Taught and drop in the afternoon.
Hey
with Todd and dr.
Oh, yeah.
Hey Todd, We're back. In the num media
show. It's been a couple weeks. Yes, we
are. Here we are, and
the podcasting world is still alive and well.
Yeah. That's true.
I think it's still here I think we're
now anyway. Yeah.
So I'm just waiting for my streams to
come live, Rob. So...
Okay. Well, I mean, I think we're live
on all of all my channels right now.
So it's it's it's almost instantaneous from what
I... Yeah. Not my
not not for
not for Facebook and Youtube for me because
it's the spool up uptime, but
I guess I guess, you know, they're they're
starting up now. So if you missed the
beginning of the show, I apologize everyone, Rob
pulled the trigger really quick. So
everyone, how you doing?
It doing terrific. I'm trying to minimize the
amount of pausing that's on the video when
people watch the replay on this. So people
get right into the content. So that's that's
a little bit why I jumped the gun
on and stuff like this. It's a little
bit of a difference.
I don't know why yours. Your side of
things is is kind of slow. Because you
send straight to rest stream. Yeah. Then rest
stream has to start.
And right. Because you're going direct to Youtube,
I'm not you're... And then you. Okay. So
it comes 2 step process. Yeah. It comes
to me has to spool up reach stream
and reshape has to send out. So right
regardless
we're lying. Yeah. Right. Right. It's an interesting
kind of, you know, kind of
conversation because, you know, going going direct has
some benefits then going through, like a, like
a secondary kind of streaming type platform
can offer delays. Right? So it's an interesting
contrast there. So anyway, how how ben you've
been on the move quite a bit.
Yeah. I was back in back in Seattle
for for a week or so that helping
my dad moved from his house in Bellevue
to
to a more of a... Senior living
retirement community, kind of a kind of a
living situation had a lot of head, like,
40 years of stuff that had to be
moved out of the house. But So there's
a lot of lot of hard work went
into that.
You still trying to get out of it.
But anyway,
yeah. So so it's been interesting kind of
time to some degree, you know, there's
there's always obviously, knew is going on the
podcasting space. And and
you know, what 1 of the things that
continues to hit me in the head as
I think about the podcasting space right right
now is I continue to see this research
that's out there,
that's kind of pointing to how we've kind
of... You know, and I think we've all
kind of recognized the the fact that the
that
podcasting in the Us is is kinda of
reaching a
maturation phase. I I would think what... Once
you have it, like, 80 percent awareness of
podcasting in the in the Us population. That's
that's pretty high numbers. I know for many
years, we strive to get to 30 or
40 percent, whatever and we were constantly talking
to people about what a podcast was.
But, that conversation really never happens anymore. So
that's that's a little bit of a sign
and then also some of the numbers that
are coming out about, you know, almost 70
percent. Of the Us population has actually listened
to a podcast
or what they perceive to be a podcast.
So that... That's a whole another kind of
element to that. And I just wonder if
And there's nothing wrong with this. It just...
I just wonder if we've kinda reached some
level of
peak podcasting in combination with what's happening with
the economy and
and what's happening happening with the advertising market
in the podcasting space. And just more broadly,
what's happening in business in general and media
in general. There... There's a big shift happening.
Right? Now. I do think that podcasting is
becoming more important
to more people
in in their lives, and it does seem
like bigger shows are continuing to get bigger.
And that's that's a good trend as well,
but it is... I think a little bit
more of a challenging time for
new creators getting into the space trying to
carve out their their niche. Now that that
doesn't make it impossible, but I do kinda
wonder
I don't... What's your thoughts on all this
research is coming out that's kinda kinda showing
that maybe we've we've reached some sort of
plateau here and we're not... Move forward, especially
around that podcast advertising side, which we seem
to have hit that 2000000000 dollar
revenue threshold and we can't really seem to
get through that.
We we've we've been trying for quite a
few years now. Well, it is just to
be kinda honest.
It's the best time ever to be a
creator.
You know, the number of of shows creating
content right now remain at an all time
low.
So...
Yeah. Well, why is that? As the question?
Why why are if you're... It's simple. It's
the economy.
Right. And at the same time,
we have this
you know, this hype.
That, you know, you had to be on
Youtube. And
and we're run now, finally, some podcast are
starting to wake up,
leasing conversations I'm having
that
you know, it's not all that's... It's been
meant out to be
as far as
having success with video. So
I think that is we're gonna have a
little bit of a boomerang
factor with that when people find that
they've invested heavily to try to do a
video podcast, and then don't find success
and,
you know, it's it's all about creating content.
The listeners leadership is
is is again, the listeners leadership is at
all time High.
Continues to grow.
Podcasts continue to grow.
So this assertion that we're at somewhere at
peak podcasting. I I don't think that's... I
don't think we're anywhere near that.
Especially on the creator side, You know, you're
gonna find at a certain point that you're
gonna you're gonna be,
tapped out when it comes to,
the percentage of listeners,
but again,
you know, what are listeners and what are
content creators? I mean, what are what are
people seeking great content.
So
it just goes hand in hand. You know,
we've had... If you just look at the
last 30 days,
only 330000
shows have updated in the last 30 days.
That's that's that's 50 percent off.
Maybe even 60 percent off
what it was a year and a half
ago, when, that number was close to 600
or 700000
shows.
So,
you know, IIII
just don't believe, you know, I I think
it's a great time to be a to
be a podcast right now.
The numbers are showing it and growth on
shows that
that when we're... As we're watching stats,
shows are growing at incredible rates right now.
So,
yeah. I I think the audience is here.
I think they're just seeking
great content. And if the content isn't great,
You're not... It's just like anything else,
sustainable
superior content is gonna win the day.
Yeah. I think that that is 1 of
the other key takeaways too is that the
The bar
is so much higher now
for gathering large numbers of audience, and that's
that's 1 of the challenges
I think that a lot of new creators
are kind of running into is that that
level of skill and that level of of
sa ness. Right?
How to be successful as a podcast
has elevated,
and that's that's putting on a lot of
challenges onto creators to navigate that. You know,
and then you think about the complexity of
the the media creation landscape right now. And,
I mean, obviously, like, what you've been talking
about is it throwing into the mix Youtube
is like a whole another, you know,
bag of worms that you're throwing into the
to the problem that these creators have to
face is that if they're they're trying to
do
a live streaming or they're trying to do,
you know, Youtube and they're creating video and
they're creating audio and they're trying to
optimize what they're doing for all these different
mediums,
it's a it's a daunting challenge and to
do it right
and to do it in a way. I
mean, we faced some
some feedback on on x this past week
about this show and how this show is
done.
And and how... You know, and it really
reflects that kind of feeling
that a lot of people have around, you
know, we tend to do this show at
at at least kind of, I I think
from a perception standpoint, is a more traditional
kind of show
even though it's live and things like that,
but we've been doing live for what, 14
years. Right. Something. So so for us, live
is not something new, but it... But for
a lot of
newer creators out there. It's like like you've
been saying,
video is a is a component that is
is an extra level of challenge. I think
is the honest thing, and it and it
may not be the right thing for every
creator to jump in with both feet.
To do both, You know, and especially to
do live on top of that.
You know, it's still a small percentage though.
You know, It's it's a higher percentage than
it was. If it was 3 percent of
shows were doing video before now, maybe 5
or 6 percent.
A show that it includes a video component.
Yeah. But again,
you know, we see no slowdown in the
number of shows that are that are launching.
They're are starting new podcasts. It's just not
at
the forward pace that it was during Covid,
and we got spoiled during Covid too.
On the number of new shows that were
created and saw this, you know, this exponential
growth.
True.
So things are things are back to normal
when people are living their lives, and they
don't have time to do 3 shows anymore.
They're doing 1.
And
but again, I think I I think we
have to be careful
in saying that we're at peak podcasting because
I think maybe from a listener
standpoint,
we might be, but also, listeners are also
they have a lot of options right now.
They've got a lot of things that they
can,
you know, tune into. They can tune into
Tiktok.
Instagram,
real... I mean, just goes on and on
and on, the mono content that they can
consume. So... Right. Lots of choices. Yeah. They're
and in an... And I and I really
think that's a good thing.
So again, I think anyone that wants to
create
a podcast
that's considering a podcast,
it it still. It still remains the best
time ever
to start as far as a pure
Right. Pure audio podcast.
Because Nothing from a... Oh, go go talk
Just it's just... The the the lift to
get started is
almost nonexistent existent
anymore. Yeah. It's easier. No. It's easier some.
Right. You know, we're looking at... It's easier,
but, yet, it's it's it's so easy. It
it it it doesn't...
I guess,
doesn't instill the amount of challenge really.
That that is really inherently there to grow
audience.
I think what made the technology part of
it easy. Growing growing an audience again is
is that age problem that people have been
asking
since the beginning. Yeah. You have to work.
Yeah. And any any any any
suggestion that
there have people are having a harder time
now growing an audience.
In my opinion, that's total hog wash because
look at the tools you have
now to grow audience.
I mean, it's it's incredible.
All we had before was a website.
So now you've got all this opportunity
to promote a show
and get recognition and be discovered.
So, you know,
for someone to say, oh, I've Having trouble
growing my audience. Well,
maybe it's the content.
You have to look at that close. I
just don't
III don't buy the the
the excuse now that I'm having challenges building
an audience,
those that want to build an audience that
are dedicated to it, are gonna build a
great audience.
And again, what is the number that they're
looking for?
