than that. I think, um,
the fact that you can see the inspiring stories of our be now scholars on the
website acts as, as, um, you know,
complete inspiration, um, to, to many who read them. But,
but not just that showing that people who are a bit different,
who have had to overcome struggles can do it and will be supported in doing
so. Um, I, I think, you know, that's the start of making a wider difference.
And,
and our be scholars are committed to being ambassadors for the fund.
So, you know, they're doing that in all sorts of ways. Um, some of them are,
are, are influencing policy decisions. Um, some of them are, uh,
going out and talking to schools, you know, some of them have podcasts. So I,
I think that's also really important,
and I hope that our process, you know,
one of the things we do is we ask about the suitability,
we ask about the record of the supervisor and what process the university's
gone through in making their selection. And in doing that,
we wanted the to just reflect on what a supportive
environment was and whether their process was fair
and transparent and had sufficient flexibility
to not just mire itself in, you know,
reproducing the same outcome as, as we've had for a very long time.
And, and I've, I've spoken about the BE Health Fund and, and our, our process,
um, you to, to people from the states, to people, uh, you know, um,
in different disciplines and so on. And, and, you know, it is,
it is a bit of a trailblazer. It's a new way of doing things. So I, I,
I think it is, it's not necessarily the perfect way,
but it is helping to make people reflect on, um, you know,
how we build our community going forward. Mm-hmm. .
But you not, not everybody has, you know,
Dame Jocelyn to give them the money to start these things off. No.
No, they don't. And so, you know, some universities are, are, are,
um, you know, looking at how they can have, um,
do you mean in terms of disciplines or in terms of, oh, well, both really.
Cause actually we can't, we,
we could fund loads more scholars if we had more money.
And the Institute of Physics has done a great job, um, you know,
adding to the pot. So, uh, and you know,
that that's been really important to us to increase the number of awards that we
can make. So it's not just a one-off static thing. Um, you know,
if anyone's listening to this and wants to make a donation,
like there's a way of doing that, just get in contact with the Bell, um, fund,
um, administrators at, at, at the Institute of Physics. Um, so, so no,
not everybody does have that starting point. Um,
I think universities are investing their own money in this kind of things, uh,
in this kind of, um, award and support. Um, there are other,
um, benefactors that are doing that. You know,
universities do have money that, that is, are given to them by donors.
And, you know, I hope that, I hope that, you know,
the processes mean I, if, if there are changes in processes, maybe we,
we won't need to be doing this going forward. But in the meantime,
the more people that,
that see that there's something exciting and important that they can do here,
um, you know, the better.
Hopefully, as you say, people listening will want to add money to the pot,
but what if people are listening and they think, well,
I would like to apply to be one of the scholars. What do they do?
Yeah, so our next round is, um, it's open in the, in the autumn.
It's all done through their, through a host university.
So it's really important to start talking to someone who might be a potential
supervisor as soon as possible. Um, make sure that you're eligible, you know,
the eligibility criteria on the are on the website. Um,
I've just written an article, which is in physics world,
which gives quite a bit more detail as well. And I hope that that's accessible.
It's, it sort of says a bit more about what it is we're trying to do.
Just to say Helen's article is free to read now on the physics world website,
physics world.com.
Um, but yeah, get in touch with, with a prospective supervisor. Um,
our deadlines are usually in January. Um, so that's our deadline,
but universities will have deadlines before then. Um, and we usually hold,
I mean, I'm sure we'll do it again,
but every November we have a q and a session, which is just open to anybody,
whether it's supervisors, postgraduate, admissions tutors, students themselves,
um, to come along to and just ask questions,
ask anything that they're curious about. Um, so, so I would advise people,
but the first thing is, you know, look for a supervisor, uh, supervisor's,
really important. The supervisor student relationship is really important. Um,
if you are one of the people who, um, would be looking for a Topup award,
obviously you've already got a supervisor, um,
you still need to be put forward by your university.
