Not since 19 81
with the attempt and the life. Of Ronald
Reagan have we seen a president or
former president, so close to being killed by
an assassin
Saturday's attempt on the life of Donald Trump
was shocking. It was horrifying, and it's rightly
been condemned
across the political spectrum in America. We don't
yet know
the motive of the shooter, but it is
easy for many people to wonder if this
is just 1 more like contribution to the
rising level of political violence in America not
seen really since the 19 sixties.
What has brought us to this point politically
and culturally? Is there anything that can get
us out? Well, welcome to new ideal live,
the podcast of the I'm Institute?
My name is Ben Bai with me are
my colleagues, elon Gi, On car.
We are going to talk about some of
those questions today, and this is a big.
Topic that has
engulfed
the discourse of the nation for the last
few days, So especially because it's a
big and important topic will likely go longer
than we usually do today, and we will
plan to take
more questions than we usually do. So if
you have them, please
feel free to send them in using the
super chat feature,
or just the regular chat feature in,
Youtube, especially if you're watching on, Youtube.
So,
On encore, Elon.
I think it should go without saying
that
political assassination in a free country is an
abomination that
should be condemned should be prevented,
maybe most people
realize that's obvious, but just in case, they
don't,
what can we say to explain
why this is so important to do.
Concur?
Yeah. You can look at it in
2 ways. So you can look at it
broadly
as an issue of the rule of law,
but putting that more simply, it's no
individual citizen has the right to take the
law into their own hands, the that that
I don't like a person, and it and
it doesn't matter this is why it's an
assassination. If it's for political reasons if it's...
You don't like your neighbor and you kill
them,
it's... You don't have the right to resort
to force to physical force. To settle
disputes with people. Part of what a civilized
country is and what it means part of...
To say it's civilized is it has genuine
rule of law
is that the use of force is put
under
control of the government.
So that it if you have a dispute
with your neighbor,
you try to... Might try to resolve it,
just ami If you can't, you might have
sue your neighbor for some 80 days you
days fences is actually on your property and
he won't move it. There's mechanisms
by which to address
disagreements and disputes,
that aren't taking force into one's own hands
and decided it, like I don't like what
he's doing. So I'm gonna beat him up.
I'm gonna kill him And the same is
true for political
candidates and political
disagreements. If you don't like a candidate,
you can
vote against them, you can support other candidates
you can enter the race politically,
whether it's local, state or, or federal
positions. So there's all kinds of mechanisms by
which we resolve
disagreements and disputes
that are
explicitly not
taking the use of force
into your own hand.
And so
for anybody who's on the side of civilization,
this kind of act should be seen as
barbaric
and out of bounds. And period, like that's
the end of the analysis in a certain
way. The moment someone
thinks that they can wield force.
That's
unsupervised
by
law and by government. They can just take
the force into their own hands, they should
be condemned And it doesn't matter if you
think what you think of their reasons for
it. The moment they resort to force,
that should be the end,
of the the analysis in terms of their
definitely
in the wrong and, like, way in the
wrong
And it's worth pointing out that there's at
least some
reason to think that this was an attitude
that Ina rand herself.
Once expressed, put up on the
screen
passage here taken from an interview that was
done, with
acquaintance of hers,
about her reaction to the Kennedy
assassination. I just read it on According to
Fred Fe, she was interviewed back in 19
99.
He said on the day, President Ken died
that evening, I was at a lecture that
she gave.
The question answer period, somebody said something like
you never like President Kennedy. So his death
is nothing to grieve about. She got terribly
upset about that remark and said, the quote,
this is America. This is not the way
we do away with presidents. We do away
with them in a very civilized manner. We
vote. We do not kill people.
I just wanna chime in on that, Ben
and say 2 things. 1, this is from,
the book, 100 voices in oral history of
Ina. And oral history is it's primary source
material, but it's also subject to a lot
of the distortion that can arise from memory.
And so we
we have to keep that in mind. It's
not clear how accurate this remembrance is, if
it is accurate, then, I I definitely agree
with that perspective.
That as Carr was saying earlier, this is
a hallmark mark of a civilized society that
you you...
You move political power peacefully and nobody in
a society
is permitted or condone to take the law
into their own hands for. And any any
for any reason. And the other point I
would raise here is that
to go to your point earlier, Ben about
this goes without saying, unfortunately, and I think
this is why we have to have such
a long discussion today. It it it isn't
going without saying there are people
I'm minority of people who are who who
are anti Trump and would have liked the
bullet to go in a few millimeters in
the opposite direction and and harm him, and
there are people who are for Trump and
who who see this as a...
Who are inventing all kinds of stories about
how this came about, and so that there's
a lot to say about how people are
processing
this event. And
as you said as well, that it's understandable
that people think of it as
possibly a an example of political bots. But
the the fact that we have this climate
is a significant issue. And I think
the
injection of this arbitrary use of force
is a significant,
really scary development
But again, it's not... I don't think it...
Should be seen in isolation. That's an important
feature here.
So in in light of
some of those comments about why,
political assassination, like any kind of...
Killing of,
innocent civilians is so horrific.
There's been a lot of commentary on the
secret services
failure to prevent this in the first place.
But
what should be our view of,
them generally speaking,
in in light of this kind of circumstance?
And, do or do they deserve the kind
of scrutiny that they're currently getting given the
importance of preventing assassination.
I I think the answer is in the
long run, yes, but one's first reaction shouldn't
be
to
target the secret service and say they're incompetent
and certainly not There was some kind of
conspiracy
to allow the to look the other way
and allow this to happen.
I have the same reaction in regard to
09:11.
1 might think that for 09:11, there were
intelligence in military,
failures
leading up to 09:11. But the idea that
that's... You're gonna your be your primary focus.
Right after 09:11
of, like, what what did people screw up
rather than your focus is on the the
perpetrator of the attack and trying to figure
out is was he a loan actor or
was he involved that that could this happen
again? Is he part of, about some kind
of movement or group? And so, like, that's
all the focus.
That's what the focus should be, and they
should gain our support and doing that and
more broadly, they should gain our support in
the fact. That they're doing a very difficult
and important job of protecting our political figures.
And just the it it... And it's not
all... Don't politicized everything. You brought up Reagan's,
the the attempt on Reagan's life. That was
not... It didn't seem at least from what
it came out afterwards.
Politically motivated,
it was the the
the attempted assassin.
It was the
I think with Jody Foster. And it was
this with like, it was something about trying
to impress her. This has become, like, famous.
So and it But that's still... Their life
is on the line when they were faced
somebody like that. And the idea that, like
your first response is to... Criticize them or
go after rather than to be appreciative of
the fact that there are these people and
that they shot. The guy who was... Was
taking shots and and, I mean, hit Trump
and killed somebody else... Like, that's... I think
once first run, once first
reaction should be.
And I wanna just time in, again, ben
and say, I'm sure we'll get to this
later in the conversation, but the... There's a
really important
issue here, which is the rush to
analyze
their performance? Did they failed? Did they not
failed with what did they know? What did
they not know?
And
it's understandable, but it's premature and the important
issue here is to respect the need of
objectivity. Takes a lot work to reconstruct what
went wrong. And this is... I'm I'm open
to the fact that they did things wrong
and that they maybe fell down the job.
I don't know. And that's the point. It
takes it's too soon to form of view
and forming a view in, in a, Rush
as many people are eager to do. And
and worse than that is is
embracing conspiracy theories or conspiracy fantasies at this
point. I think that is really telling about
the quality of people's thinking or non thinking,
And I think it speaks to the kind
of culture that we are in and the
sort of the tribal mentality that is surfacing
or becoming more salient in many people's.
Experiences.
Yeah. And I think that last point,
Elon is
a good segue to the next big
issue we wanted to talk about, which is
that... So there's this question why even comment
on this if it should go without saying,
that assassination are or are terrible,
why comment. Now, you already spoke to that
somewhat by saying, well, it's not going without
saying for some people and that needs comment
but there is a wider
cultural issue here, and
the the fact that people are
So ready to see this as politically motivated.
As it might turn out to be is,
a sign
that
we've seen this rising hide of political violence
in the last few years. And, I mean,
in in my view, I I often
hide think about how are we doing compared
to the sixties.
I still don't think we're as bad as
it was in the sixties and early seventies,
but it's, like, we're getting there. And we've
we've commented in other instances of political violence.