III think it has to all be put
into perspective,
people want instant success these days.
And
shows
no 1 has instant success on any platform.
I
Yeah. I... And I think 1 1 topic
that came up on on x as well,
It it it it kinda came up in
my mind as I was thinking about
some of the things as
kinda newer people to the medium look at
podcasting.
They see a certain kind of perspective on
where the podcast medium is right now. And
it does tend to lean a little bit
heavier on more kind of
modern concepts around podcasting.
And it doesn't really have always a a
lens to what the foundations of this medium
are really built on. And I guess, 1
of the things that I I created was
a kind of like a 4 point list
and thought I wanted to bounce them off
you to see if you agree with them
is that,
there there there's only like, 4 things that
have really changed in podcasting in the last
20 years. Right?
I think anyway, and and,
you obviously may have a different take on
it or an additional thing or something like
that. But I I pointed out really 1
the number 1 1 is ease of posting
an episode
via, you know, online tools, you know, for
audio and video to Rs feeds.
Back when we started, we didn't have that.
Well,
we had ease of posting. We didn't have
ease of our assessment
creation.
Yeah. Exactly. It's the publishing process. And what
I'm talking about now. It's, you know,
creating a post in an Rs feed. We
had to hand cob that. So what 1
of the big things that has come is
the ease of doing this. Right?
And but right I I have I hand
coded feeds for, like, 2 months.
You know, I know It didn't last. It
didn't last that.
So the... That was... So this consideration that
we hand coded feeds for years no. It
it it didn't know. I got saying... Yeah.
I'm not saying that we did, but Lip
actually was the first podcast host and date
They started making that available and was it,
late 2004. So it was only a few
months. Yeah. But that kinda of technology was
There was some other tools Yeah. There was
that made. Movable type had AAA
plug of sorts,
and I was on movable type for many
years.
And then
wordpress course had
from... You know, from its inception almost had
a
you, had some tools or I had to
plug in. So
yeah. I think that
you know, it's trying to play up the
the
innovations it's well it's has has happened with
the podcast hosting platforms that have
made all this so much easier than it
was when it's
So... I think from a posting standpoint,
you still have to write a title still
have to write a blog post. Oh, yeah.
You know... The basics are still... The base
it's it's just the pure basics. You know.
So from that perspective, it hasn't changed in
20 years. It's it's definitely easier by the
number of, providers out there.
That are, yep. You know, making it easy
to publish the show.
Yep. And then number 2 is Ad tech.
And
dynamic ad insertion. Oh. And the the attribution
stuff and the brand safety stuff. I think
those are that's like the second biggest
change that has happened, because back in the
early days of this medium and quite... For
quite a few years. I mean, I I
started working on
dynamic ad insertion technology back gonna work for
podcast 1 back in 20 14. I I
think we did DAI
at blueberry
for,
It's been a little. I had it for
a long time. We never used it. Yeah.
12:12 or 13 years.
So we we've had it a long long
time.
No. It's still not a product that is
used by
the majority of shows.
It's still... Even a show. Even a minority
of shows. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's
still... I mean, And, you know, and usually,
it shows that have grown
significantly. You know, they... They're big shows.
And, you know, the the the... Here's this,
you know, here's the fact that
still continues to this day,
90 percent of shows delivered 90 percent of
their lifetime downloads in the first 96 hours.
So you know. You know. So Da
for those 10. Doesn't really help that much.
It doesn't... You know, it it does from
the simple pack that the ads are there
anymore,
later on, they get removed
to a higher percentage of shows that
than they were before because you know, I've
got thousands of episodes where the ads are
baked in, and I'm I'm never worried about
pulling them out.
Right?
Actually, a lot of ways, I think Da
has made it possible to
to have more advertising in your show than
you would normally. And in and if you
look at the ad tech, you know, right
now, Ga is in trouble.
They are... Well, Haven't heard that What's what's
going on with? They've been called to the
carpet in Congress, but being, you know, basically,
having
moderation.
Well, they're classifying some content that is right
leaning
negatively. So
They've been biased. Yeah. So they've they've they've
have bias in there.
So, you know, the ad tech goes both
ways.
It's it's good and bad.
Yeah.
And the attribution stuff kinda carbs into privacy
issues too. So it's it's a little bit
of a,
you know, some of this ad tech stuff,
and I know you... It's a it it's
a soar subject.
Well, again... It's only for a small number
of shows that actually employ it. You know,
Yeah. Less than 10 percent of shows. I'm
sure are
using any type of ad tech whatsoever.
But, yet, there is a subset of the
podcast
industry or community whatever whatever that really relies
on this stuff, and it's really core to
what they do,
which is in some ways, relatively new phenomenon
as well,
that that we've we've developed kind of this
secondary kind of industry around podcasting that really
didn't exist
going back that far. I mean, I think
and and and yet, they can't get beyond
2000000000 dollars.
Well,
that was my bigger point of of this
kind of like this
this kind of peak that I was talking
about. I mean, it seems like we keep
hitting that 2000000000
dollar
number and we never quite ever get over,
and I know that the forecasters, you know,
like,
like, a lot of the bigger
media,
Ia and others keep forecasting. Like, well, it's
like, they're even forecasting for 20 24 that
we're gonna be up 12 or 13 percent
in 20 24, and I'm like, back up
to 2600000000.0.
But like we've said on this show many
times, it's like, I think we've seen that
projection like the last 5 years yeah. And
it's... We've never gotten there.
So
I don't know if it's gonna happen this
time, but I think considering
20 23 showed a 5 percent increase.
In add ad revenue, I think it's a
stretch to think that we're gonna get 12
percent in 20 24, given the market.
Yeah. I think it's it's definitely
you know, an aspirational
kind of projection... If any political
advertising trickle down into
podcasting, that'll help
this this year,
but, you know, that's gone next year. So
that's, you know, maybe a little bit of
more
ad spend that comes in because of that,
but politicians have not
traditionally
advertised and podcasting.
We don't get that windfall that radio
and television does. So... And and I think
part of it too is is a lot
of people don't wanna political ads on the
show even if it was
available.
Yeah. I mean, I
I do appreciate these these
research companies kind of like wanting to be,
you know, positive and, you know, try and
convince advertisers that this is a good medium.
And if you put out big numbers like
that.
Maybe there's a certain amount of bump that
can happen from people getting a perception that
I wanna get in
you know, get on the bandwagon and with
a winning medium. Right? What's growing and doing
well. Well, it's spirit... But, you know, with
the people that are
advertising and radio are definitely not shifting their
dollars directly in the podcasting.
There isn't this linear
switch. And coming Kinda connection between those 2
things. I think it's because there's so many
options now in places to advertise. Yeah. You
look at the the bombardment of advertising you
get on Facebook.
Mh,
you know, it in in your in your
timeline if you're It's it's ridiculous at the
load count.
Yeah. And you look at Youtube. If you're
not paying for premium, the load count, that's
in Youtube is just insane.
And it's like, watching
watching television. You know, every 7 minutes, boom.
You know, you're gonna Very. It's not even,
you know,
joined with easy transitions either. It just barges
right in the middle of the content. So,
you know, they they've they've made it so
intrusive that they, you know, it's forcing people
to pay them. If they wanna watch content
on Youtube forcing them to pay.
Yeah.
No. I'm sure that's a better model for...
Well, and there's something there's some podcast that
have
ad loads that way too. And
some of the edison stuff that just not
excuse me,
sounds proper stuff that just came out,
you know, indicates that
you know, there's a little bit of a
tendency to, you know, we're starting to see.
You know, it's not... It's not completely
an issue at this point, but there's there's
hints that it's an issue.
Always, as far as over saturation of ads?
Yeah. Yeah. You yeah. Think it has been
a danger of that with programmatic for a
long time. Well I've been seeing that that
growing least too easy. Did... I don't hear
an overloading a programmatic. I hear overloading of
host red ads. Oh, host rad. Yeah. Okay.
What's happening there too. Yeah. Looks huge.
You know, some of these shows have, you
know, 8 09:10 ads in them.
There's a lot more money in the host
reads stuff. Yeah. Typically. So I guess the
but the a bit of sense. But the
programmatic, even on our end,
the most you can opt into is too.
Per per break. Right. Well, 2 2 total.
Total for the whole... It doesn't matter how
long the Right. Episode is? Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
Okay. You know, because, you know, we're causing
it. Not all the platforms are that or
all, but that's why I get And that's
why I'm in stop listening to some shows.
Just because of the ad loads, But it's
mostly hosts reds. It's not programmatic that I'm
hearing
these high ad loads in
Okay. Well, there's no kind of, you know,
insertion limit there on the on the... Well,
it's not the regular host read if they're
using
Dynamic go ahead and
But if you're hearing... If if it non
Youtube bill, that's truly the programmatic,
you know,
bombarding you. Hell zone. Right? Yeah. You know?
Yeah. Totally. And and if you go. But
I was gonna say if you if you're...
In if you haven't been
subjected to a Youtube ad load, you would
be shocked if you're not paying, how heavy
it really is at this point.
Yeah.
