1 00:00:00,799 --> 00:00:02,799 I have to start by saying that the 2 00:00:02,799 --> 00:00:05,459 chain reaction was in the nineteen forties, 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:10,019 and Fermi sometimes said, and I think deeply 4 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:10,580 meant, 5 00:00:11,279 --> 00:00:12,880 that that was the thing that he was 6 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:13,939 proudest of. 7 00:00:15,044 --> 00:00:15,544 This 8 00:00:16,004 --> 00:00:16,504 strikes 9 00:00:18,405 --> 00:00:20,505 people who have contempt for 10 00:00:21,125 --> 00:00:22,585 practice as a 11 00:00:22,885 --> 00:00:25,545 rather odd thing for a physicist to say, 12 00:00:27,844 --> 00:00:29,704 but it was very much in character. 13 00:00:34,859 --> 00:00:37,100 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World Stories 14 00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:40,460 podcast. I'm Andrei Blestner. And in September 15 00:00:40,460 --> 00:00:41,579 1962, 16 00:00:41,579 --> 00:00:43,979 at the dedication of the American Institute of 17 00:00:43,979 --> 00:00:44,960 Physics Library, 18 00:00:45,325 --> 00:00:46,385 Jane Robert Oppenheimer 19 00:00:47,005 --> 00:00:50,045 spoke of the discoveries of science as great 20 00:00:50,045 --> 00:00:50,545 epics. 21 00:00:51,245 --> 00:00:53,585 Stories that belong to the human tradition 22 00:00:53,965 --> 00:00:57,024 and must be preserved for those who follow. 23 00:00:57,645 --> 00:01:00,929 Today, we're stepping inside those epics. 24 00:01:01,469 --> 00:01:03,809 Thanks to a historic gift from the Oppenheimer 25 00:01:03,869 --> 00:01:06,670 family, the American Institute of Physics has released 26 00:01:06,670 --> 00:01:08,930 a series of digitized oral histories 27 00:01:09,310 --> 00:01:12,030 recorded with the man himself in the nineteen 28 00:01:12,030 --> 00:01:12,344 sixties. 29 00:01:13,224 --> 00:01:16,105 Sixties. These tapes capture Oppenheimer not as a 30 00:01:16,105 --> 00:01:18,685 cinematic icon, but as a living voice 31 00:01:18,984 --> 00:01:19,484 reflecting 32 00:01:19,944 --> 00:01:21,084 on his primitive 33 00:01:21,625 --> 00:01:23,405 mathematical beginnings at Harvard, 34 00:01:23,704 --> 00:01:26,045 the shifting paradigms of quantum mechanics 35 00:01:26,344 --> 00:01:30,219 and the bumpy contingent nature of scientific discovery. 36 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,399 Joining us to discuss the detective work behind 37 00:01:33,399 --> 00:01:35,340 these tapes is Alison Buje, 38 00:01:35,719 --> 00:01:38,540 the archivist of the AIP's Niels Law Laboratory 39 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:40,939 and Archives who helped bring these recordings 40 00:01:41,239 --> 00:01:43,894 out of the vault and into the public 41 00:01:44,435 --> 00:01:47,575 ear. An archivist, it's our role to preserve, 42 00:01:48,915 --> 00:01:49,415 documents 43 00:01:50,034 --> 00:01:51,655 of the past. So, 44 00:01:52,275 --> 00:01:54,275 this can be a multitude of collections that 45 00:01:54,275 --> 00:01:56,515 doesn't have to be paper documents. In fact, 46 00:01:56,515 --> 00:01:58,435 most of what I do is digital work. 47 00:01:58,435 --> 00:01:59,950 That is the forthcoming, 48 00:02:01,530 --> 00:02:02,590 frontier of, 49 00:02:03,049 --> 00:02:04,430 archival work since 50 00:02:04,890 --> 00:02:06,810 mostly what we we produce these days is 51 00:02:06,810 --> 00:02:08,569 in a digital format. That's going to be 52 00:02:08,569 --> 00:02:11,305 what documents our current society and the state 53 00:02:11,305 --> 00:02:13,544 of physics today going forward. But you've not 54 00:02:13,544 --> 00:02:16,185 always been a physics archivist, have you? Actually, 55 00:02:16,185 --> 00:02:18,344 I worked in rare books before this at 56 00:02:18,344 --> 00:02:20,905 the Library of Congress. I, was a reference 57 00:02:20,905 --> 00:02:21,884 assistant there. 58 00:02:22,664 --> 00:02:25,625 The opposite of digital and not always relating 59 00:02:25,625 --> 00:02:26,125 to 60 00:02:26,479 --> 00:02:29,219 the history of science, let alone contemporary science. 61 00:02:29,599 --> 00:02:32,400 Is physics always interested you, or is it 62 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,879 more just the, you know, the the archiving 63 00:02:34,879 --> 00:02:36,900 of things that that's drawn you to this? 64 00:02:37,439 --> 00:02:39,280 I think it's a little bit of both. 65 00:02:40,079 --> 00:02:41,780 What has interested me 66 00:02:42,405 --> 00:02:45,305 is the way that information systems work. 67 00:02:45,764 --> 00:02:47,784 I've always been fascinated historically 68 00:02:48,084 --> 00:02:48,824 how people, 69 00:02:49,924 --> 00:02:51,864 trade information back and forth, 70 00:02:53,044 --> 00:02:55,525 in a variety of information systems, you know, 71 00:02:55,525 --> 00:02:56,104 be that 72 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:58,019 back in the days of, 73 00:02:58,560 --> 00:02:59,219 you know, 74 00:02:59,759 --> 00:03:00,259 predigital 75 00:03:01,199 --> 00:03:04,159 and exchanging letters and, you know, how they 76 00:03:04,159 --> 00:03:06,739 get important information to each other. 77 00:03:08,159 --> 00:03:10,560 And I'll kind of go into my history 78 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:11,519 interests. I was, 79 00:03:12,405 --> 00:03:13,144 I studied 80 00:03:14,405 --> 00:03:17,284 the history of nineteenth century American science, but 81 00:03:17,284 --> 00:03:17,784 particularly 82 00:03:18,084 --> 00:03:21,604 from the lens of building information institutions. So 83 00:03:21,604 --> 00:03:23,144 I, did my master's 84 00:03:23,685 --> 00:03:24,584 work studying 85 00:03:24,884 --> 00:03:26,939 the Smithsonian in its early years, 86 00:03:27,979 --> 00:03:28,479 particularly 87 00:03:28,780 --> 00:03:30,080 the Smithsonian meteorological 88 00:03:30,379 --> 00:03:32,939 project, which was the first major research in 89 00:03:33,020 --> 00:03:33,520 initiative 90 00:03:34,460 --> 00:03:35,280 at the institution. 91 00:03:36,860 --> 00:03:39,099 And what I was really fascinated by was 92 00:03:39,099 --> 00:03:41,599 this network of science that was happening, 93 00:03:41,974 --> 00:03:44,715 and it wasn't a network of professionals necessarily, 94 00:03:46,055 --> 00:03:48,715 but just what drew people into 95 00:03:49,495 --> 00:03:51,194 that network, what made them 96 00:03:51,735 --> 00:03:53,909 feel the need to dedicate their time to 97 00:03:54,150 --> 00:03:54,810 providing scientific 98 00:03:55,510 --> 00:03:57,430 data to the institution. And it was like 99 00:03:57,430 --> 00:03:58,090 a major 100 00:03:58,949 --> 00:03:59,449 commitment 101 00:04:00,389 --> 00:04:01,110 by these, 102 00:04:01,430 --> 00:04:03,610 people across The United States to 103 00:04:03,909 --> 00:04:04,810 write down meteorological 104 00:04:05,189 --> 00:04:07,305 data four times a day and send that 105 00:04:07,305 --> 00:04:08,284 back monthly, 106 00:04:08,824 --> 00:04:10,044 in the eighteen fifties. 