- Welcome to the Natural Health for People in Pets podcast.
A show that aims to empower you with the knowledge
and tools needed to take control of your own health
and wellbeing, as well
as providing health promoting strategies
for the dogs in your life.
The world of health and nutrition can be overwhelming.
So what better way to understand what works
and what doesn't, what's evidence-based
and what's not, then to hear it from someone in the know.
So please welcome your host of the show,
accredited naturopath and nutritionist Narelle Cook.
- Welcome back to Natural Health for People and Pets.
I'm your co-host Glenn Cook,
and introducing the host
of the show. We've got Narelle Cook.
- Hello everyone. Welcome back. Welcome back. Mm.
- So last episode we had your first live guest on.
- Yeah, so we interviewed Brittany Young. Mm-Hmm.
. And that was all about transparency in
particularly the raw food manufacturing business.
So that was fascinating. Had a lot
of good feedback from that interview. So thanks Brittany.
- I agree. Thanks Brittany, for coming along
and sharing some of that 'cause it was a
real eye-opener for me too. Yeah,
- It was fascinating. Mm-Hmm.
- Certainly was. So a couple of things are happening.
You've got some seminars in the future
and you've got one coming up early next year.
- Yeah. So we've planned a nutrition seminar in Canberra.
Mm-Hmm. for next February.
So it's the 20th of Feb. Yep.
It's being hosted by Eleni at all round. Good Hounds.
Mm-Hmm. . So you'll start
to see some advertising on Facebook.
I'll put it out there. Eleni will pop it out there.
So all the details will be on the flyer. Yep.
But that's yet 20th of Feb. It's a Saturday. It's all day.
It's gonna be amazing. So it's great that
after all of this time in lockdown
and not being able to run seminars in 2020 that,
you know, we can get back into it.
- Yeah. It's been quite cruel for a lot of people really,
who had big things planned for this year in particular.
I know we were supposed to be doing a few seminars
that got canceled ourselves.
Couple around Australia
and some talking events in the United States
and so forth, which was really unfortunate
that all that fell apart.
But you know, it's not just us,
it's pretty much the whole world.
It is. Everyone got bitten by the Covid menace
- And I guess we're fortunate
that we can start getting out there again.
There's a lot of people who are still stuck
in lockdown situations.
Mm-Hmm. So feel for them.
- So shout out to our brothers and sisters in Victoria. Mm.
Who have all been hit pretty hard by this.
Some people on the show might not know this person,
but a good friend of ours, Brent Dry, who is uh,
actually a really well-balanced individual
and quite a happy person.
I can see that it's having an effect on people when I start
seeing the cracks in people like Brent.
So, very sad.
- Yeah, it is. That's for sure. Mm.
Um, I should probably just say, so the seminar,
it's a canine nutrition seminar and it's a full day
and I'll be talking about like the fundamentals of nutrition
as it relates to our dogs.
The role of nutrition in canine behavior, how
to understand commercial pet food labels.
Mm-Hmm. , the ins
and outs of raw food feeding and allergies.
Allergies is always a popular topic.
So we'll be touching on that as well.
- Terrific. Now that we've got all the biz out of the way,
what do you got for us today?
- Today's topic was actually a request by one
of my listeners of the show, Lauren Turner.
Mm-Hmm. . So she's a trainer in the States.
Yep. Hey Lauren. Hey Lauren.
So she wanted to know more about fasting. Interesting
- Topic.
Alright. Considering that it's something
that's been mentioned in most ancient scripts throughout the
dawn of time and something heavily practiced in populations
all over the world, again since Adam was a boy.
However, now in days of consumerism,
it's more about buy everything. Eat everything.
- Yeah. So we have sort of gone off track in terms of
evolutionary approaches to eating,
which we'll talk about today as we go through.
Yeah. So today it's about fasting as it relates
to people and pets.
Yep. With a focus on dogs. Mm-Hmm.
to start with.
- Um, so this is a people and pets one.
- It's people and pets. Ah.
Whenever I can, I'm gonna try
and cover both within a show there'll be shows
where it says one or the other, but today fasting comes up
often on dog food forums.
Yep. It can be quite heated.
That's one of the reasons I wanna talk about it. Yep.
Today for the dog side of it too. Yeah.
- Interesting. - Just to give an overview, so to start
with, a lot of fasting terms are used interchangeably online
and that's fine when it comes to fasting,
but I thought I'd just quickly highlight the main types
of fasting that people might see out
there and try themselves.
Mm-Hmm. . So the first one is what's called
time restricted fastings.
This is really popular at the moment
with a lot of my clients as well.
And this is where you eat within like
a specific window of time.
So the main one out there is what's called the
16 eight mm-Hmm.
time restricted fasting process.
So that's where you will eat within an eight hour window
and fast for 16 hours.
So a lot of people, because of our lifestyles
and our work will skew that eating window
to the second half of the day.
