- Okay, we are rolling.
And you're making banging noises
over there. For some reason,
- I'm keeping myself awake.
- I'm not sure. Wow.
- I'm sticking myself with a poker. Nice
- .
Well, here we are in the studio, and, and, um,
and first of all, we're, we're glad
to be back in the studio.
We're glad to be back recording again.
We've taken a little hiatus and we are back.
And, um, so, uh, anyway, that's, that's,
I'm Tom Peterson and
- Dean Foster. And
- We have Torin with us today, our producer.
Hello. Hey, we're all to, we're all in studio.
Sorry, I didn't mean to step on your, uh, hello there, Dean.
You didn't, I didn't. No. Oh, I tried to .
Um, all right.
Well, so we've been trying to figure out
what the heck we should talk about in this, in this podcast.
And, um, and I'm thinking we should talk about something
that is, um, currently notorious
the symbols of, well,
I'm not talking about an instrument in a band.
I'm talking about, uh, yeah. Thank you, . Thank you.
Simple section came to life.
- Actually, we can I get a range shot? We probably,
that we meet.
We'll need that from time to time. . Yeah.
- Yeah. Okay. I'm all over it.
I played percussion in high school, so I'm all over it.
Got a snare drum available. I, I do actually. Not
- Far from your Nice, how about a penny
whistle? Very nice .
- I don't, I'll find it though. Penny whistle. Remember her?
- I, I think I dated her in the seventh grade.
- In the seventh grade. It's always the seventh grade.
Interesting. That was a busy year for you.
- Oh, it was a very busy year.
- Yeah. Seventh grade after that was all downhill. Uh oh.
Well, um, yeah, no, it's not,
not symbols like you crash in an, in a band or an orchestra,
but, uh, symbols like, uh, symbology, like, um,
what Dan Brown has made a lot of money writing about. Oh,
- Well, you know, this is, there's a cultural piece to this,
- By the way, Mr. Brown, if you would like to, uh,
contact us, we will, we will put you on the podcast.
Probably. Um, , I'm sorry, Dean. There's
- A cultural piece to this.
Is there? That's amazing.
The culture has its symbols there,
and there are cultural symbols
for everything all around the world.
It's probably one of the most, uh, unique aspects
of just being human.
The humans have been creating symbols since,
since, since the dawn. Maybe even
- The dawn.
- Even the dawn might be it.
Even the words that you and I are using right now Yes.
Are symbols. They're just nothing but symbols. There's
- Nothing but symbols.
They lead to pictures, visualizations, uh, actions. Exactly.
- Things like that. Or the meaning of a word, you know, is,
is, is is the symbol of the meaning.
- You get, you have to - The word the symbol
of the, of its of its own. Meaning.
- The symbol means nothing at its own.
People have to give something
to it in order for it to mean something. Exactly.
- You know, this is semi - Well, we
summed that up quickly, didn't we? This is,
- We didn't, can I and everybody?
No, we just opened the door. Oh, we
- Could somebody shut the door.
It's killing the sound in here.
- This is what we, this is semiotics.
The, the whole, excuse me, a whole field
of linguistics, and I think
- You can take something for that.
Now, ,
- Some people would I pick - Local pharmacist
- and Well, you know,
there's an interesting VV very fascinating.
- We'll be the judge of that ,
- Uh, phenomenon.
I think it's, I think it's called semantic satiation.
Semantic. S satiation you
- Say, easy for you to say. And,
- And it proves that the word is merely a vehicle
for symbolizing the concept that the meaning stands
for of the word.
Like here's the, here's the phenomenon. Okay.
If you say a word over
and over and over and over and over again,
- It loses its meaning. It
- Loses its meaning, and you just hear the
sound of the word and the sound, and
- You can't even remember how to spell it. Right.
- And the word becomes very weird. Right. Right.
That's right. Like if I say weird, weird, weird, weird,
weird, weird, weird, weird.
This is semantic satiation.
- He does that again. Hit him with the poker. Okay.
My poker, yeah. It, but it
- A weird, it prove, it proves the fact
that the word is just the symbol.
Right. For the meaning behind the word.
- Right. Uhhuh . It's, yeah.
- So how - Does this, no one's arguing with you, .