So just check the process and, and eligibility,
and we're happy to answer any questions anytime. Um,
there's an email address for, for the fund on,
on the Institute of Physics website. Um, you know,
please do get in touch if you've got any questions. We're happy to try and help.
I'd just like to say, you know, uh,
the institute have really put themselves behind this. You know,
they've given great support, not just to administering, um,
that the initial gift and, and, and working, working that through,
but also the fundraising that they're doing, um,
so that we can make double the number of awards each year that we could make in,
in the first year. Okay. So that's made a, a huge difference. But,
but also to the committee who work alongside me, um, you know,
they're silent in the background. Um, they're, they're hugely important to, to,
to,
so that we can constantly reflect on whether we've got things as right as
we can. They put a lot of work into assessing the applications and, and,
and then go through, through, uh, the interview process. And of course,
they do that as volunteers. And you know, it, it's, it,
it is a privilege to do it. I'll say that from my own personal perspective,
but nonetheless, it's work.
And I'm very grateful to all of them for giving up their time for doing that.
As it stands,
just 17% of members of the Institute of Physics identify as
female.
For men and women who are black l lgbtqia a plus have a disability
or from lower socioeconomic backgrounds,
membership rates are even more out of step with the rest of
the population.
Joanna Sikka is a physicist who has been successful in being accepted
onto the Benell graduate fund. Joanna says that in physics,
she's a minority. As a Polish immigrant, as a woman,
and coming from a working class background.
I'm Joanna, I'm a third year astrophysics student at the University of Surrey.
I specialize in something called galactic archeology. I focus on, uh,
something called, um, local group galaxies.
In particular the manian clouds. These are galaxies that you can see,
maybe not from the northern hemisphere where we are,
but from the southern hemisphere. Um, they, you can see them with a naked eye.
So they really are quite in close touch to us.
And so they're really a beautiful place to study galaxy formation and
evolution, because it can resolve every single star. There were big,
fancy telescopes and really studied their chemistry and, um,
their ages and really understand how this galaxy has formed and evolved over
the last 12 billions of years. But when I was a child, I, uh,
always wanted to know how things work. And that sort of childlike curiosity.
I think when you get older,
the childlike curiosity starts to sort of be applied to things like school and,
uh, and physics and how do things around me work,
and then how do things up there work and you just keep going and keep going and
keep going. And suddenly you, you are interested in how the universe works.
, um, yeah, no, it's, uh, that,
I think that's how it started really with me. I kept going and, uh,
I found physics at school really, really interesting. Super cool.
Astrophysics was so awesome.
I think the pretty pictures always helped with astrophysics and, you know,
I found it difficult at school. I found it a bit, uh, challenging,
I think is the word, but I, I just kept going cuz I, I kind of listened to,
you know, what my heart is saying, wh which is, this feels right,
I really enjoy this and I really want to pursue it.
Are there many pretty pictures involved in what you are doing at the moment?
Luckily, yes. Uh, I use optical telescopes, so I study the light. We see,
I resolve 20 billion stars in a small galaxy called the,
the small Mag Club. And yes, there are pretty pictures guaranteed.
I think most of my time though is trying to, um,
write codes to study these pictures better. But, uh,
yes, I,
I think I've sort of made that natural bridge between what made me curious in
the first place versus where I am at now.
Are there particular telescopes that you are using?
Yes, I use a dark into camera in, um, Chile. It's a four meter telescope,
and you might have heard of the dark energy survey. Well, it's all,
it's all tied to this idea of dark energy. Uh, but uh,
there are a lot of applications of these telescopes, right? So,
so this telescope, um,
it's a ground-based telescope and it has a excellent view of the mag and clouds
in the, in the southern hemisphere, you know,
in Chilean desert where you can really see these things so beautifully.
How did you get interested in that then?
