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Not since 19 81

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with the attempt and the life. Of Ronald

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Reagan have we seen a president or

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former president, so close to being killed by

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an assassin

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Saturday's attempt on the life of Donald Trump

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was shocking. It was horrifying, and it's rightly

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been condemned

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across the political spectrum in America. We don't

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yet know

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the motive of the shooter, but it is

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easy for many people to wonder if this

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is just 1 more like contribution to the

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rising level of political violence in America not

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seen really since the 19 sixties.

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What has brought us to this point politically

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and culturally? Is there anything that can get

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us out? Well, welcome to new ideal live,

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the podcast of the I'm Institute?

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My name is Ben Bai with me are

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my colleagues, elon Gi, On car.

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We are going to talk about some of

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those questions today, and this is a big.

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Topic that has

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engulfed

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the discourse of the nation for the last

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few days, So especially because it's a

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big and important topic will likely go longer

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than we usually do today, and we will

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plan to take

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more questions than we usually do. So if

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you have them, please

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feel free to send them in using the

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super chat feature,

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or just the regular chat feature in,

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Youtube, especially if you're watching on, Youtube.

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So,

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On encore, Elon.

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I think it should go without saying

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that

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political assassination in a free country is an

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abomination that

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should be condemned should be prevented,

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maybe most people

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realize that's obvious, but just in case, they

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don't,

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what can we say to explain

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why this is so important to do.

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Concur?

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Yeah. You can look at it in

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2 ways. So you can look at it

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broadly

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as an issue of the rule of law,

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but putting that more simply, it's no

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individual citizen has the right to take the

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law into their own hands, the that that

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I don't like a person, and it and

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it doesn't matter this is why it's an

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assassination. If it's for political reasons if it's...

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You don't like your neighbor and you kill

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them,

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it's... You don't have the right to resort

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to force to physical force. To settle

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disputes with people. Part of what a civilized

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country is and what it means part of...

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To say it's civilized is it has genuine

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rule of law

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is that the use of force is put

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under

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control of the government.

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So that it if you have a dispute

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with your neighbor,

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you try to... Might try to resolve it,

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just ami If you can't, you might have

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sue your neighbor for some 80 days you

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days fences is actually on your property and

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he won't move it. There's mechanisms

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by which to address

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disagreements and disputes,

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that aren't taking force into one's own hands

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and decided it, like I don't like what

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he's doing. So I'm gonna beat him up.

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I'm gonna kill him And the same is

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true for political

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candidates and political

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disagreements. If you don't like a candidate,

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you can

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vote against them, you can support other candidates

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you can enter the race politically,

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whether it's local, state or, or federal

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positions. So there's all kinds of mechanisms by

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which we resolve

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disagreements and disputes

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that are

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explicitly not

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taking the use of force

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into your own hand.

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And so

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for anybody who's on the side of civilization,

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this kind of act should be seen as

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barbaric

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and out of bounds. And period, like that's

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the end of the analysis in a certain

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way. The moment someone

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thinks that they can wield force.

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That's

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unsupervised

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by

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law and by government. They can just take

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the force into their own hands, they should

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be condemned And it doesn't matter if you

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think what you think of their reasons for

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it. The moment they resort to force,

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that should be the end,

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of the the analysis in terms of their

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definitely

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in the wrong and, like, way in the

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wrong

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And it's worth pointing out that there's at

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least some

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reason to think that this was an attitude

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that Ina rand herself.

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Once expressed, put up on the

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screen

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passage here taken from an interview that was

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done, with

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acquaintance of hers,

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about her reaction to the Kennedy

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assassination. I just read it on According to

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Fred Fe, she was interviewed back in 19

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99.

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He said on the day, President Ken died

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that evening, I was at a lecture that

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she gave.

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The question answer period, somebody said something like

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you never like President Kennedy. So his death

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is nothing to grieve about. She got terribly

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upset about that remark and said, the quote,

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this is America. This is not the way

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we do away with presidents. We do away

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with them in a very civilized manner. We

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vote. We do not kill people.

