Welcome to the reboot of the new media
show, and it's great to have you here
with me. And
today on the relaunch
of the show,
but we're going to,
be in a little bit of a different
format,
than what the conventional approach has been. I've
got, Rob Walsh, the VP of Libsyn with
me. And so he's,
gonna gonna join me on this journey as
we kind of move to the next
stage of the
the new media show. And so, Rob, welcome
back. I guess the the last time I
did this new media show, you were on
it as well. Thanks, Rob, for having me
on. Appreciate it. It's been a couple of
months since Todd left us, and and it's
been a a process
to rebuild this
show
and to have it, kind of ready for
a relaunch. I mean, at the time, I
didn't really know if I was going to
bring the show back or not. It didn't
I didn't know if it was gonna be
even even possible. So it's
really
a a miracle to some degree that that
we're back doing it here. I'm glad I'm
glad you're relaunching. Yeah. Well, it's great that
it's coming back. And and so what I'm
hoping to do with the show here is
talk about some some
topics that that are top of mind right
now, you know, like the podcast hall theme
and and kind of what what's going on
with the whole video side, AI side, and
what that,
how that's impacting
the podcasting space. So, Rob, what's your thought
on the whole hall of fame? Is there
any comments that that they have? It's coming
back.
I'm gonna be having 12 new inductees
They're hopefully gonna be announced here in the
next,
day or so, but it's it's really exciting
to to see that come back as well.
So any thoughts? Yeah. I mean, first, I'm
I'm excited that coming back, I'm always happy
to see the new inductees.
Yeah. You know,
good class from the ones I've seen so
far.
One I'm good friends with. So very happy
for him. I don't know. We'll we'll talk
about names here in a little bit. But,
yeah, I I it it's nice to see
it moving forward. It is nice to see
it being back to a yearly cadence and
and really happy that podcast is, you know,
stepping up and Yeah. Making it part of
of that show. Yeah. I think it's my
personal thought is it's,
it's something that's really important to the medium
to recognize those folks that
had a had a foundational
billing for for this medium that we all
love. And and so it's great to,
always always do this event. It's always a
lot of work.
There's always a lot of, trying to coordinate
people flying in or if they're gonna be
there, if they're gonna do doing doing a
video.
But it's
I would say at the end, it's always
worth it. So and that's that's why we
do it. So well,
let's kinda move on here and talk a
little bit about some of the other topics
that that we're gonna talk about on the
show today. And that's kinda some what can
be oftentimes
controversial
numbers
around ad spend and the business side of
podcasting is one of the things
that, you know, and Rob, you know, chime
in on this too
is is that it it feels like podcasting
has kinda grown up of sorts, and it's
it's now being seen increasingly
as the media now. Right? So we've spent
most of our lives, both of us,
seeing mainstream media
really kinda kinda dominate the media landscape. And
podcasting has always been this kinda like this
rebel upstart, but but now we've kind of
taken over that leading mantle
of sorts
in the podcasting space. And so
what's your thought on that? Is that the
same thing that you're seeing, or is it
just something I'm seeing?
Obviously, something that I'm seeing too. And, you
know, we had an election a year ago
that was dominated
by podcast appearances
and lack thereof. I mean, definitely helped,
determine a present.
And then on top of that, you have
one podcaster who's bigger than all, you know,
CNN,
Fox News,
NewsNation,
MSNBC
combined his audience's longer. So
what is mainstream media when you've got Joe
Rogan, who's
larger than Anderson Cooper?
That's right. Well, and it's probably not even
close, actually. And there's a handful of other
creators, and I've got a list that I'm
gonna share a little bit later in the
show that will kind
of run down what those top 10 shows
are right now at Spotify and even Apple
and YouTube. So, you know, and it's not,
what I think all of us would necessarily
like to see, but it's the, it's the
reality that we see right now, at least
in the numbers that are being shared publicly.
And
which is always
a question mark too,
is that each of those platforms kind of
has,
reasons for doing things. I'll just put it
kindly that way.
So, so anyway,
I don't know, Rob, what's what's the big
things that you're seeing
on the growth side that's really
Advertising side is it's it's more and more
advertisers are coming in.
Yeah. And
we're getting I think we're starting to see
advertisers
change even
on pre produced ads on how they're targeting.
Initially, it was a lot of targeting based
on the demographics of who the listeners are,
but now you're starting to see them go,
wait a second.
Why am I targeting on
demographics when I actually care about psychographics? And
then they're saying, hey,
why don't I, you know, why don't I
just put it all across all these true
crime or why don't I put it across
all these sports podcasts? Doesn't matter what their
demographics are. If they're interested in this topic,
they're interested in my product.
And then we're starting to see that shift
come back now.
You know, still host red is still dominant,
but programmatic, I thought, a bit was so
more reliant
on they would they were so interested on
the demos. They forgot about well, does it
really matter if that person is a male
or female if they're not gonna buy your
product? So I've seen this year, especially,
more of those would call run of network
type buys where they'll buy across a whole
genre of podcast because they know those people
that listen to it, regardless of gender, regardless
of age, are likely to buy their product
because of the topic they're listening to. Yeah.
It does,
seem like that the advertising
side,
is really moving a little bit closer to
what we've
accepted, I guess, or or seen in the
broadcast media side. Right? For many years. That's
the irony as I look back to the
past is is what we went through this
phase with podcasting, and I think it still
exists today where
where host reads do do very well. It's
been able
to Right. And
advertisers
are really increasingly
starting to think about, well, what's the ROI
on these things? Right? And that's what's causing
a little bit of an adjustment in the
medium
around expectations
because, you know, they would like to only
work with shows that drive the highest ROI,
right, on their campaigns.
That tends to narrow the the amount of
shows that are being being purchased.
And And are you doing that as well?
Yeah. I mean,
some buyers will like, hey. I only want
shows a 100,000, a 150,000,
or 200,000 per app. Right? Because they don't
wanna deal with shows that are
smaller. But others are realizing that, hey, there's
really actually better ROI oftentimes between shows that
are between $1,015,000
and a 100,000.
Those those audiences tend to be much more
loyal to to the hosts
than some of the ones that are, you
know, bigger shows. I'm not gonna name names,
but bigger shows that are up there that
never listen to this
a voice mail message, never,
reply to the audience, never interact with the
audience. But the shows that are 25,
50 k, they tend to still be interacting
with their audience and pull them a better
rapport with that audience. Yeah. And it does
seem like more and more shows are taking
their,
their platform or their content to private communities
increasingly too.