I remember when I was, uh, applying for PhD positions, it's,
it's like the job market. It's quite difficult to find a PhD position and I, I,
I was sure I really wanted this,
but there was also a lot of doubt in the back of my mind, which was, you know,
is this really right for me? It's quite a, it's quite a big risk,
higher award scenario here. And, um, I,
it's, it's so happened in the person that I was sort of working with,
cuz at the time I was sort of on a, on like a master's, well,
I was on an integrated master's. I was on like a placement,
and the person that looked after me on that placement, she, um, was at my,
my university.
She got to sort of talk to me once and kind of get to know me a bit better.
And then, and she really encouraged me to apply for the Bell,
but now Graduate Scholarship fund. And at the time I thought, oh, you know,
this is crazy. Like, I, I don't qualify for this stuff. Like I,
I'm used to like, you know, not really never going for it. Like I, I,
I don't really apply to things because I just sort of have that mindset of,
you know, why would they choose me, why would they, all that stuff. So I,
I remember getting an email and just dismissing it completely. Uh, but she, she,
you know, she, she pushed me for it. She pushed me for it, uh,
and we applied together and she, yeah, she was, uh,
she helped me out a lot with it. And, uh, we got the scholarship. Uh,
so it was really an amazing thing, you know, put in all the, the,
the financial stuff aside. It's, it's really nice to have that recognition of,
Hey, you've done it. You know, I've, I was quite used to sort of,
I've never won anything at school. Uh,
I was quite used to sort of just trying to keep up with
everything. I, I found physics difficult, not because I was, you know,
not, not working hard enough. It's just, I, I just found it difficult.
It's a hard subject. And I think I was,
I grew up in a sort of a household or like a mindset, you know,
if you're not really naturally good at something,
maybe it's not really great for you, you know,
you're not an Einstein kind of thing.
And I think this kind of mindset is about physics, let's put it this way.
Now you, you're not, yeah, you're know, in Einstein,
you're not a smart male guy, I don't know,
but you know, you are, you're just yourself. Do.
You still have that mindset?
I think I'm very lucky now that with the Be Now Fund,
there is community of people who are differently alike.
We're quite alike in our sort of experiences
of being a, a diverse person in physics,
physics or maybe not fitting the mold or the classical mold of a person doing
physics.
And I think being in our community and sharing our experiences,
although unique, they are, they are the same.
And so I'd like to say that this mindset is,
when I think about it, it has helped a lot with this mindset of, you know,
we don't really fit in or maybe you're not really good enough to do this physics
stuff, you know, it's so, I, I like to say it.
I don't think like that anymore and it's helped me a lot,
but I can't say for sure.
When you look around the physics community today,
does it look like you don't fit in?
Personally, I must say,
I think I'm really lucky because at least the physics department,
where I am at at my university, I think it's one of the most,
I think from, from speaking to other people, it's very diverse.
It is very diverse. I think everyone is made very,
what feel made to feel very welcome. But there are definitely departments where,
or you know, people I've met who just don't quiet.
Yeah. You see that difference between, between you two, it's, it's,
there is a difference, but I think it's, it is getting much better.
I think there's a lot of progress happening. You know, it's,
it's the best way I can describe. It's a bit of a butterfly effect, right?
Where you have a butterfly flat at its wings and when, you know,
it just keeps going.
So hopefully that will keep going for the next 10 or 20 years to come.
But I think things have definitely improved, but there is still work to do.
There is still work to.
Do. And do you think that that improvement is related to the Bell Now
graduate prize?
Yes, I can definitely see that making a difference. Um,
I know that one of the criteria for the fund is that
they're, they already interested in seeing what the supervisory team is like.
And obviously
if you're not really in a supervisory team that understands these diverse things
and you're not really gonna be able to, to um, sort of fit,
fit the ethos of what the fund is about. I think it,
I think the fund has really helped trying to bridge the gap,
I think sort of awareness of this, these issues in this community and,
and the fact that, um, you know, Jocelyn Beba now herself,
she felt like an outcast when she was to bring her PhD and look at where she is
now. You know, these,
these kind of reminders are very needed in the community and I think the fund
really helps with these reminders.
