Physics world. Hello and welcome to the Physics World Stories podcast.
I'm Andrew G. Lester. And in this episode,
we're gonna hear from people involved in the fascinating research into the
feasibility of para astronauts being done by teams working for the
European Space Agency. I wanted to know what Issa's motivations were.
So I went along to their media conference just to note that the conference took
place online and there were some technical difficulties.
So my apologies for the slight audio interference here,
but I think it's worth it to hear Issa's perspective. Here's Issa,
director General m Warner.
First of all, diversity is not a burden for us.
Diversity is an asset for us, and we know that at Iza because since its,
uh, creation in 1975, Iza had, um,
member states around Europe.
And I can tell you from my own experience that you see really different cultures
from people from Northern and Southern Europe, from Eastern and Western Europe.
So therefore, diversity for ISA is an asset already, uh,
looking to the nationalities. But of course,
diversity is also something which we are looking now into a more protest sense,
looking to gender, sexual orientation, ethnically beliefs,
age and disabilities, and other characteristics. So for us,
as an equal opportunity unity employer, um,
it's really important to have diversity as it helps us to make
things better. Um, and therefore we would like at this type in the new,
in the new search, uh, 20 21, 20 22,
we would really particular encourage women to apply, uh, because,
uh, it's very interesting and,
and supportive if we have mixed teams, uh,
with different people from different background with different gender,
et cetera, as I said. But we have even more exciting news this time.
For the first time in human history,
Eza will be selecting persons with physical disabilities who will
take part in either Paris or out project.
So we did a first trial some four years ago when we invited
eight people with disabilities out of five European countries and
made some parabolic flights with them. And this was a very nice experience,
and we believe it's time also to assess the feasibility
of sending astronauts with physical disabilities into space.
David Parker is Issa's Director of Human and Robotic Exploration.
All of us see at E C C diversity as not just an aspiration,
but something we have to live in our everyday lives. And, uh,
we all witness people with various, uh, disabilities,
or let's say differently abled people taking their place in society,
in politics, on our TV screens, we've all marveled at the Para Olympians.
So these ordinary people that have overcome extraordinary challenges to succeed
in life, we need people in Issa who can succeed.
We already have people working at Issa who have, uh, disabilities,
and we need more of them to join us. But, um, uh,
but we visible representation is always important. And so therefore,
we've been asking ourselves what are the barriers preventing us to fly a
physically disabled astronaut to the I s s and to work there?
So therefore, alongside the Core Astronaut Selection Project,
we've assessed how to select a physically disabled individual to join the
Astronaut Reserve in the first instance. And subsequently,
we're gonna investigate the technical and operational feasibility of
implementing a meaningful and useful mission by such a person.
Now, this possibility raises many, many questions,
most of which we do not have answers for yet. Obviously, we don't have our own,
uh, crew vehicles to fly to Space Station today in Europe.
So obviously we need to work with all of the i s s partners on this,
and obviously, safety is a vital consideration. Nevertheless,
we think that if we don't ask the questions, we'll not find the answers.
And this is the very essence of exploration.
So we know that in presenting this idea today,
there's a very fine line between raising expectations and the reality
that it will take us time to find answers to all these questions.
We need to work with experts in the field, a mayor,
we need to work with the providers of the space, transportation.
And there's a very, uh, I mean maybe also with, uh, technology companies,
medical technology companies,
and maybe by this we'll open up new partnerships for our human research
program and maybe have far-reaching, uh,
implications for our eventual lunar and Mars exploration. So we have a,
we feel we have a responsibility to at least try and make this happen and lead
by example. So we hope to push the envelope, uh,
on the topic of disability at work and inspire people with special needs to
apply to other roles in ISA and more widely in the, in the space industry.
So, let me be precise.
We are looking for an individual who is psychologically, cognitively,
technically and professionally qualified to be an astronaut,
but has certain classes of physical limitation that would normally prevent them
from being selected through the requirements we normally have.
So right now we're at, uh, step zero, the door is closed to such people,
we want to change that, and we want to go from zero to one.
In late 2022, that one was announced as John McFall.
