1 00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:02,400 So everything is gonna be all right in the end. 2 00:00:03,100 --> 00:00:04,240 Yes. Well, that's. 3 00:00:04,460 --> 00:00:05,280 And if it's. 4 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:06,960 , wait a minute. Hold on. So, if. 5 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:08,880 It's not all right, now, it's not the end. 6 00:00:09,140 --> 00:00:11,960 I'm sorry. This is, this is, is this the Pollyanna podcast? 7 00:00:12,260 --> 00:00:13,160 Is that what we're in today? 8 00:00:13,190 --> 00:00:14,480 Well, well, interesting. It's. 9 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:14,800 Literation. 10 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,160 Anyway, that, that you're, you're assuming this is a Pollyanna statement? 11 00:00:18,300 --> 00:00:18,720 That's. 12 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:20,280 Right. I'm, that's exactly what I just did. 13 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:23,760 See in the West. We have to give it that kind of a value. But actually, 14 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,360 this is an old phrase as an, this is an idiom, an Indian idiom. 15 00:00:27,620 --> 00:00:30,240 Oh, an Indian idiom. Right. There's another alliteration from. 16 00:00:30,390 --> 00:00:35,240 From India, Uhhuh. The idea being that everything is really okay. Every, 17 00:00:35,260 --> 00:00:37,880 and certainly in the end, everything will work out. 18 00:00:38,660 --> 00:00:41,560 So if things aren't working out in this moment right now. 19 00:00:41,900 --> 00:00:42,733 Yes. 20 00:00:43,210 --> 00:00:46,550 That's okay. It's just not just means it's well, but it just means it's not the. 21 00:00:46,550 --> 00:00:51,230 End. But can't you take that and also say that whatever you get is the okay. 22 00:00:52,750 --> 00:00:54,890 In a way. Yes. Yes. But. 23 00:00:55,030 --> 00:00:56,090 So which one is it? But if it's. 24 00:00:56,270 --> 00:01:00,210 Not okay, now Yes. It's not, it's not bi it's not binary. 25 00:01:00,750 --> 00:01:04,330 It is not one or the other. It's both. If it's not okay, now. 26 00:01:04,350 --> 00:01:05,330 The Schrodinger's cat. 27 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,290 That too Sure. Then it simply means, 28 00:01:10,030 --> 00:01:12,330 it simply means we haven't gotten to the end. 29 00:01:12,330 --> 00:01:15,730 Yet. I feel boxed in. We're certainly not the end of this episode. We. 30 00:01:15,730 --> 00:01:18,370 No, we just started actually. Right. Okay. 31 00:01:18,510 --> 00:01:22,090 And I lit some incense because we were talking about Indian idioms. 32 00:01:22,510 --> 00:01:23,343 Oh my goodness. 33 00:01:23,750 --> 00:01:24,470 Um. 34 00:01:24,470 --> 00:01:26,210 That's what that is. How prescient my. 35 00:01:26,250 --> 00:01:27,810 Favorite, my favorite incense. 36 00:01:28,190 --> 00:01:32,330 Uh, I, I I thought there was a problem. Well, nevermind. It is lovely . 37 00:01:32,510 --> 00:01:35,370 It is a lovely scent. I, yeah. I really enjoyed it. Yes. 38 00:01:35,550 --> 00:01:36,290 But I wanna go back. 39 00:01:36,290 --> 00:01:38,410 To that, a flashback to my college days. 40 00:01:38,790 --> 00:01:43,050 Ah, because isn't that striking that if it's, can you say. 41 00:01:43,050 --> 00:01:45,690 The idiom one more time? Yeah, one more time on your idiom over there. Well. 42 00:01:45,690 --> 00:01:49,490 Everything will be okay in the end. Ah. So if things are not okay, now, 43 00:01:50,350 --> 00:01:52,980 don't worry. It's just not at the end yet. Ah. 44 00:01:52,980 --> 00:01:53,813 Okay. 45 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,220 And that is reflective of so many aspects. 46 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,630 Is this in a broader concept or individually or both? Yes. 47 00:02:00,830 --> 00:02:01,663 I, I would say both. 48 00:02:01,890 --> 00:02:04,210 Oh, okay. Not either or. 49 00:02:04,790 --> 00:02:05,010 Not. 50 00:02:05,010 --> 00:02:08,530 Yet both. And, yeah. See, I'm thinking the dinosaurs would not agree with that. 51 00:02:09,700 --> 00:02:10,790 Well, maybe. 52 00:02:10,790 --> 00:02:11,790 It is the end . 53 00:02:12,190 --> 00:02:13,310 for them. 54 00:02:13,930 --> 00:02:14,763 And for us. 55 00:02:15,650 --> 00:02:18,630 Now, this is one of the problems with, with the idiom. 56 00:02:19,930 --> 00:02:20,763 Or the idiot. 57 00:02:20,930 --> 00:02:24,390 How much time until the end ? Yes. Well, there you go. 58 00:02:24,610 --> 00:02:25,910 You know how much time until the. 59 00:02:25,910 --> 00:02:28,910 End? I mean, there's an expiration, uh, date on all of this. So. 60 00:02:29,180 --> 00:02:31,110 Only if you choose to put one on. 61 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:36,270 Well, yeah. Sort of . I think it's already posted. But . 62 00:02:37,370 --> 00:02:39,830 You know, actually we, we were kind talking about. 63 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:40,990 We'll talk to the sun about it. 64 00:02:41,410 --> 00:02:43,270 Why are we talking about India today? First of all, 65 00:02:43,270 --> 00:02:44,710 why are we talking about cultures? Because. 66 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,610 Oops. Your culture showing. 67 00:02:56,070 --> 00:02:57,210 And I am Tom Peterson. 68 00:02:57,350 --> 00:02:58,330 And I'm Dean Foster. 69 00:02:58,830 --> 00:03:03,520 And torn is with us today. Hey, to Hello. They know my . 70 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,800 I feel like cheerful because of the incense. Uh, I Oh, it's, 71 00:03:06,820 --> 00:03:10,240 is that Or you're about to pass out? It could be. No, I know. I totally. 72 00:03:10,620 --> 00:03:11,960 Is that all it takes? Lovely. 73 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,880 . It is lovely sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. . 74 00:03:15,100 --> 00:03:19,080 So we're talking, we started talking just about Indian culture, and, um, 75 00:03:19,220 --> 00:03:21,320 and one of the things that strikes me, um, 76 00:03:21,390 --> 00:03:24,640 I've had the privilege of working and traveling to India many times. Hmm. 77 00:03:24,740 --> 00:03:25,573 One of the things that, 78 00:03:25,910 --> 00:03:30,600 that struck me on one of my last trips to India was the fact that there was 79 00:03:30,870 --> 00:03:32,640 this deeper se, a a more, 80 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,920 a more clear sense of homogenization of the culture in 81 00:03:38,010 --> 00:03:41,360 India, uh, of the many cultures in India. First of all, 82 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,120 I should really preface my remark there, because India is, 83 00:03:44,500 --> 00:03:46,600 you could speak of India as as one whole, 84 00:03:46,620 --> 00:03:49,960 but it is a massively multicultural nation. Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. 85 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:50,420 . And, 86 00:03:50,420 --> 00:03:54,640 and there is a sense that I had the last time I was there that I hadn't had 87 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,960 before, which was that, um, there was, 88 00:03:58,010 --> 00:03:59,920 there was this homogenization, 89 00:03:59,970 --> 00:04:04,920 there was this infiltration of non-Indian aspects into 90 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:09,520 Indian culture, which was more noticeable this time around for me, 91 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,200 certainly than ever before. Now, 92 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,520 this kind of phenomenon is happening everywhere around the world. 93 00:04:14,670 --> 00:04:17,040 It's kind of a, well, not everywhere, but, but in, but a lot of places. 94 00:04:17,150 --> 00:04:19,320 Byproduct of globalization, the byproduct. 