So everything is gonna be all right in the end.
Yes. Well, that's.
And if it's.
, wait a minute. Hold on. So, if.
It's not all right, now, it's not the end.
I'm sorry. This is, this is, is this the Pollyanna podcast?
Is that what we're in today?
Well, well, interesting. It's.
Literation.
Anyway, that, that you're, you're assuming this is a Pollyanna statement?
That's.
Right. I'm, that's exactly what I just did.
See in the West. We have to give it that kind of a value. But actually,
this is an old phrase as an, this is an idiom, an Indian idiom.
Oh, an Indian idiom. Right. There's another alliteration from.
From India, Uhhuh. The idea being that everything is really okay. Every,
and certainly in the end, everything will work out.
So if things aren't working out in this moment right now.
Yes.
That's okay. It's just not just means it's well, but it just means it's not the.
End. But can't you take that and also say that whatever you get is the okay.
In a way. Yes. Yes. But.
So which one is it? But if it's.
Not okay, now Yes. It's not, it's not bi it's not binary.
It is not one or the other. It's both. If it's not okay, now.
The Schrodinger's cat.
That too Sure. Then it simply means,
it simply means we haven't gotten to the end.
Yet. I feel boxed in. We're certainly not the end of this episode. We.
No, we just started actually. Right. Okay.
And I lit some incense because we were talking about Indian idioms.
Oh my goodness.
Um.
That's what that is. How prescient my.
Favorite, my favorite incense.
Uh, I, I I thought there was a problem. Well, nevermind. It is lovely .
It is a lovely scent. I, yeah. I really enjoyed it. Yes.
But I wanna go back.
To that, a flashback to my college days.
Ah, because isn't that striking that if it's, can you say.
The idiom one more time? Yeah, one more time on your idiom over there. Well.
Everything will be okay in the end. Ah. So if things are not okay, now,
don't worry. It's just not at the end yet. Ah.
Okay.
And that is reflective of so many aspects.
Is this in a broader concept or individually or both? Yes.
I, I would say both.
Oh, okay. Not either or.
Not.
Yet both. And, yeah. See, I'm thinking the dinosaurs would not agree with that.
Well, maybe.
It is the end .
for them.
And for us.
Now, this is one of the problems with, with the idiom.
Or the idiot.
How much time until the end ? Yes. Well, there you go.
You know how much time until the.
End? I mean, there's an expiration, uh, date on all of this. So.
Only if you choose to put one on.
Well, yeah. Sort of . I think it's already posted. But .
You know, actually we, we were kind talking about.
We'll talk to the sun about it.
Why are we talking about India today? First of all,
why are we talking about cultures? Because.
Oops. Your culture showing.
And I am Tom Peterson.
And I'm Dean Foster.
And torn is with us today. Hey, to Hello. They know my .
I feel like cheerful because of the incense. Uh, I Oh, it's,
is that Or you're about to pass out? It could be. No, I know. I totally.
Is that all it takes? Lovely.
. It is lovely sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. .
So we're talking, we started talking just about Indian culture, and, um,
and one of the things that strikes me, um,
I've had the privilege of working and traveling to India many times. Hmm.
One of the things that,
that struck me on one of my last trips to India was the fact that there was
this deeper se, a a more,
a more clear sense of homogenization of the culture in
India, uh, of the many cultures in India. First of all,
I should really preface my remark there, because India is,
you could speak of India as as one whole,
but it is a massively multicultural nation. Mm-hmm. mm-hmm.
. And,
and there is a sense that I had the last time I was there that I hadn't had
before, which was that, um, there was,
there was this homogenization,
there was this infiltration of non-Indian aspects into
Indian culture, which was more noticeable this time around for me,
certainly than ever before. Now,
this kind of phenomenon is happening everywhere around the world.
It's kind of a, well, not everywhere, but, but in, but a lot of places.
Byproduct of globalization, the byproduct.
Of globalizations of western colonialism traditions and, and,
and many other kinds of traditions, um, technology,
the fact that we have technology that brings information and brings aspects of
other cultures to us so dramatically and so quickly mm-hmm. ,
which I'm not putting a value on this, I'm not saying it's good or bad.
