1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,639 Welcome to the Becker's Healthcare podcast. I'm Chris 2 00:00:02,639 --> 00:00:04,319 Sosa, the copy chief here at Becker's, and 3 00:00:04,319 --> 00:00:05,919 I'm thrilled to be joined by doctor Eric 4 00:00:05,919 --> 00:00:07,779 Gantwerker, a pediatric otolaryngologist 5 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:10,559 in Northwell Health and associate professor at the 6 00:00:10,559 --> 00:00:12,639 Zucker School of Medicine. Eric, thank you for 7 00:00:12,639 --> 00:00:14,695 joining us today. Thanks so much for having 8 00:00:14,695 --> 00:00:15,195 me. 9 00:00:15,734 --> 00:00:17,894 Eric, you have your your hands in so 10 00:00:17,894 --> 00:00:19,654 many different buckets. You do so much in 11 00:00:19,654 --> 00:00:20,714 the health care space. 12 00:00:21,094 --> 00:00:22,934 But for those, in our audience who are 13 00:00:22,934 --> 00:00:24,695 maybe not familiar with you and your work, 14 00:00:24,695 --> 00:00:26,855 could you please introduce yourself and tell us 15 00:00:26,855 --> 00:00:28,314 a little bit more about your background? 16 00:00:28,949 --> 00:00:31,029 Absolutely. Thank you, Chris. So I'm Eric Gammwicker. 17 00:00:31,029 --> 00:00:33,829 I'm a practicing pediatric otolaryngologist in New York 18 00:00:33,829 --> 00:00:36,309 at at Northwell Health, and obviously teach at 19 00:00:36,309 --> 00:00:38,409 the medical school. And sort of my 20 00:00:38,869 --> 00:00:40,949 presence and my identity is sort of focused 21 00:00:40,949 --> 00:00:43,065 on really three different areas, and that's obviously 22 00:00:43,065 --> 00:00:44,924 being a a good clinician surgeon 23 00:00:45,225 --> 00:00:47,065 and taking care of kids especially with airway 24 00:00:47,065 --> 00:00:48,125 problems, tracheostomy, 25 00:00:48,585 --> 00:00:51,865 complex air digestive, and, complex sleep. And then 26 00:00:51,865 --> 00:00:53,625 I sort of live in the education world. 27 00:00:53,625 --> 00:00:55,225 You know, I have a master's in medical 28 00:00:55,225 --> 00:00:58,010 education, and my real focus is on professional 29 00:00:58,070 --> 00:01:00,870 development and creating the next generation of surgeon 30 00:01:00,870 --> 00:01:03,270 educators. And then I live in this technology 31 00:01:03,270 --> 00:01:05,609 world, especially with extended reality, 32 00:01:05,909 --> 00:01:09,030 like virtual reality, augmented reality, and also doing 33 00:01:09,030 --> 00:01:10,870 a lot of work in the artificial intelligence 34 00:01:10,870 --> 00:01:13,594 space as it intersects both clinical practice as 35 00:01:13,594 --> 00:01:14,415 well as education. 36 00:01:15,755 --> 00:01:17,135 Yeah. That's all very fascinating, 37 00:01:17,435 --> 00:01:19,034 Eric. I'm not sure we can cover all 38 00:01:19,034 --> 00:01:20,155 of it today, but I do wanna cover 39 00:01:20,155 --> 00:01:22,234 as much as possible. So let's just start 40 00:01:22,234 --> 00:01:23,915 with this. So what are your top priorities 41 00:01:23,915 --> 00:01:25,295 today in terms of pediatrics? 42 00:01:26,409 --> 00:01:28,010 Yeah. So, you know, I think there's a 43 00:01:28,010 --> 00:01:29,530 lot of stuff on the clinical side as 44 00:01:29,530 --> 00:01:31,530 well as the technology and education side. On 45 00:01:31,530 --> 00:01:34,170 the clinical side, obviously, you know, we're trying 46 00:01:34,170 --> 00:01:36,650 to just advance and practice in an era 47 00:01:36,650 --> 00:01:38,810 of technology. Right? And so I'm trying to 48 00:01:38,810 --> 00:01:41,129 teach the next generation how to leverage technology 49 00:01:41,129 --> 00:01:43,265 and then telling faculty how to teach the 50 00:01:43,265 --> 00:01:44,084 next