And the third 1 that I picked as
far as big things that have changed is
spotify
entering the the medium. I mean, if I
think back... To the impact of even Microsoft
and Facebook and Google and all those... I
don't think that they... Any of those equate
to the impact that
that Spotify has had on the podcast medium,
whether we like it or not,
I think that that was a big inflection
point in the podcast medium. And then
and then the
the recording of audio and and video, you
know, the tools
getting cheaper and easier to use and and
has has really kind of fundamentally changed the
the medium, Like, being able to do this
show with a browser based tool is something
that didn't exist in the past. And and
so you can you can see where the
technology has really made it a lot easier
now. You know, these these road caster or
what whatever had just has so much
integrated technology into them that, you know, I
had to build out, you know, 20000 dollar
studio to do the things even even partially
what I'm doing right in my little,
you know, 400 or 500 dollar road broadcaster
or, you know, it's it's it's remarkable is
what it is.
Well, you know, if you think about
how long we've been doing video.
The tools.
The browser based tools have been there for
a long time.
Think about when we were using B or
you stream.
Right. Or lab? The lab? Oh, yeah. Blah.
Maybe it was blah.
Some.
But, you know, some of those did require
a rt t stream. So some of them
were not a hundred percent browser base, but
Yeah.
You know, I'm I'm worried We're gonna go
the other way and browser based stuff with
what Stream art is just done recently and
removing pricing for their product, and
you know, there's there's some question on what's
what's gonna happen with Stream.
Are they gonna roll that into a new
product
you know, but they remove...
You know, we'll see what happens, but it's
definitely easier.
If you look at Yeah cap 8 and
all the other tools are out there for
recording,
definitely easier to do
person to person interviews without having to have
a studio for sure.
Yeah. And there's there's other tools out there
too that are you know, are are are
competitive to to stream 2 that are doing,
you know, very similar things like Riverside and
squad cast and
And and a new 1 that's gonna be
launching here soon is called new basic media,
is a new kinda of live streaming platform
that's that's gonna be launching it at the
end of the month. And there's open source
tools too. So stuff that's not tied to
us. The Ob tool which. Yeah.
Extremely capable and that's actually completely free. Trying
to think of the other 1 that is
the people have
Don't use this much anymore. Oh my god.
It's wire cast.
Oh, wire cast. Right. Yeah. And then and
then there's rest stream too, which is pretty
pretty powerful. Yeah. And rest stream, you know,
and I use, obviously for
just 1 1 stream in multi stream out.
I probably don't use half of the functionality
of
of,
of rest stream. But again, those do require
a little bit more
tech avenue and sending
you know, in our T p's feed to
it.
Yeah.
Oh, 0 to kinda jump back on the
earlier topic, Todd, where you had mentioned about
how listeners may be slowing a little bit.
The
the research out out there from Edison does
show
that from 20 22 to 20 23,
listeners relationship grew by 5 percent, which is,
you know, it from a historical perspective, that's
a pretty good clip.
Because if you go back and in in
time, typically, it's usually around 3 or 4
percent,
is is what we have typically seen on
a yearly basis of listeners growth. But from
20 23
through
what we know so far in 20 24,
only up 3 percent.
So so that may be a sign that
maybe a listeners relationship maybe kind of, you
know, plateau a little bit now. Again
slow that could also be just a temporary
blip because we've seen that fluctuation. Yeah. Over
time too. Some years it goes up. 3
or 4 percent. Some years it goes up
6 percent. Some years... You know, so it's
this back and forth thing. As long as
it's plus
up
every year, but there is a there is
a ceiling to this, Todd. I'm not sure
that
it's.
But It's been a so many people. It's
been a long time since I run into
someone that did not know what a podcast
was.
Not necessarily that they are listening.
You know, be... Again, because of the perception
now that, you know, everything's up a podcast,
you know, no matter where you listen or
watch, you know, everything is considered a podcast
now. So...
Yeah that's true.
Especially in the the research that's coming out
continuously
hammering this
this
thought that
you know, Youtube is the dominant podcast consumption.
Yeah Well, okay. I mean, they they can
they can keep on selling
the Youtube marketing
speak
per s. But
but again, How why do you think that
the that that is going on? Mean, is
it all a fraud do you think? Or...
Well, where's the numbers Where's the numbers?
Where... I'm not saying it's fraud. Where's the
numbers?
Where where are where are all of these
listeners
and viewers? Where where are they?
If you look across 90 percent of shows
or 95 percent of shows on Youtube, they
have almost no
no
no uptake.
So that... Yeah, There are shows that are
very, very popular.
Mh. That are doing gang buster numbers.
You know, millions of views, but that doesn't
trickle down.
It's not trickling down. So what what you
have
is a mh.
A a very concentrated
audience
on a few shows
on Youtube. And if Few shows probably 2
or 300.
Shows on Youtube that have this high concentration
of
listeners and viewers,
but yet,
if you look at the average Joe or
Jane,
podcast on Youtube. They don't... They're not getting...
They're they're definitely getting more listens
than they are
on podcast apps,
then they are on
then they are on Youtube. So again, you've
got a high percentage of audience concentrated on
a
small number of shows
they're definitely driving this
this narrative.
So have you watched podcast podcasts on Youtube.
Yeah. Sure. But it's 1 of, like, 2
or 300 shows.
And again,
you go much deeper than that.
Those numbers don't Don't translate
down downward
into the majority of shows that are on
Youtube today.
Yeah.
This this study came out. It's the spring
20 24 report from c media and signal
hill insights
called the the podcast download.
And it it talks about in this this
report I haven't found the slide yet, but
says
Youtube is the most utilized podcast listening platform
in the Us, say 31
percent.
Of its
surveyed.
Again, a high...
A 21 percent said Spotify and 12 percent
said apple.
Again, a high number of people concentrated
on a small number of shows.
So
I have no doubt that the survey data
they're getting is right.
But it doesn't translate downward into the average
podcast.
Yeah. I mean, I think the I think
you have to look at this data
from what it really says it's telling you
and that's...
Youtube is the most utilized podcast listening forms
in the minds
of 31 percent of people out there. That
are listening to a constant cons... The concentrated
number
of Well, they think that they're they're
consuming a podcast. Well, they they are Then
in they are, and it's fine. I'm not
gonna I'm not gonna argue about the definition
of podcasting. But again, Right they are
in their mind, but again, it is concentrated
to a relatively small number of shows.
Mh. So
I have no doubt that their people are
saying this.
Yep.
But at the same time,
the spotify phenomenon, what we're starting to see
now,
And we've seen this growing over the past
year
is spotify podcast
per s,
wanting
greater flexibility
to produce their shows. So while they're still
seeing success on Spotify,
they're not in this
those a lot of shows are moving from
hosting on Spotify, successful shows that I wanna
grow and have more tools
they're moving to more traditional podcast host
per s, just because of the breadth of
of tools available.
And
yet, they came out this number that, you
know, they're posting this number of video
on
Spotify, and I have yet. Have you watched
a video podcast on Spotify?
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I watch Joe. Well, rolling
and Okay. So Right.
I I just don't see...
I love to know what people's uptake numbers
are because those those numbers are not at
all public.
I how people are doing
on spotify video.
Again, it's
It's it's a interesting
interesting move here.
Yeah. I found a slide that that was
part of that deck that I'm getting earlier
And it says a tale of 3 studies.
It says a weekly podcast consumers use Youtube
and Spotify most often.
It says here on this study, It shows
the c media signal hill insights
shows 31 percent
Youtube, 21 percent, Spotify, 12 percent apple. The
digital
needs to be asked is what podcast?
Are you listening to
on Youtube, which podcast are you? And I'm
sure it's pretty more broad
on Spotify.
I think that question needs to be asked.
Because when I still, today,
look at the consumption numbers,
at least in my statistics,
you know, Apple is still from a total
listener
number,
still... That's a download number. Yeah. But still,
it's it's it's it's about 50 percent.
Yeah. Yeah. But it's it's tracking different data
than what these folks are tracking.
Eat So... Yeah. It's not it's it's not
comparable. They're and they're really asking, you know,
how many people listen on Spotify. And if
if if Spotify is driving listens, that's that's
great.
You, I have no doubt people are listening
Spotify, but people are not listening to this
show on Spotify.
Yeah. And then
the other 2 studies in here, Triton
digital podcast metrics
Yeah. 34 20 plus quarter 01:20 24 shows
you Youtube 34
percent, which is even higher than the chemo
1 at 31 percent.
And then spotify at 27 percent and apples
at 13 percent, which is slightly higher. But
again and most research. It's it's the perspective.
You can throw these numbers out all day
long.
But is that is that
is that trickling down
to the average podcast.
It's not.
Well, okay. These are...
I'm not talking about podcast right here. They're
talking about consumers. Can consumers. Podcast. But again,
what they're receiving is... Yes. But when you
tell a podcast... Experiencing. When you tell a
an a podcast
who is not
They just hear a number. Third 34 percent
of podcasts are being
30 34 percent of. They the way they
hear it is,
34 percent of podcast podcasts are being consumed
on you Youtube. Well, that's mh not true.
But there's a that there is a... Not
what this number should not telling anybody. But
that's the way they perceive it.
That's right. That's how now this the podcast
perceives.
And there content creators out there that are
making
decisions based on this data. Right. And they're
making a
prioritization decision and choice based on this data.
Even the Edison research
shows a pretty high percentage for Youtube at
27
percent Right and Spotify at 29 percent. Again.
Seamless and Triton and Edison.
Need to go to the next step?
They need to go to the next step
and say okay, what are the top 10
shows
that you're watching on
Youtube.
And I guarantee you
that will be a very concentrated
number of shows.
Yeah. That will make that list.
So
I think while the audience is there, and
they're discovering podcast are there. If you look
at the billions,
and I used say that, you know,
big word billions of downloads that are happening,
the majority of the
actual listening to podcast podcasts are still happening
in additional podcast apps.
