Hello, and welcome to the Physics World Stories
podcast.
I'm Andrew Glester. And back in 2022,
the European Space Agency
announced its first new recruits to the astronaut
program in thirteen years.
Among those new astronauts was Rosemarie Coogan, an
astrophysicist
born
in Northern Ireland.
Now deep into her training, Rosemarie and her
colleagues
are slated to go to space to the
International Space Station
between 2026
and 2030.
With that mission on the horizon
and a potential mission to the moon with
the Artemis missions in the future, I managed
to grab half an hour with Rosemarie among
her busy schedule of learning
Russian, going into the pool in Houston, Texas
that the astronauts use to train for space
walks when they are at the International Space
Station,
and everything else that is involved in her
training. And I began by asking her whether
this had always been something that she'd hoped
to do. I think I I started thinking,
oh, maybe I'll become an astronaut already when
I was absolutely teeny tiny. I can't even
remember really when the idea was kind of
when it first came to be. As long
as I can remember, I've always wanted to
be an astronaut. I mean, I was interested
in lots of other things. There's a lot
of cool jobs out there, a lot of
things that I think are are really important.
But, yeah, always growing up, I thought, yes.
Of course. Being an astronaut would be one
of the the best things I could do.
And it it it was always kind of
something in the back of my mind in
a way,
because I didn't really see the opportunity
exactly how that path would go. So I
really kind of occupied myself with following other
things that I love, studying
science, studying space.
And then,
I think I must have been 30
when the call for applications came out,
and it was just really lucky that it
was kind of the right time in my
career, the right time in my life.
And then the opportunity came up from ESA,
and I went for it. So, you know,
it's it's always in the back of your
mind. When you were thinking, I'm gonna do
astrophysics, was it sort of thinking maybe one
day there might be a call for ESA
astronauts? Or were you just thinking, do you
know what? Space. I'll do that.
If I'm being honest, I just I just
wanted to study space. You know, of course,
it'd be great to be an astronaut, but
particularly when I was making those decisions,
the profile of an astronaut was was a
bit narrower, we can say. You know, this
selection of ESA astronauts, we've really seen it
kind of broaden to to scientists rather than
people who are kind of necessarily pilots or
so.
So, really, I just thought, you know, I
would love to learn more about space. I'm
gonna go for that. And, of course, you
know, you always stay open to anything and
everything that can come your way on your
on your path. Yeah.
You are a physicist. Can you tell us
what you studied when you were studying physics?
Yeah. So I did my,
I did a master's degree at Durham University
in physics and astrophysics.
So it did have a little bit of
a slant on astrophysics,
but it was essentially a physics degree. And
in the final year or so, I thought
that's the kind of direction I want to
specialize in.
And then I went on to do, a
second masters and a PhD in more research.
So that was specializing just in astrophysics and
mainly looking at distant galaxy evolution.
So looking first at how you see galaxies
at very short wavelengths in gamma rays, very
energetic parts of galaxies,
and then later on for my PhD looking
at kind of how galaxies interact with each
other in different environments using all different telescopes
and different wavelengths. Yeah. What what did you
find?
Well, it's it's really interesting because, a galaxy
by itself,
we can say, with no other galaxies nearby,
creates stars often in a a very kind
of steady, predictable way. But when you get
lots of galaxies in a galaxy group or
a galaxy cluster, they start to interact with
each other, and that can really they can
interact with each other's gas, and that's what
makes stars. And you can get these kind
of star bursts, it's called.
So I found that fascinating.
Yeah. No. It's amazing, isn't it? Did you
like, if this hadn't come along, did you
have something else that you were gonna look
into afterwards? Or
It was something I was thinking about quite
heavy at the time. This this idea of
how to
perhaps combine what I was already doing, being
being a scientist,
with this other side of space. I almost
think now that there's the the research side
of space and then
the exploration side of space, which actually focuses
on much different types of science,
people physically going there. And I was thinking
about, particularly with ESA,
looking into if I could do research there,
if that could also expose me to the
mission control side of things,
the the telescopes themselves, the the missions behind
those.
