You know, there's... The the body and the
mind is all 1 in the same. It's
been brought together. That's an ancient
division. It's an ancient division, but it also
was in in ancient times. It was also
1.
I mean, that was a a the large
discussion in in the conference world. Until classical
Greece. And then and then the Greek philosophies
made this distinction, and then then the enlightenment
all
I dog night. Singing 3 dozen.
That's 3 dog night. 1, you were saying
1. I know that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
And they're australian, So they fit right into
our
different cultures. Different cultures and music, and there's
an incredible project.
Where this scientific study, this group came out
with the conclusion after God knows how many
millions of dollars and how much research. Around
the world, Of course. That
cultures do music differently.
And that music apparently
is something that is
innate to to human nature. And
I'm reading this and I'm saying to myself,
why am I wasting my time? Exactly. Reading
this
discovery.
This is, like, yeah yeah. This is, like,
when Europeans quote unquote, discovered America. Right.
Right. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I'm sorry. You don't
count. We have discovered lab music.
Right. We have discovered music. And
what lot that?
Didn't... It it... I I know the article
you're referring to, and and I'm pretty sure
they were convinced that it it is kind
of a universal thing. Music. And and they
had to spend God knows how many hundreds
of thousands lu are searching this. Thank God.
They figured that out. And discovered that different
cultures
had different
interpretation... Different
interpretations.
I'm, you know, I'm I refuse to believe
it. Okay. As some... I think it's just
a gigantic waste of money. It's the conspiracy.
This is not true. Clearly.
We literally ever went to the moon and
the earth is fine. I'm pretty I do
sit now. No. You know, as a social
scientist. Alright? Just kidding my background
ant anthropology mind. Am I. Cultural apologies. I'm
sorry. We're not... We're not ignoring you.
Alright. We are. Who are you? If we
can
And I'm thinking Look, there's there's always merit
in scientifically
explaining something that is innate known to be
true. Right. Right looking into a deep Well.
A lot of times, it's not necessarily true
that everyone understands it. I the music thing
everybody got. You know? I mean, just just
groove baby.
You know, turn it up and groove,
and it's like groove ran out. Moving into
the tune and
unbelievable. And And then there's a part of
me because I've I've been involved in music
in the past. Yeah. Like you know. U.
Play guitar. This is in your Cd day.
Right? And then the... In the early days
when... Very cd. Miss misspelled use Oc ocd,
not like, not compact disc. No. No. Not
Cd.
I see. I thought it bet. Some of
couple years before Seating. Got I used to
IIII
was, you know,
earning a living, just singing in some very
Cd clubs in the village in New York.
I was in a few in those clubs
and I'd I I'd take a u bridge.
And I were referring to them as Cd.
I don't think they were that good.
Right.
Interesting. I wanna I I wanna hear more
about that, But also, I I asked who
you were and who who are you people?
Well, so we're talking about music.
We're talking
and that that speaks to me at
at various levels. Right. And then we're talking
about culture and the scientific
study that was very about culture.
When... Well, that's because we're talking about culture
right here because
oops,
your culture is showing.
And I'm Tom Peterson. And I'm dean foster.
And I'm To. Hey, Tori. We're here together.
We're all go a just stunned Go smack
to definitely Go.
About the fact that this article was written
with the scientific
discovery, the conclusion
that music is a universal human function and
that are very culture by culture. To give
them credit for
whenever credit they deserve. They,
I believe that was in the New York
times. Am I correct? Well, they reported on
it. I don't think they were in part
of the research. No No. I'm saying The
was. Yes. Yes. Yeah. No. No No. You...
If you have to report on something that
is probably something that everybody's going yeah
about, then you don't need to go into
great depth. So as a cultural list and
as... They did not. And as a musician,
I'm reading this, and I'm going, you know,
this wow is hitting me that This is
actually news. Right. And
and I'm thinking, like I said, all you
have to do is turn it up in
groove baby, and you know this in Innate.