- I'm not looking for an argument,
but if you want an argument,
- Stop fighting you and me outside.
He a oh look, is not good. .
Or maybe it's really good. We're not sure.
- So what's the cultural piece to this?
- I don't know. That's your game.
- Cultures use symbols all the time.
- Yeah. Okay.
So, so, so give me a, give me an idea of what you might use
a symbol for in a culture.
Why would a culture use a symbol? Well,
- Well, the, that, that,
- Because it seems like an indirect way of communicating.
- That's right. And so where are
the, where's the benefit of that?
- It has to be, I don't know, again, to be a benefit.
Think that's his job, isn't it? I think so.
- Okay. Many times what it does is it allows you
to say something or infer, well imply something.
Mm-Hmm. without actually having to say it.
Because actually saying it is gonna get you into big
sru, big trouble
- .
Thank you for interpreting.
- It's - A small part of the audience out there, .
- So if you can't say it directly, Uhhuh ,
you use a symbol that implies it.
- Hmm. Ah, - Right.
So, you know, one of the things that comes to mind,
and we've, we've had, we've discussed this in other,
other episodes, is hand gestures.
This is the most obvious symbol. Okay.
If you, if you don't say something, you, you can't, you,
I'm not responsible for having said it,
but I indicated it with, with a gesture.
Mm-Hmm, sure.
And we're all familiar with the
scatological ge hand gestures. Sure.
- Some are acceptable and some are far less
- Acceptable.
And the fact that the same gesture might have different
meanings in different cultures.
Right. And I think we discussed this in previous,
I think we have discuss Mm-Hmm.
. Yep. Well, the same thing.
So that, that's a, that's one of the reasons
to avoid association of guilt with something
that's going to get you in trouble.
- Right. - Okay. You know, so you say it, it's a code.
Yeah. It's a code.
Now the trouble with codes is that you have
to understand the code in order to be able
to interpret it the way the sender meant.
Right. So unless I'm also part of that information,
if I'm a member of the same tribe, if I'm a citizen
of the same country, if I'm on the same side of an issue
as you are, I probably know the code.
Mm-Hmm. . But if I'm not, I'm outside of that.
Yeah. And, and being outside of it is good for the insiders
'cause they're not gonna get in trouble with the outsiders.
Mm. But being on the, on the outside is also not so good
for the code, because it means
that not everybody understands it.
- I have no idea what side I'm on now. , .
Am I in, am I out? I think I'm outside.
I, I think you right now. Yes. Uh, am I, yeah. Okay.
. Well, let get that door open and let me back in.
There's a lot, there's, there's a coated message.
There's a lot that's not coded at all. .
I, I, I hate to say this,
but I think I actually followed you on that.
Yeah. For those of you listening, I, if I were you,
I'd rewind and and go back at it again. Uh, just
- And just listen again.
Yeah. And listen again
and listen again until all the words lose and mean, and then
- Speed it up, up so that dean sounds like a
chipmunk, if that's even better.
Okay. It'll look like we have a,
a billion listeners, so please go ahead.
. Listen, many times we don't Hold on. What just
- So, so many things are codes how we dress as a code.
Okay. How we wear our hair is a code hair.
And is remarkable for its coding.
Really for the oh, for the message that it sends.
The way, the way we choose to wear our hair hairstyles, it,
it's coated, uh, to indicate whether
or not you are of a certain group or Oh sure.
Or not of a certain group of the colors that we use to dress
with, the colors that we use to identify our,
our identity or association with a particular group.
Uhhuh . Mm-Hmm. , um,
throughout history.
Mm-Hmm. , we've got tons
and tons of different examples of this.
I mean, I think back to the, uh, what was it?
The War of the Roses in England
and the 14th century, 14th, 15th, hundreds, you had the war
of the roses, the white rose.
Right. And the red rose. Right.
And so everybody knows which sides you're on, you know?
Right. Mm-Hmm. symbols are like emotions.
Symbols are to society as to emotions are
to individuals.
They're shortcuts to
understanding something.
In other words, individual emotions through evolution
gave us the, uh, ability to
feel something in response
to a particular situation which allowed us action.
Mm-Hmm. to deal
with. And you can to deal with that,
- It becomes, you can group feel it at
that point, and you're part of that group. Right.