Yeah. So I think there were lots of
really, really interesting pathways within space and
the the space sector. I sorry. I have
a question which might because because I'm a
lecturer in my, day job, and,
I was I had a meeting with one
of my students today, and she's doing her
research into
the portrayal of scientists
in science fiction with a view to how
that,
how society
sees
scientists. Right? Three science. Are you a science
fiction fan?
Yes. Okay. Very short time.
Okay. So she wanted me to ask you
as somebody who is, you know, inspiring
young people into
space and physics and and science.
Other people are characters from fiction
from science fiction perhaps that inspired you when
you were,
younger or now even? Oh, that is a
really good question.
I think
I wouldn't say there was a particular
character that in inspired me.
But I do love science fiction, and I
I find
it's it's kind of an interesting thing. I
think particularly in my role, and I I
think you've had some similar discussions if I've
understood,
some of your work as well about how
realistic science fiction is,
how that feeds into
our opinions on science and exploration and all
of these things.
And I tend to be of the side
where
I don't mind too much how realistic something
is. I actually find that just almost everything
I read in terms of science fiction, it
just makes you think about the possibility of
what could be. Know, even if it's not
in something that is not kind of possible
now or would only be possible if, you
know, a few small things were different. I
just find the whole getting lost in that
other world of possibilities, not necessarily aligning with
certain characters, but just
yeah. Those visions
are a great kind of So more reading
than watching science fiction? Or
Probably a bit of both. Yeah. I think
some of the things that have really grabbed
me have been particularly books.
But I I love a science fiction movie
just as anything else. Yeah.
Do you? Do you? Can you take books?
I mean, maybe you take a Kindle with
you or something to
to to space when you go.
I mean,
can you take books? Is it I I
mean, I think you can. Yes. But they're
heavy,
unfortunately. Per, you know, per book, they're heavy.
So I think a lot of the reading
material is electronic.
Yeah. It can be uploaded, actually. We have
some fantastic teams on the ground ahead of
crew support teams who upload material regularly for
astronauts, and that can be films or you
know, newspapers and books as well. So, yeah,
you can definitely read in space, but I
think
as much as I love the feel of
a real book,
in terms of yeah. You can maybe bring
you can maybe bring one or electronically, you
can,
yeah,
reach your heart sometimes.
Yeah. Would you would you read science fiction
on on like, if you're on the International
Space Station, do you think you'd, like, read
science fiction or
something else?
I I'm not the I'm not the kind
of person I think who gets kind of
too
spaced out. I think I could very happily
be in space and read about space at
the same time.
But I also love kind of classic novels,
things that are, you know, just stories of
people's lives,
and I think that could be a nice,
a nice change of scene. And I wonder
if
perhaps on the ISS as well because one
of the things is being quite isolated from
other people, whether really just kind of reading
some of those classic novels is maybe a
way to also feel as though you're connecting
with another side of things that you maybe
don't have on the ISS.
Yeah. I was wondering about that because it's
very,
well, I think I've heard heard you say
it's inside. Right? Space is mostly inside.
When you're on the ISS, yeah, it is
very much mostly inside. I think it's set
to show. You know, lucky enough to have
the opportunity to do an EVA.
Yeah. It is it's a completely closed environment,
isolated kind of physically in that sense. Of
course, with the technology have we have now,
it's it's possible to to call, even video
call down to family and friends.
But you are very much living and working
in this small environment with a a subset
of people.
Though so that sorry. I'll move on to
something else in a second, but there must
be some films that you don't want to
watch on the International Space Station. Right?
Probably.
I'd love to get some of my, colleagues'
opinions on that. I'm sure this is a
discussion
mission. Yeah. Yeah.
I'm
I'm thinking you don't wanna watch Gravity. I
think that's probably a no no. I think
probably snakes on a plane you don't wanna
watch as well. That's probably not something. But
that's true of all times. Looking Brian Curtin
very suspiciously.
Yeah.
Absolutely. Right. So is there any way
that your research that you've been doing is
related to your job as a as a
as an astronaut?
There are some,
astrophysics
experiments on the ISS.
But, really, what I think is very special
about the ISS is how much really broad
science it covers that has a very direct
impact on our lives on Earth.