107 00:04:10,664 --> 00:04:12,264 And it was just fascinating to see how 108 00:04:12,264 --> 00:04:13,004 that operated. 109 00:04:13,544 --> 00:04:15,705 Mhmm. Yeah. No. It is. And this, this 110 00:04:15,864 --> 00:04:17,865 the reason we're talking today is because of 111 00:04:17,865 --> 00:04:18,185 this, 112 00:04:18,665 --> 00:04:20,264 what can you tell us about it, the 113 00:04:20,264 --> 00:04:21,644 the release of the Oppenheimer 114 00:04:22,024 --> 00:04:24,160 interview, if somebody called? Yeah. So, 115 00:04:25,020 --> 00:04:26,240 I started at 116 00:04:26,699 --> 00:04:28,779 AIP about a year and a half ago, 117 00:04:28,779 --> 00:04:29,279 and, 118 00:04:31,819 --> 00:04:33,899 you know, you're still kind of getting a 119 00:04:33,899 --> 00:04:35,819 feel for the landscape of the archive that 120 00:04:35,819 --> 00:04:37,279 you're working with and 121 00:04:37,615 --> 00:04:39,935 what the legacy of the collections are and, 122 00:04:39,935 --> 00:04:42,194 you know, how they collect and, 123 00:04:42,974 --> 00:04:45,294 how they work with their donors. And AIP 124 00:04:45,294 --> 00:04:47,634 has a very, very strong dedication 125 00:04:47,935 --> 00:04:50,034 to good relationships with its donors. 126 00:04:50,574 --> 00:04:54,019 And, I was doing some reference work and, 127 00:04:54,420 --> 00:04:56,259 got a question from a researcher that they 128 00:04:56,259 --> 00:04:58,920 were interested in using one of these Oppenheimer 129 00:04:59,060 --> 00:05:01,639 transcripts. And most of our oral history transcripts 130 00:05:01,860 --> 00:05:04,899 are in our repository, they're open access, and 131 00:05:04,899 --> 00:05:06,634 this one wasn't. And so I, you you 132 00:05:06,634 --> 00:05:07,914 know, went to my colleagues and I was 133 00:05:07,914 --> 00:05:09,675 like, oh, you know, why is this one 134 00:05:09,675 --> 00:05:10,814 not open access? 135 00:05:11,274 --> 00:05:13,694 And they explained that the history was that 136 00:05:15,035 --> 00:05:17,274 there was an informal agreement that the family 137 00:05:17,274 --> 00:05:19,134 didn't want the Oppenheimer family 138 00:05:19,675 --> 00:05:22,520 didn't want these to be open access. They 139 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:23,500 wanted to regulate, 140 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,580 researcher use of these materials a little more. 141 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,439 And so we'd always respected that. And, 142 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:31,420 traditionally, 143 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,199 you had to write a letter as a 144 00:05:34,199 --> 00:05:37,414 researcher to Peter Oppenheimer, Oppenheimer's son, 145 00:05:37,954 --> 00:05:40,274 and get that permission first to access the 146 00:05:40,274 --> 00:05:42,675 transcript. And then when you were ready to 147 00:05:42,675 --> 00:05:44,914 publish using materials from that transcript, you had 148 00:05:44,914 --> 00:05:47,074 to write again and, like, specifically say which 149 00:05:47,074 --> 00:05:49,379 quotes you were interested in. So it was 150 00:05:49,379 --> 00:05:51,620 kind of a double barrier to access. I 151 00:05:51,620 --> 00:05:53,060 mean, it it made sense, and we were 152 00:05:53,060 --> 00:05:53,560 very 153 00:05:54,019 --> 00:05:54,920 willing to, 154 00:05:55,779 --> 00:05:57,560 you know, have researchers go, 155 00:05:58,500 --> 00:06:00,279 and direct them through this process. 156 00:06:00,980 --> 00:06:01,480 But, 157 00:06:03,300 --> 00:06:04,334 we reached out 158 00:06:04,814 --> 00:06:06,814 to the Oppenheimer estate to kind of, you 159 00:06:06,814 --> 00:06:08,975 know, ask for this on behalf of this 160 00:06:08,975 --> 00:06:11,375 researcher. And we got an email back and 161 00:06:11,375 --> 00:06:13,794 it was from, one of the Oppenheimer grandchildren 162 00:06:13,935 --> 00:06:14,914 rather than Peter. 163 00:06:15,454 --> 00:06:17,294 And she was kind of questioning. I don't 164 00:06:17,294 --> 00:06:19,375 think she knew this whole process and she 165 00:06:19,375 --> 00:06:21,699 was like, oh, do you know why you're 166 00:06:21,699 --> 00:06:22,520 asking us? 167 00:06:22,980 --> 00:06:23,800 And that I 168 00:06:24,339 --> 00:06:26,759 kind of explained my knowledge of the situation. 169 00:06:27,699 --> 00:06:28,199 And, 170 00:06:29,939 --> 00:06:31,699 we both kind of have being new to 171 00:06:31,699 --> 00:06:34,100 this environment and new to this archival material, 172 00:06:34,100 --> 00:06:36,705 we were like, oh, well, you know, maybe 173 00:06:36,705 --> 00:06:38,404 maybe it's time to kind of rethink 174 00:06:38,865 --> 00:06:39,685 this relationship. 175 00:06:39,985 --> 00:06:40,485 And, 176 00:06:41,985 --> 00:06:42,884 we were both, 177 00:06:43,264 --> 00:06:45,925 like, the Oppenheimer state were 178 00:06:46,545 --> 00:06:47,524 very enthusiastic 179 00:06:47,824 --> 00:06:51,169 about opening access and, like, really encouraging history 180 00:06:51,169 --> 00:06:52,550 of science work. And, 181 00:06:53,169 --> 00:06:54,790 that was incredibly encouraging, 182 00:06:55,250 --> 00:06:56,949 that support we got from them. 183 00:06:59,329 --> 00:07:01,490 And so over several months, we kind of 184 00:07:01,490 --> 00:07:04,149 talked about various options of, like, formal, 185 00:07:04,714 --> 00:07:06,574 you know, copyright 186 00:07:06,875 --> 00:07:07,375 agreements, 187 00:07:08,394 --> 00:07:10,794 and, like, what permissions they were comfortable with 188 00:07:10,794 --> 00:07:11,535 going forward. 189 00:07:12,235 --> 00:07:12,714 And, 190 00:07:13,354 --> 00:07:16,794 essentially, they just wanted to ensure that there 191 00:07:16,794 --> 00:07:19,459 was open, non commercial access to this work 192 00:07:19,459 --> 00:07:21,579 so that researchers and it wasn't just that 193 00:07:21,579 --> 00:07:23,040 one transcript. It was, 194 00:07:23,899 --> 00:07:24,399 three, 195 00:07:25,180 --> 00:07:27,439 interviews that we had in our collections transcripts, 196 00:07:27,500 --> 00:07:28,000 and, 197 00:07:28,939 --> 00:07:31,259 two of them have accompanying audio, which is 198 00:07:31,259 --> 00:07:32,800 just fantastic. And, 199 00:07:33,904 --> 00:07:35,365 they agreed, yeah, to allow 200 00:07:36,064 --> 00:07:38,705 noncommercial open access. We could put them in 201 00:07:38,705 --> 00:07:40,404 the repository for anyone 202 00:07:41,105 --> 00:07:43,045 to read or listen to and, 203 00:07:44,064 --> 00:07:45,685 really just see a new 204 00:07:46,339 --> 00:07:46,839 perspective 205 00:07:47,220 --> 00:07:48,599 of Robert Oppenheimer 206 00:07:48,979 --> 00:07:51,800 in his own words. It's extremely meaningful 207 00:07:52,500 --> 00:07:53,720 to have that, 208 00:07:54,180 --> 00:07:56,899 stream of consciousness from him and even hear 209 00:07:56,899 --> 00:07:57,639 his voice. 