It's usually around bonus content, but Substack. I've
seen a lot of shows going around sub
stack. Yeah. That's a that's a great example,
but there's other ones too, like, you screen,
dot TV is another one that we're seeing
people
post all their videos over there. So you
could conceivably have an audio show that's only
available
publicly and then do all your video over
in these these more private communities, right, that
you can build a paid relationship with
with a particular show.
But Rob, before we dive too much further
into this, because we have a lot of
data that we wanna share on the show
today too, that I'm gonna pull up on
the screen around the ad spend market, in
The US and globally. But I did wanna
share that the the New Media Show has
a new website. So if you are seeing
this live so let me bring it up
on the screen here. So if you wanted
to go to
newmediashow.com,
you can actually get all of the older
older episodes
of which there's probably close to 600
up in here right now. And if you
missed the the episode that Rob and I
both did
to to remember Todd Cochran,
that's all up here too, and there's audio
and and video players that are on that
post as well. Those are now in the
RSS feeds, the older RSS feeds that didn't
get updated originally with that episode. So
so we've been able to restore the whole
show
and get all of the archives in here
too. So all of the the new episodes
will be published in here just like this.
And so this will be a good kind
of landing,
location
for for the show going forward. And so
so but it's still gonna be available and
streamed live out to all of the social
platforms.
I am tapping into Todd's old,
old link through
Restream.
Hopefully, it's working. I'm not really sure if
it is, but I'll find out after the
show,
to try and capture as many,
potential listening points for this show as well.
But I'm sure some of them aren't gonna
work, but,
I'm hoping that some of them will, and
it'll capture people that have probably not seen
the show in a long time. I wonder
what happened to it. Right. So and then,
so I just wanted to show that there's
ways that you you can actually go back
in here. And I mean, well, first of
all, you can go on and and subscribe
to Apple Podcasts or Spotify
and get access to to the content there
and get it on your phone. And then
also there's a complete list by by, month
and year
of all the past past episodes. If you
wanted to go into a deep dive of
seeing what one of the early episodes of
this series is, you can see how long
that list is. It's about,
like I said, close to 600 episodes. So
if you have lots of extra time in
your life, which probably most people don't.
So this is a little bit more personal,
Rob.
It's it it it, like, shows us parallel
with with each other. I know
the the past
show,
had us in various sizes and things like
that, but I just love the that this
parallel look. Now granted, I can flip back
and forth to
to me and then you and in that
that concept, which is terrific. But,
And for those that are watching after and
don't realize, we're using StreamYard. So Yeah. Right.
And need what service.
So what we're doing here is hopefully will
work well
on the audio side and and the video
side is my goal always. So anything we
bring up on the screen, you know, we're
gonna talk about. So it isn't so much,
that it's only being created for the video
of consumers of this because that's the other
thing that I've learned over the last,
couple of years is that is that increasingly
people are looking for an audio version and
potentially
as an option, a video word. So there
are people out there that like to watch
video, which are typically a smaller subset.
I think the the numbers that Todd shared
with me in the past, because we've been
doing this as a live show for thirteen
years, is that it's like 10 to 20%
of the audience watches the video side. That's
not what we did. Score a lot of
show. Oh, it is. Right. Some shows,
the ratio is 20 to one. I mean,
while the podcast
that we see is 20 to one ratio
of audio to video.
Yeah. And that's why I care about them,
the actual production of this and
and how it's how it's presented. Is it
visually,
you know, enticing? I was a little bit,
a little disappointed because I was trying to
shoot for four k here with with what
I'm trying to do, but the technology platforms
are still not quite there yet to four
k. Now, granted, YouTube is playing in that
four k market
pretty deeply, but most of the content that
gets published,
or I just say all of it, that's
four k gets published as a direct upload.
There isn't any four k. Yeah.
Yeah. Any live streams that are going into
YouTube that are four k today,
they default it, and and so does so
does StreamYard as far as I know. So,
so anyway, just a little bit of background
background story. But,
let's
is there any thoughts,
Rob, on Todd's passing that you've had subsequent
to
to,
the your remembrance episode that that we might
wanna talk about?
No. I mean, since,
you know, I saw you at the funeral
and and and it was great turnout and
it was great seeing folks there. I'm a
horrible reason to see them, but it it
was really nice to see that turnout for
Todd.
Yeah. Yeah. It just it's still very sad.
I think and I always said it was
it's gonna hit me more, like, when I
get to podcast, when I'm there and you
see the bluebird Right. Blankens. You won't see
Todd. And I think that's
I think that's gonna be more of the
reality of the situation,
when it gets home with a lot of
people for that point. You know, they're used
to seeing them there. Those of that.
Yeah. So,
speaking of Podfest,
there's a bunch of stuff that's gonna be
going on down there.
I'm a big, big fan of Podfest and
what they're trying to accomplish down there. That
that that's it. Podfest,
expo.com
if you wanted to go,
check it out if you haven't heard of
it before,
which
I'm always surprised that there are people in
the community that are not aware of that
conference. Mhmm.
And so I I always try and share
it as much as I can. But the
the podcast hall of fame, the twenty twenty
six podcast hall of fame is gonna be
there.
Plus
this new media show is going to be
on stage again, Rob.
So we're gonna do it,
live in front of an audience down there.
And then I'm also gonna do a hall
of fame hall of fame panel down there
too. So
I'm gonna be involved in two sessions down
there, one for the hall of fame and
one for the media show. So I'm gonna
be building out panels down there for that,
and that's coming together right now. But the
big thing that's coming down the path right
now is,
getting
finalized the selection.
What it's looking like is gonna be 12
people that are gonna be inducted into the
podcast hall of fame. It could be 11.
So there's always a couple of stragglers that
are still
trying to decide if they're gonna be there
in person or if they're
even going to accept the award. And
that may not be
commonly known out there, but,
as Rob, as you know, that there are
people that have decided to not accept the
hall of fame induction,
which may come as a surprise to some
people. But,
I mean, I would think that everybody would
want to be be inducted, but there's there's
a bunch of reasons that I hear sometimes,
of why that doesn't happen.
But it's
there can be all sorts of issues that
can come up, but it it it it's
also can be a personal choice type of
situation too. We don't force people to get
inducted into the whole thing. So, so it's
a much more kind of cooperative thing because
that's the environment that I want to create
with the whole thing is that people that,
you know, get inducted want to be there.