And I think we need to comment on
this 1 too and try to understand where
it's coming from and,
hold responsible anyone or anything that's
contributing to it. And so
it... There has been this rising tide to
political violence, and I think it's been coming
from both sides of the political spectrum, and
and we should talk about it. Should talk
about how it's coming from both sides,
Elon, on Card, you wanna, do you want
to jump in to characterize that? We Well,
I wanna say 1 thing that's
it's going back a little bit, but it's
connecting to this issue because you're bringing up
the sixties,
and the seventies and the kind of political
violence that existed then,
we talked about
Ina ran, what she... Said or is it
p to have said about the Kennedy
assassination. So that's in the sixties.
It's worth pointing out, I think, because it's
relevant to
people's processing it in regard to Trump.
Iron ran was a...
I mean, a
I was gonna say a critic of John
of Kennedy, but that... That's putting it somewhat
mildly. She thought that he is moving the
country
away from freedom
towards a kind of authoritarian fascism.
That was her review of Kennedy and Kennedy
administration,
And
that
that in her mind, I think this a
part... Like, I can imagine she was horrified
by somebody thinking. Yeah. So, like, what's the
big deal that he was assassinated
as though that is somehow capturing her view.
And you can... Simultaneously
have a view of a political figure or
a political
party that it's moving the country away from
freedom,
and think that that does not justify justify
at all does not mitigate at all the
use of political
violence in order to try to prevent that,
person from gaining power. And she... Part of
the reason I ran was so active in
regard to politics, I think. And thought people
in general, like citizens you should be active
because it matters who gets into power and
what they do, and it's true that you
can have candidates
who moving, oh, trying to or actually moving
the country in a bad direction towards less
freedom. And you have
the ability
to
advocate against that speak against that right against
that organize
politically
and then vote and that's what you have
to do and you should do against candidates
that you
oppose. So you can simultaneously,
be radically opposed to a candidate and think
that
any use of political violence
is completely out of bounds as and is
to be condemned. And I think that's what
you get from her and why... She spent
a lot of time advising people about how
to think about the political candidates how to
vote how to think about the parties? Because
that's what she expected them to do not
to go out and reach for a gun.
So to your point then about the the
climate that we are seeing and just to
connected to what On encore is bringing up,
You know, I think of this
climate, and I'll I'll give some examples of
what
constitutes this trend or pattern
it's it's the abandoned men of the mind
as the tool for solving disputes of using
persuasion. It's it's the recourse to jungle force.
It's it's really nothing more than that. And
that... That is a an essential
to understanding why it's so evil. It's you're
you're breaking from civilized discord from civilization, which
is... It's such an achievement that we have
societies where where there's a dispute. There are
objective ways to to resolve it without coming
to blows. That is just... It's a it's
a a peak in human
development that people just don't appreciate because most
of human history has not looked like that
and that's why the rise of political violence
with this this climate is it's a retro
regression, and it needs to be... Seen as
a retro regression recognition. So what are some
examples we're talking about? What do we say
when
what are we pointing to in the world?
So just take some recent examples?
Stop oil, and they go and van museums
and they spray paint on buildings and they
they try to slash paintings, and it looks
like a stop but that is violence. That
is destroying property. That is
disturbing people's enjoyment of an art museum or
there there are ability to get into a
building.
Well think during Covid,
following the murder of George Floyd, there were
riots in cities across the United States. The
the black lives matter protests.
And we we've talked about that at length
on this, podcast over the years. But those
as much as they were,
varied
many of them were riots. There there's no
way around there. The people's property, their shops,
their businesses were ran. They were looted. They
were just destroyed. People's livelihoods were were decimated.
That is a an example of taking
force into the streets in the name of
some political goal. And even more recently than
that, we've talked about the
Pro
campus and cabinets and the protests in the
streets in New York and other major cities
around the United States and across Europe. We've
seen this too. And it isn't... We're not
talking about peaceful protests. We're talking about people
ripping down
American flags putting up Palestinian flags. And chanting
for the death of Jews chanting for tearing
America down, and all the the coded slogan
and the shi deaths of from the river
to the sea. That is an
extermination
slogan. That is a threat. That is a
a
in many cases, it's a threat to the
people on cap. So that is... And I
think threats are a kind of force.
And so when you see that, and that's
happening at elite campuses of Columbia it's happening
at many many universities around country.
That is part of the climate that we're
talking about.
And I think 1 1 thing that is
important to flag here
is,
I've given examples from the last 10:15 years.
You can go even further back. To the
anti
globalization protests in the 19 nineties where there
were people going
to to protest the fact of economic integration
across the world
and the growth of businesses around the world.
So there's just
a number of these that have grown over
the years. And what I would emphasize in
this is
people will take
up arms and they they they commit Violent
act and they they violate the rights of
others, a lot all the time and they
do it for political reasons all the time
in a lot in different places. It has
no place in the United States. Has no
place in a fee society. But what is
the most
alarming feature of this is the reactions to
it. And the fact that it's in some
places condone, in other places encouraged,
and just the the idea that it's become
more accepted and normalized. I think that's part
of what is making this climate because the
more it happens the more it's accepted, the
more becomes
is something that is a feature of our
society. It's harder to get rid of.
And I think that's part of why this
is...
It's hard to turn around, but it it's
important to see that it's layered upon layered
reactions, and and and encouraged behavior over time.
Elon, you gave a number of examples of
political violence ema from the left in the
last few years. And It's important to note,
of course, there's not yet any reason to
think
Trump's shooter was on the left. He's actually
a registered Republican, but there's also a lot
of violence coming from the right, and
it's hard to see exactly why Republican would
want to shoot Trump, but On card, you
have comments on right wing political violence.
Yeah. And I I... So there's a way
in which you can think of this as
left right, but it's an error. I think
to think of it like that. Yes. So
what's good about
the fact that there's been... I think you
put it something like it's been that across
the political spectrum, there's been...
Condemnation of this attempted
assassination
of Trump. What that means
is if it's sincere, What it means it
doesn't matter what this person's motive was and
what their causes. And whether I think that
causes good or not.
You cannot use violence to try to enforce
to try to advance that cause. And so
what the of the ones that
the lawn brought up.
You can think of them on the left,
but what that means those a B, the
stop oil. But what that means is there's
people who think
Yeah. I agree with that cause. I want
us to use way less fossil fuels.
I think blacks are being
unjust treated by the police.
And that that caused them justify I can
use force or I'll look the other way
or not
severely
criticized people when they take up arms
in the name of that cause because I...
I'm sympathetic to the cause.
That's what is wrong, and it does... The
the the idea that a cause can justify
the use of force. You're on the side
of the use of force and against civilization
if you think that. And the fact is
that across the political spectrum but it's really
deeper than the political spectrum. It's too many
people now think the way to resolve problems.
Is to resort to force. And when it's
people I don't like, I'll call them out
and condemn them for using force. But when
it's people I like
And I think or on my side, then
I'll be ap.
I'll look the other way. And you... I
mean, 2 of the major things
of the...
That would be put on the right. You
can think of what happened under the Trump
administration
and the reaction to it. And it's in
both,
you can see there's an internal
disagreement that gets
resolved in a certain way, and I think
it gets resolved in being pro the use
of force. So early in Trump's presidency, there
were Charlottesville filled.
And
if you followed those... What happened in Charlottesville
in real time
chronological,
the... This was... It went from Friday
into Sunday,
Trump gave various remarks on the Saturday.
There's was a statement on the Sunday. Some
remarks on the Monday,
remarks on the Tuesday.
The
the tendency
today when people look back on it is
to think what he said on the Tuesday.
What's much more important is what happened on
Friday and Saturday. On Friday,
the
there was... There was speculation that this unite
the right movement was gonna march in Charlottesville.
They had a permit for Saturday.
But there was speculation they're gonna march in
on Friday
at a... In in an area where they
don't need a permit, which was on the
Uv University of Virginia this And I followed
this... I meant live in Virginia, so it's
part of the local news as well. It
wasn't only in the National moves, so it
was easy to follow it was going on.
And
there was that
should have been seen as real
intimidation when they're carrying
torches and weapons and what they were chanting.
But then it there there were people... They've
marched to the Thomas Jefferson
monument, and there were counter protesters there around
the monument,
and it ended up in in fights,
That should've have been the... I mean, I'm
against the whole conception of how people think
about protest in the so called right to
protest. But when it descended into violence, that
should have been the end. They should have
taken away the permit for the Saturday.
They they eventually on Saturday the Declare state
of emergency, but it should have been way
earlier. You should have been on the the
moment force is being used to try to
resolve a political dispute And here, the disputes
that p reported dispute was about,
statues for the confederacy,
Robert Lee statue was the paramount 1.
That's what should have happened in every
politician across the spectrum should have been the
Yeah. This is way out of bounds. And
then if you had the the people per
trading it, their ideology is corrupt, and it's
an ideology that will lead them to use
force, there should have been
outright
condemnation of it, and there was some, but
there wasn't from trump force and he eventually
on Saturday weighed in, and it was a
meal mailed statement and many Republicans.