Yeah. And I'm sure that there's a lot
of consumption happening in the in the Youtube
platform
of consumers that think that they're
consuming a podcast. I think they just a
Youtube channel. But I think... I, you know,
I think again, I'm not going to try
to to to to defend the definition of
a podcast because then we... Were the t
again.
So, again, if they're cons... If they think
they're consuming a podcast on Youtube great.
That's fine.
Again, it's a concentrated
number of
those types of
shows
on, again,
I think people have to
take into account
that this is what consumers are saying, not
exactly where the actual download numbers are coming
from you. Yeah. Right. Yes.
It's a different kind of data. Is what
what it is. And this slide is interesting
too because it
It plays on another aspect of it 2.
It says you Youtube is the number 1
most used platform among consumers
regardless of tenure of heavy use. So what
what they're saying here is that if you're
AAA
podcast
newcomer. Mh.
That's 32 percent or or or seeing Youtube.
If you're a podcast pioneer
31 percent. So the number is slightly less.
Yeah. Right?
But if you're a heavy podcast consumer, it's
actually
It parity
with the with the newcomers. But the question
again, then is what are they the listening.
It's true, but what are they listening 2,
or watching.
You know, there again, It's it's about context.
Well, are you saying that because you're trying
to factor in a a total
percentage of the podcast space?
Is what you're trying to calculate here because
it's all about what people think that they're.
Okay. So... Okay. I I understand that. But
Mh. Just Blueberry alone. We have over 300000000
listens of content
every month.
Right. So you take whatever Lips has, whatever
pod bean has, whatever buzz pro has, whatever
red circle has,
add all that up.
To the total number of where the actual
people are consuming the content in a in
a quote unquote traditional way
and then you roll that back into...
And maybe that number's is equal on Youtube.
Because you have a concentrated number of shows
that are getting incredibly high numbers.
So so maybe,
there's a billion, let's say, a billion
listens
on
traditional podcast apps, and a billion
video views. Some... But again,
if there's a billion
of podcast listens across 330000
shows,
There's a much different
percentage of of listens. It's so this... Let's
say it's a billion on Youtube. Just podcast.
Okay okay. People that consider a show a
podcast
on Youtube.
I bet you that's
constrained to
no more than a couple of thousand shows.
Yeah.
I could I could totally see that
Especially if those shows are a very popular.
Yeah.
Video shows on on Youtube and they
they're like us right now. 2 people or
3 people talking on a microphone.
But if and and if you look at
the Youtube podcast
area, there's not as show in that listing
at all
that is audio only. There's no there's no
there's none.
Yep.
So Right.
That makes... Makes sense when you think about
it, Right? What is Youtube strength? Youtube strength
is a is a video platform. So when
you... And again, you look at the numbers
on those particular shows, that are in that
section. Yeah. They're incredible. There's some incredible numbers
in there on some of those shows, but
yet not so incredible
that
it overcomes at least if I just do
it, a quick count.
You know, if we if we do the
math, which we probably could.
Again, it's a very, very concentrated in very
few shows. I, So this is the thing
I keep trying to tell podcast when they
are talking about me, should I do video?
Yeah. You do video if you wanna do
video.
But please have a
realization
that your
audio listing numbers are always gonna be higher
then your video numbers are going to be
for the most part for most shows.
Mh.
And even this show, we run about 70
30.
Out. Yeah. 70 percent listened, you know, about
30 percent, actually watched the
traditional
video podcast podcasts. It's a true video podcast.
So.
We're talking
we're talking about this topic a lot.
Well, because it is top of mind. I
mean, it's like at the top of all
the resources coming out. Todd, and And I
think people need to
dive into it a little bit. It's like,
this particular of this slide I have up
on the screen. It may be a little
hard to read.
I can probably kinda zoom in a little
bit more on it. But it says in
April 20 24, it says,
there's been a trend line of
Youtube and Spotify having
been growing amongst
newcomers at the expense of Apple podcast. But
again the trend line here, and then it's
been growing.
Looks like you Youtube is at 32 percent
and
spotify at 18 and apples at 6. So
so the top 20 24. The problem though
is when you throw a slide like this
up there. Again, the perception is,
well, all the content consumption is happening on
Youtube and Spotify. Well, it's not.
It's not happening on Youtube or Spotify.
The majority of the consumption over 50 percent
is still
happening on Apple podcasts in a pure
download
listen
metric.
Most of the services are hovering in and
around 50 percent. So and some have went
a little below,
but still, To say,
that... So there's this disconnect here between
percentage of actual... You know I I'd be
curious to know,
Okay, Triton. How much are you billing?
Yeah. You're you're you're an audio platform.
Okay, Triton. How much are you
billing, how much money are you making on
Youtube?
You know, where is like... Well, increasingly total,
these agencies that are selling advertising are are
are bundling Youtube numbers with
podcast podcasts now smart. In there. It chose
to advertise if they have shows that are
doing substantial numbers, they should be. Both. Yeah.
On both. Right? But at the same time,
I bet you those numbers are... I bet
you they're not getting the same Cpm on
those Youtube views as they are in podcast
listens.
So I... I'm just trying to pay devil's
advocate here and making sure that you know,
people are Are paying attention to the context
of the data.
And again, I'm not doubting the numbers of
percentage of of consumption? But again, where is
it concentrated at? I think Tom Webster made
a
recently had put something up about this type
of a,
phenomenon as well. You know, It's this this
consumption is really concentrated at the very, very
top.
And
within those platforms.
And, but he's also been
very much
amongst the research that's showing that a, Youtube
is is really kind of
starting to lead the way around.
But again, a context. We have to make.
We have to give them... We have to
give
the correct
context of how is that trickling down to
the average podcast?
How is that Yeah. Because if you if
you tell a podcast that 31 percent is
discovery,
okay. Discovery... Discovery of what number of shows.
Again, it's a small number of shows.
Yeah.
But this is an overall number from the
people that they're doing a survey? Right. Right.
To say,
where are you most likely
discovering on your podcast or a podcast? Yes.
It... You know, that... These are what the
numbers that are coming back showing. It makes
sense.
It's not AAA
metric of consumption. No not at all. Of...
Yeah. Discovery and finding something that may be
interesting. But again, it's concentrated
continues to be concentrated at the top because
Youtube has got a log rhythm, and they
will surface
popular shows.
They will surface popular show is in people's
speeds. And of course you're gonna discover stuff.
But again, it's a concentrated number of
you basically, the rich keep getting richer on
Youtube. The popular shows continued to grow and
continue to build audience
at the at the detriment,
not at the detriment, but just, you know,
the
the the average Joe Podcast
is not getting discovered on Youtube? You asked
your audience, how did you discover me those
of you that are building actively on Youtube,
and I guarantee you 9 out of 10
will say
that they discovered you from a recommendation
or
potential search, they did not discover you on
Youtube. Whereas, if you have a big Youtube
channel,
It's probably the opposite.
90 percent of the people probably said, oh,
I found you right here on Youtube.
That's because they're
because of the el log pushing those big
shows
into people's feeds.
So Yeah. And the... You know, and again,
I'm not I'm not poo poo
These content platform consumption platforms as long as
it's driving
numbers. It's great in building awareness,
but
it builds a false narrative for someone that's
researching and and doing
their initial,
you know, initial
planning on how to do their podcast. Oh,
I have to have a Youtube channel.
Well... Yeah. I think, Todd, also what's going
on here too and and
this research, and I Haven't found the slide
for it yet, but I saw it in
the notes it says,
those who discover a podcast on Youtube say
they stick with
the platform
for the video. So Right. What we may
be talking about here really
is kind of 2 different audiences, 2 different
types of consumption audiences.
Right? Those that like video and those that
like audio. Yeah. And and there is this
kind of this
audience out there that likes to do a
little bit of both. Sure. Right. And and
that's the research that I haven't really seen
yet is is what's that distribution? I mean,
what's the percentage of people that are primarily
video podcast consumers? And what's the percentage of
audio podcast consumers?
On how do we kinda parse that data
between the 2 and how many are doing
both? Well, you you look at Youtube They
do not surface.
Good luck finding an audio only podcast you
have to you have to know the show
that's audio only on Youtube. You have and,
you know, go look at those shows on
Youtube.
Look at their numbers.
It's... Well, you know?
It's it's kinda silly. Isn't it to put
audio up on a video
primary platform? Well, that's right. That's you know,
that's what Youtube sold is a... You no.
Agree. It does make a lot of sense
to me. So You know. So
you know, you know what? They don't support,
you know, Rs ingestion of a video.
No.
But they convert an audio file to a
video file.
Right. Which it... Which even makes less sense
for the more you think about it. Yeah.
So it's it's
Yeah. I mean, it's it's completely asked backwards
and then what what what what what we
talked about, you know, what Spotify is doing.
Yeah. Where there's they're taking in the audio
podcast and they're giving now podcast is the
option to replace the audio
file that's been delivered to them via assess
with a video file. Right. Yeah. It's also
kind of wack as well. Right? Yeah. They
don't want you leaving the platform. They wanna
contain that data. They wanna contain and market
to your audience
because they have all this data. And that's
another thing podcast have, you know, like, you
know, used to be we're worried about
list or privacy. Well, you know, that's that's
not even a topic anymore.