So they might eat between 12:00 PM and 8:00 PM
or you know, 11:00 AM 7:00 PM whatever works for them.
Mm-Hmm. other people, you know,
there's a 1410, there's a 1212.
So there's no hard and fast rules,
but the science shows that the main benefits of fast intend
to kick in at around that 15 to 16 hour mark.
Mm-Hmm. . But you can still get benefits
and as we go through the show, you know,
I'll talk about the benefits that you can get from doing
sort of bigger windows of eating as well.
- It's a difficult thing about being an adult, isn't it?
Is that you can eat whenever you want in relation to people.
So you can eat whenever you want.
There's no hand break or mentoring
or governance on when you can eat.
Like as when you're a child,
your parents sort of say to you, that's enough.
You can't eat anymore. But when you're a grown up,
you can just say, I can eat whenever I want.
. That's a problem that I have is that I just go,
I'm allowed to eat whenever I want
and I just go to the cupboard and
get whatever I want out of it.
- Yeah. I often think our dogs are lucky in that, you know,
we regulate what they eat
and when they eat often I think, oh,
I wish someone would just tell me like stop eating. Um,
- Yeah.
No food police is gonna tell me when I
can and can't eat. Yeah.
- On the time restricted fasting though,
like it's really interesting, studies have shown
that in terms of the cardiometabolic benefits Mm-Hmm.
. So they're things like insulin resistance
type two diabetes, hypertension,
or I should say cardiometabolic diseases.
Mm-Hmm. skewing that eating window
to the morning rather than the evening,
which is what most people will do.
Mm-Hmm. is actually more beneficial
for reducing those conditions.
But what's fascinating,
because a lot of people do fasting for weight loss,
but there's, you know, we're gonna talk about the additional
benefits beyond weight loss in the show today,
but by skewing the eating window to the morning,
they've found that that's helpful
because they've discovered
that nearly every gene in our body is affected
by circadian rhythms.
Right. So, you know, that's our natural diurnal process in
the body, our sleep weight cycle.
Mm-Hmm. and they've discovered that, so
for example, melatonin, which is our sleepy hormone Mm-Hmm.
it gets released at night. Yep.
And it goes all through the body,
but the cells in our body have what's called
melatonin receptors.
Mm-Hmm. , our cells have lots
of different types of receptors.
Melatonin receptors is just one of them.
So as melatonin, the hormone goes
through the blood comes across a cell, sees the receptor
binds to it, and that's what triggers the positive effect.
Yep. What they've found is that even the pancreas
has like quite a large number of these receptors
for melatonin on their cells
and that stimulation
of melatonin receptors on the pancreas actually
suppresses insulin release.
Now if that all sounds a bit convoluted,
when we eat our bodies release
insulin, it's just what it does.
Yep. And the more carby and processed
and sugary the food, the more insulin your body releases.
Mm-Hmm. . So if you think about it from an
evolutionary perspective, you know, in the back,
in the hunter gatherer day, they're gonna be hunting,
gathering in feasting mainly during daylight hours.
Yep. So, and that's when the pancreas is primed to sort
of respond to that food intake by releasing insulin.
Mm-Hmm. . But they're showing now
that at night when we're supposed to be sleeping
and melatonin is being produced, it actually suppresses
that pancreas response, which may sort of indicate
that eating late at night, particularly eating a lot
of carb rich foods late at night Mm-Hmm.
may not be in their best interest. Right.
I don't know, I just find that fascinating.
- It is fascinating. Yeah, absolutely.
I guess it makes sense though because if you look at the
body's preparation during the nocturnal cycle to wind down
and in the morning your body is,
it's basically preparing the engine to start moving
and um, getting around it makes sense
that it's converting energy at a much more rapid rate in the
morning and then in the evening it's trying
to slow itself down and then you are trying
to force more food in there
and which it goes into,
I guess it goes into storage mode. Right.
- I mean there's a lot of conflicting studies
on weight gain, for example.
Mm-Hmm. Whether people eat
late at night or don't late at night.
But I don't think it's the best time
to be eating large amounts of food.
But that's another podcast probably it. It
- Probably is.
- Yeah. So that's the time restricted fasting.
Then you've got the intermittent fasting, which, you know,
the most commonly done approach is the,
say the five two diet where you're eating normally
for five days a week and on two days you're restricting your
calories quite severely to say five or 600 calories.
There's whole day fasting
where someone might eat dinner one day
and then not eat again until dinner the next day.
Mm-Hmm. , I've got a couple of clients that do
that and we, I keep having this conversation with them
because most people aren't eating a nutritionally
replete diet to start with.
Yep. And so if you think about it,
if you're just eating one meal a day,
chances are you're not getting everything you need.
Mm-Hmm. in that one meal.
So unless you're really strategic in planning your meals
across a week, I think it's a recipe for disaster
for nutritional deficiencies, just having one meal a day.