John was born in the south of the UK in 1981. Now the age of 19,
he suffered a motorbike accident that resulted in the amputation of his right
leg. He was already a keen athlete by that point,
and has gone on to many successes,
including the bronze medal in the 100 meters at the Beijing Paralympic Games in
2008, and the Paralympic world champion in the two,
200 meters in 2007.
John has also served as a foundation doctor in the British National Health
Service.
We need to announce they were looking for a candidate with a physical
disability. And I looked at the person's specification and I thought, wow,
this is, this is really aspirational.
This is a very brave and very bold thing to do. Uh,
and with my broad scientific background and vast range of experiences, I,
I felt compelled to try and help ia, uh, answer this question.
Can we get someone with a physical disability, uh,
to do meaningful work in space?
I think that I can bring lots of things to feasibility study,
but I think in particular, I can bring inspiration, you know,
inspiration that science is for everyone,
but inspiration that potentially space is for everyone.
The European Space Agency have something called topical teams projects funded by
the space agency that support scientific research by creating forums
based on a specific topic of interest to Issa and its future scientific
direction. The topical team,
considering the feasibility of para astronauts started its work on Friday,
the 1st of July. Invited to be part of it was Mike Miller Smith.
Mike is the c e o of Arability, and I caught up with him earlier this month.
Arability is a charity which exists to make aviation accessible to
people with disabilities. So in its simplest sense, we do that practically.
We, uh,
support all sorts of disabled people with literally every disability type of
physical disability, perhaps a sensory impairment or a learning disability,
even a mental health, uh, problem. We all give somebody access.
So we've got a number of light aircraft,
which have been especially specially adapted with, um,
modifications to make them accessible.
We have special equipment like the hoist that can lift, for example,
a wheelchair user out of their wheelchair and into the pilot seat, literally.
Um, so that's a really great physical way to introduce disabled people to the
magical flight.
Seeing the world from a new perspective and the challenges of learning to fly
have a really transformative effect through to the other end of what we do is
really about advocating the disabled people in the world of aviation and
aerospace.
So to hopefully demonstrate to organizations like airlines,
airports, manufacturers, um, more knowledge about disability,
so the services they provide, the people that they employ are disabled.
So hopefully having a bit of a society influence and benefit as well. So,
uh, yeah, there's a lot on our plates, but really in its simplest sense,
it's about making, uh,
the sky accessible to disabled people for fun, for travel,
and maybe even for a job.
I've always had an interest in aviation since I was sort of early teenage
years, really. Um, I, uh,
by chance came across aviation, lived relatively narrow and airfield,
and sort of popped along on my bike to go and find out more. Uh,
and they had a scheme to introduce young people to fly a connect ship. And, uh,
so I learned to fly glider when I was a teenager and quickly took
to that, became a,
a gliding instructor and became part of the junior British colliding team,
and sort of got bitten by the Barger. When I went to university,
I worked at the local flyer school at Cardiff Airport and got paid in flying
hours on, on a weekend and did my private pilot's license.
So from that point forward, I just loved it.
And Trey was training to become a,
a commercial pilot when unfortunately I started to become disabled.
So, uh, I have a, a, a disability called muscular dystrophy,
which effectively means that my muscles get weaker or weaker over time.
So when I started to notice, I wasn't as strong as I used to be. I, uh,
unfortunately had to change careers, but I've always stayed studied in aviation,
and now I'm working for the charity, helping other disabled people to fly.
The aircraft that we use are light aircraft,
so they're certified light aircraft, so two seaters, four seaters,
six seaters, um, and, um,
adapting mainly with a hand control such that somebody with a love disability
can operate the rudder and the brakes with their,
with their arm effectively rather than using their feet and legs. Can you.
Tell me a bit more about that? Seeing the world from another perspective?
One of our mantras, um, is that,
if I could fly, what else can I do?
So I think disabled people don't always get the chance to do exciting
things like fly an airplane.
They don't get the chance to perhaps make choices or even to experience
risk or make choices about risk.
So the sky is a very good environment to do all of those things.