In his party called him out for. Rubio
did,
Lindsey Graham did, Paul Ryan did,
that Romney did a host said, but this
is way inadequate. You have to be as
president way more
condemn of what happened. And then, I mean,
the the events on Saturday were way worse.
And so this was a partly an internal
battle in the party about, like, this is
unacceptable.
And now if you look at the Republican
party, it's
Oh, no. What to don't blame Trump for
what anything he did in charlotte sphere. There's
nothing to criticize Joe Biden making it all
up. It's a And that is
a
sort of looking the other way in the
use of force. And
that people rightly
treated because this was early in the prem
presidency.
Is this his attitude towards force?
And and the use of force, and what
happened on January sixth had similar things. Again,
you had the
outright use of force
by
supporters of Trump.
And
he for hours
couldn't come out when... It's foot, like, we're
watching this on Tv. The people attacking the
police on the capital
bashing in indoors and windows.
So... And
for hours, he can't get on Tv
and call it off. And when he eventually
has
a press conference about it. It's...
Oh, yeah. This election was stolen
And I... Sort of I understand why you're
fighting, but you can't do this and we're
supposed to be peaceful
and law order supposed to...
But you're very good people,
but you should go home that it was
so again, if if 1 thinks that in
comparison to the reaction to the assassin
they attempted assassination on Trump, It was nothing
like that condemnation of the use of force.
And if you don't do that, you're... Whatever
you say, you're
actually helping
that making... So the... I think along, you
put it as normalizing the use of force.
To settle political disputes. You're actually normalizing that,
And that's part of what it means that
we're in a
environment. Like, my reaction when I heard about
the attempted assassination is, unfortunately. Like it's not
good to have this reaction, But it was,
unfortunately, I don't find it that surprising because
the use of force, it's to settle political
disputes is has become much more normalized.
And in that environment, you should expect. It's
it's not to say this particular incident is
1 of those, but you should just expect
that force will be resorted to more often.
I just wanna chime in with something, Ben,
and we'll will get... We'll dig into this
a bit more 2 2 quick things that
I see some questions have come in, and
we we'll definitely try to take as many
questions as they're are. So 1 question is
about
advice on voting, I think. And I I
just wanna make a general comment about how
we think of our
relationship to the political scene as an organization
that is a 05:01 c 3
nonprofit. So the issue is a non profit
educational philosophical organization. Our our purpose today and
it always is to educate people
about In rand ideas and their application. And
when we talk about politics and particularly during
the election season, our our goal and it's
not part of our mission. It's not something
we ever try to do is our goal
is not to steer you towards a particular
candidate. We don't advocate for candidates. We don't
advocate against candidates.
Oral legislation. So what your... What we're trying
to do is to bring out
the philosophical moral dimensions of what is going
on in the culture. And what's important to
think about. And in that sense, that fits
our agenda as an organization to help you
think philosophically
about what some of the most important events
in the culture are. So IIII think for
the person asking about advice on voting. I
I I'm not gonna be able to answer
that, and that's not a question. That we
are aiming to answer here.
That's 1 point I wanna raise. I think
the other point... And I think this will
come out as we talk more about
the kinda culture that has normalized political violence.
So just the use of violence
to solve this disagreements,
I'm curious from... Just to make
extra extra clear, nothing that we're saying here
should be taken to mean that
Trump had it coming. I I don't think
that's true. I don't think you should look
at him. Because I think he's a victim.
He... I don't think anyone would want. I
certainly don't want harm to come to him.
Things important to understand that is not...
The the attempted assassination is not something that
things he deserved, not not even by a
mile. Right? So that's important to understand. At
the same time, it's important to be able
to evaluate him as a political figure. And
that's part of what we're saying that you're
thinking about Charlottesville his reaction to that. You'd
thinking about January 6 and his reaction and
there's still more to say about those...
And those things need to be evaluated and
criticized, even as he's recovering from this attempted
assassination, and even as I don't wish I
certainly don't wanna see any more of this
kind of behavior from anybody in the culture.
So this... But both of those things can
be true at the same time, and and
it's important And I I wish I didn't
have to say this, but I think it's
important that it has to be said because
the way people process this as we indicated
earlier,
and
criticizing Trump means you're on the side of
the assassin. Or if you're,
for Trump then you think he can't do
wrong, and that's none of that is true.
This not the right way to think about
these issues.
Alright. So let's let's go back to the
the thread that you are developing, Ben, You...
Do you wanna chime in here?
I wanted to come back to On encore
and ask him a bit about what he
just said
about,
Trump and,
violence on the right
because... Yeah. I think well the
reaction of summon in our audience to... You're
having said that would be to say why
why bring this up when he's suddenly the
victim.
If it's if it's not that you think
he had it coming,
why do you think it's important to point
this out? Why do you think it important
to point out. And this is something that
we talked about before we had the episode
Are we going to discuss this or not,
and
we decided it was very important to it's
comment on ways in which Trump has
encouraged
or at least not
discouraged this climate of violence,
why is it so important to talk about
this now?
Because the the basic
issue... To go back to the start of
the what we were talking about is
are you against and
on principle
and consistently,
Are you against the use of violence
and
when many of these are violating that... That's
a
incredible and and often swift use of force
but more broadly, are you against the use
of force
to settle political
disagreements.
And if you are you have to be
across the board
on principle
and
anytime you see the use of force
even if it's criticized, if it's not viewed
as out of bounds
as this is the descent
from
civilization to barb,
then you're not actually against it. It's a...
The issue requires
a strong and principled
stand.
And
anytime you see that that's not happening,
you have to be deeply concerned. And so
I have the same or or, like, essentially
the same view.
Of Charlottesville
and of the B m riots,
that the way in which
leading figures, so you can think of of
like,
pro
prominent voices
in our culture,
gave
sanction and harbor
after the fact. So when they can see
this is descended into Riots,
This is a descended into force.
They make excuses, they downplay
it.
If you remember for the B of what
Seattle
for... I don't know how many weeks it
was
anarchy key in parts of the downtown, a
police station taken over. And
the lack of
outright and forceful criticism of them. From across
the political spectrum
was very noticeable.
And that and anyone who views themselves as
is I'm really on the side of
civilization
not the the barb.
It
should've have disturb you, and it doesn't matter
if you're a democrat and it's... You think
your party's doing it. It's should have deeply
disturbed you. And I think the same is
true for on the... Thinking of it as
political sides of Charlottesville or January
6 And if you don't have that view
if you can't get it
that it doesn't matter what the cause is
and whether I have sympathy to it. When
they're using force to try to advance the
cause, I have to be a hundred percent
forcefully
against it
if you're not doing that, then you're not
actually against the use of force, and that's...
It's a really important issue.
So I think 1 of the other
reasons that we wanted to talk about this
today is
not just because of the fact that the
this assassination attempt may have been another example
of this rising trend,
of political violence that we've just been talking
about. But because of the the philosophical nature
of what is
responsible for that trend
And
the way you can see
the the the philosophical nature of the reaction
to it. And what's, I think, common to
both of those
is that a certain kind of political tribalism.
And we
we can talk about how that
has generated,
this climate, how it's
characteristic of the response to it. But maybe
before we do that, we should also say
a little something, but what we mean, is
by political tribalism any elon, you've written
a fair amount about this. Before we talk
about how it relates to the latest
news item. Can you lay that out for
us what we are talking about here?
My view of tribalism is informed by...
Soft analysis
of tribalism and I... Because I agree with
her. I think she's she's identified their essential
nature of that in in the Contemporary world
achieved that decades ago. Your you saw this
coming,
in a, in, Essays
many years ago,
I think an important feature of tribalism is
that it's it's the sub...
Of reason
to
commitment to the group. It's not what's true.
It's what is
my group telling me to do. And it's
it's not a concern with truth. It's not
a concern with facts,
concerned with,
aligning yourself conforming to what you think your
group
believes. And you're you're taking your cues from,
typically, it's the group, but that often just
means the leaders of the group.
What this looks like is
being driven by emotions. You you belong or
you don't belong? They're are insiders versus outsiders?
Who do we hate? Who's who do we
keep? Who do we shu?
And who are the people who are our
enemies and making everything bad for us? It
really puts you
in a mind frame,
the more fully it takes over someone's mind.
At being driven by emotions and not your
thought, not the concern with facts and observation.
And I think some of the ways in
which this manifest
is it's all over our political space. So
think about the way people talk about
we have to own the lives, or we're
gonna show the Republicans are wrong about some
point in in a in a Gotcha kind
of way and in the
that's... And people talk about that as point
scoring it. And that's 1 way to look
at it, but more deeply, it's it's about...