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I just wanna chime in on that, Ben

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and say 2 things. 1, this is from,

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the book, 100 voices in oral history of

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Ina. And oral history is it's primary source

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material, but it's also subject to a lot

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of the distortion that can arise from memory.

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And so we

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we have to keep that in mind. It's

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not clear how accurate this remembrance is, if

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it is accurate, then, I I definitely agree

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with that perspective.

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That as Carr was saying earlier, this is

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a hallmark mark of a civilized society that

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you you...

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You move political power peacefully and nobody in

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a society

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is permitted or condone to take the law

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into their own hands for. And any any

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for any reason. And the other point I

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would raise here is that

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to go to your point earlier, Ben about

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this goes without saying, unfortunately, and I think

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this is why we have to have such

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a long discussion today. It it it isn't

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going without saying there are people

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I'm minority of people who are who who

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are anti Trump and would have liked the

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bullet to go in a few millimeters in

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the opposite direction and and harm him, and

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there are people who are for Trump and

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who who see this as a...

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Who are inventing all kinds of stories about

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how this came about, and so that there's

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a lot to say about how people are

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processing

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this event. And

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as you said as well, that it's understandable

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that people think of it as

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possibly a an example of political bots. But

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the the fact that we have this climate

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is a significant issue. And I think

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the

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injection of this arbitrary use of force

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is a significant,

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really scary development

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But again, it's not... I don't think it...

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Should be seen in isolation. That's an important

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feature here.

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So in in light of

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some of those comments about why,

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political assassination, like any kind of...

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Killing of,

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innocent civilians is so horrific.

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There's been a lot of commentary on the

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secret services

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failure to prevent this in the first place.

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But

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what should be our view of,

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them generally speaking,

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in in light of this kind of circumstance?

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And, do or do they deserve the kind

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of scrutiny that they're currently getting given the

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importance of preventing assassination.

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I I think the answer is in the

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long run, yes, but one's first reaction shouldn't

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be

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to

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target the secret service and say they're incompetent

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and certainly not There was some kind of

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conspiracy

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to allow the to look the other way

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and allow this to happen.

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I have the same reaction in regard to

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09:11.

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1 might think that for 09:11, there were

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intelligence in military,

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failures

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leading up to 09:11. But the idea that

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that's... You're gonna your be your primary focus.

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Right after 09:11

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of, like, what what did people screw up

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rather than your focus is on the the

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perpetrator of the attack and trying to figure

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out is was he a loan actor or

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was he involved that that could this happen

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again? Is he part of, about some kind

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of movement or group? And so, like, that's

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all the focus.

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That's what the focus should be, and they

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should gain our support and doing that and

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more broadly, they should gain our support in

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the fact. That they're doing a very difficult

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and important job of protecting our political figures.

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And just the it it... And it's not

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all... Don't politicized everything. You brought up Reagan's,

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the the attempt on Reagan's life. That was

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not... It didn't seem at least from what

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it came out afterwards.

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Politically motivated,

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it was the the

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the attempted assassin.

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It was the

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I think with Jody Foster. And it was

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this with like, it was something about trying

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to impress her. This has become, like, famous.

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So and it But that's still... Their life

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is on the line when they were faced

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somebody like that. And the idea that, like

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your first response is to... Criticize them or

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go after rather than to be appreciative of

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the fact that there are these people and

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that they shot. The guy who was... Was

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taking shots and and, I mean, hit Trump

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and killed somebody else... Like, that's... I think

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once first run, once first

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reaction should be.

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And I wanna just time in, again, ben

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and say, I'm sure we'll get to this

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later in the conversation, but the... There's a

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really important

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issue here, which is the rush to

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analyze

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their performance? Did they failed? Did they not

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failed with what did they know? What did

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they not know?

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And

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it's understandable, but it's premature and the important

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issue here is to respect the need of

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objectivity. Takes a lot work to reconstruct what

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went wrong. And this is... I'm I'm open

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to the fact that they did things wrong

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and that they maybe fell down the job.

