1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,359 Hello, and welcome to the Physics World Stories 2 00:00:05,359 --> 00:00:08,240 podcast. I'm Andrew Glessner. In this episode, I'm 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:10,500 joined by theoretical physicist, cosmologist, 4 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:12,740 and author Paul Davies 5 00:00:13,044 --> 00:00:13,785 to discuss 6 00:00:14,085 --> 00:00:17,045 amongst other things his new book, quantum two 7 00:00:17,045 --> 00:00:20,405 point o, the past, present, and future of 8 00:00:20,405 --> 00:00:21,385 quantum physics. 9 00:00:22,964 --> 00:00:25,524 Paul is a regents professor at Arizona State 10 00:00:25,524 --> 00:00:28,710 University where he directs the Beyond Center for 11 00:00:28,710 --> 00:00:31,670 Fundamental Concepts in Science, a place as he 12 00:00:31,670 --> 00:00:34,310 puts it for cool stuff. I have to 13 00:00:34,310 --> 00:00:36,149 say I agree with him on that and 14 00:00:36,149 --> 00:00:38,390 you will when we talk about that very 15 00:00:38,390 --> 00:00:40,994 shortly. But it tackles everything from the nature 16 00:00:41,075 --> 00:00:42,134 of time and consciousness 17 00:00:42,515 --> 00:00:45,174 to the origins of life and the universe 18 00:00:45,234 --> 00:00:45,734 itself. 19 00:00:48,674 --> 00:00:51,155 We're gonna explore what he calls the next 20 00:00:51,155 --> 00:00:52,454 great quantum revolution, 21 00:00:52,835 --> 00:00:53,814 quantum computing, 22 00:00:54,270 --> 00:00:54,770 teleportation, 23 00:00:55,390 --> 00:00:55,890 cryptography, 24 00:00:56,350 --> 00:00:57,090 and sensing. 25 00:00:57,549 --> 00:01:00,189 Along the way, we'll discuss why Schrodinger's equation 26 00:01:00,189 --> 00:01:02,909 remains so central and how quantum ideas are 27 00:01:02,909 --> 00:01:06,109 reshaping not just technology, but art, and what 28 00:01:06,109 --> 00:01:09,894 might happen when quantum information science meets artificial 29 00:01:10,114 --> 00:01:10,614 intelligence. 30 00:01:12,435 --> 00:01:13,894 From teleporting particles 31 00:01:14,275 --> 00:01:16,994 to the ethical challenges of AI and even 32 00:01:16,994 --> 00:01:19,655 quantum jazz, it's a wide ranging conversation, 33 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,799 and I began by asking him about the 34 00:01:22,799 --> 00:01:26,180 Beyond Center for Fundamental Concepts in Science. 35 00:01:28,239 --> 00:01:29,859 I went to ASU 36 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:31,995 in 2006, 37 00:01:32,555 --> 00:01:33,755 with a mission that, 38 00:01:34,314 --> 00:01:37,355 had a budget behind it, provided by the 39 00:01:37,355 --> 00:01:39,615 university president who's a great visionary. 40 00:01:40,555 --> 00:01:43,194 And the idea was to set up a 41 00:01:43,194 --> 00:01:45,755 center which is, small in terms of numbers 42 00:01:45,755 --> 00:01:47,459 of people, but big in terms of its 43 00:01:47,620 --> 00:01:48,120 agenda, 44 00:01:48,739 --> 00:01:49,239 to, 45 00:01:49,780 --> 00:01:53,239 dwell on foundational questions in in science across 46 00:01:53,299 --> 00:01:54,119 all the sciences. 47 00:01:55,299 --> 00:01:57,239 My profession is really 48 00:01:57,619 --> 00:01:58,119 physics, 49 00:01:58,739 --> 00:01:59,959 astrophysics, cosmology. 50 00:02:01,364 --> 00:02:02,504 But I've also 51 00:02:02,965 --> 00:02:04,104 worked in astrobiology, 52 00:02:04,484 --> 00:02:05,704 it's now now called, 53 00:02:06,084 --> 00:02:08,164 which touches on the problem, the origin of 54 00:02:08,164 --> 00:02:10,745 life, where physics and chemistry turns into biology, 55 00:02:11,444 --> 00:02:12,824 and the nature of consciousness, 56 00:02:13,764 --> 00:02:15,685 the nature of time, the origin of the 57 00:02:15,685 --> 00:02:16,185 universe, 58 00:02:17,009 --> 00:02:18,769 the place of human beings in the great 59 00:02:18,769 --> 00:02:20,289 cosmic scheme of things, you know, all of 60 00:02:20,289 --> 00:02:22,449 these sort of profound questions. The way I 61 00:02:22,449 --> 00:02:23,989 like to put it is that, 62 00:02:25,409 --> 00:02:26,229 it's really 63 00:02:26,609 --> 00:02:28,389 a center for cool stuff. 64 00:02:30,385 --> 00:02:32,865 So whatever people seem to be talking about 65 00:02:32,865 --> 00:02:35,105 at dinner parties, and at the moment, it 66 00:02:35,105 --> 00:02:37,605 seems to largely be AI, and is it 67 00:02:37,665 --> 00:02:39,905 intelligent, and is it conscious, and all those 68 00:02:39,905 --> 00:02:42,625 things, you know, we we pitch in, and 69 00:02:42,625 --> 00:02:44,064 we we do that. We have, 70 00:02:44,625 --> 00:02:47,530 a sort of in house research program, which 71 00:02:47,530 --> 00:02:49,370 is a subset of all the things I've 72 00:02:49,370 --> 00:02:51,150 mentioned, but we hold workshops, 73 00:02:51,770 --> 00:02:52,270 on 74 00:02:52,650 --> 00:02:54,510 anything that's pushing the boundaries. 75 00:02:55,050 --> 00:02:57,370 So if there's a subject that's struggling to 76 00:02:57,370 --> 00:02:58,110 get out, 77 00:02:58,634 --> 00:03:00,495 and, for example, quantum biology, 78 00:03:01,034 --> 00:03:02,555 is there such a thing? Can we take 79 00:03:02,555 --> 00:03:03,215 it seriously? 80 00:03:05,034 --> 00:03:07,194 That things like that, we like to zero 81 00:03:07,194 --> 00:03:10,074 in on and bring people together and say, 82 00:03:10,074 --> 00:03:12,334 well, can we turn this into a 83 00:03:12,979 --> 00:03:15,159 a proper discipline? Can we create 84 00:03:16,659 --> 00:03:17,159 research 85 00:03:17,780 --> 00:03:19,000 projects and collaborations 86 00:03:19,459 --> 00:03:20,360 based upon, 87 00:03:21,219 --> 00:03:23,060 deliberations over the last two or three days? 88 00:03:23,060 --> 00:03:24,900 So that's that's how we'd like to operate. 89 00:03:24,900 --> 00:03:26,500 And we used to do about six a 90 00:03:26,500 --> 00:03:26,819 year, 91 00:03:27,344 --> 00:03:29,425 because I did a lot of cancer research. 92 00:03:29,425 --> 00:03:30,084 And so, 93 00:03:30,784 --> 00:03:32,784 four of these were funded by the National 94 00:03:32,784 --> 00:03:33,604 Cancer Institute. 95 00:03:34,144 --> 00:03:35,125 We used to push 96 00:03:35,745 --> 00:03:36,245 ideas, 97 00:03:36,705 --> 00:03:38,944 new ideas about the nature and origin of 98 00:03:38,944 --> 00:03:39,360 cancer. 99 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,639 That, program was wound up, and so we're 100 00:03:42,639 --> 00:03:45,199 down to about two a year now, maybe 101 00:03:45,199 --> 00:03:45,699 three. 102 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,099 How often does the the quantum 103 00:03:49,039 --> 00:03:50,800 realm of science, if you like, 104 00:03:51,199 --> 00:03:52,500 come into those discussions? 105 00:03:54,424 --> 00:03:56,284 I suppose with the workshops, 106 00:03:57,305 --> 00:03:59,944 it's always hard to avoid saying something quantum 107 00:03:59,944 --> 00:04:02,264 because, of course, it permits all of science, 108 00:04:02,264 --> 00:04:05,084 really. But those that focus specifically 109 00:04:06,185 --> 00:04:07,644 on quantum questions, 110 00:04:08,759 --> 00:04:11,419 probably only about, you know, one in five, 111 00:04:11,879 --> 00:04:14,199 maybe even less than that. As a matter 112 00:04:14,199 --> 00:04:15,579 of fact, I'm 113 00:04:15,879 --> 00:04:19,500 planning one in, April, which will be on, 114 00:04:21,479 --> 00:04:23,654 whether it often goes under the name of, 115 00:04:24,454 --> 00:04:24,954 biophotons. 116 00:04:25,814 --> 00:04:27,915 Living tissues emit photons, 117 00:04:28,615 --> 00:04:31,574 it turns out. No controversy anymore about that. 118 00:04:31,574 --> 00:04:33,274 Low a very low level specific 119 00:04:33,814 --> 00:04:34,954 frequency photons. 120 00:04:35,415 --> 00:04:37,574 What do they do? You say is it 121 00:04:37,574 --> 00:04:38,420 just a 122 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:39,860 concomitant 123 00:04:40,319 --> 00:04:40,819 process 124 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,500 that goes along with something basic like metabolism, 125 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:46,960 or is there a signaling function? And is 126 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,199 there anything sort of seriously quantum about it, 127 00:04:49,199 --> 00:04:50,180 like sub quasonian 128 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:51,665 statistics or, 129 00:04:52,444 --> 00:04:55,485 coherence or something. It's all, wide open. So 130 00:04:55,485 --> 00:04:57,004 we as a matter of fact, our next 131 00:04:57,004 --> 00:04:59,324 one will be very much in this sort 132 00:04:59,324 --> 00:05:01,404 of quantum area. Amazing. Okay. So I have 133 00:05:01,404 --> 00:05:02,925 in front of me a book which is 134 00:05:02,925 --> 00:05:05,645 called, Quantum two point o, the past, present, 135 00:05:05,645 --> 00:05:07,620 and future of quantum physics. 