And because it it really aligns with the
values of the whole whole of fame and
the purpose of it. And what we're trying
to accomplish with it is we want people
that are inducted into it that really,
have
a a kind of a persona of,
of really giving back, right, to the podcasting
space and building community
and being being a good participant,
in in the medium. And that's that that's
why we do it that way. So I
would say probably over half of the inductees
are gonna be there in person. Mhmm. So
that's that's always a terrific outcome.
The first reaction from some people is is
that, you know, well, I can't make it,
but as they kinda move down the path
and they think about it a little bit
more, they oftentimes come back and say, well,
I'll be there. Absolutely.
So so it's always a good good kind
of move that, that happens
over time. So I wanted to show
next the the hall of fame,
website. So if you wanted to go check
it out,
I think I just disconnected it. So let
me go in and
reconnect it again.
And
so all the information about the hall of
fame is
is on this page,
and it's at,
podcasthall.com.
If you wanted to go
go check it out, it's got last year's
full bulk of your phone. Is that because
Todd registered podcasthalloffame.com?
I believe he did
when
yeah. Right. I think he was
He was always quick to,
register if you had your domain names around
town. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He tends to wanna
do that.
But I I believe he did a redirect
on this too. So I think he redirected
the traffic to this one. So if you
did type in podcasthalloffame.com,
I think it does get redirected to this.
So and I think yeah.
There's actually three domain names, but but I
tend to focus just on one. Podcast hall
is short and sweet and it and it
says it all to some degree, but having
that podcast halloffame address is great too. But
so what's on this page
is a link to the ceremony.
So if you wanted
to come to Podfest
and
attend the ceremony in person, you can do
do that. And there's in person tickets that
are available,
right here that you can click on.
But but the event will be produced into
a full video,
so so you'll be able to watch it,
I believe that's gonna come out on the
eighteenth. So it'll be a couple days after
the
the in person's ceremony. Hopefully, we can get
it out,
in that time frame
ready to go. And so so and then
also what's there too is all of the
past inductees.
And, hopefully, here in the next day or
so, we will have
our our new inductees
listed in here.
And so
last year's inductees
are listed in here and all the prior
years too.
So if you wanted to go and and
check out what the past has been for
the hall of fame, it's it's all right
there. And if you wanted to go and
watch some
some past
videos of past
ceremonies from the past. You can see Dave
Jackson there. You know, his induction back in
2018
and the full
2017
induction,
which at the time was part,
part of,
podcast movement.
And that's when I got inducted was on
the
in 2017.
What was different about the hall of fame
back then is that it was combined with
a podcast awards.
So the hall of famers were sprinkled
amongst,
you know, podcast award winners. So
which is different than the hall of fame
today, which is
just the hall of fame.
So
it's not it doesn't currently have,
a
awards, like a podcast awards kind of piece
to it.
So so anyway, and also I wanted to
thank Podfest
for for giving us a venue and and
and really supporting the the event. And and
the Bluberry platform has come through this year
with a
sponsorship
of the Hall of Fame. And and hopefully
we'll have,
a a few more sponsors before the event
happens.
And then,
Pod News is kind of our
our our media partner. So
so, anyway, let's,
hop out of that
and
come back, and we can continue our conversation,
Rob.
So
so anyway, let's let's go ahead and kinda
move on from that.
And,
well,
let me tease
a few of the inductees.
Actually, I've got it in the show notes
here, so we might as well share that
this has not been publicly released yet, but
the names that I'm
I have here,
have already agreed to be inducted in the
hall of fame. There's a couple of names
that are
potentially missing here,
that haven't,
officially confirmed.
So I won't mention them.
Okay.
And the first one, and and I know,
Rob, you're a big fan of, is Dan
Carlin. Yes.
Hardcore history.
He's telling me there's a new episode coming
out the end of this month. We'll see.
We'll see if it makes
It's funny. I think, well, we think we're
gonna cut the episode down. It'll only be
four hours long so we can Oh, is
that all? Okay. Right.
Right.
Well, now he knows if he's a hall
of famer, so maybe he'll mention that as
part of his history. Oh, come on. So
and then the next one is Paul Culligan,
who's been around this medium. I met Paul
We met him at at Gnome Decks, 2005
or '6. It was one of the two.
But, yes, we met him at Gnomedek.
Yeah. At first met Paul back when I
was working for Microsoft on the on the
Zoom. So
and then another one who comes out of
the the video podcasting era, but has a
strong
connection
with,
like CNET radio and
and other other kind of tech related,
podcasting platforms is Veronica Belmont. And that may
be a a new name to many people
because she hasn't been really
plugged into the podcast side of things
or my community standpoint over the years, but
I've known her for for many, many years
now, and she had huge impact on the
early years of hypnosis.
Yep. And and we're also gonna do
a a memorial induction of Dan Miller,
who,
we're gonna be lucky to have Dave Ramsey
is going to induct
Dan Miller on on stage in Orlando.
So,
and I know, Rob, I
I you know,
Dave well. I'm sure. Yep. And and and
Dan.
You know, Dan was down where I live
now. He was in this area, the Franklin
Brentwood area,
and and he had a mastermind group and
Dave was part of that group. And there's
a lot of people came out of Dan's
mastermind group.
Definitely big influence.
Yeah. I talked to,
Dave Dave Ramsey today about about the induction,
and he's he's he's willing to do anything.
He was a very close friend,
of of Dan's for, like, four years, I
guess. So,
he he's gotta be there,
with an impassionate,
presentation
to to induct Dan.
I have never seen a better public speaker
than Dave Ramsey.
Okay. Cool. He, He's great to talk on
the phone with too. So Yeah. I mean,
I've seen him speak a couple times live.
Unbelievable speaker. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he's
he's got a unbelievable network too that's been
very successful. Right?
And the next one that probably won't be
too much of a big surprise to to
to many people is James Cridland.
So so, you know, I know.
But he has had a huge impact on
the podcasting space, and he got lots and
lots of votes,
in the the process. And all these
people that I mentioned here,
have have gone through a voting process. So
we've had, like,
50 plus,
people that have voted to to select this
from a group of probably close to 200,
nominees.
That list can grow, but that comes with
some inherent challenges too. Mhmm. So, Lucas,
I got some comments from some of the
voters saying that the
the list was too long
to be able to It was. I I
there was a quite a few names on
there. I was like, who? I had to
look up. Like, who is this? Because I'm
the one that always know people's name.
I didn't.
You did a lot better job than when
I was earning it. I'll just say that.