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I don't know. And that's the point. It

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takes it's too soon to form of view

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00:10:11,114 --> 00:10:13,903
and forming a view in, in a, Rush

278
00:10:13,903 --> 00:10:16,293
as many people are eager to do. And

279
00:10:16,293 --> 00:10:17,988
and worse than that is is

280
00:10:19,017 --> 00:10:22,283
embracing conspiracy theories or conspiracy fantasies at this

281
00:10:22,283 --> 00:10:24,536
point. I think that is really telling about

282
00:10:24,753 --> 00:10:27,461
the quality of people's thinking or non thinking,

283
00:10:27,954 --> 00:10:29,385
And I think it speaks to the kind

284
00:10:29,385 --> 00:10:31,135
of culture that we are in and the

285
00:10:31,135 --> 00:10:33,783
sort of the tribal mentality that is surfacing

286
00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,146
or becoming more salient in many people's.

287
00:10:36,639 --> 00:10:37,118
Experiences.

288
00:10:39,912 --> 00:10:41,908
Yeah. And I think that last point,

289
00:10:42,946 --> 00:10:43,925
Elon is

290
00:10:44,782 --> 00:10:47,292
a good segue to the next big

291
00:10:47,828 --> 00:10:49,184
issue we wanted to talk about, which is

292
00:10:49,184 --> 00:10:51,177
that... So there's this question why even comment

293
00:10:51,177 --> 00:10:52,772
on this if it should go without saying,

294
00:10:53,809 --> 00:10:56,295
that assassination are or are terrible,

295
00:10:58,208 --> 00:10:59,802
why comment. Now, you already spoke to that

296
00:10:59,802 --> 00:11:01,397
somewhat by saying, well, it's not going without

297
00:11:01,397 --> 00:11:03,252
saying for some people and that needs comment

298
00:11:03,801 --> 00:11:05,095
but there is a wider

299
00:11:06,023 --> 00:11:07,952
cultural issue here, and

300
00:11:08,325 --> 00:11:10,492
the the fact that people are

301
00:11:11,119 --> 00:11:14,070
So ready to see this as politically motivated.

302
00:11:14,309 --> 00:11:16,463
As it might turn out to be is,

303
00:11:17,101 --> 00:11:17,840
a sign

304
00:11:18,537 --> 00:11:19,037
that

305
00:11:19,414 --> 00:11:22,297
we've seen this rising hide of political violence

306
00:11:22,297 --> 00:11:24,206
in the last few years. And, I mean,

307
00:11:24,285 --> 00:11:27,013
in in my view, I I often

308
00:11:27,865 --> 00:11:29,630
hide think about how are we doing compared

309
00:11:29,630 --> 00:11:30,346
to the sixties.

310
00:11:31,062 --> 00:11:32,415
I still don't think we're as bad as

311
00:11:32,415 --> 00:11:34,165
it was in the sixties and early seventies,

312
00:11:34,324 --> 00:11:37,144
but it's, like, we're getting there. And we've

313
00:11:37,439 --> 00:11:40,061
we've commented in other instances of political violence.

314
00:11:40,220 --> 00:11:41,491
And I think we need to comment on

315
00:11:41,491 --> 00:11:44,368
this 1 too and try to understand where

316
00:11:44,368 --> 00:11:45,804
it's coming from and,

317
00:11:46,761 --> 00:11:49,335
hold responsible anyone or anything that's

318
00:11:50,111 --> 00:11:52,924
contributing to it. And so

319
00:11:54,432 --> 00:11:56,582
it... There has been this rising tide to

320
00:11:56,582 --> 00:11:58,175
political violence, and I think it's been coming