And I would say in that sense that
my kind of previous role and the work
I was doing,
it feeds much more into the the skill
set that an astronaut needs to have, kind
of problem solving and perhaps that that approach
to to science rather than
physically needing to know the the details of
of astrophysics and galaxy evolution.
We had a really interesting few months during
basic training.
The first, thirteen months of our training was
it's called basic training, and it's something that
all all agencies have to get to make
sure that everyone has the the sort of
the an international syllabus.
A lot of it was learning about all
different types of sciences, perhaps for, you know,
one week astrophysics, one week
human biology, one week meteorology, one week climate
and earth science,
to give us this background,
to because we all come from completely different
backgrounds to make sure everyone has the same
level of understanding of what will actually be
the background of what we do on the
ISS.
So I thought that was a a really,
really nice thing to do. Because that's not
the sort of thing that gets reported on
as much, is it? That that sort of,
that learning you're doing as part of your
training. Yeah. I mean, of course, basic training
also, we had winter survival training and training
and water training survival,
firefighting,
centrifuge. And these are the sorts of things
that kind of really get picked up and
aborted because, you know, there's pictures of us
outside and doing things. But a lot of
our basic training was spent in the classroom,
yeah, which isn't kind of talked about as
much. No. No. It wouldn't be. Yeah. But
we're talking about it now, so it's fine.
So what why winter survival training? What what's
that about?
It's actually because,
when you come down from from space, from
a mission,
you have very much a a designated kind
of landing area. You know where you're you're
aiming for in your capsule.
But you can never guarantee that that's exactly
where you're going to land.
So kind of a very very cold environment,
being quite a difficult
climate, a difficult place to live, the idea
is that if you do end up landing
somewhere very hostile like that, and it takes
the the rescue teams, the teams who come
and meet you on grounds,
hours or maybe even days to come and
get you and your crew from the capsule.
You just need to be able to look
after yourselves, look after each other, and survive
them.
So it's really just the the practicalities of
coming back. And the the same for for
water survival. It's all about the the landings.
Okay. But there's I mean, there's the pool
as well. I just think that looks amazing.
Is it as amazing as it looks doing
that kind of pool training with the the
model ISS under the water? Yeah. It was
it was really, really special. I finished that,
just at the June
this year. I was in Houston at, Johnston
Space Center for seven months
doing that, EVA training. And it really was,
yeah. It is it is pretty magical because,
you know, you are underwater, and you have
you have a a team of divers who
who essentially adjust your buoyancy. So you're in
the the EMU suit, the, the suit that
you use to do an EVA outside the
station, what people think of as very typically
the the spacesuit.
And, of course, that's very heavy. So you
need to add a lot of float and
buoyancy to it to get that floating. That
means you're you're moving like you would in
microgravity.
And so there's this whole team of people
who are who are doing that, and the
end result really is that you are floating,
in what looks very much like space,
you know, learning really how to move around
the outside of the ISS,
practicing
installing things,
obviously, you know, keeping yourself and your teammates
safe, a lot of protocol around that. It's
really,
yeah, it's a really, really immersive experience.
How do the people in the water adjust
your buoyancy?
Yes. It's I mean, it's very it's very
simple in theory. They literally just put floats
onto you, kind of, you know you know,
yeah, pieces of, foam and and
and blocks of,
blocks that float and that, increase your your
buoyancy. And they have different weights, and they
can you can put them in your chest
and in your ankles.
So although in theory, it's kind of very
easy to put a float on somebody and
make them float, it's a very delicate art
underwater for the teams to constantly adjust your
buoyancy so that when you move body position,
you might go up and down in the
pool because you're moving around the space station.
To keep that consistent is
is, yeah, quite a thing. But in theory,
you know, it's just your your suit plus
the
plus the buoyancy plus the the floats. The
the astronauts who've done that and, obviously, they
haven't been to the ISS, do they say
that that's, you know, a good approximation of
it?
Yeah. There are there are some interesting differences.
So it's I think it's a very good
approximation of it. One of the big differences
is that although you're floating, you still have
gravity.
So if you turn upside down, the blood
will rush to your head.
So you don't have as much freedom about
choosing exactly what position you put your body
in. And a lot of the the the
trainers say, do think to yourself, when I
approach this worksite, when I install this item,
would you want to be like this, or,
actually, would you want to be kind of
upside down in space? So do think about
the the differences there.