Much more organized.
I for like, I'd email people going, here's
the list to choose from. Send me back
a few names.
Well, that worked as well. But,
but, yeah, I tried to include
tried to follow through with a promise that
I made up on stage last year is
to include some international folks
in the
the list
of potential,
inductees,
and I did that. So it's not a
huge percentage of the list, but I'm trying
to phase into it solely,
to get, you know, some folks,
recognized.
And
one of them is,
who's outside of The US is Mark Esquith.
He's gonna be inducted this year. He's gonna
be there in person, he told me today.
So I'm excited for that. And another one
that may be a surprise to many people
that, don't go back to the early years
of podcasting is
Julie Samuels
from the Electronic Frontier Foundation organization. And the
whole Adam Corolla
fighting the patent troll. Patent troll in the
early years.
She had a significant impact, and and a
lot of people will realize this and hopefully
she'll talk about it a lot at the
hall of fame
around that whole process,
that the industry went through. And there was
a lot of fear and there was a
lot of concern. A lot of people were,
is it time to bail on podcasting because
of this patent holder that was trying to
sue people? And they did sue a few
big companies.
And,
and but in the end, they were able
to to kind of put down Yeah.
It was beaten down with no chance of
coming back. So it was EFF did a
great job on that. I I worked with
them when they were going through that AdRoll
issue.
We were we were part of that. We
were hosting Adam Carle at the time. And
then I I remember being on calls with
Julie and and the EFS and,
Apple. Yeah.
I can't be any happier for the EFS.
I joined an EFS member
back then and still
am. Lots of people did back then. Yeah.
And lots of people stepped up and donated
Mhmm. To the legal defense fund. I know
I did too. I know a bunch of
people did,
to try and fight back
against this troll that was trying to take
down podcasting.
And it was really a patent that wasn't
really grounded in what podcasting was anyway, so
it was really kind of a silly, silly
thing that they were trying to do. So
the next one is Kerry Hoffman,
who is a long time CEO of BRX,
has been a been a big
impact on the podcast medium for many years.
So I'm excited to have her inducted as
well. And
Ariel Nissenblatt,
is is our one.
She's a more
recent podcaster, but but,
is more out of the modern era of
podcasting, which I was excited to to see.
And I I would say that she's probably
one of, or if not the best candidate
for this induction at this age for her.
So so I think it's terrific. And then
the the last one I can announce here
at this point is, Sarah VanMozel. You know,
you and I both know about
Sarah's impact, which has been wide ranging and
massive. I don't know if you wanna share
share a little bit about her. No. She's
been key player in the space. I'm very
happy for her, and and I was glad
to see her name listed as one of
the ones I got,
in this group. So there are hopefully, Sarah
will be one that shows up. Say hi.
But, yeah, I don't know how many of
these have said they're gonna show versus how
many said they're gonna send in videos.
Like I said, a little bit less than
half are going to, but I'm not gonna
say because they may change their mind, which
I've already seen happen today. So I'm I'm
happy to see that. So but it should
be great. And if you can make it
to podfest
expo dot com,
it starts on the January 15. I know
it's coming up, pretty quickly, but it's a
significant event from a creator perspective. And I
think that's the thing to think about it.
As we've seen what what was happened with
podcast movement and things like that, I think
it's it's kind of a a good alternative,
conference if you wanna wanna support a conference.
I'm not against podcast movement, and those guys
are doing terrific stuff over there as well.
But to have an outlet for indie podcasters,
that's really the events,
right now. But I think over time, it's
gonna become a little bit more professionalized too
just because of the evolution of the industry.
I get I hope everyone that was inducted
has the ability, again, timing wise. Maybe not
everybody can. But hopefully, from their schedule, it
allows them to come down. And being inducted
in person, you know, having not through it,
it it's something they'll remember forever. And,
I, you know, I feel sorry for those
that that just sent in the video. I
think they miss out on on part of
the the feel of it then. And it's
great to see the people that show up
there and are there to support you,
when you get inducted. So, and I hope
I hope everyone's able to make it. I
understand, you know, some people are have to
travel halfway around the world literally,
to make it.
Well, like, Mark Asquith is a good example
of that. I was I was nervous about
inducting people outside of The US because,
just the travel aspect of it, right, to
be there in person.
But I I was happy to hear that,
he's gonna do everything he can to be
there. So Yeah. So global global, give him
the give him the tickets, get him out
there. Uh-huh. It's gonna fit out right. Well,
I think that's gonna happen. So so that
that'd be fantastic. So, yes, I wanted to
say big thank you to, to Blueberry Podcasting
and the Hall of Fame for, for being
a supporter of the show and, and also,
being just a terrific
company that that supported, you know, podcast that
supports this show, and I just appreciate it.
Let's,
jump in and talk about YouTube and Spotify
and what they're doing in podcasting. The there
are some trend reports
that are out there, top podcast lists. So
I wanted to pull those up on the
screen. And so we we can all kinda
take a look at this and see
what's actually going on here with this. And
I'll get everyone a hint. There's, like, three
top twenty twenty five lists when Apple, Spotify,
YouTube. Guess who's at the top of every
one of those three? Yeah. I know. It's
actually not very surprising. So this is the
the top list in The US from YouTube.
This is based on watch time.
So it's not a subscription list or how
many viewers. This is based on how much
time people spend with a particular show that
they classify as a podcast. And that's better.
Right. Isn't that the best metric though when
you really think about it? Yeah. It is.
Yeah. I mean, okay. So you have a
million people watch a five minute episode, but
if you have 750,000
people watch a two hour episode,
which one is more influential?
I I would go with the one that's
the two hour tour. Right. And and Joe
Rogan comes out number one, right, as is
the show that gets the most watch time.
Probably helps that it's all of his episodes
are at least two hours long, but I
wrestle with that, though. I don't know that
any and every show can pull that off,
though. I don't know what you think, Ralph.
I mean, no. Not a book can pull
that off. I mean, some of these folks
do have, you know, Vaughn's episodes of Long
John Ryan's are longer. Rotten Mangos, they're more
produced,
so but Kill Tony's are longer. Not as
long. When I'm looking through this list,
yeah. But all I would say almost all
of these are longer form content, you know,
greater than thirty minutes. I think any of
these are shorter than don't know the length.
I've never listened to the diary of a
CEO.