Yep. And then trying to get enough calories in too,
because let's say you eat a day's worth
of calories in one meal, that's a huge burden
to your digestive system,
which again has negative health consequences too.
So pros and cons to everything.
So nothing straightforward in the health world.
- Well, extremities on both ends are still
extremities. Yeah.
- And the other thing with any of these fasting approaches,
they've been shown to be effective for weight loss.
There's no doubt about that.
But they're not significantly more effective than say just
reducing calorie intake generally.
Mm-Hmm. . And the risk with fasting is
that it's been shown to increase what's
called neurop Pepto wise.
So it's one of our most potent appetite regulating hormones.
Mm-Hmm. . So fasting does stimulate that,
which means you, you're more likely
to feel hungry when you're fasting again.
I've got clients who swear that they're not hungry.
Depends on the person. Yep.
- Funny about that, isn't it?
That genetics play a part in
how different people react differently? Yeah,
- It's huge.
Just like we always say, you know, it depends on the dog
when it comes to training.
Mm-Hmm. when health,
it really does depend on the person.
So these are quite broad discussions
that we're having today.
Yep. If people hear something that sort
of triggers their interest, there's, you know, there's
so much information online
and studies that they can sort
of delve into a bit more deeply if they want to.
Mm-Hmm. . So beyond weight loss, some
of the other key benefits of fasting
and I should say the benefits
that we are gonna touch on today, they're just
as applicable to our dogs.
So, um, I'll go through these,
but just think, you know, this is helping our dogs as well
because even though dogs physiologically
and biochemically are different, they're not
so different to us.
Mm-Hmm. . And you know, a lot
of studies will say that like animal models,
particularly dog models are good predictors
of human models when it comes to clinical trials.
Right. So like we said, beyond weight loss,
you've got improved insulin sensitivity
and which can help to reverse type two diabetes.
And that's actually really important
because a lot of people may not even know
that they've got any degree of insulin resistance.
And if it's left unchecked, you know, that's where they go
to the doctor and suddenly they've got type two diabetes.
Mm-Hmm. , which is completely reversible
with diet and lifestyle.
But some of the signs and symptoms of insulin resistance,
you know, fatigue, extra weight gain, particularly
around the middle, if you suddenly get patches
of dark skin skin tags, you know, acne for women
with polycystic ovarian syndrome, you know,
they'll be all over the insulin resistance problem.
Fatty liver, really intense cravings like
that real hangry Mm-Hmm.
sort of effect. If you don't eat
for women it could be hair loss, fluid retention,
just trouble concentrating.
So all of those signs and symptoms are quite vague
and could be caused by a lot of different things.
But insulin resistance is one of them. Right.
Even if you don't care about any of that, again, coming back
to weight loss, insulin is our fat storage hormone.
So while insulin is up all the time,
you are not gonna be losing fat.
Mm-Hmm. . And that's what happens.
Like I said, when we eat triggers insulin,
so if you are eating grazing all day,
you've constantly got this elevated insulin level,
which means you're really never going to,
you're really never gonna get into that fat burning mode.
Mm-Hmm. I have to say though, despite knowing all the ins
and outs of the benefits of fasting,
I just can't do it. So,
- Yeah.
Well I'm not really a model of good eating choices
or anything either, if I have to be, but you
- Naturally tend to be okay with not eating
for hours and hours at a time.
Like you can go to a lunchtime and go, oh yeah,
- Something.
Yeah, that's not the problem. I can miss meals
during the day and I think my main issue is I
eat late into the night.
Mm-Hmm. And you know, I'm a self-confessed stress eater,
so if I'm occupied
and busy, I feel like I've gotta be
eating something at the same time.
So the more stressed I feel, the more cravings
that I actually incur
to actually wanna go and eat something.
Yeah. So it's a vicious cycle.
It's a negative feedback loop
that I just seem not to be able to kick.
- Yeah. I mean, emotional eating's huge
for I'd say the majority of people.
Hmm. But moving back on to some of the benefits.
So one of the key benefits is
that fasting promotes autophagy, which always makes me laugh
that word because whenever I read it
my mind goes, what's the word?
Autophagy. Okay.
But when you read it, it's spelled like autophagy. Okay.
It's pronounced autophagy. Mm-Hmm. .
But so our body is constantly generating new cells
and killing off old ones.
Mm-Hmm. But this is also happening within the cell.
So all the little structures
and organelles within the cell are breaking down
and forming new ones.
So autophagy is just that natural sort
of cellular housekeeping process.
Mm-Hmm. . So the body's cleaning out like all
the debris outta the cell
so you can get all the pretty much the crap out
and get the good stuff and the nutrients in.
And this is great for improving mitochondrial function
'cause you gotta think, you know, we can only feel as good
as our cells are healthy.
Yeah. Like they're the base unit of who we are.
And if your mitochondrial health is suffering,
then yeah, you will be fatigued.