210 00:07:58,894 --> 00:08:01,074 I found Bridgeman a wonderful teacher 211 00:08:02,415 --> 00:08:02,915 because 212 00:08:05,454 --> 00:08:05,954 he 213 00:08:06,254 --> 00:08:08,355 never really was quite reconciled 214 00:08:08,735 --> 00:08:10,919 to things being the way they were, and 215 00:08:10,919 --> 00:08:13,740 he always thought them out. And his exercises 216 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:14,620 were 217 00:08:15,319 --> 00:08:17,479 a very good way to learn where the 218 00:08:17,479 --> 00:08:18,699 bones were in 219 00:08:19,399 --> 00:08:21,259 these these two beautiful parts of physics. 220 00:08:25,014 --> 00:08:27,034 I think as far as science goes, 221 00:08:27,735 --> 00:08:28,714 they were the 222 00:08:29,414 --> 00:08:31,354 the great point of my time at Harvard. 223 00:08:31,974 --> 00:08:32,955 But I can't 224 00:08:33,735 --> 00:08:35,034 I can't emphasize 225 00:08:35,669 --> 00:08:36,570 strongly enough 226 00:08:37,190 --> 00:08:38,649 how much I read 227 00:08:41,190 --> 00:08:44,009 and more really just in exploration. 228 00:08:46,710 --> 00:08:48,870 You see, it's a very odd picture. I've 229 00:08:48,870 --> 00:08:50,355 never had an elementary course 230 00:08:50,914 --> 00:08:53,254 in physics except for a very elementary 231 00:08:53,714 --> 00:08:54,534 school course. 232 00:08:55,074 --> 00:08:57,954 And to this day, I get panicky when 233 00:08:57,954 --> 00:09:00,615 I think about a smoke ring or elastic 234 00:09:00,674 --> 00:09:01,174 vibration. 235 00:09:02,754 --> 00:09:04,375 There's nothing there. It's just 236 00:09:04,754 --> 00:09:07,490 a little skim over over over a hole. 237 00:09:08,029 --> 00:09:10,690 And, in the same way, my my mathematical 238 00:09:10,909 --> 00:09:11,409 formation 239 00:09:12,029 --> 00:09:14,370 was even for those days very primitive. 240 00:09:14,750 --> 00:09:16,929 And this is more than evident 241 00:09:17,549 --> 00:09:19,149 in the way I went about some of 242 00:09:19,149 --> 00:09:20,529 the things I did later. 243 00:09:23,524 --> 00:09:25,464 And very eclectic. I mean, I 244 00:09:26,245 --> 00:09:26,745 I 245 00:09:27,524 --> 00:09:28,985 took a course with Littlewood 246 00:09:29,524 --> 00:09:31,464 on number theory. Well, that was nice, 247 00:09:32,004 --> 00:09:32,504 but 248 00:09:33,125 --> 00:09:35,570 that wasn't really how to go about learning 249 00:09:35,570 --> 00:09:36,070 mathematics 250 00:09:37,570 --> 00:09:39,809 for the professional pursuit of civility. This was 251 00:09:39,809 --> 00:09:41,350 when you were in Cambridge. That's right. 252 00:09:42,850 --> 00:09:45,330 Would you always, as an archivist, dive into 253 00:09:45,330 --> 00:09:47,590 what you're archiving? Or do you always read 254 00:09:47,649 --> 00:09:50,745 everything and listen to everything? Not always. There, 255 00:09:50,745 --> 00:09:53,304 of course, is just too much material out 256 00:09:53,304 --> 00:09:53,804 there 257 00:09:54,745 --> 00:09:55,245 to 258 00:09:56,024 --> 00:09:58,924 get to dive into everything. But, of course, 259 00:09:59,544 --> 00:10:00,365 my background 260 00:10:01,384 --> 00:10:03,565 in studying history as well as an archivist, 261 00:10:03,879 --> 00:10:06,199 Sometimes you just latch on to something and 262 00:10:06,199 --> 00:10:08,679 you you can't help but dig deeper into 263 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,659 it. This project definitely took up more 264 00:10:12,199 --> 00:10:14,299 of my time than maybe a typical, 265 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:17,100 kind of reference, 266 00:10:17,959 --> 00:10:19,259 request or other 267 00:10:19,695 --> 00:10:22,674 project with, some of our other collections. But, 268 00:10:23,535 --> 00:10:25,295 I think that that when you have the 269 00:10:25,295 --> 00:10:25,795 opportunity 270 00:10:26,654 --> 00:10:27,154 to, 271 00:10:28,735 --> 00:10:30,495 you know, dig deep into material that you 272 00:10:30,495 --> 00:10:32,495 know is going to be so meaningful to 273 00:10:32,495 --> 00:10:34,674 so many people, like, you really have to, 274 00:10:35,639 --> 00:10:37,100 take that extra time. 275 00:10:37,639 --> 00:10:39,879 I I mean, I you'd be totally excused 276 00:10:39,879 --> 00:10:43,159 for not being someone who's kind of watched 277 00:10:43,159 --> 00:10:45,320 the Oppenheimer film, read the book, and all 278 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,240 that kind of thing. Right? As many people 279 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,299 who were listening will have done. Have you 280 00:10:50,544 --> 00:10:52,785 watched that film, read that book, and what 281 00:10:52,785 --> 00:10:53,285 does, 282 00:10:53,904 --> 00:10:56,404 even if you haven't, what does your own 283 00:10:56,544 --> 00:10:59,024 appreciation of listening to him in his own 284 00:10:59,024 --> 00:11:01,065 words, reading him in his own words, what 285 00:11:01,184 --> 00:11:03,665 what's that brought to your understanding of of 286 00:11:03,745 --> 00:11:04,485 as a character? 287 00:11:05,700 --> 00:11:07,700 I have read, the book, and I have 288 00:11:07,700 --> 00:11:09,779 seen the movie. I saw the movie during 289 00:11:09,779 --> 00:11:11,320 the initial Barb and Heimer. 290 00:11:15,620 --> 00:11:17,460 And I I think, I then I watched 291 00:11:17,460 --> 00:11:19,894 it more recently after going through the oral 292 00:11:19,894 --> 00:11:22,074 histories, and it was a very different experience. 293 00:11:23,495 --> 00:11:24,394 I do think 294 00:11:25,574 --> 00:11:27,514 I you just connect to him 295 00:11:28,615 --> 00:11:29,834 more as a person, 296 00:11:30,695 --> 00:11:32,534 and it puts so much of I've read, 297 00:11:32,855 --> 00:11:34,554 Kai Bird and Martin Sherwin's 298 00:11:35,250 --> 00:11:36,629 book as well, and 299 00:11:37,490 --> 00:11:39,490 it just provides, like, an extra layer of 300 00:11:39,490 --> 00:11:41,570 depth underneath all of it, but maybe also 301 00:11:41,570 --> 00:11:42,309 an appreciation 302 00:11:42,690 --> 00:11:43,190 for 303 00:11:45,570 --> 00:11:46,070 how 304 00:11:46,850 --> 00:11:47,910 primary source 305 00:11:48,464 --> 00:11:50,804 can be transformed first into biography 306 00:11:51,424 --> 00:11:53,345 and then into a film. Like, you can 307 00:11:53,345 --> 00:11:56,065 see the thread going through, and you can 308 00:11:56,065 --> 00:11:57,605 feel what rings true. 309 00:11:58,625 --> 00:12:01,125 Like, there are some direct quotes, and 310 00:12:02,429 --> 00:12:05,389 it's really neat to see those quotes in 311 00:12:05,389 --> 00:12:06,769 each, you know, format. 