321
00:11:58,175 --> 00:12:01,121
from both sides of the political spectrum, and

322
00:12:01,121 --> 00:12:03,207
and we should talk about it. Should talk

323
00:12:03,207 --> 00:12:05,040
about how it's coming from both sides,

324
00:12:05,677 --> 00:12:07,908
Elon, on Card, you wanna, do you want

325
00:12:07,908 --> 00:12:10,710
to jump in to characterize that? We Well,

326
00:12:10,949 --> 00:12:12,722
I wanna say 1 thing that's

327
00:12:13,654 --> 00:12:15,404
it's going back a little bit, but it's

328
00:12:15,404 --> 00:12:17,790
connecting to this issue because you're bringing up

329
00:12:17,790 --> 00:12:18,529
the sixties,

330
00:12:18,919 --> 00:12:20,985
and the seventies and the kind of political

331
00:12:20,985 --> 00:12:22,336
violence that existed then,

332
00:12:23,449 --> 00:12:24,505
we talked about

333
00:12:25,118 --> 00:12:27,282
Ina ran, what she... Said or is it

334
00:12:27,282 --> 00:12:29,218
p to have said about the Kennedy

335
00:12:29,755 --> 00:12:31,031
assassination. So that's in the sixties.

336
00:12:32,068 --> 00:12:35,178
It's worth pointing out, I think, because it's

337
00:12:35,178 --> 00:12:36,396
relevant to

338
00:12:36,789 --> 00:12:39,263
people's processing it in regard to Trump.

339
00:12:40,780 --> 00:12:41,977
Iron ran was a...

340
00:12:43,653 --> 00:12:44,872
I mean, a

341
00:12:46,780 --> 00:12:48,535
I was gonna say a critic of John

342
00:12:48,535 --> 00:12:50,848
of Kennedy, but that... That's putting it somewhat

343
00:12:50,848 --> 00:12:54,618
mildly. She thought that he is moving the

344
00:12:54,676 --> 00:12:55,176
country

345
00:12:55,727 --> 00:12:56,942
away from freedom

346
00:12:57,555 --> 00:13:00,122
towards a kind of authoritarian fascism.

347
00:13:00,496 --> 00:13:03,461
That was her review of Kennedy and Kennedy

348
00:13:04,392 --> 00:13:04,551
administration,

349
00:13:05,522 --> 00:13:06,022
And

350
00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:07,696
that

351
00:13:08,073 --> 00:13:10,147
that in her mind, I think this a

352
00:13:10,147 --> 00:13:12,480
part... Like, I can imagine she was horrified

353
00:13:12,539 --> 00:13:14,859
by somebody thinking. Yeah. So, like, what's the

354
00:13:14,859 --> 00:13:16,469
big deal that he was assassinated

355
00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,249
as though that is somehow capturing her view.

356
00:13:20,645 --> 00:13:21,874
And you can... Simultaneously

357
00:13:22,409 --> 00:13:24,558
have a view of a political figure or

358
00:13:24,558 --> 00:13:25,377
a political

359
00:13:25,832 --> 00:13:28,698
party that it's moving the country away from

360
00:13:28,698 --> 00:13:29,096
freedom,

361
00:13:29,668 --> 00:13:33,032
and think that that does not justify justify

362
00:13:33,407 --> 00:13:36,509
at all does not mitigate at all the

363
00:13:36,509 --> 00:13:37,804
use of political

364
00:13:38,273 --> 00:13:41,056
violence in order to try to prevent that,

365
00:13:41,771 --> 00:13:44,951
person from gaining power. And she... Part of

366
00:13:44,951 --> 00:13:48,299
the reason I ran was so active in

367
00:13:48,299 --> 00:13:51,312
regard to politics, I think. And thought people

368
00:13:51,312 --> 00:13:53,636
in general, like citizens you should be active

369
00:13:54,262 --> 00:13:56,648
because it matters who gets into power and

370
00:13:56,648 --> 00:13:59,113
what they do, and it's true that you

371
00:13:59,113 --> 00:14:00,011
can have candidates

372
00:14:00,385 --> 00:14:04,375
who moving, oh, trying to or actually moving

373
00:14:04,375 --> 00:14:07,153
the country in a bad direction towards less

374
00:14:07,153 --> 00:14:08,923
freedom. And you have

375
00:14:10,011 --> 00:14:11,066
the ability

376
00:14:11,614 --> 00:14:12,114
to

377
00:14:12,573 --> 00:14:15,609
advocate against that speak against that right against