Mm-Hmm. You will feel just blah. So that's important.
And the other thing about autophagy is it increases
macrophage activity.
So macrophages are a type of white blood cell
and so they go around the body
and they destroy bacteria, viruses
and just anything that shouldn't be there,
like dead tissue worn out cells.
And the way I like to think about macrophages
whenever I'm reading the literature is
remember back in the day like
who had a Commodore 64 computer me and used to play Pac-Man.
Yep. So that's a macrophage.
So whenever you read macrophage, just pitch a Pac-Man.
Mm-Hmm. going around with his mouth open,
just like swallowing up all the crap in our
bodies and all the nasties. So that's
- A horrible thought ,
- But it makes it interesting. It
- Does. Yeah.
- Like if you're gonna be in a scientific field,
I think it's really like I find it really beneficial to sort
of have all these little analogies of Yeah. What
- Things are, yeah.
It's important especially when um, you're trying
to make it relatable to an audience.
Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Funny enough.
- Um, but this is so important that it was only in 2016
that a Japanese scientist won the Nobel Prize in medicine
for discovering that autophagy is switched on
by a nutrient deprivation.
That was a pretty major thing.
And that's where the benefits of fasting have sort
of grown a lot since then.
Fasting's great for reducing any
of those cardiovascular disease risk factors.
Things like, you know, high cholesterol, triglycerides,
blood pressure, it can reduce inflammation,
it can improve mental clarity.
Mm-Hmm. and reduce the risk
of neurodegenerative disorders.
And the way it does this,
and I've spoken about this with dogs
or I've written about it anyway, is
that fasting increases what's called
brain-derived neurotrophic factor.
So it promotes new neurons. Mm-Hmm.
and protects against like
neuronal degeneration.
So that's really important I think I've written about in
terms of phytonutrients for dogs.
Mm-Hmm. helps to promote BDNF for dogs.
- Where did you write this? That
- Was in the IACP journal.
- Ah, yes. - Yeah. Last season.
- Good reason to be a member of the IACP.
- Absolutely. Mm. Fasting
increases growth hormone production.
So that's central to lots of aspects of health.
You know, our metabolism. Weight loss, again,
increased muscle mass, increased bone strength.
Mm-Hmm. fasting can help
with cancer prevention
and increase the effectiveness of chemotherapy.
Mm-Hmm. can slow aging, increase longevity.
There's lots of studies about calorie restriction
and fasting for anti-aging aspects.
Yep. But one of the main ones that I love
and I think is really relevant to us
and our dogs is that it promotes detoxification.
So, you know, when we are eating
and digesting, that's like a real energy burden
to the body to digest food.
So the more you eat sort of the bigger the burden.
But when we fast, you know, all that energy can be put
to use elsewhere in the body.
So it can help with, you know, cellular repair
and detoxification and regeneration and things like that.
And if you think about it on a daily basis, just
how many toxins we're exposed to it.
You know, chemicals in the food we eat in the air,
we breathe in the water, you know, there's just so much
that we are bombarded with.
And if you think about our dogs, you know, flea treatments,
tick treatments, worming treatments,
- Vaccinations, - Vaccinations, poor quality food
and all the nasty chemicals and additives
and preservatives that are in that for our dogs.
Mm-Hmm. And you gotta think too,
our dogs are at ground level, so a lot of,
or even mold, you know Yep.
Mold toxicity. Mm-Hmm.
Dogs raining through grass and just over carpets
and you know, so they're getting exposure a lot.
So everything that goes into the body has
to be processed by the liver.
So all of these toxins
that are coming in are being processed by the liver,
but if there's a lot of them,
the liver can become overburdened.
Mm. But the body in all its amazing sort
of design has a strategy.
So if the, the liver does become overburdened
through poor diet and all the environmental sort
of onslaught of toxins, it actually sequesters
or it sort of hides away all
of the nasties in our fat cells.
Right. So fats and inert tissue. Mm-Hmm. .
So muscles, metabolically active fats inert, it just sort
of sits there and does not much, I mean,
does some stuff but not much.
So it's a really safe place to put these substances
that are potentially a threat to life.
Right. By view of the body.
So what happens when you start burning fat? Yeah.
So that's the thing. So once we fast sort of
beyond 12 hours, we deplete our glycogen store.
Mm-Hmm. . So that's the
storage form of glucose.
So the body has to start looking for another source
of energy and that's when it will start
to break down fat for energy.
Yep. Which is why fasting's great for weight loss.
So those toxins start
to get released back into the bloodstream
and you know, to be processed by the liver, which is fine
because that can reduce the body's overall toxic burden.
Mm-Hmm. . But sort of something you need
to be cautious of here.
And for a healthy body, that process is fine to do. Yeah.
Okay. That's good. It's a reason why I'm massive on liver
support, particularly for weight loss.
I know you're always on your about
liver support, liver, liver, liver.