Exposing yourself as someone who's very loyal to
the tribe and is showing the other tribe
as inferior as is as
not worthy. And and that's an important part
of the dynamic in tribalism that it's continually
an attempt to reinforce your standing
versus some other group.
And the psychological dimensions is this we we
might get into, But it's is really important
to see that's driven by that
dynamic of
group loyalty over truth, group loyalty over facts,
and your own independent judgment.
This 1 other feature of this, which it's
already come up in in 1 respect is
it's okay if our guide does it, but
it's not okay if they're... If they do
it. So we think about the B protests
and the reactions to it. So I think
there were people who are sympathetic to the
agenda of the black lives matter movement, so
who are part in part of the way
they process is
we're gonna downplay the wrong of rioting and
looting and destroying property and and d people's
businesses.
And that's...
But but when January 6 happens some months
later, it was how
I'm uncomfortable it was that the other side
was doing something
eco at least at least as bad, if
not worse. And so it's okay if our
side does it, but not if their side
doesn't. That this applies not just to the
kind of violence we've been talking about, it
applies to
double standards across the board both to political
leaders
and,
party membership and things like that. So it's
it's this
inherent double standard that you see 1 way
to understand it is is
commitment to your tribe and putting it above
what's important what's true and good.
And I think the final thing I'll say...
And I'm sure there's more to to elaborate
here, and I'm interested didn't what else do
you guys wanna add to this. The final
thing I'll say is that I'll because this
is a a mindset
that puts you...
That pushes you to behave on the basis
of your emotions and reactions, rather than your
judgment,
It puts you... A disconnects you from the
possibility
of resolving disputes
in a civilized way, which means through persuasion.
Reasoning through conversation and trying to get other
the people to see the facts as you
see them at the process as you see.
And so
the the point of tribalism is that you
can't engage with the outside people, people not
in your group, maybe even people in your
group, you can't resolve disputes,
except through force because that's the only alternative
to persuasion. So there's there's a dynamic that
pushes tribalism more and more towards that kind
of It's not really a conflict resolution but.
It... That's the means by which conflicts are
attempted to be resolved. So I think those
are important features of what... Tribalism is and
how manifests and some of the ways it
should connects to this debate.
The this last is something... That I wanted
to ask On encore about in particular about
the connection between
tribalism as we've just characterized it and
not just failing to,
resolve
disputes through persuasion, but
the connection between tribalism and violence,
of the sort we've been seeing more of,
On encore... Can you elaborate on that?
Yeah. Well, 1 aspect of what Elon was
highlighting, which is very important is
the...
If 1 understands tribalism
as it's
devoid of ideas,
that's why you can't persuade. What you can
persuade someone is the truth of some idea
or some principle. You have arguments that you're
gonna establish its truth.
The less and less 1 views one's own
site like that we have ideas and principles,
and arguments,
the the
necessary
consequence of that is,
we can't persuade other people of these.
The... There's... That's not how we arrived at
them where... It's not through arguments.
It's just... Well, this happens to be our
tradition, sometimes they we put in quotes culture,
but they don't mean culture is a culture
of ideas and values. They mean what we've
done in the past, and we're gonna repeat
these things and these out... So part of
what outsiders means is they just don't act,
and they don't sound, like,
we do. They're very different.
We have to fear them. We can't understand
them. We can't really commute
communicate with them. And we certainly can't persuade
them of
that of what's good or of what is
true because that's not how we're functioning. So
that more and more person
descends from thinking of themselves
as I have reasons and I have ideas
for what I hold and I can explain
those to other people,
the more they don't see themselves like that
is the cord... They don't see other people
functioning like that. And then it's, like, how
do you resolve
disputes? And it's only
the what... It's my gang that's going to
win or you're game that's gonna win. There
there's there's no
resolution of who's right.
It's just is who's gonna hold the power.
So everything becomes a power struggle. And part
of what our so called culture wars are.
Today is not disputes about ideas. It's just
disputes about who who's gonna get control of
congress or of the presidency so that they
can ram their
positions down everybody else's throat. You can't convince
anybody And the more that that's the atmosphere,
the more it's you're in a tribal
atmosphere. And
the
talking about
iron iran's
unique
understanding of tribalism,
She
talked often. It's a it's a recurring theme
in her writings of how what she called
a mixed economy.
So when a an economy is moving away
from freedom
and towards more state, which means more government
control. So over the aspects of an individual's
lives over their education, their health care of
who they can hire and who they can
fire,
of their retirement.
I mean, if you think of all the
government programs,
controls and
agencies,
we've moved
heavily in the direction of the individual has
less control over their lives and the government
and the state has more control over their
lives. In that kind of
atmosphere,
is that that that kind of political
atmosphere or or system or it's really an
anti system in the end of a mixed
economy,
you push people
into gangs
that the only way they can defend themselves
is,
I need to find some group that can
wield political power
So instead of you telling me, I can't
on my own land, I can't
cut down trees and build a farm.
Because that would be in,
jeopardize some supposed endangered species,
and I can't edge hate my kids in
this way because the state has a certain
view of how they have to be educated.
The more it's... Like, everything
seems an issue hate of force, you push
people to think. Okay. So the only way
I can have some control over my own
life is if I'm the 1 wielding force.
Not people enforce against me. I'm the 1
who is wielding enforced. My people are in
power
can can do what I want them to
do. And that is you're pushing people
into gangs
into groups
into thinking because the... This... That's what the
system is, and it as it dev evolves,
it becomes more naked that that's what the
system is that it's just it is the
use of force.
Against
innocent people.
And that... It's a... It's 1 of the
political causes
of tribalism,
and and again, this cuts across the political
parties and so. The
everybody in politics today in 1 way another,
pushes the mixed economy, and you're pushing people
into gangs. And I would single out here
to understand the tribalism and the idea that
disputes are gonna be settled by force.
You can't under play Covid.
And the government
responds to Covid.
The idea that the government
can lock us in our homes
For months and months and months
indicates to every citizen, the enormous control that
government has over their lives. Like, you can
all of a sudden tell me I can't
work my business is gonna crumble. I can't...
All... And even in with health care all
I have to be concerned with is Covid.
I can't get tested in cancer screenings and
so... Because that's all come to an end.
The...
That that doesn't push people to think,
okay. It better be my people wielding power.
Because when it's these other people that this
is the what they can do to me.
This the kind of control they can exert
over my life. And the fact that there
hasn't been in the nation.
Soul searching and this it particularly now, the
to think of it politically.
More on the democratic left side
of
how can it be that we thought we
can wield this amount of power over people's
lives for this long, and on the basis
on which they did of part of what
emerged, but it was clear at the time,
they had not much basis for what they
were doing.
That... But that's part of the thinking of
how it pushes people to think
I've got a wheeled force. That's what politics
is about. People forcing me or me forcing
them, and that... But that's what tribal is
in a political level.
Looks like. And it's part... It's... That Covid
is part of symptom and part of cause.
Like many of these things, I think, a
part symptom, part cause of a descent looks
into tribal politically.
And we've got a
a quote from Iron rand on this... Same
issue that you were just talking about An
encore, the role of the mixed economy and
its relationship to tribalism
worth sharing from her lecture 19 77 global
balkan organization. She
she said, the political cause of tribalism rebirth
is the mixed of economy,
the transitional stage of the formerly civilized countries
of the west on their way to the
political level, from which the rest of the
world has never emerged. The level of permanent
tribal warfare and just to add 1 further
thought to the line that you were
developing
on cards. It's it's it's probably worth pointing
out that there... I mean, there was a
time
when
there was a noticeable difference between the right
and the left with regard to the issue
of state and the mixed economy, and
Republicans
stood more for the free market,
and
that's just no longer the case. And if
you look at the recent Republican national
committee's
platform,
there are no remnants of that old respect
for the free market. So and it's something
will be... I think revisiting in a future
episode. I should mention.
But the point is that both sides are
in 1 way or another advocates of the
mixed economy,
therefore, both sides are
responsible for for pushing people into these pressure
groups. And at the end of the day,
then you have a battle between, to rival
gangs,
neither of which stand for
any an rational principle that would separate them.
Ben you should talk. Just chime in on
on some... What we said Yeah. A couple
of thoughts on that. So I thought was
very helpful on car when you
described Covid as both a symptom and a
cause or reciprocal relationship there. And I think
I just take your your point and
underscored because I think the the mixed economy
is exactly the same. It's sort of a
macro level. It's both an effect of tribalism
and it's a driver of tribalism at the
same time And in essence it's a vicious
circle, the keeps reinforcing. Because as you get
more people gaining pressure group, power over the
others, it manifests in into... That's part of
what I think is important In analysis of
the mixed economy and of tribalism,
the the other thing I wanted to to
add to what it's being said,
and this is in part of response to
a question that's come in.