312 00:12:07,309 --> 00:12:09,090 But then you also can appreciate 313 00:12:10,190 --> 00:12:10,690 how 314 00:12:12,909 --> 00:12:15,870 delicate it is to communicate both person and 315 00:12:15,870 --> 00:12:16,370 science 316 00:12:18,754 --> 00:12:20,754 and how well done that can be, like, 317 00:12:21,235 --> 00:12:21,735 explaining, 318 00:12:22,674 --> 00:12:23,735 you know, Oppenheimer's, 319 00:12:24,115 --> 00:12:26,615 you know, state of mind during his graduate 320 00:12:26,674 --> 00:12:27,975 studies, but then also 321 00:12:28,514 --> 00:12:31,254 the difficulties and triumphs of, like, coming to, 322 00:12:31,519 --> 00:12:33,519 you know, his research. Like, it's a struggle, 323 00:12:33,519 --> 00:12:35,279 but then they explain the science as well 324 00:12:35,279 --> 00:12:37,039 that he's, like, struggling through in a way 325 00:12:37,039 --> 00:12:40,179 that I think it's it's, it's quite impressive 326 00:12:40,399 --> 00:12:40,899 to, 327 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:43,059 explain to a wider audience. 328 00:12:46,335 --> 00:12:48,815 I have a twelve month head start. Eighteen. 329 00:12:48,815 --> 00:12:50,514 How could you possibly know that? 330 00:12:51,855 --> 00:12:53,154 We've got one hope. 331 00:12:54,335 --> 00:12:58,379 All America's industrial minded scientific innovation connected here, 332 00:12:59,660 --> 00:13:00,559 secret laboratory. 333 00:13:02,460 --> 00:13:05,019 Keep everyone there until it's done. Does Cillian 334 00:13:05,019 --> 00:13:08,460 Murphy's representation of him ring true for what 335 00:13:08,460 --> 00:13:10,940 you're reading and seeing in these and and 336 00:13:10,940 --> 00:13:13,065 hearing in these? I do think that Cillian 337 00:13:13,065 --> 00:13:17,004 Murphy did an impressive job of the way 338 00:13:17,945 --> 00:13:20,345 I mean, no one can exactly replicate the 339 00:13:20,345 --> 00:13:22,205 way that Oppenheimer Robert Oppenheimer, 340 00:13:22,664 --> 00:13:24,845 his voice and his, like, very careful 341 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:25,700 and, 342 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:27,860 you know, steady mannerism 343 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,299 comes across in the oral history interviews. 344 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,240 But I think that Kellyanne Murphy does kind 345 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,320 of have, like, this gravity and this, you 346 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:36,820 know, 347 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:38,340 measuredness 348 00:13:38,795 --> 00:13:40,955 to his performance that I think, you know, 349 00:13:40,955 --> 00:13:42,894 it's it's an it's a good adaptation 350 00:13:43,355 --> 00:13:45,215 of, you know, the reality. 351 00:13:45,754 --> 00:13:48,394 Because you've made this archive accessible to people, 352 00:13:48,394 --> 00:13:50,475 everybody can now do that. Right? They can 353 00:13:50,475 --> 00:13:53,309 go and listen to Oppenheimer in his own 354 00:13:53,309 --> 00:13:55,309 words. They can read Oppenheimer in his own 355 00:13:55,309 --> 00:13:57,070 words. They can read the book. They can 356 00:13:57,070 --> 00:13:58,909 watch the film. They can they can all 357 00:13:58,909 --> 00:14:00,049 go and do that. 358 00:14:00,589 --> 00:14:03,309 What they can't do is be behind the 359 00:14:03,309 --> 00:14:05,985 scenes of of everything that you've done to 360 00:14:06,065 --> 00:14:08,784 to make this happen. And and I in 361 00:14:08,784 --> 00:14:10,225 the archive, do you have to 362 00:14:11,345 --> 00:14:14,084 are these tapes in a specially controlled room? 363 00:14:14,384 --> 00:14:15,684 Are they the physical 364 00:14:16,144 --> 00:14:16,644 tapes, 365 00:14:17,184 --> 00:14:19,904 are they as important, really, as this digital 366 00:14:19,904 --> 00:14:20,404 artifact? 367 00:14:21,750 --> 00:14:24,090 We consider them as important. We, 368 00:14:25,190 --> 00:14:26,970 store the tapes in, 369 00:14:27,830 --> 00:14:29,450 climate controlled environments. 370 00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:30,970 Unfortunately, 371 00:14:31,669 --> 00:14:34,330 tapes are a, an endangered 372 00:14:35,274 --> 00:14:38,335 format, and there is degradation to tapes. 373 00:14:39,914 --> 00:14:43,134 That is an especially urgent man matter in 374 00:14:43,274 --> 00:14:45,695 archiving right now, which is why we reformat 375 00:14:46,154 --> 00:14:47,054 when we can. 376 00:14:47,470 --> 00:14:50,110 So we have reformatted to the digital so 377 00:14:50,110 --> 00:14:51,649 that we never have to 378 00:14:52,110 --> 00:14:53,330 reach unnecessarily 379 00:14:53,870 --> 00:14:55,409 for the tape format. 380 00:14:55,870 --> 00:14:57,570 We actually already had digitized 381 00:14:58,110 --> 00:14:58,610 the 382 00:14:59,629 --> 00:15:01,730 third interview which was actually originally 383 00:15:02,174 --> 00:15:03,794 a film interview conducted 384 00:15:04,174 --> 00:15:07,394 for Harvard Project Physics, a film, on Enrico 385 00:15:07,455 --> 00:15:07,955 Fermi. 386 00:15:08,654 --> 00:15:12,115 His impact during his lifetime was very great 387 00:15:13,695 --> 00:15:15,315 in the professional community 388 00:15:16,559 --> 00:15:17,539 among physicists. 389 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:21,940 He was deeply loved, 390 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:24,740 imitated 391 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,559 as far as it lay in people's power 392 00:15:28,559 --> 00:15:30,419 to do so by very many. 393 00:15:32,904 --> 00:15:33,404 He 394 00:15:34,745 --> 00:15:36,845 changed the style in which a whole 395 00:15:37,625 --> 00:15:40,184 set of problems were thought about and the 396 00:15:40,184 --> 00:15:41,565 language that was used. 397 00:15:43,544 --> 00:15:44,044 He 398 00:15:45,169 --> 00:15:47,649 had an experimental style as well as a 399 00:15:47,649 --> 00:15:48,870 theoretical one 400 00:15:49,409 --> 00:15:51,269 among physicists. This was 401 00:15:53,970 --> 00:15:56,389 something that was felt very soon, and 402 00:15:57,434 --> 00:15:59,615 the world is full of physicists. 403 00:16:00,875 --> 00:16:02,815 Unfortunately, not full enough. 404 00:16:03,835 --> 00:16:05,915 So we had that one already digitized. We 405 00:16:05,915 --> 00:16:06,975 are, you know, preserving 406 00:16:07,514 --> 00:16:09,934 the original audio tape and the original film. 407 00:16:11,829 --> 00:16:12,490 And then 408 00:16:13,829 --> 00:16:16,309 the second interview is a very interesting story. 