Do you meet often? Yes, we.
Meet at least once a year. Um, obviously with Covid it was more difficult, uh,
but, uh, at least once a year and it's,
it's very nice to share the experiences during these, these sessions.
We also have, uh, a little chat, uh, me and the other awardees of Aria.
We have a little chat so we can discuss sort of how things are going on our end
and support each other if need be. But, uh, I think, yeah, I think the,
I think there's [inaudible] has been successful.
There is also a bit of an online presence. Uh,
I've definitely been part of that, so that's been great. So yes, I, I think the,
yeah, I think the community does support itself.
Are there any downsides to the, to the scheme?
I want to say the scheme should accept more people,
but I think that's completely fair. I think that's with every scheme.
So I remember when we first started, cuz I was part of the first cohort,
so it was very much fresh and very much trying to work things out.
I think a lot of us really wanted to do more outreach stuff ourselves and have
the schemes give us a platform to do it.
But because of Covid of course this was more difficult,
things got a bit dropped, so I, I know that, um, a lot of us have had ideas on,
yeah, like I said, like diversity, like, um, perhaps local stuff. But, uh,
it would be nice if the scheme sort of try to support that or maybe di
maybe had a bit more sessions on, um,
helping bring your diversity ideas or diversity experiences to the
community, you know, through,
through helping you advise you on how to establish mentoring platforms or any
other idea. You may have some kind of advisory thing going on there.
I know we really try to do things as,
as an amba as ambassadors of the fund to help diversity in, uh,
in our respective areas. But it's been quite difficult with, you know,
recovering from all of the, the stuff of the last years.
Yeah, no, fair enough. You're in this community.
Do you look at what the other graduates and are looking at researching and
think, oh, that's interesting.
Yes, for sure. And astronomy for sure. Um,
actually I met with one of the other awardees at a conference last year that
looks at exoplanets and that is something I've never had any exposure to just
because of the natural way my, um, my,
my department just doesn't really look at exoplanets and so that was really
interesting to hear about her work, for example,
read about her work on a website.
Of course we'll post a link to that website on the physics world website,
physics world.com in the article associated with this podcast episode where you
can read about those exoplanets and all the other work being done by the
successful graduates in the Benell graduate fund.
But I wondered once this PhD is out of the way, what's next for Joanna? Three.
Years is sort of the standard funding for everybody and then you have six more
months as an extension you can apply to. Um,
I'm definitely going to apply for that because I, I must say,
I think Covid affected a lot of, um, people's supervisory teams.
This definitely happened with me for sure. You know,
trying to figure out how to work with somebody over distance and, you know,
things that I, I tend to be quite stubborn,
so if I have like a problem in, in my work,
I I really train work on it for a few days trying sober myself because,
you know, I'm not, I don't really wanna bother the other person,
but when I think it's very normal to ask for help and
you know, it's,
it's the kind of thing that's made easier when you're not over distance,
for example.
So the six months then you might go to industry or stay in academia.
I am definitely considering both options. I would like to say in astronomy.
I think that I am now good of the fund because of the awareness of Ed
I and diversity. I'm quite, I'm,
I I feel quite equipped to say in astronomy because I feel quite equipped with
the knowledge of what's normal and what's just not acceptable in treatment of,
you know, everyone in this, in this, um, in this field for example, you know,
if there's a whole thing about pay gap for example, uh,
I'm quite well versed now in, you know, what's, what's, what's normal about,
you know, I'm, I'm quiet. Uh, I feel like I,
my confidence has been quite boosted by this fund for sure.
So I know that applying for things now is a good thing.
I think I never used to apply for anything.