III just wanna underline that
in Rand analysis of tribalism.
The mixed economy is a major...
Factor and an important 1 as in in
partly where I described it.
Another important driver of tribalism. I think
the fundamental 1
in my understanding is it's
it's not something that happened in the last
50 years.
We've seen a lot of significant symptoms of
in the last 50 years. So ben, you
you give an example of how in the
2 parties have become, particularly their republican parties
become less and less
associated with the free market less and a
supportive of. And at this point, I think
there's no 1 really left to supports the
free market and the public can given what's
in the the latest potty platform.
So we can trace those kinds of changes
in the last 50 years or so
maybe even going further back. But the the
roots of the current
expression of tribalism and what she called the
this balkan synchronization of society that splinter it
into pressure groups and other kinds of ethnic
groups or or race
identity groups,
that is the the
culmination or the the
the result of
a long, long progression.
Of eroding
and attacking the human mind reason as a
as a faculty
as something that can reach knowledge
something that is the means by which we
live and engage with 1 another and resolve
disputes, which is... I think the high point
of human civilization, We we got to that
point as thanks in large the enlightenment, which
really put individual,
individuals in their sovereign minds at the forefront
of our thinking.
But most of human civilization hasn't looked like
And what what we are seeing since enlightenment
is counter enlightenment philosophical trends. And that's the
point I really wanna put emphasis on. So
Rand analysis tribalism is that it's ultimately a
philosophical
trend that you need to think about to
understand what's driving it today. The and there's
a lot to say about that. And then
just the the sub point under that is
it's not at all built in. So... Tribalism
is not a feat... It's not a built
in feature of human nature. I don't think
it's true. There's a lot of analyses in
the last. 10 years of... Political tribalism in
in America, particularly.
And their accounts its evolution. It's the this
human nature out I don't think that's right.
I think, I I grew Line Ram, which
is it's it's a default in choosing to
use your mind. Ultimately. That's a very profound
analysis, which I'm giving... Just a headline
level description up, but that's an important part
of
how she is distinctive in and our analyzing
travels. And and I I wanna stress this
because
if you think it's built in, there's no
solution. That it's inevitable. We're gonna just keep
descending into trials. But if you understand that
it is within our power to be non
tribal to be
independent minded to to use our minds and
engage 1 another that way. And
there's plenty of history to show that human
beings can do that, and that's a positive
to achieve and and aspire too.
Then you can get out of this, right.
You you can get out of where we
are and climb out and achieve a better
kind of society. I think that's an important
aspect of her philosophy. It it's a matter
ultimately of the part power of human free
will to choose a better direction. Ultimately move
a culture in a better direction. So I
just wanna make sure that that's something that
we put on the on the table because
it's it's not a all the way people
think of tribalism.
Neither is it a a recent phenomenon
nor is it something that's inevitable it. There
are ways to get out of it.
I think it's
worth now
talking a little bit about
where we've seen tribal
reactions
to this latest
story, the assassination attempt,
Elon earlier
when you were characterizing what tribalism is,
you talked about the
frequent use of double standards where something's okay
for my my group but not for another
and,
On card, I think you
said more about that's to explain where... Coming
from that the tri mentality is 1 that's,
anti ideas. It's anti principal values.
That's
and it's it's it's worth pointing out. I
think you've seen that exact same
behavior on
in in reaction to the assassination attempt that,
whereas
in the past, for instance,
you often see
I mean, the most prominent example that comes
to mind is the assassination attempt on Gabby
Gif, and there was an attempt them by
the the left and by Democrats
to
blame her assassination on the
specifically on very specific political rhetoric,
that, I think it was,
Sarah Pal was using about trying to
get gif out of office. They used a
targeting metaphor, so they were trying to blame
the the targeting metaphor for the
motives of the whoever it was that tried
to shoot cab gif.
And
you now see
people on the right doing exactly the same
thing.
Now it's not that,
rhetoric
has no relationship at all to a a
climate of violence. We've talked about ways in
which it is. When someone digs up the
fact that, Joe Biden had a tweet once
where he talked about targeting Trump for
getting him out of office, again, he use
of a metaphor.
But and says, as I think Laura Loom,
the right wing journalists did, therefore, they are
to blame for this
assassination attempt, I mean, that's quite a stretch,
and it's also quite a
way of distracting from the individual responsibility of
the actual shooter who who was not an
automaton. We don't even have, reason to think
that he was
mentally disturbed yet.
For all, we know, he's a bad guy,
who made a really awful vicious choice,
and
he's the 1 who bears primary responsibility and
yet now you have the right trying to
deflect from questions of individual responsibility in order
to blame.
Other people, adopting the same kind of,
very anti
individualistic, and I should add anti free speech,
other notion, which they, themselves had condemned into
the left for doing,
it
during the get the Gabby gif controversy.
I don't know if you've noticed if if
either you wanna comment on that issue or
if you've noticed other cases of, double standards
in reaction to this latest
this latest news.
I have a couple of quick
observations to offer I'm interested in your perspective
on car. So the J Vance who would
just being picked to be the running mate
for Donald Trump put out a tweet over
the weekend right after the assassination attempt along
the... I don't know have what's exactly in
front of what the the along the lines
of it's the rhetoric that we've been seeing
from the left that's led to this attack,
basically. So the the demon digitization of Trump
and the hatred for him
by the by the
opponents.
And it's a and there's a there's a
very strong
narrative that's come out now, which is that
this has been going on for so long
what do you expect of and it's
entirely directed
towards opponents of Trump.
But but that's just
not all accurate.
Because if you rewind, you can find
as bad if not worse tweets and and
commentary
against Biden from people like marjorie taylor green
and there's a question of how seriously you
have to take about. Unfortunately, she is in
government, and she is a... Elected official. She
has a lot of attention. So
people are complaining about the... A if few
months ago there's a cover of a magazine,
the the national,
sort of the new republic with with had
a picture of Trump as if he was
hitler, They they modified it to make a
look... And and the ideas that he's a
fascist.
Well,
moderate taylor green in 20 22
liken and
Biden to Hitler and not in an illusion
on in an image she literally said he's
Nazi Joe has to go.
So the idea that this is only coming
from 1 side and that it's okay for
our side to do it, but if it's
not okay for them to do it.
That is really just another symptom of what
we've been talking about. This this double standard
perspective, which it I hesitate to call it
double standard because it's not as if there's
a... Standard that they're not really living up
to. It's it's calling other people out for
something that you yourself do, but you accept
as
You don't even think it's a problem on
your side because it serves your goals, and
you're not concerned with whether something's true or
right. You're just concerned what supports your tribe.
I think that's all over the place. And
unfortunately,
it it's true that this kind of rhetoric
this kind of language is contributed. I don't
think it's tribe the exclusive causal factor for
the kinds of violence we're seeing. I think
it is definitely contributed,
and it's not at all localized to 1
tribe versus the other. And I that's an
important point to make because as you were
saying earlier, On Car and Ben,
there is no
conception of what is wrong about violence as
a principle,
and as a consistent
position, and that's what we're seeing
I think in in the way in which
people are bringing up the accounts and the...
The the
blaming of
heated rhetoric around the elections.
Let me say 2 things. 1 about...
The issue of double standards and then something
about
what 1 can do
as an individual and some of the questions,
I think 1 should ask what's up. So
I agree with you that it's being charitable
to call it a double standard
because what that means,
Is
the person
the... At and it's best what it means
is the person wants to live up to
a standard
and isn't, and you're calling them out, like,
that's a double standard. And on the expectation
that it will bother them. Like, really like
it's a double step. But I'm trying to
uphold this idea or this principle and you're
saying I'm doing it inconsistent,
and it would bother that. When it doesn't
bother them when they pointed out, then it
is to call it a double standard, it's
charitable because it suggest trying to live up
to an idea or a principle
and they're failing, and it would bother them
that they're failing.
What we... That we're in a tribal age
it's... When I talk to people about some
of these issues,
I find it stunning
how
they're... They don't care at all, that it
it... Like, if you had a view that
of a principle... We're trying to have a
principle view, it'd be
Yeah. I don't know how to square these
2 things,
but the their processing of it is just...
Yeah. It's the other side doing it it.
And so that... It's in a totally different
category than if we do it. And that's
a tribal processing, not of a trying to
have a principle
perspective. And the
the amount of conversations I had with people,
where it's
B is bad, but January sixth, they'll make
all kinds of excuses. They'll rewrite what happened.