But I think Yeah. That's them are pretty
long too. I mean, he I think, Steven
Bartlett goes close to two hours sometimes. He's
actually trying to overtake Joe Rogan. In The
UK, he's number two. Right? I think in
The UK, he was either he was number
two right behind Rogan. This here, you have
The US list. He's actually doing really well
if you think about that. Number two
behind Joe Rogan, and I don't really even
know if Kill Tony is actually an audio
podcast too. I don't know for sure. I
believe they do have the audio version available.
Do they? Okay.
They used to.
Let's see. They still do. Oh, okay. That's
a little bit clearer of a of a
clean definition of what a what a podcast
is. It just so happens that they have
a video or Yes. They I mean, they
do because they have a megaphone feed. So,
that that that would have been an Apple
podcast only as audio. So yes.
Number three is Good Mythical Morning. It's the
one just after that. I don't know if
they have an RSS feed, but it would
be interesting to see. I would think most
of these do. They're good. Mythical Morning. Yes.
So it was yeah. That one does not
have an RSS feed. Oh, it does not.
Okay. That's interesting. Okay. Well, not I'm not
seeing it in Apple Podcast. So I technically
would say that's not a podcast. It's probably
listed in the podcast playlist,
on They must have. Yeah. So it gets
put in a list. Right? There are many
people that I talk with that will tell
you they're a podcaster and then are not
an Apple Podcasts,
only do video, and just happen to do
and do shows that are more than thirty
minutes on YouTube. People at this point now
think if you do a weekly show, longer
than thirty minutes and you're on YouTube, that's
a podcast. I would disagree. I would say
you you really need for that show to
have, the audio version of it available and
and be in a podcast
and overcast and podcast and podcast and other
places. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that
that's a fair way to think about it.
I mean, if it's only video and it's
only on YouTube, it's kind of a hard
case to make that it's really a short
podcast.
I think that's the other thing that's going
on in in the industry right now is
this kind of like this confusion about, what
a podcast is, and it's caused confusion amongst
people as they as they look at the
the medium. I would love to see every
one of these shows in the top 10
at YouTube top podcasts have an RSS feed
version of their show. I would think over
time, they probably will. I think it kind
of depends on the format of the show
too. If they because there there are video
first creators out there, but increasingly,
even though you're a video first creator, doesn't
mean that you can't have a audio podcast
version. Right. And if you would and there
are quite a few that have made that
transition. They started video and now have a
audio podcast starting to do well.
Bryce Crawford
started just video and now also has the
audio. Really, really popular podcast.
He hugely popular between males between the ages
of 14, 15, and and 25 that are
in the faith community. And and so anybody
that is in a youth church group is
a male will know who Bryce Crawford is,
and he started Just Video, now has also
audio. Oh, got it. And then,
number four is, Rotten Mango. I've never heard
of that one as a audio podcast. Oh,
yeah.
She's yeah. She's got audio. Oh, she does?
Okay. So if you look at this whole
list, Medeus
Touch podcast,
forty eight hours,
I don't know if forty eight hours has
an audio version. What do you think? I'm
looking that one up. Let's see. I thought
they did. It might just be yeah. They
do. They do have an audio version of
the show. Okay. And then the the Sean
Ryan show By the way, it is video
first, but the audio And then the Sean
Ryan show, which is has a audio version
as well. Right. Mhmm. It started as audio.
Yeah. And then Smosh
As an audio version. Yep. And Yep. The
Yovan, obviously, definitely an audio version. And so
does the diary of a CEO. So yeah.
The real It looks like it's just been
mythical morning is is the one that I
would say, if you're gonna be technical, isn't
truly Right. You're not in the podcast. Yeah.
You know? Oh, yeah. That's my definition. If
you're not in Apple Podcast Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. If you're not in Apple
Podcasts, then you're not in all the other
apps that pull from Apple's public directory. You're
not in PocketCasts. You're not in PocketCasts and
and all the others. So it's it's not
just about being an Apple, it's about being
an Apple's directory that all the other apps
pull from. And you can be just video
in there. Maybe that, you know, you don't
wanna have an audio version of your show.
You oh, it doesn't it doesn't not good
to have
an audio version of this. It doesn't work.
You're an artiste. Right? And
it it has to be video only. We
can still be an Apple podcast.
And then the audio will play just in
Overcast, but it'll still be an Overcast. That's
what this show does is it has a
a video RSS feed, that's available. That's something
that Todd and I have been with this
show for a very long time and continue
today. So it is possible to play video
in Apple Podcasts and a couple other platforms
too, as far as apps, and things like
that. It's not a very commonly known thing
anymore, is it, Rob? But Again, it's still
and I always say this. There's still more
time in the day to consume audio than
there is video. It's cheaper for people around
the world to stream audio than there is
video. You know, not everybody has cheap Internet
access. Yeah, that's true. That's true because it
takes up a lot of storage and and
it's usually higher playback bit rate. But if
you're if you're streaming that video, which oftentimes,
you know, if you look at these these
big platforms like the E2 or Spotify or
whatever, they're playing it via HLS
streams which can be like a variable bit
rate playback. So so it can adjust to
your bandwidth capabilities.
Up on the screen now, we have the
Spotify list for the top podcast globally in
2025.
This ranks Joe Rogan again number one. Big
surprise, Oh, man. Yeah. And number two, the
Diariam CEO, Steven Bartlett. So he's he's in
both lists. Yep. And Oh, yeah. And Mel
Robbins,
is number three. And Caller Daddy, number four.
Theo Vaughn. Back also on both lists. Right.
Interesting that the Huberman Lab podcast,
is,
didn't show up in the YouTube list. I
thought that that show was a a video
first program. No. It started as audio. Oh,
it started as audio, but I think he's
really put in a lot of effort into
the video side. Yeah. When he started with
us, it was audio only in Oh, okay.
So Or I mean, he made a pad
video. It was yeah. It was a big
part of the show was audio early. Okay.
So he is an example of a show
that that started out, built a big audience
on the audio side, and then just add
video. Okay. And then,
Crime Junkie, which is obviously a a big
audio show. Yeah. It's only audio. Right. That
would be a expensive production, I would imagine,
on the video side. Kinda like with Dan
Carlin as a good example.
Can you imagine if he made a video
version of his show, Ron? Yeah. He he
couldn't do it the way he did. You
know, some shows just will never
most true crime podcasts won't do video.
There's again, Rotten Mango is one that is,
but most the way they record and they
prep and they do it in sections and
segments and they build through it, it it's
hard it'd be hard for them to do
video and have it be of value. Right?