generation 51 00:01:44,385 --> 00:01:46,625 with technology to try and integrate it into 52 00:01:46,625 --> 00:01:49,185 clinical practice. So that includes ambient listening and 53 00:01:49,185 --> 00:01:51,984 AI. That includes all the LLM and clinical 54 00:01:51,984 --> 00:01:53,984 decision making support that's gonna come with the 55 00:01:53,984 --> 00:01:56,020 integration of AI into health care. And I've 56 00:01:56,020 --> 00:01:57,540 started to dab a little bit into sort 57 00:01:57,540 --> 00:01:59,540 of the informatics world, and starting to do 58 00:01:59,540 --> 00:02:02,020 some some work there, especially as it integrates 59 00:02:02,020 --> 00:02:03,719 with technology and and AI. 60 00:02:04,020 --> 00:02:06,680 I think from an educational standpoint, I think 61 00:02:06,740 --> 00:02:09,319 just creating the next generation of educators, 62 00:02:09,794 --> 00:02:12,354 and even today's educators to understand that there's 63 00:02:12,354 --> 00:02:13,555 going to be a future of health care 64 00:02:13,555 --> 00:02:15,814 that's gonna be supported by technology. 65 00:02:16,194 --> 00:02:16,694 And 66 00:02:16,995 --> 00:02:17,734 trying to 67 00:02:18,194 --> 00:02:21,394 teach faculty to not focus on content, more 68 00:02:21,394 --> 00:02:23,094 on concept, and then how 69 00:02:23,610 --> 00:02:26,090 students can leverage technology in real time to 70 00:02:26,090 --> 00:02:28,250 access some of that more declarative knowledge, the 71 00:02:28,250 --> 00:02:30,090 stuff that the facts that people don't really 72 00:02:30,090 --> 00:02:31,209 need to know on a day to day 73 00:02:31,209 --> 00:02:34,030 basis, and focus more on that conceptual foundational 74 00:02:34,090 --> 00:02:35,150 model and practicing 75 00:02:36,635 --> 00:02:37,135 applying 76 00:02:37,754 --> 00:02:40,155 to novel problem solving. And then from a 77 00:02:40,155 --> 00:02:43,354 technology standpoint, obviously, trying to teach faculty how 78 00:02:43,354 --> 00:02:45,375 to use these new tools. And 79 00:02:45,675 --> 00:02:48,655 next generation of educators and surgeons and 80 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,439 students already know and already using these technologies, 81 00:02:51,439 --> 00:02:52,639 so they have to teach up a little 82 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:53,139 bit. 83 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:55,860 Eric, where do you find the most resistance 84 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:56,819 in terms of 85 00:02:57,439 --> 00:03:00,479 helping surgeons and and other physicians adapt to 86 00:03:00,479 --> 00:03:03,185 all this technology? And what is your best 87 00:03:03,344 --> 00:03:05,025 what's your best advice for helping to overcome 88 00:03:05,025 --> 00:03:05,525 that? 89 00:03:06,064 --> 00:03:07,585 Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of barriers. 90 00:03:07,585 --> 00:03:10,004 Obviously, you know, in medicine, we're very traditionalistic. 91 00:03:10,305 --> 00:03:12,145 And so there's a lot of people who 92 00:03:12,145 --> 00:03:13,985 say, well, you know, the next generation of 93 00:03:13,985 --> 00:03:14,485 educators 94 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,060 or the next generation of surgeons rather, 95 00:03:17,439 --> 00:03:18,500 are they just 96 00:03:18,879 --> 00:03:20,080 they need to learn the way that we 97 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:21,760 learned. Right? So they need to learn all 98 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,580 the different details and minutia and stuff, and 99 00:03:24,719 --> 00:03:26,719 they hearken back to times when everything was 100 00:03:26,719 --> 