Oh, And and I started while reading the
article, Did you groove? I did. Well, I
started thinking about all the times
in my in my culture work. Mh. That
I've had the the the
incredible pleasure and privilege
of turning it up and g
to the to the music of wherever I
was. Sure. And I'll be the first 1
up on The dance floor and just about
it anywhere. You know? Yeah I I can't
vouch for the... Yes. Yeah. Es can I
Yeah Got and but you gotta beat me
to it? So. Well, I... Remember 1 time,
Tom, when you and I, we were all
actually in Mexico. I was Oh, and this
fabulous band gets And they were doing a
really great combination of
indigenous music. Mh. From the local area,
and also some just well known groovy
Mexican tunes. Mh. And did I say groovy?
Ruby group Kinda know how old I am.
Well,
So I've been doing this for tally up
a peace sign do
great.
And
I wanted so to get... I I was
grieving and I wanted so to get up
and dance.
Except that this was after 2 tequila and
a Havana cigar. Right. Yeah. And I do
remember trying to get up out of a
chair, and I could not. You could
And and I I believe we offered that
perhaps that was okay. Right. I was I
do recall this. Yeah. Yeah. Because see wouldn't
ended well. I don't think. But I was
I was definitely grew. You were g in
the chair. Yeah. Yeah. You were just grew
to it in the chair. Well, you thought
you were. We we'll give you give you
expanding as long as you're proven, That's what's
important. I can't see I always couple the
tequila already myself, and therefore, my remembering
it
might be a little foggy. I recall this
all quite clearly because I was what 16,
something like that. So I was not ind
any to know. No. No. Emotional or anything.
Hughes at the Havana cigar. Of course. He
was just watching he he was just watching
smoking. He was just watching the grown ups
make fools of.
Know rolling his eyes regularly.
Leave Constantly. Because that's what you do. Mh.
And I I did it quite well. Yeah.
Yeah. At anyway, but it raises it raised
the point and it made me realize you
know that you don't need the lubricant. You
don't necessarily need the alcohol of the drugs
or whatever. Right. So to groove in... Did
you define the lubricant for?
And and that to this articles
intent I suppose. Mh.
I... You know, it made me realize also
that there were a lot of places and
situations that I've been in where. Music was
was...
It it it it wasn't affected by that
because drinking was not allowed.
Sure I remember getting up and dancing at
this fantastic wedding that I was invited to
in Cairo. Mh.
And
getting alcohol in Egypt, it it's not as
profoundly
illegal as it is in other parts in
the Middle East. Mh. You can. And there's
there's secular stores that that sell it. But
it's not common. Right? Right. And so here
I am at this wonderful wedding I was
invited to a attend.
And the music is incredible, and and and
there's tremendous dancing going on,
but there's no alcohol.
Right. And
when I got on the dance floor,
there were also no women.
Mh. Sure. Was just guys dancing
on the guy stage,
Mh. And women were dancing on the women's
stage. Mh.
And
this is speaking to a whole
different aspect of music,
you know, what is its purpose? Mh. I
mean, AAAA
lot of us in the west of thinking,
well, you know, I got to clubs, and
I wanna meet people. This is a way
to connect. This is a way to hook
up.
I'm looking for, you know, something more than
just AAA good time. I really wanna have
a good time with somebody. You know? Sure.
Well, this... That wasn't the purpose at all
at this wedding, and and that's not the
purpose of of getting up on the dance
floor in Cairo at all. Right. Right. Right.
It's it's made a completely different purpose. And
and
Tory didn't you experience something like that in
Jordan? I did. Yeah.
I'm curious to know, Dean at this wedding
in Cairo,
were were the men and women
visible to 1 another? Oh, yes. Okay. Well
yeah. Because in Jordan, sometimes the... Sometimes men
and women could see each other, and, you
know, they'd be in separate areas, and sometimes
they've being completely separate rooms that when be
visible the 1. 1 of the fascinating things
was that it was a very secular setting
In many ways. Mh.
And there wasn't anything... There was a religious
ceremony, but it was before the reception. And
once the reception started,
it was a combination of things that were
uniquely egyptian. Mh. But also very, very
western and familiar to a western nurse, such
as myself.
But still, when it came to getting up
on the dance for and g, Yeah. It
it was it was this way. And with
commonality between cultures, I mean, you know, dancing
at Weddings. Yeah. The dancing is different. The,
you know, the the rituals are are different,
but specifics. Your specifics
become different. Yeah. In the different. But they
do... But... Mean, that's the
similar... The guys when the girls come together,
it would have had a sexual implication, which
in public
in that culture. Mh is not allowed. Right.