You know, sometimes you can do video. Anybody
could do video. Let me say this. Anybody
can do video. What at what cost to
the audio? Yeah. Well, also in what cost
to the creator's,
pocketbook? And is there a a a return
on that? That's the that's the other thing
that all these creators have to think about
is they can spend a lot to produce
video. And I'm seeing a lot of people
do that on YouTube now. I'm seeing full
movies and documentaries
being put together by independent creators,
that are, you know, at the level of,
you know, what you would have seen on
the Discovery Channel or someplace like that. So
there are people that are investing in creating
a video experience that, is on par with
what you would expect from a, you know,
like a history series or something like that
that maybe you saw on the History Channel
or something like that. I see people investing
a lot of energy in creating content like
that. I've been pretty impressed by it. Now,
how many of those are audio versions is
the other question. Right? They're probably not podcast.
And, you know, and and you look at
Apple's top list on some of these too.
Like, Huberman Labs made the top 10 in
Apple's list for the year. Prime Junkie made
the top 10. No audio. That I have
Apple's here in my document here. But, and
then the last couple here,
Modern Wisdom, that is a strong video program
as well. Obviously, I don't know, are they
hosting it, Luxe and Drive? Or No. They're
not. That is a show that I've watched
many times that, has very good audio quality.
So they're obviously thinking about their audio quality.
And that's the other metric here too, is
that if you're a Vimeo first creator, you
tend to not think about audio first from
an audio quality standpoint. And I'm seeing people
kind of move away from the big boom
microphones,
which I would think maybe makes the audio
less important. This was an issue, I think,
for broadcast television too, where they everybody on
broadcast television,
uses hidden mics or lavaliers or something like
that, or they use boom mics or that
kind of stuff.
It does compromise on the auto quality a
little bit. So sorry. I'm on the lavalier.
No. It's okay. I'm your audio. So it
sounds great. I've got lavaliers here too. I've
got a shotgun mic here too. I tend
to not use it very often, but and
then the the number nine on the list
is On Purpose with, Jay Shetty,
which that certainly started out as a strong
audio podcast. I believe he's doing video, but
I don't know that I watch Jay Shetty.
Well, no. I take that back. I think
I have seen Jay on on YouTube before.
And then, Tucker Carlson brings out the And
he was definitely video first. Matter of fact,
he was video first on Twitter, Eck, before
the show made it over. But I mean,
when he came in with his show, the
Tucker Carlson Show, it initially launched before it
was on Apple or Spotify or anywhere else.
It was original episodes were launched on Eck.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's true. I do remember
that, and he got huge numbers doing this
too. And, I also know that he has
a popular audio version too. He's a very
prolific ad seller into his audio podcast. Let's
not just put it to you that way.
He's well monetized on the audio side is
what I would say. They they learn from
Alex Jones. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. So let
me scroll down the the list. I don't
know if this one so I think the
one up here was globally for Spotify. This
one the next one on the list is
Spotify top podcasts,
in The US. It looks like Joe Rogan
again, obviously,
and then Theo Vonn, number two. So Theo
Vonn is very, very strong in The US,
but not so much outside of The US.
Well, it's interesting. Theo is number two here,
and and he was on the YouTube list,
but he isn't in Apple's top 10 list.
Interesting. Mel Robbins is. Mel Robbins is third
in the Apple list along with this. It
does make you wonder, Rob, if it's,
it's kind of an age group demographic
issue for him because because I know a
lot of younger people tend to listen to
Spotify more than they listen to Apple Podcasts.
So I don't know if that could make
a difference here. And I think Theo now
is definitely more video focused. Yeah. I think
that that has a lot to do with
it too. Yeah. And caller daddy's out on
the list. Mel Robin, crime junkie. So it's,
Sean Ryan that even though it looks like
the Tucker Carlson show is a little more
popular in The US,
and then The Daily pops up there. I
would have thought that The Daily would have
been higher on the list than that, but
that's interesting. And the Huberman Labs show and
Well, The Daily is number two in Apple's
list. Gotta remember, this is Spotify. So Spotify's
list is a little bit different, more recent
shows. I don't know. So Yeah. And then
number 10 is,
Good Hang with Amy Poehler.
So she's cracked the top 10 in The
US for top podcast on Spotify. Let's jump
to talking in the last ten minutes of
the show or so. Let's talk about what
the forecasts are looking like for, advertising
spend globally and in The US. Now there's
always dueling numbers, isn't there? I go off
of the numbers from the IAB.
The IAB numbers to me are are more
of the gold standard of what's being spent
because the IAB, well, one, it works with
PwC,
this trusted source. And then they go and
they actually reach out to to all of
the different ad network and agencies
in the podcast space and collect that data
and anonymously
well, so that it's not nobody knows who
whose numbers are what. But because of that,
I tend to think the the the PwC
IAB numbers are the the gold standard. And
and they had 2024
was around 2,400,000,000.0,
for ads in The US. That's the number
I go by. So is that, for 2020,
four? Is that what you 2024.
'4. Okay. Yeah. You know, the date that
I pulled here, I pulled from chat GPT.
It it went and looked at all the
all the sources, pulled it into create this.
So it depends on where you pull it,
how you make the request, and what platforms,
it's pulling it from because there's a lot
of difference in different projections that are out
there. Right. There was definitely a big increase
in 2024
versus 2023
with 2023
being down. But a lot of people are
forgetting is twenty twenty three, four, we saw
the whole iOS 17
issue and that hit and that caused some
issues.
Machine spend shows numbers dropped, especially ones that
were selling back catalog. 2025,
from everybody that I've talked with in the
space, is going it sounds like it's going
to be a much better year than 2024
was. So I think we'll see above that
2,500,000,000,
number in 2025
when the IB releases those numbers come July
or next year. That will be a forecast.
That'll be more of a precise
actual number. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. The
resource that you share, with me, Rob, says
that the North American
podcast market is projected to reach
65,760,000,000.00
by 2033.
Yeah. And and I was sharing that as
an example of what not to believe
from from AI. We were gonna talk a
little about AI, and and I wanted to
do an example. So I just said to,
well, I won't throw any of the AI's
on the bus, but I said to one
of the AI's, what are the three top
news items in the last two weeks with
regards to the podcasting space and the business
of podcasting?
And it was one about video podcasts, and
it was one about podcast mergers, he does.
And then there was one North American podcast
mark rejected to reach 65,760,000,000
by 2033,
and stating that in 2024,
it was 10,500,000,000.0.