95 00:04:19,340 --> 00:04:23,320 Of globalizations of western colonialism traditions and, and, 96 00:04:23,380 --> 00:04:26,840 and many other kinds of traditions, um, technology, 97 00:04:26,980 --> 00:04:31,200 the fact that we have technology that brings information and brings aspects of 98 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:34,440 other cultures to us so dramatically and so quickly mm-hmm. , 99 00:04:34,810 --> 00:04:37,600 which I'm not putting a value on this, I'm not saying it's good or bad. 100 00:04:37,840 --> 00:04:42,440 I think in some cases it's, it's both. Um, in some cases it's clearly not good. 101 00:04:42,460 --> 00:04:47,000 In other cases, it's clearly okay. Yeah. Um, but it's happening. But, 102 00:04:47,020 --> 00:04:50,380 but when it happens in a place like India, it, 103 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,420 it becomes very noticeable because India starts out, 104 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:58,340 at least for this westerner, um, as a, as a very non-Western place, 105 00:04:58,440 --> 00:04:59,100 and therefore, 106 00:04:59,100 --> 00:05:03,540 a very different kind of place from anything that I've experienced in my home, 107 00:05:03,910 --> 00:05:07,100 which happens to be the northeast of the United States. Um, 108 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,020 so every time I go to India, 109 00:05:09,100 --> 00:05:13,900 and I think this is true for any westerner like me who might go to India, um, 110 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,620 you are profoundly aware of how different human behavior can be 111 00:05:19,090 --> 00:05:23,060 because it is so distinctly different from, from many things that are Western. 112 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:28,100 Uh, and that's an exciting and celebratory observation, I think. Yeah. 113 00:05:28,100 --> 00:05:31,060 Because it gives us all options to think, wow, you know, 114 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,700 the way that we think and the way that we behave and the way that we do things 115 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,940 can in fact be very, very different. Other people see things very, 116 00:05:38,940 --> 00:05:40,180 very differently. And in the, 117 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:44,780 and a and a very visible and and visceral example of this is how people live 118 00:05:44,780 --> 00:05:49,420 their lives in India. Mm hmm. So if this process of homogenization, 119 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:50,980 or, or, or, 120 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:55,340 or the results of globalization and colonialism and many other factors, right. 121 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,400 Is happening in many places around the world. Mm-hmm. , 122 00:05:58,620 --> 00:06:03,320 it leaves us with, um, an impression that, that i, 123 00:06:04,190 --> 00:06:06,960 that a lot of people feel comfortable with, 124 00:06:06,970 --> 00:06:11,800 which is that they seize on those things that they can understand that a 125 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:16,560 representative of their culture, and they, and they make these judgements that, 126 00:06:16,820 --> 00:06:21,400 oh, well, India's becoming just like home or India's, I, 127 00:06:21,580 --> 00:06:24,280 I'm seeing, you know, there's the, there's the, the. 128 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:25,593 Familiarity that they. 129 00:06:25,910 --> 00:06:29,120 Yeah. And, and so they, and then they extrapolate that to everything, 130 00:06:29,340 --> 00:06:33,640 and they lose out on the possibility of authentic experiences. 131 00:06:34,110 --> 00:06:35,640 Yeah. Um, but they, 132 00:06:36,060 --> 00:06:40,360 but they also are blinded by what's going on. 133 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,040 They don't see the things that they don't understand. 134 00:06:43,070 --> 00:06:45,480 They tend to only wanna see the things that make sense, that because. 135 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,480 They look for the things that make them feel comfortable. 136 00:06:47,670 --> 00:06:48,640 Precisely. Yeah. 137 00:06:48,940 --> 00:06:51,120 And so that's what they're searching for. Sure. Sure. 138 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,520 It's why there's a McDonald's on the champa on the. 139 00:06:54,700 --> 00:06:56,520 Street corner and Starbucks all the. 140 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:56,880 World Yeah. 141 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,560 Yeah. Around, around the corner, right? Yeah. Exactly. 142 00:07:00,340 --> 00:07:03,720 And there's a sadness to that. Sure. Which, 143 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,340 but on the other hand, um, it also brings economic opportunity. 144 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:13,220 And one could make the case that it's pretty elitist to judge it as, 145 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,180 uh, as, as something that shouldn't be happening, quote unquote, uh, 146 00:07:17,180 --> 00:07:19,780 because that's only in our perception. I mean, there. 147 00:07:19,780 --> 00:07:21,140 May be need, right. 'cause we don't. 148 00:07:21,140 --> 00:07:23,060 Want it to happen. 'cause Right. 'cause we, 149 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,380 the traveler looking for some sort of exotic experience mm-hmm. Uh, 150 00:07:26,380 --> 00:07:31,300 would prefer not to be assaulted by it, by a Starbucks or a McDonald's. Right. 151 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,580 Or maybe wants to, because maybe that's, 152 00:07:33,580 --> 00:07:35,940 they're glad to see something that's comfortable for them. 153 00:07:36,180 --> 00:07:39,700 I think that's a good point. You make the, uh, idea that the, the, 154 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,940 the traveler who might not go to the more 155 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,660 exotic locations because they feel uncomfortable, uh, 156 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,940 or more uncomfortable, might be willing to go if they know, well, don't worry. 157 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,860 You, you can always go and find McDonald's if you need that to eat something. 158 00:07:57,860 --> 00:07:58,620 You can always, something like that can. 159 00:07:58,620 --> 00:07:59,660 You can always get what, what, what you. 160 00:07:59,660 --> 00:08:02,380 Want. You get the coffee at Starbucks or whatever would would, 161 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,860 so there might expand the opportunities for the people in the country. 162 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,940 You know, the, the, what we've always said is that no gain, no pain, no gain. 163 00:08:10,940 --> 00:08:12,900 Right. So when you experience another culture, 164 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,300 you gotta be ready for feeling uncomfortable. 165 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,380 And if you're not gonna feel uncomfortable, you're not experiencing the culture. 166 00:08:18,510 --> 00:08:19,343 Right. 167 00:08:19,810 --> 00:08:21,540 Well, but that you are. Right. So. 168 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,500 If you are only experiencing those things that are similar enough to make you 169 00:08:25,500 --> 00:08:26,333 feel comfortable. 170 00:08:27,130 --> 00:08:28,660 Yeah. Well, that, uh, agreed. 171 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,660 Except that I think a lot of people have a hard time with that. Sure. Well, 172 00:08:31,660 --> 00:08:32,620 it's hard for any of us. Right. 173 00:08:32,780 --> 00:08:35,060 'cause learning and growth means going outside your comfort zone. Exactly. 174 00:08:35,060 --> 00:08:38,900 Precisely. Yeah. And that's what, that's what travel should give us. Yeah. I, 175 00:08:39,060 --> 00:08:42,220 I believe. Uh, but, but, but a lot. Well, I mean, 176 00:08:42,220 --> 00:08:46,940 cases can be made for otherwise, if you're just looking to lay on a beach, 177 00:08:47,490 --> 00:08:51,180 then have all the comforts in the world and don't, you know, and, and be ready, 178 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,060 you can do that. Yeah. And be ready to pay a lot for it. Yeah. 179 00:08:54,300 --> 00:08:58,160 'cause you may be on that beach that, um, 180 00:08:59,850 --> 00:09:02,240 isn't really set up for tourists and, and, 181 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,400 and it's gonna cost a lot to make you that comfortable. 