Right. Right. Right. But that's totally allowed into
disco in the west. Right That's what it's
all about. A lot of it is before
though. Yeah Some degree at least. Yes. Yeah.
And it's also... It it also takes it
though within... I think that's an interesting point.
I think there's AAA
container
of the cultural impact
on it that that everything else can operate
within.
So that in in a situation where you
can have the mixing of the genders,
then you you have the potential for things
like we're talking about, like,
potential hook up or whatever you... That the
person might have. And that may be the
design in their mind. It may just be
out to have a good time whatever.
And that's all there. But that's not going
to be... That's like, you've already read the
rule book, and the rule book doesn't even
give us that that platform to, almost literally
doesn't give us that platform
to go ahead and and pursue this. So
if we're gonna pursue this, we're gonna pursue
it
I'm assuming, not being from that culture, but
I'm going to assume that basically you're looking
at it as the enjoyment of this.
And the celebration of whatever it is we're
we're we are celebrating. Well, it's not more
of that... But more than that,
I I guess there was a sexual element
to it. But it was different. It was,
like,
like, I I can't speak for the other
guys saw up on the stage, but we're
all kinda, like groove to the music together
as like this
bunch of guys. Yeah. Getting together and just
grew them to the music.
Right? And and it and it was very,
very kinda of macho
in a way. Sure.
There's a
I would think A cam. It was it
comes to... Almost it's almost like a locker
of room.
That's right. And where you you don't have
people who are,
necessarily and and honestly, there could be, but,
again, in that culture, you're probably not going
to have anything that's... Well, it's not gonna
be expressed overt. Right. Right. But there... So
there may be attractions, but they're going be
kept on a back burner somewhere. Right. It
it's... However it can't be made public. Exactly.
Right. Right. So... But, otherwise, it is... I
mean, in that the same thing honestly in
the west in in the United States, I
can say in locker rooms for many years,
that's the same rules.
It's the same rules, and it I could
say is that different now,
not that I'm hanging out in a lot
of locker rooms now. But the... But I
think a little bit But overall, it's not
really much different than that. But the musical
expression was different. Absolutely. And and in this
in locker rooms, you know what locker rooms
are filled with now.
They are filled with music.
Often, they are filled with music. And it
is not that uncommon for athletes to be
and team sports
to be dancing. Yeah. Exactly.
It So they 2 and following whatever game
they're playing. That at, you know, and I
think in sub cultures within within the Us
certainly. This has always been the case.
But the general
culture...
That was not the case. It was Right
distinctly different.
The experience I had in Cairo from the
experience that was generalized culture in the Us.
Sure. Right. But yeah. Definitely. There was in
some cultures, of course. This is what we
do. Mh. Yeah. Mh. Yeah. That... And that
was, like,
you know, with the realization, having read that
article also was the fact that news... What
is music's function? Is it is it to
to bring people together? Is it to
soothe the baby with a lull eye To
go to sleep. I tell all these it.
Right. At yeah. And all of these things
are human needs. Absolutely. Right? Very deep core.
Is? Is it a spiritual
Yes. Experience
chanting.
Singing and choir, listening to
to music that is
specifically designed to take you to a different
place. It can be, but I think that
can also be in the ear of the
listener.
I mean, it can be something that isn't
necessarily designed that way, and and it can
re... It can have that kind of reaction
out of an individual. I'm not talking about
a the general populace
about the kind of music. I think, yes,
there was music that is really designed
for a spiritual aspect.
But there is also
stuff that is, like, pop, and, pop that
that... And the pop culture of music
is... But it can be very moving, and
it can be incredibly moving to certain people,
and especially if it's the music that you
went through
like your teenage years with that was popular
at the tone. So does it bring back
certain memories staying that kind of thing Mh.
In people. And I... Then I think that
leap lends itself to the definition of spiritual.
Yeah. So you if you'll if you groove
to the music that you remember when you
were young,
and you do so at 60 and 70
and 80. Yeah. You kinda stay young.
