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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World Stories

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podcast.

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I'm Andrew Glaeser. And in today's episode, we're

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exploring a story that sits at the intersection

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of nuclear physics,

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environmental recovery,

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and apple brandy. On 04/26/1986,

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the world changed. A disaster at the Chernobyl

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Nuclear Power Plant released a plume of radioactive

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isotopes

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across Europe. A thousand square mile exclusion zone

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was created that many assumed would be a

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dead wasteland for centuries.

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Fast forward to 2011,

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and the Fukushima accident in Japan

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reignited global fears about how radiation interacts with

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our food, our water, and our wilderness.

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But my guest today sees a different story

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within the data.

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Professor Jim Smith is a physicist who spent

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nearly forty years studying these areas, and he's

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discovered that while humans fled, nature staged a

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takeover

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with wolves, bison, and boar thriving in the

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absence of people. But it didn't stop at

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observation.

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He's the driving force between the atomic spirits

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project, a social enterprise that takes crops grown

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within the exclusion zones around Chernobyl in Ukraine

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through the science of fractional distillation

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turns them into safe, high quality apple brandy

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and apple schnapps.

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It's a project which challenges our deepest fears

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about radioactive land and asks, if the physics

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says it's safe,

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why are we still afraid?

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At the end of this podcast, you'll find

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whether I'm convinced to drink some of the

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apple brandy. Here's professor Jim Smith. I'm professor

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of environmental science at the University of Portsmouth.

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I'm originally

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I was trained in astrophysics

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and applied maths,

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but I study the nuclear

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accidents and radiation in the environment, in particular,

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the Chernobyl accident in Ukraine and the Fukushima

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accident in Japan. Why did you move from

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astrophysics into that? I think I wanted to

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do something which at the time I perceived

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as more useful.

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And that probably it was a probably a

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naive,

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move, but,

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I wanted to do something at the time.

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You know, the Kyoto protocol was coming out.

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We were worried about climate change. I was

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I was in the student green party at

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my university,

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and I wanted to do something to help

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the environment.

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And I don't regret the move. I've really

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loved every minute of it. Well, perhaps not

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every minute, but I've loved the move from

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physics to environmental science because, basically,

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you know, the environment, you can treat as

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a physical system as well. Because the environment

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is quite a big topic. Right? There's lots

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of different aspects of it. Did you immediately

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go into this sort of,

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nuclear disaster side of things? No. I didn't.

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I,

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I did a master's. I wanted to convert,

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so I did a master's in soil and

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water engineering.

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Originally thinking I was going to

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dig wells in irrigation systems in Africa. That

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was my idea.

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And then I saw a PhD advertised for,

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mathematical modeling of radioactivity

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in the English Lake District.

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So, of course,

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there was some fallout from the Chernobyl accident

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in parts of

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Northern England,

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Scotland, and and Wales where it rained

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when the plume of

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radioactive

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particles and gases was passing The UK.

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And there was a PhD on mathematical

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modeling of that, and I thought that sounds

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right up my

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my street. And I I've kind of it's

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been my career, really, looking at where radioactivity

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goes in the environment and how to deal

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with the recovery from nuclear accident.

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So,

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I and most of the people

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who I've spoken to

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about the fact that I'm going to be

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doing this interview, there's a mixture, really.

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I saw most. There is a mixture. It's

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probably fifty fifty of people either going, that's

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terrifying

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or that's really fascinating.

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How is it for you? What do people

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say when you tell them what you research?

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Well, I I think the truth is that

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it's both.

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And you do get mixed mixed reactions.

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I think thing perceptions have changed, obviously, over

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the decades since the accident. For people as

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old as me,

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we have vivid kind of memories even of

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that time when nobody quite knew what had

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happened, and it came out that there'd been

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this terrible accident. And there was all sorts

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of speculation about how many people had

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accident. And there was all sorts of speculation

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about how many people had died and how

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many people were going to die from the

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radiation releases and the things that the Soviet

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Union did and didn't do to to help

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people after the accident. And so,

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it was a horrifying event,

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but we we've learned a lot from it.

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And one of the things we've learned is

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that

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the the reaction of people and the reaction

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of systems and

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politicians

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to the accident has

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caused

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perhaps more problems than the direct radiation itself.

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You know, the

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the the problems the psychological and social problems

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of moving. So

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300,000

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people were permanently evacuated from their homes. The

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Chernobyl Exclusion Zone was created, which is about

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the size of Hampshire. It's a giant area

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of land.

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And that social disruption

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together with the kind of

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collapse of health services, collapse of employment when

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the Soviet Union collapsed

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caused real

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economic hardship.

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The loss of land which was abandoned due

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to contamination

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caused real economic hardship and and real

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fear amongst people about what the consequences of

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the radiation was. And in indeed,

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I was involved twenty years after,

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after Chernobyl

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back in 2006

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in the UN report on the accident. And

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one of the conclusions of that was that

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the the social and psychological

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impacts of the accident were greater

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than the direct radiation

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impacts.

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And we've sort of been working. You know,

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I've spent a lot of time on outreach,

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on public communication

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about the risks because

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people are over in Ukraine, Belarus, Russia,

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in those affected areas tend to overestimate

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the real risk of radiation to their health,

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and that in itself has significant

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consequences on communities.

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I'm sure there's at least one person who's

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listening to this and go, what are you

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saying there shouldn't have been an exclusion zone

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at all? It shouldn't have happened. That's a

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really good question. That's a really good question.

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Yes, there should.

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Whether it should have been the extent it

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was

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or whether

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it should have been

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reduced in size in the years after the

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accident. So at Fukushima, there's still an exclusion

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zone at Fukushima and and a very large

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one,

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but gradually, that's been reduced in size over

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the sort of fifteen years since since the

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accident.

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Certainly, there are parts of the current exclusion

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zone which could be reinhabited

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now,

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safely.

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But there are parts which you still wouldn't

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want to live in by any means.

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And so the the question is quite complex,

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and it sort of depends on your risk

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tolerance and

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and so on. But what what I think

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is clear is that particularly in Ukraine, the

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the recovery

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of land hasn't been as fast as it

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should have been.

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And so the the main exclusion zone has

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been designated as a nature reserve. We did

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a a lot of work about

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ten years ago on the mammals in the

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exclusion zone and found that the mammals in

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in

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the the Belarusian sector of the exclusion zone

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so that the exclusion zone covers Ukraine and

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Belarus because Chernobyl's on on the border more

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or less.

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The the mammal densities

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were as high as you see in other

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nature reserves in the region,

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and that's not because

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radiation is good for the the animals. In

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fact, the the wolf population is seven times

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higher in the exclusion zone than than in

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other nature reserves. Not because the radiation is

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good for the animals, but because the the

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reduction of the human population, so no hunting,

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no fishing,

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no forestry,

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and no agriculture. Just humans being in an

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ecosystem

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is worse for the environment than the world's

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worst ever nuclear accident.

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And that gives us an interesting perspective. So

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it's not to say that that radiation's safe.

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It's just that there are a lot of

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other things that are that are less safe.

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And what's what's really interesting, of course, you

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know, we we we we we protect humans

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much more than we do animals. So we're

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worried about a very small, something like

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one in ten thousand risk of a person

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getting cancer in later life

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from a radiation exposure.

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But if we

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abandon land and there's there's about 2,000 square

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kilometers of land in Ukraine outside the main

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exclusion zone

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where there's still people living,

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but there's no official use of agricultural land

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allowed.

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And myself and my Ukrainian

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colleagues have been trying for a long time

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to get that land reclassified.

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But it's a very, very difficult political question

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to do that.

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But I think certainly,

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in that area, outside the main exclusion zone,

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the the impacts of the taking land out

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of production

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has been much worse than the radiation impacts

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would be of using that land.

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I'd I'd I think it's extraordinary. I thought

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I'm gonna come back to that. But can

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you just you've been to Chernobyl. Right? You've

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been to Yeah. Yeah. So can to to

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for those people who have never been there

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and probably never will be. Well, so can

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you talk us through what it's like? What's

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it like compared to because I'm I'm fascinated

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by that as somebody who's in interested in

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environmental science. I'm fascinated

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by what the planet would be like. And

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I don't don't want people to take offense

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at this. It's just a thought experiment.

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What what the planet would be like without

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people on it?

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Well,

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I mean, we we we are by far,

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obviously, the biggest impact on the

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planetary ecosystem of anything. And Chernobyl is, you

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know, it's

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00:10:49,799 --> 00:10:50,940
it's now kind of

278
00:10:51,934 --> 00:10:55,375
seen as amongst the ecological circles as a

279
00:10:55,375 --> 00:10:56,834
as a iconic

280
00:10:57,615 --> 00:10:58,115
rewilding,

281
00:10:59,375 --> 00:11:00,514
albeit accidental

282
00:11:01,214 --> 00:11:02,674
and under very terrible

283
00:11:03,054 --> 00:11:03,554
circumstances

284
00:11:03,934 --> 00:11:04,995
for many people.

285
00:11:06,889 --> 00:11:09,870
But it it it does demonstrate very clearly

286
00:11:09,929 --> 00:11:11,309
what we do just

287
00:11:11,610 --> 00:11:12,110
inhabiting

288
00:11:13,049 --> 00:11:13,710
a landscape.

289
00:11:15,290 --> 00:11:17,210
When you go there now I I used

290
00:11:17,210 --> 00:11:19,549
to visit the town of Pripyat. So Pripyat

291
00:11:19,610 --> 00:11:21,129
is the town that was built for the

292
00:11:21,129 --> 00:11:23,575
workers at Chernobyl. It's right next to the

293
00:11:23,575 --> 00:11:25,514
plant. It's about a kilometer away.

294
00:11:26,855 --> 00:11:28,855
And, you know, in the nineteen nineties, you

295
00:11:28,855 --> 00:11:30,475
would start to go see,

296
00:11:30,934 --> 00:11:33,754
you know, trees growing in roads and and

297
00:11:33,975 --> 00:11:36,210
the the forest that there's a sports field,

298
00:11:36,210 --> 00:11:37,509
which had a a small

299
00:11:37,810 --> 00:11:39,190
a small wood in it.

300
00:11:40,769 --> 00:11:42,690
When you when I was going in sort

301
00:11:42,690 --> 00:11:44,529
of, you know, 2010,

302
00:11:44,529 --> 00:11:45,590
2012,

303
00:11:46,610 --> 00:11:48,769
you could barely see some of the huge

304
00:11:48,769 --> 00:11:51,375
buildings. You know, it's a Soviet apartment blocks.

305
00:11:51,375 --> 00:11:53,294
You could barely see them for for the

306
00:11:53,294 --> 00:11:55,235
trees, and you weren't worried about

307
00:11:55,695 --> 00:11:58,095
the radiation. You were worried about, you know,

308
00:11:58,095 --> 00:12:00,095
a rock a piece of concrete falling on

309
00:12:00,095 --> 00:12:02,514
your head or something like that. And

310
00:12:03,460 --> 00:12:05,220
and and and but at the same time,

311
00:12:05,220 --> 00:12:08,179
by the end of the sort of February,

312
00:12:08,179 --> 00:12:10,759
the tourism was really taking off at Chernobyl.

313
00:12:10,820 --> 00:12:12,580
So we we would we used to go

314
00:12:12,580 --> 00:12:13,240
and we'd

315
00:12:13,940 --> 00:12:16,904
for health and safety reasons, we would and

316
00:12:16,965 --> 00:12:19,605
and protocol, we will be wearing kind of

317
00:12:19,605 --> 00:12:20,105
contamination

318
00:12:20,565 --> 00:12:21,065
suits.