I think in some cases it's, it's both. Um, in some cases it's clearly not good.
In other cases, it's clearly okay. Yeah. Um, but it's happening. But,
but when it happens in a place like India, it,
it becomes very noticeable because India starts out,
at least for this westerner, um, as a, as a very non-Western place,
and therefore,
a very different kind of place from anything that I've experienced in my home,
which happens to be the northeast of the United States. Um,
so every time I go to India,
and I think this is true for any westerner like me who might go to India, um,
you are profoundly aware of how different human behavior can be
because it is so distinctly different from, from many things that are Western.
Uh, and that's an exciting and celebratory observation, I think. Yeah.
Because it gives us all options to think, wow, you know,
the way that we think and the way that we behave and the way that we do things
can in fact be very, very different. Other people see things very,
very differently. And in the,
and a and a very visible and and visceral example of this is how people live
their lives in India. Mm hmm. So if this process of homogenization,
or, or, or,
or the results of globalization and colonialism and many other factors, right.
Is happening in many places around the world. Mm-hmm. ,
it leaves us with, um, an impression that, that i,
that a lot of people feel comfortable with,
which is that they seize on those things that they can understand that a
representative of their culture, and they, and they make these judgements that,
oh, well, India's becoming just like home or India's, I,
I'm seeing, you know, there's the, there's the, the.
Familiarity that they.
Yeah. And, and so they, and then they extrapolate that to everything,
and they lose out on the possibility of authentic experiences.
Yeah. Um, but they,
but they also are blinded by what's going on.
They don't see the things that they don't understand.
They tend to only wanna see the things that make sense, that because.
They look for the things that make them feel comfortable.
Precisely. Yeah.
And so that's what they're searching for. Sure. Sure.
It's why there's a McDonald's on the champa on the.
Street corner and Starbucks all the.
World Yeah.
Yeah. Around, around the corner, right? Yeah. Exactly.
And there's a sadness to that. Sure. Which,
but on the other hand, um, it also brings economic opportunity.
And one could make the case that it's pretty elitist to judge it as,
uh, as, as something that shouldn't be happening, quote unquote, uh,
because that's only in our perception. I mean, there.
May be need, right. 'cause we don't.
Want it to happen. 'cause Right. 'cause we,
the traveler looking for some sort of exotic experience mm-hmm. Uh,
would prefer not to be assaulted by it, by a Starbucks or a McDonald's. Right.
Or maybe wants to, because maybe that's,
they're glad to see something that's comfortable for them.
I think that's a good point. You make the, uh, idea that the, the,
the traveler who might not go to the more
exotic locations because they feel uncomfortable, uh,
or more uncomfortable, might be willing to go if they know, well, don't worry.
You, you can always go and find McDonald's if you need that to eat something.
You can always, something like that can.
You can always get what, what, what you.
Want. You get the coffee at Starbucks or whatever would would,
so there might expand the opportunities for the people in the country.
You know, the, the, what we've always said is that no gain, no pain, no gain.
Right. So when you experience another culture,
you gotta be ready for feeling uncomfortable.
And if you're not gonna feel uncomfortable, you're not experiencing the culture.
Right.
Well, but that you are. Right. So.
If you are only experiencing those things that are similar enough to make you
feel comfortable.
Yeah. Well, that, uh, agreed.
Except that I think a lot of people have a hard time with that. Sure. Well,
it's hard for any of us. Right.
'cause learning and growth means going outside your comfort zone. Exactly.
Precisely. Yeah. And that's what, that's what travel should give us. Yeah. I,
I believe. Uh, but, but, but a lot. Well, I mean,
cases can be made for otherwise, if you're just looking to lay on a beach,
then have all the comforts in the world and don't, you know, and, and be ready,
you can do that. Yeah. And be ready to pay a lot for it. Yeah.
'cause you may be on that beach that, um,
isn't really set up for tourists and, and,
and it's gonna cost a lot to make you that comfortable.