You know, and and that's a purpose and
that's part of its purpose too. It brings
back there. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
It's... It it's... It... I mean, it's a
memory
preserve
in many ways because you will hear songs,
maybe something you haven't heard in quite a
while, and it will bring back thought
It's just a different cultures
prioritize
the the the purpose of music in different
ways. Mh. But but we all have these
human
experiences that are universal. Yes. But if we
come from a certain culture, it's expressed, I
think differently,
and
and the and its purpose,
it may be different. And it may be
a different priority of purpose.
And certain types of music
have been historically have been,
a limited
in their exposure
in certain cultures. Mh.
And in certain countries within those cultures or
org... Or areas within those cultures because
of control in in attempts to control
the way people do think. That would be
Example. Like... Well, I think in... What you
get into,
it certain music has looked at when when
Rock and roll first came around. Oh, there
was censorship and exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But there's...
But that's not
that's not an an outlier that is Happened.
There's... Yeah...
And especially more restricted,
in more restricted cultures. You're going to have
you get into things like, Nazi Germany. You
you couldn't play anything that wasn't German,
really? You had to be from a German,
composer
performer. Yep. Absolutely. And the same thing in
in in Russia. Well, we know that the
arts are always the first place where
any kind of avoid
tries to control the public. It's looked as
dangerous. Yeah. And and I think the the
the... Well, I think it's looked at that
way. It's... I think that is it really
becoming that way. I think the reason is
looked that way is because it get... It
is exactly what you're talking about. I think
it has that deep impact.
Onto to a spiritual aspect to it that
doesn't feel like you can control it.
And when you get into that, lack of
control and you're trying to be an author
authoritarian
regime. Yeah. Then then a lack of control
does not fit. Yeah.
Take take control of the arts. Absolutely. Yeah.
Deep in in your travels, are there... Have
there been times where you've seen
music
being
restricted? Have there other there other times you
can think of where
music was either being restricted and you saw
that happening and, kind know, felt that happening
or or times where, like, at the wedding
in Cairo where it was being expressed and
that made a particular impact in. You'd,
you know, I can't really
talk about
seeing being in places where it was restricted
so much.
It just that in certain places, certain kinds
of music was simply not popular? I don't...
Now is that really the result of the
fact that it was made
restricted in its availability? Yeah.
III...
Hard to tell. Yeah. Or was it simply
not resonating with that culture, so it was
not popular. Mh. You know,
I don't know. I remember though, I think
being in. Mh.
We travel there,
and,
you know, cuban
music is just it's breathtaking
magnificent.
In on so many levels. It is so
soul. So just...
Yes. And the the popular
version, you know,
A cuban jazz, for example Mh. Or or
popular cuban music.
But then you also have a rich classical
tradition.
In Cuba. And and the
the amount of music that's produced there is
like a national treasure. It's really their major
export. Oh, wow. And
because economically, they do struggle so much. Right?
But when it comes to music, it's spectacular.
And so you go to... You remember walking
down the streets in Havana and out of
every corner.
Was this magnificent music, and people were dancing
and you go into a park, and there's
a little group of people
playing guitars and and and drums and it's...
There it is. And yeah. And you're just
listening to this music. And
I remember being in a small town outside
of Havana and I don't recall the name
right now, and it was a a Sunday,
and there was music in the park.
And
we just happened to be there. Mh. And
the it started up,
and the music got
so
fantastic. Mh. Then, of course, I had to
get up on my feet. Oh, sure. And,
of course. And not you.
Yeah
And surely not. And and and Cheryl was
with me, my wife. And we're dancing and
everybody in town is dancing,
and the place is g and it's it's
fantastic. I'm having a spiritual experience. Really Sure.
Absolutely. And and and and I feel like
everyone is in the same space as I
have. That's really powerful. It was very powerful
until... Oh.
Until
a bunch of, like, I would say, 8
you 8 to 9 year old kids.
Joined in.
On on on the this... In the square.
Okay.
And joined in how. Dancing. Okay. Okay. And
so... So course sounds okay. So and watching
the kids, you know, we kinda, like, turned
and watch them.
And they were so
unbelievably
fantastic.
Cool. Okay. So incredible, and they weren't putting
on a show. This was not like that.
They they were not gonna, like, you know,
It was organic. It was totally organic. Yeah.
And everybody else was... They kicked up the
not... They kicked up the bar. Yeah. So
high.
And everybody else,
everybody else achieved it.
Really? Until I realized
I'm not.