378
00:14:15,609 --> 00:14:16,588
that organize

379
00:14:17,047 --> 00:14:17,547
politically

380
00:14:18,166 --> 00:14:20,255
and then vote and that's what you have

381
00:14:20,255 --> 00:14:22,987
to do and you should do against candidates

382
00:14:23,124 --> 00:14:23,863
that you

383
00:14:24,798 --> 00:14:26,254
oppose. So you can simultaneously,

384
00:14:27,203 --> 00:14:31,110
be radically opposed to a candidate and think

385
00:14:31,402 --> 00:14:31,902
that

386
00:14:32,273 --> 00:14:34,200
any use of political violence

387
00:14:34,667 --> 00:14:37,449
is completely out of bounds as and is

388
00:14:37,449 --> 00:14:39,674
to be condemned. And I think that's what

389
00:14:39,674 --> 00:14:41,502
you get from her and why... She spent

390
00:14:41,502 --> 00:14:43,743
a lot of time advising people about how

391
00:14:43,743 --> 00:14:45,412
to think about the political candidates how to

392
00:14:45,412 --> 00:14:47,320
vote how to think about the parties? Because

393
00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,069
that's what she expected them to do not

394
00:14:49,069 --> 00:14:50,579
to go out and reach for a gun.

395
00:14:53,144 --> 00:14:54,979
So to your point then about the the

396
00:14:54,979 --> 00:14:56,735
climate that we are seeing and just to

397
00:14:56,735 --> 00:14:58,170
connected to what On encore is bringing up,

398
00:14:58,983 --> 00:15:00,681
You know, I think of this

399
00:15:01,138 --> 00:15:02,974
climate, and I'll I'll give some examples of

400
00:15:02,974 --> 00:15:03,474
what

401
00:15:03,932 --> 00:15:06,427
constitutes this trend or pattern

402
00:15:07,139 --> 00:15:09,553
it's it's the abandoned men of the mind

403
00:15:09,771 --> 00:15:12,584
as the tool for solving disputes of using

404
00:15:12,722 --> 00:15:15,035
persuasion. It's it's the recourse to jungle force.

405
00:15:15,195 --> 00:15:17,605
It's it's really nothing more than that. And

406
00:15:17,605 --> 00:15:20,024
that... That is a an essential

407
00:15:20,804 --> 00:15:23,125
to understanding why it's so evil. It's you're

408
00:15:23,125 --> 00:15:26,255
you're breaking from civilized discord from civilization, which

409
00:15:26,255 --> 00:15:28,168
is... It's such an achievement that we have

410
00:15:28,168 --> 00:15:31,118
societies where where there's a dispute. There are

411
00:15:31,118 --> 00:15:34,002
objective ways to to resolve it without coming

412
00:15:34,002 --> 00:15:35,996
to blows. That is just... It's a it's

413
00:15:35,996 --> 00:15:37,772
a a peak in human

414
00:15:38,548 --> 00:15:40,781
development that people just don't appreciate because most

415
00:15:40,781 --> 00:15:42,830
of human history has not looked like that

416
00:15:42,950 --> 00:15:46,070
and that's why the rise of political violence

417
00:15:46,070 --> 00:15:49,450
with this this climate is it's a retro

418
00:15:49,590 --> 00:15:51,282
regression, and it needs to be... Seen as

419
00:15:51,282 --> 00:15:52,553
a retro regression recognition. So what are some

420
00:15:52,553 --> 00:15:54,698
examples we're talking about? What do we say

421
00:15:54,698 --> 00:15:55,198
when

422
00:15:55,889 --> 00:15:57,319
what are we pointing to in the world?

423
00:15:57,637 --> 00:15:59,067
So just take some recent examples?