So, so Dean, I'm curious,
when are times that you've gone outside of your comfort zone while in India to
sort of be part of that or experience that, that homegrown experience?
I guess I'll, I'll put it as being.
Authentic. Well, I, I think to that,
I guess I was trying to make that point earlier is that, um,
India's one of those places where as, as, as a westerner, uh,
you don't have to go very far.
And it doesn't take much to suddenly experience things that are,
that can make you uncomfortable, uh, because they are so different from,
uh, anything that you might be familiar with. Yeah. Um,
as soon as you step off the plane, you know, if you've not been to India before,
as, as a westerner, uh, you're gonna experience it, it's going to be an a,
a sensory overload. Uh, very few. I I think there are very few places, um,
in Western Europe and,
and North America where individuals, um, are,
have to make adjustments to the, to,
to the fact that there's far more people than they've ever experienced. Okay.
Right. Okay. Uh, walking down the street,
and you are walking down a crossing a street, it's just a, a, a challenge,
um,
because you cross the street and there's cars and trucks and lorries and cows
and camels and,
and people walking in all directions and cars going in all directions. Mm-hmm.
Um, and the sights and the smells and the incense and everything else,
all of the extremes, everything is on an extreme for, I would say,
compared to the way that most people have experienced their lives
in, at, at quote unquote at home, referring to a western life lifestyle.
So you don't have to go far to experience an auth to have an authentic
experience in India. Um,
but the degree to which one can insulate oneself against
feeling uncomfortable is probably greater now than it's ever been before.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. . Right. And I remember one time for me,
I was in Punta Cherry, India, so this is South India, which by the way,
is very different from North India and East is different from West. Um,
and I'm in the South, and this is a, uh, a city that was, uh,
basically co colonized by the French. Hmm. And so, visually,
you're kind of in this weird surreal zone.
As soon as you get into ponder cherry, where, um, there,
these, the city and, and the streets are on a grid,
which is not a, it is not fundamental to India at all,
any kind of organic growth of, of towns or cities. Hmm. Um,
but because of the colonial experience, in this case, with the French,
you have this French grid,
and you've got these little street markers all in French, and,
and you've got French pastry shops and, and, um, all these,
these influences of French culture. Mm-hmm.
So it starts to trigger almost on a limbic system, you know, the,
this Western response to, oh, I kind of know this.
But then as soon as you get a little closer to this,
you get the Indian influence. Mm-hmm. . So you,
you walk into the Roman Catholic Church, which itself is, is an import, right?
Mm-hmm. , a western colonial import in India. And there's,
there's a statue of Mary, but she's,
but she's clothed in a saffron sari.
And, and, and she's also black mm-hmm. . And
so you're having to start to put these two different images together,
and you understand on a cognitive level why they are that way. Uh,
but there's a dissonance. Hmm. And that's the way it should be. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
, you should experience this dissonance Now,
are you uncomfortable with it or are you comfortable with it? So, um, in,
I I,
I'm in this hotel and it was western
enough to make me feel comfortable.
And so I go down in the morning to have breakfast,
and I, I get, I sit down, they bring me coffee,
and I see SALs on the, on the menu, and I'm going,
oh, this would be nice, a cro salt . So I order croissants and I,
and it comes, um, with a little bit of butter. And I don't know about you guys,
but like buttered hot,
warm croissants just cry for like, uh,
strawberry jam. Oh, okay. Right. Sure. Right. Yeah. I mean,
so I go to the waiter, I go, uh, would you happen to have some strawberry jam?
And he goes, uh, oh, yes, sir. Of course. Absolutely. And he disappears.
And I'm sitting there and I'm sitting there with my wife and we're talking,
and after a while I realized jam hasn't come. Hmm. Right. So I,
I get his attention again. Now,
I'm in full dissonance here between where I know things are
the Indian, but I'm,
everything in my sensory environment is telling me, oh,
Ike should have strawberry jam with my qua salt .
And I get his attention, and he comes over and I go, um,
I'm just still waiting, wondering if the strawberry jams. And he goes, oh, uh,
let me check on that. Turns around disappears, right? Mm-hmm. .