I used to feel quite disheartened about doing it. I never really did it. Uh,
I feel like now looking back on my PhD journey,
I've definitely applied for a lot of talks, a lot of summer schools,
a lot of conferences, and they have been successful.
And I don't think I would've done that if I was never really pushed by somebody
to say, you know, you should apply for this. And I say, you know why?
I mean I don't, I don't think I stand a chance but just do it and then just,
it just works out on its own. You know, you don't get it, you don't get it,
but if you do, it's great. You don't get anything. It's not a reflection of you.
There's also options outside of academia and it's important to respect that uh,
you don't have to stay in one job all your life and if you decide
academia is not for you anymore because academia is a bit of a funny system,
right? It's not, the job security isn't,
isn't always there and the salary doesn't always match your working hours
for example. And you, it's so many factors at play. It's,
you are not a failure if you want to leave academia and go into industry.
So really it's, it's okay.
Just a quick aside,
speaking of somebody who's moved from industry into academia,
you're not necessarily a failure if you move the other way,
at least I hope Anyway, back to Joanna,
if somebody was thinking of applying to the Bedale graduate fund,
what would you say to them? But.
The question was colleges me off guard. Cuz I just never,
it's such a personal thing I feel like,
and I feel like it's quite important to when writing these statements really
dig into your reasons for why you have done done the things you
have done. Because I feel like a lot of people,
I feel like a lot of people
brush aside their achievements or brush aside their
difficult experiences and stay modest and that's okay,
but wanna blind for things. You wanna,
these people who have no idea about all these things,
you really should look at everything you've achieved and state every single
thing because it's so easy to just sort of forget about the good
stuff and it's so easy to focus on maybe negatives and be hard on yourself, but,
but I would say make sure you really just,
just think about everything you've achieved. Even if you think it's small, it,
it might really be consequential, it might really matter. Brilliant.
Yeah, lots of people struggle with the old, you know,
blowing your own trumpet thing, but that's the moment to do it, right? Yeah,
for sure. When you're.
Applying for something, for sure. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah,
I think my, my per from personal experience, my supervisor's very good at that.
I think she, she's very good at encouraging people to write about this and that,
you know, whenever I,
I write something and I give it to her and she knows my achievements better and
well better. Well she knows my achievements, uh, well and the PhD,
she always adds in things and I just think, wow, that was,
I thought I was very inconsequential, but obviously it mattered. So yeah,
I think, you know, my supervisor is female as well,
so it's quite nice to have that role model. I think the,
I think the fund, the,
the requirement to have a good supervisory team that's aware of EDI has really
helped me personally cuz it made sure I chose right supervisor for my own
background or life experiences. But I think a lot of people,
there isn't much choice sometimes when they have,
when they apply for PhDs and they have to go with what they have.
And so they might fall into the wrong supervisory team and they're not really
aware of this until it's a bit too late.
I'd like to thank Helen Gleason and Joanna Ska for talking to me for this
episode of the podcast.
And if you'd like to hear more of that interview from the Physics World Weekly
podcast with Jocelyn Bell Benell,
you'll find a link to it alongside the article for this episode of the Physics
World Stories podcast on physics world.com.
We'll be back next month when we'll be looking at how artificial intelligence is
changing physics and the role of the physicist bringing exciting opportunities,
but also developments to be wary of. For this month though,
I'd like to leave the last word to Joanna Sikka.
I look at different kinds of stars, different ages, different medalist. Yeah.
I focus on something called Stella Populations and in my head it's quite
fascinated in that, uh,
style is so different and so unique and they all make up a whole galaxy.
And I find it a really pretty bridge between what I'm passionate about,
which is diversity, and then my work, which is big diversity of stars, right?
And analyzing every single one of them.
And they're all just so important because then you can see how,
how this galaxy is formed over time and it's a complete picture.
While if you miss out a certain kind of star,
certain kind of population, sort of certain age or certain, certain type,
then that picture is not complete.
Physics world.