- And that, well, that's where culture comes in. Right.
Okay. Right. But even pre culture, just
as when we were Neanderthals Mm-Hmm.
the whole idea. But you
- Were a Neanderthal. Go ahead.
- I have, I have 6% Neanderthal.
- I, you, we you had to tell us that,
or we knew that. We know
- Pretty much.
And I think, I think I think the average is like four,
- 4%.
Is that right? Uh, well,
I wondered why you were always walking
around picking up berries
and things like that and eating them. Don't
- Short sell the Neanderthals.
- Well, I'm, I did I I actually shortell them some of my,
uh, some of my stock.
Yeah, you sold, it was, it was a
- Big deal. You sold it the wrong
- Time.
They're pretty stupid. You know,
they don't know the stock
exchange. Yeah, that's probably fine.
- Then it went up, right,
- .
That's right. It went up immediately. . Yep.
Smart move on my part. Yeah. Well done. Oh, well.
- Well, so emotions are, are shortcuts
to giving us information as to what
to do in a particular situation.
Mm-Hmm. instead of having to intellectually
try to figure out, oh, what's the best thing for me
to do given this situation?
Mm-Hmm. our emotions give us action. Mm-Hmm.
Now sometimes it, we act on our emotions
and it doesn't solve the problem.
It makes the problem worse. We is why we've developed
intelligence subsequent
to the evolutionary development of emotion.
Mm-Hmm. symbols do the same thing.
- Yeah. Yeah. - They are shortcuts to all of us
inside the tribe, identifying with the tribe
and everybody outside the tribe saying, whoops,
they're on the inside and I'm on the outside, or Right.
They're part of them and not part of me. Yeah.
- So if, let me see if I can take this in a direction
that goes to if, if it's a, if it's a very visible one,
not ones that you're trying to do as a subterfuge
of some kind to get away with something or,
or to overthrow something or anything like that, but,
but a very obvious form of symbolism,
then we could look at national flags. Yeah,
- Exactly.
That. There's a perfect example of a s of symbols. Right.
Okay. Yeah. And,
and the, you, let's take a look at the
current situation with Ukraine.
Okay. Right. The colors of the Ukrainian flag. Yellow and
- Blue, I - Think blue.
Yes. Right. It flew outta my mind
for a second. I was thinking of the fact that
- Should be a neanderthal part of his in the mind.
- Took over, we had just gone through, it went berries.
We, we just gone through, through Easter and Passover
and I, I went to a SA Passover Seder, um, last week.
And they had the egg, which is a symbol,
a very ancient symbol on the, of the, on the Passover plate.
Uhhuh of the rebirth of spring. Right.
Um, and, but the host
of the Seder died the Easter egg, the Ukrainian colors.
Mm. Ah, because it's a,
because it is a, a holiday of festival of freedom. Mm.
- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. - Alright.
So those colors, um, the blue is the sky,
it's the symbol for the sky.
And the yellow is the symbol of the sunflower. Oh.
Which grows all over the U Ukraine. Oh, okay.
And, um, these two forces, these two natural forces
create what is fundamentally, I think, part of the reason
for the current situation.
Because the Ukraine has always been the breadbasket
of Russia, if not the world, Uhhuh .
So it's been the farmland, not only sunflowers,
but the, but wheat and all sorts of things would be grown
and produced in Ukraine.
Mm-Hmm. . And without it,
because it's so far south geographically than Russia
so much further south than Russia.
Geographically, if you compare the production in the Ukraine
of food with the production of, of food in Russia
to the north, it, it, it,
it vastly overwhelms the Russian numbers.
Russians have been basically surviving on Ukrainian food,
on Ukrainian sunflowers, on Ukrainian wheat.
Yeah. And so the colors that are used in the symbols
of Ukraine represent this.
Hmm. And if you understand the power of these symbols,
you know, Ukrainians under,
for them the sunflower is incredibly powerful symbol.
Mm-Hmm. , um, you know,
you look at the symbols in Russia, uh,
a powerful symbol in Russia that I think is iconic
to understanding Russian culture is the matrika doll.
The doll within the doll. Within the doll. Within the doll.
Right. Right. Nesting doll. The nesting doll. Mm-Hmm.