And my wife leans over and she goes, you know, the strawberry jam doesn't exist.
, we're never gonna get the strawberry jam . And she's Right.
And she's talking to the cross Culturalists. Right. . And of course,
I knew that that was, that was the case. Hmm. Um, but I just.
A jam consumer at this point. Well.
I want my strawberry jam with my warm, buttery croissant. Yeah.
And everything is telling me this is possible, and you're.
Already tasting it, mentally tasting.
It. Right. And so I'm asking for it.
And what's happening is he is now behaving in an Indian way mm-hmm.
, where he cannot tell me that he doesn't have,
uh, the, the, the jam to go with the qua zone. And, and he doesn't,
but he doesn't tell me this. And he can't,
because in India and his culture, his job is to serve me.
And if he were to admit that he didn't have it,
then it meant that he couldn't be doing his job. Well.
Hmm.
So, and, and this speaks to Indian issues of hierarchy and,
and rank and roles and responsibilities that people have to each other.
Even something as simple as the roles and responsibilities between a customer
and, and, and a, and a waiter. Mm-hmm. .
So I get his attention again. This is the third time now mm-hmm. ,
and.
He's just so happy to see you, .
. It's his job to come over when, when, when I call,
but when I make contact with him, and I, I think I said something like,
I'm still waiting for the jam. And he.
You said that again.
Again. Okay.
Right. God, you're.
An annoying person. So we did, we did this like for three or four times. And,
and that was something like my wife said, I think she said that ,
she said, don't be the annoying person. I know you to be. Right.
, I, I can hear her say that. Yes.
, he, but he's working on figuring this out in,
in a way where he saves face, where he can,
where he can still be doing his job in a proper way.
He comes out with a little bowl
of ketchup, and he says, I'm sorry,
we don't have any more jam. We will have the strawberry jam tomorrow,
but I have this for you now out.
And you did what?
No, I got it. Okay. You're right. Okay. It, it was basically,
thank you very much, and Sure. And, and thank you. Yeah. And,
and, and so in that little moment for me,
there was this kind of epiphany, this revelation of this,
of the degree to which you can have cultural dissonance and feel the discomfort,
um, even to a point where your expectations have to be reset.
Um, and, and where your reactions to things have to be reflected on,
you know, and, and I admit I didn't do a very good job in that moment mm-hmm.
. Uh, but it was all about just a.
You were just trying to get what you wanted to eat.
A quas and a and, and, but there's jam,
but there's this deeper cross-cultural issue that gets raised mm-hmm.
, you know, and, um,
about traditional Indian expectations about roles and
responsibilities, who's taking responsibility for it, uh,
and, and adjusting to that, right.
So that you can still have your authentic experiences, but it,
but also understand that they ha they may come with all sorts of modifications
that you, that you cannot predict.
Hmm. Right. Yeah.
I have a question off of that from a few ways that you've addressed his actions.
Okay. Um, the, the, the, the main one being,
where do you find the,
the most reliable definition of really traditional
cultural values? Because in, in many ways,
like what you were just describing sounds like, and,
and you had mentioned it comes out of the colonialism, uh, uh, that,
that whether it was the French or the English in the area, and, um,
it builds off of that. So he's got this layer of,
of social layer that he is in, then his behavior is gonna be dic dictated Yeah.
Gonna be dictated by that. But does that also come to you from,
come to them from a prior to the Western influence?
Oh.
Yes, absolutely. I mean, I,
I inherent to Indian culture is this idea of hierarchy, rank, and even.
Before they were occupied by the westerns most.
Profoundly. Yes. Okay. So if you look at Hinduism mm-hmm.
in India is where Hinduism began. Mm-hmm. .
And for 90% of the history, um, it,
it is a Hindu influence culture, right? Yeah. More or less in different areas,
and more or less at different times. Sure.
But Hinduism had a profound effect on it.
And it's the only place where Hinduism actually still is as profoundly
influential mm-hmm. in the entire world. Hmm. It's,
it was the indigenous religion of, of, of India. Yeah.
Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
from all intents and purposes and different forms,
but that's what it was. Hmm. And it emphasizes hierarchy and rank. Mm. You know,
you've got thousands of gods,
and each of these gods is responsible to another God for another thing. Mm-hmm.
And each one has a function and a role in making sure the universe continues the
way it's supposed to continue. Sure. Mm-hmm. . Okay. And these,
these gods are ranked, you can see them on the,
in the temples literally ranked in the, in these huge, uh, uh,
triangles of, of pyramids almost.
Mm-hmm. and going through the importance at the top, at.
The top, the trilogy mm-hmm. the three main gods. And, and, and,
and so this idea of everyone plays a role. Yeah.
And you really can't change your role.
You can only change your karma for the next time around. Mm-hmm.
Now is an opportunity to change your karma for the next time. Mm-hmm.
But don't expect any change in your position this time. Yeah.
That's convenient.
Which is sort of taking us back to that, that idiom, which is that yeah,
everything will work out in the end, but when is the end? The end, right?
Yeah.
And the end,
you should be that you do so much good karma that you are released from the
cycle of reincarnation. There you go. Okay. And, and that you no long,
that's the end. Yeah.
Okay.
And, uh,
but that whole idea of reincarnation and of fatalism and of hierarchy
and roles and responsibilities Sure.
That plays itself out in every small detail and every major detail of life
in India. And so that tradition is profound and strong. And if the,
if French colonialism only emphasized that to, to an even greater degree. Yeah.
Well, then you have even more of it.
Maybe they're just symbiotic. When the, uh, when the French and the,
and the British arrived, um, you know, it,
with the intent of taking over, they, um,
they found a symbiotic relationship with the,
with the entire structure that was already there. Could explain that. Right.
For sure. Yeah.
There was, there was a confluence of, of these two traditions Sure.
That came from two different places, very different.
But at they did come together,
there was this tradition of hierarchy and rank. Yes. Yeah. Now, I'm,
I'm not saying that it's as, as strong in France as it was in India.
I think in India is much deeper and much more profound, actually.
Uhhuh Okay.
Sure. So they, yeah. So in pond cherry, yes. It was part of,
part of traditional Indian.
Culture Yeah, yeah. Interest before the French got there. Okay.
Okay. But, but you are raising an interesting point too, Tom, in that, wow.
That's one in a row for me. . Well done. Thank you. Lemme mark that down.
.
To what degree can,
can we expect cultures to be less traditional, uh,
or more traditional, you know? Yeah. Are they changing profoundly and quickly,
uh, or is that change something that is happening,
but it's not really going to have a major effect on
traditional culture? Right. That's a question. Right, right. And,
and I, the interesting answer to that, I think, is that there re the,
the research is showing that at a very deep level,
cultures really don't change very much. Mm-hmm.
Right. Okay. So.
Glac glacially, yeah. You can look at, you know,
the headlines and or take a trip somewhere and see something happening and
observe it or, or say, well, I mean, let's use China as an example.
The last 30 years, I mean, China's profoundly changed, right.
Superficially, economically, politically,
but fundamentally culturally. Hmm. That's a question.
Well, the roots are much deeper in those situations.
Is is what you were explaining a moment ago. The deeper.
The roots, the slower to change Sure. At a fundamental level.
Right.
Because that fundamental level is so ingrained that I don't know
that, is it even seen as a level or just the starting place?
No, I like to think it isn't. 'cause that's my job. Right.
Okay. .
I think we've got plenty of people who will talk about, you know, well,
there's a political reason why pe why Indians or Chinese or Brazilians do X, Y,
Z. Uh, and, and economists will say, no,
there's an economic reason why this is being done. Right. Uh,
but few people are saying there's a cultural reason, you know,
and I saw a cultural reason in my issue with my al
and my Marmal aid.
Sure. And, and,
and Kate make the argument that taking those two directions that they're saying,
well, it comes from an economic region, uh, reason or whatever, putting,
when you put them together, you get, start to get to your cultural regions.
I think so. Yeah. And I think that can be seen in interpreting the headlines,
and it can also be seen in the smallest moments of sitting down and wanting a
croissant. Sure.