Yeah. So if you're on Spotify, you've completely
sold out your audience. Right
to Spotify. You know, you you you basically
handed
handed their,
you know, their
their their, you know,
their privacy to them.
Right.
Yeah. That's true.
We'll, here, Todd over the last
probably 24
48 hours. There was a threat of conversation
that had a little bit of focus on
this show, And I thought maybe I would
I would raise it. It was done
on x,
and, I exchanged
you know, messages about this, and and it
was done with
John at, John podcasting on x.
And and his thoughts are
once the live show is done, and he
was... I think he was referring specifically to
this show, but I think he thinking about
it more
more philosophically from this concept of
doing a live show. And whether or not
it's worth it to do a live show.
I I think it's kinda like 2 parts
to
his commenting, but
you know, his his thought was we should
edit
this show
for replay. Right. So any kind of ability
that we have to edit this program
prior to going out as either an audio
or video podcast. I do try and do
that with this show sometimes. And and... But
but also, you know, realize that when this
goes out live,
we don't inherently touch it once once it
goes out live, and I I do know
that Youtube has the ability to get and
do some editing of it but then you're
posting a new version and it's
it's kind of kind of a mess, You
know, until Youtube kinda gets their act together
off... If if John has, if John would
like to edit shows
and donate his time.
Great.
Well, todd, I won't work kind of doing
it Right right now.
You know, and and I... I don't think
that people are seeing that because they're they're
watching the the replay off of x and
Linkedin and... They're not. So and who's did
consumption beyond this live is very minimal.
We get the majority of our
talk... Up to 3400
plays off of my channel this. Alright. I
get Less than a hundred.
So no. But
But people are seeing this show on replay
off of x Linkedin,
and you Youtube. If you go in and
you add up all the numbers on all
those platforms at least off of my channels.
It's it's a couple thousand per episodes. So
there are people that are watching. I don't
know how long they're watching right. Right?
That's a whole... I don't know how about
how long they're watching on Apple
either.
Right. And and so John's point was I
don't get the point of leaving all the
fumble and dead air,
and and it's...
Well, good good luck editing video.
You know?
If I had... It's audio too. I mean,
that can be edited on the audio side,
separately Yeah. And it and it sounds like
shit when you do that. Because all the
all the air is gone out of the
show when you start compressing
every
every blank spot and taking air out of
the audio.
Mh. It you can tell it's been edited.
You can tell it's just it it... The
pacing is not the same.
So...
It says that
you guys are supposed to be leaders,
and your show comes across
like 2 old white dudes
reading the Internet. Well...
Okay. So here's the thing... True to some
degree. Here's the thing. Right.
Into his argument.
If you have time to edit, edit it.
If you want to
survive and be able to continue to create
content for 20 years,
and
put out a show every week,
for 20 years or 2 shows a week,
like... Or for me, for 3 shows a
week, total,
or even 4 because I'm doing a blueberry,
which we do edit the blueberry version of
my... Of the show that I'm involved in.
You have to
say what is that worth in your time?
And
I, I'm too busy. I I don't have
time Right to edit.
And Yep. Todd, todd, that you have to
admit that there is a ideology out there
that's covered to that. Great.
Great then they can knock knock themselves out,
knock themselves out and
and and edit it edit it away.
Right. I'm not gonna do it. And... That's
a beauty.
That's a beauty of podcasting. I can do
it my way, and the he can do
it. His way. Oh, like, now now this
is from a guy that has 884
followers
on
an x.
So Yeah.
You know,
I'm not so sure that I'm gonna take
advice
on my podcast, from someone that has 884
followers on
on X.
So
Again. I told him that, you know, we
we've been doing this show this way for,
like, 14 years. Yeah.
And that, you know, it's it's worked out
fine for us, and we've been okay with
with what we've been doing right for a
long time, and he wrote back saying,
just because you've been doing something a long
time doesn't mean much.
I are you may have
been doing it wrong all along. Oh, well,
you know, then then if we've done it
wrong all along,
we have...
We will have paid the price
and not building a bigger audience, but at
the same time, we are doing a show
that has a limited reach.
We're not doing a show for the for
Joke public.
No. This isn't a show that's ever gonna
get you, huge. No.
It's never gonna be a joe oregon program.
You know. Right? I think, you know, the
top the top number of downloads we've ever
ever had for the show was closer. 20000.
You know, that would be, like,
very, very high
on the consumption standards. It's probably you when
we had
The 2 folks are Facebook owners. Actually no.
It's the... Was it Google? Our worst shows
are when we have a guest.
Alright. Now so.
Yeah.
Well, you know, the the top show, the
top episode of this on Youtube
on, my channels was over... I think it
was 3600
views,
and it was us talking about
podcasting in Youtube. Oh, of course. Because everyone
is searching for that. Right so. Right. Everybody
it was extremely meta to the platform.
And and it's like,
there was another person clone flu,
made a comment even the thread to people
waste years of repeating the same mistakes that
because they're too proud to learn.
Be helpful.
You don't know everything.
We don't mentor knowing everything. I don't. Totally.
That's exactly what I told you. You know.
And in in in the Beauty, we're doing
a show that we can do that sustainable.
Right? You know? But also, you know,
people have to be careful about being
judgmental about other people.
You know, and it's also, you know,
trying to decide what's right and wrong,
is is kind of a slippery slope. I
mean, I'm not sure that, you know, each
person...
I mean, this is what podcasting was built
on was kinda of, like independent free choice,
and this is
blank canvas. Now granted, people have different ideologies
around
what's good content, what's bad content. What's the
right thing to do and what's the wrong
thing to do. And that's been the
interesting part of this medium for all these
years? Is it nobody has really the perfect
answer... When I was at pot Asia,
session after session after session was talking about,
this is the things you have to do.
This is what you have to do. You
know,
dictating, this is what you have to do
to have a successful podcast.
I get up there and said, listen.
You do you. You build a show that
country you want. You can do what you
want. There's no rules.
And I got the biggest round of applause
from the audience
and basically saying, you don't have to do
what is a cookie cutter show that you're
being told to do.
Okay. Someone's found the proven strategy,
maybe,
But when someone tells save work for them,
but that doesn't mean we work for you.
When someone tells me you have to do
this, I say, okay. Show me your successful
show.
Right. Show me your show
in how it's been so successful.
And and I will take a look. But
if your show is not more successful
than my show and you're telling me I
have to do things exactly this way.
Pack sand.
You know, I'm...
Again,
yeah, this is this is the beauty about
this median. I don't have to have a
Youtube strategy.
I don't have to have a podcast strategy.
I do the show the way we want
to do the show,
and we put it out the way we
wanted to put out.
Hasn't hurt us...
And then, we're not getting paid to do
this.
We don't have a sponsor
for this podcast. Right.
Yeah. And, maybe we are 2 old white
guys.
But we've been doing for much. We can
do about that. So I could, you know,
we doing this for 20 years.
I must be doing something right with my
tech show. I Godaddy is still sponsoring it
for 19 years straight.
So there must be something I'm doing correct.
No 1 else can say that we had
the same sponsor for 19 years.
Hell that's certainly true. You know? So, you
know,
show me... I can say that. Show me
the money. If you if you have such
a successful
formula.
And I and I got the Godaddy sponsorship
before there was a blueberry.
Or Rob voice.
That came that that that dad came before
I was running a company.
Mh.
So,
it is what it is.
And that's a beauty about this medium is
you, you do you.
Right.
Right. It's true.
And I do think that that's that's the
key takeaway from this whole thread of the
conversation as it
I think there's a tendency
in the more recent years of people being
very, like you said, very rigid, judgmental
trying to, you know, build and let's say,
a consulting business to say, well, I know
how to do this better than anybody else
so pay me, and I'll be your consultant.
Right. I'll I'll tell you how to do
every little aspect of this.
And it's it... I find it to be
a difficult
conversation being
being a a podcast consultant because there is
no 1 way to do this. Right? And
I'm not an expert at...
I mean, I've been doing podcasts a long
time, but I wouldn't say that I'm an
expert at to tell every person exactly what
to do and that will make them success
The biggest cringe, the biggest cringe that my
team gets
is when the phone rings and
the person on the other end is a
consultant.
If if if if if we had...
I I could give 1 of my support
people
a raise.
If if we just... Every time someone called
and said they were a consultant. I and
we put 10 dollars in the kitty,
and
the an, it causes
because...
Well, they might be good video editors.
But the majority of them don't know Jack
about
the overall podcasting space.
They might be great audio editors.
But they don't know Seo. They don't even
know what a feed is. They don't know...
I mean, it's just it just is amazing
to me.
The number of so called experts
that are out there that are selling their
ware
and
hate to say it.
They're making it up as they go because
they don't know.
Well, I think it's very difficult for any
1 individual to know everything about this industry
now. I think it's
it's it's a little hub to think that
you can know. I mean, I've been around
it a long time. You've been around it
a long time. And I've spent quite a
bit of time trying to learn
all of the podcast hosting platforms and how
they work and all this kinda like that.
And I find it very challenging
to be able to have a thorough understanding
of all these platforms,
because each 1 of them is different, and
they function differently and the distribution has become
much more sophisticated now complicated.
So, I mean, 1 really has to spend
a lot of time now to keep up
with everything.
I think the guy that I probably probably
respect more than anything now on that front
is probably Dave Jackson.
Well, he's... He's been able to keep up
with all this stuff. And where we're building
a cons a consulting course.
And Mh.
It's almost done.
And we're gonna charge for it. And if
you
get through the course, it's gonna be 12
weeks.