. That's right. And so you,
why is this iconically symbolic of Russian culture?
Because I think one of the essentials things you need
to understand about Russian culture I is, is
that there's always this superficial outer shell,
and it hides an inner shell, which hides an even fruit,
a deeper inner shell, which hide, which hides an,
and the, the, the baby
inside the deepest part is very, very fragile.
Mm-Hmm. And very, very weak. Mm-Hmm.
And needs to be protected Mm-Hmm.
By these levels, layers and layers
and layers that keep going to the out, out and out and out.
Sure. So the blustery over the top, super emotional,
um, bombastic, rhetorical outside.
- Yeah. - The threatening outside the,
the, the, the use of the weapons, the,
the constant threats. Mm-Hmm.
- . Yeah. - This is all an out
an exterior cover
- Hmm.
To protect that inner, inner creature body. That's
- Whatever, that's what's driving it. Yeah. Yeah.
- Right. - Huh.
- You, we look at Russia. Russia is a very large country.
There's gotta be, as there is in other large countries in
the United States, China, others,
there's gonna be differences across there.
Moscow is a, is is a far more western, uh,
city than much of the rest of the country,
- Geographically. It is, yes.
- Yeah. And, um, so is it d do and,
and I, I don't know, maybe it's not easy to know this
because it is still Russia and it's somewhat secretive,
but across the country, is there a reason to believe
that there's a, is there a disconnect from the, the forces
that are running things now and making these decisions?
Is there a, is there, uh, that is,
and is it symbolized in any way in, in that,
or is that just another, um, is that just another enigma
of Russia that we really don't know much about?
- Well, you know, vast, vast lands within Russia are
super underpopulated.
Mm-Hmm. And we're looking at
tundra, we're looking at Mm-Hmm.
You know, um, a a a lot of just vast land area,
but not too many people.
Right. And then there are other areas
where there's lots and lots of people.
Right. Yes. Right. Okay.
Um, I think your point is well taken, Tom, you,
you do have Moscow, um, trying very hard
to keep this vast empire within an empire.
Mm-Hmm. , there's the Mareska doll again. Yeah.
Uh, even within Russia as a nation state today,
it's Ru Moscow still has difficulty controlling
every part of that landmass.
And the, the, the fear always is that
somebody somewhere is gonna break away from our control.
Mm-Hmm. . And so we've gotta, we've really
gotta maintain a lot of control.
And therefore it's, it's a natural crucible for autocracy.
Mm-Hmm. recognize that, that never,
ever in the history of Russia have there been any moments
of democracy except very short-lived sparks here and there.
Hmm. Just before, during, and just after the revolution.
Mm-Hmm. And the Civil War. Mm-Hmm. .
But, but it's inconsequential really,
because they went straight from feudalism and cism Mm-Hmm.
. Right, right. To to, to basically communism.
Right. To basically gangsterism,
which is what we have today.
Right? Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. So there's no tradition
whatsoever for, for any kind,
for holding anything together other than OO other than
steely autocracy. Mm-Hmm. .
- Right. - So, to your point Y yes.
Moscow is fearful that it will al that it will lose control
of what's going on within its realms.
Mm-Hmm. and sees the current situation as,
as proof the failure of the Soviets, the collapse
of the Soviets as proof that without this kind
of steely autocracy, they are in fact going to collapse.
Hmm. And, and,
and the evidence of that for them is
that the West is out there circling around, ready
to take advantage of any situation where they can, uh,
they can undermine the authority
of the Russians in that re in the region.
Mm-Hmm. and Ukraine represents that. Mm-Hmm.
, because the majority
of the people in the Ukraine voted, voted
to be part of the west. Right? Mm-Hmm. .
- Right, - Right. So Russia can simply not allow that.
Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.
, um, you know, the symbols of, of, of the,
of Czars Russia was the two-headed eagle.
And still, it's still on the Russian,
it's still the Russian, uh, state seal, I think.
Hmm. Okay. So the eagle is always looking east to make sure
that everybody there is under the control of Moscow.
Yeah. And also west Yeah.
To make sure that the west doesn't do anything to, to,
to stop us from maintaining these, the hard grip
that we need to have over the lands, over which we should
over the lands, over which in which there are Russians.