182 00:09:04,540 --> 00:09:05,520 So, so Dean, I'm curious, 183 00:09:05,550 --> 00:09:08,680 when are times that you've gone outside of your comfort zone while in India to 184 00:09:08,680 --> 00:09:12,040 sort of be part of that or experience that, that homegrown experience? 185 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:13,480 I guess I'll, I'll put it as being. 186 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:15,760 Authentic. Well, I, I think to that, 187 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,440 I guess I was trying to make that point earlier is that, um, 188 00:09:18,510 --> 00:09:22,640 India's one of those places where as, as, as a westerner, uh, 189 00:09:22,660 --> 00:09:23,760 you don't have to go very far. 190 00:09:23,940 --> 00:09:27,320 And it doesn't take much to suddenly experience things that are, 191 00:09:27,550 --> 00:09:32,520 that can make you uncomfortable, uh, because they are so different from, 192 00:09:32,900 --> 00:09:36,000 uh, anything that you might be familiar with. Yeah. Um, 193 00:09:36,100 --> 00:09:40,080 as soon as you step off the plane, you know, if you've not been to India before, 194 00:09:40,140 --> 00:09:44,400 as, as a westerner, uh, you're gonna experience it, it's going to be an a, 195 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:49,560 a sensory overload. Uh, very few. I I think there are very few places, um, 196 00:09:50,140 --> 00:09:52,680 in Western Europe and, 197 00:09:53,100 --> 00:09:56,800 and North America where individuals, um, are, 198 00:09:58,030 --> 00:10:00,480 have to make adjustments to the, to, 199 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,040 to the fact that there's far more people than they've ever experienced. Okay. 200 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:05,760 Right. Okay. Uh, walking down the street, 201 00:10:05,980 --> 00:10:10,160 and you are walking down a crossing a street, it's just a, a, a challenge, 202 00:10:10,780 --> 00:10:11,000 um, 203 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,480 because you cross the street and there's cars and trucks and lorries and cows 204 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:15,400 and camels and, 205 00:10:15,740 --> 00:10:19,280 and people walking in all directions and cars going in all directions. Mm-hmm. 206 00:10:19,660 --> 00:10:24,440 Um, and the sights and the smells and the incense and everything else, 207 00:10:25,060 --> 00:10:29,640 all of the extremes, everything is on an extreme for, I would say, 208 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:34,040 compared to the way that most people have experienced their lives 209 00:10:35,540 --> 00:10:40,360 in, at, at quote unquote at home, referring to a western life lifestyle. 210 00:10:40,860 --> 00:10:44,480 So you don't have to go far to experience an auth to have an authentic 211 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,840 experience in India. Um, 212 00:10:48,860 --> 00:10:53,560 but the degree to which one can insulate oneself against 213 00:10:53,630 --> 00:10:58,360 feeling uncomfortable is probably greater now than it's ever been before. 214 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,960 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. . Right. And I remember one time for me, 215 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,880 I was in Punta Cherry, India, so this is South India, which by the way, 216 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,640 is very different from North India and East is different from West. Um, 217 00:11:09,940 --> 00:11:13,800 and I'm in the South, and this is a, uh, a city that was, uh, 218 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:18,760 basically co colonized by the French. Hmm. And so, visually, 219 00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:22,440 you're kind of in this weird surreal zone. 220 00:11:22,580 --> 00:11:26,920 As soon as you get into ponder cherry, where, um, there, 221 00:11:27,490 --> 00:11:30,400 these, the city and, and the streets are on a grid, 222 00:11:31,050 --> 00:11:34,800 which is not a, it is not fundamental to India at all, 223 00:11:35,180 --> 00:11:38,080 any kind of organic growth of, of towns or cities. Hmm. Um, 224 00:11:39,500 --> 00:11:42,520 but because of the colonial experience, in this case, with the French, 225 00:11:42,820 --> 00:11:44,120 you have this French grid, 226 00:11:44,420 --> 00:11:48,320 and you've got these little street markers all in French, and, 227 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,600 and you've got French pastry shops and, and, um, all these, 228 00:11:52,770 --> 00:11:54,960 these influences of French culture. Mm-hmm. 229 00:11:55,180 --> 00:11:58,920 So it starts to trigger almost on a limbic system, you know, the, 230 00:11:59,070 --> 00:12:01,720 this Western response to, oh, I kind of know this. 231 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,340 But then as soon as you get a little closer to this, 232 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,660 you get the Indian influence. Mm-hmm. . So you, 233 00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:13,420 you walk into the Roman Catholic Church, which itself is, is an import, right? 234 00:12:13,420 --> 00:12:16,980 Mm-hmm. , a western colonial import in India. And there's, 235 00:12:16,980 --> 00:12:18,980 there's a statue of Mary, but she's, 236 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:24,160 but she's clothed in a saffron sari. 237 00:12:25,460 --> 00:12:29,240 And, and, and she's also black mm-hmm. . And 238 00:12:31,190 --> 00:12:34,930 so you're having to start to put these two different images together, 239 00:12:35,070 --> 00:12:39,010 and you understand on a cognitive level why they are that way. Uh, 240 00:12:39,310 --> 00:12:43,330 but there's a dissonance. Hmm. And that's the way it should be. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 241 00:12:43,370 --> 00:12:45,010 , you should experience this dissonance Now, 242 00:12:45,010 --> 00:12:49,840 are you uncomfortable with it or are you comfortable with it? So, um, in, 243 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:50,580 I I, 244 00:12:50,580 --> 00:12:55,130 I'm in this hotel and it was western 245 00:12:55,710 --> 00:12:57,730 enough to make me feel comfortable. 246 00:12:58,510 --> 00:13:01,970 And so I go down in the morning to have breakfast, 247 00:13:02,670 --> 00:13:05,690 and I, I get, I sit down, they bring me coffee, 248 00:13:06,550 --> 00:13:11,510 and I see SALs on the, on the menu, and I'm going, 249 00:13:11,570 --> 00:13:16,350 oh, this would be nice, a cro salt . So I order croissants and I, 250 00:13:16,450 --> 00:13:19,950 and it comes, um, with a little bit of butter. And I don't know about you guys, 251 00:13:20,010 --> 00:13:22,470 but like buttered hot, 252 00:13:22,580 --> 00:13:27,310 warm croissants just cry for like, uh, 253 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:32,350 strawberry jam. Oh, okay. Right. Sure. Right. Yeah. I mean, 254 00:13:32,810 --> 00:13:36,910 so I go to the waiter, I go, uh, would you happen to have some strawberry jam? 255 00:13:37,690 --> 00:13:42,030 And he goes, uh, oh, yes, sir. Of course. Absolutely. And he disappears. 256 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,940 And I'm sitting there and I'm sitting there with my wife and we're talking, 257 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,840 and after a while I realized jam hasn't come. Hmm. Right. So I, 258 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,200 I get his attention again. Now, 259 00:13:54,300 --> 00:13:59,120 I'm in full dissonance here between where I know things are 260 00:13:59,180 --> 00:14:01,360 the Indian, but I'm, 261 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,880 everything in my sensory environment is telling me, oh, 262 00:14:05,340 --> 00:14:08,400 Ike should have strawberry jam with my qua salt . 263 00:14:09,220 --> 00:14:12,840 And I get his attention, and he comes over and I go, um, 264 00:14:13,540 --> 00:14:18,400 I'm just still waiting, wondering if the strawberry jams. And he goes, oh, uh, 265 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,590 let me check on that. Turns around disappears, right? Mm-hmm. . 