If you... And you're gonna mandatory to actually
10
training
an hour a week for 12 weeks, then
we will put you as a
a certified consultant for, at least for blueberry.
But
oh, that's...
Seo in the age of Ai, I think,
yeah that's a whole that's a whole show
in itself.
But I will say that
Ai is improving
what was before nonexistent existent show notes?
Yeah. And and
how far is that gonna go, Todd? I
mean,
Jody, that's a good good point that you're
making.
You know,
Seo could go away. Ai could could could
integrate in with the very fabric of the
publishing process? Well, what's gonna... What could really
happen is
Google, the gatekeeper to search.
It could be devastating.
I. We've looked I know I'm I'm spend
a lot more time doing queries and chat
Gp
Omni. Now. I'm not doing as much in
Google anymore. Yeah. That's what she's referring to
as per complexity Ai.
But ultimately, when Google gets her act together,
it searches as you know what it's gonna
change, and this is gonna be the problem
is that you won't be found in search.
And
they're going to
Google and complexity and all these folks are
gonna be picking winners
through the large language models, and the traditional
Seo stuff is
is is going to affect every business
not just media creators.
It it could be potentially devastating. So I
think what is happening is people are starting
to realize
that
having their brand everywhere is going to be
critical.
Because if you're not
spread wide.
If you're just building your business on your
dot com,
and
and I'm not talking about podcast. I'm just
talking about business in general.
If you are that local plumber
or whatever business you are and someone is
trying to find your business,
you have to be wide now. That's the
only way you're probably gonna because
the large language models is looking at multiple
data points. And if you aren't available on
multiple data points,
how is it gonna recommend you?
If you're a sole point of presence is
just your dot com,
I think you're screwed.
So I I think the future of media
creation is probably very, very bright because if
you aren't creating media on all of the
platforms,
podcasting, Youtube,
Instagram,
tiktok. If you're not doing it,
when when the Ai
search changes, and you look at this stuff
that
that Apple... I mean, not Apple this piece
of crap that
was it for the Apple intelligence? And not
Apple. The
I'm looking for the word here.
It's called the
Ai
overview that Google came out with?
Absolutely
trash, but Google's all in on that. So
if you don't make it into an overview,
which will ultimately be people gonna ask a
question. You know, what is the best tech
podcast? What is the best
you better have a wide presence
because the
overview starts to what's gonna just like per
complexity.
That's how search is gonna change. So...
But... Yeah. I just applied for that for
my own personal brand. So So I think
what will happen ultimately
is that
you
you the creator, you, the podcast are creating
original content
is what's gonna be sought out.
I I think the future is bright just
from that perspective alone because
there is going to be a ton
a ton,
a ton of garbage.
So
Well, Todd, I can see a lot of
correlation to what we have gone through
with these
you know, the
smart agents from from Google and Amazon. Right?
These he's talking kind of
boxes in our homes. Right?
Of being a single
results type of a scenario. Right? So
So as you look at Ai,
Ai it is gonna give you answers, not
results. Right. You know what I'm saying? Is
not gonna give you links. And if you...
If in there... It may give you links.
But in the context to the results. But...
Yeah. It'll be very easy. They're gonna gonna
be narrower. It's not gonna get very there.
50 pages. Right. Links that you have to
comb through to find information. It's gonna give
you 1 result and there's the danger.
Right. And before results.
Like I did a query for, like, the
top 10
podcasts about podcasting. Yeah. And just just to
give an example here. And it it it
came up with us,
I believe
in the number 1 spot.
And that just... I'm not quite sure why.
Yeah.
It did that, but it just may longevity
or whatever it or wide. We have a
wide enough presence, maybe.
Again, I think, you know, I think
this is a gonna be a bigger issue
for the whole world
because businesses
to date
have relied on
being in that top search result.
And and, you know, being able to be
found for a keyword, which I think you
know, be honest with keyword word phrase.
I think Google
faces real challenges here.
Oh, yeah.
Because how do they tie this back? How
do they keep the ad model
rolling
when you're doing it
an overview
That's that's the trillion dollar current question right
there is Yeah. Is what happens to the
advertising industry. Yeah. As this rule work. Yeah.
But again,
on the opposite token, you might have to
buy your way to the top.
You might have to
give
give them money just to be seen
in any forthcoming search result because that they're
there already have been king makers
But this is going to
you know, it's going to ramp up even
more.
You know, per complexity is a great product.
But as soon as Google gets their act
together,
they're gonna eat.
Yeah... Count out
Microsoft with their c copilot either.
Got their their fingers in open Ai.
And now Apple is is trying to do
that too? Did do you know that the
the 2 folks 1 from Apple and 1
from Microsoft have been removed from the open
Board. Well, they have... No. They have... They
don't... That haven't been removed. They have observer
positions on the board.
Well, they they pulled themselves out because they
were being investigated for antitrust by the government?
When did that happen?
Because it was just in last last couple
of days. Oh, because I reported on Monday
that Apple had been given
Yeah. And they pulled out. Wow. Because because
the government, the antitrust folks were starting to
investigate,
what was going on with Open Ai and
Apple and
Microsoft.
You know, And, I mean, obviously, Google is
a competitor to that, but
that's kinda like a, you know, that's the
development of a monopoly is what's happening with
ai.
Again, I think in the end,
Well, if they have the money.
Well, you know, that's... A lot of market
presence between apple and micro they've got millions
of not maybe millions, but they have a
huge investment in, you know, video chips and
the tools that needed to
But again, I think ultimately,
I think our content
podcast content,
Youtube content,
will be sought out because people are gonna
be looking for
genuine
voices,
and personalities. I think you there's gonna be
a trust... You know, like you said, your
trust factor
no. It... People are gonna be seeking
stuff that has not been
curated
and ground out by by an Ai. Because
people there's... They've set up you know, paper
mills now, and it really not a paper
mill. It's a
digital printing mill where they're putting up thousands
and thousands of articles every day.
To
to drive traffic to their websites all that
generated by Ai
with very little
overview of the quality of the content.
So with this influx of... You know, you...
Used to be we would be limited by
the number of articles we could write
as humans,
you know, that's why my personal website from
a budget standpoint
and
you know, I could basically afford to have
about 30 articles a month put on geek
central.
Mh. But if I turned on the printing
machine,
I could,
quote, unquote,
feed it 10 press releases,
and have it rewrite to press releases as
blog post and probably put out 10 a
day easily just myself in a matter of
a few minutes.
But again, is it dr?
Is it accurate? Is it real?
There's copyright
concerns
you know, it just goes on and on
and on.
So who's gonna be who's gonna be the
bearer of the trusted voice
or
site,
you know, our our consumer. Are we going
to put, like, right now, we're not generating.
The only thing we're generating on central or
new media show is the summary of the
show,
from Ai.
So.
Are we gonna have to have markers on
every piece of content that is... Or every
blog post that's put out that says,
human generated or Ai generated?
And is the source of the information that
we we used
to write that article, was it Ai generated.
So we, you know, we taken an Ai
generated our article, what is real anymore? You
know? So
and with with the pressure to cut budgets
folks like Cn and the verge and in
gadget and any other
Mh.
Newspaper,
they're gonna be awfully tempted to just turn
on the printing press with a with Ai
and gu
stuff out.
Yeah.
Jody Craig post,
What I love about the tools like per
complexity is that they offer
citations of their sources. They cite the source.
Yeah. She writes in here. You and you
never know with chat
Gp if it made it up,
let alone where it got its info from
though I have seen in chat, Gp, some
results that cite
sources.
But just remember... Know that the the c
copilot,
version of chat
Gp on Microsoft. That does site sources because
of its integration with Bing. Well let's just
be careful though.
This is not true Ai yet. This is
a large language model that is
is machine learning is all it is right.
So
generative Ai is a different beast.
Yeah. That's that's gonna create new content, not
something that's Yeah. They're agitated a source. Yeah.
So, you know, what we have now is
the large language model is
basically you've taken, you know, millions and billions
of pieces of data, and then it tries
to
come up with the words.
That you've... That it think you're looking for
without any regards to accuracy or anything like
that. So. Yeah. I think what... What's happening
here is this recognition by the big search
engines, and I believe Google's is probably doing
this as well is trying to combine their
search business with their Ai business. Oh, yes.
They they know that their all the revenue
came out of the search side. So if
they can kinda of blend those together somehow,
Maybe they're well
an ongoing kind of
sponsored link up well. They their Ai platforms.
Yeah. Well, they are going to be
How do you...
If... This thing that this piece of crap
that Google came out with, this
Ai
reviews,
which was telling you, okay, what how do
I make a pizza?
You know, it it suggested you use glue
to keep the cheese on the pizza. You
know that... That's how bad the Ai overview
was.
So how do you...
So let's let's say someone goes to Google,
and the first thing they get is an
Ai
overview.
With
maybe potentially links below it,
most consumers are gonna take the Ai overview.
And they're just gonna run with that.
And
it's showing up now in the circles are.
Yeah. So the Google. So the problem then
becomes
how do you as a creator business?
How do you get source
sighted?
You may not.
Mh. You may not. And you may not
ever be found.
So your your business
could could literally die just because of
this change because you won't be found anymore.
So what strategy,
you know? It it's it's it's it's a
real
it's a real issue. And at the same
time,
Google's got to recognize that.
If they stop driving traffic
to my site to my business,
from search queries because the Ai picked 2
winners.