- Sure. Alright. So
- Symbols, A double-headed eagle. Right.
- Double-headed eagle. There we go. Yeah. Which co
- Code of arms of Russia - Coat of arms of Russia.
- Yeah. Okay. Thank you. The producer finally did something.
You're welcome. That's good. But
- It's interesting now that the, the symbol, this idea
of symbols during this time of war with Ukraine Mm-Hmm.
is, is becoming a code, this
becoming coded language for which side you are on.
- Hmm. Right. So what are some of those symbols
that we're seeing that are, um,
showing us both sides, I guess?
- Well, you know, I think about both sides, I think.
Yeah. The, the Russian Z
- Yeah. Yeah. I've seen
- That.
Where does that come from? I don't under,
I've never seen the etymology of
- It.
I don't know. I'm not, I'm not sure. I mean,
I can take a look, but I remember
hearing it was sort of unknown.
- Right. It's not like a World War Z reference. Is it?
It could be , it could be,
it could be a theory . Yeah.
- I'll take a look. I think it is not entirely
- Sure. Okay.
- So that's being used to symbolize support for the war.
- Right, right, right.
- But the need for coded symbol symbolism,
if you are against the war, particularly in Russia Right.
Is absolutely powerful.
So I've been hearing about different codes
that have developed to indicate by Russians
who do not support the war, that they are not, uh, you know,
uh, of supporting the, the supporting Moscow
or Putin I should say, but they're against the war.
Um, Russians are very proud
of the contributions they've made to, to the world.
And Russian culture has been, um, in many aspects
of Russian cultural literature, the arts particularly,
and I think of ballet, become symbols of Russian, uh,
contributions to the world.
Sure. They're very proud of the ballet.
- Sure. Yeah. They should
- Be Tchaikovsky's Great ballet.
Mm-Hmm. Swan Lake. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.
is used
and has been used historically in Russia,
- But I remember hearing that - Yeah.
In, in many different ways.
Politically, it became used as a symbol, as a tool
for the fact that the government,
whenever one of the leaders died, and the, and,
and the decision makers in Moscow didn't know
who the next leader was gonna be.
Right. They played Swan Lake on state media.
And so every time you heard Swan Lake being played, it meant
that government catastrophe has happened.
, somebody, uh, our, our, our great leader has died,
and we're awaiting the, the next, the next news as
to who's gonna be running the country.
Ah. And so the ballet
and the symbol of the ballet dancer has been used
by those against the war as a statement
that the government is in trouble.
Okay. And we're, and we're going to have to change
that government, or that government needs to change.
Ah, okay. Or will change.
- So is it being used now? I
- Believe so.
I think the pro protestors have been doing that. Okay.
Now, because of the, uh, very punitive new laws
that have come down where you, you're not supposed
to protest the war.
Right. In Russia. Right.
Um, those who are protesting the war are getting rounded
up and, and jailed.
Mm-Hmm. . Yes. So I,
I think I was reading about protestors who instead
of showing up, um, with protest signs,
no war, they were showing up with signs that said no,
first letter of the Russian word for war.
And then the remaining letters indicated by an asterisk.
- Oh. - Uh, okay.
- It, the remaining relic letters. Yeah.
- Right. Okay. I heard this. Yeah. On a podcast.
There was a podcast from NPR,
rough translation. That was, that's
- Right.
That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, of course, you know, the,
the Russian security forces are looking, so,
so this is an education for them.
Mm-Hmm. And then they go, they have
to reinterpret whatever the code is as to whether
or not it's worthy of an arrest.
So they're learning whatever the new code is.
And the trick is, of course, to try to learn
that code faster than anybody else does.
Right. And before it becomes,
before it becomes, then you move on, then you,
you force them to move on.
But anyway, and every culture's got its symbols.
I mean, torn, you were in Hong Kong Yeah. Um,
- A few years ago. A
- Few years ago.
During the, during the, the, the, the strikes, the
- Protests, yeah.
The protest that were happening there. Yeah.
When you were talking about colors as symbols,
I was remembering my friend who I was visiting
who would live there for many years, was saying how, um, red
as symbolized pro Beijing, which makes sense.
Um, yellow symbolized pro, um, democracy
and blue represent pro-police.