Mean, that was an episode again that many
republicans
criticized Trump, and now they've either left the
party or fallen in line. And and so
that whole episode is being rewritten. And that
a person, it will be...
They can't hold that...
Isn't there some similarity between these 2 because
in their mind, But the other side. So
there's is no similarity. And that's when you're
in 2 different threads. The other tribe,
And so it's totally different,
unintelligible,
but bad, and I have to fear it.
I have to stop it, and that's tribal.
And so 1 of the most important questions
somebody can ask themselves in political debates is...
Am I really trying to figure out what's
true? Am I really trying to figure out
what actually happened on January 6? Or what
were the nature of the B protest? What
actually happened in Seattle? It's a white washington
say, oh, they were mostly peaceful the protest?
What about the ones that weren't And what
was done about them? What was said about
them? How were they possible that they happened
and you have to really be thinking? And
you have to ask yourself? Am I trying
to reach a... What I think is a
true
conclusion, or am I trying to find... To
get to a conclusion that I'll find emotionally
satisfying?
So... And once that, I got that, I
stop, and that's it. And the... If you're
doing the second, you've succumb likely to to
tribal atmosphere. And it's... There's a lot you
can do if you ask and be honest
with yourself. Am I really trying to figure
out what's...
And in that context double standards will really
bother because it's then it's... Yeah. I can't
integrate these things. It doesn't make sense. Shouldn't
I be saying something similar if I'm outraged
by the B, m? Shouldn't I be outraged
by January sixth as well.
I just wanna add 1 on floor to
this page.
If I can just jump jump in,
the there's a not... There's many dimensions to
the way in which people
right. So come to tribal thinking
without fully recognizing it. I think that's part
of what you're... What I take from your
comments. Is just to be... To notice that
that's happening and to ask yourself, what's the
final
motivation here? Is Am I trying to understand
the truth and figure it out? Or am
I just going with something that's
tribal
emotional,
satisfying.
I think, the other kind of thing that
I've seen
is
So, I mean, there's definitely 2 quick things.
1 is that there's exactly the same
phenomenon with the B protest as there is
with January 6. January 6... That's an interaction.
It's gonna it's gonna topple the Republic. These
people all need to be thrown in jail
forever and ever and ever. And I think
many of them deserve to be in jail.
I think it was a fundamentally
alarming development.
But you can't hold that view. And then
as you were pointing out by illusion, the
B was mostly
peaceful. And and how could you how could
you be objective? There's just normal people coming
out of our homes in into a fundamental
injustice Well, that some of them might have
be been, I don't think that's uniformly true,
and and that kind of mirroring is it's
really important to see that that's happening
in both directions. And then second quick point
in in relation to this,
the other kind of dimension of
bible thinking
is
the idea that if you're critical of Trump,
you must be for biden.
And if you're critical of Biden, then you
must be for Trump.
And... That's just not even remotely true. That's
not even logically true many other options. Not
that I'm here to to talk about the
other options, but that... That's just not the
right way to think of it. But if
your reaction to oh, this person's is critical
of Trump,
they must be in Biden camp. They must
be just pushing for the democratic agenda.
Why is that your immediate reaction? Why is
that your assumption?
Why are you thinking in those ways? That
isn't really
being concerned what the person in front of
you is telling you? What are the facts
they're trying to present you with what's the
conclusion they're are getting for?
If if your immediate reactions to put them
in the other
pigeon hole because they're not saying what you
to say. They're not saying the things you're
familiar with it they're are comfortable with.
That is that is a question to ask
yourself. Are used to succumb to tribal thinking,
beck And and if you notice it happening
very immediately,
are you actually thinking Or is this just
an emotional reaction that you're cheating as if
you're actually thinking.
And that's true for for for in both
directions. I think there's a lot that an
individual should be orient themselves to in...
How they think about these issues so that
they don't become part of this climate,
and that's sort of another perspective on what
you're saying, which is
stuck outside of this climb. It's not good
for you. It's not healthy for your thinking,
and it's not gonna lead you to better
politics. So I'm gonna lead you to better
country. You need to
embrace what it means to be individual an
individual who's independent minded
and not succumb to this toxic
mindset.
Yeah. I I wanted to talk about
following up on something On encore said about
the connection between the tribal mindset and not
caring about what's true,
to me, the most,
I guess, el
expression
of the intensity of the tribalism,
in the reaction to this assassination attempt is
the
torrent
of
that we've seen pouring out of both sides
of the political spectrum. And somebody,
Daniel asked us a super chat question about
this. So I definitely wanted to comment on
it
what's especially interesting to me in this case,
and it, comes from,
morbid curiosity,
in part on my... In my case that
is the... Is how
rapid,
how rapidly the conspiracy theories poured forth
and how
both sides of the spectrum
engaged to them. On the basis of the
same,
completely
impoverished amount of evidence. The New York Times
ran a story the other days, documenting how
long it took.
For the first
conspiracy claims to pop up on social media,
after the first news of the shooting.
When we knew almost nothing
about what was happening, hardly even that there
was already... That there was even a shooting
was 4 minutes.
4 minutes.
And then only 30 minutes after that, did,
Laura Loom a prominent journalist with a million
followers,
start alleging that,
Biden was somehow
responsible for having ordered des shooting.
And
but it's on both sides. The the the
right, it has been claiming that it was
some kind of inside job by the... Biden
an administration or the secret service, to knock
Trump out of the race, the left has
been arguing that the whole thing was staged
that Trump was never really in any danger
that it was all done just to boost
his image as though he needed it
after the last few weeks.
And
danger the the thing to notice is the
utter lack of evidence.
How could there be time to gather any
evidence if
the news has only just come out.
And the manufacturing of of apparent evidence to
make it look like there's thinking going on
when In fact, they're... Isn't really both sides
would point to the fact that
this this guy was able to get up
on the roof and how could that have
happened? It must have been that somebody
let it happen. And, I mean, that's just
a complete non s,
there's no actual thinking going on there. There's
a there's a dozens of reasons why,
the secret service might have failed
innocently to catch him and no reason at
all
to think that that is any evidence
of a conspiracy.
And so what's interesting about it to me
is in the absence of evidence,
the fact that you have both sides of
the political spectrum
gl onto a theory,
it it really brings out the tribal element
of it because they
they're in this... They're in effect engaging in
in political wish thinking. They really want it
to be the case that it Biden who
did this because then they can blame it
on him and score political points. They really
wanted to be the case that Trump faked
it because then they can blame him for
staging this just as a propaganda and measure.
It's entirely driven by their
imagination by their wish visual thinking, and by
their tribal loyalty by their desire to be
on
once on the side of the good guys
and against the bad guys. And
neither of them
have any basis in evidence for their claim.
And then to use this thinking,
and to weapon it so rapidly and and
massively
on social media. So soon after the fact,
when we talk about the way in which
tribalism is conducive to
a climate of violence. Well, I mean, this
is 1 of the ways that it does
it. This is 1 of the ways that
it does it by,
allowing
emotions rather than evidence.
To rule the day in
discourse.
And not only
that, but in a way where you're now
saying, it's not just that the other side
is bad,
and we're doing everything we can to oppose
the other side. But also the other side
is planning in secrets,
not just to undertake Nefarious acts, but even
to to kill presidential candidates. I mean, when
more and more people believe that, they see
the other side as as this
completely demonic
power. Well, it's it's little wonder that,
as there's a kind of cycle of violence
that is...
That continues to be perpetuated.
Lawn, I wonder if you have any further
thoughts or comments on the
aspect of this tribal
reaction?
Yeah. 2 ways in which it 2 further
ways in which it connects to the tribalism
it's sort of implicit in what you've said,
but
both you can think of as
the... What tribalism
means
is the absence
of ideas, and of principles.
That's a very
hard state in which to live,
and in a modern
civilized world to be stripped of ideas and
principles that can help you make sense of
the world,
it's... You you feel at sea and what
and these kinds of fantasies part of what
they do is they give the... Sem
of understanding and the sem of explanation and
control
that its I'm not out of control and
the people around me aren't out of a
control. It's no.
I've got an explanation of how why things
are happening. And
So it's the sem of an idea of
the theory, but it's devoid from evidence,
and it's devoid most of the time from
any kind of consistency or full logic when
you try to trace out. It doesn't make
any sense that that
like simultaneously
Biden
is
close to sen aisle, buddy's he's plotting these
master plots and they like the the that...
Those there's so many things that don't make
sense, but it... That's what... It's just a
sem
of thinking and the... What they project then,
it's not
the other side might be
gaining power
because they've convinced people of anything. So the
conspiracy... That it's a is always
some nefarious thing that people have wielded power
and part of it, what makes it seem
like you could use force. If we just
eliminated those people.