And some parts are harder in the pool.
You know, moving against the water, kind of
that drag is more difficult.
But then, of course, when you're in space,
you have these these tethers and things that
just float about like crazy. And at least
in the water, they don't they float, but
they're not kind of absolute spaghetti,
kind of out of control. So there's there's
things that are easier and things that are
harder.
But, overall, a very good approximation. Really good
training.
Mhmm. Yeah. I'm jealous. I'm very, very jealous
of that. I don't want to go to
space, but I do want to get in
that pool. No. Yeah. Well, scared the screens.
No. I don't think so. I don't think
so. It's not for me. I'm I'm more
of a stay at home kinda guy. The
other thing which looks really amazing is the
those parabolic flights.
Right. Because some people just do that and
float around. Right? But you do that, and
you're actually doing experiments as you would be
in zero g or it is zero g.
Yeah. The the first,
the first few parabolas,
because, what you have on a parabolic flight
is many, many,
parabolas. So you have twenty two seconds of
this floating,
of this,
reduced gravity.
But between every twenty two seconds, the the
plane does another maneuver and you come back
down. So you get very short periods of
time for practice,
over the course of a a couple of
hours of flight. So the first few were
really focused on just kind of moving, understanding
that you don't wanna try and swim. That's
not gonna work. You have to kind of
gently push yourself off of objects, but only
gently because otherwise you'll be whizzing all over
the place.
And after that, yeah, it focused much more
on,
for example, kind of using using kind of
electric drills because you want to make sure
that you secure yourself properly so that you're
not spinning round and round and round. You
want the drill to be spinning round and
round and round, and you need to be
in one fixed place, which is easier said
than done.
We did a bit of kind of practicing
CPR because, again, you can't really push down
because you all just float up. You need
to secure your body.
And then we did a few experiments
in what's called the the glove box
where you, yeah, you have your hands inside
a glove box. It's a completely sealed environment
for either very sensitive experiments or things that
could be toxic if they're released. So, yeah,
we really practiced
the the practicalities
of of how different it is to do
all of those things in that environment.
So,
presumably, part of your training, and maybe you
already know this sort of stuff, but it's
to do with first aid and if people
are ill, then you'll have to look at
like, some what happens if somebody gets ill
on the international space station?
It depends on on what kind of illness
they have. I mean, we we all have,
we've all had the kind of a basic
course in the the changes that our body
is gonna undergo,
things like putting stitches in. If, you know,
you you knock your head on something, you
know, we're we're trained in kind of minor
things like that. I guess you'd call it
just first aid.
But one of the interesting things about the
the ISS is how much it has improved
telemedicine.
So, of course, on ground, we have amazing
doctors, really knowledgeable people.
And often, we will do a kind of
a medical exam with people on the ground.
So we have the equipment to show them
with cameras or with ultrasound if something's
not quite right.
But if it is something really serious, of
course, we don't have the the means to
treat that up in up in space, and
it would mean that we had to to
come down as a as a crew very,
very quickly.
And that's one of the reasons why the
selection
for an astronaut focuses quite a lot on
the medical side of things because you need
to be somebody who
just has a very small likelihood of becoming
seriously ill
in space because it is it is more
difficult to treat.
Okay. Yes. I'd never thought of that CPR
thing. That's quite a thing, isn't it, that
you would
so what do you do then? Do you
do you sort of I don't know. How
do you do that? How do you do
CPR on the ISS?
A kind of a very popular choice is,
so you have, obviously, the the person in
need of care.
We can call it on the floor for
the pharmacist office.
It's not quite right, is it? But Yeah.
On the floor kind of on a on
a bench. And you would turn yourself upside
down and put your feet on the ceiling.
So, obviously, it depends on what height you
are. If you're very, very short or very,
very tall, perhaps it's the the length isn't
gonna be quite right, and use your feet
to to push off against the ceiling and
then put your hands kind of vertically down
onto the chest.
Right. Okay. Well, hopefully, that's not gonna happen
when you go. So you don't need that.