319
00:12:21,764 --> 00:12:23,764
Not that they really, you know, made a

320
00:12:23,764 --> 00:12:26,085
difference or were really necessary, but that was

321
00:12:26,085 --> 00:12:27,304
the protocol. And

322
00:12:27,684 --> 00:12:29,764
we will be wandering around in contamination suits,

323
00:12:29,764 --> 00:12:31,919
and there'd be tourists turning up in buses

324
00:12:31,919 --> 00:12:32,419
taking

325
00:12:32,879 --> 00:12:34,959
photographs, quite rightly, because it's not you know,

326
00:12:34,959 --> 00:12:37,379
a short visit there isn't isn't really dangerous.

327
00:12:38,879 --> 00:12:40,959
So it was beginning to open up to

328
00:12:40,959 --> 00:12:42,879
tourism, but then, of course, first, there was

329
00:12:42,879 --> 00:12:44,879
COVID, and then there was the terrible war

330
00:12:44,879 --> 00:12:47,284
in Ukraine, which shut it all down again.

331
00:12:47,504 --> 00:12:49,585
But it is a very strange place. I

332
00:12:49,585 --> 00:12:52,065
haven't been in the in the Unit 4,

333
00:12:52,065 --> 00:12:54,304
the reactor that exploded, but I've been in

334
00:12:54,304 --> 00:12:56,384
Unit 3, the next door one, and the

335
00:12:56,384 --> 00:12:58,860
control room, which is a kind of mirror

336
00:12:58,860 --> 00:13:00,080
image of the unit,

337
00:13:00,460 --> 00:13:03,660
4 Control Room. And it it for me,

338
00:13:03,660 --> 00:13:06,620
especially having spent really my life studying this

339
00:13:06,620 --> 00:13:08,080
accident, it's a

340
00:13:08,620 --> 00:13:10,860
very emotional place to be to think that

341
00:13:10,860 --> 00:13:12,720
that that was the place where

342
00:13:13,495 --> 00:13:15,834
so many things changed in the world.

343
00:13:17,014 --> 00:13:18,954
Mikhail Gorbachev, the former,

344
00:13:19,654 --> 00:13:21,355
president of the Soviet Union,

345
00:13:21,975 --> 00:13:24,934
attributed in in large part, not in totally,

346
00:13:24,934 --> 00:13:27,589
but in in part, the the collapse of

347
00:13:27,589 --> 00:13:30,169
the Soviet Union to the Chernobyl accident.

348
00:13:30,709 --> 00:13:33,209
Because it was so very clearly demonstrated

349
00:13:33,509 --> 00:13:34,169
to people,

350
00:13:34,549 --> 00:13:36,470
you know, the the the the thing that

351
00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:38,230
the Soviet Union did for people was it

352
00:13:38,230 --> 00:13:40,149
that it it made them feel that they

353
00:13:40,149 --> 00:13:41,450
were being looked after.

354
00:13:42,034 --> 00:13:44,754
Not looked after particularly well, but the communist

355
00:13:44,754 --> 00:13:45,975
system people had jobs.

356
00:13:46,355 --> 00:13:47,254
They were poor,

357
00:13:48,034 --> 00:13:50,834
but they felt safe. And and it made

358
00:13:50,914 --> 00:13:51,975
it kind of exposed

359
00:13:52,355 --> 00:13:53,654
the huge flaws

360
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,279
in the Soviet system. And and and I

361
00:13:56,279 --> 00:13:59,179
I believe Gorbachev when he says that Chernobyl

362
00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,160
was one of the catalysts for the for

363
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:02,700
the break of the Soviet Union.

364
00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,100
So this terrible accident had

365
00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:06,860
far reaching effects

366
00:14:07,544 --> 00:14:09,245
all over the world. And

367
00:14:09,625 --> 00:14:10,284
to to

368
00:14:11,065 --> 00:14:13,004
to stand in the control room

369
00:14:13,625 --> 00:14:17,144
next door to Unit 4, which exploded, is

370
00:14:17,144 --> 00:14:17,644
quite

371
00:14:18,504 --> 00:14:21,804
a quite an emotional and and fascinating experience.

372
00:14:23,370 --> 00:14:25,049
So I I you talk about the risk.

373
00:14:25,049 --> 00:14:26,809
You talk about, you know, you've not been

374
00:14:26,809 --> 00:14:27,789
in Unit 4.

375
00:14:29,049 --> 00:14:31,929
A short visit is fine. So what what

376
00:14:31,929 --> 00:14:33,850
is it? What what is the risk of

377
00:14:33,850 --> 00:14:35,230
going there? Right.

378
00:14:36,495 --> 00:14:38,414
That's a that's a good question. I mean,

379
00:14:38,414 --> 00:14:40,575
it obviously depends how long you stay there.

380
00:14:40,575 --> 00:14:43,294
So we would typically so we we did

381
00:14:43,294 --> 00:14:44,975
a lot of work on on on the

382
00:14:44,975 --> 00:14:48,254
lakes around Chernobyl, so including the the cooling

383
00:14:48,254 --> 00:14:50,894
pond that that provided the cooling water for

384
00:14:50,894 --> 00:14:52,035
the for the reactors,

385
00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:55,269
and some other lakes that they're even more

386
00:14:55,269 --> 00:14:55,769
contaminated.

387
00:14:56,070 --> 00:14:58,709
So we would spend sort of ten days

388
00:14:58,709 --> 00:15:02,490
visit visiting areas of varying levels of contamination,

389
00:15:02,949 --> 00:15:05,144
and we would get so we measure radiation

390
00:15:06,085 --> 00:15:08,024
dose in what's called millisieverts.

391
00:15:09,365 --> 00:15:11,924
So millisievert is a nice physics unit that

392
00:15:11,924 --> 00:15:14,904
we physicists like because it measures how much

393
00:15:14,964 --> 00:15:17,125
radiation has been absorbed by your body, and

394
00:15:17,125 --> 00:15:18,345
you can measure it.

395
00:15:18,899 --> 00:15:20,899
But it also allows you and this is

396
00:15:20,899 --> 00:15:23,620
where it gets into biology and statistics of

397
00:15:23,620 --> 00:15:25,240
working out cancer risk,

398
00:15:25,940 --> 00:15:28,019
but it also allows you to calculate your

399
00:15:28,019 --> 00:15:29,000
risk of cancer

400
00:15:30,339 --> 00:15:31,720
based on all the epidemiological

401
00:15:32,419 --> 00:15:34,914
studies that have been done of radiation and

402
00:15:34,914 --> 00:15:38,835
cancer, particularly the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bomb

403
00:15:38,835 --> 00:15:39,335
survivors.

404
00:15:39,955 --> 00:15:41,875
And so so I go I go for

405
00:15:41,875 --> 00:15:43,794
about oh, yeah. I used to before the

406
00:15:43,794 --> 00:15:45,794
war. I used to go for about ten

407
00:15:45,794 --> 00:15:48,115
days doing field work in the zone and

408
00:15:48,115 --> 00:15:49,095
other areas, and

409
00:15:49,529 --> 00:15:51,610
and I would get about 0.1

410
00:15:51,610 --> 00:15:52,110
millisieverts

411
00:15:52,490 --> 00:15:53,149
of radiation.

412
00:15:54,250 --> 00:15:56,410
And what does that mean? Well, in The

413
00:15:56,410 --> 00:15:58,029
UK, we get about

414
00:15:58,570 --> 00:15:59,710
2.7

415
00:16:00,410 --> 00:16:00,910
millisieverts

416
00:16:01,290 --> 00:16:03,950
per year. So 27 times higher

417
00:16:04,475 --> 00:16:07,615
from natural radiate from cosmic radiation, from,

418
00:16:08,235 --> 00:16:10,715
radon gas that's in the rocks and in

419
00:16:10,715 --> 00:16:12,014
our houses, from,

420
00:16:12,955 --> 00:16:15,195
from natural radiation in the earth and in

421
00:16:15,195 --> 00:16:15,935
our bodies.

422
00:16:16,460 --> 00:16:18,160
So 27 times higher.

423
00:16:18,779 --> 00:16:20,860
So that's you know, I feel that my

424
00:16:20,860 --> 00:16:23,740
ten days in Chernobyl isn't really a worry,

425
00:16:23,740 --> 00:16:25,740
and I indeed, I get almost the same

426
00:16:25,740 --> 00:16:26,960
dose on the airplane.

427
00:16:27,820 --> 00:16:28,559
And certainly,

428
00:16:28,940 --> 00:16:31,595
in in many areas in the exclusion zone,

429
00:16:31,595 --> 00:16:34,154
the radiation dose rate is less than what

430
00:16:34,154 --> 00:16:36,095
you would get on an air aircraft.

431
00:16:37,595 --> 00:16:39,355
And and then we can do statistic you

432
00:16:39,355 --> 00:16:41,595
know, if we believe the statistics, we can

433
00:16:41,595 --> 00:16:43,595
then say, well, that that one point one

434
00:16:43,595 --> 00:16:45,054
millisieva of radiation,

435
00:16:46,019 --> 00:16:48,420
that translates to about a one in a

436
00:16:48,420 --> 00:16:51,700
hundred thousand chance of me getting cancer in

437
00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:54,019
later life, so my life being shortened by

438
00:16:54,019 --> 00:16:54,519
cancer.

439
00:16:55,460 --> 00:16:57,139
And and I accept that as a risk.

440
00:16:57,139 --> 00:16:58,980
You know, it's much lower than the natural

441
00:16:58,980 --> 00:16:59,480
radiation

442
00:17:00,274 --> 00:17:03,075
risk. In theory, it's much lower than the

443
00:17:03,075 --> 00:17:06,355
risk you get of other illnesses from air

444
00:17:06,355 --> 00:17:06,855
pollution

445
00:17:07,315 --> 00:17:07,974
in cities.

446
00:17:08,434 --> 00:17:10,595
And so it's an acceptable risk. But it

447
00:17:10,595 --> 00:17:12,934
it the the the kind of physics and

448
00:17:13,075 --> 00:17:14,134
the radio biology

449
00:17:14,970 --> 00:17:17,289
is very powerful because it allows us to

450
00:17:17,289 --> 00:17:18,509
say what's the risk,

451
00:17:18,970 --> 00:17:21,390
is that an acceptable risk for people,

452
00:17:22,009 --> 00:17:24,089
and do do we, for example, do we

453
00:17:24,089 --> 00:17:25,390
evacuate an area,

454
00:17:26,089 --> 00:17:27,549
do we stop

455
00:17:27,964 --> 00:17:30,285
crop production and so on? So it's very

456
00:17:30,285 --> 00:17:30,785
powerful.

457
00:17:31,404 --> 00:17:34,065
But the decisions finally are made by politicians

458
00:17:35,005 --> 00:17:37,825
and not by physicists so that the physicists

459
00:17:37,884 --> 00:17:39,105
and radio biologists

460
00:17:39,404 --> 00:17:43,230
can provide the risk estimates, but the decisions

461
00:17:43,230 --> 00:17:45,390
about what you do after a nuclear accident

462
00:17:45,390 --> 00:17:47,170
end up being taken by politicians.