So you're almost doing something that's active,
going out on an air field, getting in and out the airplane, however you do that.
Uh, learning about flight, learning about technology, the meteorology,
the airspace using the radio, the the systems on the airplane,
that stuff gets the brain working. Uh, and we find people,
if we even quite profound disabilities actually really, really take to that.
But obviously when you're up there seeing the, the world from above the cloud,
so that's just a great place to be. And we often hear that people say to us,
when I'm flying, I'm leaving my disability on the ground.
My brain is only thinking about good stuff. It's concentrating on the flight,
on the navigation of that amazing view.
And any pain or any other issues genuinely get left behind.
So we often hear that the only true respite from disability happens
in the.
Sky. And as we've heard, the sky is no longer the limit.
Because of our expertise over the last 30 years around
supporting disabled people in a challenging environment. Let's face it,
aviation, uh, airplanes, uh, it's,
it's somewhere where we've had to really work hard to think about accessibility,
practicalities safety, safety cases, adaptions to the aircraft,
so to, um, there's a lots of carry throughs and,
and similarities with the world of space flight with,
with low earth orbit in terms of, you know, accessibility, safety,
and sort of strategizing, uh, the medical side as well,
and what the challenges would be.
So we've been working with a topical team with some academics, uh,
and those involved in the space industry to look at the accessibility of space
and the challenges of disability, disabled people working in space,
I guess initially, and then the potential for space tourism, but ultimately the,
the real future, um,
human beings going into space and going into planetary.
We can't leave one fifth of the world's population behind people with
disabilities. You know,
we've got to work out practical ways that they can safely travel into space as
well. So, um, yeah,
we'd be working with the European Space Agency funded project to,
to look at this and see what some of the practicalities might be.
It's a real sort of privilege and really exciting to be, uh,
part of the future,
genuinely being part of projects which are going to change
humankind forever in the future. You know, we are gonna do this, you know,
I think anybody with any scientific interest shares that,
that belief that we, we we're gonna have to do this for, for so many reasons,
and to be part of effectively changing the d n a
of the future of space flight, future,
future of humankind to make sure disabled people could do this, uh,
is, uh, is brilliant. How.
Did it feel when you see the European Space Agency saying, right,
we're putting out a call for para astronauts?
It was exciting a year or two ago, uh, and even more exciting a few,
a few weeks ago. To see that John McFall has been announced as the first Easter,
uh, para astronaut, um, is, is really exciting.
Obviously the fact that he's a Brit is great, uh,
and the fact that actually he lives locally to here and we've already reached
out to John to maybe get into, uh,
come and fly one of our airplanes and show him some of the,
the technology we use. So, uh, we, we hope to, to meet John this year as well.
So, um, but in the background,
we've got these exciting projects looking at the physiology and the,
the medical requirements and the technical, uh,
realities of space flight for disabled people.
We'll hear from the lead scientist on this project later in the podcast,
but I wanted to know how it's been from Mike's.
Point, point of view. Uh, we, our new project started last year. This is the,
uh, uh, ISA funded power astronaut topical team, if you like,
with subject matter experts. So we've got academics, uh,
led by Keys College who are leading the project,
academic institutions from around Europe, uh,
ourselves as the sort of disabled community or representing the disabled
community. Uh, and we had a workshop, uh, last November,
which was great to get face-to-face really,
and a talk through and strategize and, uh,
almost look at that sort of top level one of the outcomes we're looking
for. Uh, so that was a nice classroom se session,
but then the weather was nice. So we opened the hangar doors,
got the airplanes out, and uh,
these space scientists went flying with disabled pilots.
So great that they can actually go up in the sky with a disabled pilot,
see the adapters that we use.
I think more sort of how, how, how it all ties together.
Would you go to space? I've,
I've asked that question to myself a few times,
and the answer is definitely yes. Yeah, surely there's,
there is a little bit of risk there, but, you know,
just to talk about risk briefly,
I think it's important to mention that disabled people are very familiar with
risk because sometimes we can't do things as quickly or as
easily as able bodied people.
And the analogy I use is that I have an adapted car,
which I drive myself,
which has got a computer controlled joystick steering system.