136 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,720 I've been delving deep into it and enjoying 137 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:12,639 it. But could you tell me well, tell 138 00:05:12,639 --> 00:05:15,139 everyone, what what is quantum two point o? 139 00:05:15,759 --> 00:05:16,480 So I think, 140 00:05:16,879 --> 00:05:18,819 it it won't have escaped people's attention 141 00:05:19,165 --> 00:05:21,504 that quantum mechanics has, pervaded, 142 00:05:22,125 --> 00:05:24,444 pretty much all of science and technology. It's 143 00:05:24,444 --> 00:05:26,464 the most successful scientific theory, 144 00:05:27,485 --> 00:05:30,384 in history, and it's a 100 years old 145 00:05:30,605 --> 00:05:31,665 this year because, 146 00:05:32,444 --> 00:05:34,319 depending a little bit on what you go 147 00:05:34,319 --> 00:05:36,180 back to. But if you go back to, 148 00:05:36,879 --> 00:05:38,019 Erwin Schrodinger's 149 00:05:38,639 --> 00:05:40,259 work and his famous equation 150 00:05:40,879 --> 00:05:41,699 and Heisenberg's 151 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,979 work, then it's just about a 100 years 152 00:05:45,439 --> 00:05:45,939 ago. 153 00:05:47,199 --> 00:05:50,064 And, it's given us all sorts of familiar 154 00:05:50,064 --> 00:05:52,704 things like the laser and the transistor and 155 00:05:52,704 --> 00:05:53,204 superconductors, 156 00:05:53,745 --> 00:05:56,944 and it explains electronics and AI and all 157 00:05:56,944 --> 00:05:59,125 these things people are familiar with. 158 00:06:00,224 --> 00:06:00,625 But, 159 00:06:01,024 --> 00:06:03,444 the at rock bottom, this is a theory 160 00:06:03,664 --> 00:06:04,319 that makes, 161 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,439 no sense. So after a hundred years of 162 00:06:07,439 --> 00:06:08,500 extraordinary success, 163 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,960 physicists are still squabbling over what it all 164 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,080 means. Now this is, has a new twist 165 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:15,699 now because some of the, 166 00:06:16,444 --> 00:06:18,764 what used to be called thought experiments, which 167 00:06:18,764 --> 00:06:20,925 were devised decades ago to try and sort 168 00:06:20,925 --> 00:06:22,865 of drill down into the philosophical 169 00:06:23,724 --> 00:06:25,104 aspects of this subject, 170 00:06:25,564 --> 00:06:27,745 the nature of reality at a quantum level, 171 00:06:28,444 --> 00:06:29,985 those experiments have been done 172 00:06:30,285 --> 00:06:33,610 and have been turned into a resource that 173 00:06:33,610 --> 00:06:37,290 can be used, for next great quantum leap 174 00:06:37,290 --> 00:06:37,790 forward, 175 00:06:38,410 --> 00:06:40,810 which, I'm calling quantum two point o. That 176 00:06:40,810 --> 00:06:43,550 seems to be a fairly universal description, 177 00:06:43,850 --> 00:06:45,550 but a more formal description 178 00:06:46,865 --> 00:06:48,564 is quantum information science. 179 00:06:49,264 --> 00:06:51,764 So we're familiar with the fact that quantum 180 00:06:51,824 --> 00:06:53,365 gadgets like computers 181 00:06:54,625 --> 00:06:55,605 process information, 182 00:06:56,064 --> 00:06:57,904 but they do it in a rather crude 183 00:06:57,904 --> 00:07:00,625 way. The gates and switches, and they're on 184 00:07:00,625 --> 00:07:02,819 and off and so on. And with a 185 00:07:02,819 --> 00:07:03,800 quantum computer, 186 00:07:04,419 --> 00:07:06,339 what you do is embed the information in 187 00:07:06,339 --> 00:07:08,740 the quantum degrees of freedom itself. So that's 188 00:07:08,740 --> 00:07:11,879 possible to manipulate individual photons and electrons 189 00:07:12,419 --> 00:07:13,160 and sculpt 190 00:07:13,779 --> 00:07:15,800 wave functions, quantum states, 191 00:07:16,419 --> 00:07:18,705 to order. It's possible to, 192 00:07:19,185 --> 00:07:20,004 carry out, 193 00:07:20,465 --> 00:07:22,545 some amazing new things. So I just mentioned 194 00:07:22,545 --> 00:07:24,965 quantum computing about this quantum teleportation, 195 00:07:25,345 --> 00:07:26,324 quantum cryptography, 196 00:07:26,944 --> 00:07:28,965 and a whole area of quantum sensing, 197 00:07:29,345 --> 00:07:30,245 which is commercially, 198 00:07:30,785 --> 00:07:32,085 burgeoning at the moment. 199 00:07:32,785 --> 00:07:34,410 So we're we're on the cusp of this 200 00:07:34,410 --> 00:07:35,949 next great quantum 201 00:07:36,490 --> 00:07:39,629 revolution where we go beyond just using, 202 00:07:40,329 --> 00:07:41,870 the quantum properties of matter, 203 00:07:42,889 --> 00:07:43,789 for technology. 204 00:07:44,089 --> 00:07:45,789 We're now being able to 205 00:07:46,175 --> 00:07:48,814 apply it to the concept of information itself, 206 00:07:49,134 --> 00:07:51,154 and that's very exciting. And 207 00:07:51,455 --> 00:07:53,295 we'll give a further twist to the whole 208 00:07:53,295 --> 00:07:55,214 question about what does it mean and how 209 00:07:55,214 --> 00:07:56,835 can we make sense of a world, 210 00:07:57,615 --> 00:07:58,275 in which 211 00:07:58,769 --> 00:08:00,709 quantum mechanics with all its weirdness, 212 00:08:01,170 --> 00:08:03,029 seems to pervade not just 213 00:08:03,490 --> 00:08:03,990 technology, 214 00:08:05,009 --> 00:08:08,050 but the whole of human society now. We're 215 00:08:08,050 --> 00:08:09,829 feeling the effects of this technology, 216 00:08:10,930 --> 00:08:12,470 pretty much everything we do. 217 00:08:12,975 --> 00:08:13,954 You you mentioned 218 00:08:14,254 --> 00:08:16,334 Schrodinger earlier, and I I get the impression 219 00:08:16,334 --> 00:08:17,694 from reading the book that may I mean, 220 00:08:17,694 --> 00:08:19,055 I don't wanna put words in your mouth, 221 00:08:19,055 --> 00:08:19,794 but maybe, 222 00:08:21,055 --> 00:08:22,194 you feel like his 223 00:08:23,134 --> 00:08:25,074 contributions might have been more important. 224 00:08:25,410 --> 00:08:27,730 Should should we be celebrating one hundred years 225 00:08:27,730 --> 00:08:29,090 next year if you see what I mean? 226 00:08:29,090 --> 00:08:30,710 It's true. The Schrodinger's equation, 227 00:08:31,330 --> 00:08:33,420 was published in January 228 00:08:33,420 --> 00:08:34,310 1926. 229 00:08:35,250 --> 00:08:37,490 And so, we could say that is the 230 00:08:37,490 --> 00:08:39,410 real centenary. But, of course, the work was 231 00:08:39,410 --> 00:08:42,285 done in, 1925, 232 00:08:42,345 --> 00:08:43,565 and, Heisenberg's 233 00:08:43,945 --> 00:08:46,845 effort was also in 1925. And UNESCO declared 234 00:08:47,065 --> 00:08:48,024 2025 235 00:08:48,024 --> 00:08:49,485 to be, the 236 00:08:49,785 --> 00:08:50,285 official 237 00:08:50,664 --> 00:08:53,565 centenary, the year of quantum science and technology. 238 00:08:53,850 --> 00:08:56,570 So it's it's always hard to know with 239 00:08:56,570 --> 00:08:59,209 huge developments in science exactly when to open 240 00:08:59,209 --> 00:08:59,789 the champagne. 241 00:09:00,490 --> 00:09:02,589 Yeah. Okay. But you think Schrodinger's, 242 00:09:03,529 --> 00:09:04,429 equation is 243 00:09:05,049 --> 00:09:07,415 more instrumental, should we say? Well, it it 244 00:09:07,415 --> 00:09:09,335 really is the starting point. If you're teaching 245 00:09:09,335 --> 00:09:10,315 quantum mechanics, 246 00:09:11,014 --> 00:09:12,475 what you do is you, 247 00:09:13,335 --> 00:09:15,254 say, here is the equation that you must 248 00:09:15,254 --> 00:09:17,254 use, and students often want to know, well, 249 00:09:17,254 --> 00:09:18,419 where did that come from? 250 00:09:19,220 --> 00:09:21,700 And that whole backstory is fascinating in its 251 00:09:21,700 --> 00:09:23,779 own way. But, usually, that's the starting point. 252 00:09:23,779 --> 00:09:26,039 And then you solve it for, 253 00:09:26,579 --> 00:09:28,519 you know, fairly simple minded 254 00:09:30,740 --> 00:09:33,954 situations like, the square well potential and the 255 00:09:33,954 --> 00:09:36,914 harmonic oscillator and the hydrogen atom and so 256 00:09:36,914 --> 00:09:38,774 on. And you very soon find 257 00:09:39,235 --> 00:09:41,334 that Schrodinger's equation gives you, 258 00:09:42,115 --> 00:09:44,294 a very powerful way of explaining 259 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,740 the properties of atoms and subatomic particles and, 260 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:50,840 molecules and so on. And it's it's the 261 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:52,139 way in which you do, 262 00:09:52,919 --> 00:09:53,419 practical 263 00:09:53,879 --> 00:09:55,740 quantum mechanics, the applications 264 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:57,259 of quantum mechanics. 265 00:09:58,565 --> 00:09:59,545 Now you can, 266 00:10:00,085 --> 00:10:02,325 take a step back and say, well, what 267 00:10:02,325 --> 00:10:04,085 does it really mean, and how should we 268 00:10:04,085 --> 00:10:06,425 understand it in a more abstract way? 269 00:10:06,805 --> 00:10:08,965 And it's true that a lot of cutting 270 00:10:08,965 --> 00:10:09,865 edge research 271 00:10:11,289 --> 00:10:12,350 really goes beyond 272 00:10:12,970 --> 00:10:15,230 Schrodinger's equation as a practical tool. 273 00:10:15,690 --> 00:10:16,190 And, 274 00:10:17,450 --> 00:10:17,950 we 275 00:10:18,490 --> 00:10:18,990 define 276 00:10:20,250 --> 00:10:23,070 vectors in infinite dimensional spaces and 277 00:10:23,975 --> 00:10:26,534 various sorts of algebras to apply to them 278 00:10:26,534 --> 00:10:29,414 and theorems approved about those and so on. 279 00:10:29,414 --> 00:10:31,495 So you don't have to work with something 280 00:10:31,495 --> 00:10:33,754 that seems sort of intuitive like a wave. 281 00:10:34,214 --> 00:10:34,954 You can, 282 00:10:35,254 --> 00:10:36,870 have this more abstract approach. 