266 00:14:22,590 --> 00:14:27,430 And my wife leans over and she goes, you know, the strawberry jam doesn't exist. 267 00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:31,510 , we're never gonna get the strawberry jam . And she's Right. 268 00:14:31,650 --> 00:14:35,710 And she's talking to the cross Culturalists. Right. . And of course, 269 00:14:35,990 --> 00:14:39,430 I knew that that was, that was the case. Hmm. Um, but I just. 270 00:14:39,430 --> 00:14:41,350 A jam consumer at this point. Well. 271 00:14:41,470 --> 00:14:45,070 I want my strawberry jam with my warm, buttery croissant. Yeah. 272 00:14:45,090 --> 00:14:47,790 And everything is telling me this is possible, and you're. 273 00:14:47,790 --> 00:14:49,790 Already tasting it, mentally tasting. 274 00:14:49,850 --> 00:14:51,840 It. Right. And so I'm asking for it. 275 00:14:52,060 --> 00:14:55,520 And what's happening is he is now behaving in an Indian way mm-hmm. 276 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,520 , where he cannot tell me that he doesn't have, 277 00:15:00,380 --> 00:15:04,040 uh, the, the, the jam to go with the qua zone. And, and he doesn't, 278 00:15:04,220 --> 00:15:06,960 but he doesn't tell me this. And he can't, 279 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:11,960 because in India and his culture, his job is to serve me. 280 00:15:12,820 --> 00:15:15,800 And if he were to admit that he didn't have it, 281 00:15:16,310 --> 00:15:18,840 then it meant that he couldn't be doing his job. Well. 282 00:15:19,660 --> 00:15:20,493 Hmm. 283 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,540 So, and, and this speaks to Indian issues of hierarchy and, 284 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,620 and rank and roles and responsibilities that people have to each other. 285 00:15:28,730 --> 00:15:32,380 Even something as simple as the roles and responsibilities between a customer 286 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,340 and, and, and a, and a waiter. Mm-hmm. . 287 00:15:36,470 --> 00:15:40,370 So I get his attention again. This is the third time now mm-hmm. , 288 00:15:40,710 --> 00:15:41,240 and. 289 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:42,970 He's just so happy to see you, . 290 00:15:43,450 --> 00:15:47,010 . It's his job to come over when, when, when I call, 291 00:15:47,350 --> 00:15:52,330 but when I make contact with him, and I, I think I said something like, 292 00:15:52,510 --> 00:15:55,250 I'm still waiting for the jam. And he. 293 00:15:55,310 --> 00:15:56,143 You said that again. 294 00:15:56,380 --> 00:15:57,130 Again. Okay. 295 00:15:57,130 --> 00:15:58,010 Right. God, you're. 296 00:15:58,010 --> 00:16:00,810 An annoying person. So we did, we did this like for three or four times. And, 297 00:16:01,390 --> 00:16:04,530 and that was something like my wife said, I think she said that , 298 00:16:04,630 --> 00:16:09,010 she said, don't be the annoying person. I know you to be. Right. 299 00:16:09,730 --> 00:16:13,330 , I, I can hear her say that. Yes. 300 00:16:13,890 --> 00:16:17,690 , he, but he's working on figuring this out in, 301 00:16:17,750 --> 00:16:20,090 in a way where he saves face, where he can, 302 00:16:20,420 --> 00:16:22,970 where he can still be doing his job in a proper way. 303 00:16:24,070 --> 00:16:28,690 He comes out with a little bowl 304 00:16:28,910 --> 00:16:33,760 of ketchup, and he says, I'm sorry, 305 00:16:34,180 --> 00:16:38,360 we don't have any more jam. We will have the strawberry jam tomorrow, 306 00:16:39,540 --> 00:16:42,640 but I have this for you now out. 307 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:46,193 And you did what? 308 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,900 No, I got it. Okay. You're right. Okay. It, it was basically, 309 00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:54,220 thank you very much, and Sure. And, and thank you. Yeah. And, 310 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,940 and, and so in that little moment for me, 311 00:16:57,940 --> 00:17:02,490 there was this kind of epiphany, this revelation of this, 312 00:17:02,630 --> 00:17:07,050 of the degree to which you can have cultural dissonance and feel the discomfort, 313 00:17:07,950 --> 00:17:12,450 um, even to a point where your expectations have to be reset. 314 00:17:13,030 --> 00:17:17,410 Um, and, and where your reactions to things have to be reflected on, 315 00:17:17,870 --> 00:17:21,410 you know, and, and I admit I didn't do a very good job in that moment mm-hmm. 316 00:17:21,450 --> 00:17:23,610 . Uh, but it was all about just a. 317 00:17:24,150 --> 00:17:25,810 You were just trying to get what you wanted to eat. 318 00:17:26,090 --> 00:17:28,610 A quas and a and, and, but there's jam, 319 00:17:29,030 --> 00:17:33,930 but there's this deeper cross-cultural issue that gets raised mm-hmm. 320 00:17:33,970 --> 00:17:35,730 , you know, and, um, 321 00:17:36,660 --> 00:17:41,490 about traditional Indian expectations about roles and 322 00:17:41,810 --> 00:17:45,410 responsibilities, who's taking responsibility for it, uh, 323 00:17:46,950 --> 00:17:50,720 and, and adjusting to that, right. 324 00:17:50,860 --> 00:17:55,600 So that you can still have your authentic experiences, but it, 325 00:17:55,780 --> 00:18:00,560 but also understand that they ha they may come with all sorts of modifications 326 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,560 that you, that you cannot predict. 327 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:03,753 Hmm. Right. Yeah. 328 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:14,280 I have a question off of that from a few ways that you've addressed his actions. 329 00:18:14,750 --> 00:18:18,600 Okay. Um, the, the, the, the main one being, 330 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,030 where do you find the, 331 00:18:22,210 --> 00:18:26,710 the most reliable definition of really traditional 332 00:18:28,030 --> 00:18:31,150 cultural values? Because in, in many ways, 333 00:18:31,150 --> 00:18:33,990 like what you were just describing sounds like, and, 334 00:18:34,010 --> 00:18:38,430 and you had mentioned it comes out of the colonialism, uh, uh, that, 335 00:18:38,430 --> 00:18:42,190 that whether it was the French or the English in the area, and, um, 336 00:18:42,290 --> 00:18:45,670 it builds off of that. So he's got this layer of, 337 00:18:46,010 --> 00:18:50,790 of social layer that he is in, then his behavior is gonna be dic dictated Yeah. 338 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,950 Gonna be dictated by that. But does that also come to you from, 339 00:18:56,300 --> 00:19:01,110 come to them from a prior to the Western influence? 340 00:19:01,570 --> 00:19:01,790 Oh. 341 00:19:01,790 --> 00:19:03,390 Yes, absolutely. I mean, I, 342 00:19:03,470 --> 00:19:08,070 I inherent to Indian culture is this idea of hierarchy, rank, and even. 343 00:19:08,070 --> 00:19:10,870 Before they were occupied by the westerns most. 344 00:19:11,110 --> 00:19:13,990 Profoundly. Yes. Okay. So if you look at Hinduism mm-hmm. 345 00:19:14,030 --> 00:19:16,830 in India is where Hinduism began. Mm-hmm. . 346 00:19:16,890 --> 00:19:21,630 And for 90% of the history, um, it, 347 00:19:21,650 --> 00:19:26,190 it is a Hindu influence culture, right? Yeah. More or less in different areas, 348 00:19:26,690 --> 00:19:28,750 and more or less at different times. Sure. 349 00:19:28,770 --> 00:19:30,870 But Hinduism had a profound effect on it. 350 00:19:30,930 --> 00:19:35,150 And it's the only place where Hinduism actually still is as profoundly 351 00:19:35,150 --> 00:19:38,070 influential mm-hmm. in the entire world. Hmm. It's, 352 00:19:38,090 --> 00:19:42,430 it was the indigenous religion of, of, of India. Yeah. 353 00:19:42,430 --> 00:19:43,270 Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 354 00:19:43,310 --> 00:19:45,270 from all intents and purposes and different forms, 355 00:19:45,370 --> 00:19:49,470 but that's what it was. Hmm. And it emphasizes hierarchy and rank. Mm. You know, 356 00:19:49,470 --> 00:19:50,790 you've got thousands of gods, 357 00:19:50,790 --> 00:19:54,470 and each of these gods is responsible to another God for another thing. Mm-hmm. 358 00:19:54,690 --> 00:19:59,590 And each one has a function and a role in making sure the universe continues the 359 00:19:59,590 --> 00:20:02,550 way it's supposed to continue. Sure. Mm-hmm. . Okay. And these, 360 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:04,710 these gods are ranked, you can see them on the, 361 00:20:04,850 --> 00:20:09,550 in the temples literally ranked in the, in these huge, uh, uh, 362 00:20:10,150 --> 00:20:12,030 triangles of, of pyramids almost. 