I can literally control the whole vehicle with my fingertips and I drive the
vehicle from my wheelchair and I have an electric, uh, hydraulic ramp,
which comes out the side of the vehicle,
which is how I drive the wheelchair out of the, out the vehicle.
But let's say I was driving like the motorway and the vehicle had a problem,
maybe caught fire, you know,
I know it takes me a minimum of five minutes to get out there outta the vehicle,
but I make a choice, an informed decision to effectively, you know,
my freedom at the very low risk of having that issue means that I make the
choice to drive a vehicle and have an independent life. So, um,
going into space, I realize it is, you know,
not the safest thing you could do at the moment, at least,
but I make an informed choice that I'm gonna do that.
And I think the balance of seeing the, the world without unique perspective,
and I'm a bit of a science geek as well,
the fact that I could do some science experiments up there and make a
contribution as well, hopefully would be, would be great. And I, you know,
I could almost be a Guinea pig, couldn't I?
With muscle weakness and breathing with a ventilator, you know,
what would that be possible in space? But interestingly,
given that all my muscles have gone already,
and one of the big problems in space is muscle wasting a muscle loss,
you know,
maybe I wouldn't be impacted quite so much cause I've got no muscle to waste.
So, you know, so there'd be some interesting questions to answer,
wouldn't there?
Sounds like you're volunteering, Mike. Well.
don't care what my other half say.
. Currently astronauts,
people go into space with the exception of a couple of people who've paid to do
it. And even though you've had to go through quite a lot of training,
are you thinking about it from that side as well?
Yeah, so I think there needs to be a paradigm shift in terms of thinking,
and clearly Issa are doing that, and I know Nassar are as well, um,
that they're sort of test pilot levels of fitness, the, you know,
PhD level of e education.
What we tended to see in the astronaut Carter communities of the world are
changing because if space is truly gonna become accessible,
it needs to represent the spectrum of ability and physical capability,
uh, within the wider population. So I think, you know,
again, early to fly is a good analogy.
Over the last 20 or five 30 years,
the disabled community has worked with aviation regulators to find safe ways
to train disabled people, to allow them to become licensed pilots,
even, you know, to travel on an airliner as a passenger,
although that's still fraught with some difficulty.
It is slowly improving in terms of technology used,
aircraft design,
and also attitudes and training of those providing that service.
So the space industry will need to reflect that. So we'll need to become, uh,
capable of thinking outside the box to try new things,
to look at new ways of managing risk, to adapt environments,
to adapt training techniques and adapt the way individuals are assessed
to, to go into space.
So I think it needs to be sort of all of the above to make it possible.
Because you've talked about this change in perspective from seeing the b the
world from above the clouds, obviously the,
the ultimate of that is the overview effect. This view that astronauts get,
people who go into space get the view of the blue marble. And is,
is that what draws you to want to go to space? Is it to look back at Earth? You.
Know, when you see interviews with astronauts,
you see them talking about their experience,
you can see the profound effect it's had on them as human beings.
Quite often now,
particularly with the concern around climate change and some of us sad political
issues and war and conflict we're seeing around the world, you know,
they all re they are all very resolute. It's saying,
when do you see the world from that perspective?
You can see it's one ecosystem, ultimately it's one mankind, it's
the planet we've gotta look after. And you don't see those political boundaries.
And I think to experience that clearly,
that would be an amazing viewpoint to have and to be part of,
of, of change. Again,
I know a lot of astronauts do try and get involved in some of that change and
being part of influencing the future and hopefully removing some of the
issues that we face. And I think, yeah, that, that would be the same for me.
Clearly the view is amazing. Clearly everyone would look out to them,
look out the window all day,
but to actually get that perspective and then use that for good
afterwards would be a, a real privilege.
We'll hear from Mike again later,
that this topical team as a research group that spans Europe,
and here's the leader of that research.
My name is, uh, I deju, I'm a lecturer, Kings College London.