00:03:28,125 in a text book and not available to 101 00:03:28,125 --> 00:03:29,485 them in real time. And so I think 102 00:03:29,485 --> 00:03:31,264 there's a huge barrier to understand 103 00:03:32,044 --> 00:03:34,305 that the way that they teach is predicated 104 00:03:34,364 --> 00:03:36,144 on a on a antiquated 105 00:03:36,444 --> 00:03:38,384 model of how education was 106 00:03:38,685 --> 00:03:41,084 done before technology was enabled. If you think 107 00:03:41,084 --> 00:03:41,584 today's 108 00:03:42,209 --> 00:03:42,709 students, 109 00:03:43,009 --> 00:03:44,610 as as far as somebody who's starting medical 110 00:03:44,610 --> 00:03:46,530 school today, they've never known a world without 111 00:03:46,530 --> 00:03:48,289 technology. We're getting to the point where they've 112 00:03:48,289 --> 00:03:50,229 never known a world without tel cell phones. 113 00:03:50,689 --> 00:03:52,769 So, you know, just think about that generation 114 00:03:52,769 --> 00:03:53,969 and saying, oh, well, you need to read 115 00:03:53,969 --> 00:03:55,250 a book. Well, books are out of date 116 00:03:55,250 --> 00:03:56,444 by the time they're published. 117 00:03:56,925 --> 00:03:58,685 And so we have to think more, 118 00:03:59,165 --> 00:04:01,185 more creatively about how to 119 00:04:01,564 --> 00:04:03,965 get these, faculty to teach in a different 120 00:04:03,965 --> 00:04:06,125 way, and to understand that the next generation 121 00:04:06,125 --> 00:04:06,625 also 122 00:04:07,004 --> 00:04:10,305 of students are using multimedia, they're using technology, 123 00:04:10,759 --> 00:04:12,859 and they just don't learn the way that 124 00:04:12,919 --> 00:04:15,560 that other students learn. So I think there's 125 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,680 just a cultural barrier, I think. And again, 126 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,160 trying to get them to understand that students 127 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:22,519 don't learn the way that they learn. They 128 00:04:22,519 --> 00:04:24,759 have different tools. They're gonna have practice medicine 129 00:04:24,759 --> 00:04:25,725 in different way. 130 00:04:26,125 --> 00:04:27,725 You obviously have a lot of the Luddites, 131 00:04:27,725 --> 00:04:29,725 the people who are just anti technology, and 132 00:04:29,725 --> 00:04:31,245 think that, you know, AI is gonna come 133 00:04:31,245 --> 00:04:32,064 take their jobs. 134 00:04:32,685 --> 00:04:35,245 Those are hard people to overcome, because they're 135 00:04:35,245 --> 00:04:37,024 sort of set in their ways. But again, 136 00:04:37,084 --> 00:04:40,139 just showing them the tools that educators can 137 00:04:40,139 --> 00:04:42,079 have. You know, I do a lot of 138 00:04:42,539 --> 00:04:45,519 AI faculty development to understand how LLMs 139 00:04:45,899 --> 00:04:47,740 and some of the different softwares can help 140 00:04:47,740 --> 00:04:48,639 them educate, 141 00:04:49,019 --> 00:04:51,120 creating case based learning questions, 142 00:04:51,740 --> 00:04:52,240 doing, 143 00:04:53,064 --> 00:04:55,884 you know, more simulation based stuff using technology. 144 00:04:56,264 --> 00:04:57,785 And I think once they sort of see 145 00:04:57,785 --> 00:04:59,785 the tools and they get their hands dirty 146 00:04:59,785 --> 00:05:01,785 with the tools, it can overcome some of 147 00:05:01,785 --> 00:05:04,345 those barriers for people who are typically late 148 00:05:04,345 --> 00:05:04,845 adopters. 