363 00:20:12,030 --> 00:20:14,390 Mm-hmm. and going through the importance at the top, at. 364 00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:19,150 The top, the trilogy mm-hmm. the three main gods. And, and, and, 365 00:20:19,250 --> 00:20:23,230 and so this idea of everyone plays a role. Yeah. 366 00:20:23,250 --> 00:20:25,030 And you really can't change your role. 367 00:20:25,530 --> 00:20:28,830 You can only change your karma for the next time around. Mm-hmm. 368 00:20:29,530 --> 00:20:33,110 Now is an opportunity to change your karma for the next time. Mm-hmm. 369 00:20:33,450 --> 00:20:36,630 But don't expect any change in your position this time. Yeah. 370 00:20:36,850 --> 00:20:37,683 That's convenient. 371 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,870 Which is sort of taking us back to that, that idiom, which is that yeah, 372 00:20:41,870 --> 00:20:45,390 everything will work out in the end, but when is the end? The end, right? 373 00:20:45,780 --> 00:20:46,613 Yeah. 374 00:20:46,770 --> 00:20:47,603 And the end, 375 00:20:47,660 --> 00:20:51,160 you should be that you do so much good karma that you are released from the 376 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,000 cycle of reincarnation. There you go. Okay. And, and that you no long, 377 00:20:55,060 --> 00:20:56,160 that's the end. Yeah. 378 00:20:56,190 --> 00:20:57,023 Okay. 379 00:20:57,460 --> 00:20:58,293 And, uh, 380 00:20:58,460 --> 00:21:03,280 but that whole idea of reincarnation and of fatalism and of hierarchy 381 00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:05,320 and roles and responsibilities Sure. 382 00:21:05,870 --> 00:21:10,840 That plays itself out in every small detail and every major detail of life 383 00:21:10,980 --> 00:21:15,040 in India. And so that tradition is profound and strong. And if the, 384 00:21:15,140 --> 00:21:19,200 if French colonialism only emphasized that to, to an even greater degree. Yeah. 385 00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:20,760 Well, then you have even more of it. 386 00:21:21,450 --> 00:21:24,640 Maybe they're just symbiotic. When the, uh, when the French and the, 387 00:21:24,660 --> 00:21:28,080 and the British arrived, um, you know, it, 388 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,920 with the intent of taking over, they, um, 389 00:21:31,150 --> 00:21:33,840 they found a symbiotic relationship with the, 390 00:21:33,910 --> 00:21:37,080 with the entire structure that was already there. Could explain that. Right. 391 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:37,400 For sure. Yeah. 392 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:42,040 There was, there was a confluence of, of these two traditions Sure. 393 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,640 That came from two different places, very different. 394 00:21:45,060 --> 00:21:47,360 But at they did come together, 395 00:21:48,090 --> 00:21:51,440 there was this tradition of hierarchy and rank. Yes. Yeah. Now, I'm, 396 00:21:51,500 --> 00:21:55,120 I'm not saying that it's as, as strong in France as it was in India. 397 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,800 I think in India is much deeper and much more profound, actually. 398 00:21:58,810 --> 00:21:59,680 Uhhuh Okay. 399 00:22:00,270 --> 00:22:04,720 Sure. So they, yeah. So in pond cherry, yes. It was part of, 400 00:22:04,910 --> 00:22:06,120 part of traditional Indian. 401 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:09,800 Culture Yeah, yeah. Interest before the French got there. Okay. 402 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,970 Okay. But, but you are raising an interesting point too, Tom, in that, wow. 403 00:22:13,970 --> 00:22:17,090 That's one in a row for me. . Well done. Thank you. Lemme mark that down. 404 00:22:17,490 --> 00:22:18,323 . 405 00:22:18,510 --> 00:22:20,330 To what degree can, 406 00:22:20,670 --> 00:22:24,410 can we expect cultures to be less traditional, uh, 407 00:22:24,590 --> 00:22:28,490 or more traditional, you know? Yeah. Are they changing profoundly and quickly, 408 00:22:29,310 --> 00:22:33,210 uh, or is that change something that is happening, 409 00:22:33,210 --> 00:22:37,130 but it's not really going to have a major effect on 410 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,290 traditional culture? Right. That's a question. Right, right. And, 411 00:22:42,430 --> 00:22:47,420 and I, the interesting answer to that, I think, is that there re the, 412 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,260 the research is showing that at a very deep level, 413 00:22:51,300 --> 00:22:53,900 cultures really don't change very much. Mm-hmm. 414 00:22:53,950 --> 00:22:55,140 Right. Okay. So. 415 00:22:55,490 --> 00:22:58,700 Glac glacially, yeah. You can look at, you know, 416 00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:02,380 the headlines and or take a trip somewhere and see something happening and 417 00:23:02,380 --> 00:23:06,300 observe it or, or say, well, I mean, let's use China as an example. 418 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:11,300 The last 30 years, I mean, China's profoundly changed, right. 419 00:23:11,770 --> 00:23:15,340 Superficially, economically, politically, 420 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:20,450 but fundamentally culturally. Hmm. That's a question. 421 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,970 Well, the roots are much deeper in those situations. 422 00:23:23,110 --> 00:23:25,810 Is is what you were explaining a moment ago. The deeper. 423 00:23:25,810 --> 00:23:29,570 The roots, the slower to change Sure. At a fundamental level. 424 00:23:30,020 --> 00:23:30,800 Right. 425 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:35,760 Because that fundamental level is so ingrained that I don't know 426 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,320 that, is it even seen as a level or just the starting place? 427 00:23:39,540 --> 00:23:42,000 No, I like to think it isn't. 'cause that's my job. Right. 428 00:23:42,030 --> 00:23:42,863 Okay. . 429 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,600 I think we've got plenty of people who will talk about, you know, well, 430 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,120 there's a political reason why pe why Indians or Chinese or Brazilians do X, Y, 431 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,040 Z. Uh, and, and economists will say, no, 432 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,840 there's an economic reason why this is being done. Right. Uh, 433 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,520 but few people are saying there's a cultural reason, you know, 434 00:24:01,620 --> 00:24:06,480 and I saw a cultural reason in my issue with my al 435 00:24:06,540 --> 00:24:07,480 and my Marmal aid. 436 00:24:07,830 --> 00:24:08,800 Sure. And, and, 437 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,400 and Kate make the argument that taking those two directions that they're saying, 438 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,660 well, it comes from an economic region, uh, reason or whatever, putting, 439 00:24:16,660 --> 00:24:19,660 when you put them together, you get, start to get to your cultural regions. 440 00:24:20,380 --> 00:24:24,100 I think so. Yeah. And I think that can be seen in interpreting the headlines, 441 00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:28,180 and it can also be seen in the smallest moments of sitting down and wanting a 442 00:24:28,340 --> 00:24:29,300 croissant. Sure. 443 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,740 So, Dean, from your many experiences in India, 444 00:24:33,210 --> 00:24:38,200 when are other times when you saw those traditional values 445 00:24:39,020 --> 00:24:40,120 deeply ingrained. 