My, I'm lecturing an anatomy and biomechanics. Um,
but today I'm here, I guess to talk about our space research. It's quite buried,
but, um, we've been, uh, given,
uh, funding and support from the European Space Agency, um,
for our topical team on the para astronaut project.
We try to understand the physiological, um, challenges,
but also advantages of, uh, um,
para astronaut in a space mission.
And recently we've been awarded a UK space agency, uh, grant,
uh, to create a community of people who want to engage with us, uh,
to make this, uh, mission successful.
Especially considered that Isa uh,
has recruited the first bar astronaut and is British.
How does that come about with, with issa? Do you, so do,
do they put it out there that they want some,
a research team to do this and you apply for.
It or? So I've been trying for years, so to get funding for this approaches,
and I guess I was, I was not with either right time. So I,
I submitted this to several places for years.
What happened is in 2021 European Space Agency, uh,
called for new astronauts,
and in that call they also include a call for par astronaut to be
involved with the feasibility project.
They call it Par Astronaut Feasibility Project. When that came up, uh,
was announced in 2021, I thought maybe this is the time.
So topical teams are, um, always, always open with visa.
So, um, they are three main theme and,
and the one we are interested is the health science anyway.
And essentially, uh, they provide use to submit an application.
They will provide funding for up to two years for experts to essentially,
um, provide opinions or, or through the literature on a particular topic,
and therefore then come up with recommendation and report and things to do next
in this particular area. And I guess, um, uh,
they needed somebody for this, uh,
and that's why we were successful with that. So.
But, so you've been thinking about this for a while, then. What,
why were you thinking about it?
Because I am. So to me, uh, the,
the disability experience by somebody is, has two elements.
One is the physical impairment. If we are thinking about physical disability,
one is the impairment per se,
but the other thing is the interaction with environment.
So if you think about the stupid example, maybe, but if you think about, um,
somebody in a wheelchair getting off an on and off a curb, uh, the,
the disability experience is higher if there is no,
um, slide sort of thing, or there is no, um,
so if the interaction with environment essentially becomes a barrier.
And I think that when we think about different environment and different
interaction with environments, space is a huge different interaction,
different environment.
And I believe that then the disability experience could be a lot lower,
if not becoming even an advantage in some cases with specifically disabilities.
So from a scientific point of view, I thought, well, we need to try to,
what we know about our physiology,
the human physiology is based on earth and it's a beautiful planet, um,
but has its own constraints.
And what happens in space when there is reduced garity, when,
um, you know, there are other conditions that we don't know much about,
or whatever we know about is based on able bo people with,
uh, without a disability and tends to be very fit, um,
traditionally. Um,
so we don't know the adaptations and the changes in the broader
population. So that's where I've come from.
Are that space and interest for you generally?
No. Was a postdoc doc in previous job I was involved with some space research.
Um, uh, we were looking at the, um,
mak uh, wasting after six months on the, uh, international Space Station.
So I was lucky enough, uh,
to be in the right place at the right time at the time. Um, and I,
we collected data before and after, um, uh,
six months on space mission, on a few, a few astronauts.
And that obviously being an engineer, I start thinking, oh, uh,
there are quite a lot of things happening in space, uh, to the human body.
Um, so it's always been the back of my mind. And when I joined Kings,
I found out there is a strong tradition at Kings about aerospace research.
And I, I was, again, the right place at the right time,
uh, to develop this type of research.
My main research is biomechanics and understanding how the brain controls
movement. Uh, but um, yeah,
I always think that our understanding, uh,
of the physiology is limited because we test or we,
um, essentially study the same type of individuals.
So I'm trying to broaden the horizon in that, because I,
it's not just because it's the right thing to do.
People think the wide savior approach, which is not what I'm trying to do here.
I also believe that we have a limited understanding of human physiology because
of the limited population that we are testing.
So tell me about, uh, the moment when Issa say yes. What, what,
what do you do next?
Oh, I was like, oh, finally.
.