463
00:17:48,750 --> 00:17:50,269
Do you feel like the lessons are being

464
00:17:50,269 --> 00:17:51,630
learned though? Do you feel like I mean,

465
00:17:51,630 --> 00:17:54,029
let's let's really hope that it doesn't happen

466
00:17:54,029 --> 00:17:55,570
again. But if it did happen

467
00:17:56,509 --> 00:17:57,255
somewhere else,

468
00:17:58,454 --> 00:17:59,654
that's really hard to say, isn't it? Because

469
00:17:59,654 --> 00:18:01,255
it depends on who the politicians are. Well,

470
00:18:01,255 --> 00:18:01,994
I mean, it

471
00:18:02,535 --> 00:18:03,994
It it has happened at Fukushima,

472
00:18:04,295 --> 00:18:07,095
of course. And Fukushima wasn't wasn't as bad

473
00:18:07,095 --> 00:18:09,355
as Chernobyl in the sense that it wasn't

474
00:18:09,734 --> 00:18:11,894
a explosion in the reactor core. So in

475
00:18:11,894 --> 00:18:14,990
Chernobyl, there were actually bits of nuclear fuel,

476
00:18:14,990 --> 00:18:15,490
tiny

477
00:18:16,109 --> 00:18:19,390
particles of nuclear fuels spread around the exclusion

478
00:18:19,390 --> 00:18:20,609
zone. So that carried

479
00:18:21,230 --> 00:18:21,950
much more

480
00:18:22,509 --> 00:18:25,710
a much wider range of radioactive elements into

481
00:18:25,710 --> 00:18:26,369
the environment.

482
00:18:27,295 --> 00:18:30,035
But in many ways, it was similar because

483
00:18:30,494 --> 00:18:31,875
you had radioisotopes

484
00:18:32,575 --> 00:18:34,195
like radioactive iodine

485
00:18:34,575 --> 00:18:37,615
and radioactive caesium, which were particular problems at

486
00:18:37,615 --> 00:18:38,835
Chernobyl as well

487
00:18:39,230 --> 00:18:41,009
in Japan. But the Japanese

488
00:18:41,390 --> 00:18:43,950
dealt with the aftermath much better than the

489
00:18:43,950 --> 00:18:45,090
Soviets did.

490
00:18:45,549 --> 00:18:47,309
And so one thing that they did the

491
00:18:47,309 --> 00:18:49,009
the one cancer that's been

492
00:18:49,309 --> 00:18:49,809
unequivocally,

493
00:18:52,234 --> 00:18:53,454
attributed to

494
00:18:53,835 --> 00:18:54,335
Chernobyl

495
00:18:54,794 --> 00:18:57,595
in Ukraine and Belarus and and Russia is

496
00:18:57,595 --> 00:18:59,134
thyroid cancer. So

497
00:18:59,595 --> 00:19:02,654
that comes from our listeners might know about

498
00:19:02,714 --> 00:19:05,130
half life of radioactive elements. So

499
00:19:06,250 --> 00:19:09,130
so, iodine one three one has a eight

500
00:19:09,130 --> 00:19:12,170
day half life. So every eight days, half

501
00:19:12,170 --> 00:19:13,849
of it's gone from the environment. So it

502
00:19:13,849 --> 00:19:15,930
was only around for a few weeks after

503
00:19:15,930 --> 00:19:16,589
the accident

504
00:19:16,970 --> 00:19:18,349
in significant quantities,

505
00:19:19,315 --> 00:19:20,215
but it,

506
00:19:21,154 --> 00:19:23,975
the Soviets failed to stop people and particularly

507
00:19:24,195 --> 00:19:25,255
children from

508
00:19:25,955 --> 00:19:26,934
eating contaminated

509
00:19:27,235 --> 00:19:29,654
produce and drinking contaminated milk.

510
00:19:30,115 --> 00:19:31,575
And and when you

511
00:19:32,460 --> 00:19:35,279
absorb in your body either nonradioactive

512
00:19:35,980 --> 00:19:36,880
stable iodine

513
00:19:37,339 --> 00:19:39,980
or iodine one three one, then almost all

514
00:19:39,980 --> 00:19:42,559
of it goes into the small thyroid gland

515
00:19:42,619 --> 00:19:45,039
gland in your neck because it's used for

516
00:19:45,339 --> 00:19:46,480
thyroid hormone.

517
00:19:47,444 --> 00:19:47,944
And

518
00:19:48,325 --> 00:19:50,884
so children in the in The Soviet Union

519
00:19:50,884 --> 00:19:53,784
were getting really, really high doses of

520
00:19:54,404 --> 00:19:56,744
radioactive iodine to the thyroid,

521
00:19:57,284 --> 00:19:59,704
and that has led to an increase in

522
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:01,460
thyroid cancer.

523
00:20:02,079 --> 00:20:02,980
There's been,

524
00:20:05,039 --> 00:20:07,599
since '20 up to 2015,

525
00:20:07,599 --> 00:20:10,019
there were about five thousand extra cases

526
00:20:10,559 --> 00:20:13,220
caused by the radiation. That's the best estimate.

527
00:20:14,634 --> 00:20:15,134
Ironically,

528
00:20:16,315 --> 00:20:18,255
thyroid cancer is treated by

529
00:20:18,634 --> 00:20:21,194
radioactive iodine one three one. So the the

530
00:20:21,194 --> 00:20:23,835
thyroid's injected with a huge dose to to

531
00:20:23,835 --> 00:20:26,309
kill the cancer cells, and then people are

532
00:20:26,309 --> 00:20:27,029
given for,

533
00:20:27,509 --> 00:20:30,069
hormone replacement therapy for the rest of their

534
00:20:30,069 --> 00:20:30,569
lives.

535
00:20:31,190 --> 00:20:33,349
And so it's a serious disease, but in

536
00:20:33,349 --> 00:20:35,609
ninety nine percent of cases, it's treatable.

537
00:20:36,549 --> 00:20:38,730
And that's the one cancer that's been

538
00:20:39,734 --> 00:20:42,474
been attributed to to Chernobyl unequivocally.

539
00:20:43,095 --> 00:20:45,515
Others have been much more difficult to find.

540
00:20:45,734 --> 00:20:47,914
Now in in Fukushima in Japan,

541
00:20:48,375 --> 00:20:51,275
a lot of radioactive iodine was was

542
00:20:52,599 --> 00:20:53,899
expelled into the environment,

543
00:20:54,919 --> 00:20:55,419
but

544
00:20:56,279 --> 00:20:58,779
the Japanese were very good at stopping

545
00:20:59,399 --> 00:21:02,139
contaminated produce getting into the food chain.

546
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,759
And so so far, there hasn't been any

547
00:21:04,759 --> 00:21:06,059
evidence of an increase

548
00:21:06,424 --> 00:21:08,605
in thyroid cancer from Fukushima.

549
00:21:10,025 --> 00:21:13,565
Okay. So, essentially, if it did happen again,

550
00:21:13,625 --> 00:21:16,184
the lessons are there. We we wouldn't have

551
00:21:16,184 --> 00:21:17,085
to do things

552
00:21:18,184 --> 00:21:21,644
wrong this time. Yes. But it wouldn't necessarily

553
00:21:23,779 --> 00:21:26,579
help so much. You know, a nuclear disaster

554
00:21:26,579 --> 00:21:28,820
is a nuclear disaster, and it's a terrible

555
00:21:28,820 --> 00:21:29,320
thing.

556
00:21:30,579 --> 00:21:32,200
People would still be evacuated,

557
00:21:34,705 --> 00:21:37,525
partly for reasons of clear risk,

558
00:21:38,065 --> 00:21:41,265
but also partly for public perception. It's very

559
00:21:41,265 --> 00:21:41,765
difficult

560
00:21:42,305 --> 00:21:44,565
to ask people to stay in a contaminated

561
00:21:45,025 --> 00:21:48,830
environment. And despite the huge efforts Japan has

562
00:21:48,830 --> 00:21:49,890
done after Fukushima,

563
00:21:50,350 --> 00:21:52,830
it's been very difficult to persuade people to

564
00:21:52,830 --> 00:21:53,890
go back to their

565
00:21:54,190 --> 00:21:56,830
homes even when they've cleaned up villages, they've

566
00:21:56,830 --> 00:21:59,150
cleaned up houses, they've even cleaned up bits

567
00:21:59,150 --> 00:22:01,250
of forest near villages and agricultural

568
00:22:01,549 --> 00:22:02,924
land. It's been difficult

569
00:22:03,705 --> 00:22:05,945
to get people. So there's always with nuclear

570
00:22:05,945 --> 00:22:07,484
things, there's always that

571
00:22:08,025 --> 00:22:11,545
that element of perception, and it's something that's

572
00:22:11,545 --> 00:22:13,705
not always logical. You know, when I go

573
00:22:13,705 --> 00:22:16,690
to the hot spots in the exclusion zone

574
00:22:17,309 --> 00:22:19,809
and my Geiger counter goes off the scale,

575
00:22:20,509 --> 00:22:21,809
I know that it's okay

576
00:22:22,429 --> 00:22:24,190
because I've been studying for so long, and

577
00:22:24,190 --> 00:22:26,029
I'm a physicist and all that logic and

578
00:22:26,029 --> 00:22:27,710
everything. But there's something at the back of

579
00:22:27,710 --> 00:22:30,075
my mind that says I I'm not really

580
00:22:30,075 --> 00:22:31,214
too keen on this.

581
00:22:32,154 --> 00:22:34,315
So there's not always a logical element to

582
00:22:34,315 --> 00:22:36,815
it. And and so so no matter how

583
00:22:37,035 --> 00:22:38,875
much we know, and we do know a

584
00:22:38,875 --> 00:22:41,375
lot about radiation risk and and

585
00:22:41,759 --> 00:22:43,920
how it behaves in the environment and up

586
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,080
the food chain and all these things, but

587
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:46,900
even so,

588
00:22:47,279 --> 00:22:48,900
it's still an incredibly

589
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:50,180
expensive

590
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,839
and disruptive thing to deal with a nuclear

591
00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:54,339
accident.

592
00:22:55,275 --> 00:22:57,355
Good news is that, you know, Chernobyl was

593
00:22:57,355 --> 00:22:58,734
about as bad as

594
00:22:59,195 --> 00:23:01,195
it gets in terms of in terms of

595
00:23:01,195 --> 00:23:02,654
the the the disastrous

596
00:23:03,035 --> 00:23:05,934
things that the Soviet Union did in construction

597
00:23:06,075 --> 00:23:08,830
of those plants, the safe nonsafety

598
00:23:09,210 --> 00:23:09,710
culture,

599
00:23:10,170 --> 00:23:11,710
how the plant was operated,

600
00:23:12,410 --> 00:23:13,230
the hierarchical

601
00:23:13,690 --> 00:23:14,830
nature of their

602
00:23:15,210 --> 00:23:15,710
system.

603
00:23:16,970 --> 00:23:20,109
All those things contributed to that terrible accident,

604
00:23:20,170 --> 00:23:20,670
and

605
00:23:20,994 --> 00:23:23,494
I don't see those elements in

606
00:23:24,034 --> 00:23:25,575
properly run reactors.

607
00:23:25,875 --> 00:23:29,095
Okay. Okay. Did you watch the Chernobyl series?