409 00:16:16,309 --> 00:16:18,329 It was collected for the 410 00:16:18,789 --> 00:16:20,809 project for the history of quantum physics, 411 00:16:21,589 --> 00:16:23,850 sources for the history of quantum physics project. 412 00:16:25,845 --> 00:16:26,745 And that audio, 413 00:16:27,125 --> 00:16:27,625 we 414 00:16:28,964 --> 00:16:30,664 both store it AIP, 415 00:16:31,044 --> 00:16:33,144 but one of the partners of that project 416 00:16:33,284 --> 00:16:35,144 was the American Philosophical 417 00:16:35,445 --> 00:16:36,825 Society in Philadelphia, 418 00:16:38,490 --> 00:16:39,629 and they had 419 00:16:41,450 --> 00:16:43,870 reformatted tapes several years ago 420 00:16:45,529 --> 00:16:46,029 that 421 00:16:47,290 --> 00:16:47,790 were, 422 00:16:48,250 --> 00:16:48,910 you know, 423 00:16:49,290 --> 00:16:50,144 better for digitization than 424 00:16:51,264 --> 00:16:53,184 anything that we have on our site. And 425 00:16:53,184 --> 00:16:54,404 so often we will, 426 00:16:55,024 --> 00:16:55,845 send researchers 427 00:16:56,225 --> 00:16:57,524 to Philadelphia 428 00:16:58,225 --> 00:16:59,585 if they are looking for, 429 00:16:59,985 --> 00:17:02,644 archive for the history of quantum physics audio. 430 00:17:03,230 --> 00:17:05,069 And so we reached out to them when 431 00:17:05,069 --> 00:17:07,890 we were revising this agreement with the Oppenheimer 432 00:17:08,109 --> 00:17:08,609 family, 433 00:17:08,990 --> 00:17:10,929 and they were, very enthusiastic 434 00:17:11,309 --> 00:17:11,710 and, 435 00:17:12,109 --> 00:17:13,329 generously provided 436 00:17:13,789 --> 00:17:16,765 a digitized copy of their audio tapes to 437 00:17:16,765 --> 00:17:17,265 us. 438 00:17:18,285 --> 00:17:20,525 And this this, archive for the history of 439 00:17:20,525 --> 00:17:22,944 quantum physics project has always been 440 00:17:23,325 --> 00:17:25,184 about inter institutional 441 00:17:25,884 --> 00:17:26,384 cooperation. 442 00:17:29,164 --> 00:17:31,424 And during this time, we kind of reopened 443 00:17:32,279 --> 00:17:34,039 looking at the archive for the history of 444 00:17:34,039 --> 00:17:35,420 quantum physics historically. 445 00:17:35,799 --> 00:17:36,299 And 446 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,660 there's always also been a case of, 447 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:41,980 kind of ambiguous 448 00:17:42,279 --> 00:17:42,779 permissions 449 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,259 around how institutions can govern 450 00:17:45,795 --> 00:17:46,295 the 451 00:17:46,914 --> 00:17:47,414 HQP 452 00:17:47,715 --> 00:17:50,434 materials and their collections, and this has reopened 453 00:17:50,434 --> 00:17:52,195 a conversation about how we do that. And 454 00:17:52,195 --> 00:17:55,075 we're looking to open up that relationship even 455 00:17:55,075 --> 00:17:57,815 more and possibly make more of that available 456 00:17:57,875 --> 00:18:00,859 online in the future. So Oh, that's interesting. 457 00:18:01,299 --> 00:18:04,259 One conversation about open access just opens doors 458 00:18:04,259 --> 00:18:06,659 to others. It's kind of like everyone ends 459 00:18:06,659 --> 00:18:07,960 up being very enthusiastic 460 00:18:08,259 --> 00:18:09,000 about sharing 461 00:18:09,619 --> 00:18:10,519 what they can. 462 00:18:10,899 --> 00:18:13,539 Yeah. No. That's lovely. I I when you're 463 00:18:13,539 --> 00:18:15,319 doing something like this with the audio 464 00:18:15,835 --> 00:18:17,595 that's been recorded a long time ago and, 465 00:18:17,595 --> 00:18:19,595 you know, it's not it's not the audio 466 00:18:19,595 --> 00:18:22,414 that we we're used to hearing today in 467 00:18:22,555 --> 00:18:24,255 podcasts and films, etcetera, 468 00:18:24,555 --> 00:18:26,795 do do you do anything to it in 469 00:18:26,795 --> 00:18:29,595 terms of improving it for a today's audience, 470 00:18:29,595 --> 00:18:31,134 or do you leave it as it is? 471 00:18:31,390 --> 00:18:33,390 There's there's a decision to make there. 472 00:18:33,869 --> 00:18:36,049 You don't want to intervene too much. 473 00:18:36,429 --> 00:18:38,609 You wanna remain a trusted source. 474 00:18:39,390 --> 00:18:39,890 And, 475 00:18:40,429 --> 00:18:42,669 by not editing things, you provide people with, 476 00:18:42,669 --> 00:18:43,650 like, the raw 477 00:18:44,429 --> 00:18:44,929 copy 478 00:18:45,549 --> 00:18:46,035 of, 479 00:18:46,515 --> 00:18:48,595 you know, as true to the original as 480 00:18:48,595 --> 00:18:49,234 you can. 481 00:18:49,555 --> 00:18:50,994 And then from there, you know, if they 482 00:18:50,994 --> 00:18:51,734 have tools 483 00:18:52,115 --> 00:18:54,755 to improve audio, they can download it and, 484 00:18:54,755 --> 00:18:55,815 you know, make improvements. 485 00:18:58,195 --> 00:18:59,015 And, unfortunately, 486 00:19:00,630 --> 00:19:01,849 some of the tapes 487 00:19:02,150 --> 00:19:02,650 have 488 00:19:03,190 --> 00:19:05,210 degraded a bit, and you will hear that 489 00:19:05,589 --> 00:19:06,089 in 490 00:19:06,869 --> 00:19:08,789 the 1963 491 00:19:08,789 --> 00:19:11,049 tapes. At the beginning of them, there's 492 00:19:12,390 --> 00:19:14,789 there's a little bit of distortion, and we 493 00:19:14,789 --> 00:19:16,170 believe that that's from 494 00:19:17,644 --> 00:19:19,505 the beginning of the tapes, which is exposed 495 00:19:19,565 --> 00:19:20,944 more to open air 496 00:19:21,244 --> 00:19:22,304 degrading faster. 497 00:19:23,244 --> 00:19:24,605 And for the stuff on, 498 00:19:25,484 --> 00:19:26,224 on molecular 499 00:19:26,525 --> 00:19:27,025 structure. 500 00:19:27,565 --> 00:19:29,669 Well, that paper is born and up Yeah. 501 00:19:29,990 --> 00:19:32,890 Now and their physique and it's probably 27. 502 00:19:33,589 --> 00:19:34,950 But do you know I think I was 503 00:19:35,750 --> 00:19:36,470 do you have a 504 00:19:37,829 --> 00:19:40,169 I thought that it was missing this quarter 505 00:19:40,549 --> 00:19:41,144 and with 506 00:19:45,705 --> 00:19:47,484 And so we are actually supporting 507 00:19:47,945 --> 00:19:51,144 the American Philosophical Society in a, a grant 508 00:19:51,144 --> 00:19:53,805 to fully digitize all of the AHQP 509 00:19:54,505 --> 00:19:55,005 audio 510 00:19:55,740 --> 00:19:57,339 so that we will then have that digital 511 00:19:57,339 --> 00:20:00,140 copy in case the tape further degrades in 512 00:20:00,140 --> 00:20:02,140 the future. Do you feel like people would 513 00:20:02,140 --> 00:20:04,700 feel less that they trust it less if 514 00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:05,200 you 515 00:20:06,059 --> 00:20:07,980 improved it at source, if you see what 516 00:20:07,980 --> 00:20:08,559 I mean? 517 00:20:08,859 --> 00:20:10,480 I think if we if we improved 518 00:20:11,855 --> 00:20:12,515 the audio 519 00:20:13,535 --> 00:20:15,475 using, you know, various tools, 520 00:20:17,455 --> 00:20:18,654 we would have to, you know, we would 521 00:20:18,654 --> 00:20:19,715 include a disclaimer 522 00:20:20,255 --> 00:20:22,414 that it had been altered and, you know, 523 00:20:22,414 --> 00:20:24,414 where it had been altered, how and why 524 00:20:24,414 --> 00:20:26,275 to maintain that trust. 