It's Cause you try so many times and everybody says, oh, it's very good,
but no for us, or no, it doesn't,
you know, most funders said it, it affects a very small, uh, population,
which I think it's true now. But we've, uh,
you know, commercial space flight, this may change soon actually. Anyway,
what happens after Asia said? Yes, well, um,
it's exciting because we have a strong team. Uh, we have, uh,
people from academia, but as you met, uh, uh, Mike from Arability,
we also, I also try to engage with other charities, uh,
with slightly less success, but we have a strong team. Um, and,
uh, it's a complete blank ambu.
Nobody's done anything like that.
And when you think about this particular project is about also looking what's
already published, there is nothing published in this area.
So we go into Arability because of their experience with, um, aviation,
which is a close, close enough, um, war.
We also go in my, some of my research, or at least interest is on, um,
para-athletes.
So we going also there to try to understand whether some of the adaptation and
some of the changes study in, in para-athletes, uh,
can be then transferred to para astronauts.
So as it's a blank canvas and we are learning on the goal.
And also the other thing is well forum ivory tower researcher,
you start thinking it's not published, but it's not, it's out there. So like,
um, the adaptation, their ability, um, designed for their own, um,
purposes, they're out there, are busy, they're patented and everything. Well,
obviously from an academic perspective you may not be aware of them, but it's,
it's good to not just look at and read papers and,
but it's also going out and getting, uh, our feet a bit, you know,
on the ground on these sort of things. So it's quite exciting.
But if you started in July last year mm-hmm. ,
what are you finding? What, what,
what's coming out of the research you're doing?
What we finding are too many things, in my opinion that we need,
and that's why we got the UK Space Agency grant.
Now we need to engage with the community. We feel, maybe I'm wrong,
but, uh,
people with disability have not been involved so much with this conversation.
So there is quite lot we, we can learn, uh, from experiences.
And it's very
limited if we just think with our own preconceived ideas.
Because the other, when we had a meeting, for example,
we had a few meetings with, um,
the team and we are writing our paper about the arability
experience, um, because sometimes, uh,
there are preconceived or prejudgment and say, oh, this is not possible, or,
um, we, this should not be possible.
And then solutions are already used in the field.
So, and also the other thing that I learned, uh,
in our last meeting was we need that engagement is
important, um,
with different communities because we know very little and
um, and there is no better thing than ask, uh,
rather than assuming, um, an an answer, uh,
whether it is in one way or another. But, you know, just ask.
I'm particularly interested in the advantages of Paris at all.
Are there definitely advantages or you're hoping there are advantages?
What and what are.
They? I have a theory. So there are main barriers to human space flights.
Um, some of them include, so there,
there are barriers that probably are the same for
astronauts and para astronauts, like, you know,
radiation exposure and dust and that sort of thing. However,
uh, there are some, uh, human barriers. So for example,
there is fluid shifts because, so those,
those more related to gravity are fluid shifts. So essentially, uh, fluids that,
uh, with, uh, drought pulls down from the head to the feet,
sort of on, on earth in, uh, microgravity is not pulled down.
So, uh, astronauts tend to experience what's called, um,
puffy pace in chicken legs. So fluids tend to go, uh,
in the head, which can increase intratracheal pressure and that sort of thing.
So there is that, uh, there is also astronauts, um,
of muscle and bone wasting, and that's why they are, uh,
exposed or they are requested to, to, uh,
exercise for up to two hours a day to minimize muscle wasting and bone loss.
And there are other, uh, things, and I,
my hypothesis is some, uh, some disabilities and in particular, uh,
double leg amputation could be an advantage in
microgravity.
The advantage are is because the fluid shift will be minimized.
And also they, if parish dedicated the same amount of time, for example,
to training that other astronauts do, they can, um,
focus on the upper body and therefore, um, the effects.
So they, they train more the upper body for the same moment of time.
So the effects on bus mass, bone wasting could be lower.
And also very in, for example,
if you think about videos from the International Space Station,
astronauts don't use their lower limb, they don't use the legs,
they push themselves from the capsule. Um,
so in one could argue
that lower limbs are not needed.
So that's my underlying hypothesis. I'm a,
so every hypothesis can be wrong. I'm not saying that this is,
but that's where I'm coming from.
Do you have to go to space?
Do you have to take para astronauts to space to do that research?