608
00:23:29,474 --> 00:23:31,474
I did. I did. Yes. And I thought

609
00:23:31,474 --> 00:23:34,214
it was I mean, I I show students

610
00:23:34,355 --> 00:23:36,509
the trailer from it, and and I always

611
00:23:36,509 --> 00:23:38,590
tell them after it that that I've counted

612
00:23:38,590 --> 00:23:40,529
five or six things that are wrong

613
00:23:42,110 --> 00:23:43,950
in the trailer. But, I mean, it was

614
00:23:43,950 --> 00:23:46,210
amazing, and it was almost too good,

615
00:23:46,910 --> 00:23:49,009
because you feel like it's a documentary

616
00:23:50,134 --> 00:23:51,654
when we've got to remember that it's a

617
00:23:51,654 --> 00:23:53,414
drama. And in fact, I did a I

618
00:23:53,414 --> 00:23:55,195
did a article for The Conversation

619
00:23:55,575 --> 00:23:57,654
on 10 things that are wrong with it,

620
00:23:57,654 --> 00:23:59,494
and there certainly are things that are wrong.

621
00:23:59,494 --> 00:24:02,375
But it certainly to give you a flavor

622
00:24:02,375 --> 00:24:02,789
of

623
00:24:03,350 --> 00:24:05,350
what I imagine it must have been like

624
00:24:05,350 --> 00:24:06,570
on that night of

625
00:24:07,590 --> 00:24:10,009
twenty six April nineteen eighty six,

626
00:24:11,350 --> 00:24:13,670
it really is quite amazing. I mean, it

627
00:24:13,670 --> 00:24:16,250
is an an amazing piece of drama.

628
00:24:16,815 --> 00:24:19,294
And and even sort of, you know, they

629
00:24:19,294 --> 00:24:21,855
go into the reactor physics and how the

630
00:24:21,855 --> 00:24:22,835
accident happened.

631
00:24:23,214 --> 00:24:26,434
So it's it's fantastic piece of science drama,

632
00:24:27,375 --> 00:24:29,694
but we've got to remember that they they

633
00:24:29,694 --> 00:24:30,194
were

634
00:24:30,734 --> 00:24:31,474
they they

635
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:34,440
it's a drama. It's not a documentary. And

636
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:34,940
and

637
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:36,059
and sort of

638
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,640
making the viewer feel like there was a

639
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,960
chance that Chernobyl could have gone up as

640
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,820
a hydrogen bomb

641
00:24:44,494 --> 00:24:47,055
somehow if the reactor core touched the water

642
00:24:47,055 --> 00:24:47,875
in the basement,

643
00:24:49,134 --> 00:24:52,595
isn't isn't really credible. You know, nuclear reactors

644
00:24:52,654 --> 00:24:55,375
don't explode like nuclear bombs because they don't

645
00:24:55,375 --> 00:24:56,035
have the

646
00:24:56,509 --> 00:24:57,809
right type of fissile

647
00:24:58,589 --> 00:25:00,929
uranium or the right amount of it.

648
00:25:02,190 --> 00:25:03,950
So, you know, I don't I haven't spoken

649
00:25:03,950 --> 00:25:04,589
to any,

650
00:25:05,549 --> 00:25:08,029
nuclear physicists who've who've told me that they

651
00:25:08,029 --> 00:25:08,529
could.

652
00:25:10,445 --> 00:25:12,545
But so so there what it was exaggerated,

653
00:25:12,845 --> 00:25:14,765
and the health some of the health effects

654
00:25:14,765 --> 00:25:16,305
and health risks were exaggerated.

655
00:25:16,684 --> 00:25:18,924
But but certainly, the the the night of

656
00:25:18,924 --> 00:25:21,884
the accident and the what happened to those

657
00:25:21,884 --> 00:25:22,384
very

658
00:25:22,919 --> 00:25:24,759
brave people who were in the plant at

659
00:25:24,759 --> 00:25:27,339
the time, the helicopter pilots, the firemen.

660
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,200
So those people who got radiation sickness. So

661
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,679
about a hundred and thirty four people got

662
00:25:32,679 --> 00:25:35,639
radiation sickness from Chernobyl, and and and it

663
00:25:35,639 --> 00:25:38,914
was very dramatically and and brilliantly portrayed.

664
00:25:40,815 --> 00:25:43,134
So, and what about the kind of political

665
00:25:43,134 --> 00:25:44,734
side of it? Is it is that accurate?

666
00:25:44,734 --> 00:25:46,494
What the sort of why it happened and

667
00:25:46,494 --> 00:25:49,375
and that fear of of everything going I

668
00:25:49,375 --> 00:25:50,994
I think it I think it is.

669
00:25:52,950 --> 00:25:55,029
And, you know, we can only speculate, and

670
00:25:55,029 --> 00:25:56,009
there's still speculation

671
00:25:56,390 --> 00:25:58,630
about the events that actually happened in the

672
00:25:58,630 --> 00:25:59,609
control room

673
00:26:00,630 --> 00:26:02,549
and the night of the accident. But it

674
00:26:02,549 --> 00:26:05,269
feels very believable to me, and and it

675
00:26:05,269 --> 00:26:07,924
was part of a a culture where

676
00:26:08,384 --> 00:26:10,884
you weren't allowed to question your superiors.

677
00:26:11,904 --> 00:26:13,924
And that is the worst thing for safety.

678
00:26:14,704 --> 00:26:16,544
The story I've heard and there are many

679
00:26:16,544 --> 00:26:18,944
stories about the accident. And but the story

680
00:26:18,944 --> 00:26:20,804
I've heard is that the guy who was

681
00:26:21,390 --> 00:26:22,450
operating the,

682
00:26:23,230 --> 00:26:25,730
control rods, so the the the

683
00:26:27,549 --> 00:26:30,029
the Chernobyl plant was doing an experiment on

684
00:26:30,029 --> 00:26:31,809
the night of the accident, and

685
00:26:32,830 --> 00:26:34,830
they'd got the reactor into a state that

686
00:26:34,830 --> 00:26:36,210
it shouldn't have been in,

687
00:26:37,414 --> 00:26:40,295
before they started this experiment. And and the

688
00:26:40,295 --> 00:26:42,454
guy who was operating the control rod said

689
00:26:42,454 --> 00:26:44,634
we need to shut shut it down now.

690
00:26:46,134 --> 00:26:48,154
But the guy who was running the control

691
00:26:48,214 --> 00:26:49,434
room, who wasn't

692
00:26:50,819 --> 00:26:53,559
as expert as the actual operators were,

693
00:26:53,940 --> 00:26:56,359
he said, just get on with it, basically,

694
00:26:56,419 --> 00:26:58,039
or you're gonna lose your job.

695
00:26:59,619 --> 00:27:01,319
That's the story that I heard.

696
00:27:02,755 --> 00:27:05,634
And and it's believable in the Soviet system

697
00:27:05,634 --> 00:27:07,315
at that time, and it and it sort

698
00:27:07,315 --> 00:27:09,815
of shows you the vulnerability of those sort

699
00:27:09,875 --> 00:27:11,015
of state controlled

700
00:27:11,875 --> 00:27:14,855
systems where people aren't allowed to question hierarchy.

701
00:27:14,914 --> 00:27:17,109
And then and then, of course, there are

702
00:27:17,109 --> 00:27:20,570
multitude other reasons for the accident, improper training,

703
00:27:21,269 --> 00:27:23,609
reactor design, all all those things,

704
00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:26,869
safety systems which have been switched off to

705
00:27:26,869 --> 00:27:29,130
conduct this experiment and so on.

706
00:27:29,829 --> 00:27:32,845
But that's how these very fortunately, very, very

707
00:27:32,845 --> 00:27:33,345
rare

708
00:27:33,644 --> 00:27:35,664
accidents happen is that kind of

709
00:27:36,125 --> 00:27:38,305
all these different elements coming together.

710
00:27:38,765 --> 00:27:39,265
Okay.

711
00:27:39,565 --> 00:27:41,644
But you haven't been to Unit 4. Is

712
00:27:41,644 --> 00:27:43,164
that because you're not allowed or you don't

713
00:27:43,164 --> 00:27:45,349
want to? I I missed out

714
00:27:46,210 --> 00:27:48,369
because at some point, they were allowing people

715
00:27:48,369 --> 00:27:48,869
in.

716
00:27:49,410 --> 00:27:51,650
And then I I just missed it, and

717
00:27:51,650 --> 00:27:54,049
then COVID came along. So, yeah, I I

718
00:27:54,049 --> 00:27:55,570
would I would go in.

719
00:27:56,369 --> 00:27:58,369
There is, you know, Unit 4, the control

720
00:27:58,369 --> 00:27:59,109
room isn't,

721
00:28:00,664 --> 00:28:02,505
the doses you get from being in the

722
00:28:02,505 --> 00:28:04,924
control room of Unit 4 aren't that high.

723
00:28:06,825 --> 00:28:09,785
But if you, you know, to go near

724
00:28:09,785 --> 00:28:12,070
the what they call the elephant's fault, which

725
00:28:12,070 --> 00:28:14,630
is the melted reactor core. So the reactor

726
00:28:14,630 --> 00:28:15,849
core melted and,

727
00:28:17,269 --> 00:28:19,769
fell down into the basement of the building.

728
00:28:20,470 --> 00:28:21,769
To go near that,

729
00:28:22,150 --> 00:28:23,830
you don't go for more than a few

730
00:28:23,830 --> 00:28:25,450
seconds because it's still very,

731
00:28:26,184 --> 00:28:27,725
very, very, very radioactive.

732
00:28:28,904 --> 00:28:30,365
It takes a very big

733
00:28:30,825 --> 00:28:31,805
dose of radiation

734
00:28:32,664 --> 00:28:33,565
to give you

735
00:28:34,265 --> 00:28:35,965
acute radiation sickness.

736
00:28:37,305 --> 00:28:38,984
And the people that got it were the

737
00:28:38,984 --> 00:28:40,285
people who were on

738
00:28:40,639 --> 00:28:41,139
site

739
00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:44,480
during the accident. The and the subsequent so

740
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:45,139
the fire

741
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:46,740
burned for ten days

742
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,079
after the accident. And so the people that

743
00:28:50,079 --> 00:28:51,460
got radiation sickness

744
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:52,500
were

745
00:28:54,865 --> 00:28:56,724
about there were about 134

746
00:28:56,784 --> 00:28:57,765
plant operators,

747
00:28:58,144 --> 00:28:58,644
firemen,

748
00:28:59,505 --> 00:29:02,464
helicopter pilots who were sent up to drop

749
00:29:02,464 --> 00:29:05,125
sand and boron on lead to try and

750
00:29:05,265 --> 00:29:07,904
quench the fire and and put dampen the

751
00:29:07,904 --> 00:29:08,884
nuclear reactions.

752
00:29:11,769 --> 00:29:12,829
Outside of that,

753
00:29:13,849 --> 00:29:16,890
there there have been reports of some people

754
00:29:16,890 --> 00:29:18,589
in the exclusion zone

755
00:29:19,049 --> 00:29:21,704
getting radiation sickness, but

756
00:29:22,505 --> 00:29:24,365
it's it's questionable.

757
00:29:24,825 --> 00:29:27,484
I don't think there's strong evidence of that.

758
00:29:28,505 --> 00:29:31,144
The doses that some people got were very,

759
00:29:31,144 --> 00:29:31,964
very significant,

760
00:29:32,744 --> 00:29:34,184
but perhaps below

761
00:29:34,664 --> 00:29:35,460
even the most

762
00:29:36,339 --> 00:29:39,460
high doses were below that threshold for getting

763
00:29:39,460 --> 00:29:40,679
radiation sickness.