But the reason is it's most obvious when quite overweight
people or obese people go on like a crazy strict, rapid sort
of weight loss program.
Mm-Hmm. And so they break down like a heap
of fat really quickly.
And so you get this, this massive wave
of toxin release into the blood Mm-Hmm.
at a rate that is too much for the liver
to sort of process and handle.
Yep. And then, so within that first month,
I'll often get clients or people come to me
and they're like, oh, I should feel good
because I'm losing a lot of weight.
So it's like psychologically they're like, oh yeah, I'm,
you know, I've lost weight, but they skin's breaking out.
Yep. They're getting headaches and migraines. Ah.
That's the reason why they're fatigued
and they just feel blah
and it's sort of like a wall they hit at a certain point.
Yeah, that makes sense. So
that's why I generally tell people just take it slow.
It takes so long generally for the weight to come on,
just take your time, lose the weight slowly,
it's your body's gonna handle the
whole process a lot better.
Yeah. So that's interesting.
That's something to keep in mind. It is.
So who shouldn't fast? That's really important.
It's not for everyone. Mm-Hmm. .
So just because we are talking about the benefits today,
this is just putting information out there
doesn't mean you have to do it.
Mm-Hmm. for yourself or your dog.
Some of these are obvious, like pregnant breastfeeding women
shouldn't fast children shouldn't fast anyone with a history
of disordered eating because fasting can actually
trigger binging Yep.
In people or they can go the other way
and become even more obsessive
and restrictive with their food intake.
Mm-Hmm. people who are prone to gallstones.
So again, I find this really fascinating.
You know, when we fast,
it decreases the activity of the gallbladder.
So people may not know our liver produces bile. Mm-Hmm.
and bile gets stored in the gallbladder,
which is just like a sack, a sack of fluid.
Yep. Sack of bile and other stuff. But we'll just say bile.
And every time we eat particularly food
with fat Mm-Hmm that triggers the gallbladder
to release a little bit of bowel into the system
to help break down the fat and excrete it from the body.
Right. Again, if someone goes on a fad rapid sort
of extreme low fat diet Yep.
You know, suddenly their gallbladder's got nothing to do.
Like it doesn't have to release bile very often
because they're like completely
cut all fat outta their diet.
Mm-Hmm. . So it sits there
and then it just, the bile in the gallbladder sort
of thickens and gets sludgy
and then the cholesterol in the bile concentrates
and then they end up with gallstones.
Right. So they get to the end of their fad,
extreme low fat diet
and then they binge on, you know,
they've lost all their weight and they're like, oh,
I deserve a binge meal.
So they binge on really fatty foods
and then they're in hospital
with gallbladder attack from gallstones.
Right. So it's not that it's gonna happen that way,
but people who do extreme low fat diets are much more prone
to gallstones because of that mechanism of action. Well
- There you go.
I just learned something myself
because I always wondered where
and how gallstones, uh,
produced in the body. And now I know
- That's just one way.
There are other ways that gallstones can be produced.
Mm-Hmm. . But that's sort of one
that's most relevant to people with diet, right.
Uh, dietary aspects. And so fasting does that too.
If you fast, you know, through really extended periods
of time, the 16 eight windows of fasting
I doubt are gonna have a problem
unless you're already predisposed to gallstones.
Mm. So I guess that's my point.
If you're prone to them, just be careful for
how long you do fast for.
Mm-Hmm. , people who are already malnourished
or underweight don't recommend it.
And people who are doing like really high intensity interval
training, if they're really restricting their window
of eating, they may just not be getting enough calories
and nutrients in to support what their body needs.
Mm-Hmm. for muscle growth
and overall health, you know, diabetics
or anyone with preexisting conditions.
Like it's not that they can't do it,
but do it under the care of your gp
or if your dog's got preexisting health conditions under the
care of your vet and just go slower.
Yep. Like I said, instead of doing 16 eight,
you might start with 12. 12. Yep.
- You're a huge advocate
for blood testing as well, aren't you?
- I am. And so for a lot of reasons,
but in relation to fasting,
so if someone had blood glucose irregularities
or diabetes, you know,
you would wanna be monitoring your blood
glucose levels regularly Yep.
To ensure safety. You don't wanna go into like a
hypoglycemic state.
Mm-Hmm. , there's lots
of other chronic conditions that probably shouldn't fast.
But again, talk
to your doctor if you think that might relate to you.
Mm-Hmm. , what I found fascinating reading up
lately about fasting is a lot
of the benefits have been shown for men, but not for women.
Right. And I find that, again, all these little bits
of information I just find fascinating.
So there was a study that looked at alternate day fasting
and after three weeks there was an unfavorable effect in
women on blood glucose.
So their blood glucose levels went up. Mm-Hmm.
. And they didn't get an improvement in their
insulin sensitivity, which was completely the opposite
to the men in the study over that three week period.