There is no scenario at all that you'd
get anywhere close to those numbers.
And no, those numbers are just completely BS.
Looking up, there's a couple of unfortunately, there's
a couple of bad articles out there. And
I put in I took out the report
profiles, players, like and I I took their
names out. Out. NR1, name redacted one, name
redacted two, because I know one of those
two that was redacted
is paying for fake downloads, you know, for
the whole network. So you can't take anything
that they say serious. Right. Yeah. Yeah. We
kicked a bunch of their
shows off. So I I know for sure
that one of them,
no. Numbers are BS.
And Yeah. And it's best what they're including
too. I know that there's been a lot
of people sharing numbers that are maybe trying
to roll in,
YouTube numbers
right now, or they're adding different types of
advertising that may be somewhat related to podcasting
into the numbers to make Even if you
include the number bigger. Even if you included
the equipment that goes into people's podcast gear,
the houses that go around their gear, you're
still not gonna get to the numbers that
Yeah. It's their the amount of money they
spent on their office ludio. Right? Yeah. So
there's lots of ways that you can you
can spend the these numbers. And,
but the big takeaway for for me on
this, and and we talked about this a
lot in the past on the on the
show,
is that the growth in the in this
side of podcasting has not really been,
very strong for many years.
It's been kind of laboring at this $22,000,000,000
mark for many years.
And and I know it has a lot
of people in the industry
thinking about, well, how can we break through?
Right? There's a lot of ad budgets that's
sitting out. If you look at the bottom
part of this screen too, I don't know
how accurate this is, but,
it says that podcasts are only 1%
of the total US ad spend. I don't
know how accurate that is. I get maybe
a little higher than that would be my
my assessment. But No. I mean, that is
when I look at when we look in
the IAB about all the ad dollars that
are spent in advertising in The US, podcasting
is still a very small percentage of that.
And it's growing,
and it we still feel podcasting
advertisers have an opportunity. But then on the
other side, some of those other mediums, if
you said an an hour of radio, that's
forty only forty four minutes of content. Right?
Sixteen minutes of ads. Most audio podcasts that
are an hour long have less than seven
or eight minutes of ads in that one
hour of content. So podcasting still,
has unless it's true crime, they get a
little bit more. But for the most part,
podcasts are underrepresented
by the amount of ads, and that's a
positive on why people listen to podcasts. Right?
Some will tell you that that sixteen minutes
of ads in an hour is too much,
and that's why they listen to podcasts. So
there is a balance that we have to
go at, and we're not gonna there are
some that say, hey. The best way to
grow ad revenue in podcasting is shove in
more ads. And that happens, unfortunately, for some
bigger shows when they sign minimum guarantee deals.
They they can make their minimum guarantee or
the company that gave them you know, promised
them the money is to overstuff it with
that. Still load it up as they say.
Right? Right.
Luckily, there's still quite a few podcasts that
push back on that and say no. That's
too much. I can't do that to my
audience, and that's a good thing for the
space that there's some restraint still. Yeah. You
know, I think that's the tension though. I
would say that the industry has really been
discussing this and I hear on a few
other podcasts and there there's a lot of
other podcasts about podcasting now that are really
drilled in and focused on the business side,
and I try and listen to those as
much as I can.
And and it does give me the impression
that the advertisers were kinda holding back somewhat,
and I'm not quite sure that there's a
good rational reason for that. I I think
that they think that they're not able to
get the the detail on the data that
they would like that they get from the
streaming services,
of time spent listening,
how many of the ads were actually heard,
what you know, those kind of metrics that
is difficult in podcasts
to deliver that level and that granularity
of detail. I know that the attribution part
has been, a huge component of the pushback
as well and getting that accurate and things
like that. And that's what's really, I think,
pushing the industry more and more to think
about HLS,
as a as a replacement for downloads,
is to try and cater to what these
advertisers
brands are
are pushing for, which is these deeper levels
of metrics that are only without Apple support.
Big platforms. Without Apple support, doesn't. Yeah. That's
the real run here is is it what's
ironic about it is that I believe Apple
was the inventor of HLS,
on the streaming side, but yet they're not
embracing it. So, you know, and it's just
one one of those things that the industry,
you know, would like to be a more
commercially
viable
media. Right? I mean, if you think about
how big even the radio advertising market was
dramatically bigger than the podcast market, even though
you could make a case that we're as
bigger on talk I think we're equal to
your radio. We're bigger than talk radio. We
crossed that three years ago. Three years ago,
we we crossed it in The US where
there's more people listening weekly to podcasts than
talk radio. Right. But that hasn't equated to
the same equal revenue
Oh, no. On the ad spend side, but
that could get get back to ad loads
too. You know? And if you look at
some numbers that I've seen over the last
couple of years with iHeartRadio,
a lot of their podcasts have achieved the
trophy of 16 and ad of ads on
their podcast.
Yeah.
Ass on the trophy you wanna have. But,
you know, it it fits with your broadcast
model. Right? So if you're trying to replace
that revenue, which I think increasingly the the
radio side would like to do, I can
see why they went there. Right? And then
to kind of move in to talk a
little about AI, you know,
iHeart is a good example of a platform
that's incorporating,
AI generated,
host reads.
So I think they're playing around with that
technology.
And then here's the thing about AI generated
host reads. If it doesn't say at the
beginning of the host read that it is
AI generated, it is in violation of the
FTC,
rules. And the FTC has been very straightforward
on that, that this is you need to
state that. And and FTC and you'll be
like, oh, well, the FTC won't correct. Yeah.
Ask Paris Hilton how that worked out for
her. Yeah. Right. Not fully stating things. So
people that are doing these AI generated ads
and are not and I don't know if
iHeart's doing it or not, are not saying
that announced that they're rolling it out with
a content platform,
that that enables it. So Yeah. Yeah. They'll
actually train on the host's
voice. Beginning of that ad, it has to
say, this is an AI generated ad. Uh-huh.
It has to say that. If it does
not state that clearly,
unambiguously,
upfront,
they can and will likely get fined. Yeah.
So and I also think, you know, I'm
increasingly hearing this, and I'm sure you are
too, Rob, that, there's people
like,
Elon Musk is a good example,
that have come out publicly here recently to
state that he thinks that pretty much
all content will be generated by AI within
five years. Yeah. I don't see that. That
may be a forward looking statement,
of what he would like to see, but
that may not be what actually comes to
pass. Not everything that Elon says comes to
pass. So And
he he says it from a perspective of
a company creating AI generated content. Right. Exactly.