764
00:29:42,099 --> 00:29:43,779
Even if we look at the town of

765
00:29:43,779 --> 00:29:44,279
Pripyat,

766
00:29:45,460 --> 00:29:47,640
so the dose in in Pripyat

767
00:29:48,179 --> 00:29:48,839
on average,

768
00:29:49,365 --> 00:29:51,305
so it's a town next to the plant,

769
00:29:51,444 --> 00:29:52,984
was about thirty millisieverts

770
00:29:54,404 --> 00:29:55,704
because people were evacuated

771
00:29:56,164 --> 00:29:59,384
about thirty six hours after the accident. And

772
00:29:59,684 --> 00:30:01,704
and that's equivalent to three,

773
00:30:02,909 --> 00:30:04,609
whole body CT scans.

774
00:30:06,509 --> 00:30:09,649
And so it's not a huge dose. So

775
00:30:09,789 --> 00:30:10,690
for for

776
00:30:11,230 --> 00:30:13,230
and I'm not I'm not because we don't

777
00:30:13,230 --> 00:30:16,335
know, but I suspect there weren't cases of

778
00:30:16,654 --> 00:30:18,115
radiation sickness outside

779
00:30:19,054 --> 00:30:20,034
the site itself.

780
00:30:22,015 --> 00:30:22,755
But certainly,

781
00:30:23,134 --> 00:30:26,255
the huge, huge majority of doses were in

782
00:30:26,255 --> 00:30:28,755
that region where you've got an elevated

783
00:30:29,214 --> 00:30:30,829
cancer risk and

784
00:30:31,289 --> 00:30:34,029
perhaps not not as an insignificant one,

785
00:30:34,970 --> 00:30:35,470
but

786
00:30:36,009 --> 00:30:38,190
not immediate radiation sickness.

787
00:30:39,450 --> 00:30:42,569
If we look at the so about 600,000

788
00:30:42,569 --> 00:30:44,029
people, mainly soldiers,

789
00:30:45,394 --> 00:30:47,634
were sent in. Some scientists as well. I've

790
00:30:47,634 --> 00:30:50,375
got friends who were who were sent in

791
00:30:50,434 --> 00:30:53,575
to help clean up after the accident, and

792
00:30:53,875 --> 00:30:55,794
they got an average dose of a hundred

793
00:30:55,794 --> 00:30:56,294
millisieverts.

794
00:30:57,500 --> 00:30:59,920
And that gives if we believe the statistics,

795
00:30:59,980 --> 00:31:02,720
and I I do generally believe the statistics,

796
00:31:02,779 --> 00:31:03,840
they're not perfect.

797
00:31:04,460 --> 00:31:06,860
If we believe the statistics, that's about a

798
00:31:06,860 --> 00:31:09,500
one in a hundred extra chance of getting

799
00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:11,025
cancer in later life.

800
00:31:12,144 --> 00:31:13,365
And that's not insignificant.

801
00:31:14,065 --> 00:31:15,924
But if we look at the air pollution

802
00:31:16,065 --> 00:31:16,565
statistics,

803
00:31:17,184 --> 00:31:19,265
if we live in somebody living in Central

804
00:31:19,265 --> 00:31:19,765
London

805
00:31:20,464 --> 00:31:22,625
has about a one in a hundred chance

806
00:31:22,625 --> 00:31:24,724
of early death from air pollution.

807
00:31:25,345 --> 00:31:26,244
And, of course,

808
00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:29,529
annually, there are millions of early deaths worldwide

809
00:31:29,750 --> 00:31:30,730
from air pollution.

810
00:31:31,269 --> 00:31:34,150
So to understand risk, we have to look

811
00:31:34,150 --> 00:31:34,730
at the

812
00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:38,070
context and what other risks there are around

813
00:31:38,070 --> 00:31:40,894
us. And certainly for people in those contaminated

814
00:31:41,275 --> 00:31:41,775
areas,

815
00:31:43,275 --> 00:31:43,775
that

816
00:31:45,355 --> 00:31:47,994
especially outside the exclusion zone and even people

817
00:31:47,994 --> 00:31:50,494
who are evacuated from the exclusion zone,

818
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,039
the radiation risk that they got is not

819
00:31:53,039 --> 00:31:54,980
the biggest problem in their lives.

820
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,160
And certainly in that's true in a place

821
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,380
like Ukraine where there's no good health services,

822
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,320
or the health service isn't as good as

823
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,065
it should be. There's high unemployment.

824
00:32:06,605 --> 00:32:09,424
All these risk factors are there's high

825
00:32:09,804 --> 00:32:11,585
smoking. There's high alcoholism.

826
00:32:12,845 --> 00:32:14,845
All those risk facts are much, much more

827
00:32:14,845 --> 00:32:16,865
important than than the radiation.

828
00:32:18,829 --> 00:32:20,430
Yeah. I'm just going back to the environment.

829
00:32:20,430 --> 00:32:22,029
Right? So you wanted to sort of you

830
00:32:22,029 --> 00:32:24,049
wanted to make a difference. Right?

831
00:32:25,470 --> 00:32:28,029
Are you studying this because you want to

832
00:32:28,029 --> 00:32:28,529
know

833
00:32:28,990 --> 00:32:31,974
that nuclear energy is a good option. Well,

834
00:32:31,974 --> 00:32:33,815
I I started out when I was a

835
00:32:33,815 --> 00:32:35,275
student, I was anti nuclear.

836
00:32:36,294 --> 00:32:36,694
And,

837
00:32:37,335 --> 00:32:39,015
you know, it was quite fashionable at the

838
00:32:39,015 --> 00:32:40,615
time, I suppose, and I was a bit

839
00:32:40,615 --> 00:32:41,115
greeny.

840
00:32:42,375 --> 00:32:42,775
And,

841
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,720
but the more I've learned, the more I've

842
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,200
realized that we have to be sensible about

843
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,119
what risks we take. It's not a question

844
00:32:51,119 --> 00:32:54,160
of not taking risks because every decision we

845
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,660
make, whether it's to build warm more windmills,

846
00:32:57,934 --> 00:33:00,194
more solar farms, more gas,

847
00:33:01,214 --> 00:33:04,255
power stations, whatever. Everything we do involves a

848
00:33:04,255 --> 00:33:04,755
risk.

849
00:33:05,535 --> 00:33:07,694
And when I when I look at the

850
00:33:07,934 --> 00:33:08,994
you know, my understanding

851
00:33:09,295 --> 00:33:12,095
of radiation risk and my understanding of the

852
00:33:12,095 --> 00:33:14,119
risk to our electricity system

853
00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:17,080
and climate change, I don't see

854
00:33:17,700 --> 00:33:18,200
radiation

855
00:33:18,660 --> 00:33:19,559
and nuclear

856
00:33:20,180 --> 00:33:23,140
sites, well run nuclear sites, I don't see

857
00:33:23,140 --> 00:33:24,119
them as a

858
00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:26,279
significant risk in comparison

859
00:33:26,580 --> 00:33:28,865
with risk from climate change.

860
00:33:29,164 --> 00:33:30,225
You know, if we

861
00:33:30,605 --> 00:33:31,105
regulated

862
00:33:31,805 --> 00:33:33,265
our fossil fuels

863
00:33:34,605 --> 00:33:37,744
in to the same standards as we regulate

864
00:33:38,045 --> 00:33:39,424
nuclear power stations,

865
00:33:39,725 --> 00:33:41,984
we would shut down every power station

866
00:33:43,250 --> 00:33:43,750
tomorrow.

867
00:33:44,130 --> 00:33:45,589
We would stop all

868
00:33:45,890 --> 00:33:46,390
traffic

869
00:33:47,250 --> 00:33:47,750
tomorrow

870
00:33:49,250 --> 00:33:52,210
because the risk from carbon dioxide is way,

871
00:33:52,210 --> 00:33:54,470
way higher than the risk from nuclear,

872
00:33:55,534 --> 00:33:57,615
from radiation. You know, you can more or

873
00:33:57,615 --> 00:34:00,575
less not measure the radiation that's emitted from

874
00:34:00,575 --> 00:34:01,394
a well run

875
00:34:01,694 --> 00:34:03,075
nuclear power station

876
00:34:03,615 --> 00:34:06,174
or indeed a waste store if it's well

877
00:34:06,174 --> 00:34:06,674
designed.

878
00:34:08,094 --> 00:34:10,050
But every day, we're chucking out

879
00:34:11,010 --> 00:34:13,349
tens of millions of tons of CO two.

880
00:34:13,890 --> 00:34:16,530
The the German experience has been very interesting

881
00:34:16,530 --> 00:34:18,469
because after the Fukushima accident,

882
00:34:19,410 --> 00:34:20,789
the German politicians

883
00:34:21,170 --> 00:34:23,010
finally sort of threw in the towel and

884
00:34:23,010 --> 00:34:25,349
said, we're not gonna support nuclear anymore,

885
00:34:26,184 --> 00:34:27,164
and we're going

886
00:34:27,944 --> 00:34:28,025
to,

887
00:34:29,065 --> 00:34:31,164
shut down our remaining nuclear

888
00:34:31,625 --> 00:34:32,764
power plants early.

889
00:34:33,224 --> 00:34:34,444
And that has been,

890
00:34:35,625 --> 00:34:37,545
and what they didn't do, they didn't replace

891
00:34:37,545 --> 00:34:40,440
it with with solar and wind. You know,

892
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,599
they did increase their solar and wind, but

893
00:34:42,599 --> 00:34:43,099
what

894
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,559
the effect of shutting down the nuclear was

895
00:34:45,559 --> 00:34:46,780
that they kept burning

896
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,640
brown coal, which is the worst, the most

897
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:50,140
polluting

898
00:34:51,844 --> 00:34:53,704
form of electricity generation.

899
00:34:54,724 --> 00:34:56,025
And that's been attributed

900
00:34:56,324 --> 00:34:56,724
to,

901
00:34:57,125 --> 00:34:58,324
36,000,000

902
00:34:58,324 --> 00:35:00,804
extra tons a year of c o two

903
00:35:00,804 --> 00:35:01,864
going in the atmosphere

904
00:35:02,484 --> 00:35:04,724
as whether well as thousands of deaths from

905
00:35:04,724 --> 00:35:05,385
air pollution.

906
00:35:06,619 --> 00:35:08,160
And so if the risk balance,

907
00:35:11,099 --> 00:35:13,660
the they could say, well, we've avoided all

908
00:35:13,660 --> 00:35:14,559
risk of nuclear

909
00:35:14,860 --> 00:35:15,760
power accidents

910
00:35:16,059 --> 00:35:18,539
because we've shut down our power stations. But

911
00:35:18,539 --> 00:35:19,599
they've Mhmm.

912
00:35:20,775 --> 00:35:23,014
Avoiding that tiny what I think is a

913
00:35:23,014 --> 00:35:23,994
tiny risk

914
00:35:24,934 --> 00:35:26,394
has led to the definite

915
00:35:27,574 --> 00:35:30,074
emission of lots and lots of carbon dioxide

916
00:35:30,934 --> 00:35:31,835
and the definite

917
00:35:32,639 --> 00:35:33,859
early death from

918
00:35:34,319 --> 00:35:36,239
air pollution or as definite as certain as

919
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,480
we can be in terms of risk of

920
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:39,139
air pollution.

921
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,719
And these are the choices we have. So

922
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:43,859
why is it then

923
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:44,739
that

924
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:46,659
we don't

925
00:35:47,025 --> 00:35:49,744
treat brown coal with the same kind of

926
00:35:49,744 --> 00:35:51,525
regulations that we do then clear?