So we will need microgravity. And because research is full of, uh,
failures, not only successes, we try to do microgravity research with visa.
And that wasn't successful yet. Uh, at least hasn't been successful yet. But,
um,
we space will be the o the exposure to
the duration. It's, it cannot be replicated in other, um,
um, scenarios. So need maybe is a strong word,
but if we really want to prove the point, I guess, um,
that would be the ultimate proof. But yeah, we are trying to do other things.
Um, um, in the meantime.
When you say it hasn't worked,
you mean you haven't managed to do it or when you did it,
it didn't work for some reason?
No, we didn't get funded .
Ah, okay. Okay.
So well people are listening to this then, you know, that's,
that's up to them to fund it, right?
That's, that would be lovely. .
, yeah. So what would that,
what would that research look like in microgravity here?
How'd you do that on earth?
So there is the parabolic flight, uh, which is what we try to do,
and essentially is, um, uh, there are flights, uh,
from ISA or other organizations, um, they,
experiments is performed within an airplane. Um,
and the, uh,
the plane flies through parabolas and in some phases the parabolas,
they, um, it's like when you, um,
take off or land on a normal plane, but exaggerated.
So on some phases of the parabolas, um, people in that, uh,
on the plane can experience, uh,
about up to 20 seconds of reduced gravity or microgravity.
It depends on the parabola. And so essentially, um, there are,
within a flight, there are about,
there are 10 to 15, up to 30,
um,
periods of microgravity in which you can test the effect of
microgravity on, for example, human body, but also other, um,
non-human applications. So that's what we were trying to do. For example,
there is also a company in the US that, uh,
have um, essentially, uh, promote, uh,
parabolic flight experience for people with disabilities.
Would you link up with them for the research?
I've been trying very hard , don't know why it's now happening,
but I've been trying very hard. Yeah.
Okay.
Clearly research plans and applications for money don't always go smoothly.
In fact, we'll explore that a little more in next month's podcast.
But there are hopes to take this research in some other directions.
We're trying to, uh, involve astronauts. Um,
I dunno if you know how this works,
but you need to go through isa, so European agency. And that may,
uh, um,
needs a bit more of a few more steps to get that involved. But yes, we do need,
because that's another good question.
Another question that we are trying to assess is how our other crew mates,
um, feel and will work with para astronauts.
We don't want to create that divide,
but traditionally that divide has been there.
So that is also another important thing because for example,
if we think about iss uh, six member of the crew,
we also need to think about the other five. If we have one para astronaut,
we need to think about the other five. And they are different nationalities.
They are not all astronaut. We also have, uh,
astronauts from other countries and other agencies. So needs to be, um,
it it it's a small environment and things needs to be considered, uh,
for successful mission.
You mean there's, there might be cultural differences.
Cultural differences, or maybe,
so going back to what we said earlier about asking people and including people,
there might be a preconceived idea that somebody with a disability cannot
perform a task, who cannot perform a task as quickly or as well.
And we need to address and to understand whether that idea is there and try
to understand how we can, um,
we can make the mission successful and now we can change if there is
some, um, unconscious and slightly,
maybe I'm unfunded by us. If.
If you got all of this research to land and it all happened,
how long would that.
Take? Well, uh,
at the moment I think he's a co feasibility project because they have not
guaranteed a flight. We are trying to make it happen.
So that's why our team is very keen to give as much support to
the agency and try to make that happen and not just, um,
and think about solutions rather than just problems. Um,
and as I said earlier on, our, my part is being an advantage,
when I discussed this with Visa, they didn't, they,
they didn't be not believe,
but they weren't even considering possible advantages.
So obviously it's,
it's understandable that people think of the problems,
think of the things that cannot be done,
but I think we should start to change thinking in terms of the timing
in this space. Uh, things tend to change quite a lot,
but I think they are thinking about three year time window.
I dunno whether that is reasonable, but, um,
I think that was the discussion, but I'm not sure.
Next steps. Uh,
we have now this UK space agency funding to get this community of
experts and people with disability working together. Uh, we are doing,
uh, we are trying to, uh, get some more research on earth,
uh, about our possible solutions.