525 00:20:26,950 --> 00:20:29,110 Okay. Fair enough. Because in in this day 526 00:20:29,110 --> 00:20:30,250 of, you know, AI, 527 00:20:31,110 --> 00:20:31,850 you know, 528 00:20:32,470 --> 00:20:33,450 generated videos, 529 00:20:33,910 --> 00:20:36,070 you really don't wanna be presenting something that's 530 00:20:36,070 --> 00:20:38,470 been altered too deeply. No. Fair enough. Fair 531 00:20:38,470 --> 00:20:40,070 enough. How do you feel about AI as 532 00:20:40,070 --> 00:20:40,230 a, 533 00:20:40,924 --> 00:20:42,845 as an archivist and someone who's interested in 534 00:20:42,845 --> 00:20:44,924 this sort of thing? As an archivist, I 535 00:20:44,924 --> 00:20:46,704 think there's a lot of opportunity 536 00:20:48,125 --> 00:20:48,944 for AI 537 00:20:50,845 --> 00:20:53,265 to act as a helpmate in doing 538 00:20:53,964 --> 00:20:55,319 routine archival work. 539 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,019 But I am 540 00:20:58,759 --> 00:21:01,480 I think AI can just as much help 541 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,200 as it can create a an environment of 542 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:05,419 distrust in, 543 00:21:06,519 --> 00:21:07,019 presenting 544 00:21:08,134 --> 00:21:09,734 archival materials that, 545 00:21:10,294 --> 00:21:12,315 you know, will live on the Internet alongside 546 00:21:13,174 --> 00:21:14,714 less trustworthy sources. 547 00:21:15,974 --> 00:21:17,355 This is for noncommercial 548 00:21:17,734 --> 00:21:19,255 use. How do you police that, or is 549 00:21:19,255 --> 00:21:21,034 that not your job to police that? 550 00:21:21,494 --> 00:21:23,130 At the end of the day, it is 551 00:21:23,450 --> 00:21:25,470 on our users to ultimately, 552 00:21:26,730 --> 00:21:27,230 you 553 00:21:27,529 --> 00:21:30,589 know, understand if they are using these materials, 554 00:21:31,450 --> 00:21:32,190 for noncommercial 555 00:21:32,569 --> 00:21:33,390 fair use. 556 00:21:33,690 --> 00:21:34,670 What we do, 557 00:21:36,554 --> 00:21:38,714 request in our policy is that if anyone 558 00:21:38,714 --> 00:21:39,694 is going to, 559 00:21:42,234 --> 00:21:44,255 use this material in their 560 00:21:44,794 --> 00:21:47,595 scholarly work and publications that they submit a 561 00:21:47,595 --> 00:21:48,095 request 562 00:21:48,690 --> 00:21:51,569 through our request form, and, we ask that 563 00:21:51,569 --> 00:21:53,250 they include all of the quotes that they 564 00:21:53,250 --> 00:21:54,069 will be using. 565 00:21:54,690 --> 00:21:55,190 And 566 00:21:56,609 --> 00:21:57,589 then that 567 00:21:57,890 --> 00:22:00,690 approval of those requests, we that generally happens 568 00:22:00,690 --> 00:22:03,565 very quickly, within a day or two. And 569 00:22:03,565 --> 00:22:05,485 then, you know, they have our endorsement to 570 00:22:05,485 --> 00:22:06,785 go forward and publish. 571 00:22:09,565 --> 00:22:10,065 And, 572 00:22:11,485 --> 00:22:13,325 otherwise, you know, we don't wanna be we 573 00:22:13,325 --> 00:22:15,664 don't wanna create more barriers to 574 00:22:16,130 --> 00:22:17,430 access to this material. 575 00:22:17,970 --> 00:22:20,150 So the whole point of this was to 576 00:22:20,289 --> 00:22:22,450 bring down those barriers and let people do 577 00:22:22,450 --> 00:22:23,670 their research as 578 00:22:24,049 --> 00:22:25,430 easy a manner as possible. 579 00:22:26,930 --> 00:22:28,934 And there there is a difficulty and a 580 00:22:29,095 --> 00:22:31,195 sacrifice, I think, in putting something online 581 00:22:32,695 --> 00:22:33,835 to achieve that. 582 00:22:36,055 --> 00:22:37,434 At the same time, you're opening 583 00:22:37,975 --> 00:22:40,295 up these materials to potentially being used in 584 00:22:40,295 --> 00:22:42,309 a way that is not governed by the 585 00:22:42,309 --> 00:22:42,809 policy. 586 00:22:43,830 --> 00:22:45,670 I guess you'd know though, wouldn't you? If 587 00:22:45,670 --> 00:22:47,349 if somebody made a lot of money out 588 00:22:47,349 --> 00:22:49,029 of it, you'd become aware of the fact, 589 00:22:49,029 --> 00:22:49,849 you know, if there's, 590 00:22:51,109 --> 00:22:51,769 some incredibly 591 00:22:52,309 --> 00:22:54,970 brilliant dance tracks with, Oppenheimer 592 00:22:56,974 --> 00:22:58,815 on it. I don't know how closely I 593 00:22:58,815 --> 00:23:00,595 would, be following that 594 00:23:01,375 --> 00:23:03,315 culture to be aware of it. 595 00:23:03,774 --> 00:23:05,615 Fair enough. I guess that would be I 596 00:23:05,615 --> 00:23:07,134 don't know. That would just be really cool. 597 00:23:07,134 --> 00:23:08,909 I don't. We would have to consider Yeah. 598 00:23:08,909 --> 00:23:10,349 Yeah. If someone wants to get in touch 599 00:23:10,349 --> 00:23:11,789 and ask, then they know where you are. 600 00:23:11,789 --> 00:23:12,669 Right? So they can, 601 00:23:13,150 --> 00:23:14,669 get that to work. But it it there's 602 00:23:14,669 --> 00:23:16,509 there's that side of it, but I'm assuming 603 00:23:16,509 --> 00:23:19,169 that there's there'll be interest from educators 604 00:23:19,549 --> 00:23:20,049 and, 605 00:23:20,509 --> 00:23:23,974 historians and other oral historians. And and how 606 00:23:23,974 --> 00:23:25,994 do you hope that people will use it? 607 00:23:26,134 --> 00:23:28,075 I hope that people will use it to, 608 00:23:28,295 --> 00:23:31,015 again, get that deep connection with the the 609 00:23:31,015 --> 00:23:33,194 personal elements of history. I think 610 00:23:33,494 --> 00:23:35,674 Kibert and Martin Sherwin had a 611 00:23:36,039 --> 00:23:38,440 quote at the beginning of American Prometheus where 612 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:39,819 they said you cannot separate 613 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,759 the personal from the scientific. They go hand 614 00:23:42,759 --> 00:23:43,500 in hand. 615 00:23:44,039 --> 00:23:44,539 And 616 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:45,740 understanding 617 00:23:46,759 --> 00:23:48,859 the legacy of Robert Oppenheimer 618 00:23:49,319 --> 00:23:50,140 cannot be 619 00:23:50,505 --> 00:23:52,125 removed from understanding him 620 00:23:52,424 --> 00:23:53,164 as a person. 