And in another study they did a two day fast
and in women it shifted them into a sympathetic dominant
state for their nervous system.
So that's our flight or fight response. Mm-Hmm.
. And in men, it shifted them like a two day
fast shifted to them into a parasympathetic dominant state,
which is our rest or digest state
and where we should be most of the time.
But with the lifestyles that we lead, most
of us are too often in that sort
of sympathetic dominant state.
Mm-Hmm. sort of that wired just always on,
just always running on adrenaline.
So we don't wanna be that, but fascinating
that fasting would push meaning in one direction
and women in the other.
And the fact that women's bodies are much more sensitive
to metabolic distress
and any sort of perceived state of starvation, it sort
of makes sense because, you know, from a reproductive sense,
because why would a female body wanna reproduce if it feels
like its survival is being threatened
by calorie restriction?
Wow. It makes sense.
So women with extreme fasting can affect ovulation,
their menstruation, their fertility, their sleep,
and their mood a lot more than, well men don't have a lot
of those things, you know, so it does have a,
a much bigger impact on women.
Mm-Hmm. . So some studies actually say women
probably shouldn't fast for more than 14 hours a day,
but again, depends on the woman in question.
Yep. And if you, you know, if you are thinking
of studying fasting, you might just do every
second day or every third day.
So just something a bit more gentle to sort of see
how your body responds to it.
Mm-Hmm. one of the other sort of types
of people that probably wouldn't do well on fasting,
if you are really stressed, if your life is just chaotic
and you are running on adrenaline, fasting can sort
of be like throwing fuel on the fire
because it is a perceived state of stress to the body.
Like not getting any food
which can increase cortisol levels,
which is our stress hormone.
Mm-Hmm. So just something else to be mindful of
- That makes sense. It
- Does.
Mm-Hmm. Okay. So let's talk about dogs. Right.
On the forums, like people get so passionate
and so heated about fasting dogs because a
- Lot of anything really Well - Yeah.
Anything. Yeah. But you know, because they see it
as sort of cruel.
But you've gotta remember therapeutic
fasting, it's not starvation.
So your dog is still getting all the nutrients they need
to support all their vital tissues
and organs and muscle mass.
On the other days of the week,
water should always be available.
Yep. Whether it's us or our dogs, you know,
you should always be well hydrated.
That's just a given.
So fasting does not mean in this context
water restriction. Hmm.
- It's an interesting topic, this the emotional content
behind fasting and,
and the state of affair of
how a dog should be and how it should look.
Because ever since I've got into the industry,
which has been for about 30 years now, more so now
an obese dog is an indicator of love.
Personally, I feel that it's another form of abuse.
- Oh, absolutely. And that's the thing,
I think the percentage of overweight
and obese dogs is matching the human population.
As our lifestyle and diet deteriorates,
we automatically sort of put that onto our dogs as well.
And yeah, it's people's perception of their dog.
It's the same with people. Like overweight is the new norm.
Mm-Hmm. So if you are a normal low body fat percentage,
people will often accuse you of being too skinny
or you know, oh, your dog's too skinny
when actually they're quite healthy.
- Well, interestingly enough, when human intervention isn't
around, like in the wild or street dogs
or anything like that, in any country, usually see
that the dogs are quite lean and muscular.
Mm-Hmm. Where there's been no human intervention.
But as, as soon as you domesticate the dog, not always,
because there are a lot of people that I know who, you know,
especially with sporting type of dogs as well,
they're quite disciplined about how the dogs look and react.
And they're more interested in raising an
athlete than a couch potato.
And I'm not trying to offend anyone, you know, like,
I mean I know that some people do things
until they learn to do it better.
That's the old Mayo angel. Yeah. I think her name is.
It's do the best you can until you know better.
And when you know better do better.
- Yeah. And the thing is too, a lot
of dogs aren't really high carb sort of kibble diets.
Mm-Hmm. Which trigger like hyperglycemia,
which is like high blood glucose, which you know,
triggers insulin release.
Mm-Hmm. But that hypoglycemic state can, in terms of health,
can lead to impaired wound healing, neuronal degeneration,
increased production of inflammatory cytokines.
So inflammatory molecules in the body
and for sick dogs
who are hospitalized hyperglycemia can lead
to poorer clinical outcomes.
You know, which is what you don't, you don't want
that if you dog's already struggling with something.
Something else that I only, unfortunately only
discovered recently in the last month is,
and it's a rat study, but we can, it's relevant.
Yeah. It's still relevant to consider, it's still food
for thought is that studies have shown
that fasting can promote recovery after spinal cord injury.
Oh yeah. So I read that, I'm like, oh ladybug, I was
so focused on getting the nutrition into her, like
for her body to heal and repair that.
It never occurred to me that fasting
to some extent might actually be beneficial as well.
So I've sort of missed the boat on that for her. Mm-Hmm.
. But something to keep in mind,
studies have also shown
that general calorie restriction in dogs
can extend lifespan.