So yeah, the thing is not to complain,
but it's not a lot of money and research costs a lot of money , um,
especially in terms of time.
So we are doing maybe smaller steps than I wanted, uh,
in this direction, but it's, it's because of the limited.
Resources. Uh, would you go though, would you, like if,
if you were offered the opportunity to go on like the vomit cup or even into
space, would you do It.
Depends on the duration. So when I was, uh, doing this experiment,
I mentioned earlier, uh, when we were in nasa, um,
testing astronauts after six months on the International Space Station.
And I must when you, when you see the conditions,
um, it, it's a big toll on your body. Uh, so for six months,
to me it's too long. Um, maybe,
you know, in the, uh, shuttle here when were thinking about the two weeks.
So that sort of length, uh, that's okay.
It's also consideration that now we are learning something more about the, uh,
female physiology in space,
which we knew very little Hmm. For the long,
for a very long time. Uh,
so in the last few years we are learning something about that.
Um, but we don't have a lot of information yet. Um,
we obviously the end, so the sample size is still very limited.
Yes. Isn't it? That could change, couldn't it?
The work is done in that area, uh, to change it and uh,
it's great the work has been done. Um,
so now is the time to, to not waste the opportunity.
I think that's the problem. Um, yeah, research in, in spaces,
uh, in space expression tends to be quite difficult,
quite a lot red tape and, um,
and some people get discouraged and as I said,
it's very normal, um, to get discouraged. And I'm not saying I'm not,
I'm just saying now I can do this bit. Let's see what happens next.
, Mike Miller Smith is keen to ensure that the research is shared in both
directions.
Our ability is really excited and,
and hopeful that we can be a gateway to the,
the wider disabled community to engage with the space industry.
So that's why we'll be hopeful to do some work with para athletes
and with other, uh,
people with disabilities of all different types to start asking questions
about would they be interested in going into space?
What challenges do you think they might face?
And as we start to find out more and more data and knowledge about this,
then we can start to replay that back into the disabled community.
So we start the dialogue. I think that's really important. So, uh, yeah,
it's great to be that gateway too between the two society groups really.
Uh, the science is fascinating, some of the stuff in terms of G tolerance,
so particularly during reentry, when the gene levels are at the highest,
again, uh, if the blood is uh, able to stay where it should do with the court,
then uh, g tolerance improves for amputees in particular.
So this is some of the research that's gonna be done in Centrifusion.
Is it other, uh,
experiments just to find out what the physiological benefits are for disabled
people potentially in space.
Uh, that leads me to another question.
You practically volunteered to go into space.
Are you gonna volunteer to go in a centrifuge?
Well, I'd love to. I think the trouble is were my, you know, I'm six foot four,
a big guy hoisting me into an airplane is bad enough,
hoisting me into a centrifuge. That would be another challenge. But hey,
these are some of the things we need to tackle. Yeah.
No, absolutely. You would actually love to do it though.
Genuinely. Oh yeah. Well, when I was, uh, more able than I am now,
I used to love doing aerobatics, so I've thought nothing of, uh,
flying an aerobatic, an aerobatic biplane, you know,
pulling five or six G minus two or 3G used to love that on a sunny
Saturday afternoon. So yeah, I'm a bit of a g jokey,
so I'd love to love to get back to do that in a centri.
Okay, fair enough. What about taking the G'S away there?
Would you take a trip on the vomit comic?
Absolutely. And if fact, you know, Stephen Hawke's done it,
so it's good enough for him as a disabled person and it's good enough for every
other disabled person. So I'd very much love to do that.
Well, life for one,
certainly hope that Mike gets his wish and goes on the folic comment and maybe
even into space one day.
And I also hope that that topical team manages to get the funding that they need
to continue with this fascinating research. As I say,
we'll be back next month when we'll be exploring when research and PhDs
go wrong. But until then,
you can keep up with what's going on in the world of physics with the Physics
World Weekly podcast,
which you can find on the physics world website physics world.com.
And thank you very much for listening.
Physics World.