446 00:24:41,010 --> 00:24:43,080 Everywhere? All the time. . 447 00:24:45,190 --> 00:24:48,120 Okay, well, that's all the time. And no podcast, . 448 00:24:50,020 --> 00:24:51,080 Um, well. 449 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,680 Here's, here's an interesting extrapolation from that. Uhhuh, right now, 450 00:24:54,710 --> 00:24:58,160 fast forward from these thousands of years of, uh, 451 00:24:58,420 --> 00:25:00,640 of Hindu influence, right? Mm-hmm. . 452 00:25:00,780 --> 00:25:05,640 And then you have a situation this where colonialism and then modern economics 453 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,560 and and traditions, cultural traditions, all come together. 454 00:25:09,030 --> 00:25:13,520 What was it back about 30, 40 years ago, um, in Boal, India? 455 00:25:13,950 --> 00:25:16,480 Anybody remember this? I'm going back pretty far. Be. 456 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,000 Paul. Yes. Yeah. I I know where you're going. 457 00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:21,720 Okay. There was an explosion Yes. Right at a chemical factory. I think it. 458 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:23,200 Was, it was a Dow chemical, wasn't it? 459 00:25:23,460 --> 00:25:24,800 Was it Dow? Okay. So it was. 460 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,920 Well, I, I i I, I shouldn't say that because I don't know for sure. I. 461 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:28,400 Think you may be. 462 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:29,960 Right, but I believe that's correct. 463 00:25:30,090 --> 00:25:34,480 Right. And it was a massive explosion, a lot of deaths, and it was a. 464 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:35,593 Horrible scenario. 465 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,680 Horrible. The, you know, there was a lot of litigation after this. 466 00:25:38,870 --> 00:25:40,120 This happened. Oh, yeah. Right. 467 00:25:40,540 --> 00:25:44,760 And in the papers that came out from the, from the, uh, the court papers, 468 00:25:45,820 --> 00:25:49,440 I'm, I'm oversimplifying here 'cause it's a complicated case, right? Yeah. 469 00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:50,933 But basically, 470 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,900 the management of the plant was saying, 471 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,820 nobody told us that there was a problem in the plant. 472 00:26:02,380 --> 00:26:07,160 And when they, and the management was US American, and they, 473 00:26:07,190 --> 00:26:09,800 they were playing this naive role and, and, 474 00:26:09,860 --> 00:26:14,800 and probably tell saying what they truly observed to be the 475 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,920 case. Look, nobody told us there was a problem in the, in, 476 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,440 in the plant had we known about a problem in the plant, you know, 477 00:26:20,460 --> 00:26:23,240 we are off on the other side of the world and no, 478 00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:26,600 nobody's telling us about this. And the Indians were saying, 479 00:26:26,940 --> 00:26:31,680 that's not our job to tell our bosses and our supervisors and our 480 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,880 managers that there's a problem in the plant. 481 00:26:35,580 --> 00:26:40,440 That's their responsibility as managers to know that there's a 482 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,600 problem mm-hmm. and to tell us what to do to fix it. Mm-hmm. 483 00:26:45,670 --> 00:26:46,503 Huh. 484 00:26:46,670 --> 00:26:50,250 So, of course, you, you have a big gap. So one could say, oh, look, 485 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,330 both sides are trying to escape responsibility for this. And, 486 00:26:54,330 --> 00:26:56,930 and there's probably a lot of truth to that. Sure. 487 00:26:57,670 --> 00:27:02,610 But the fact that you had this phenomenon of discussion mm-hmm. 488 00:27:02,650 --> 00:27:03,570 , that the, 489 00:27:03,570 --> 00:27:08,170 that the discussion took this form where a defense was actually trying to be 490 00:27:08,170 --> 00:27:09,730 made by saying, no, 491 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,690 it's management's job to know if there's a problem and to tell us about it so we 492 00:27:14,690 --> 00:27:18,050 could fix it. Mm-hmm. that challenged the, 493 00:27:18,070 --> 00:27:21,170 the whole American way of doing business. Yeah. It was like, wait a minute, 494 00:27:21,670 --> 00:27:25,250 as a manager, this is the boss talking as the manager, 495 00:27:25,350 --> 00:27:27,050 you're supposed to tell me if there's a problem, 496 00:27:27,270 --> 00:27:31,170 you're supposed to tell me what you need so that we can fix it. 497 00:27:32,110 --> 00:27:33,690 And nobody, well, not nobody, 498 00:27:33,830 --> 00:27:37,770 but the Indians were making the case that there's not my job. It's. 499 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,130 Your job. Interesting. Yeah. That it goes the, well, 500 00:27:40,130 --> 00:27:44,770 we had two different directions of flow going on, and they were so, 501 00:27:44,770 --> 00:27:48,850 they were going away from each other, leaving an opening that ended up tragic. 502 00:27:49,270 --> 00:27:54,170 And, and both positions reflected coincidentally, 503 00:27:54,170 --> 00:27:58,090 quote unquote Yeah. The cultural roots. Mm, sure. Right. 504 00:27:58,190 --> 00:28:01,770 One looking at the roles and responsibilities based on hierarchy. 505 00:28:02,430 --> 00:28:05,530 And the other one looking at, well, let's, 506 00:28:05,620 --> 00:28:09,370 let's smash the hierarchy just 'cause you work for me, 507 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:10,833 boss speaking, 508 00:28:11,370 --> 00:28:15,650 I expect you to tell me when you need something or to tell me if there's a 509 00:28:15,650 --> 00:28:19,650 problem, or let's work together on fixing it. That's not my job. 510 00:28:19,650 --> 00:28:21,530 That's your job. You're the manager. Right. 511 00:28:22,060 --> 00:28:22,893 Right. 512 00:28:24,150 --> 00:28:28,370 Two one anti hierarchical. One hierarchical. Yeah. Yeah. 513 00:28:28,370 --> 00:28:31,910 And so the fact that they, they were coincidentally used as, 514 00:28:31,910 --> 00:28:36,750 as the cultural justifications for their positions in this legal battle over who 515 00:28:36,750 --> 00:28:37,990 is responsible. Yeah. 516 00:28:38,100 --> 00:28:42,950 Indicates to me that culture has a profound effect on what goes on 517 00:28:43,390 --> 00:28:46,310 e even when it happens in the headlines, like at Bo Powell, 518 00:28:47,090 --> 00:28:50,630 or happens to me when I want my mama laid from somebody who can't give it to me. 519 00:28:50,780 --> 00:28:51,670 Well, sure. Right. 520 00:28:52,530 --> 00:28:56,470 But that lack of understanding of it can lead to problems of, um, 521 00:28:57,180 --> 00:29:01,110 massive consequences. Massive consequences. It, it, it, 522 00:29:01,210 --> 00:29:02,710 I'm talking about the one you didn't get your jam. 523 00:29:02,730 --> 00:29:03,910 That's the what I'm talking about. Well. 524 00:29:03,910 --> 00:29:06,830 That, and in that moment, that was stakes in that moment. 525 00:29:06,830 --> 00:29:08,590 That was stakes involved. And to assume. 526 00:29:09,020 --> 00:29:13,190 That wasn't an international incident, , it was for some, and. 527 00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:17,990 To, and to assume that ketchup was gonna take the place of marmalade, 528 00:29:18,210 --> 00:29:20,630 you know? Yeah. Strawberry jam or, or. 529 00:29:20,780 --> 00:29:25,070 Well, well, ketchup. What's interesting too is, and, and I don't know this so, 530 00:29:25,290 --> 00:29:27,550 but would, would the ketchup have, 531 00:29:28,050 --> 00:29:32,190 has perhaps the ketchup sat at a very high level 532 00:29:32,850 --> 00:29:35,070 of, and especially for an American, 533 00:29:35,500 --> 00:29:39,630 that the assumption was there that ketchup would be an answer, 534 00:29:39,910 --> 00:29:43,520 a solution, a a because he's American. 