424
00:16:01,236 --> 00:16:04,110
Stop oil, and they go and van museums

425
00:16:04,110 --> 00:16:06,185
and they spray paint on buildings and they

426
00:16:06,185 --> 00:16:08,501
they try to slash paintings, and it looks

427
00:16:08,501 --> 00:16:10,673
like a stop but that is violence. That

428
00:16:10,673 --> 00:16:12,691
is destroying property. That is

429
00:16:13,390 --> 00:16:16,187
disturbing people's enjoyment of an art museum or

430
00:16:16,187 --> 00:16:17,785
there there are ability to get into a

431
00:16:17,785 --> 00:16:18,025
building.

432
00:16:18,599 --> 00:16:20,113
Well think during Covid,

433
00:16:21,308 --> 00:16:24,038
following the murder of George Floyd, there were

434
00:16:24,176 --> 00:16:26,566
riots in cities across the United States. The

435
00:16:26,566 --> 00:16:28,000
the black lives matter protests.

436
00:16:28,892 --> 00:16:30,647
And we we've talked about that at length

437
00:16:30,647 --> 00:16:34,097
on this, podcast over the years. But those

438
00:16:34,634 --> 00:16:35,830
as much as they were,

439
00:16:36,787 --> 00:16:37,287
varied

440
00:16:38,395 --> 00:16:39,984
many of them were riots. There there's no

441
00:16:39,984 --> 00:16:42,369
way around there. The people's property, their shops,

442
00:16:42,527 --> 00:16:45,071
their businesses were ran. They were looted. They

443
00:16:45,071 --> 00:16:48,608
were just destroyed. People's livelihoods were were decimated.

444
00:16:49,461 --> 00:16:52,029
That is a an example of taking

445
00:16:52,577 --> 00:16:55,038
force into the streets in the name of

446
00:16:55,038 --> 00:16:57,658
some political goal. And even more recently than

447
00:16:57,658 --> 00:16:59,508
that, we've talked about the

448
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:00,540
Pro

449
00:17:01,962 --> 00:17:04,109
campus and cabinets and the protests in the

450
00:17:04,109 --> 00:17:06,018
streets in New York and other major cities

451
00:17:06,018 --> 00:17:07,689
around the United States and across Europe. We've

452
00:17:07,689 --> 00:17:09,778
seen this too. And it isn't... We're not

453
00:17:09,778 --> 00:17:12,095
talking about peaceful protests. We're talking about people

454
00:17:12,095 --> 00:17:12,994
ripping down

455
00:17:13,453 --> 00:17:16,684
American flags putting up Palestinian flags. And chanting

456
00:17:16,742 --> 00:17:19,374
for the death of Jews chanting for tearing

457
00:17:19,614 --> 00:17:23,203
America down, and all the the coded slogan

458
00:17:23,203 --> 00:17:25,197
and the shi deaths of from the river

459
00:17:25,197 --> 00:17:26,828
to the sea. That is an

460
00:17:27,203 --> 00:17:27,703
extermination

461
00:17:28,557 --> 00:17:30,547
slogan. That is a threat. That is a

462
00:17:30,547 --> 00:17:30,944
a

463
00:17:31,502 --> 00:17:33,173
in many cases, it's a threat to the

464
00:17:33,173 --> 00:17:35,411
people on cap. So that is... And I

465
00:17:35,411 --> 00:17:37,155
think threats are a kind of force.

466
00:17:37,710 --> 00:17:39,296
And so when you see that, and that's

467
00:17:39,296 --> 00:17:42,250
happening at elite campuses of Columbia it's happening

468
00:17:42,250 --> 00:17:44,089
at many many universities around country.

469
00:17:45,450 --> 00:17:47,690
That is part of the climate that we're

470
00:17:47,690 --> 00:17:48,250
talking about.

471
00:17:49,223 --> 00:17:51,048
And I think 1 1 thing that is

472
00:17:51,048 --> 00:17:52,421
important to flag here

473
00:17:52,873 --> 00:17:53,111
is,

474
00:17:54,778 --> 00:17:56,444
I've given examples from the last 10:15 years.