I'm still I'm still g as this guy
who is this non cuban visitor
who's just having a good time. And... What
kind of dancing or... I mean, is it,
like, break dancing? No. This is was Salsa
This was Okay. This was Trying to. Blast.
You Classic. Crew... Classic cuban
popular music. I see. Okay. And
and I realized
I'm limited in my... In my moves.
I don't care. I don't know. I think
you got quite a replica repertoire of
of of dan's No. Not in Cuba. Not.
Not down there I id. I mean, I
mean, the incredible
interpretation of the rhythms was
amazing.
Blew me away. And these kids are, like,
9 years old, and everybody else is is
dancing
with them. Right. And turned to Sharon and
I said, I think I'm done now. Yeah.
Yeah. And it was spectacular. It was a
great experience on all wow. Really awesome. Very
nice. Yeah. I do like when that happens
in when you're dancing in a big group,
and that's suddenly a subgroup
comes out that is bringing they're dancing to
a whole new level. And everyone else kinda
of just stops and watch this because say
realize that. That okay. We can't, like, we
can't get to that level at all. So
we're just gonna appreciate what we're seeing. I
mean, they were... They were hearing
interpretations of the rhythms, which is so spectacular
anyway. And so complex. Mh. And they were
hearing it and dancing to those complexities Yeah.
In a way that. I mean, III could
not. And they probably... Been... Yeah, They might
have been dancing that basically they're
Precisely. Very cool for... Yeah. I I think
I had a
sort of similar type experience
in a completely different place. I'm thinking of
going into a dublin bar.
A a music bar,
and it was
a weekend night, so it was full and
it was happening.
And
what struck me there was the inter
of the place.
So there were... They were dancing to the
music of James Joyce.
Yes.
It was a little depressed. I dance answer
that college. It was a stream of consciousness.
Yeah.
Was ulysses.
Or or depending on how much they had
to drink stream of unconscious.
Yep. Fuck unconscious trying to read that.
But they was... Okay. There there were young
people. There were old people. There were It
had to be 3 and 4 generation... Did
you say this was Dublin? Dublin. Okay. There
they were they were little kids with grandma
on grandpa,
and it was classic
Irish music.
Music of the country, songs you knew that
that were popularized
songs you did not know. Mh,
that were very local.
The band was spectacular. Mh And
the the same sense, you know, that we
were all in this together. Yeah. And all,
really
experiencing something
together. Mh. And then at 1 point the
band stop, the dancing stop.
And a voice started
coming
across the room, and it was a crowded
room,
from the bar.
Okay. And this woman started singing
a Celtic song.
Capella.
Mh. She's not in the band. Right. Right.
Just someone at the bar. Yeah. The room
went silent.
And, you know, the Celtic mel are on
a particular scale. That's
haunting.
And
so silence the room,
and she's saying a ver 2 of this
ancient Celtic tune. Mh.
And
some voices joined in Yeah. Toward the end.
Right.
But a completely different experience. Yeah. This was
a chant This was something that called up
an ancient identity for most of the people
in the room Mh mh Mh.
And their reaction was was totally spiritual. Mh.
Sure.
Yeah.
That's a that's fascinating. That that would be
I... I've had similar experiences not in Dublin,
but I've had similar experiences in other ways,
but I know exactly what you're talking about
with that. I think that goes to the
spirituality that you're bringing up about in music,
and the ability to use it as a
transport
to that spirituality.
And and I also think it goes to
the the thing we were talking about with
the dancing with with when you're in a
group like that and you're dancing
it it... You may know who that person
is. You may never have seen them before
I have no clue what their name is,
but there is a connection.
Because of all all of these things that
we're talking about, which goes to
those that and in in that, although, again,
the specifics of
what it is in Dublin, what it is
in a in a in a, you know,
a a dance hall in Brooklyn. What it
is in it in our deep south or
in Cuba or wherever it happens to be,
it at at the root of it all
becomes that very human experience.
That ties into something that may be beyond
the human experience. And and. That was something
that you can't that you can't
achieve on your own, but you can achieve
it with, in a group with others.
Yeah. You... Right. And now some things you
can achieve right. Sure. And there's also an
individual aspect of this as well. That's a
The the mother who's, you know, singing a
lull to her baby, that's 1 on 1.