535 00:29:43,780 --> 00:29:48,480 He was trying to the best of his capabilities to figure out what might I like. 536 00:29:48,670 --> 00:29:49,190 Yeah. 537 00:29:49,190 --> 00:29:49,500 Yeah. 538 00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:50,280 To solve my. 539 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,000 Problem. And they put ketchup on everything. Those was American Americans, 540 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:54,560 those American, yes. 541 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:55,250 Right. Yeah. 542 00:29:55,250 --> 00:29:59,000 Right. My father did all the time. I, I literally on, on, 543 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,800 I cannot think of anything. He did not put ketchup on. Hmm. 544 00:30:03,340 --> 00:30:07,600 My father was not Indian. Um, he was . I'm not, 545 00:30:07,700 --> 00:30:12,200 I'm not a ketchup fan. Yeah. Uh, it's, it's fine. 546 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,720 . It's, sorry, Hinz. Well, that they're not, so we could say whatever. 547 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,000 Yeah. We can say whatever we want, . 548 00:30:22,420 --> 00:30:27,120 Anyway, that, that's it. It's, it really is, I think very much shows the, um, 549 00:30:27,900 --> 00:30:32,320 the, the what happens in the scenario of things going different directions and 550 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,160 people's expectations, regardless of it's India and the United States, or, 551 00:30:36,180 --> 00:30:37,680 or what the cultures are like, that, 552 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,840 that there's gonna be separations of the way you approach things. 553 00:30:40,980 --> 00:30:44,440 And then those separations are gonna relieve openings for problems. 554 00:30:45,580 --> 00:30:48,260 Absolutely. And that's why we have to understand these Yeah. The, 555 00:30:48,260 --> 00:30:51,020 the these as the aspect of the impact that, 556 00:30:51,020 --> 00:30:53,860 that traditional culture has on our behaviors, 557 00:30:53,860 --> 00:30:58,140 even though today are behaviors that we encounter can be very, 558 00:30:58,380 --> 00:31:02,940 a complex combination of so many things. Yeah. Not just the, 559 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,540 the traditional culture. No. US American is a traditional US American. 560 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:08,050 If we were, 561 00:31:08,050 --> 00:31:12,300 we'd be walking around with either Puritan hats or African as African African 562 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,260 slaves, you know, but we are influenced by these, 563 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,620 by these fundamentals of American culture. And the same in India. 564 00:31:28,070 --> 00:31:30,900 We're in another town in India, again, it, 565 00:31:31,090 --> 00:31:34,540 this was in the south at this massive temple, 566 00:31:35,060 --> 00:31:39,780 Hindu temple in most cases, right? Mm-hmm. . And, and, um, 567 00:31:40,270 --> 00:31:42,300 every temple has, its, uh, 568 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,910 has its elephant and usually has they're sacred 569 00:31:48,180 --> 00:31:53,130 cows. Um, and some of these temples are so huge that, 570 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,090 that you can't even see the elephant. Oh, look, 571 00:31:56,090 --> 00:31:57,810 there's an elephant in the corner. Wow. 572 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,930 Well, but this, we should talk about the elephant in the corner. 573 00:32:01,020 --> 00:32:04,810 Right. But there's thousands of people walking through this temple, 574 00:32:05,310 --> 00:32:06,890 and you're just amongst them. One of. 575 00:32:06,890 --> 00:32:08,090 Them could be an elephant, and. 576 00:32:08,150 --> 00:32:11,010 You don't even see the elephant. Oh, look, there's an elephant in the corner, 577 00:32:11,450 --> 00:32:14,690 . And then there's all these cows, and of course, cows give milk. 578 00:32:14,710 --> 00:32:17,450 And so cows are sacred mm-hmm. , and therefore, and, 579 00:32:17,450 --> 00:32:22,010 and we don't want to eat the cows so we don't eat much meat. And, and, um, 580 00:32:22,110 --> 00:32:25,570 and the cows are, are allowed to wander through streets in, 581 00:32:25,710 --> 00:32:27,890 in many cases mm-hmm. , um, 582 00:32:28,310 --> 00:32:32,810 and all of this being a challenge to a western concept of how we organize 583 00:32:32,810 --> 00:32:37,650 ourselves. But anyway, I'm in this temple and, um, it, the, 584 00:32:37,710 --> 00:32:39,220 uh, person I'm with says, you know, 585 00:32:39,220 --> 00:32:43,960 you could walk up to these cows and in fact you should feed them and you'll, 586 00:32:44,100 --> 00:32:47,840 you'll get a blessing because, uh, there was a priest nearby, 587 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,960 and if you feed the cow, you, you'll get blessed. Um, so let's, 588 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,600 let's give it a try. The problem was to enter a Hindu temple in India, 589 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,280 you have to take your shoes off. Mm-hmm. 590 00:32:58,320 --> 00:32:58,760 . Yeah. 591 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,080 Alright. So you leave your shoes out on the, out of the front of a temple. 592 00:33:02,500 --> 00:33:06,000 And as you walk up to these cows, as well as to walk up to the elephant, 593 00:33:06,500 --> 00:33:09,880 you had to walk through all of the straw and all of the dung mm-hmm. 594 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,080 , that was, that was there in their section mm-hmm. . 595 00:33:14,380 --> 00:33:18,790 And, um, so I'm going, okay, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm, 596 00:33:18,890 --> 00:33:19,723 I'm ready for this. 597 00:33:20,210 --> 00:33:24,070 And there were several people with me who didn't want to do this, uh, 598 00:33:24,070 --> 00:33:27,230 because they didn't want, they, they had, didn't have their shoes on. 599 00:33:27,230 --> 00:33:30,110 They didn't wanna walk through the Don. So, um, 600 00:33:30,530 --> 00:33:34,350 the person I was with tried to reassure them and said, no, 601 00:33:34,510 --> 00:33:39,310 but this is perfectly fine because it's, um, antiseptic. Mm. Um, 602 00:33:39,420 --> 00:33:43,630 that the dung, the dung has an antiseptic quality to it. Hmm. And it, 603 00:33:43,630 --> 00:33:47,870 that's one of the reasons why the cows are sacred and we love them, uh, 604 00:33:47,870 --> 00:33:49,190 because they're health giving. Hmm. 605 00:33:49,190 --> 00:33:53,510 And this is one of the health giving aspects of the cow. Hmm. And of course, 606 00:33:53,510 --> 00:33:56,830 this is totally contrary to western medicine. Right. Um, 607 00:33:56,830 --> 00:34:00,670 because basically walking in shit is not a healthy thing to do. Mm-hmm. 608 00:34:00,710 --> 00:34:05,700 , . And here, now one could say, if the, 609 00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:08,300 if this created enough cultural dissonance where you, you, 610 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:13,740 in the absence of facts or an openness to an alternative way of looking at 611 00:34:13,740 --> 00:34:14,573 things, 612 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,780 you get defensive about your position because you don't wanna step in shit and 613 00:34:18,780 --> 00:34:20,260 you say, I'm not doing it. 614 00:34:20,970 --> 00:34:22,220 Okay. Yep. Yeah. 615 00:34:22,240 --> 00:34:25,180 And a number of people with me said they weren't gonna do it. Sure. 616 00:34:26,990 --> 00:34:27,823 Afterwards, 617 00:34:28,380 --> 00:34:33,250 I did a little bit of research on the antiseptic quality of cow 618 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:34,450 dung mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . 619 00:34:34,950 --> 00:34:38,570 And there's a lot of research to indicate that it is Hmm. 620 00:34:38,990 --> 00:34:43,900 And that yes, it can be, um, not good for you, 621 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:45,700 it or for your health, 622 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:50,620 if you have open source and certain germs that can be 623 00:34:50,620 --> 00:34:55,020 associated with kung mm-hmm. get into your system that way. 624 00:34:55,300 --> 00:34:56,300 'cause you can get parasites. 