149 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:07,800 So, Eric, if you can paint a picture 150 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,040 for our audience a little bit here. So 151 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,379 when a student walks into your classroom 152 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:14,120 at the medical school, 153 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:15,580 what should they expect? 154 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:18,600 Yeah. So number one, they should expect not 155 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,300 to be talked at, but talked with. 156 00:05:20,774 --> 00:05:22,935 So again, I still ground everything in theory 157 00:05:22,935 --> 00:05:25,095 and bringing theory to practice, and everything we 158 00:05:25,095 --> 00:05:27,495 know about education and the cognitive science of 159 00:05:27,495 --> 00:05:29,254 learning is you need to be active in 160 00:05:29,254 --> 00:05:31,574 your learning. You can't be passive. And so 161 00:05:31,574 --> 00:05:33,415 I will never give a lecture. I don't 162 00:05:33,415 --> 00:05:35,290 even call it a lecture. All of my 163 00:05:35,290 --> 00:05:36,829 didactics are discussions, 164 00:05:37,290 --> 00:05:39,449 and I very much believe in the Socratic 165 00:05:39,449 --> 00:05:42,329 method, which again was not asking inane questions. 166 00:05:42,329 --> 00:05:45,209 It's trying to challenge people's knowledge, and trying 167 00:05:45,209 --> 00:05:47,129 to have them access that prior knowledge and 168 00:05:47,129 --> 00:05:50,329 apply it to novel context and integrating new 169 00:05:50,329 --> 00:05:52,464 knowledge. So one of the things you'll always 170 00:05:52,464 --> 00:05:54,384 expect with me is I will find out 171 00:05:54,384 --> 00:05:57,345 what you know. I will identify misconceptions, and 172 00:05:57,345 --> 00:05:59,605 I will target that lesson specifically 173 00:06:00,144 --> 00:06:01,824 to where you are and where you need 174 00:06:01,824 --> 00:06:03,685 to go, as opposed to just delivering 175 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,759 a lecture or pontificating based on where I 176 00:06:06,759 --> 00:06:08,759 think you should be. Because, again, we need 177 00:06:08,759 --> 00:06:10,600 to take people to the next step, and 178 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:12,680 if you are way below people's knowledge level 179 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,279 and skill level, you're gonna lose them. And 180 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:15,959 if you're way above, you're gonna lose them. 181 00:06:15,959 --> 00:06:17,399 So you need to have some kind of 182 00:06:17,399 --> 00:06:19,604 ability to access where they're at in their 183 00:06:19,604 --> 00:06:21,285 knowledge base and where they need to go. 184 00:06:21,285 --> 00:06:23,685 So my sessions are never the same. I 185 00:06:23,685 --> 00:06:26,485 never give the same discussion twice, because it's 186 00:06:26,485 --> 00:06:29,444 always student led. It's always having you critical 187 00:06:29,444 --> 00:06:29,944 think, 188 00:06:30,245 --> 00:06:30,745 and, 189 00:06:31,524 --> 00:06:34,185 I think trying to apply that knowledge immediately. 190 00:06:34,420 --> 00:06:36,660 So instead of just delivering knowledge without having 191 00:06:36,660 --> 00:06:38,500 you apply it, I have you immediately apply 192 00:06:38,500 --> 00:06:40,740 that knowledge into some kind of problem solving 193 00:06:40,740 --> 00:06:42,740 context so that you can integrate into your 194 00:06:42,740 --> 00:06:43,560 knowledge base. 195 00:06:44,900 --> 00:06:46,839 Eric, you mentioned that you've 196 00:06:47,194 --> 00:06:49,915 had plenty of experience in the VR and 197 00:06:49,915 --> 00:06:51,995 gaming space. I mean, what led you to 198 00:06:51,995 --> 00:06:52,814 that in particular? 