621 00:23:56,664 --> 00:23:59,464 We've actually already even had someone reach out 622 00:23:59,464 --> 00:24:01,144 and tell us that they were an educator, 623 00:24:01,144 --> 00:24:02,744 and they told us, oh, I got so 624 00:24:02,744 --> 00:24:05,160 excited when I heard that about these interviews 625 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:05,980 that I played 626 00:24:06,279 --> 00:24:08,539 the audio in the classroom for my students, 627 00:24:08,599 --> 00:24:09,419 and they were 628 00:24:10,039 --> 00:24:12,119 just really amazed. And it, like, it really 629 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,279 was a meaningful experience for them. I mean, 630 00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:17,160 Robert Oppenheimer's voice holds, like, so much gravity. 631 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,934 He's very interesting to listen to, and I 632 00:24:19,934 --> 00:24:21,554 encourage everyone to, 633 00:24:22,335 --> 00:24:24,755 give these interviews a listen. There's some 634 00:24:25,615 --> 00:24:26,755 really just, like, 635 00:24:28,015 --> 00:24:30,255 like, heavy quotes, but also, you know, quotes 636 00:24:30,255 --> 00:24:31,154 that contextualize 637 00:24:31,454 --> 00:24:32,434 him as a person. 638 00:24:33,929 --> 00:24:36,269 Yes. I think you saw that most strongly 639 00:24:37,130 --> 00:24:37,950 when Fermi 640 00:24:38,329 --> 00:24:41,450 lectured about or took an interest in a 641 00:24:41,450 --> 00:24:43,309 subject on which he never worked. 642 00:24:43,769 --> 00:24:46,994 He didn't do what most mortals do, which 643 00:24:46,994 --> 00:24:48,134 is read the literature 644 00:24:48,674 --> 00:24:51,634 and say, yes, he understood it, controlling a 645 00:24:51,634 --> 00:24:52,134 calculation 646 00:24:52,434 --> 00:24:53,254 here or 647 00:24:53,634 --> 00:24:55,335 making a connection there. 648 00:24:55,714 --> 00:24:58,514 He would essentially tear up the literature and 649 00:24:58,514 --> 00:24:59,654 do it over again, 650 00:25:00,034 --> 00:25:00,534 often, 651 00:25:01,950 --> 00:25:03,630 in a way that wasn't quite as good 652 00:25:03,630 --> 00:25:05,009 as what he tore up, 653 00:25:05,309 --> 00:25:06,130 but surprisingly 654 00:25:06,430 --> 00:25:08,190 often in a better way than had ever 655 00:25:08,190 --> 00:25:09,170 been done before. 656 00:25:09,630 --> 00:25:09,950 And, 657 00:25:10,670 --> 00:25:11,569 we owed 658 00:25:12,269 --> 00:25:13,009 the accessibility 659 00:25:13,390 --> 00:25:14,609 of quantum electrodynamics 660 00:25:15,230 --> 00:25:17,134 and a great deal that flowed from 661 00:25:17,914 --> 00:25:20,154 that to Fermi. He didn't make it. It 662 00:25:20,154 --> 00:25:22,255 was made by Dirac and by 663 00:25:23,035 --> 00:25:24,654 some other people, 664 00:25:25,035 --> 00:25:26,815 Heisenberg and Pavley and others. 665 00:25:27,835 --> 00:25:28,335 But 666 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,480 it was made in a very awkward way 667 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:32,539 and put off 668 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:33,820 all students, 669 00:25:34,759 --> 00:25:35,259 and 670 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,279 the family made it so that ordinary mortals 671 00:25:38,279 --> 00:25:38,779 could 672 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,180 understand and deal with it. 673 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,799 That was because he wanted to understand and 674 00:25:43,799 --> 00:25:44,204 deal with 675 00:25:45,005 --> 00:25:46,944 And the do it yourself quality 676 00:25:47,565 --> 00:25:49,804 applied not so much to the things he 677 00:25:49,804 --> 00:25:52,444 did himself, because that's true of any good 678 00:25:52,444 --> 00:25:52,944 scientist, 679 00:25:53,644 --> 00:25:55,565 but to the things that he learned from 680 00:25:55,565 --> 00:25:56,065 others. 681 00:25:57,099 --> 00:25:58,779 There was very little he learned by the 682 00:25:58,779 --> 00:25:59,279 book. 683 00:26:01,179 --> 00:26:03,259 Is that where would you start? Like, if 684 00:26:03,259 --> 00:26:05,339 you're a listener to the Physics World Stories 685 00:26:05,339 --> 00:26:07,259 podcast, which, of course, you are. But if 686 00:26:07,259 --> 00:26:09,339 if, if you were one and you only 687 00:26:09,339 --> 00:26:11,275 had, let's say, twenty minutes spare and you 688 00:26:11,275 --> 00:26:12,955 thought, I wanna dive into this, where would 689 00:26:12,955 --> 00:26:14,095 you personally start? 690 00:26:14,475 --> 00:26:16,634 I would start with the 1963 691 00:26:16,634 --> 00:26:17,134 interview, 692 00:26:17,755 --> 00:26:20,235 especially if you are a fan of, the 693 00:26:20,235 --> 00:26:23,275 Oppenheimer movie or American Prometheus. This was the 694 00:26:23,275 --> 00:26:24,494 interview that was 695 00:26:25,079 --> 00:26:26,220 utilized by, 696 00:26:26,679 --> 00:26:28,220 the authors of American Prometheus, 697 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,679 especially in understanding Robert Oppenheimer in his early 698 00:26:32,679 --> 00:26:33,179 life. 699 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,599 I would say that apart from this quirk 700 00:26:36,599 --> 00:26:37,419 about mineralogy 701 00:26:37,799 --> 00:26:39,994 and the abnormality of of Greek, 702 00:26:40,295 --> 00:26:43,095 I probably had what was then a good 703 00:26:43,095 --> 00:26:44,555 high school grounding 704 00:26:44,934 --> 00:26:47,414 and damn little more as far as knowing 705 00:26:47,414 --> 00:26:47,914 anything. 706 00:26:49,174 --> 00:26:52,309 I knew what the calculus was. I knew 707 00:26:52,369 --> 00:26:54,470 what analytic geometry was. 708 00:26:54,849 --> 00:26:56,769 But I had had no formal training in 709 00:26:56,769 --> 00:26:59,429 it. I probably looked at some texts. 710 00:27:00,690 --> 00:27:02,069 About physics, I 711 00:27:02,690 --> 00:27:03,990 had read, but in 712 00:27:05,009 --> 00:27:05,909 a completely 713 00:27:06,769 --> 00:27:07,269 unenlightened 714 00:27:08,424 --> 00:27:08,505 way, 715 00:27:09,305 --> 00:27:11,305 about physical chemistry, I should say, a good 716 00:27:11,305 --> 00:27:12,045 deal more 717 00:27:12,345 --> 00:27:14,664 than one normally would, but again, with no 718 00:27:14,664 --> 00:27:15,164 discipline 719 00:27:15,785 --> 00:27:16,605 and no 720 00:27:17,865 --> 00:27:18,365 coherence. 721 00:27:18,744 --> 00:27:20,265 So that I think you could say that 722 00:27:20,265 --> 00:27:21,484 when I went to Harvard, 723 00:27:22,025 --> 00:27:22,684 I was 724 00:27:23,429 --> 00:27:25,990 as well formed as the high schools of 725 00:27:25,990 --> 00:27:28,490 the time. Formed people, but not any better. 726 00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:30,389 So I think that one that one is 727 00:27:30,389 --> 00:27:32,710 the longest, but it is a good starting 728 00:27:32,710 --> 00:27:34,470 point if you are already a little bit 729 00:27:34,470 --> 00:27:34,970 familiar. 