That would solve things because there's not ideas
that you have to address and counter and
so it's just people. And that's... Also part
of how the tribal looked. The other side
is a bunch of people
plotting against me in some kind of way.
And I have to eliminate of people not
fight the ideas that they're advocating.
And the the... So that the the the
conspiracies
always goes with tribalism. I think in any
modern. Like when we're try... Talking about tribalism
in a modern environment.
So when we're talking about collapse from
civilization, they I think they always go together.
1
interesting historical anecdote to add to that, On
encore is a...
1 of Ina rand, essay essays is analyzing
the phenomenon of tribalism is,
her essay the missing link, which came out
in I think 19 73 or 74,
and there's a there's a portion of that
essay, the original version that was published in
her periodic where she talks about the water
gate conspirators.
And
it's it's interesting how,
obviously, they were ordered by Nixon. Nixon had
a kind of conspiracy.
Fantasy about the Democrats, plotting against him. And
part of the reason that he wanted to
do the water gate breaking or that he
authorize people to authorize the water gate break
was to get the dirt on the democrats
who were plotting this conspiracy against him. And
so in in the course of thinking that
there's this conspiracy on the basis of no
evidence, he then engages in a conspiracy,
which is... That, I mean, the Water gate
is a the exe of of,
actual conspiracies that happen
in American history
which, of course, fails miserably
on his part. And, I mean, that's that's
an example of how this kind of mindset
can can breed the very kind of behavior
that it suspects the other side to be
engaging in.
Given that
tribalism generally is
a consequence of
motions ruling the day rather than reason and
evidence. I think it's important for us to
have,
to to close our discussion by talking about
ways in which
trying to be more objective in one's own
thinking, trying to
based one's thinking on the evidence and logic
rather than emotions is the tonic that we
need,
if if anything can get us out of
this climate, that's that's the only thing that
we'll do it.
And, I mean, there's been a lot of
talk in the last few days,
about the need to turn down the temperature
to,
tone down, the rhetoric.
There's some understanding that there's something wrong with
our mindset that's leading to this climate,
but there's not been a lot of,
actual practical
advice about how
we're supposed to tone down the the the
rhetoric or turn down the temperature,
especially without
actually abandoning our own values because people still
need to stand up turn their values. They
still need to decide how they're going to
vote in this election and so forth.
And so I thought we should close by
talking about that at what what are practical
ways in which 1 can be more objective,
more evidence based in one's thinking, and I'll
I'll I'll start by
kicking us off with the following thoughts.
There is obviously
a
an election coming up, and we're not going
to,
comment on or recommend 1 side or the
other,
to vote for,
But it is worth thinking about
whether it's true that
what both parties are saying.
About the other that the other is
the end of the world in effect and
that we're we're usher in a new
apocalypse for America, if the other side wins.
And I think there's something each side needs
to consider, but why that's not actually true,
Like, even if you think both sides
plan to implement terrible policies, which I think
they do.
Why this doesn't mean it's the end of
the world for America,
not if we maintain our heads.
So for instance, to those on the right,
who are worried so much about Biden. I
would say,
Biden Fbi is investigating
this
assassination attempt.
Biden Cia released information that there was a
plot by Iran
to assassinate Trump, and they because of that
beef up his security at this and recent
events, They've now redo doubled his security at
the Gop convention
as we already talked about politicians and media
figures on both sides of the spectrum have
widely condemned this assassination attempt. So there... It
we talked in the... At the beginning about
why
part of what makes
assassination attempts
so terrible. Is there assault on the rule
of law, and their assault on the constitution.
And I think it's important to see that
there is still some
at least modi,
of respect for that on both sides of
the spectrum,
as witnessed the fact that the Democratic administration
is
making efforts to find out what went wrong
here and investigating to see how they can
prevent it in the future. And to the
left,
I would say the following thing as well
because I think part of why this seems
so...
Why...
Perhaps why some of them are are tempted
to wish that the the bullet had gone
the other way
is they see Trump as this existential threat
to democracy so forth.
And they've been
they've been des
about various losses
to their side in Supreme Court
in in recent weeks.
Notably the Trump Us case where, the issue
of presidential immunity came up. And I think
we plan to do a podcast on that,
sometime in the next
week or 2.
But it is
important to note if you're being objective if
you're looking at the evidence about what's actually
happened in Supreme court, they're are lots of
ways in which the recent court
decisions
have provided a bull work against
the very kind of powerful executive power
wielded by the president that the left is
now worried about. The best example of this
is the Chevron decision which the left didn't
like.
Did a podcast about this a couple of
weeks ago about
why
it... The effective of rating in this so
called Chevron defer is to take... Power out
of the executive branch, take it out of
the administrative agencies who have no oversight whatsoever.
And I I think that if you apply
the same kind of objectivity even to the
Us Trump decision, you'll see, it doesn't
give him some kind of un qualified absolute
immunity to do whatever he wants to or
assassinate. To political rivals. This is I think
1 the things we'll talk about, when we
analyze this decision. But,
there are
institutions in this country. And there's separation of
powers and that contributes to the rule of
law.
And if
they've been remarkable... In my opinion, at least,
they had been remarkably
resilient in the face of that
ever eroding standards and,
increasing levels of state.
And, you, our funding fathers were
amazing people who designed a system that's lasted
quite a long time and has been tested
by stress.
In ways. We we haven't seen before. And
I'm impressed by how well it's done, And
I think it's important to look at that
when you're thinking about,
you know, whether the end of the world
is coming you know, in November.
And if you have thoughts on that, you
wanna add more on Cardio you want.
Yeah. I'll say something on
the...
You need to be solution oriented
and you need to think about
what
actually
are things I stand for? What are my
actual
values
and
which of them is it proper to think
that
government should be enforcing these.
So
to think about... And and so part of
what to get out of tribalism is to
try to ascend to the level of having
some actual ideas. And some actual principles. So
if you're worried
about,
say, the a second Trump presidency
of what he's gonna do isn't part of
the issue
that the president now at the executive branch
of the government
has way too much power.
And if you think of it like that
that it can't be... Oh, yeah, That's fine
if my guys in power But if the
other guy's in power, then all of a
sudden, it's a problem. The... That's a tribal
processing of it, a principled and
perspective my the ideas and values,
it's a problem.
If the presidency
has the power that the modern presidency
has.
And If you think of it like that,
there's all kinds of things that then you
can be
both advocating for, but looking for candidates.
Who...
Yeah. Think of that as a problem, and
they can be on either political side who
think, yeah, congress has to... Take some back
some power that it's ce
to the
executive branch and at... And... I mean, Ran
was already talking about this is part for
analysis of Kennedy of and that we're getting
an authoritarian
and moving towards...
A kind of fascism is that Congress
is... Has ce so much power to the
presidency,
And that's a problem. And it's a problem
regardless of who is the particular oc of
the office
in the in the next year or the
next 2 years or the next 4 years.
The... And, I mean, this is the the
founding file you brought up the founding. They
created a country in a new country, 2
by thinking about the principles and ideas that
should govern government.
And unless you're as a citizen willing to
think about that and to think about it
as
the the in a, in a...
Consistent
principled
way, which is what the founding fathers did.
Then you're actually not on the site of
America, You're not trying to continue the American
experiment,
because it if we are a nation of
ideas,
we're not a nation of tribes.
But first and foremost to make that real
in your own mind. You have to understand
the ideas that led to the creation and
the formation of this new form of government,
and you really have to understand those. And
basically
nobody today is helping you.
So you have to do some of your
own work, and this is part of
the 1 of the reasons to read Rand
is
she has... I think the most profound understanding
of what the American
revolution
actually was.
But what are the deepest ideas that led
to it and and which it's grounded,
the And what are then the ideas that
have to be resurrected,
upheld and defended.
If you're gonna... If you want to be
on the side of seeing the American experiment
continue.
Just 1 final thought on on my part.
You you raised the
question, how 1 can what 1 individual can
do in their own experience and I thought
I I agree with what you brought out
on car. I I would just pick up
a thread from earlier on the conversation, which
I I think comp be overstated.
This...
Phenomenon, we're talking about the the the growth
of tribalism different manifestations of it the way
it
interacts with politics
and the way foster this climate of normalizing
violence.
You
have to choose if you're going to be
swept into it or you're going to take
conscious efforts in your own thinking every day,
and with in every conversation
to be independent and to choose to think
about what's true and what's good by your
own judgment.
Irrespective of what people who are in your
community in your
network and your professional associations,
in your tribe or how you think of
it regardless of what they say. And that
is 1 of the deepest lessons you can
take for mind which is it's a moral
virtue to be independent to think and put
nothing above the judgment of your own mind.