So it was similar to pro-China with the authorities.
- And didn't the protests initially start, um,
with the symbol of the umbrella?
- Yes. Right. And yeah,
it was the umbrella movement. Mm-Hmm.
- . Right. And why was the
umbrella chosen as this?
I don't remember as this symbol . Yeah.
- But I could look it up. - Please do .
- I'll . But yes, it was, yeah, that's right. Yeah.
And so those are very powerful symbols. Symbols.
And like you're talking about folks,
when they saw the certain colors, and it would be
outside different restaurants and be, and people's clothes,
and they knew, okay, these are folks
that I can relate to. And,
- But, but let me just jump in for a second.
Or I'm wondering, I'm, I'm wondering if
with the symbols like that, then depending on where the,
where we, where it goes, where everybody,
where everything goes, what, what
- Happens?
You mean how this conflict works out with Ukraine,
- This conflict or any conflict over in the past, ah, with,
depending on where it ends up.
And, and of course that's an ongoing conflict
with Hong Kong also,
and where, so where it, where it ends up, those symbols
can at some point become iconic
and become part of the culture in some ways, right?
- Yes, absolutely. And then they become
institutionalized as Yeah.
Usually the victor's symbols.
- Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.
That, that they would have those as, as something that,
and I'm wondering if it's a failure if those symbols just go
by the wayside and, and
or get put over here in the, in the file
that says symbols not to be used in the near future.
- Absolutely. These usually become taboo. Yeah. Or
- Get outlawed overnight.
The swastika. Yeah. Ly outlawed.
- The swastika was nothing more than just a,
an ancient Hindu symbol. Right,
- Right, right.
It's been used before, of course.
- Sure. And then it became corrupted by the Nazis.
By the Nazis. Right. And then it became
verboten. I mean, you can't do
- It. No, you can't.
- Absolutely not. So the symbol itself has no meaning
whatsoever, but it's the meaning
that the symbol represents what
- You apply to it. Precisely.
- Yes. And that's what culture does.
Culture says, I'm gonna give this symbol a meaning. Yes.
And that's where it suddenly becomes very, very powerful.
- Sure. - So, I remember now, my friend did tell me this,
so umbrellas were popular in the protest
because they could be used to protect,
people could protect themselves against tear
gas being fired by the police.
- Ah. - They served a purpose,
and then they can assemble from that.
Right. Very interesting. Um, the z by the way, in Russia,
so it, there are theories that's not clear,
but there were Zs put on the Russian military tanks
to avoid friendly fire.
And so it's believed that it just came.
And then it just really, the Z
- Stood out.
So the Z was saying just it's us, not them. Mm-Hmm.
. And so leave us alone. Why wouldn't
- They use this R
- So again, purpose, I dunno, ,
but it seemed to serve a purpose.
And so then it just became a symbol for Yeah,
- That's a good question.
I I it may have meant something else also within all of that
- Could Yeah.
That it seems to be unclear. Yeah.
- Yeah. We don't know at this stage. Yeah. Huh. Well,
- Why are we talking about symbols and culture?
- Why, - Because, oops,
- Your culture's showing.
Yeah. We decided to wait till the end to do it this time.
forgot about that. Oh, wow.
You know what, you know what also,
- Oops.
Something else is showing too. Yeah.
- Forget, there certainly is a lot a lot's
showing something sticking outta here.
We just sue into the conversation. Oh, man.
- Well, well, we are of a certain generation
and we are of at least, at least I out Well speak
- For yourself of Yeah, - Exactly.
And, you know, what were the cultural symbols in our gen?
Because in my generation, I can vividly remember the, the,
the, the, the confusion
and the, um, intensity of the sixties.
- Well, there's one major one that was there
- And there, and that was driven by symbols.
- Yeah. There was a lot. But there was one
that was the predominant one.
There was one Which one was the peace sign? The peace sign.
Yeah. And that, I mean, that was the one that was, that was,
I think was the dominant one. And, and
- The peace sign, by the way was what?
Because it's not universal.
- What do you mean with what in
- The us?
What was the peace sign?
- Oh, - Was it a hand gesture? Was it a
- No?
Well, yeah, it was a hand gesture.
And it was a, it was a drawn circle with a,
um, a
- A disarmament si symbol.