So, Dean, from your many experiences in India,
when are other times when you saw those traditional values
deeply ingrained.
Everywhere? All the time. .
Okay, well, that's all the time. And no podcast, .
Um, well.
Here's, here's an interesting extrapolation from that. Uhhuh, right now,
fast forward from these thousands of years of, uh,
of Hindu influence, right? Mm-hmm. .
And then you have a situation this where colonialism and then modern economics
and and traditions, cultural traditions, all come together.
What was it back about 30, 40 years ago, um, in Boal, India?
Anybody remember this? I'm going back pretty far. Be.
Paul. Yes. Yeah. I I know where you're going.
Okay. There was an explosion Yes. Right at a chemical factory. I think it.
Was, it was a Dow chemical, wasn't it?
Was it Dow? Okay. So it was.
Well, I, I i I, I shouldn't say that because I don't know for sure. I.
Think you may be.
Right, but I believe that's correct.
Right. And it was a massive explosion, a lot of deaths, and it was a.
Horrible scenario.
Horrible. The, you know, there was a lot of litigation after this.
This happened. Oh, yeah. Right.
And in the papers that came out from the, from the, uh, the court papers,
I'm, I'm oversimplifying here 'cause it's a complicated case, right? Yeah.
But basically,
the management of the plant was saying,
nobody told us that there was a problem in the plant.
And when they, and the management was US American, and they,
they were playing this naive role and, and,
and probably tell saying what they truly observed to be the
case. Look, nobody told us there was a problem in the, in,
in the plant had we known about a problem in the plant, you know,
we are off on the other side of the world and no,
nobody's telling us about this. And the Indians were saying,
that's not our job to tell our bosses and our supervisors and our
managers that there's a problem in the plant.
That's their responsibility as managers to know that there's a
problem mm-hmm. and to tell us what to do to fix it. Mm-hmm.
Huh.
So, of course, you, you have a big gap. So one could say, oh, look,
both sides are trying to escape responsibility for this. And,
and there's probably a lot of truth to that. Sure.
But the fact that you had this phenomenon of discussion mm-hmm.
, that the,
that the discussion took this form where a defense was actually trying to be
made by saying, no,
it's management's job to know if there's a problem and to tell us about it so we
could fix it. Mm-hmm. that challenged the,
the whole American way of doing business. Yeah. It was like, wait a minute,
as a manager, this is the boss talking as the manager,
you're supposed to tell me if there's a problem,
you're supposed to tell me what you need so that we can fix it.
And nobody, well, not nobody,
but the Indians were making the case that there's not my job. It's.
Your job. Interesting. Yeah. That it goes the, well,
we had two different directions of flow going on, and they were so,
they were going away from each other, leaving an opening that ended up tragic.
And, and both positions reflected coincidentally,
quote unquote Yeah. The cultural roots. Mm, sure. Right.
One looking at the roles and responsibilities based on hierarchy.
And the other one looking at, well, let's,
let's smash the hierarchy just 'cause you work for me,
boss speaking,
I expect you to tell me when you need something or to tell me if there's a
problem, or let's work together on fixing it. That's not my job.
That's your job. You're the manager. Right.
Right.
Two one anti hierarchical. One hierarchical. Yeah. Yeah.
And so the fact that they, they were coincidentally used as,
as the cultural justifications for their positions in this legal battle over who
is responsible. Yeah.
Indicates to me that culture has a profound effect on what goes on
e even when it happens in the headlines, like at Bo Powell,
or happens to me when I want my mama laid from somebody who can't give it to me.
Well, sure. Right.
But that lack of understanding of it can lead to problems of, um,
massive consequences. Massive consequences. It, it, it,
I'm talking about the one you didn't get your jam.
That's the what I'm talking about. Well.
That, and in that moment, that was stakes in that moment.
That was stakes involved. And to assume.
That wasn't an international incident, , it was for some, and.
To, and to assume that ketchup was gonna take the place of marmalade,
you know? Yeah. Strawberry jam or, or.