Mm-Hmm. . So they looked at 48 Labrador
retrievers and by restricting their food intake by 25%,
they lived on average about two years longer.
So the on average 13 years versus 11 years.
So I mean getting a couple of extra years out of, you know,
your dog's time.
Mm-Hmm. , I think that's significant.
So better to Yeah. Slightly underfeed your dog than overfeed
your dog and have a fat dog
that you think you love more because it's fat.
Mm-Hmm. And I know Glen, you are familiar with this story,
but I wanna share it with our listeners
and that's about Oscar Mm-Hmm.
- So I've heard Rodney Habib talk about this before.
- So the reason I wanna share the story about Oscar is just
to help pet parents understand that if you,
and we're gonna talk about fasting strategies
for dogs in a sec, but having your dog miss a meal
- Is not the end of the world. It
- Is not harmful at all.
Yeah. And to give you an extreme example,
back in the day when they could do studies
that would no longer have any chance of passing,
like the ethics committee, they looked at
how long this dog could live for
or could go on for without eating.
So it was done in 1912
and I actually have the full paper from 1912,
so it's interesting read.
So Oscar was a scotch colie and they gave Oscar just water.
And during this time they measured creatine kinase
and blood uan nitrogen.
So they're markers of muscle breakdown. Mm-Hmm.
. So, you know, when he goes into starvation
mode, those markers would increase
and then they'd know to stop the experiment
because of the damage to his body.
Right. So the first time they did the experiment with Oscar,
they stopped it after 45 days.
Mm-Hmm. . And then they sent Oscar home
to his farm and then a year later they brought him back
and they expected a similar sort of timeframe, like that 30
to 45 day mark until his body started to break down.
- And it's just water. Right? Just
- Water.
Yep. So that's all they're giving him.
- Was there any nutrient in the water or was it,
- I don't think so.
I'd have to go back and look at the study,
but we'll just say water for today's conversation.
Yep. But the second time round, they went past that 45 days
and the urea didn't even start to rise until day 103.
So Oscar hasn't eaten any food for 103 days
and even sort of at a hundred plus days,
he could still like jump over a three foot fence
to get into his kennel.
So his body had actually really adapted to
that state of starvation.
And I mean that could easily go into a whole conversation
about ketogenic diets for dogs and things like that.
Mm-Hmm. So that's amazing.
And I think it was after 117 days they
stopped the experiment.
Oscar survived and recovered and was great,
but he did, I mean this is extreme.
He went from 26.3 kilos to 9.7 kilos. Mm-Hmm. .
So that's a lot of weight loss. That's
- A lot of weight loss.
- But again, the whole point of that little story is if your
dog doesn't eat for a day, it's fine.
- That's just crazy, isn't it?
The first time I heard that, I just thought,
how could you even think about doing
something like that as a study?
And you're right, it is cruel.
Well it's horrible to be honest. Yeah.
And as you pointed out
before, as far as ethics would go in this day
and age, there was no way in any way, shape or form
unless it was illegally done.
Mm-Hmm. That you would even consider doing things like that.
But to be honest, there's a lot of
animals in particular their own personal suffering
that we've gained a lot of medical
and scientific knowledge through.
So you know, their sacrifice should never be in vain.
- That's right. Although, having said all that, it's funny
because ladybug was a bit off on the weekend.
Yeah. And um, so I'm like, ah,
so I didn't give her dinner Sunday night
and in my mind she had breakfast that morning,
but I just didn't give her dinner.
But even like me, I'm like, oh my poor baby. Yeah.
She hasn't had dinner, so I understand,
you know, the emotional aspects,
- But she didn't want it either.
- Yeah. She was really off. We don't know why
- She just had a bad day, - Bad day.
Mm-Hmm. So like people,
there are certain dogs that shouldn't fast.
Really, it's only for healthy adult dogs.
Puppies should never be fasted.
I mean, they might self fast and not eat for a meal or two
or a day or two mm-Hmm.
, which is fine. But if it goes
for more than a couple of days, definitely go to your vet.
- Especially there's vomiting and diarrhea involved. Oh,
- Absolutely.
And particularly small breed puppies
because they've got such fast metabolisms,
they're really prone to hypo.
So hypoglycemia, so low blood glucose. Mm-Hmm.
, which can be fatal pretty quickly.
Older dogs probably shouldn't fast
pregnant lactating bitches obviously, you know,
they've got really increased energy requirements.
Mm-Hmm. dogs on any kind of medication
because whether you take a drug with food
or without food can have a big impact on the
pharmacokinetics of that drug.
So the way it's absorbed and metabolized and excreted.
So it can change, you know, whether your dog gets too much
or too little of a drug. Mm.
- It's good to know. And - Like everything we have to,
to monitor our dogs and be prepared to stop
or change what we're doing based on
what we're seeing in our dogs.