283 00:10:37,429 --> 00:10:39,589 But I think the starting point really for 284 00:10:39,589 --> 00:10:41,769 almost all students and the starting point historically 285 00:10:42,309 --> 00:10:45,350 was that equation. So I I've been reading 286 00:10:45,350 --> 00:10:46,009 the book, 287 00:10:46,389 --> 00:10:48,789 you know, in stolen moments around my my 288 00:10:48,789 --> 00:10:49,529 day job. 289 00:10:49,945 --> 00:10:52,065 And everybody who sees me not everybody. Lots 290 00:10:52,065 --> 00:10:53,625 of people who see me reading the book 291 00:10:53,625 --> 00:10:55,945 say, oh, quantum physics. That's really fast. I 292 00:10:55,945 --> 00:10:58,445 don't understand that at all. That's really interesting. 293 00:11:00,424 --> 00:11:02,664 That's quite a common thing. I don't understand 294 00:11:02,664 --> 00:11:03,544 it. It's really interesting. 295 00:11:04,629 --> 00:11:06,149 Why why did you want to write this 296 00:11:06,149 --> 00:11:08,149 book? Because there are other books on quantum 297 00:11:08,149 --> 00:11:09,909 physics. Right? So what what does this one 298 00:11:09,909 --> 00:11:11,909 bring to the table that the others don't? 299 00:11:11,909 --> 00:11:13,350 You have to look at my career. I 300 00:11:13,350 --> 00:11:16,485 think this is my 30 book, actually, if 301 00:11:16,485 --> 00:11:18,725 you depending on how you count, some are 302 00:11:18,725 --> 00:11:19,465 co authored. 303 00:11:22,085 --> 00:11:24,004 And, many years ago, I wrote a book 304 00:11:24,004 --> 00:11:26,404 called Quantum Fields in Curved Space. It's a 305 00:11:26,404 --> 00:11:28,899 quantum field theory, an aspect of, 306 00:11:29,460 --> 00:11:32,519 applied to gravitational systems, aspect of quantum gravity. 307 00:11:32,660 --> 00:11:35,060 I read a textbook called quantum mechanics based 308 00:11:35,060 --> 00:11:35,560 on, 309 00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:37,399 a course that I, 310 00:11:37,779 --> 00:11:38,440 I taught. 311 00:11:39,060 --> 00:11:40,920 And then in all these other books, 312 00:11:42,180 --> 00:11:42,420 the 313 00:11:43,220 --> 00:11:46,075 you have to deal with quantum physics in 314 00:11:46,075 --> 00:11:47,595 some sense. So if you're talking write a 315 00:11:47,595 --> 00:11:49,714 book on cosmology or black holes or whatever 316 00:11:49,714 --> 00:11:51,134 it is, inevitably, 317 00:11:52,154 --> 00:11:52,654 quantum 318 00:11:53,035 --> 00:11:54,794 mechanics is going to come in. And if 319 00:11:54,794 --> 00:11:56,315 you look back at those books as, you 320 00:11:56,315 --> 00:11:58,399 know, a chapter or a few sections or 321 00:11:58,399 --> 00:12:00,580 something in which I hurriedly go through, 322 00:12:01,039 --> 00:12:02,799 well, these are the basics that you need 323 00:12:02,799 --> 00:12:04,740 to understand this particular narrative. 324 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:06,820 But I have never 325 00:12:07,759 --> 00:12:08,259 really, 326 00:12:08,799 --> 00:12:10,720 at least not for many many decades, sat 327 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,615 down and tried to pull it all together 328 00:12:12,615 --> 00:12:14,774 as a subject, as a particular subject. And 329 00:12:14,774 --> 00:12:17,274 the centenary seemed like a very obvious time 330 00:12:17,575 --> 00:12:19,195 to do that, but also because 331 00:12:19,975 --> 00:12:22,535 it now I think, the word quantum is 332 00:12:22,535 --> 00:12:24,535 on everybody's lips. You you you work on 333 00:12:24,535 --> 00:12:26,475 a newspaper if anyone does that anymore. 334 00:12:27,029 --> 00:12:28,950 But the, you know, the news feeds are 335 00:12:28,950 --> 00:12:30,789 full of quantum. There's some quantum there. And 336 00:12:30,789 --> 00:12:33,370 this is largely this quantum two part data, 337 00:12:33,509 --> 00:12:35,370 the the whole quantum information 338 00:12:35,830 --> 00:12:37,450 revolution that's taking place. 339 00:12:37,909 --> 00:12:41,110 It's the sentiment going into it. Governments are, 340 00:12:41,509 --> 00:12:42,884 backing it, and 341 00:12:43,504 --> 00:12:44,565 it start dominating 342 00:12:45,985 --> 00:12:47,024 research, in, 343 00:12:47,664 --> 00:12:50,065 across a range of of disciplines. So it 344 00:12:50,065 --> 00:12:52,144 just seemed to me that this was a 345 00:12:52,144 --> 00:12:54,144 very opportune time. But I didn't wanna write 346 00:12:54,144 --> 00:12:56,720 a book just about, well, quantum mechanics is 347 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:58,399 great and it's given us all this technology, 348 00:12:58,399 --> 00:13:00,319 and now it's gonna give us more. I 349 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,399 my real interest is in, well, what does 350 00:13:02,399 --> 00:13:04,259 it all mean? How do we make sense 351 00:13:04,399 --> 00:13:05,379 of this theory 352 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:07,839 that says, you know, deep down among atoms 353 00:13:07,839 --> 00:13:10,404 and molecules, there isn't anything quite like 354 00:13:10,945 --> 00:13:13,125 a real world in the everyday sense. 355 00:13:13,504 --> 00:13:15,504 And so how is it that we can 356 00:13:15,504 --> 00:13:17,524 probe or investigate this fuzzy, 357 00:13:18,065 --> 00:13:18,565 uncertain, 358 00:13:19,184 --> 00:13:20,965 weird quantum realm 359 00:13:21,664 --> 00:13:22,164 and 360 00:13:22,465 --> 00:13:25,629 get answers that can be communicated between you 361 00:13:25,629 --> 00:13:27,629 and me. You know, did has the atom 362 00:13:27,629 --> 00:13:30,509 decayed? Yes. I heard that that that Geiger 363 00:13:30,509 --> 00:13:32,589 counter got click. You know, we can we 364 00:13:32,589 --> 00:13:34,289 can do that. We can, 365 00:13:34,990 --> 00:13:35,490 investigate 366 00:13:37,065 --> 00:13:40,024 with technology, investigate what is happening at the 367 00:13:40,024 --> 00:13:41,725 atomic and subatomic realm, 368 00:13:42,184 --> 00:13:42,924 and then 369 00:13:43,304 --> 00:13:45,304 make sense of it in the everyday world. 370 00:13:45,304 --> 00:13:46,365 But patching together 371 00:13:47,304 --> 00:13:48,044 the reality, 372 00:13:48,504 --> 00:13:50,490 the fuzzy reality of the 373 00:13:51,049 --> 00:13:53,629 subatomic world with the everyday reality, 374 00:13:54,889 --> 00:13:56,190 of tables and chairs, 375 00:13:56,649 --> 00:13:59,610 is is unfinished business. And there's a dozen 376 00:13:59,610 --> 00:14:01,850 or so, different proposals for how we should 377 00:14:01,850 --> 00:14:03,049 do that. Who do you think, 378 00:14:03,769 --> 00:14:05,235 who do you want to read the book? 379 00:14:05,315 --> 00:14:07,075 Right? If you if you could pick a 380 00:14:07,075 --> 00:14:09,315 particular section of society to read the book, 381 00:14:09,315 --> 00:14:10,214 who would it be? 382 00:14:11,315 --> 00:14:12,834 Well, you know, this is, 383 00:14:13,554 --> 00:14:15,495 what used to be called the the proverbial 384 00:14:15,794 --> 00:14:18,375 layman. That's somewhat sexist term. 385 00:14:18,834 --> 00:14:19,975 But this would be 386 00:14:20,549 --> 00:14:21,049 someone 387 00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:22,250 not necessarily, 388 00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:25,110 with a thorough knowledge of physics, but it 389 00:14:25,110 --> 00:14:26,070 would be someone used to, 390 00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:31,269 science and the scientific method and and, 391 00:14:32,654 --> 00:14:34,975 have some sort of background in thinking about 392 00:14:34,975 --> 00:14:37,714 science, but an interest in the deep philosophical 393 00:14:38,254 --> 00:14:39,714 aspects. So it would certainly 394 00:14:40,095 --> 00:14:40,914 appeal to 395 00:14:42,014 --> 00:14:44,195 philosophy students or or people, 396 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:45,000 with, 397 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,779 in everyday pre professions who are interested 398 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,720 in the big questions of existence. And I've 399 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:53,560 always written about those, the things like the 400 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,800 origin of the universe, nature of time, nature 401 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:56,379 of consciousness. 402 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,835 And quantum physics touches on all of those 403 00:14:59,995 --> 00:15:01,535 areas, and that they're all 404 00:15:01,995 --> 00:15:03,835 referred to in the book. I have sections 405 00:15:03,835 --> 00:15:04,894 on all of those things. 406 00:15:05,835 --> 00:15:08,154 And so, I, you know, I hope this 407 00:15:08,154 --> 00:15:10,254 appeals to a rather broad range of people. 