927
00:35:54,304 --> 00:35:54,804
Because

928
00:35:55,264 --> 00:35:58,484
we can't. Because politically, we can't. I think

929
00:35:59,264 --> 00:36:01,204
I you know, energy is

930
00:36:01,789 --> 00:36:02,289
fundamental

931
00:36:02,829 --> 00:36:03,969
to our society.

932
00:36:05,309 --> 00:36:07,469
And it's you know, we see the debate

933
00:36:07,469 --> 00:36:09,969
in recent years about gas and electricity

934
00:36:10,269 --> 00:36:10,769
prices

935
00:36:11,150 --> 00:36:11,650
politically.

936
00:36:12,030 --> 00:36:14,365
I think it would be very different. I

937
00:36:14,365 --> 00:36:16,704
mean, certainly, Britain shut down its coal

938
00:36:17,565 --> 00:36:18,945
power stations totally

939
00:36:19,244 --> 00:36:19,744
brilliant.

940
00:36:20,765 --> 00:36:22,765
And and in that way, cut down its

941
00:36:22,765 --> 00:36:25,744
carbon dependency of of its electricity generation.

942
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:28,300
But

943
00:36:28,679 --> 00:36:29,340
to actually

944
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:30,780
do the things

945
00:36:32,039 --> 00:36:34,360
we need to do to reduce c o

946
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:35,579
two emissions enough,

947
00:36:36,039 --> 00:36:38,679
we and I and I include myself in

948
00:36:38,679 --> 00:36:40,684
this. Really, we don't

949
00:36:41,945 --> 00:36:44,184
want to do the things that we would

950
00:36:44,184 --> 00:36:45,085
need to do

951
00:36:46,105 --> 00:36:47,164
to shut down

952
00:36:47,465 --> 00:36:49,005
carbon dioxide emissions.

953
00:36:49,545 --> 00:36:52,204
We don't want to stop having foreign holidays.

954
00:36:52,425 --> 00:36:53,085
We don't

955
00:36:53,820 --> 00:36:56,619
want to pay quite probably quite a lot

956
00:36:56,619 --> 00:36:57,760
more for our electricity.

957
00:36:59,980 --> 00:37:02,780
We're so dependent on fossil fuels that it's

958
00:37:02,780 --> 00:37:05,200
a real struggle, and we see that politically

959
00:37:05,340 --> 00:37:07,360
all over the world. It's a real struggle

960
00:37:07,820 --> 00:37:08,320
to

961
00:37:09,734 --> 00:37:10,234
to

962
00:37:11,014 --> 00:37:11,914
to shut down

963
00:37:12,614 --> 00:37:15,414
carbon dioxide emissions because we're so dependent on

964
00:37:15,414 --> 00:37:18,534
them. And we've been pretty successful in The

965
00:37:18,534 --> 00:37:20,394
UK, so we've cut our electricity

966
00:37:21,289 --> 00:37:23,849
carbon dependence by about a half in in

967
00:37:23,849 --> 00:37:24,750
thirty years,

968
00:37:26,010 --> 00:37:26,989
which is fantastic.

969
00:37:27,369 --> 00:37:27,869
But

970
00:37:28,329 --> 00:37:31,849
that's just electricity, and electricity is only something

971
00:37:31,849 --> 00:37:32,349
like

972
00:37:33,130 --> 00:37:35,925
20 to 30% of our total energy use.

973
00:37:36,005 --> 00:37:37,445
You know, all the rest, the gas that

974
00:37:37,445 --> 00:37:38,985
heats our homes, the

975
00:37:39,285 --> 00:37:41,525
the petrol and diesel that drives our cars

976
00:37:41,525 --> 00:37:42,265
and lorries,

977
00:37:43,765 --> 00:37:46,744
that's about three times our electricity generation.

978
00:37:47,525 --> 00:37:49,625
And so it's it's it's a huge

979
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:51,800
it's a huge challenge, and it's one that

980
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,980
we certainly won't make by 2050

981
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:55,420
is to decarbonize

982
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:56,539
our whole

983
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,320
our whole economy because we're so dependent on

984
00:37:59,320 --> 00:37:59,820
energy.

985
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,280
But we we could get that energy through

986
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:03,420
nuclear and renewables.

987
00:38:06,755 --> 00:38:09,715
With with a massive expansion and a massive

988
00:38:09,715 --> 00:38:11,095
investment, we could.

989
00:38:11,875 --> 00:38:13,954
And that's, you know, I suppose that's that's

990
00:38:13,954 --> 00:38:15,575
in a way what I've been advocating

991
00:38:15,954 --> 00:38:17,015
for a long time.

992
00:38:18,195 --> 00:38:20,215
But it would be a massive investment.

993
00:38:22,109 --> 00:38:22,609
And

994
00:38:22,909 --> 00:38:25,089
it not just in renewables, but in battery

995
00:38:25,150 --> 00:38:25,650
storage,

996
00:38:28,109 --> 00:38:30,510
hydro storage, and so on. Because the thing

997
00:38:30,510 --> 00:38:33,389
about electricity is you can't store it or

998
00:38:33,389 --> 00:38:35,755
or, you know, you have to store it.

999
00:38:35,755 --> 00:38:38,335
And storage is very difficult for electricity

1000
00:38:38,795 --> 00:38:39,934
and very expensive.

1001
00:38:41,195 --> 00:38:43,195
So it would and and I don't think

1002
00:38:43,195 --> 00:38:45,035
there's any doubt that it would put our

1003
00:38:45,035 --> 00:38:46,800
electricity bills up quite a lot.

1004
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,699
I have friends, very lovely people,

1005
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,019
delightful human beings who are fervently

1006
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,800
against nuclear energy. Just, you know, they say

1007
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:55,119
it's

1008
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,420
whatever you say, it's linked to nuclear

1009
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,660
weapons. It's the same thing.

1010
00:39:01,025 --> 00:39:03,985
It's the people involved involved in those things.

1011
00:39:03,985 --> 00:39:06,465
If there was a terrorist attack on one

1012
00:39:06,465 --> 00:39:07,045
of these,

1013
00:39:07,585 --> 00:39:09,765
nuclear power stations, it would be terrible.

1014
00:39:11,105 --> 00:39:12,545
What do you say to those people? I

1015
00:39:12,545 --> 00:39:14,305
have a sympathy for those people because I

1016
00:39:14,305 --> 00:39:16,289
I was one of them for a for

1017
00:39:16,289 --> 00:39:18,630
a time. And and certainly,

1018
00:39:19,010 --> 00:39:20,230
you know, there are no

1019
00:39:20,690 --> 00:39:21,590
there are no

1020
00:39:22,530 --> 00:39:23,410
100%

1021
00:39:23,410 --> 00:39:24,309
clear answers

1022
00:39:25,090 --> 00:39:27,250
in this. I'm I'm not saying, and I

1023
00:39:27,250 --> 00:39:29,590
don't think anybody else is. I'm not saying,

1024
00:39:29,890 --> 00:39:33,014
like the Soviets did, that nuclear zero risk

1025
00:39:33,014 --> 00:39:35,574
of nuclear accidents. I'm not saying there's zero

1026
00:39:35,574 --> 00:39:36,954
risk of terrorism.

1027
00:39:37,494 --> 00:39:40,074
I'm not saying there's zero risk of nuclear

1028
00:39:40,135 --> 00:39:42,474
plants being targeted in in war.

1029
00:39:44,579 --> 00:39:47,239
But what we have to set the nuclear

1030
00:39:47,539 --> 00:39:49,000
risk against is

1031
00:39:49,380 --> 00:39:50,599
the 100%

1032
00:39:50,900 --> 00:39:52,840
or pretty much 100%

1033
00:39:52,900 --> 00:39:54,519
risk of climate change,

1034
00:39:55,860 --> 00:39:58,440
the very high risk from air pollution

1035
00:39:58,994 --> 00:40:01,094
of fossil fuels. And I

1036
00:40:02,114 --> 00:40:03,894
personally don't think it's,

1037
00:40:04,835 --> 00:40:05,335
feasible

1038
00:40:06,194 --> 00:40:08,355
to depend a 100%

1039
00:40:08,355 --> 00:40:09,574
on wind and solar

1040
00:40:10,594 --> 00:40:12,534
and hydro. I don't think it's achievable.

1041
00:40:13,954 --> 00:40:14,454
And

1042
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:16,539
and nuclear provides

1043
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:18,300
twenty four seven

1044
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,659
reliable energy and has done in The UK

1045
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:22,219
since

1046
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:24,440
1958,

1047
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:25,179
I think.

1048
00:40:26,599 --> 00:40:28,360
And in many parts of Europe, you know,

1049
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:29,019
in France,

1050
00:40:30,265 --> 00:40:32,585
it's it's been a major proportion of their

1051
00:40:32,585 --> 00:40:35,485
electricity generation for decades. And so

1052
00:40:35,945 --> 00:40:37,945
I think we have to balance our risk.

1053
00:40:37,945 --> 00:40:40,025
We don't we can't not take a risk.

1054
00:40:40,025 --> 00:40:42,840
We can't take make decisions which don't involve

1055
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,840
some form of risk. And I think the

1056
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,220
balance very strongly

1057
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:48,300
is that we need

1058
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,019
nuclear and we need renewables

1059
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:53,099
going forward.

1060
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:55,945
And we need to shut down the fossil

1061
00:40:55,945 --> 00:40:57,885
fuel plants as soon as we can.

1062
00:40:59,545 --> 00:41:01,385
At the start of this podcast, I did

1063
00:41:01,385 --> 00:41:04,505
promise you that I would possibly be tasting

1064
00:41:04,505 --> 00:41:07,224
the apple brandy made from crops within the

1065
00:41:07,224 --> 00:41:08,925
exclusion zone in Chernobyl.

1066
00:41:10,059 --> 00:41:11,599
So we did some work

1067
00:41:12,059 --> 00:41:15,019
in, Ukraine in a town called Naradichi, which

1068
00:41:15,019 --> 00:41:16,380
is one of the in one of the

1069
00:41:16,380 --> 00:41:19,500
semi abandoned areas. So there's still people. There's

1070
00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:20,880
still a school. There's,

1071
00:41:21,739 --> 00:41:23,900
shops and so on in Naradichi, but there's

1072
00:41:23,900 --> 00:41:26,635
no official use of agricultural land. And that's

1073
00:41:26,635 --> 00:41:29,434
had real big impact on the population, not

1074
00:41:29,434 --> 00:41:31,755
just in how they perceive their lives. You

1075
00:41:31,755 --> 00:41:33,594
know, they they feel like they're living in

1076
00:41:33,594 --> 00:41:34,255
a radioactively

1077
00:41:34,635 --> 00:41:35,135
contaminated

1078
00:41:35,434 --> 00:41:35,934
environment,

1079
00:41:36,315 --> 00:41:39,050
but economically as well because much of the

1080
00:41:39,050 --> 00:41:40,909
agricultural land can't be used.

1081
00:41:41,369 --> 00:41:43,530
And so we did a project. Main the

1082
00:41:43,530 --> 00:41:46,730
serious bit well, it's both serious, but the

1083
00:41:46,730 --> 00:41:49,070
main point of the project was to demonstrate

1084
00:41:49,130 --> 00:41:51,130
that land could be used. So we developed

1085
00:41:51,130 --> 00:41:53,210
a protocol to show that land could be

1086
00:41:53,210 --> 00:41:56,005
used. But at the same time, we took

1087
00:41:56,005 --> 00:41:58,985
products from that so called contaminated area,

1088
00:42:00,244 --> 00:42:03,605
and then we fermented and distilled them to

1089
00:42:03,605 --> 00:42:04,105
make

1090
00:42:04,565 --> 00:42:05,625
a kind of snaps.