- Yeah. But it's a lot of discussion.
Again, you go back to, we're talking about the z there's a
lot of discussion on where that, where
that sign inside the circle.
Mm-Hmm. comes from some people.
It's the foot of a dove.
Um, some people, oh, there's,
there's a few different things.
It really doesn't matter. All it matters
is what you were talking about before.
What it means now. Does it mean that's a symbol? Yes. Yeah.
What does it mean? Because a lot of people,
when we were growing up, there was a lot of people
that sign meant, uh, things they did not like.
Sure. They were, they were afraid of Mm-Hmm. .
And that they did not like them.
And then you can look back at it in kind of the quaint way
of looking at the sixties and the early seventies
and think it's a, isn't that cool?
But it really, honestly, at that time, it was
so far from just being cool.
Sure. It meant a lot. And it meant a lot on both sides.
Sure. Um, and it was a lot of broad, a lot of pushback on
that and a lot of dislike Sure.
About the peace sign as well.
I and the, and the hand figure of the,
of the right V two fingers up towards other people.
Towards, towards you. Yes.
- It has to be, it has to be palm out
- Saying two. Yes.
- Palm in is a whole, well, in - England that
- Was a problem - In Britain.
Yes. In, in the United States, it would, nobody cared.
But in, in here it was. But it was that, anyway, two beers.
That is the peace sign. It's, it's the, uh, it's Right.
But it should be palm out. It's like showing the number two
like that with your palm toward whoever Churchill's
- Showing V for victory.
Right? Yes. It was from Churchill.
- Yes. 'cause if he did it the other way, it was, uh,
which he probably did to Hitler also.
. Right. And if you don't know what that means,
that means you haven't gone through all of our podcasts back
to a prior episode.
You've gotta go back to the beginning
- With the hand - Gestures and,
and check out the hand gestures.
Here's a hint that has nothing to do
with the Japanese toilet.
Okay? Mm-Hmm. There you go.
- .
- But as far as we know, as far as we know, , um,
- Well, I remember as going through, um,
hearing it back then in the sixties.
Yeah. Um, the peace sign, the disarmament sign
that I think you were referring to,
which looks like the, the dove's foot.
- Yes. The, the mm-Hmm.
The dove's foot pointing
down, I guess you could say. Mm-Hmm.
- Yeah. That was, I I think originally used in Britain back
in the fifties, even before the sixties.
Yeah. Uh, during the beginnings of the disarmament movement,
Uhhuh and Bertrand Russell was actually one
of the, uh, leaders of that
- Movement.
Disarmament, you're talking like missiles and things like
- That. Yes. Nuclear
- Disarm started.
Yeah. So it started to build up after,
after World War ii, right? Mm-Hmm.
- . Right. And so, um, the,
the ver the vertical sign was the missile, the vertical.
Right. Okay. And then, uh,
it was basically an an an Anto D mm-Hmm.
symbol superimposed over the missile.
- Okay. And - Okay. Yeah. So that, that's what, anyway,
- That's, that's a possibility
to what's an, an D What is that?
- Anto d you know, in Europe, the road signs
where you can't enter, it's a circle.
Do not enter, do not enter diagonal slash
Gotcha. Do not enter, except it
- Doesn't go all the way across. And I
- Use the French version.
- Wow. What a show off.
You know what part problem, you know, what we're, we,
we're gonna have to talk more about this. Can
- We go here?
- No, no, no, no, no.
, which is clearly they use
that a lot in France. That's
- French for No, that's - Right.
Is that what that was? Yeah.
love it when he spit French.
I know. I love it. That's great. You know, .
But look, I clearly,
there's another episode in this because, well,
- You know, we've just been discussing symbols and,
and I guess because of current events, Ukraine Yeah, yeah.
We, we started discussing, discussing symbols of protest.
Right. Uhhuh. But there's symbols of
so many things. Right? Well,
- Sure.
Right. Well, and, and,
and I mean, there's lots of different movements, which,
which cross borders and, and are,
and are approach to many different ways,
which is another area we can get into at some point,
because you've got, uh, we can talk about the,
what's happened in the United States as far as things like,
uh, different movements, uh, whether it has to do with race,
or it has to do with gender,
or it has to do with, uh, uh, uh, choice
or any of those types things.