408 00:15:10,315 --> 00:15:12,394 But what I didn't wanna do was just, 409 00:15:12,394 --> 00:15:13,995 you know, another book on, well, what does 410 00:15:13,995 --> 00:15:16,490 quantum mechanics all mean? I wanted to write 411 00:15:16,490 --> 00:15:16,990 about, 412 00:15:18,490 --> 00:15:20,570 this extraordinary effort that is now going into 413 00:15:20,570 --> 00:15:22,330 quantum two point zero, that all of this 414 00:15:22,330 --> 00:15:22,830 technology 415 00:15:23,370 --> 00:15:26,029 are really dazzling technology. And some of this 416 00:15:26,090 --> 00:15:28,250 is really just sort of on the age 417 00:15:28,250 --> 00:15:30,110 of of doability, 418 00:15:30,570 --> 00:15:32,424 things like quantum teleportation, 419 00:15:33,125 --> 00:15:35,125 you know, can be done. Is it going 420 00:15:35,125 --> 00:15:37,044 to be turned into a practical tool for, 421 00:15:37,044 --> 00:15:39,684 like, a quantum Internet? Well, my university has 422 00:15:39,684 --> 00:15:42,245 a whole lot of people beavering away to 423 00:15:42,245 --> 00:15:45,240 try to, understand that. It's a silly question 424 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:46,839 really because I don't think the answer is 425 00:15:46,839 --> 00:15:49,320 there. But but how quantum teleportation, tell me 426 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:50,919 how soon in terms of that, 427 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,720 computing aspect of it, how soon is that 428 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:54,779 gonna be a reality? 429 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,419 Right. Well, I think when people talk about 430 00:15:57,904 --> 00:15:59,985 teleportation, they think of Star Trek and Beam 431 00:15:59,985 --> 00:16:01,125 Me Up, Scotty, 432 00:16:01,425 --> 00:16:02,465 and all that stuff. 433 00:16:02,945 --> 00:16:05,024 What does it mean? It means sending something 434 00:16:05,024 --> 00:16:06,865 from a to b without passing through the 435 00:16:06,865 --> 00:16:07,845 space in between. 436 00:16:08,785 --> 00:16:09,285 And, 437 00:16:09,665 --> 00:16:10,710 you can do that 438 00:16:11,190 --> 00:16:11,690 in 439 00:16:12,149 --> 00:16:13,129 quantum systems, 440 00:16:13,509 --> 00:16:14,889 with a great deal of care. 441 00:16:15,509 --> 00:16:17,450 And you do it by using a property, 442 00:16:17,990 --> 00:16:20,889 of quantum systems called entanglement. And this goes 443 00:16:21,029 --> 00:16:23,670 right back to the culture wars of the 444 00:16:23,670 --> 00:16:25,294 nineteen thirties because, 445 00:16:26,315 --> 00:16:28,875 one of the people who kicked quantum theory 446 00:16:28,875 --> 00:16:30,254 off, Albert Einstein, 447 00:16:31,034 --> 00:16:33,195 never really liked it. In fact, he, 448 00:16:33,754 --> 00:16:35,835 was impeccably opposed to it, and the more 449 00:16:35,835 --> 00:16:37,195 it became developed, the, 450 00:16:37,914 --> 00:16:39,375 more of a skeptic he was. 451 00:16:40,159 --> 00:16:40,659 And 452 00:16:41,039 --> 00:16:42,959 the rest of the community got behind it, 453 00:16:42,959 --> 00:16:45,220 and in particular, Niels Bohr was the great 454 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:45,860 champion 455 00:16:46,319 --> 00:16:47,919 of what we might think of as the 456 00:16:47,919 --> 00:16:50,899 orthodox or textbook view, sometimes called the Copenhagen 457 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:52,819 view of quantum mechanics. 458 00:16:53,714 --> 00:16:54,995 And the two of them would, 459 00:16:55,554 --> 00:16:58,595 bicker at conferences, and Einstein was always trying 460 00:16:58,595 --> 00:17:02,034 to find flaws in quantum mechanics with thought 461 00:17:02,034 --> 00:17:03,875 experiments, which say, well, this can't be right 462 00:17:03,875 --> 00:17:05,875 because if we did this and, measured that 463 00:17:05,875 --> 00:17:07,769 and so on, we get an absurd answer. 464 00:17:07,930 --> 00:17:09,450 And he cooked up one of these in 465 00:17:09,450 --> 00:17:10,670 1935, 466 00:17:11,609 --> 00:17:12,109 and, 467 00:17:12,730 --> 00:17:14,430 it involves two particles 468 00:17:14,890 --> 00:17:15,390 which, 469 00:17:15,930 --> 00:17:17,630 fly apart from a common origin, 470 00:17:18,009 --> 00:17:20,509 and, each is separately investigated, 471 00:17:21,125 --> 00:17:22,805 maybe on opposite sides of the lab or 472 00:17:22,805 --> 00:17:25,285 even opposite sides of the galaxy. And so, 473 00:17:25,605 --> 00:17:26,424 you will have, 474 00:17:27,205 --> 00:17:30,005 a proverbial physicist called Alice and Bob, and 475 00:17:30,005 --> 00:17:32,565 Alice will measure her particle, and Bob will 476 00:17:32,565 --> 00:17:33,625 measure his particle. 477 00:17:34,180 --> 00:17:36,420 And it's very clear from the formalism of 478 00:17:36,420 --> 00:17:38,599 quantum mechanics that what happens, 479 00:17:39,140 --> 00:17:41,059 in Alice's lab and what happens in Bob's 480 00:17:41,059 --> 00:17:41,559 lab, 481 00:17:42,180 --> 00:17:45,400 are linked in some sort of, peculiar telepathic 482 00:17:45,539 --> 00:17:47,984 manner. That means that there is a degree 483 00:17:47,984 --> 00:17:50,464 of correlation in what they find over and 484 00:17:50,464 --> 00:17:50,964 above 485 00:17:51,265 --> 00:17:52,724 what could possibly exist, 486 00:17:53,424 --> 00:17:55,924 if these particles had all along 487 00:17:56,625 --> 00:17:59,265 possessed the properties that they are measured. So 488 00:17:59,265 --> 00:18:01,419 this goes to the heart of what, quantum 489 00:18:01,419 --> 00:18:03,039 mechanics is about. So Einstein 490 00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:04,000 hoped 491 00:18:04,779 --> 00:18:05,279 that, 492 00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:09,819 beneath the quantum realm of uncertainty and fuzziness, 493 00:18:09,819 --> 00:18:11,679 there was a sort of more rational 494 00:18:12,059 --> 00:18:13,184 classical world. 495 00:18:14,225 --> 00:18:16,404 When you make a measurement in quantum mechanics, 496 00:18:16,545 --> 00:18:17,765 according to the Copenhagen 497 00:18:18,065 --> 00:18:21,105 view, the official view, you don't uncover a 498 00:18:21,105 --> 00:18:22,325 preexisting reality. 499 00:18:23,585 --> 00:18:26,785 You create that reality or the specific aspects 500 00:18:26,785 --> 00:18:28,465 of that reality by the very act of 501 00:18:28,465 --> 00:18:28,965 measurement. 502 00:18:29,570 --> 00:18:30,630 And you see Einstein, 503 00:18:31,410 --> 00:18:33,410 didn't like that. So he when the particles 504 00:18:33,410 --> 00:18:35,890 fired apart, he wanted them to already have 505 00:18:35,890 --> 00:18:37,109 well defined properties, 506 00:18:37,410 --> 00:18:39,650 and that Alice and Bob merely discovered what 507 00:18:39,650 --> 00:18:41,809 those properties were. But it turns out when 508 00:18:41,809 --> 00:18:43,490 you actually do the real experiment, which you 509 00:18:43,490 --> 00:18:44,835 didn't have until the nineteen eighties, 510 00:18:45,554 --> 00:18:47,095 but Einstein was wrong, 511 00:18:47,554 --> 00:18:48,934 that it is the case, 512 00:18:49,634 --> 00:18:51,654 that, the these 513 00:18:52,835 --> 00:18:55,734 correlated particles that we're now calling entangled entangled 514 00:18:55,794 --> 00:18:56,294 particles, 515 00:18:58,355 --> 00:19:00,294 possess a degree of linkage, 516 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,380 a sort of telepathic linkage that could not 517 00:19:03,759 --> 00:19:05,380 be explained if they 518 00:19:05,759 --> 00:19:08,400 were born originally or emerge from a common 519 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,079 origin with well defined properties in advance. The 520 00:19:12,079 --> 00:19:13,679 only way you get around that is having 521 00:19:13,679 --> 00:19:14,894 some faster than light 522 00:19:15,375 --> 00:19:18,174 communication, because Einstein didn't want that because of 523 00:19:18,174 --> 00:19:19,474 his theory of relativity. 524 00:19:20,815 --> 00:19:22,434 So this thing called entanglement 525 00:19:23,055 --> 00:19:25,535 is now the resource that, it it's not 526 00:19:25,535 --> 00:19:26,515 just a matter of 527 00:19:27,214 --> 00:19:27,714 testing 528 00:19:28,170 --> 00:19:31,210 this, dispute between Einstein and Bohr, which was 529 00:19:31,210 --> 00:19:32,190 original motivation. 530 00:19:32,490 --> 00:19:33,549 It's now a resource 531 00:19:33,850 --> 00:19:36,490 that can be exploited in technology. One of 532 00:19:36,490 --> 00:19:39,070 the exploitations is in this teleportation, 533 00:19:40,090 --> 00:19:40,785 that if, 534 00:19:41,744 --> 00:19:43,365 the a third person, Charlie, 535 00:19:44,144 --> 00:19:46,465 sends an entangled pair of particles to Alice 536 00:19:46,465 --> 00:19:49,205 and Bob, they can Alice can manipulate, 537 00:19:50,625 --> 00:19:53,984 her entangled particle with the information she wants 538 00:19:53,984 --> 00:19:54,644 to send. 539 00:19:55,259 --> 00:19:55,660 And, 540 00:19:56,059 --> 00:19:58,140 Bob will then be able to recover that 541 00:19:58,140 --> 00:20:00,700 information at the other end without it actually 542 00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:02,700 being transmitted down any sort of, 543 00:20:03,259 --> 00:20:05,119 opt optical fiber or anything. 