1091
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:08,579
And we found that the distillate,

1092
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,780
the final product was completely free of Chernobyl

1093
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:12,340
radioactivity.

1094
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,039
And so we set up the Chernobyl Spirit

1095
00:42:17,039 --> 00:42:18,579
Community Interest Company,

1096
00:42:20,445 --> 00:42:22,605
which is a social enterprise. And so we

1097
00:42:22,605 --> 00:42:25,005
work with a distillery in Ukraine, and they

1098
00:42:25,005 --> 00:42:27,744
go to these semi abandoned areas and

1099
00:42:28,045 --> 00:42:30,204
collect apples. So they just buy apples from

1100
00:42:30,204 --> 00:42:33,360
people's gardens, from abandoned orchards, and so on.

1101
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,980
And they ferment and distill them, and,

1102
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,619
they make an apple schnapps

1103
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:41,539
and an apple brandy,

1104
00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:45,039
which we can say is completely free of

1105
00:42:45,039 --> 00:42:46,019
Chernobyl radioactivity.

1106
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,934
It still got natural carbon 14 in like

1107
00:42:48,934 --> 00:42:52,054
every other food product. Every everything else with

1108
00:42:52,054 --> 00:42:54,535
carbon in it, including our bodies, but we

1109
00:42:54,535 --> 00:42:56,954
can say it's completely free of Chernobyl radioactivity.

1110
00:42:57,255 --> 00:42:58,554
And so we sell this

1111
00:42:58,855 --> 00:43:03,389
online on our website, www.atomicvodka.com.

1112
00:43:04,349 --> 00:43:04,849
And,

1113
00:43:05,630 --> 00:43:08,529
and so far, we've sold about 8,000

1114
00:43:08,589 --> 00:43:09,809
bottles, and we've

1115
00:43:10,269 --> 00:43:12,609
raised about £50,000

1116
00:43:12,670 --> 00:43:15,469
for which we've donated to Ukraine to support

1117
00:43:15,469 --> 00:43:15,969
those

1118
00:43:16,644 --> 00:43:19,605
communities that were affected by the Chernobyl accident

1119
00:43:19,605 --> 00:43:21,925
and now by the terrible war. Brilliant. So

1120
00:43:21,925 --> 00:43:23,305
the distillation process

1121
00:43:23,845 --> 00:43:25,385
gets rid of the radiation?

1122
00:43:27,204 --> 00:43:27,704
Yes.

1123
00:43:28,494 --> 00:43:31,519
Because the elements, the caesium, the strontium,

1124
00:43:31,900 --> 00:43:34,160
the plut tiny amounts of plutonium,

1125
00:43:34,940 --> 00:43:36,960
the the elements that are in the original

1126
00:43:37,739 --> 00:43:38,239
product,

1127
00:43:39,180 --> 00:43:41,280
they in in the in the apples,

1128
00:43:41,864 --> 00:43:42,025
they

1129
00:43:42,664 --> 00:43:44,605
they're they're not super dangerous

1130
00:43:44,905 --> 00:43:47,784
at those levels, but there there there is

1131
00:43:47,784 --> 00:43:49,724
significant radiation there.

1132
00:43:51,224 --> 00:43:54,425
But when we ferment and distill them, the

1133
00:43:54,425 --> 00:43:55,405
the radioactive

1134
00:43:55,704 --> 00:43:56,204
element

1135
00:43:56,510 --> 00:43:58,050
stay in the waste product.

1136
00:43:58,989 --> 00:44:01,969
So the distillation is a kind of purifying

1137
00:44:02,589 --> 00:44:05,949
has a purifying effect, and the and the

1138
00:44:05,949 --> 00:44:07,170
product, the distillate,

1139
00:44:08,030 --> 00:44:10,609
is we haven't been able to measure any

1140
00:44:10,815 --> 00:44:11,795
Chernobyl radioactivity

1141
00:44:12,255 --> 00:44:13,554
in that final product.

1142
00:44:14,494 --> 00:44:15,474
You know, Ukrainians

1143
00:44:15,775 --> 00:44:17,934
really know what they're doing when it comes

1144
00:44:17,934 --> 00:44:19,074
to making alcohol.

1145
00:44:19,614 --> 00:44:21,934
And the the distillery we work with really

1146
00:44:21,934 --> 00:44:24,530
take a lot of care over this. And,

1147
00:44:24,970 --> 00:44:27,210
and it is it is a really nice

1148
00:44:27,210 --> 00:44:30,250
product. Yeah. It's beautifully packaged as well. I

1149
00:44:30,250 --> 00:44:32,750
mean Thank you. Thank you. I feel

1150
00:44:33,289 --> 00:44:35,769
persuaded to taste it. So let's do that

1151
00:44:35,769 --> 00:44:38,250
one here. And let's let's have one together.

1152
00:44:38,250 --> 00:44:38,864
Why not?

1153
00:44:40,144 --> 00:44:42,085
I'm gonna pour what I call a tasting

1154
00:44:42,144 --> 00:44:44,005
shot, which is about 10 mils.

1155
00:44:45,105 --> 00:44:45,505
But you

1156
00:44:46,304 --> 00:44:47,925
alright. You're being more generous.

1157
00:44:48,385 --> 00:44:48,885
Yeah.

1158
00:44:50,704 --> 00:44:52,224
I'm only going out for a curry. I

1159
00:44:52,224 --> 00:44:52,885
don't mind.

1160
00:44:54,599 --> 00:44:55,900
Oh, smells wonderful.

1161
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,239
So this has been aged in Ukrainian oak

1162
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:00,940
barrels for two years.

1163
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:03,340
Okay. Amazing.

1164
00:45:04,039 --> 00:45:05,000
Amazing. That's,

1165
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:06,380
to you, sir.

1166
00:45:07,565 --> 00:45:10,284
It's pretty good. No. It's good. That is

1167
00:45:10,284 --> 00:45:12,364
very good. We originally wanted to make a

1168
00:45:12,364 --> 00:45:13,344
vodka, but

1169
00:45:13,964 --> 00:45:16,065
we were told that the vodka

1170
00:45:16,444 --> 00:45:18,704
industry in Ukraine is very complicated

1171
00:45:19,885 --> 00:45:21,660
to say the least. And,

1172
00:45:22,059 --> 00:45:24,639
we were advised not to get get involved

1173
00:45:25,019 --> 00:45:25,519
yet.

1174
00:45:26,699 --> 00:45:28,639
Vodka has a history throughout,

1175
00:45:29,980 --> 00:45:31,839
even before the Soviet times,

1176
00:45:32,619 --> 00:45:33,074
of

1177
00:45:33,474 --> 00:45:36,275
being part of the government structure. So the

1178
00:45:36,275 --> 00:45:36,775
czars

1179
00:45:37,074 --> 00:45:39,014
controlled their people with vodka

1180
00:45:39,875 --> 00:45:40,695
in part.

1181
00:45:41,554 --> 00:45:44,514
The Soviet Union in part controlled their people

1182
00:45:44,514 --> 00:45:46,844
with vodka. And so vodka has been a

1183
00:45:47,450 --> 00:45:49,309
in that part of the world has

1184
00:45:49,610 --> 00:45:52,590
been a very complicated thing, and certainly private

1185
00:45:53,769 --> 00:45:55,550
production of vodka wasn't allowed

1186
00:45:55,930 --> 00:45:58,750
and and isn't really allowed in Ukraine

1187
00:45:59,369 --> 00:46:00,269
at the moment.

1188
00:46:00,614 --> 00:46:02,775
Although, hopefully, you know, when the war ends

1189
00:46:02,775 --> 00:46:05,255
and they move more towards Europe or Western

1190
00:46:05,255 --> 00:46:05,755
Europe,

1191
00:46:06,295 --> 00:46:08,074
then that will change. So

1192
00:46:08,454 --> 00:46:10,775
we were advised not to get involved in

1193
00:46:10,775 --> 00:46:13,380
the vodka business, but we would like to

1194
00:46:13,380 --> 00:46:14,659
We would like to, but it's a matter

1195
00:46:14,659 --> 00:46:17,000
of finding the right people to work with.

1196
00:46:17,299 --> 00:46:19,619
We decided to go for this apple schnapps

1197
00:46:19,619 --> 00:46:21,319
and apple brandy. But, actually,

1198
00:46:21,859 --> 00:46:24,259
if you compare you know, vodka's basically ethanol

1199
00:46:24,259 --> 00:46:24,920
and water.

1200
00:46:26,105 --> 00:46:26,585
So you

1201
00:46:27,144 --> 00:46:29,385
I never feel you're getting very good value

1202
00:46:29,385 --> 00:46:31,724
for money if you buy an expensive vodka.

1203
00:46:32,424 --> 00:46:34,424
But this actually so this is distilled. So

1204
00:46:34,424 --> 00:46:36,664
vodka's distilled to 92%

1205
00:46:36,664 --> 00:46:39,005
and then cut down to 40%

1206
00:46:39,224 --> 00:46:39,960
for sale,

1207
00:46:40,679 --> 00:46:41,500
by dilution.

1208
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,780
This is distilled up to about 82%

1209
00:46:44,839 --> 00:46:45,339
alcohol

1210
00:46:45,639 --> 00:46:48,219
and then cut down to 42%,

1211
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:50,059
by dilution.

1212
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:51,159
And,

1213
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:53,719
and that means that it keeps more of

1214
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:54,460
the flavors.

1215
00:46:55,385 --> 00:46:57,625
So you actually can tell that it's kind

1216
00:46:57,625 --> 00:46:59,945
of from it's got more fruity flavors and

1217
00:46:59,945 --> 00:47:01,885
so on, where the vodka is basically

1218
00:47:02,505 --> 00:47:05,304
ethanol and water. Yeah. Okay. To to be

1219
00:47:05,304 --> 00:47:06,844
perfectly honest with you,

1220
00:47:07,464 --> 00:47:08,984
I thought you were sending me vodka. I

1221
00:47:08,984 --> 00:47:11,039
was very pleased when this arrived because I'm

1222
00:47:11,039 --> 00:47:12,800
not a big vodka fan. But I do

1223
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,160
like it. This is much better. Yeah. Yeah.

1224
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,480
No. It's brilliant. It's what what a lovely

1225
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:18,000
thing that is. Did you think people are

1226
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:18,739
buying it,

1227
00:47:20,079 --> 00:47:22,640
that there's there's two motivations there. Right? There's

1228
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,019
there's one, it's quite fun.

1229
00:47:25,014 --> 00:47:27,355
Yeah. It's got a bit of, you know,

1230
00:47:27,735 --> 00:47:30,855
zing about it. It's certainly unique. Yeah. And

1231
00:47:30,855 --> 00:47:32,954
the other side is is supporting Ukraine.

1232
00:47:33,494 --> 00:47:34,954
Well, we're not really

1233
00:47:35,335 --> 00:47:37,655
strong on marketing. We it doesn't marketing is

1234
00:47:37,655 --> 00:47:40,074
not what what interests us really.