And ultimately, that's the tonic, man as you
put it ben, that's the the remedy for
tribalism is the more people
choose to think independently more engage with the
4 facts, the more they choose to question
what they hear from even trusted sources and
from authority figures and people they respect and
people who are
exerting psychological pressure on the way from everybody,
the more they think independently.
And the more you can encourage in the
the more you model it yourself, the better
this society will become, and the better your
life will be, and the better...
The people around you will be because you
will choose different people to be around. Because
you won't see through
the the ways in which tribalism is affected
both yourself and other people in... And it's
important here not to think of this as
a binary
if someone has some tribal aspect in their
thinking, they're untouchable, and you can't deal with
them. And I... That's not a healthy way
to think of it, and it's true, there
are lots of people who have mix mixtures,
and it's profound mixtures and also the different
areas of they lives. But just be thoughtful
about how to engage with people, even and
especially people you disagree with whatever this voting
preferences are. And so there's a lot that
you in your own life can and in
my view, you should be doing because it's
good for you and it's and it has
ram ramifications for the people around you for
the society the... I think if you agree
with the idea of freedom and human progress
and the values that I ran uphold, then
that... That's something you should want to do
and learn to become better at over time.
And I think that each of us has
that ability to do.
So there is a couple of super chat
questions that came in that I think are
what worth answering before we wrap up,
1 about some of the
political analysis we've done, 1 that's more about,
issue of civil discourse. So we got a
super chat from Joe. Thank you, Joe.
Who asks given that the right so often
follows behind the left and left is by
far the driver of the culture, which seems
to be true here also isn't it a
mistake to treat them as if they are
equally violent and equally the problem.
I'm not quite sure if that's what we're
were doing, but,
Ka elon have give thoughts on that question.
Yeah. I'll I'll say something and then you
guys can
add a few things. But
yeah
I think the basic premise of the questions
wrong, of thinking
that what's the driver of the culture
in political terms. So it's... The left is
more the driver of the culture than the
right. The driver of the culture
is the basic
ideas at work,
and in the end, it's philosophical ideas at
work, So if you put it, and I
think along... You... I forget what the context
was where you brought this up. But if
you think of it as
we had an enlightenment.
And the end product of the enlightenment was
the creation of the United States of America.
It's the last great achievement.
Of the enlightenment and they and it's the
great political
achievement of the enlightenment
and that what happened
at an
intellectual level
is a counter enlightenment, and the kind of
rallying
of counter enlightenment forces
that were never adequately
answered and opposed. I think it's only till
you get Ina iran's philosophy
Do you get an answer and a response,
an
intellectual rational correct response?
To the counter
enlightenment
philosophy.
And I think in the end, that's what
she saw herself as doing, that her great
opponent
She thought of as a manual con. So
not some political figure that she'd dislike, not
Kennedy even though she really disliked... Her great
opponent was a manual con. Because he was
the leader of the counter enlightenment.
And I think that analysis is right. And
so it's...
It's not a left right issue. It's when
and to the extent
that people are on the side of the
counter enlightenment.
There anti American, and it's true
that the you can think of the left
as the socialist
and the even with communism
dominated
a lot of the twentieth century. Dominic a
lot of the time that I rand was
writing.
Dominated
in.
So it's true that the universities
lean left politically,
But that's a symptom not the caused they've
lean left politically
because they turned against the enlightenment and part
of what was essential to the enlightenment was
an
individual
pro reason
perspective on human life. That was replaced. And
the consequence politically will be, you'll think not
in individual terms, but collective terms and you'll
have some...
You'll be in some way in Am with
state, communism or fascism. And the reason that
rose in the twentieth century cost, the grow
globe is because the counter enlightenment forces we're
winning.
So you can think of who are the
leaders of the counter enlightenment forces.
And there's a way in which you can
think of that as it's left, but that's
a symptom not the cause. And
part of Why Ran really... Turned against the
right.
So she was more sympathetic with the Republicans
early on in her
intellectual career and trying to give them
ammunition and even the conservatives,
there's some kind of favorable commentary on the
the more they turn towards religion.
The more it was,
you're not part you're not even trying to
be part of the solution. You're part of
the problem.
And because part of what the counter enlightenment
forces war, and what Ka program was to
revive
religion to regain respect ability for religion against
the enlightenment that was doing away with religion.
And when... So why didn't she support Reagan?
Reagan
was bringing these people back
into politics, and she commented in these terms
about they're taking us back to the middle
ages, which means pre enlightenment
and they have to be seen as the
enemy. And if you think of it like
that, then it's whoever to the and to
whatever extent, they're on the side of the
anti enlightenment.
They're the problem,
and it's at the right...
What would be thought of is the right
in America is so
embedded with religion and religions the anti
of the enlightenment. So you can't think of
it as, like, sort of their hap followers
who aren't the cause of anything. They're part
of the cause
of the present descent
into rational and tribalism, and they have to
be seen as such and named as such.
Let's then take a look at the the
the last question came in, this 1 comes
from Mary. Thank you, Marlene. Also with Super
chat. People are
often more open to a reasonable discussion 1
on 1
than in groups if you're polite honest and
ask questions and don't pretend to know more
than you do.
Thoughts on this.
I I endorse that
major parts of that because I I think
it's important that If I take the question,
if I understand it correctly, it's
be objective
in what you do and don't know.
And try to engage with people
in that way. And I think the this
the additional feature of doing it 1 on
1 versus and groups. I I think 1
way to think of that is it lessen
the pressure on someone if they feel like
they need to be conforming to particular view
if they're on their own, they might not
be that
feel like, oh, I'm gonna be
seen as questioning the Orthodox position I'm gonna
be seen as as a trader to my
group and how could I So I think
there's important things to do in the questions
setup up that are right to do. 1
thing I will add miss something that's comp
other
conversations
that when when trying to reach somebody,
it's very unusual for 1 conversation to be
some efficient to change their mind or even
to make some headway,
it often takes multiple
conversations from different angles, and it it really
depends on your motivation, but
just to have a realistic view of what
can be accomplished in a conversation, even when
you're doing it in the most effective way,
and you you been in An ga, your
your
very seasoned teachers, and you you see this
all the time in the classroom. You need
to engage with people in different ways and
put a point in different ways. And I
think that's it's useful to think of certain
conversations
as,
know, try to reach somebody and it's not
just sharing your perspective, It's... You're you're trying
to present and and and uncover their assumptions
in their errors and help them through that.
And that's an important part of
having a view of what kind of conversation
you're having as opposed to just... It it's
a transmission of your view to them. Well,
that's... That is 1 kind of conversation. But
if your goal is to get through to
them, you have to know that there's a
process, and it it often takes... Multiple
iterations of that.
1 thing I might add about this question
is, I think part of the reason why
people are often more open to reasonable discussion
1 on 1,
is that when you're having a face to
face conversation with someone, you know who they
are,
and they know that you know who they
are, And this is a consideration that does
not often apply, for example, to online
discourse.
I think part of the reason that...
Conspiracies, for example, gets so magnified and,
social media. Is there so many people who
are hiding behind anonymous
or pseudo synonymous
accounts. And if we're thinking about the question
of how can we lower the temperature,
how can we be more objective Yeah, in
our arguments with people,
on political subjects.
If you're a participant in online discussion there,
I think, this question some people in the
current Youtube chad might ask themselves,
is the things that you're saying right now
to your opponents to the people you're... Commenting
on, would you say these? Would you say
these things if your actual name and identity
were attached to them? Or
is is there's something that would hold you
back? Commenting about that.
Would would you would you say the same
thing same same things if everybody knew who
was saying that them if you were accountable
for them that's a fair question
worth asking yourself when you get involved and,
I think these social media,
discussions.
So let's
let's start to wrap up, then. Thank you
again for those super chat questions that came
in. I'm sorry. We weren't able to get
all of them.
I did want to share with our audience,
1
resource in particular,
that I think touches on many of the
issues that we talked about today. And this
is,
a lecture that Ina rand gave,
in 19
72,
a nation's unity,
in part commenting on, the Mc government campaign,
but more broadly
talking about the issue of political tribalism and
how it connects to the mixed economy and
the kind of rhetoric associated with it, and
the the social dynamics by which people are
forced into political tribes because of the mixed
economy and the kind of
a tribal leaders that they end up following
when that happens, it's especially important to note
the, of, quasi fictional story that she tells
beginning of that lecture about somebody who's
deciding how to become political politically affiliated,
in that kind of atmosphere. Highly recommended to
we posted earlier to
institutes various social media accounts
earlier this week. So definitely check that out.
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