544 00:20:05,980 --> 00:20:08,325 And, there's a there's a caveat there that 545 00:20:08,325 --> 00:20:10,424 in order for that to happen, 546 00:20:11,284 --> 00:20:11,765 Alice, 547 00:20:12,085 --> 00:20:14,085 and Bob have to communicate the old fashioned 548 00:20:14,085 --> 00:20:15,384 way, say, with the telephone, 549 00:20:15,924 --> 00:20:18,005 to give some instructions about who measured what 550 00:20:18,005 --> 00:20:18,505 when. 551 00:20:18,964 --> 00:20:21,450 So you can't use this to send information 552 00:20:21,509 --> 00:20:23,750 faster than light. There's a common misconception that 553 00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:24,970 entanglement does 554 00:20:25,590 --> 00:20:28,009 enable faster than light communication. It doesn't. 555 00:20:28,870 --> 00:20:30,009 But it does mean, 556 00:20:30,549 --> 00:20:31,049 that, 557 00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:32,090 you can 558 00:20:33,345 --> 00:20:36,005 transmit and I'm talking not about transmitting, 559 00:20:36,704 --> 00:20:38,644 Captain Kirk. I'm talking about 560 00:20:39,265 --> 00:20:39,765 transmitting, 561 00:20:40,384 --> 00:20:42,704 you know, one qubit of information. The qubit 562 00:20:42,704 --> 00:20:44,244 does for quantum 563 00:20:44,785 --> 00:20:47,660 information sounds what the bit does for conventional, 564 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:48,940 computing. 565 00:20:49,799 --> 00:20:51,480 And so you can transmit a key bit. 566 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,039 It's been done. Now Paul went on to 567 00:20:54,039 --> 00:20:57,080 explain how these quantum experiments could translate into 568 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,580 a real world game changing technology 569 00:21:00,664 --> 00:21:02,365 or the quantum Internet. 570 00:21:02,904 --> 00:21:05,384 It's a fascinating area, but I really want 571 00:21:05,384 --> 00:21:07,224 you to read that section of the book. 572 00:21:07,224 --> 00:21:09,144 And if you do read no other bit, 573 00:21:09,144 --> 00:21:11,884 just delve into that. It's really fascinating area. 574 00:21:11,944 --> 00:21:14,250 Anyway, back to the conversation with Paul. So 575 00:21:14,329 --> 00:21:16,569 I think we've, you know, quantum information technology, 576 00:21:16,569 --> 00:21:18,809 quantum two point o has really got these, 577 00:21:19,130 --> 00:21:20,430 three legs. We've got, 578 00:21:21,130 --> 00:21:21,630 quantum, 579 00:21:22,569 --> 00:21:23,069 computing 580 00:21:23,609 --> 00:21:26,109 is the one we hear all about. Then 581 00:21:26,170 --> 00:21:27,789 the whole of the sort of quantum 582 00:21:28,365 --> 00:21:28,865 cryptography 583 00:21:29,404 --> 00:21:29,884 and, 584 00:21:30,365 --> 00:21:33,904 Internet and, tele population and then quantum sensing. 585 00:21:34,125 --> 00:21:35,884 And I think in terms of can I 586 00:21:35,884 --> 00:21:38,365 go out and buy a quantum gizmo that's 587 00:21:38,365 --> 00:21:39,025 going to, 588 00:21:39,724 --> 00:21:41,505 increase the profit in my company, 589 00:21:41,849 --> 00:21:43,450 The answer is yes? There are a lot 590 00:21:43,450 --> 00:21:46,569 of quantum sensors, being used and being developed. 591 00:21:46,569 --> 00:21:48,410 So that's the field that is really moving 592 00:21:48,410 --> 00:21:51,069 fast in the commercial space. But we hear 593 00:21:51,130 --> 00:21:53,609 more, I think, about quantum computing because some 594 00:21:53,609 --> 00:21:55,369 of the big players like Google and so 595 00:21:55,369 --> 00:21:55,694 on 596 00:21:56,335 --> 00:21:57,474 are involved in that. 597 00:21:58,815 --> 00:21:59,054 I'd 598 00:21:59,694 --> 00:22:01,454 that has just reminded me, 599 00:22:01,855 --> 00:22:03,294 of something I was reading about in your 600 00:22:03,294 --> 00:22:05,375 book, which did worry me, to be honest, 601 00:22:05,375 --> 00:22:06,355 which was about, 602 00:22:07,615 --> 00:22:11,019 AI and quantum computers. So this goes right 603 00:22:11,019 --> 00:22:13,500 to the heart of the weirdness of quantum 604 00:22:13,500 --> 00:22:14,880 mechanics and its mismatch 605 00:22:15,420 --> 00:22:18,220 with daily experience. So in daily life, we 606 00:22:18,220 --> 00:22:19,660 think that there's a real world out there, 607 00:22:19,660 --> 00:22:21,660 and it's in a well defined state. And 608 00:22:21,660 --> 00:22:22,710 and that seems to, 609 00:22:23,515 --> 00:22:26,554 work well enough, to to navigate human life. 610 00:22:26,954 --> 00:22:29,775 But then we start investigating this quantum realm. 611 00:22:30,474 --> 00:22:32,875 And the best way that I can explain 612 00:22:32,875 --> 00:22:34,714 it is if you take something like an 613 00:22:34,714 --> 00:22:36,015 electron or an atom, 614 00:22:37,660 --> 00:22:39,579 that a a quantum state for one of 615 00:22:39,579 --> 00:22:40,079 those, 616 00:22:40,460 --> 00:22:42,720 generally speaking, isn't doesn't, 617 00:22:43,420 --> 00:22:46,299 correspond to a well well defined properties like 618 00:22:46,299 --> 00:22:48,299 having a position or a motion or anything 619 00:22:48,299 --> 00:22:48,940 like that, 620 00:22:49,420 --> 00:22:52,115 that all of those factors are 621 00:22:52,734 --> 00:22:53,234 uncertain. 622 00:22:54,255 --> 00:22:56,335 And how should we think about that? Well, 623 00:22:56,335 --> 00:22:58,575 the the way that I like is that 624 00:22:58,575 --> 00:22:59,954 there are parallel 625 00:23:00,255 --> 00:23:01,554 alternative realities. 626 00:23:02,414 --> 00:23:04,654 You'll often read an atom can be in 627 00:23:04,654 --> 00:23:07,140 many places at once in in quantum mechanics. 628 00:23:07,380 --> 00:23:08,820 What do you mean by that? It really 629 00:23:08,820 --> 00:23:10,440 means that there are many potential 630 00:23:11,140 --> 00:23:13,220 positions that an atom could have, and you 631 00:23:13,220 --> 00:23:14,820 can set up a quantum state in which 632 00:23:14,820 --> 00:23:16,279 you could have an infinite number 633 00:23:16,660 --> 00:23:19,539 of potential positions. And one way to think 634 00:23:19,539 --> 00:23:21,774 about that is that these are alternative 635 00:23:22,075 --> 00:23:24,174 possible realities blended together 636 00:23:24,794 --> 00:23:25,934 to form an amalgam. 637 00:23:27,194 --> 00:23:29,774 And and the then the question is, 638 00:23:30,154 --> 00:23:32,095 you know, how how are we to understand, 639 00:23:33,034 --> 00:23:35,194 that how that amalgam when we make a 640 00:23:35,194 --> 00:23:35,694 measurement, 641 00:23:36,369 --> 00:23:38,849 that we get a definite result. One one 642 00:23:38,849 --> 00:23:41,269 of those possible worlds gets promoted 643 00:23:41,970 --> 00:23:42,950 to a real world. 644 00:23:43,650 --> 00:23:45,329 It's the winner, so to speak, in a 645 00:23:45,329 --> 00:23:46,549 great cosmic lottery. 646 00:23:47,490 --> 00:23:51,085 And that process of measurement, is is deeply 647 00:23:51,085 --> 00:23:51,585 mysterious. 648 00:23:52,365 --> 00:23:54,605 We still don't know what it is, how 649 00:23:54,605 --> 00:23:55,904 it is that the, 650 00:23:56,445 --> 00:23:57,664 the the amalgam, 651 00:23:58,365 --> 00:24:00,545 turns into a a specific winner. 652 00:24:01,069 --> 00:24:02,929 So one way of thinking about, 653 00:24:03,390 --> 00:24:05,549 the quantum realm is an infinite number of 654 00:24:05,549 --> 00:24:08,750 possibilities. And mathematically, we can describe that as 655 00:24:08,750 --> 00:24:10,690 like an infinite dimensional space. 656 00:24:11,069 --> 00:24:12,910 Now now you and I don't live in 657 00:24:12,910 --> 00:24:15,089 an infinite dimensional space. We see three, 658 00:24:15,755 --> 00:24:17,695 spatial dimensions, one of time, 659 00:24:18,154 --> 00:24:20,235 and that's it. And yet, you know, the 660 00:24:20,235 --> 00:24:22,015 atom lives in this, 661 00:24:22,955 --> 00:24:25,835 infinite dimensional realm. So if you could imagine 662 00:24:25,835 --> 00:24:26,735 being an atom, 663 00:24:28,075 --> 00:24:30,494 what would you experience? You would experience something 664 00:24:30,555 --> 00:24:31,535 infinitely richer, 665 00:24:32,519 --> 00:24:35,259 than than we can experience in daily life. 666 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,279 And so, if you think that reality is 667 00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:40,600 really at the quantum level, we think that's 668 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,920 the sort of place basement of reality. The 669 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,140 quant quantum mechanics 670 00:24:44,519 --> 00:24:47,144 sits at the bottom of our explanatory chain 671 00:24:47,305 --> 00:24:50,365 and that the everyday world is an approximation 672 00:24:50,664 --> 00:24:52,664 for the quantum world. But that but if 673 00:24:52,664 --> 00:24:54,125 you ask, you know, 674 00:24:54,585 --> 00:24:56,825 how does god see the universe? Well, it 675 00:24:56,825 --> 00:24:58,684 would be through quantum eyes. 676 00:24:59,305 --> 00:24:59,865 And so, 677 00:25:00,759 --> 00:25:03,480 then you have to think, well, if we 678 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,779 only ourselves see a tiny, tiny, 679 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:08,059 in impoverished 680 00:25:09,319 --> 00:25:12,059 view of the the deep quantum reality, 681 00:25:13,174 --> 00:25:14,474 what would it be like, 682 00:25:15,174 --> 00:25:16,954 if you had a conscious 683 00:25:17,255 --> 00:25:18,474 being on intelligence 684 00:25:19,015 --> 00:25:21,414 who could explore the whole of that infinite 685 00:25:21,414 --> 00:25:23,654 dimensional space? It's it's called a Hilbert space 686 00:25:23,654 --> 00:25:24,154 after, 687 00:25:25,349 --> 00:25:27,750 David Hilbert, the mathematician, but it doesn't matter. 