Todd. I I recently noticed,
well, I don't know how recent... It's been
a few months now. That,
chat Gp
actually learns
from what information you feed it.
And I I do think I saw a
an announcement that says And technically, it's not
as a host to. But it actually will
learn from your data. So if you feed
it, this is a derivative
I guess, functionality that came out of their
their Gp product. Right? Right. It's actually you
can train it. Right? So it's looking for
training data? So
what does that mean for us from the
standpoint of of individuals and our companies
that maybe we need to be feeding it
information
about our companies and about us that we
wanted it to know. Well, I I'm a
firm believer that
I'm not turning on any blocking at blueberry
dot com.
Right. Because
my... If you're a podcast broadcaster, it's the
same scenario. Right? My...
Chat Gp to have access to all my
perspective is is, again, if if if I
shut off the... You know, this is what,
you know, in new york times all those
folks are signing in, you know, multi billion
dollar, you know, deals.
To consume this content.
But for me,
as a business,
I think it it boils down to.
I've been feeding it information
for a long time now. Trying to get
it to to generate
results that are
favorable.
I think,
over time, we'll see how this all evolves
but.
Yeah, search. Yep. And you talk about discovery.
So, you know, that's why discovery is happening
and more discoveries happening in have. Because most
people just touching their app and doing a
search, and
they're not using Google for a search.
Although my search traffic to my
personal website hasn't
evade. In other words, it hasn't been down.
Oh it hasn't hasn't went down. But Also,
I'm putting out better show notes now, so
we're getting more traffic
to
the blog post currently
even on New media show, our our web
traffic is up
just because there's richer show notes.
And she's not just a short paragraph that
I summarize, I have the whole show summary
in the show notes now. So
And I wasn't even drinking my own... Well,
I'm eating Central I was drinking my own
ko aid, but a new media show it
wasn't.
Mh.
So we'll see. And see what happens.
Yeah. Because you could do a search in
Google right now for this show,
It comes up with this this result. Yep.
It's probably hard to read. Know why it's
got. I gotta look at the Fa. I
don't know why it's showing sent on the
new media show.
Must, I didn't switch the fa con over,
but
Yeah. So it... It's linking to the primary
stuff that it needs to.
So...
Right.
And it's linked linking to the Rs feeds
and the podcast. That's the the, you know,
in the n rob,
the
the every show can be found. That's not
an issue,
currently today.
But
the articles, the episodes is where the battle
is being won
is
you know,
just do a search for advertisers versus podcast
and and see
what that re... See what you see in
that result. Do advertisers versus
podcast do that search.
Advertisers versus podcast. Yeah. And just do advertisers
Bs s,
advertisers versus podcast.
Now if it... With any luck, our episode
that we did that I wrote up
Now now see scroll down here. See this
is a Ai
overview.
That's an example of an Ai
overview. Now continue to go down and see
if you find the new media shows episode
on this.
Keep going keep going.
See it's... If it is, it's buried.
See... Yeah.
See
Yeah. So, you know, the
the the challenges is being able to be
found on an episode level.
Right. And,
obviously, we did not win that search result,
and this stupid Ai overview, Now go to
the top again.
Let's see if it comes up at all.
Yeah.
Says Yeah
new media show titled podcast
the battle for control of advertisers versus podcast.
So
So it comes up in the search lab.
And this is Overview. Yeah. So see if
you scroll down, then,
you know, it it it shows up. But,
you know, people are not going to type
the battle for control
advertisers versus podcast.
That, you know, they're gonna search advertisers versus
podcast and hope... And see what they get.
You know. So the the ultimate goal of
any podcast these days is to be have
their episodes
surfaced
in the search results. And then, you know,
that's how we build traffic to...
That's how it.
And that the
Yeah. Because multiple links to it. Yeah. You've
done you've done a very pointed search, but
an average person searching in Google is not
going to do that.
Right. That's true.
So, you know, you might have 2 or
3 words here
that,
Podcast
new media show that came up interesting.
Yeah.
That's there are what, multiple keyword phrases that
come up on that search
where... Yeah. Right?
But if we went back to that original
search,
and you look at advertisers versus podcast, then
then look at the Ai overview,
of that. So delete that. Yeah.
Mh. And then look at the Ai overview
on this,
and read that
Is there any... Is there any
hit the show more? Is there any links
outbound to anybody on this?
Yeah. There there is Spotify and
linkedin and... But again,
you know, that that's where search is gonna
change right there.
You know, are people gonna go any further?
Are they gonna go down and read the
quilt article? Yeah. I I don't think they
will.
Probably not. Yeah. Right? So
immediately,
on the Ai review, you've lost the game
Your business
yes versus radio. What's the difference? Yes. So
a.
Yeah.
So time time will tell how this all
folds out.
Yeah. I agree.
It'll be interesting. What's gonna happen?
Scare you.
Oh, looks like Jody got another question for
you.
Says, do you put up a transcript? Of
course. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. It's embedded in
the Rs speed and my player on my
website is closed caption enabled.
So
with the transcript. So...
Yeah. Of course.
But Google is
you know, here's the problem. That's helping it?
Do you do you think That's helping? No.
It's, Google ignores the transcript.
It's purely in the context of the
of the the summary for the episode is
what they're using right now.
You know, they had said at 1 time.
They were they were making their own transcripts
of every podcast sense but the Google folks
told me when they... You know, they still
had a podcast app.
So I don't know what we'll see.
Yeah I think Apple has said that they...
The transcript for us is purely for accessibility.
Yeah. I I don't think it's being used
at all for for Google.
Is if they're gonna do it if they're
gonna they're gonna generate their own summary.
I think people are gonna
find, you know, and and this gets back
to what
Jody Cra is saying here about. Honestly,
she thinks that people are just gonna stop
using the search engine for... Oh, I'm sure.
And so this is... This could be very
devastating to
It's gonna be blended in with your watch.
Just when we blend in with your phone.
That's kinda what the whole hold So how
how does how does a business
survive?
You know, again,
there they're gonna be more of a king
maker than they have been already.
It's very, very scary.
Yeah. It's gonna be integrated into Siri or
it's gonna be integrated into, you know, Hope
they want... And if you're not wide enough,
this is my contention.
You have to be wide.
You can't be narrow anymore. You have to
be wide. You have to be... Your... And
podcast leads to that because we're distributed everywhere,
and where Spotify has shot themselves a foot
and shutting off. You know, we're seeing them.
Actually, there's been some...
We've been noticing that there has been some
tags set in some spotify feeds
that basically
are using the
the Apple tag to not be listed to
Apple podcast.
So, you know, Spotify is me,
be playing a game here
and trying to limit
distribution of podcast on their platform to spotify
only.
Luckily apple's not recognizing their own tag
and people are not being d listed out
of Apple podcasts because of this flag.
So
ted and company
don't fix that bug.
Yeah. I did hear Elon Musk. Say that
he's gonna be building G into all of
the
Ai
neural net
about
G is self driving cars. G is a
piece of crap right now. So I wouldn't
trust g to be in anything in my
vehicle at this point.
They're gonna maybe future versions of it, but
its version on x right now is is
is absolute horse.
It's trash.
He's got some he's got some makeup things
to do with. Right He's he's, you know,
he's just bought a half a million
Nvidia processor. So
he's gonna start crunch data. What he's gonna
start doing.
But but he's gonna come out of x.
Somebody do you guys think, you know, the
audience is listening here, What do you, you
know, if you stuck around here to the
end,
But again, Jody, as soon as Google gets
their axe to get act together, perplexed... They're
gonna eat per lunch. I think perplexed see
has a very short
shelf life.
It's cool to what it's doing now, but
a year from now
when Google gets caught up.
Well, in open Ai,
Microsoft after everyone's gonna be doing this.
And
and you can't count out Facebook.
No.
They're gonna be doing something here too. Yeah.
I'm sure.
And
and, you know, I think
x x ai is gonna be ramping up
fast. Yeah let's see. Let's see. Again,
it's just a it's...
It's just a full self driving in my
car right now, and it's it's doing a
pretty good job.
Well, it don't fall asleep
and end up underneath the december. Believe or
something Bully me. It won't let you. So
it's
it's watching what you're doing. So... Yeah. Well,
again, or not doing. I I don't know
how you're back survives writing in Tesla. It's
like writing in a jeep.
Right
that's it truly is. It's the worst writing
vehicle Ever been in. If you if you
appreciate luxury, car rides don't not own a
Tesla.
Well, they they've
in the model 3, they did a in
their most recent
upgrade to the car. They have a much
better suspension than the
Well,
it it it couldn't have got receipts could
not have gotten any worse.
I will just say that.
And again, It's got a very low center
gravity tone. I again based upon my
upon my
experience of a Tesla in Phoenix.
I wouldn't own 1 of them.
Sears. Well, that's probably not a great Great
place to own 1II
agree with you. Okay. Well, then where can
you own 1 where it's a moderate temperature
you can't own when where it's cold where
I am and park it outside.
You look park outside. Well, you look at
you look at all the dead cars that
happened in Chicago. That... Again, that's a whole
another show.
Yeah. Well, that's true...
I don't have any trouble with it in
the winters here.
So... Yeah. And Jody is correct. They totally
might but the tool they build will do
something similar. I agree that they able will
do
exactly what complexity is doing.
And search it. But the problem is It's
the logical move. Yeah. But how does Google
survive?
And their revenue comes from advertising on Google
search.