199 00:06:53,595 --> 00:06:55,355 Yeah. I think my entry point really was 200 00:06:55,355 --> 00:06:57,754 through education. I was always very passionate about 201 00:06:57,754 --> 00:06:59,915 education, and my my father was a grade 202 00:06:59,915 --> 00:07:02,254 school teacher in in the sit, down in 203 00:07:02,519 --> 00:07:03,339 in Chicago, 204 00:07:04,039 --> 00:07:06,360 and a public school teacher rather. And so 205 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,519 I always loved education, but my dad wouldn't 206 00:07:08,519 --> 00:07:09,959 let me go into education, so instead I 207 00:07:09,959 --> 00:07:10,779 went to medicine. 208 00:07:11,479 --> 00:07:13,899 I followed my my brother's footsteps, and so 209 00:07:13,959 --> 00:07:16,039 I think when I got into the education 210 00:07:16,039 --> 00:07:18,300 space, and I started doing especially my masters, 211 00:07:19,045 --> 00:07:21,285 technology was really taking off, and XR was 212 00:07:21,285 --> 00:07:22,264 making a revival. 213 00:07:22,644 --> 00:07:25,605 And really, the technology was advancing, and I 214 00:07:25,605 --> 00:07:27,365 was able to sort of fine tune my 215 00:07:27,365 --> 00:07:28,425 educational masters 216 00:07:28,805 --> 00:07:31,464 focused on product development educational technology. 217 00:07:32,250 --> 00:07:32,689 And, 218 00:07:33,129 --> 00:07:34,970 these technologies were hitting at the same time. 219 00:07:34,970 --> 00:07:36,910 And so that sort of sparked that curiosity. 220 00:07:37,449 --> 00:07:39,050 And, you know, I got an opportunity to 221 00:07:39,050 --> 00:07:40,730 be a medical director for a video game 222 00:07:40,730 --> 00:07:42,990 startup that was using these to create experiential 223 00:07:43,050 --> 00:07:45,375 learning, and so I got a lot of 224 00:07:45,375 --> 00:07:48,175 product development start up entrepreneurial type spirit with 225 00:07:48,175 --> 00:07:50,334 that, and through that, I learned a lot 226 00:07:50,334 --> 00:07:52,914 more about how product design, technology, 227 00:07:53,214 --> 00:07:54,675 and all those different applications 228 00:07:55,134 --> 00:07:57,534 can be applied to medical education, surgical education. 229 00:07:57,534 --> 00:07:59,134 I think that's really what sort of sparked 230 00:07:59,134 --> 00:08:00,930 it. And then I sort of continued on 231 00:08:00,930 --> 00:08:03,250 with that passion and trying to integrate into 232 00:08:03,250 --> 00:08:04,229 everything I do. 233 00:08:05,329 --> 00:08:07,729 Switching gears here a little bit, Eric. So, 234 00:08:07,729 --> 00:08:08,949 certainly, as you mentioned, 235 00:08:09,569 --> 00:08:11,250 the example I love that you said, you 236 00:08:11,250 --> 00:08:11,910 know, when 237 00:08:12,654 --> 00:08:14,354 a textbook comes out, it's 238 00:08:14,814 --> 00:08:16,735 obsolete. The knowledge, you know, just doesn't last, 239 00:08:16,735 --> 00:08:18,675 you know, for very long because everything's changing. 240 00:08:19,214 --> 00:08:21,134 In terms of change, how do you anticipate 241 00:08:21,134 --> 00:08:22,654 your role is gonna change, and how is 242 00:08:22,654 --> 00:08:24,095 the role of your team gonna change over 243 00:08:24,095 --> 00:08:25,634 the next eighteen months or so? 244 00:08:26,389 --> 00:08:28,970 Yeah. I mean, everything is going so fast. 245 00:08:29,350 --> 00:08:31,110 You know, you it's impossible to keep up 246 00:08:31,110 --> 00:08:33,350 with everything that's going on. And I think 247 00:08:33,350 --> 00:08:34,950 as far as my role is concerned, you 248 00:08:34,950 --> 00:08:37,350 know, I'm continuing to try to figure out 249 00:08:37,350 --> 00:08:38,330 how I can integrate 250 00:08:39,024 --> 00:08:41,664 education technology into my everyday practice besides being 251 00:08:41,664 --> 00:08:42,725 a full time clinician. 