So it's fine. But at least you'll know
what to do if it happens. That's the
thing. Right? So,
there there's another thing that you have to
learn, I assume, which is languages. Are you
any good at them?
I'm trying my very best. I mean, I'm
I'm not a a linguist by by training,
but I think I think it's an incredible
opportunity
to be able to, to be able to
learn different languages.
You so quickly realize kind of the doors
it opens to be able to speak with
people in their native language,
to to really show willing,
as well as,
obviously, the the need for it.
So, yeah, learning Russian is still part of
our syllabus.
Of course, Roscosmos is a is a big
partner in the ISS, and there's an agreement
that everybody on the space station will speak
both English and Russian.
And that's the case also for our Japanese
and Canadian
space agency,
colleagues.
So, yes, it's it's certainly a challenge, but
it's actually I mean, it's it's one of
the the real pleasures of the training so
far is just learning so many different things.
You know, some of them I might have
been a little bit familiar with beforehand, and
some of them are completely brand new. And
I absolutely love that, this kind of constant
challenge.
Yeah. It's amazing now. The one of the
things that
is changing, you mentioned this earlier,
is the inclusivity
within the space
sector. And your your intake in particular had
a a particular view to that. How important
is that
within space travel?
It's really important. I mean,
the the the kind of the differences of
you know diversity can mean so many different
things, right? You know it's
it's
and it really
I think the the focus of the selection
of Aesha in 2022
was
gender diversity
as one of the points, but also really
background diversity in terms of where you come
from, what your approach to thing is
approach to things is. And within a team,
I mean, we see already the the five
of us who are selected as as career
astronauties, so we've been training together very intensively.
And it's interesting because we have a lot
of things in common,
that are potentially kind of make us suitable
for the role, but
you already see actually people coming from different
jobs, be it kind of military or scientific
or medicine or engineering.
Everyone just does things in a slightly different
way and we can learn so much from
each other.
And,
you know, diversity generally, it just brings so
much to a team in terms of problem
solving.
And then, of course, you know, in terms
of inspiring the next generations, you know, making
sure that everybody,
you know, growing up now deciding what they
want to do with their with their careers,
knows that, you know, there aren't certain jobs
for certain small groups of people
who've come up this kind of very narrow
channel. There is not one way to to
come to something. I think that's a really
important thing
to
to talk about. But the the people who
are growing up now aren't going to be
able to be astronauts on the International Space
Station, are they? Because that's coming to the
end of life.
Yeah. The the International Space Station will be
coming to end its life, in 2030.
But that doesn't mean that we're not gonna
be in low Earth orbit anymore.
You know, it's gonna it's gonna be a
very different scene. You know, until now, it's
been really focused on space stations that are
built by governments and nations
like the International Space Station.
And it's gonna become very much kind of
commercialized. There's a lot of commercial companies now
who want to put a station into low
earth orbit because they, you know, they really
see the value in it.
And it's gonna be a complete shift at
that point about how these
commercial
companies
run their space stations, how ESA, for example,
gets involved with that. I very, you know,
very much will still be involved with low
Earth orbit, and there will be agreements made,
but it's a completely different way of doing
things. So
but, you know, there there still very much
will be astronauts in low Earth orbit. It's
just gonna be a a different way of
doing it. So when you,
came into the astronaut corps in 2022,
it was talked about that,
you might have a a mission or you
and your fellow
astronauts might have a mission to the International
Space Station from 2026
to 2030.
Now unless I'm very much mistaken, 2026
is is in a few months' time. Yes.
Yes. It is. And that is that is
still very much the the window that we're
looking at. So,
my one of my French colleagues, Sophie Ednaud,
will be going to the space station next
year. So she is in that 2026,
very exciting, kind of the the first of
us to be going up to space. So
that's,
that's great to see her. You know, she's
reporting back about all of her training as
she goes into these very mission specific trainings.
And, yes, for for the rest of us,
it will be between 2027
and 2030, and we'll go
probably one by one. And that was kind
of always what was anticipated.
Of course, there's a lot of moving pieces
right now. Maybe we will end up,
maybe the how it looks will be slightly
different. Maybe we won't end end up going
one by one. Maybe we'll end up going,
with other European astronauts, but that is all
very much to be seen. Why did she
go first? What's the the the selection for
that?