You look at pod bean L and Buzz
pro. Collectively, they're probably spending a hundred and
50000 dollars a month
on Google search ads.
So
if they're used to spending that kind of
money, they're gonna continue to be found,
how are companies that are not spending
50000 dollars a month on Google search ads
going to be found,
and we'll search change so much that people
won't do Sem anymore.
So...
Well, it's it's gonna change the game, Todd.
I mean, you're gonna have to figure out
how you're going to show up and in
queries and then and large range. Wireless queries.
Large language models. Right? Yeah. That's the key.
That's what Google and Microsoft and all these
companies are counting on as being able to
figure that citation model
because then you can integrate links in there.
So So I don't know. I mean, I
think it's interesting to see how they're gonna
handle that. It it could just generate ads
that are relevant to your queries too... Well,
people may never click a link again. They
may just get the information and not click
a link.
That's or not... Yeah. Because there may be
no links to click.
Or you won't need. Yep. But there needs
to be a way to respond to something.
Right? You can't
just look at something. Yeah. I... I'm... That's
fake action on it. Right? What if you
people?
Well, people go to Youtube to find how
to videos. They they go over there and
look look at a how to video.
They learn how to do something. Google's is
gonna give all the information that has been
lifted from websites and give that in a
summary
and guess what? They may not link out
to a website. So guess what?
How do you survive as a business then?
Well, they...
Was it the Instagram platform is been doing
this for a long time. Right?
Making it difficult to have external links. Yeah.
Even x,
they you get, you get less viewership anytime
you link out of x.
Yeah.
Same thing with Facebook. If... You know, Facebook
doesn't you. They they don't want you leaving
their platform.
Mh.
So...
No.
Yeah. We'll see. More subscription models. There you
go.
Well, or or people get fed up, and
there becomes a true competitor to
Google.
Well, think about it. On open, people are
paying for that subscription. Right? Yeah. That's, like,
paying paying for your search sure.
It's it it's the equivalent. That's a research
assistant is what it is right now.
Right. And when we migrate to this
model of smart agents,
where these language models are actually working on
your behalf.
That's where that's where things are gonna shift
again. Oh,
people have no idea what's coming.
Where we're a large... A a language model
or an Ai agent will actually
help you run your life. I I just...
We're working on up.
Basically, it's a... We've already announced it. It's
a clip... It's a highlighter. Basically, you you
basically,
and analyze the transcript, and then you come
out with clips. Like well, basically,
you know, short segments, you know, 60 second
segments of a show that can then be
exported into
a short or real or whatever. Something, you
know, we've been testing that. And having some
challenges,
they get... Mh. To get it right. Well,
1 of the models
updated,
and we switch that particular piece of the
query to another model,
and we basically got our prompts better now.
So the the results
that
it's put outputting
is about 50 percent better, just over 30
days of testing.
So
we've solved our
issue with going to a different model that
has been updated,
and
we'll probably release this in the next couple
of weeks, but it was not in a
state, a month ago where I said, I
I can't put this out.
Because it's just not good enough yet. There
would be... We're gonna cause podcast or frustration.
So our clip creator is now because a
model got better,
and interpreting the type of query we wanted.
So same thing with you'll have specific agents
doing certain things where we and our Ai,
integration, some stuff are using pho, some stuff
we're using ant philanthropic.
Some stuff we're using another service.
So we're...
We basically are using, and we are gonna
have to continue to monitor this continuously
as the models change, and this is where
we build our system is if I wanna
change a query, all I go and do
is my admin and I can go from
Op pho to Facebook to
open Ai. I can switch the model,
that queries being and sent to based upon
the result.
And
it's just gonna be a cat game for
a long time for for us and many
others that are building
tools
at least on for us were the podcast.
So...
Yeah. I believe that this is the direction
that apple's is going on their their iphones
is that they're gonna have this Ai engine
that is basically a a
smart agent that has access to all of
your
personal
information. Well, Apple been doing on your phone.
Apple been doing a lot of Ai stuff
for years. So we'll see what
become... It's been... Yeah. It's kinda of more
machine learning. Yeah. Because I know they've had
a bunch of machine learning Phds over there
for many, many years.
But it's it's...
It really gets back to... It's a privacy
issue. I think is what's gonna happen with
these smart agent technologies because in order to
fully utilize this technology, they're gonna have to
have access
to all of your information. Right? Your calendar,
or... They already did contacts,
No. No, but it's gonna have to be
integrated into these Ai agents that are gonna
be able to analyze it and to produce
recommendations
do you
before you even know what the right recommendations.
Let's say you have a plan that you...
Like you exchange an email with your
with your
with your grandparent or your parent or whatever
that you're gonna take a trip to Seattle
or something like that. It'll pick that up
in your communications, and it will generate a
whole trip for you. Well, based on the
the criteria that you have that you have
built in. And and it's going to pick
winners and losers. And again,
yeah that to be careful here.
Yeah. But it's it's really gonna get into...
I'm starting to see it a little bit
with my
My Tesla being able to predict where I'm
gonna go with my car before. Google If
you've had an
a Google account. Google will tell you
15 minutes to get to work today
before you... No. No. But it it'll it'll
predict where I'm tipping gonna go on a
day of the... It's already doing time. Yeah.
Google has been in the past. Yeah. But
Google's been doing that for years already.
Mh. But yeah that's that's an example what
I'm talking about where it's gonna learn from
your patterns and your behavior it's gonna have
all these sensors are gonna pick up your
activities in your life.
And it will, you know, integrate with apps
or whatever and in... You haven't seen apps.
You haven't seen this you haven't gotten a
notification on your phone that it's
you know, 10 minutes to work or, you
know, Of course. Yeah. No. It's all part
of it. Right? It's all part of it.
But... Yeah. There's... What what I'm trying to
say here is it's gonna be a deeper
integration. Than just that. Right? Yeah. I can
see how that will work, but I can
also see where the Ai is gonna be
much more intelligent about being able to negotiate
contracts and sorts with vendors and providers
It's... They the Google thing. The lady Google
Ai person as she said,
a year ago,
the the thinking
it's gonna be done by Ai. And the
funky is those
mundane task.
And the people that are gonna survive this
are gonna be the creative and the
subject matter experts.
Those are
all those t jobs are gone.
So... Yeah.
In and welcome the
the robots.
Well, the robots are... That's the other part
that's coming. Oh, absolutely.
Have no doubt.
And if I have a robot,
yeah. It's it's all my long. Yeah well,
they've already have... They already have those rob.
That Well, I know they're those little boxes
that run on the ground. I'm talking about
the actual humanoid robot pushing our mo lawn
more you don't need to. They've got ones
that rolling now and know your boundary. That's
true. That's true.
But I have to pay separate for that.
Yeah. Well, I don't have a yard. So...
You're right.
So I've got a half acres so... Yeah.
Well... When I go back to Michigan, I
got you know, 3 acres most. So III
technically don't have a yard, but the family
does that I get... They get rope into
using the 0 point turned to bow.
Got. Alright. Well, I think we're going we're
a little long tonight. We're long.
Morning for me, or morning for you. Right?
Yeah. It's sounds good. And I had a
very
long day yesterday, but so I've only had
a few hours sleep because of the
you know, me working in opposite hours and
being on East coast time while I'm here.
Yeah.
Yeah. Matt, Matt confirms what when I'm saying,
why iphone knows exactly when I'm getting into
my car.
They go got. Go golf thing. Right? Yeah.
Because you probably do it on a regular
basis, so it it it learns. It's patterns
and your activities. It's, you know, the Saturday
morning golfing or the you know, the Friday
afternoon golfing or whatever.
Yeah. Like if I go to Costco on
Saturday. So what whenever I get in my
my car, it it already knows,
pops up in the list of
destinations and I just click the button. Well,
a lot of divorce are happening because,
the
The phones are na on the cheater too.
So
you. There you go. Yeah. Yeah.
Alright. Rob. Privacy is at stake Definitely.
Alright. Everyone. Alright. I hope you found this
entertaining everyone.
Todd at blueberry dot com. Todd at blueberry
dot com at geek news on Twitter. My
phone's ringing here.
And Yeah. And I'm I'm on x as
well.
So here's my
information up here too, So it's just at
Rob Green, and
rob dot green at g dot com. If
you're
listening to this, and then I've also by
a Youtube channel that and then a website
too, you know? And
and I have a
another podcast I do call podcast tips. That's
actually hosted on Todd's platform, and that's gotta
a that's got a website as well. So...
So for those of you that were
complaining about the the audio quality and the
audio editing that rob did on the previous
show,
I I am in control of the audio
recording today. Don't worry. You're... You are. You
are. Yeah. I haven't recorded here, so we
don't end up with the
this
Bev of emails that came in and said
something is wrong with your audio.
So... Well, I think we had some issues
of cross talk, Todd. So I think it
was more of your editing, taking out too
much dead air.
Okay. Well, actually, the editing was done by
des script. So... That that explains it. Yeah.
That explains
I am not a fan of their
automated tools. It just
sounds like Well, they have been improving them.
I have to say here recently.
Well, they have to
the user experience of the app itself is
definitely gotten a little smoother to work with.
Well, I'm gonna stick to my guns and
no editing allowed. So...
Okay. Todd.
Alright. Alrighty everybody. Well, you didn't capture the
the video though I'm gonna have to send
you a video yeah. You'll have to send
the video. So... Okay. Alright. Everybody. Alright. Thanks
you so much for being here. We'll see
you next time.
Alright. Bye.
Good night.