Well, well, ketchup. What's interesting too is, and, and I don't know this so,
but would, would the ketchup have,
has perhaps the ketchup sat at a very high level
of, and especially for an American,
that the assumption was there that ketchup would be an answer,
a solution, a a because he's American.
He was trying to the best of his capabilities to figure out what might I like.
Yeah.
To solve my.
Problem. And they put ketchup on everything. Those was American Americans,
those American, yes.
Right. Yeah.
Right. My father did all the time. I, I literally on, on,
I cannot think of anything. He did not put ketchup on. Hmm.
My father was not Indian. Um, he was . I'm not,
I'm not a ketchup fan. Yeah. Uh, it's, it's fine.
. It's, sorry, Hinz. Well, that they're not, so we could say whatever.
Yeah. We can say whatever we want, .
Anyway, that, that's it. It's, it really is, I think very much shows the, um,
the, the what happens in the scenario of things going different directions and
people's expectations, regardless of it's India and the United States, or,
or what the cultures are like, that,
that there's gonna be separations of the way you approach things.
And then those separations are gonna relieve openings for problems.
Absolutely. And that's why we have to understand these Yeah. The,
the these as the aspect of the impact that,
that traditional culture has on our behaviors,
even though today are behaviors that we encounter can be very,
a complex combination of so many things. Yeah. Not just the,
the traditional culture. No. US American is a traditional US American.
If we were,
we'd be walking around with either Puritan hats or African as African African
slaves, you know, but we are influenced by these,
by these fundamentals of American culture. And the same in India.
We're in another town in India, again, it,
this was in the south at this massive temple,
Hindu temple in most cases, right? Mm-hmm. . And, and, um,
every temple has, its, uh,
has its elephant and usually has they're sacred
cows. Um, and some of these temples are so huge that,
that you can't even see the elephant. Oh, look,
there's an elephant in the corner. Wow.
Well, but this, we should talk about the elephant in the corner.
Right. But there's thousands of people walking through this temple,
and you're just amongst them. One of.
Them could be an elephant, and.
You don't even see the elephant. Oh, look, there's an elephant in the corner,
. And then there's all these cows, and of course, cows give milk.
And so cows are sacred mm-hmm. , and therefore, and,
and we don't want to eat the cows so we don't eat much meat. And, and, um,
and the cows are, are allowed to wander through streets in,
in many cases mm-hmm. , um,
and all of this being a challenge to a western concept of how we organize
ourselves. But anyway, I'm in this temple and, um, it, the,
uh, person I'm with says, you know,
you could walk up to these cows and in fact you should feed them and you'll,
you'll get a blessing because, uh, there was a priest nearby,
and if you feed the cow, you, you'll get blessed. Um, so let's,
let's give it a try. The problem was to enter a Hindu temple in India,
you have to take your shoes off. Mm-hmm.
. Yeah.
Alright. So you leave your shoes out on the, out of the front of a temple.
And as you walk up to these cows, as well as to walk up to the elephant,
you had to walk through all of the straw and all of the dung mm-hmm.
, that was, that was there in their section mm-hmm. .
And, um, so I'm going, okay, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm,
I'm ready for this.
And there were several people with me who didn't want to do this, uh,
because they didn't want, they, they had, didn't have their shoes on.
They didn't wanna walk through the Don. So, um,
the person I was with tried to reassure them and said, no,
but this is perfectly fine because it's, um, antiseptic. Mm. Um,
that the dung, the dung has an antiseptic quality to it. Hmm. And it,
that's one of the reasons why the cows are sacred and we love them, uh,
because they're health giving. Hmm.
And this is one of the health giving aspects of the cow. Hmm. And of course,
this is totally contrary to western medicine. Right. Um,
because basically walking in shit is not a healthy thing to do. Mm-hmm.
, . And here, now one could say, if the,
if this created enough cultural dissonance where you, you,
in the absence of facts or an openness to an alternative way of looking at
things,
you get defensive about your position because you don't wanna step in shit and
you say, I'm not doing it.
Okay. Yep. Yeah.