And she's she's accomplishing a purpose here.
But there's...
There are those cultures where it... It's much
more group focused.
And Mh. And I think in those cultures,
you get a lot more
group identity.
Now here's a here's another story. What happened
to me. When I was... The first time
I was in Italy,
I'm going back to college days. Mh And
I had no knowledge whatsoever of Opera, and
I had no knowledge of,
or very little exposure to any of the
great Italian opera. Mh. But I'm in Rome,
And
and it's a... The Roman And I'm it's
a summer,
and there that I just made that You
did. There's an upper going on at the
baths of Cara, which of these Roman ruins,
sort of on the outskirts of Rome, but
they're massive ruins.
And it's a nice open arena.
And so they use this as a backdrop.
They light it up, and they stage
opera.
There. Okay. And you have to realize that
the Benz of Cara now are surrounded by
basically,
public works 10. Mh. Okay. Okay. Mh. We're
working class people live. Mh. And they're right
there. Mh. Yeah. Like, they look out the
window and there's the benz of cara.
Well, I mean, they're all Italian, and there's
opera going on outside their windows. Yeah. And
they know all the words to all the
aria. Wonderful. Right? So
I'm sitting there. I don't know the words
of these aria.
But it was very accessible music. It was
P.
And
they're doing Lob m or, you know, some
of the most magnificent well known aria is
in the world.
And
it was it was a fabulous
experience for me because I was being exposed
to something that I had never heard before
as as a musical person. Yep. And
Of course, it was even more fabulous
because
people are leaning out their kitchen windows.
And singing along. Yeah.
Nice wow. Singing
along. Wonderful. Yeah. That's a... That... You know,
it's funny because when you mentioned
what it would basically look like and then
I've not been there, but at the my
mind, the,
pictures in my head, And then even with
the the more modern buildings
located so close. But when you light that
up and it gets evening and then gets
dark,
I'm already understanding a spiritual tool. I I
was thinking the same thing. Mh. And we
were kind of... They were singing along with
the with the with the singers and the
actors that were on stage, there was this.
Right. Everybody's able to take part. Yeah. Everyone
was taking part. Yeah. Mh Yeah. It was
like a single long. Right. But it Right.
You know, sit sitting around that
you know, Yeah. Playing new guitar as we've
done. And and and singing along to the
to the most popular songs, But in Italy,
it happens to be a Or. You can
kind of reach a sense of joy and
unity that transcend speech for. Right? Absolutely.
Absolutely. Yeah yeah. Wow. If only that happened
all around the world on some level. Come
by. Yeah. Right.
You know. He's still holding the peace side
up over there. By the way,
what to happened. Okay you gotta get marshmallows
here.
We have to fire at. Kinda where I
was going. Never mind. We try. You know,
Some what the funny thing is the the
that when you mentioned the thing about, you
know, Italy and singing and all of that.
We should talk about italy. We should we
should do do that in a episode. Maybe
1 coming up in in the in the
near future. I'm not gonna... Yeah. We haven't
Nice. So a lot of our episodes are
specific to certain cultures, but I don't think
we've done 1. Haven't... We've done no. A
little bits and pieces. Not a deep dive.
Right. Yeah. Right? And it's so rich. Oh,
my god. So... Okay. We'll do that. Yeah.
I... We'll we'll we'll wait in. So they
change Yeah. Yes. Go ahead. Okay. Maybe
maybe
polite. What is the
Please does he go ahead.
Please go ahead. Just think something to distract
them.
With attention here.
Well, what I was going to say is
that... Oh never mind. No. Get it. I'm
leaving
I think this was fun today with this,
and I and I... I don't know I
enjoyed it, and I was spiritually moved by
Dean.
And I don't believe that's ever happened before
or anything even close. Just recall out. Yeah.
No. I anyway. So, anyhow, thank you, Dean.
Thank you, Tom. And and thank you, To.
Thank you. And 1 of the employees Thank
you, Saga. Wait... So we talked about music,
and we talked about culture, and that's because
this show is
oops,
your culture is showing.
Smell
Before you roll off and disappear back into
your own cultures,
let me give you some information about something
we really want you to know and that's
how to get hold of us
Give us your questions. Your comments anything along
those lines. By email, it's
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culture show at gmail dot com and be
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Thanks.