688 00:25:27,750 --> 00:25:30,150 The whole point is that this, that the 689 00:25:30,150 --> 00:25:33,529 quantum realm, which is, an just this infinite 690 00:25:33,589 --> 00:25:36,309 amalgam of all these possible realities, if you 691 00:25:36,309 --> 00:25:37,049 could actually 692 00:25:37,429 --> 00:25:39,944 inhabit that or observe it in some way, 693 00:25:40,825 --> 00:25:42,524 then it's very hard to imagine, 694 00:25:42,984 --> 00:25:44,284 you know, what what 695 00:25:44,984 --> 00:25:46,605 that experience would be like. 696 00:25:46,984 --> 00:25:49,164 Now we can't do it, but, 697 00:25:49,544 --> 00:25:52,264 supposing we were to build now everyone is 698 00:25:52,264 --> 00:25:55,890 building talk about AI, artificial intelligence. Is 699 00:25:56,509 --> 00:25:58,670 he conscious? Is he intelligent? And so on. 700 00:25:58,670 --> 00:26:00,590 I think that most people would say, well, 701 00:26:00,590 --> 00:26:02,349 not yet. We haven't got there yet. But 702 00:26:02,349 --> 00:26:02,830 now, 703 00:26:03,470 --> 00:26:05,390 supposedly we do. Supposed we get to the 704 00:26:05,390 --> 00:26:08,029 stage where, we would say, well, AI, it's 705 00:26:08,109 --> 00:26:10,214 we might as well assume that it's the 706 00:26:10,335 --> 00:26:11,954 we're dealing with a conscious agent, 707 00:26:12,494 --> 00:26:14,115 and this could come quite soon. 708 00:26:14,734 --> 00:26:16,914 Then what would happen if we combine this 709 00:26:17,055 --> 00:26:17,555 with 710 00:26:18,015 --> 00:26:20,335 with quantum two point zero? And there is 711 00:26:20,335 --> 00:26:23,315 indeed an effort to to build quantum artificial 712 00:26:23,375 --> 00:26:24,515 intelligence, QAI. 713 00:26:25,710 --> 00:26:27,169 And then we can think, well, 714 00:26:27,789 --> 00:26:29,569 what what what would 715 00:26:30,190 --> 00:26:31,890 this entity, this agent 716 00:26:32,429 --> 00:26:35,069 that could explore the whole Hilbert space, what 717 00:26:35,069 --> 00:26:36,349 would it have to say to us, and 718 00:26:36,349 --> 00:26:38,029 what sort of problems could it solve that 719 00:26:38,029 --> 00:26:39,944 we could never ever solve even with the 720 00:26:39,944 --> 00:26:41,724 help of our conventional computers? 721 00:26:42,265 --> 00:26:43,644 So it does open up, 722 00:26:44,105 --> 00:26:44,605 something, 723 00:26:45,625 --> 00:26:46,125 science 724 00:26:46,585 --> 00:26:49,164 fiction realm at the moment, but philosophically, 725 00:26:50,585 --> 00:26:53,544 disturbing or exciting or challenging, depending on which 726 00:26:53,544 --> 00:26:54,690 way you want to look at it, 727 00:26:55,649 --> 00:26:58,629 notion that a conscious quantum entity, 728 00:26:59,809 --> 00:27:00,549 would be, 729 00:27:01,329 --> 00:27:02,389 I I imagine, 730 00:27:02,690 --> 00:27:03,190 incomprehensible 731 00:27:03,569 --> 00:27:05,349 to us in terms of its experiences. 732 00:27:06,289 --> 00:27:07,809 And and it may be that we're gonna 733 00:27:07,809 --> 00:27:09,509 build one of those within 734 00:27:10,414 --> 00:27:12,015 the lifetime of some of the people listening 735 00:27:12,015 --> 00:27:12,674 to us. 736 00:27:12,974 --> 00:27:14,034 Do you think we should? 737 00:27:15,054 --> 00:27:15,534 Well, 738 00:27:15,934 --> 00:27:18,034 what we're into here, there's 739 00:27:18,575 --> 00:27:21,794 this debate taking place just with conventional AI, 740 00:27:22,255 --> 00:27:22,755 that 741 00:27:23,134 --> 00:27:25,289 at what point do we hand over, 742 00:27:26,009 --> 00:27:28,590 to to these, things and let them 743 00:27:29,450 --> 00:27:31,769 run our our our world for us. You 744 00:27:31,769 --> 00:27:34,109 even get into it in a smaller way 745 00:27:34,330 --> 00:27:36,830 with quantum sensors because I mentioned 746 00:27:37,289 --> 00:27:40,055 that, you can you can use them 747 00:27:40,674 --> 00:27:43,234 to monitor human brainwaves. You you can wear 748 00:27:43,234 --> 00:27:43,815 a helmet, 749 00:27:44,595 --> 00:27:47,795 with quantum magnetometers in them that can pick 750 00:27:47,795 --> 00:27:50,035 up a tiny magnetic field that penetrate the 751 00:27:50,035 --> 00:27:51,640 skull. And then you can couple 752 00:27:52,259 --> 00:27:52,759 the, 753 00:27:53,460 --> 00:27:55,940 subject to a computer. You could use that 754 00:27:55,940 --> 00:27:58,119 to control robot arms or, 755 00:27:58,899 --> 00:28:00,019 vehicles or, 756 00:28:00,980 --> 00:28:02,200 anything you want, really. 757 00:28:02,819 --> 00:28:03,799 Once you you 758 00:28:04,304 --> 00:28:05,684 couple the human brain 759 00:28:05,984 --> 00:28:08,625 to a computer or to the Internet. And 760 00:28:08,625 --> 00:28:10,804 that raises the question, does this enhance 761 00:28:11,424 --> 00:28:12,804 what it means to be human, 762 00:28:13,585 --> 00:28:15,424 or does it diminish that? In other words, 763 00:28:15,424 --> 00:28:17,204 are we going to become like a node, 764 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,559 just a mere node in something much bigger? 765 00:28:20,559 --> 00:28:22,400 And is that is that good or is 766 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,320 it bad? And it it depends on on 767 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,140 your, philosophical point of view. There are religions 768 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:27,599 in which, 769 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,640 immersing yourself in the great sort of cosmic 770 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,660 consciousness is regarded as progress. 771 00:28:33,794 --> 00:28:34,534 That doesn't 772 00:28:35,154 --> 00:28:37,174 the Western tradition tends to, 773 00:28:37,875 --> 00:28:41,075 be, I think, very suspicious of the idea 774 00:28:41,075 --> 00:28:41,575 of, 775 00:28:42,755 --> 00:28:44,054 surrendering something, 776 00:28:44,515 --> 00:28:46,034 of what it what it needs to be 777 00:28:46,034 --> 00:28:48,480 human to some bigger system. So that's that's 778 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,019 something that would have to be, 779 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,599 be fought out e even before we get 780 00:28:53,599 --> 00:28:56,000 to the idea of quantum AI. It's bad 781 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,220 enough for just AI. 782 00:28:58,799 --> 00:29:01,125 Yes. You know, we're I look at the 783 00:29:01,125 --> 00:29:03,365 world, and I'd I'd I don't necessarily think 784 00:29:03,365 --> 00:29:05,285 that all the people in all the countries 785 00:29:05,285 --> 00:29:07,365 should be the people in power. Right? I 786 00:29:07,365 --> 00:29:09,785 think there could be better options than that. 787 00:29:09,845 --> 00:29:11,225 Yes. It's a very uncontentious 788 00:29:11,605 --> 00:29:14,129 question. People could draw their own conclusions as 789 00:29:14,129 --> 00:29:16,129 to who I'm referring to. But if that's 790 00:29:16,129 --> 00:29:18,049 what we do as humans, why why shouldn't 791 00:29:18,049 --> 00:29:20,609 we give it over to, you know, something 792 00:29:20,609 --> 00:29:22,769 that maybe new Northern Us? Why shouldn't we 793 00:29:22,769 --> 00:29:23,990 give power over 794 00:29:24,369 --> 00:29:25,109 our lives, 795 00:29:25,565 --> 00:29:28,365 our world, our universe to something that maybe 796 00:29:28,365 --> 00:29:30,365 could understand things better than me? I keep 797 00:29:30,365 --> 00:29:32,525 changing my mind on this very topic. I 798 00:29:32,525 --> 00:29:33,805 think, you know, look at the state of 799 00:29:33,805 --> 00:29:35,664 the world today, and I think, well, 800 00:29:37,005 --> 00:29:40,049 we're we're electing in some countries. We elect, 801 00:29:41,070 --> 00:29:42,190 individuals, and then, 802 00:29:42,990 --> 00:29:44,589 they seem to make a hash of things. 803 00:29:44,589 --> 00:29:46,589 And then I think to myself, well, the 804 00:29:46,589 --> 00:29:49,009 people I I know who I really admire 805 00:29:49,150 --> 00:29:51,070 and who wants to change the world for 806 00:29:51,070 --> 00:29:52,910 the better are not gonna do it through 807 00:29:52,910 --> 00:29:54,575 the political process. They 808 00:29:55,755 --> 00:29:58,315 do it through through writing or developing new 809 00:29:58,315 --> 00:29:58,815 technology 810 00:29:59,194 --> 00:30:01,294 or starting foundations or something. 811 00:30:02,714 --> 00:30:05,034 And so it is getting to the stage 812 00:30:05,034 --> 00:30:07,434 where you think, would we be better off 813 00:30:07,434 --> 00:30:08,255 as a species, 814 00:30:09,359 --> 00:30:10,099 being managed 815 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:10,900 by 816 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:13,200 AI? So but I tell you what the 817 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:14,019 danger is. 818 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,240 We're now developing, as it were, the first 819 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,420 generation of AI. So maybe QAI 820 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,180 is not far behind. 