252 00:08:43,184 --> 00:08:45,504 And so my role is ever evolving. Like 253 00:08:45,504 --> 00:08:47,184 I said, I'm getting involved a little bit 254 00:08:47,184 --> 00:08:49,985 into informatics and trying to integrate that into 255 00:08:49,985 --> 00:08:51,904 my experience. I'm doing a lot of research 256 00:08:51,904 --> 00:08:54,100 in extended reality. I'm doing a lot of 257 00:08:54,100 --> 00:08:56,360 faculty development around surgical education. 258 00:08:56,740 --> 00:08:59,059 And I think continuing my role on that 259 00:08:59,059 --> 00:09:00,580 at our institution as well as on a 260 00:09:00,580 --> 00:09:02,980 national international level is really what I'm hoping 261 00:09:02,980 --> 00:09:05,300 to achieve over the next eighteen months. And 262 00:09:05,300 --> 00:09:07,105 I think the other fact is is we 263 00:09:07,105 --> 00:09:09,424 have to understand that AI is not gonna 264 00:09:09,424 --> 00:09:11,745 be a fad. AI is real. It's gonna 265 00:09:11,745 --> 00:09:13,985 change the way that we practice medicine, and 266 00:09:13,985 --> 00:09:15,924 the tools that are getting created, 267 00:09:16,304 --> 00:09:17,824 you can sit by and say, oh, I'm 268 00:09:17,824 --> 00:09:19,264 not gonna use AI, and the tools are 269 00:09:19,264 --> 00:09:21,399 gonna be created without you. And so I 270 00:09:21,399 --> 00:09:23,000 think you need to be as a frontline 271 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,240 clinician understand how these tools are being integrated, 272 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,240 what's good and what's bad. Because again, people 273 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,240 are very overwhelmed when they get introduced to 274 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,799 these technologies, not totally understanding how they're being 275 00:09:31,799 --> 00:09:32,299 integrated, 276 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,600 and the fact that clinicians aren't always at 277 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:35,740 the frontline of integration. 278 00:09:36,115 --> 00:09:37,875 So as clinicians, we need to be at 279 00:09:37,875 --> 00:09:39,154 that front line. We need to be at 280 00:09:39,154 --> 00:09:40,595 the table, and we need to help guide 281 00:09:40,595 --> 00:09:42,115 and say, this is actually gonna be useful 282 00:09:42,115 --> 00:09:44,274 for us. And get away from that fear 283 00:09:44,274 --> 00:09:46,195 that your jobs are gonna be taken as 284 00:09:46,195 --> 00:09:48,274 opposed to understanding what the dyad of a 285 00:09:48,274 --> 00:09:50,915 clinician and technology are going to be over 286 00:09:50,915 --> 00:09:51,899 the next eighteen months. 287 00:09:52,779 --> 00:09:55,740 Eric, you mentioned that your projects have an 288 00:09:55,740 --> 00:09:56,800 international reach. 289 00:09:57,500 --> 00:09:59,100 How far are we talking about? Like, what 290 00:09:59,100 --> 00:10:01,340 what other countries and systems are are you 291 00:10:01,340 --> 00:10:03,660 connecting with to to work on creating the 292 00:10:03,660 --> 00:10:04,879 next generation of, 293 00:10:05,259 --> 00:10:06,160 surgeon educators? 294 00:10:06,754 --> 00:10:08,514 That's a great question. I've I've been very 295 00:10:08,514 --> 00:10:10,995 fortunate to be involved in several organizations at 296 00:10:10,995 --> 00:10:13,095 the international level and having lots of friends. 