625 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:57,940 Oh yeah, sure. Uhhuh . 626 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,340 But there are antiseptic qualities too, which is part of the, 627 00:35:02,570 --> 00:35:05,340 part of the belief system in, uh, Ayurvedics, 628 00:35:05,350 --> 00:35:09,020 which is in the Indian of the Indian health, 629 00:35:09,330 --> 00:35:14,220 basically an Indian health system mm-hmm. , but an Eastern Indian, 630 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,700 not western medical tradition, an eastern medical tradition. Hmm. 631 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,180 And there's evidence of this, huh. And she wasn't wrong. 632 00:35:22,370 --> 00:35:26,400 Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, I, the, 633 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:27,920 the big question then is, and I, 634 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,480 I think you may have mentioned this experience briefly in our shoes and 635 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,200 Argentinian pink underwear episode seem to remember this, 636 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,600 but I don't remember how it ended. So the big question is, did you walk in. 637 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,560 Couch it? Oh, I did, of course. Okay. Yeah. Great. I, I did. 638 00:35:42,820 --> 00:35:47,040 So I redeemed myself for my bad behavior over my croissant and, 639 00:35:47,340 --> 00:35:51,280 and good and marm lady to cherry. Okay. And, 640 00:35:52,660 --> 00:35:56,320 and I was, and, and it's interesting too, Tom, 641 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,840 because now that I'm thinking about this Yeah. 642 00:35:59,420 --> 00:36:03,080 Ponded cherry happened at the beginning of my trip. Hmm. 643 00:36:03,260 --> 00:36:05,240 And this happened toward the end. Hmm. 644 00:36:05,380 --> 00:36:10,280 So where I began to feel more comfortable with whatever dissonance was going 645 00:36:10,300 --> 00:36:10,700 on, 646 00:36:10,700 --> 00:36:15,400 and be open to the possibility that it may be an alternate 647 00:36:15,540 --> 00:36:17,280 way of doing things, right? 648 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:18,360 Mm-hmm. , right? Mm-hmm. . 649 00:36:18,820 --> 00:36:20,680 And not necessarily defend against it. 650 00:36:20,970 --> 00:36:22,120 Right. Sure. 651 00:36:22,540 --> 00:36:25,640 So I went through that, that cross-cultural process. Mm-hmm. . 652 00:36:26,310 --> 00:36:27,143 Okay. 653 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:28,580 And, and to my knowledge, 654 00:36:28,620 --> 00:36:32,740 I have no parasites and I have no downsides to the experience. Yeah. Yeah. 655 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:34,860 In fact, I feel healthier than I've ever felt. 656 00:36:34,930 --> 00:36:37,860 Well, you do have a certain odor about you, but, um, other, 657 00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:41,140 we're not sure that anything tot you haven't lost your feet off, or did, did. 658 00:36:41,140 --> 00:36:42,300 You take your shoes off or. 659 00:36:42,300 --> 00:36:42,660 Keep your. 660 00:36:42,660 --> 00:36:45,900 Shoes on? No, you can't end of a temple without taking your shoes off. Ah. 661 00:36:46,010 --> 00:36:47,220 Okay. Okay. That's, yeah. 662 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,940 So in order to be blessed, I would definitely do it without shoes in, in, 663 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:51,793 in order to. 664 00:36:51,820 --> 00:36:53,580 I think I would've done it without my shoes on anyway. 665 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:58,260 In order to feed the cow, to get the blessing, you had to walk through this. 666 00:36:58,260 --> 00:37:02,250 Gotcha. Sure. Was it like, percentage wise, 667 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:07,370 were you about like 50%, 75, 90, 668 00:37:08,010 --> 00:37:11,530 a hundred percent that you were going to step in cow manure. Oh. 669 00:37:11,530 --> 00:37:14,530 You were gonna step in cow. This is like, this was, this was. 670 00:37:14,750 --> 00:37:16,410 It was gonna happen for you. This was a hundred percent. 671 00:37:16,830 --> 00:37:19,650 It had to be. Yeah. Yeah. You couldn't get to the animal. 672 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,130 Otherwise to Yeah, that's what I meant. There's so much Yeah. 673 00:37:23,130 --> 00:37:24,930 That you're gonna step in. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 674 00:37:24,930 --> 00:37:27,130 Okay. And it was, it was healthy, but it. 675 00:37:27,130 --> 00:37:28,970 Sounds like there were, you were with others who did not. 676 00:37:29,110 --> 00:37:30,770 That's right. Yeah. Okay. Okay. 677 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:32,610 Were you the only one in your group that. 678 00:37:32,670 --> 00:37:33,110 Did it? 679 00:37:33,110 --> 00:37:35,690 No. Okay. Have those people all been cursed? They're. 680 00:37:35,690 --> 00:37:36,160 All dead. 681 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,450 Okay. Yeah. Yeah. good. . 682 00:37:39,590 --> 00:37:43,170 No, no. He's saying good, good for the people who, who didn't go. 683 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,530 They were cursed. That's right. And he's saying good, 684 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,410 good for the ones who went, died. 685 00:37:51,010 --> 00:37:54,330 all, all not true. And not, uh, 686 00:37:55,030 --> 00:37:59,970 or maybe whos . Um, anyway, it's well, fascinating. 687 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,210 It's time to mm-hmm. It's time to wrap this one up. Mm-hmm. But, um, um, uh. 688 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:05,050 It's. 689 00:38:05,050 --> 00:38:06,210 Nothing better to wrap up on than. 690 00:38:06,210 --> 00:38:09,290 Than cow is. It is it is it, is it because we've, um. 691 00:38:10,490 --> 00:38:14,220 Once you've done the cow crap mo, uh, story, there's nowhere else to go. 692 00:38:14,620 --> 00:38:18,420 . That's an old saying. It's an idiom. I think so. Um, . 693 00:38:18,420 --> 00:38:21,460 Well, everything will turn out the end. And if it's idiot, and if, 694 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,860 and if things aren't, is the end working out. It's not the end, 695 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,300 but it did turn out. So it's the end. 696 00:38:27,370 --> 00:38:29,820 It's the end. Yeah. . Well, thank you, Dean. 697 00:38:30,630 --> 00:38:31,463 Thank you Tom. 698 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:36,620 And, uh, thank you Torin. Sure. I'm gonna go take my shoes off and I don't know, 699 00:38:36,780 --> 00:38:38,900 , would you have done it? Are you gonna to go walk in? 700 00:38:39,260 --> 00:38:40,540 I would've done it. Would, I would done, would, would, would you have done it? 701 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,260 Oh yeah. With a, in a heartbeat. Well, thank you very much, Dean, 702 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:48,540 for today's and, um, Torin. Thank you. And, um, we are at the end of, 703 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,340 um, oops. Oops. 704 00:38:51,290 --> 00:38:54,180 Your culture showing smell ya. 705 00:39:05,090 --> 00:39:08,380 Okay, listen, the way to get hold of us is, oops. 706 00:39:08,380 --> 00:39:12,980 Culture show@gmail.com and our Twitter handle is, oops. 707 00:39:13,010 --> 00:39:16,900 Culture show. Whether this is the first episode or the third episode, 708 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,660 or whatever episode that you've listened to, you should really subscribe. 709 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,580 That's the best way to go. Really, honestly, I know what I'm talking about. 710 00:39:24,810 --> 00:39:25,520 Alright, 711 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:30,260 so just subscribe through iTunes or through wherever you get your podcast 712 00:39:30,450 --> 00:39:31,980 from. Subscribe. Thank you.