821 00:30:20,799 --> 00:30:21,299 And, 822 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,384 I think everybody recognizes there are dangers of 823 00:30:24,384 --> 00:30:25,284 sort of unrestrained 824 00:30:25,825 --> 00:30:27,585 AI development, that we ought to have a 825 00:30:27,585 --> 00:30:28,085 framework, 826 00:30:29,184 --> 00:30:30,244 ethical framework, 827 00:30:30,944 --> 00:30:33,424 practical framework, the you know, don't let these 828 00:30:33,424 --> 00:30:34,079 things loose, 829 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,880 if they're gonna go berserk and destroy us, 830 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,740 or don't put them in charge of 831 00:30:39,279 --> 00:30:41,759 battlefield or anything. That's all people worry about 832 00:30:41,759 --> 00:30:42,419 all that. 833 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:43,940 So we can imagine, 834 00:30:45,359 --> 00:30:45,859 constructing 835 00:30:46,399 --> 00:30:47,140 the necessary, 836 00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:48,819 software, 837 00:30:49,845 --> 00:30:50,825 for these things, 838 00:30:51,125 --> 00:30:52,345 which would embed, 839 00:30:53,285 --> 00:30:56,804 roughly speaking, human values. And, Isaac Asimov was, 840 00:30:56,964 --> 00:30:58,345 the great visionary. He writes 841 00:30:58,804 --> 00:31:01,525 about robotics way back in the fifties, and 842 00:31:01,525 --> 00:31:02,825 there are the three laws, 843 00:31:03,285 --> 00:31:03,785 Asimov's 844 00:31:04,319 --> 00:31:05,700 laws of robotics. 845 00:31:06,559 --> 00:31:08,720 And you think, well, okay. We could we 846 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,740 could design this first generation 847 00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:11,779 of ARs, 848 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,339 to to do no evil. 849 00:31:15,599 --> 00:31:17,965 We'd we'd argue over what that means, but 850 00:31:17,965 --> 00:31:19,965 we could imagine doing it. But the trouble 851 00:31:19,965 --> 00:31:22,445 is the technology is moving so fast that 852 00:31:22,445 --> 00:31:25,164 AI is already developing the next generation of 853 00:31:25,164 --> 00:31:27,085 AI and the next generation and so on. 854 00:31:27,085 --> 00:31:28,945 So supposing we surrender, 855 00:31:29,965 --> 00:31:30,465 the 856 00:31:30,859 --> 00:31:32,080 management of the planet 857 00:31:32,859 --> 00:31:33,259 to, 858 00:31:33,740 --> 00:31:35,900 a a system of AIs, and we sit 859 00:31:35,900 --> 00:31:37,900 back thinking, well, we can enjoy all this 860 00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:38,619 now. You know, it's 861 00:31:39,340 --> 00:31:40,859 we can just have a good life and 862 00:31:40,859 --> 00:31:42,640 let the AIs worry about 863 00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:44,320 climate change or, 864 00:31:45,515 --> 00:31:47,835 supply chain management or all of the things, 865 00:31:47,835 --> 00:31:50,795 starvation. It would well outsource it to them. 866 00:31:50,795 --> 00:31:51,535 But then, 867 00:31:52,235 --> 00:31:54,174 the the the next generation 868 00:31:54,634 --> 00:31:55,215 of AIs, 869 00:31:55,755 --> 00:31:57,450 if if you you know, I think about 870 00:31:57,690 --> 00:31:59,690 evolution. You know that with each generation, there 871 00:31:59,690 --> 00:32:02,109 are accidents and glitches and things don't get, 872 00:32:03,130 --> 00:32:05,069 passed on quite right. And, 873 00:32:05,450 --> 00:32:07,149 over a million generations, 874 00:32:07,450 --> 00:32:09,609 can we really believe that in the far 875 00:32:09,609 --> 00:32:10,109 future, 876 00:32:10,985 --> 00:32:13,465 that the AI is running things, are going 877 00:32:13,465 --> 00:32:16,105 to still embed those human values? I think 878 00:32:16,105 --> 00:32:18,605 it's very, very unlikely. So once you unleash 879 00:32:19,144 --> 00:32:21,644 this AI world with its downstream 880 00:32:22,105 --> 00:32:23,325 consequences for 881 00:32:23,785 --> 00:32:25,404 end generation AIs, 882 00:32:25,865 --> 00:32:28,099 that's starting to look really scary, 883 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,559 but it may be unstoppable. I feel like 884 00:32:30,559 --> 00:32:33,279 every conversation, every podcast that I'm doing at 885 00:32:33,279 --> 00:32:36,000 the moment could end up in, you know, 886 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:37,460 a black hole of, 887 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:39,920 what is AI going to bring to us. 888 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,775 So I wanna just get back to the 889 00:32:41,775 --> 00:32:43,475 the quantum side of things. 890 00:32:43,934 --> 00:32:45,615 And with this being the International Year of 891 00:32:45,615 --> 00:32:47,775 Quantum, it we've we've covered a few different 892 00:32:47,775 --> 00:32:49,615 areas of it over the course of the 893 00:32:49,615 --> 00:32:50,434 year, including, 894 00:32:50,815 --> 00:32:51,634 you know, conversations 895 00:32:52,015 --> 00:32:52,515 with 896 00:32:53,055 --> 00:32:54,835 quantum physicists, but also 897 00:32:55,535 --> 00:32:58,230 artists who have delved into the world of 898 00:32:58,230 --> 00:33:00,569 quantum in their work. People like Serena Scappanini, 899 00:33:00,869 --> 00:33:03,029 who was in a podcast with us recently, 900 00:33:03,029 --> 00:33:04,089 and Fliss Inkpen 901 00:33:04,470 --> 00:33:05,130 as well. 902 00:33:05,509 --> 00:33:08,309 And there's something in your book about quantum 903 00:33:08,309 --> 00:33:09,829 music. Could you tell me just a bit 904 00:33:09,829 --> 00:33:10,484 about that? 905 00:33:14,005 --> 00:33:15,605 Well, this I I have to admit this 906 00:33:15,605 --> 00:33:17,285 is a little bit of a gimmick, but 907 00:33:17,285 --> 00:33:18,424 some people have, 908 00:33:19,204 --> 00:33:20,424 decided that they, 909 00:33:21,285 --> 00:33:22,184 would like to 910 00:33:23,470 --> 00:33:26,210 couple musical instruments to a quantum computer. 911 00:33:27,069 --> 00:33:27,569 And, 912 00:33:28,109 --> 00:33:29,169 the thing about 913 00:33:30,029 --> 00:33:33,329 quantum mechanics is that it's got, intrinsic 914 00:33:33,869 --> 00:33:36,190 elements of of randomness to it, but it's 915 00:33:36,190 --> 00:33:37,650 not, like chaos. 916 00:33:38,664 --> 00:33:39,244 And so, 917 00:33:40,744 --> 00:33:42,125 if you play your music, 918 00:33:42,825 --> 00:33:45,404 through or in collaboration with a quantum computer, 919 00:33:45,465 --> 00:33:46,924 it's going to be a very, 920 00:33:47,945 --> 00:33:49,484 novel type of jazz 921 00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:55,029 innovation because there'll be some unexpected elements, and 922 00:33:55,029 --> 00:33:56,330 then there'll be some coherence, 923 00:33:56,710 --> 00:33:58,330 to it and so on. 924 00:33:58,950 --> 00:34:00,150 And so I think that, you know, it's 925 00:34:00,150 --> 00:34:01,590 a little bit of an effort to try 926 00:34:01,590 --> 00:34:02,090 to, 927 00:34:03,524 --> 00:34:04,024 to, 928 00:34:04,964 --> 00:34:06,804 I guess, the bigger thing is that we've 929 00:34:06,804 --> 00:34:09,144 been talking science a lot about the technology 930 00:34:09,284 --> 00:34:11,864 that comes from it. But great scientific revolutions 931 00:34:11,925 --> 00:34:14,505 always have implications for the arts as well. 932 00:34:14,804 --> 00:34:17,760 And quantum music is probably just the first, 933 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:20,559 of the way in which, 934 00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:23,920 quantum information science. Because when we get to 935 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:24,579 the information, 936 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,059 we're combining it with things like 937 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,179 creativity and knowledge and understanding, 938 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:31,699 and art. 939 00:34:33,344 --> 00:34:36,005 So, quantum information science will impact 940 00:34:36,385 --> 00:34:38,625 the arts, I think, right across. So I 941 00:34:38,625 --> 00:34:39,344 can imagine, 942 00:34:39,985 --> 00:34:40,485 even, 943 00:34:41,585 --> 00:34:43,684 with drama and the performing arts 944 00:34:43,985 --> 00:34:44,485 where, 945 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,239 you'd embark on a play, but you wouldn't 946 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:48,699 know how it's going to end, 947 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,400 partway through because you'd have a a quantum 948 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,960 AI or something would be the or more 949 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,300 modestly just a capital quantum computer 950 00:34:56,599 --> 00:34:58,440 that would be sort of rewriting the script 951 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,025 as he went along. So, you know, I 952 00:35:00,025 --> 00:35:01,804 think there's there's a lot of an entertaining 953 00:35:02,025 --> 00:35:03,724 aspect that could come out of quantity. 