297 00:10:13,315 --> 00:10:14,514 I have a lot of friends who I 298 00:10:14,514 --> 00:10:16,774 went through as far as my master's program 299 00:10:16,834 --> 00:10:18,455 in Thailand, Australia, 300 00:10:19,399 --> 00:10:21,160 The UK, and I've been in all those 301 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,720 places trying to do education, and trying to 302 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,440 understand the local context, which is obviously very 303 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,440 different from The United States. And in many 304 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:29,879 ways, a lot of these other countries are 305 00:10:29,879 --> 00:10:32,379 much more advanced in their integration of technology 306 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:33,980 for a variety of different reasons. 307 00:10:34,345 --> 00:10:36,105 And so I've been very fortunate to talk 308 00:10:36,105 --> 00:10:38,424 to the Association for Surgeons and Training in 309 00:10:38,424 --> 00:10:39,945 The UK. I gave a talk at the 310 00:10:39,945 --> 00:10:43,304 Future of Surgery Conference on surgical education technology 311 00:10:43,304 --> 00:10:45,225 and gaming. That was a huge opportunity. I 312 00:10:45,225 --> 00:10:47,544 went to Australia and talked at Monash University, 313 00:10:47,544 --> 00:10:48,904 where one of my very, very good friends 314 00:10:48,904 --> 00:10:49,565 is Emeritus, 315 00:10:49,889 --> 00:10:51,570 and got opportunity to do some of that 316 00:10:51,570 --> 00:10:53,090 stuff. And a lot of my friends through 317 00:10:53,090 --> 00:10:56,050 the Harvard Macy Institute, who, again, are all 318 00:10:56,050 --> 00:10:56,870 over the world, 319 00:10:57,490 --> 00:10:59,570 have been very fortunate to engage with me 320 00:10:59,570 --> 00:11:00,870 in those in those discussions. 321 00:11:01,330 --> 00:11:04,075 And I just, I'm very passionate about education, 322 00:11:04,134 --> 00:11:05,735 as you can see in the application of 323 00:11:05,735 --> 00:11:08,375 technology, and finding like minded people across the 324 00:11:08,375 --> 00:11:09,995 world has been revival 325 00:11:10,534 --> 00:11:11,034 been 326 00:11:11,815 --> 00:11:14,054 identifying people across the world that share my 327 00:11:14,054 --> 00:11:17,750 passion has fostered and empowered me to continue 328 00:11:17,750 --> 00:11:19,910 on. And I'm also part of the, 329 00:11:21,990 --> 00:11:24,570 I'm also part of the International Association 330 00:11:24,950 --> 00:11:27,430 for Health Professions Education, formerly known as the 331 00:11:27,430 --> 00:11:30,085 Association for Medical Education Europe, and have been 332 00:11:30,085 --> 00:11:32,245 leading their surgery interest group special interest group. 333 00:11:32,245 --> 00:11:34,725 And so, again, trying to understand the context 334 00:11:34,725 --> 00:11:36,485 of surgery, what's new, and what's, 335 00:11:37,445 --> 00:11:39,304 amazing across surgical education 336 00:11:39,605 --> 00:11:41,625 across the world, not just in The US. 337 00:11:43,149 --> 00:11:45,309 Eric, all of that is very exciting. I 338 00:11:45,309 --> 00:11:46,529 can't believe you're you're 339 00:11:47,070 --> 00:11:48,509 working on so many things at one time. 340 00:11:48,509 --> 00:11:49,950 I don't know how you have the bandwidth, 341 00:11:49,950 --> 00:11:51,870 but certainly, it's a great thing that you 342 00:11:51,870 --> 00:11:52,370 do. 343 00:11:53,470 --> 00:11:55,389 Piggybacking off of that, this will be my 344 00:11:55,389 --> 00:11:57,629 last, may major question for you to do 345 00:11:57,629 --> 00:11:59,534 partner. So what else are you excited about 346 00:11:59,534 --> 00:12:00,894 right now, and what's making you a little 347 00:12:00,894 --> 00:12:02,274 bit nervous about pediatrics? 