It's based on nationality,
essentially.
So, of course, ESA is,
22 member states,
and,
all of those member states contribute different things
to different programs. It's it's very much tied
in with how astronauts are selected. It's
obviously based on competencies, but also nationalities. And
then the mission assignments, the order of that
is very much a discussion between the director
general and the heads of each of those
nations. So it's,
yeah,
very much
way, way above my level.
Okay. I'm imagining you all now sitting in
a room having a coffee going, who's next?
Who's next? Is it? Well, I mean, luckily,
because, you know, because we all come from
different countries and, you know, it's, it's, it's
not something where we have to we have
to compare each other because
the the system is how it is. Yeah.
But, of course, you know, thinking about
who is next is a very exciting pastime.
But you also you don't wanna live your
your life or live your career kind of
saying, you know, who's gonna be next? When
will it be me? You really have to
to live in the moment, and that's something
that I think we're understanding
more and more. You know? The training is
fantastic.
What we're doing now is
yeah. We're we're really, really enjoying it, and
we cannot always kind of live for the
next thing. It's what we're working towards. And
when that moment happens for each of us
individually,
you know, that will be amazing. But
yeah. You know? I'm
I'm training now actually,
as somebody who will work in mission control
to talk to Sophie when she's on the
ISS.
So that is something that I'm really looking
forward to, supporting her and her mission. And,
you know, it really is a a team
activity. And when I go up, you know,
I'm looking forward to talking to my colleagues
back in the past. That's amazing. And you
say you're still training at the moment, but
you'll still be training throughout this period. Yeah?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Sophie going next year
is actually a very condensed timeline.
She is really, really, having to go through
these things quickly. The the minimum training,
is about two and a half years. So
since we started our training in 2023,
yeah, she has had the one of the
most condensed timelines possible, so there is absolutely
plenty for us to be training in,
between now and twenty, twenty thirty. Yeah. I'm
learning fly at the moment, actually, is my
kind of, my current Oh, wow.
Amazing.
How's that going?
Really interesting. Very different from my my previous
role. Really, yeah, really, really interesting to see
how much
you know, how you can know something one
moment on the ground, and then you get
into a plane, and there's a million different
things. You know? You're you're piloting. You're looking
for traffic. You're doing checklists and trying to
keep everything in your head. I can really
see how valuable it is actually to train
that,
operational side of things, you might say. Yeah.
Okay. I think you've got to go, but
can I just ask you one? Two two
more quick two more quick things. First one
is,
if you could go anywhere on a spacecraft,
literally anywhere, there's no would like, where would
you go? Would you go to one of
those distant galaxies that you were studying or
something else? I mean, if if we're talking
just kind of complete sheer fantasy,
I think, yes, I have often wondered. Because,
I mean, one of the things about looking
galaxies through telescopes is I'm very aware that
a lot of what I look at in
an image, I could not see with my
eyes because it's an it's a radio telescope
or infrared telescope or a gamma ray telescope,
you know, frequencies that I cannot see with
my eyes. So although I have this picture
of a galaxy,
I would I would love to know what
it would be like to be in space
and to actually
look at it.
And, you know, I I'm aware of kind
of all of these hugely kind of violent
eruptions happening within them. I think, well, how
much of that could be perceived when you
were there, I just I would find that
absolutely fascinating.
But, of course, you know, going to the
ISS, going to the moon, there was,
yeah, there was plenty of excitement there to
keep me to keep me busy and to
keep me,
looking forward to it. And so we haven't
had time to talk about going to the
moon, but maybe maybe what will happen is
when you are either selected or have been
to the moon, you'll come back and talk
to us then. Yes.
Please. That would be great.
Well, I'm sure, like me, you're looking forward
to that and will follow Rosemarie's
career as an astronaut
in the years to come. What a wonderful,
wonderful thing it is to hear from her
and know what goes into this astronaut journey.
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the
Physics World Stories podcast. We'll be back next
month with something else from this wonderful world
of physics,
and thank you very much for listening.
I'd also like to thank the European Space
Agency not only for helping to organize the
interview with Rosemarie Coogan, but for providing the
clips of the training on those parabolic flights
for use in this podcast.