954 00:35:04,105 --> 00:35:05,804 No. Absolutely. Now the book, 955 00:35:06,105 --> 00:35:08,264 is or I think entertaining is definitely a 956 00:35:08,264 --> 00:35:09,324 word I would use, 957 00:35:09,784 --> 00:35:11,945 to describe it. And I think that when 958 00:35:11,945 --> 00:35:14,200 you described the person for whom it is 959 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:15,960 meant, I felt like you were describing me, 960 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:17,579 to be perfectly honest with you. 961 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,019 But my my my feeling is that 962 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,119 it doesn't really matter whether I understand this 963 00:35:24,119 --> 00:35:26,119 stuff. It gives me great joy to try 964 00:35:26,119 --> 00:35:27,880 and understand it and to read the book. 965 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,315 Right? But does it actually 966 00:35:30,014 --> 00:35:32,034 matter if people like me 967 00:35:32,335 --> 00:35:34,734 know about the quantum realm that's got, you 968 00:35:34,734 --> 00:35:35,234 know, 969 00:35:35,534 --> 00:35:36,914 permeating through everything? 970 00:35:38,014 --> 00:35:38,454 Well, 971 00:35:38,894 --> 00:35:39,335 the 972 00:35:39,775 --> 00:35:42,369 so it's often being said where when people 973 00:35:42,369 --> 00:35:44,929 say nice things about my writing, they say, 974 00:35:44,929 --> 00:35:46,369 well, you know, that was wonderful. And then 975 00:35:46,369 --> 00:35:47,570 I read I read your book or I 976 00:35:47,570 --> 00:35:49,409 read your article, and and I thought, oh, 977 00:35:49,409 --> 00:35:51,730 now I understand this obscure subject. But, you 978 00:35:51,730 --> 00:35:53,170 know, the following day when I tried to 979 00:35:53,170 --> 00:35:54,789 explain to my mother, I realized 980 00:35:57,625 --> 00:35:59,704 there is there is an art in, 981 00:36:00,105 --> 00:36:02,364 dealing with very technical and very 982 00:36:02,984 --> 00:36:04,844 intellectual challenging subjects, 983 00:36:05,385 --> 00:36:08,184 to find analogies and shortcuts and ways of 984 00:36:08,184 --> 00:36:10,230 sort of conveying the spirit of something, 985 00:36:11,190 --> 00:36:13,109 without having to get into the weeds of 986 00:36:13,109 --> 00:36:13,849 the technicalities. 987 00:36:14,309 --> 00:36:16,230 And I think that this book I mean, 988 00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:18,230 I'd probably get more into the weeds with 989 00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:20,630 this book I have with previous books because 990 00:36:20,630 --> 00:36:23,385 some of the experiments are the delayed choice 991 00:36:24,025 --> 00:36:26,425 experiments and the quantum erase and so on, 992 00:36:26,425 --> 00:36:28,505 I'll go into in quite some detail because 993 00:36:28,505 --> 00:36:30,744 they're so bizarre when you if you take 994 00:36:30,744 --> 00:36:32,184 the trouble to to, 995 00:36:32,505 --> 00:36:35,065 go through them. The nature of reality is 996 00:36:35,065 --> 00:36:35,804 so weird, 997 00:36:36,505 --> 00:36:38,369 that I felt it was worth spelling all 998 00:36:38,369 --> 00:36:39,109 that out. 999 00:36:40,289 --> 00:36:41,670 Now as to whether, 1000 00:36:42,130 --> 00:36:42,869 it matters 1001 00:36:43,650 --> 00:36:45,969 whether members of the public have grasp of 1002 00:36:45,969 --> 00:36:46,469 this, 1003 00:36:47,569 --> 00:36:49,750 I think I'm writing for people for whom 1004 00:36:50,449 --> 00:36:53,029 this subject is sort of intriguing and entertaining 1005 00:36:53,625 --> 00:36:56,344 and also pushes the boundaries for them to 1006 00:36:56,344 --> 00:36:58,664 think about what what is my place in 1007 00:36:58,664 --> 00:37:00,684 the world? How should I understand the world? 1008 00:37:01,704 --> 00:37:04,605 But there's also the sense in which because 1009 00:37:04,664 --> 00:37:06,824 we live in a world that's dominated by 1010 00:37:06,824 --> 00:37:07,885 quantum technology, 1011 00:37:08,289 --> 00:37:10,869 people have some idea what is this thing. 1012 00:37:11,009 --> 00:37:12,549 Because they used to work quantum, 1013 00:37:13,009 --> 00:37:15,170 you know, as if that explains everything. Oh, 1014 00:37:15,170 --> 00:37:17,089 it's quantum. Oh, yeah. I I know what 1015 00:37:17,089 --> 00:37:19,250 you mean. But but I I think people 1016 00:37:19,250 --> 00:37:21,045 should have some understanding of 1017 00:37:21,744 --> 00:37:22,804 of how those ideas 1018 00:37:23,184 --> 00:37:25,844 came into society over a hundred years ago, 1019 00:37:26,385 --> 00:37:26,885 and 1020 00:37:27,265 --> 00:37:28,965 and how important it is. 1021 00:37:29,664 --> 00:37:31,344 And and it's not just a label. I 1022 00:37:31,344 --> 00:37:32,565 mean, it is actually 1023 00:37:32,864 --> 00:37:34,324 a a scientific discipline. 1024 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,400 And as I said earlier, the most successful 1025 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:38,460 scientific theory, 1026 00:37:39,079 --> 00:37:40,219 in in history. 1027 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,079 So I think people ought to know something 1028 00:37:43,079 --> 00:37:46,199 about it. It's you know, it it there 1029 00:37:46,199 --> 00:37:46,859 was famous 1030 00:37:47,894 --> 00:37:48,394 writer, 1031 00:37:48,775 --> 00:37:50,855 Charles Snow, c p Snow, who wrote about 1032 00:37:50,855 --> 00:37:51,835 their two cultures, 1033 00:37:53,255 --> 00:37:54,555 some decades ago. 1034 00:37:54,934 --> 00:37:56,715 I'd bemoan the fact that, 1035 00:37:57,974 --> 00:37:58,875 at high table 1036 00:37:59,574 --> 00:38:01,035 at, at a college, 1037 00:38:02,179 --> 00:38:04,679 where you're mixing people from different disciplines, 1038 00:38:05,859 --> 00:38:07,859 you would be appalled if one of the 1039 00:38:07,859 --> 00:38:08,920 scientists said, 1040 00:38:09,460 --> 00:38:11,960 well, I don't know anything about William Shakespeare. 1041 00:38:12,019 --> 00:38:14,019 You know? Was he a poet? I think 1042 00:38:14,019 --> 00:38:15,880 he wrote plays, didn't he? But, yeah, 1043 00:38:16,179 --> 00:38:17,835 I know nothing about it. You you really 1044 00:38:17,835 --> 00:38:19,295 would feel that that was a 1045 00:38:20,795 --> 00:38:22,735 a a terrible commentary on their education. 1046 00:38:23,355 --> 00:38:26,175 But if, you know, Shakespearean scholar said, 1047 00:38:26,474 --> 00:38:27,835 I've never heard of the second law of 1048 00:38:27,835 --> 00:38:28,335 thermodynamics. 1049 00:38:29,835 --> 00:38:30,989 You know, one of the most 1050 00:38:31,630 --> 00:38:33,329 arguably the most profound 1051 00:38:34,110 --> 00:38:35,809 of the laws of physics, 1052 00:38:36,670 --> 00:38:38,670 then they get away with that. They could 1053 00:38:38,670 --> 00:38:40,590 almost be proud. Like, oh, I never involved 1054 00:38:40,590 --> 00:38:43,329 myself before. Like like, second law of thermodynamics. 1055 00:38:43,949 --> 00:38:46,454 So I see see quantum physics now as 1056 00:38:46,454 --> 00:38:48,694 playing the same role as the second order 1057 00:38:48,694 --> 00:38:51,034 of thermodynamics did in previous generations. 1058 00:38:51,414 --> 00:38:54,135 It is something so central to our society 1059 00:38:54,135 --> 00:38:56,694 and to our technology and to but more 1060 00:38:56,694 --> 00:38:58,394 than that, to, understanding 1061 00:38:59,980 --> 00:39:02,220 what what is the nature of reality and 1062 00:39:02,220 --> 00:39:04,380 and human observation, and how do we fit 1063 00:39:04,380 --> 00:39:07,340 in to the universe as systems in in 1064 00:39:07,340 --> 00:39:10,300 its it's the universal material system that deep 1065 00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:12,914 down, it's got all this weird stuff going 1066 00:39:12,914 --> 00:39:15,094 on, and peep people need to know that. 1067 00:39:15,315 --> 00:39:17,155 I'd like to thank Paul Davies for talking 1068 00:39:17,155 --> 00:39:18,675 to me for this episode of the Physics 1069 00:39:18,675 --> 00:39:20,994 World Stories podcast. You can find out much 1070 00:39:20,994 --> 00:39:23,635 more about quantum mechanics from quantum origins to 1071 00:39:23,635 --> 00:39:24,535 quantum cosmology 1072 00:39:24,914 --> 00:39:27,315 in Paul Davies' new book, Quantum two point 1073 00:39:27,315 --> 00:39:30,150 o, the past, present, and future of quantum 1074 00:39:30,150 --> 00:39:32,150 physics. You'll also find a review of that 1075 00:39:32,150 --> 00:39:34,730 book by Physics World's editor, Matin Jirani, 1076 00:39:35,030 --> 00:39:37,110 in the opinion and review section of the 1077 00:39:37,110 --> 00:39:39,349 Physics World website. But, of course, we'll also 1078 00:39:39,349 --> 00:39:41,454 post a link to it from the podcast 1079 00:39:41,454 --> 00:39:43,775 pages. And, of course, there's plenty more quantum 1080 00:39:43,775 --> 00:39:45,934 science and everything else shaping the future of 1081 00:39:45,934 --> 00:39:48,815 physics over at physicsworld.com. 1082 00:39:48,815 --> 00:39:51,375 We'll be back next month for the final 1083 00:39:51,375 --> 00:39:54,094 episode of twenty twenty five, and thank you 1084 00:39:54,094 --> 00:39:55,394 very much for listening.