730 00:27:36,295 --> 00:27:39,035 And then reading the 1960 731 00:27:39,095 --> 00:27:39,595 interview 732 00:27:40,295 --> 00:27:41,595 that was, conducted 733 00:27:43,174 --> 00:27:45,494 for a more popular magazine is also just 734 00:27:45,494 --> 00:27:48,234 fascinating. It's about the Trinity test. 735 00:27:48,855 --> 00:27:49,355 And 736 00:27:50,890 --> 00:27:53,390 while it doesn't present anything, you know, extraordinarily 737 00:27:53,929 --> 00:27:55,869 new, it does present some 738 00:27:56,170 --> 00:27:57,150 personal sentiments 739 00:27:57,769 --> 00:28:00,329 of Oppenheimer's that kind of throw a new 740 00:28:00,329 --> 00:28:01,789 light on his perspective. 741 00:28:03,055 --> 00:28:05,875 The the purpose of archiving things is 742 00:28:06,414 --> 00:28:08,494 to make the future better. Right? Isn't it? 743 00:28:08,494 --> 00:28:10,335 Isn't that the case? So what do you 744 00:28:10,335 --> 00:28:13,295 hope we could learn from this that would 745 00:28:13,295 --> 00:28:14,755 inform physics, inform, 746 00:28:15,214 --> 00:28:16,734 the way we do physics, and and the 747 00:28:16,734 --> 00:28:17,309 way we 748 00:28:17,870 --> 00:28:20,350 manage the world and politics and physics because, 749 00:28:20,350 --> 00:28:22,850 certainly, that comes into Oppenheimer's world as well. 750 00:28:23,309 --> 00:28:25,170 I think science gets transformed 751 00:28:27,710 --> 00:28:29,809 in ways that are outside of the control 752 00:28:29,870 --> 00:28:31,170 of the individual 753 00:28:31,470 --> 00:28:31,970 scientists 754 00:28:32,975 --> 00:28:34,994 who, you know, pursue knowledge 755 00:28:35,695 --> 00:28:37,315 often for the sake of knowledge. 756 00:28:40,975 --> 00:28:43,055 But the the science and physics that they 757 00:28:43,055 --> 00:28:44,115 do and they create, 758 00:28:47,850 --> 00:28:49,289 it kind of falls out of their control 759 00:28:49,289 --> 00:28:51,289 and out of their hands at various points 760 00:28:51,289 --> 00:28:52,029 in time. 761 00:28:53,850 --> 00:28:56,570 So by, you know, conducting this work in 762 00:28:56,570 --> 00:28:58,830 the history of science and connecting it 763 00:28:59,134 --> 00:29:00,195 more to the personal. 764 00:29:01,134 --> 00:29:02,975 You can kind of trace the science back 765 00:29:02,975 --> 00:29:05,375 to, you know, its creation and and its 766 00:29:05,934 --> 00:29:07,394 the intent of 767 00:29:07,695 --> 00:29:10,035 those who are originally conducting the research. 768 00:29:10,335 --> 00:29:11,475 And I think that 769 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,740 it's more inspiring than maybe what the ultimate 770 00:29:15,119 --> 00:29:17,279 the ultimate use of that science can be. 771 00:29:17,279 --> 00:29:18,640 Is there anything else that you sort of 772 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:19,920 come out of it that you just like 773 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,559 to share? I've just gained an appreciation for 774 00:29:22,559 --> 00:29:24,900 the history of science community and for 775 00:29:25,414 --> 00:29:25,914 the, 776 00:29:26,775 --> 00:29:29,595 donors to the Niels Bohr Library and Archives 777 00:29:29,654 --> 00:29:30,394 at AIP. 778 00:29:30,855 --> 00:29:32,075 There's just such an enthusiasm 779 00:29:32,615 --> 00:29:33,115 for 780 00:29:33,575 --> 00:29:36,454 encouraging history of science research and supporting each 781 00:29:36,454 --> 00:29:36,954 other. 782 00:29:37,539 --> 00:29:39,779 I've deepened relationships with all of these groups 783 00:29:39,779 --> 00:29:41,380 through this process, and, 784 00:29:41,940 --> 00:29:44,180 it's just been very exciting and, 785 00:29:45,059 --> 00:29:46,359 really meaningful to me. 786 00:29:46,900 --> 00:29:48,900 Okay. Is there is there more Oppenheimer to 787 00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:50,420 come, or are you moving on to other 788 00:29:50,420 --> 00:29:53,315 people now? Not more Oppenheimer at the moment, 789 00:29:54,575 --> 00:29:56,595 but Oppenheimer existed in 790 00:29:56,894 --> 00:30:00,335 a vast network of scientists in The United 791 00:30:00,335 --> 00:30:01,315 States and abroad. 792 00:30:02,095 --> 00:30:02,755 I think 793 00:30:03,420 --> 00:30:04,559 starting with Oppenheimer, 794 00:30:06,299 --> 00:30:08,460 but branching out to various other parts of 795 00:30:08,460 --> 00:30:09,119 this network 796 00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:13,200 and opening up more material from, 797 00:30:14,059 --> 00:30:14,880 his contemporaries 798 00:30:15,180 --> 00:30:16,424 will maybe be next. 799 00:30:17,384 --> 00:30:19,225 Okay. And people or what if people want 800 00:30:19,225 --> 00:30:20,825 to find out, be the first to know 801 00:30:20,825 --> 00:30:22,205 where would they go for that. 802 00:30:22,585 --> 00:30:25,404 I would encourage them to subscribe to AIP's 803 00:30:25,465 --> 00:30:28,605 history newsletter, the Niels Bohr Library and Archives 804 00:30:28,664 --> 00:30:29,065 blog, 805 00:30:29,849 --> 00:30:32,109 or just AIP's general social media. 806 00:30:32,970 --> 00:30:34,890 Okay. We'll post links to all of that 807 00:30:34,890 --> 00:30:37,210 on the Physics World website, physicsworld.com. 808 00:30:37,210 --> 00:30:38,890 And thank you very much for talking to 809 00:30:38,890 --> 00:30:40,509 me. Yeah. Thank you very much, Andrew. 810 00:30:40,890 --> 00:30:42,410 You will, of course, find all that on 811 00:30:42,410 --> 00:30:43,369 physicsworld.com 812 00:30:43,369 --> 00:30:45,184 where you'll also find the interview that I 813 00:30:45,184 --> 00:30:46,565 did with Kai Bird 814 00:30:47,025 --> 00:30:49,125 just after the film was released, Oppenheimer, 815 00:30:49,744 --> 00:30:51,125 starring Cillian Murphy, 816 00:30:51,505 --> 00:30:54,164 based on the book American Prometheus, the triumph 817 00:30:54,224 --> 00:30:56,244 and tragedy of J Robert Oppenheimer, 818 00:30:56,545 --> 00:30:59,769 written by Kai Bird and Martin j Sherwin. 819 00:30:59,829 --> 00:31:01,429 Thank you very much for listening to this 820 00:31:01,429 --> 00:31:03,269 episode of the physics world stories podcast. I 821 00:31:03,269 --> 00:31:04,789 wanted to make it a little bit shorter 822 00:31:04,789 --> 00:31:07,190 because I'm really hoping that like me what 823 00:31:07,190 --> 00:31:09,349 you're now going to do is dive into 824 00:31:09,349 --> 00:31:11,190 those recordings and I didn't want to take 825 00:31:11,190 --> 00:31:12,470 up too much of your time before you 826 00:31:12,470 --> 00:31:14,309 get on with that. We'll be back next 827 00:31:14,309 --> 00:31:15,285 month with 828 00:31:15,825 --> 00:31:17,825 I'm pretty sure we'll be looking back at 829 00:31:17,825 --> 00:31:19,984 the Artemis two mission and thank you very 830 00:31:19,984 --> 00:31:21,045 much for listening.