So some dogs might become more temperamental,
it might trigger some behavioral
issues that you don't wanna see.
Some dogs, it might trigger loose
stools, it might trigger vomiting.
You just don't know. So don't just do something
because someone else is doing it without paying
attention to how it's impacting.
- I guess what you're saying is consider speaking
with a canine health professional
or even human health professional
before you just leap into it and have a crack at it.
- Yeah. Again, if you are a healthy, robust person
and your dog's a healthy, robust
dog, you know, give it a go.
Yeah. But if there's anything else going on,
you do need to be careful, but
- Research at first.
Right. Like look into the tactics of how to do it. Right.
- Yes. Again, there's no rules.
Like there's no right or wrong way to do this.
Like the old school approach was one day a week. Yep.
That's sort of what we grew up with.
You know, you just don't feed your dogs one day a week.
Mm-Hmm. . But if you are feeding your dogs
twice a day, for example,
you might just start by once a month.
Mm. Taking away one meal a day.
I mean, that's nothing, but it's the start. Mm-Hmm.
, it's a start that makes you feel good about
it and you know, your dog's not gonna notice much
and then you might either increase that
to once a week ultimately,
or you might start to take away both meals.
Or if you're feeding your dog once a day, you know,
you might take away that one meal once a month.
Yep. And then sort of increase the frequency, do
what works for you and your dog.
Mm-Hmm. But like I said, you still need
to ensure your dog's getting all the
nutrients and the energy.
So you might slightly increase the food intake on the other
days if you're fasting like a full one day a week.
Yep. You'd probably wanna
feed a little bit more on the other days.
Mm-Hmm. to make sure
your dog doesn't lose condition. Yep.
- So interesting. As we've said
before, you know, at the start of the show,
like this has been proven throughout the history
of human beings that most texts from old days indicate
that fasting has been a part of their rituals. Mm.
- Yeah. So many cultures and religions Yep.
Incorporate fasting
- Absolutely.
All over the globe. Yeah.
- And some dogs, you know, will naturally,
- I wonder where they learn that from without the access
to science and the interweb like we've got now
- .
I know we rely so heavily on it.
- Yeah. Old day scholars, they must have known something.
- Yeah. I think they were wise. Mm-Hmm.
just absolutely blows my mind
what people back then could come up
with without the technology
and the resources that we have access to. Yeah. Today
- And fundamentally we've somehow gained
that knowledge throughout the eons of ages
as well. Yeah. Yeah.
- Back to dogs. Mm-Hmm. You know,
some people panic if their dog doesn't wanna eat.
Yep. Don't force your dog to eat.
Like if your dog doesn't want breakfast one day,
like don't force it to eat breakfast.
Like it's telling you eat, you know,
it's body's probably telling it it doesn't want food right
now, so that's fine.
You know, let things like that go, as we've discussed,
there are lots of amazing health benefits too, fasting
for both us and our dogs.
Mm-Hmm. . But you know, there's no right
or wrong way to go about it.
So just, you know, if you're gonna look into it,
just start slow, start small
and sort of, you know, build it up from there.
Yep. But again, every,
I feel like every podcast they come back to,
everyone wants like a fad.
I feel like, you know, they just wanna do the latest
dietary restriction. Yeah.
- That's marketing. - Yeah.
But before you stress your body out
with suddenly restricting,
like let's say you're eating five meals a day,
you're just grazing, you know, three meals, couple
of snacks, and suddenly you go,
well I'm only gonna eat within like a six
to eight hour window now on, I mean,
that's a huge shock to the system.
Mm-Hmm. . But rather than do that,
I always say like, start with the basics.
If your diet isn't optimal, start by cleaning up your diet.
Yep. Like eat six times a day,
but make better choices in those meals.
Approaching it that way is gonna have a much bigger impact
long-term on our health.
And when it comes to our dogs, it's the same thing.
So rather than, you know,
you may not go into fasting straightaway with your dog,
you might just look at their diet and try
and have a better quality diet
for them in the the first instance.
Okay. I think that's a much better approach.
So don't freak out, you don't have to fast,
but do look at your diet and your dog's diet
and see where you can make improvements.
Mm-Hmm. , because that's gonna have a much
bigger difference to your health.
- I guess that's a good place to leave it. Mm.
If people need to find you for more information on fasting,
- If you wanna get in contact with me,
you can email me at hello at natural health
and nutrition.com au.
Mm-Hmm. , you can jump onto my
business Facebook page,
which is Natural Health and Nutrition. Yep.
- Which occasionally put the odd article
up on health and nutrition.
- Yeah. I tend to put more human articles on that page.
And then there's my Natural Health for People
and Pets Facebook page to support this podcast.
So any questions in relation to fasting
or anything else you wanna know?
Yep. Go to the Natural Health for People
and Pets Facebook page
and then we can have a conversation there. Terrific.
- Okay, well let's leave it there. Goodbye everyone.
- Bye.