Sure. Yep. And, and any of those things.
And they're gonna have symbols with them, which,
which they will find very powerful.
And again, others will find disturbing. Right.
For what, whatever race, depending on what
- I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go way out there.
- Oh, here he goes and - Say that everything, whoa.
Everything we do, every word we say, every gesture we make,
every article of clothing that we put on, every color
that we choose, every, every piece of food that passes
through our lips, everything we do,
every decision we make in every given movement
has all been pre-programmed in our, through our culture.
Is there free will? Yes.
And we can talk about the role
of free will in culture, but you're
- Blowing my mind .
But,
- But that's how much we are coded
and to some degree, controlled by our culture.
Mm-Hmm. Yeah. So,
- Oh, I've got a story about that.
- Okay. Coding as a symbol,
not the winter coating. Yes. But coding
- Or coding on a computer.
- . Right. Or coding on a computer. Right. Right.
- Now, which that one's and zeroes
- From your generation, that's
what you would think. Right. I'm
- Millennial, so that's - Okay.
So all coding in general, yes.
All of human activity is a code.
I'm sending you signals about
so many things just sitting here opposite you talking about
- This.
And I'm a little disturbed by it.
- , we can't look you in the eye. I could
- Say very disturbed, but, um, yeah, sure.
Okay. Well, you can go out on
that limb right there, and you can say that.
And I'm gonna go home and I'm going
to pull the sheets over my head
and I'm never going to move again.
- And that's a code for something. Oh, it is. Damn. Yeah.
- Oh, got me again, . Just when I thought I was, I'll
- Buy that.
- I'll buy it. He pulled me back
- In - .
- And what you do under those sheets is a code.
- All right. Now we're moving out.
Definitely don't hear about That's, it's
time to wrap it out. I
- Meant how you sleep.
- Oh, of course. Of course you do. Sure.
Uhhuh . Sure. Mm-Hmm. , thanks
for ruining it for everyone. I
- Mean, what direction are you facing? That's,
- That's according to, and Wow.
Oh my goodness. Well, you know,
- I'm in the group of not wanting to hear more about that.
- No. People are phoning in right now, actually. Insane.
No, we are taking calls. We're not,
we're not even broadcasting live.
Oh. So, okay. But people are
knowing this is happening. I to get
- Our number, but if you'd like to comment
- Yes.
If you, we, we do have ways you can get
- All us just yell, yelling at your phone or
whatever you're using to listen to
- This.
Just scream us We'll, your window, we'll
- Hear in.
And if you wanna, if you wanna find out
what direction Tom sleeps in , um, just let us know.
- I've actually, I've put a camera up in my room. Oh, no.
And, um, I'm going online now, dear.
So you'll be able to see me dear, dear.
And, uh, now that alone should be a symbol of just
absolute dread and fear right
- There.
Yeah. We need coating to
make sure that never gets out there,
- Right?
Yes. In a coat, maybe. Yeah.
- Lots of coating, - Lots of coats.
Just pile 'em up on top of me, please.
We beg you when All right.
Look at, we're gonna wrap this one up and,
but we'll revisit symbols
and, uh, maybe make sure at some point Yeah.
Maybe the whole drum kit at some point. . Oh yeah.
Sorry, I forgot. Thank, yeah, thanks a lot.
They're taking a break. He got one job. Gosh.
Actually was taking one freaking
job. They should really stop
- Smoking. It's
- Not good for, I thought he, I thought he was asleep
facing the other direction.
- Put Mylas away and - Oh my gosh.
Well, Dean Foster, it's great to be back in studio
with you again and, uh, terrific.
Terrific. And yeah, thank Well, terrific.
You're saying that about yourself or, uh, yes.
- And, and it's nice to have you here too. Oh,
- Great.
Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot.
There's a symbol on that, but we'll leave it alone for now.
That was code and, um, . .
It wasn't coded at all. It was pretty blatant.
It was pretty actually. Yeah.
Um, and Torin grad, good to have you here too.
Thank you. And, uh,
I'm Tom Peterson since nobody else wants to say my name.
And, uh, by the way, oops.
Your culture's showing smell ya.
Okay, listen, the way to get hold of us is, oops.
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