AI
from Grak. Well, it's the same thing that
that we're hearing from YouTube too, or YouTube
kind of made this announcement that they're gonna
go after AI generated content and take it
down and all that stuff like that. But
if you really drill into what they did
say is that they're they're only going after
certain types of AI generated content that they
think is not valuable,
and they want people to use the
YouTube AI generated content option.
And I've listened to more than a few,
probably too many AI generated podcasts, and they
are heartless, and they are soulless, and you
can tell. And after you listen to them,
the best thing they are for is ASMR.
It's It's a great way to put you
to sleep. Right, Ro? Yeah. They just I
mean, they I'm sure they'll get better at
some point, but there is just some part
of the emotion that's missing, the spontaneity, the
mistakes that are missing there. And it's like
where you see that robot that almost looks
human but is not quite is the creepiest
of the
Perfectly looking, that's okay. But if it's almost
there, that's where the creep factor is in.
And that's right now, that's where a lot
of the AI generated slop, and I'll call
it AI generated slop, so that that one
company can be mad. But that's where a
lot of AI generated slop comes in right
now. It's it's creepy. And you listen to
it, and it is there is a tone
to it that is very unsettling.
Right. So I've heard some that are fairly
fairly convincing, but usually you can tell. I
don't know. It's it's been my experience. I
don't think it's got to a point where
it's not easy to tell. Yeah. Some of
it may get there at some point. Right.
Some of it's great if you're just trying
to get some information and you wanna listen,
you don't have time to read. Right? But
Yeah.
Me that's no different than going into a
blog post and then hitting the pulling down
on your iPad, and it dictates
Yeah. And I think that the other use
that we'll probably likely see is,
AI will generate content that humans would not.
Or now granted, you you could put all
sorts of different kind of measures on that
of what a a human would not create,
but I think it's this combination of speed
to creation is one aspect of it. And
then also the,
topics or
niche niching down
to a granular level that would be beyond
any human creator that they would wanna do
organically.
And I think that's kinda what the the
Inception
AI, platform is is doing. And so they're
taking, like, one keyword
and building a whole series of podcasts on
that one topic keyword. I think I heard
Janine Wright say that she had a episode
about the killing,
or the assassination of Charlie Kirk out and
published and in the podcast catalog within ten
minutes of Charlie Kirk getting a sentence. So,
you know, telling all about it. So, you
know, that speed to publish is probably what
we're gonna see too, and that's maybe a
threat for the the new services.
That's great because now you have nobody using
gray matter to fact check things. Right. That
was the example I gave earlier where Yeah.
You asked AI about what's going on, and
they're telling you that there's 5,000,000 global podcasts,
and there's gonna be a sixty five, seventy
six billion dollars in the podcast. They had
space in 2033.
The numbers are ridiculous, and any gray matter
put to that would realize that. But, yeah,
I I didn't. And, Nessa, you're gonna get
a lot of the slop with where you
did any any thought process on it. Well,
that doesn't make any sense. Sense. That doesn't
hold water. Well, Matt,
run us here and said, well, welcome back
to the podcast airwaves, Rob. Sounds like your
mic source isn't the mic you wanted. Oh,
I'm not sure. Really? Do I sound bad?
No. Which Rob? Let me, go in and
double check my,
I've selected my Oh, yeah. That definitely changed
it. Sorry. I have an earbuds in. I
should have noticed that. My my Rocast was
so StreamYard was picking up the wrong mic.
That's interesting. That's what and, you know, that's
what Adobe,
sweetener is for. Right. Now my lavalier didn't
sound so bad after all. Right. So we
both sound kinda comparable to each other, so
that'll be good. But, yeah, I didn't I've
never had to set this,
to my RodeCaster before. So thank you, Matt,
for letting us know. I I wish I
would have known about that earlier. Yeah. That's
where your guest should have said something,
but I didn't realize it. So I was
That's okay. Okay. Yeah. I should always check
those things before and just make sure it's
set to the right input. So so anyway
well, Rob, I think it's
been great to to do another episode. I
was hoping to keep it, you know, under
ninety minutes. So Get two podcasters together. And,
you know, we're lucky. Yeah. Well, there's a
lot I put you at Ted. We were
gonna keep it under sixty. I'm like, well,
that that was the goal, but as you
can see, I didn't quite make it. I
think I put too much content in the
outline. So I'll learn from that and adjust
it and just make sure that I check
my mic input next week because that's the
big thing I'm trying to do here,
Rob, is create a a quality program,
that sounds great on audio, but also looks
great and has a good video experience too.
So so that's that's my goal. Yeah. And
and I will say this to folks. Perfect
audio does matter. It just has to be
really it has to be good, but not
perfect. The all in podcast is better than
almost number wise than almost any other podcast
out there, and it's just four guys on
Zoom. Right. And the audio is on Zoom.
Okay. But Right. Right. And it's not always
great audio quality either. So Yeah. Yeah. That's
true. So But Nick does what he can
to clean it up. So Nick, if you're
listening. Yeah. Yes. Off the good work. Do
they host on on Yes. Oh, they do.
Okay. That's awesome. That's one of my favorite.
I listen to every episode. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
You wanna know about what's going on in
the tech world?
Those guys have great insight and cover politics
and other things. Yeah. No. It's an awesome
show that they've had. They've really branched out
into a bunch of different,
areas too. You know, they're doing live events
and doing all sorts of stuff. So so
anyway, Rob, well, thank you for spending time
with me tonight.
I I appreciate it, and I'll get this
episode pushed up to the RSS feeds, and
we can we can,
start planning the the next episode. Alright. So
yeah. So
go what's that? Thank you for having me
on.
No problem. And if be sure to go
check out the
the newmediashow.com
website,
and follow Rob and I's social channels. We're
both easy to find.
Rob also has a podcast. His podcast four
one one is is back. And I know
it I was disappointing to hear that the
the feed,
is no longer publishing episodes, and and the
band of you and Elsie got broke up,
which is an unfortunate outcome for the industry.
Mhmm. But it's hopefully, we can bring the
band back together again on this show, and
try and make something that's helpful to to
people as as well. And so up next
at the end of the show, I'm gonna
play the,
the not the full episode of the remembering
of Todd Cochran, but the intro video,
just so we can kind of honor,
Todd in this new episode as we kind
of leave the show. But,
I hope to be back next week, next
Wednesday at 6PM Eastern,
for another episode of the New Media Show.
So thank you so much. Good night.