348 00:12:03,534 --> 00:12:06,334 Yeah. So, I mean, obviously, I'm excited about 349 00:12:06,334 --> 00:12:08,434 technology and where we're gonna go. 350 00:12:08,975 --> 00:12:11,694 What makes me nervous is several things. So 351 00:12:11,694 --> 00:12:12,274 I think 352 00:12:13,149 --> 00:12:14,370 the lack of regulation 353 00:12:14,830 --> 00:12:18,029 and understanding of the impact that artificial intelligence 354 00:12:18,029 --> 00:12:19,889 is gonna have on clinical practice 355 00:12:20,830 --> 00:12:22,830 makes me very nervous because we're already behind 356 00:12:22,830 --> 00:12:25,230 the eight ball. These technologies are advancing so 357 00:12:25,230 --> 00:12:25,730 fast, 358 00:12:26,075 --> 00:12:28,794 and these bodies, especially in healthcare, just aren't 359 00:12:28,794 --> 00:12:30,894 equipped to be able to to anticipate. 360 00:12:31,914 --> 00:12:34,475 They're much more reactive, and so you're way 361 00:12:34,475 --> 00:12:35,754 behind the eight ball. I gave a talk 362 00:12:35,754 --> 00:12:37,514 at a conference a few years back, a 363 00:12:37,514 --> 00:12:38,735 couple years back actually, 364 00:12:39,059 --> 00:12:41,620 and the room was full of editors in 365 00:12:41,620 --> 00:12:43,779 chiefs. And I asked as part of that 366 00:12:43,779 --> 00:12:45,620 talk, raise your hand if you have a 367 00:12:45,620 --> 00:12:47,240 plan to how to how to handle 368 00:12:47,620 --> 00:12:50,259 AI in scholarly work, or at least have 369 00:12:50,259 --> 00:12:52,634 a idea of what that you're talking about 370 00:12:52,634 --> 00:12:55,054 it. And zero people raised their hands. 371 00:12:55,514 --> 00:12:57,434 And at that moment, I turned to them, 372 00:12:57,434 --> 00:12:59,115 and I said, you better think about it 373 00:12:59,115 --> 00:13:01,115 now because this is yesterday. You you need 374 00:13:01,115 --> 00:13:03,835 to solve those problems now. And still, a 375 00:13:03,835 --> 00:13:06,495 lot of institute a lot of institutions and 376 00:13:06,929 --> 00:13:08,370 journals are still trying to figure out what 377 00:13:08,370 --> 00:13:09,970 their policy on AI is. How are they 378 00:13:09,970 --> 00:13:11,029 gonna prevent plagiarism? 379 00:13:11,409 --> 00:13:13,250 How are we gonna do narrative assessments and 380 00:13:13,250 --> 00:13:15,730 know that students haven't used AI? And obviously, 381 00:13:15,730 --> 00:13:17,649 we have AI detection software, but we have 382 00:13:17,649 --> 00:13:19,730 AI evasion software. And so it's a AR 383 00:13:19,730 --> 00:13:21,990 arms race that we may not be participating 384 00:13:22,129 --> 00:13:24,575 in. And so I think there's a lot 385 00:13:24,575 --> 00:13:27,455 of ethical, legal, and regulatory things that we 386 00:13:27,455 --> 00:13:30,014 should all be mindful of over the next 387 00:13:30,014 --> 00:13:32,595 several months, over the next several years rather. 388 00:13:32,735 --> 00:13:34,254 And we really need to get on the 389 00:13:34,254 --> 00:13:36,014 ball to try and figure out how we're 390 00:13:36,014 --> 00:13:37,154 going to guide 391 00:13:38,990 --> 00:13:39,490 ethical 392 00:13:40,190 --> 00:13:41,570 use of these tools. 393 00:13:43,070 --> 00:13:44,990 Eric, thank you for being so generous with 394 00:13:44,990 --> 00:13:46,909 all your time and your insights today. Absolutely 395 00:13:46,909 --> 00:13:48,929 cannot wait to share them with our audience. 396 00:13:49,470 --> 00:13:50,990 We appreciate you coming out with us, and 397 00:13:50,990 --> 00:13:52,429 we can look forward to connecting with you 398 00:13:52,429 --> 00:13:54,730 again soon, I hope. Awesome. Thanks so much, 399 00:13:54,730 --> 00:13:56,030 Chris. Thanks for having me.