And a number of people with me said they weren't gonna do it. Sure.
Afterwards,
I did a little bit of research on the antiseptic quality of cow
dung mm-hmm. mm-hmm. .
And there's a lot of research to indicate that it is Hmm.
And that yes, it can be, um, not good for you,
it or for your health,
if you have open source and certain germs that can be
associated with kung mm-hmm. get into your system that way.
'cause you can get parasites.
Oh yeah, sure. Uhhuh .
But there are antiseptic qualities too, which is part of the,
part of the belief system in, uh, Ayurvedics,
which is in the Indian of the Indian health,
basically an Indian health system mm-hmm. , but an Eastern Indian,
not western medical tradition, an eastern medical tradition. Hmm.
And there's evidence of this, huh. And she wasn't wrong.
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, I, the,
the big question then is, and I,
I think you may have mentioned this experience briefly in our shoes and
Argentinian pink underwear episode seem to remember this,
but I don't remember how it ended. So the big question is, did you walk in.
Couch it? Oh, I did, of course. Okay. Yeah. Great. I, I did.
So I redeemed myself for my bad behavior over my croissant and,
and good and marm lady to cherry. Okay. And,
and I was, and, and it's interesting too, Tom,
because now that I'm thinking about this Yeah.
Ponded cherry happened at the beginning of my trip. Hmm.
And this happened toward the end. Hmm.
So where I began to feel more comfortable with whatever dissonance was going
on,
and be open to the possibility that it may be an alternate
way of doing things, right?
Mm-hmm. , right? Mm-hmm. .
And not necessarily defend against it.
Right. Sure.
So I went through that, that cross-cultural process. Mm-hmm. .
Okay.
And, and to my knowledge,
I have no parasites and I have no downsides to the experience. Yeah. Yeah.
In fact, I feel healthier than I've ever felt.
Well, you do have a certain odor about you, but, um, other,
we're not sure that anything tot you haven't lost your feet off, or did, did.
You take your shoes off or.
Keep your.
Shoes on? No, you can't end of a temple without taking your shoes off. Ah.
Okay. Okay. That's, yeah.
So in order to be blessed, I would definitely do it without shoes in, in,
in order to.
I think I would've done it without my shoes on anyway.
In order to feed the cow, to get the blessing, you had to walk through this.
Gotcha. Sure. Was it like, percentage wise,
were you about like 50%, 75, 90,
a hundred percent that you were going to step in cow manure. Oh.
You were gonna step in cow. This is like, this was, this was.
It was gonna happen for you. This was a hundred percent.
It had to be. Yeah. Yeah. You couldn't get to the animal.
Otherwise to Yeah, that's what I meant. There's so much Yeah.
That you're gonna step in. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Okay. And it was, it was healthy, but it.
Sounds like there were, you were with others who did not.
That's right. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Were you the only one in your group that.
Did it?
No. Okay. Have those people all been cursed? They're.
All dead.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. good. .
No, no. He's saying good, good for the people who, who didn't go.
They were cursed. That's right. And he's saying good,
good for the ones who went, died.
all, all not true. And not, uh,
or maybe whos . Um, anyway, it's well, fascinating.
It's time to mm-hmm. It's time to wrap this one up. Mm-hmm. But, um, um, uh.
It's.
Nothing better to wrap up on than.
Than cow is. It is it is it, is it because we've, um.
Once you've done the cow crap mo, uh, story, there's nowhere else to go.
. That's an old saying. It's an idiom. I think so. Um, .
Well, everything will turn out the end. And if it's idiot, and if,
and if things aren't, is the end working out. It's not the end,
but it did turn out. So it's the end.
It's the end. Yeah. . Well, thank you, Dean.
Thank you Tom.
And, uh, thank you Torin. Sure. I'm gonna go take my shoes off and I don't know,
, would you have done it? Are you gonna to go walk in?
I would've done it. Would, I would done, would, would, would you have done it?
Oh yeah. With a, in a heartbeat. Well, thank you very much, Dean,
for today's and, um, Torin. Thank you. And, um, we are at the end of,
um, oops. Oops.
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