1235
00:47:40,829 --> 00:47:42,989
We don't have a real great idea of

1236
00:47:42,989 --> 00:47:44,690
who our customers are. I suspect

1237
00:47:45,070 --> 00:47:46,829
quite a few of them are physicists like

1238
00:47:46,829 --> 00:47:48,369
me who are interested in

1239
00:47:48,670 --> 00:47:50,750
nuclear things, but there are also a lot

1240
00:47:50,750 --> 00:47:51,410
of people

1241
00:47:51,710 --> 00:47:54,110
who who just wanna support Ukraine at this

1242
00:47:54,110 --> 00:47:54,849
time. And

1243
00:47:55,255 --> 00:47:57,594
and many of us are are really,

1244
00:47:58,054 --> 00:48:00,775
you know, we're shocked and horrified with what's

1245
00:48:00,775 --> 00:48:02,934
happening in Ukraine and want to do our

1246
00:48:02,934 --> 00:48:03,675
little bit

1247
00:48:04,135 --> 00:48:05,195
to support them.

1248
00:48:05,655 --> 00:48:08,954
Indeed, one of our, directors, Kyrilo, who

1249
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,059
who distilled our first experimental bottle

1250
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:13,420
of atomic,

1251
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:16,519
he got he's a scientist, but he got

1252
00:48:16,519 --> 00:48:18,199
called up to the front line. You know,

1253
00:48:18,199 --> 00:48:20,059
he's got a family, but he's been

1254
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,440
away from them for three and a half

1255
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:23,324
years now.

1256
00:48:23,804 --> 00:48:25,804
And we're, you know, we're in awe of

1257
00:48:25,804 --> 00:48:26,284
these,

1258
00:48:26,684 --> 00:48:29,405
Ukrainians who are who are really fighting. Well,

1259
00:48:29,405 --> 00:48:31,964
I think they're fighting for for Europe and

1260
00:48:31,964 --> 00:48:33,505
and democracy. So

1261
00:48:33,964 --> 00:48:35,724
a lot of people want to support that,

1262
00:48:35,724 --> 00:48:38,380
and and and I I get that. And

1263
00:48:38,380 --> 00:48:41,099
we're doing our tiny little bit, but it

1264
00:48:41,099 --> 00:48:43,519
it makes you feel better in this

1265
00:48:43,820 --> 00:48:46,780
current climate to be doing something positive for

1266
00:48:46,780 --> 00:48:47,280
Ukraine.

1267
00:48:47,900 --> 00:48:50,300
Yeah. No. It's a lovely thing. I in

1268
00:48:50,300 --> 00:48:51,644
my research for this,

1269
00:48:54,445 --> 00:48:57,005
I found an article which people may well

1270
00:48:57,005 --> 00:48:57,744
have read

1271
00:48:58,125 --> 00:49:00,684
from the 05/08/2021

1272
00:49:00,684 --> 00:49:02,765
on the BBC by the wonderful Victoria Gill,

1273
00:49:02,765 --> 00:49:04,844
formerly of the MSC in science communication at

1274
00:49:04,844 --> 00:49:07,510
UAB Bristol, which is a great thing, saying

1275
00:49:07,510 --> 00:49:08,010
that,

1276
00:49:08,789 --> 00:49:09,110
the,

1277
00:49:09,590 --> 00:49:10,970
Chernobyl Spirit Company

1278
00:49:11,349 --> 00:49:13,190
said 1,500

1279
00:49:13,190 --> 00:49:15,530
bottles of atomic alcoholic drink were confiscated

1280
00:49:15,990 --> 00:49:18,150
and taken to the Kyiv prosecutor's office. Can

1281
00:49:18,150 --> 00:49:19,574
you tell me about that? Yes.

1282
00:49:20,614 --> 00:49:21,434
We've had

1283
00:49:22,135 --> 00:49:23,835
quite a few ups and downs

1284
00:49:24,534 --> 00:49:26,474
on this project, and

1285
00:49:27,335 --> 00:49:29,734
we don't re so what happened was it

1286
00:49:29,815 --> 00:49:31,974
it's taken a lot of effort to get

1287
00:49:31,974 --> 00:49:33,420
this off the ground. And

1288
00:49:33,980 --> 00:49:35,980
so we worked with, with our friends at

1289
00:49:35,980 --> 00:49:39,119
the Palynochka Distillery who specialize in fruit

1290
00:49:39,659 --> 00:49:40,880
alcohols. And they're

1291
00:49:41,179 --> 00:49:43,099
over in Uzhghorod, which is right in the

1292
00:49:43,099 --> 00:49:44,859
West Of Ukraine, which is why I've been

1293
00:49:44,859 --> 00:49:47,359
able to visit them since the war started.

1294
00:49:48,844 --> 00:49:49,984
And so they produced,

1295
00:49:50,284 --> 00:49:50,784
finally,

1296
00:49:51,164 --> 00:49:51,984
our first

1297
00:49:52,444 --> 00:49:53,744
thousand or so

1298
00:49:54,125 --> 00:49:55,405
bottles, 1,500,

1299
00:49:55,405 --> 00:49:56,625
I think it was, bottles,

1300
00:49:57,804 --> 00:50:00,500
of our atomic spirits. And they they had

1301
00:50:00,500 --> 00:50:02,500
them all loaded up. They were they would

1302
00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:04,440
arrange for them to come to The UK,

1303
00:50:05,219 --> 00:50:07,300
and they drove out of the factory gates

1304
00:50:07,300 --> 00:50:07,800
and

1305
00:50:08,260 --> 00:50:08,920
the Ukrainian

1306
00:50:09,859 --> 00:50:12,980
SBU, sometimes called the secret services, were there

1307
00:50:12,980 --> 00:50:14,039
waiting for them

1308
00:50:14,675 --> 00:50:18,054
and confiscated the law. And and we have

1309
00:50:18,914 --> 00:50:22,135
two theories of why they got con confiscated,

1310
00:50:22,434 --> 00:50:23,974
neither of which we really

1311
00:50:24,755 --> 00:50:26,914
know know whether either are true. One is

1312
00:50:26,914 --> 00:50:27,414
that

1313
00:50:27,849 --> 00:50:29,769
it's because there was something funny about them

1314
00:50:29,769 --> 00:50:32,650
coming from Chernobyl, and the Ukrainians weren't sure

1315
00:50:32,650 --> 00:50:33,710
about all that.

1316
00:50:34,010 --> 00:50:35,530
But the other one, which I think is

1317
00:50:35,530 --> 00:50:38,349
more probable, was that somebody was trying to,

1318
00:50:38,809 --> 00:50:40,030
steal our idea

1319
00:50:41,130 --> 00:50:41,630
and,

1320
00:50:42,454 --> 00:50:44,054
put a spanner in the works of what

1321
00:50:44,054 --> 00:50:46,215
we were trying to do for their own

1322
00:50:46,215 --> 00:50:46,715
reasons.

1323
00:50:47,015 --> 00:50:47,835
And so,

1324
00:50:48,775 --> 00:50:50,855
it was a very difficult time because my

1325
00:50:50,855 --> 00:50:53,175
Ukrainian colleagues were in, you know, in fear

1326
00:50:53,175 --> 00:50:56,119
of their freedom really because they they worried

1327
00:50:56,119 --> 00:50:58,059
that something was gonna happen to them.

1328
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:02,360
And so they got their bottles got taken

1329
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,300
to Kyiv, to the Kyiv Prosecutor's

1330
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:05,500
Warehouse.

1331
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:08,539
And, we got a lawyer.

1332
00:51:09,184 --> 00:51:11,125
So we got a lawyer in Kiev,

1333
00:51:11,824 --> 00:51:12,304
and,

1334
00:51:13,344 --> 00:51:14,005
and fortunately,

1335
00:51:14,385 --> 00:51:17,764
I'd I'd visited Chernobyl with Victoria Gill who

1336
00:51:18,065 --> 00:51:20,224
did a fantastic piece on our work at

1337
00:51:20,224 --> 00:51:23,269
Chernobyl. And so I I emailed her, and

1338
00:51:23,269 --> 00:51:25,030
she said, I'll do an article on it.

1339
00:51:25,030 --> 00:51:27,670
And she rang the prosecutor's office, and I

1340
00:51:27,670 --> 00:51:28,730
think that was

1341
00:51:29,190 --> 00:51:32,150
probably helped us get things sorted out in

1342
00:51:32,150 --> 00:51:33,449
Ukraine. I mean, Ukraine's

1343
00:51:34,295 --> 00:51:37,175
trying its very hardest to become a, you

1344
00:51:37,175 --> 00:51:37,675
know,

1345
00:51:37,974 --> 00:51:39,195
European democracy,

1346
00:51:39,494 --> 00:51:41,735
but there has been and still is a

1347
00:51:41,735 --> 00:51:43,035
lot of corruption there.

1348
00:51:43,335 --> 00:51:46,019
And they're fighting very hard against that, but

1349
00:51:47,539 --> 00:51:48,980
but they did the right thing in the

1350
00:51:48,980 --> 00:51:49,480
end,

1351
00:51:50,340 --> 00:51:52,280
perhaps with a nudge from the BBC.

1352
00:51:53,860 --> 00:51:56,119
Yeah. And the bottles got released,

1353
00:51:57,619 --> 00:52:00,019
and and and eventually ended up in The

1354
00:52:00,019 --> 00:52:02,154
UK after a lot of effort. So it

1355
00:52:02,154 --> 00:52:03,914
has been it was a difficult start to

1356
00:52:03,914 --> 00:52:04,414
the

1357
00:52:04,714 --> 00:52:05,534
to the project.

1358
00:52:06,154 --> 00:52:08,734
But since then, things have been going relatively

1359
00:52:08,954 --> 00:52:11,674
smoothly, and we're managing to so we've raised

1360
00:52:11,674 --> 00:52:12,795
£50,000,

1361
00:52:12,795 --> 00:52:16,170
which we've donated to the communities affected by

1362
00:52:16,170 --> 00:52:18,010
the accident and the and the war in

1363
00:52:18,010 --> 00:52:18,510
Ukraine.

1364
00:52:19,050 --> 00:52:20,809
One possibility is they just thought it was

1365
00:52:20,809 --> 00:52:22,409
really tasty and wanted some more of it,

1366
00:52:22,409 --> 00:52:24,329
which is the situation I'm in right now.

1367
00:52:24,329 --> 00:52:24,570
We

1368
00:52:25,210 --> 00:52:27,289
right. Thank you. We we counted the bottles

1369
00:52:27,289 --> 00:52:29,469
very carefully when they did arrive, and

1370
00:52:30,554 --> 00:52:32,554
They were they were mainly all there. I'd

1371
00:52:32,554 --> 00:52:34,394
like to thank Jim Smith not only for

1372
00:52:34,394 --> 00:52:36,554
sending me the apple brandy, which I highly

1373
00:52:36,554 --> 00:52:38,715
recommend, but also for joining me for this

1374
00:52:38,715 --> 00:52:41,114
episode of the Physics World Stories podcast. If

1375
00:52:41,114 --> 00:52:42,234
you'd like to get your hand on a

1376
00:52:42,234 --> 00:52:43,675
bottle, you don't have to join any kind

1377
00:52:43,675 --> 00:52:45,539
of police force. You can simply go to

1378
00:52:45,539 --> 00:52:47,300
to the physics world website where you'll find

1379
00:52:47,300 --> 00:52:50,900
a link to the atomic spirits company, and

1380
00:52:50,900 --> 00:52:53,460
it certainly is a talking point for the

1381
00:52:53,460 --> 00:52:55,300
end of any evening where you might be

1382
00:52:55,300 --> 00:52:57,780
thinking of reaching for a brandy. We'll be

1383
00:52:57,780 --> 00:52:59,460
back next month with something else from this

1384
00:52:59,460 --> 00:53:01,652
wonderful world of physics, and thank you very

1385
00:53:01,652 --> 00:53:02,632
much for listening.