475
00:17:56,603 --> 00:17:58,206
You can go even further back. To the

476
00:17:58,206 --> 00:17:58,706
anti

477
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,465
globalization protests in the 19 nineties where there

478
00:18:01,465 --> 00:18:02,601
were people going

479
00:18:03,372 --> 00:18:05,916
to to protest the fact of economic integration

480
00:18:05,916 --> 00:18:06,734
across the world

481
00:18:07,124 --> 00:18:09,040
and the growth of businesses around the world.

482
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:10,498
So there's just

483
00:18:11,036 --> 00:18:12,952
a number of these that have grown over

484
00:18:12,952 --> 00:18:15,667
the years. And what I would emphasize in

485
00:18:15,667 --> 00:18:16,646
this is

486
00:18:18,710 --> 00:18:19,688
people will take

487
00:18:20,223 --> 00:18:22,611
up arms and they they they commit Violent

488
00:18:22,611 --> 00:18:24,362
act and they they violate the rights of

489
00:18:24,362 --> 00:18:26,443
others, a lot all the time and they

490
00:18:26,443 --> 00:18:27,952
do it for political reasons all the time

491
00:18:27,952 --> 00:18:30,017
in a lot in different places. It has

492
00:18:30,017 --> 00:18:31,605
no place in the United States. Has no

493
00:18:31,605 --> 00:18:33,590
place in a fee society. But what is

494
00:18:33,590 --> 00:18:34,249
the most

495
00:18:34,798 --> 00:18:37,109
alarming feature of this is the reactions to

496
00:18:37,109 --> 00:18:38,862
it. And the fact that it's in some

497
00:18:38,862 --> 00:18:41,491
places condone, in other places encouraged,

498
00:18:42,224 --> 00:18:44,697
and just the the idea that it's become

499
00:18:44,697 --> 00:18:47,728
more accepted and normalized. I think that's part

500
00:18:47,728 --> 00:18:50,059
of what is making this climate because the

501
00:18:50,059 --> 00:18:51,820
more it happens the more it's accepted, the

502
00:18:51,820 --> 00:18:52,720
more becomes

503
00:18:53,660 --> 00:18:55,500
is something that is a feature of our

504
00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:56,940
society. It's harder to get rid of.

505
00:18:57,594 --> 00:18:59,659
And I think that's part of why this

506
00:18:59,659 --> 00:18:59,817
is...

507
00:19:00,770 --> 00:19:02,597
It's hard to turn around, but it it's

508
00:19:02,597 --> 00:19:04,924
important to see that it's layered upon layered

509
00:19:06,251 --> 00:19:09,533
reactions, and and and encouraged behavior over time.

510
00:19:12,327 --> 00:19:15,141
Elon, you gave a number of examples of

511
00:19:16,253 --> 00:19:18,730
political violence ema from the left in the

512
00:19:18,730 --> 00:19:20,247
last few years. And It's important to note,

513
00:19:20,327 --> 00:19:22,005
of course, there's not yet any reason to

514
00:19:22,005 --> 00:19:22,299
think

515
00:19:23,136 --> 00:19:24,887
Trump's shooter was on the left. He's actually

516
00:19:24,887 --> 00:19:28,311
a registered Republican, but there's also a lot

517
00:19:28,311 --> 00:19:30,722
of violence coming from the right, and

518
00:19:31,034 --> 00:19:32,788
it's hard to see exactly why Republican would

519
00:19:32,788 --> 00:19:35,500
want to shoot Trump, but On card, you

520
00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:38,292
have comments on right wing political violence.

521
00:19:40,525 --> 00:19:42,686
Yeah. And I I... So there's a way

522
00:19:42,686 --> 00:19:44,775
in which you can think of this as

523
00:19:44,910 --> 00:19:47,611
left right, but it's an error. I think

524
00:19:47,611 --> 00:19:49,932
to think of it like that. Yes. So

525
00:19:49,932 --> 00:19:51,628
what's good about

526
00:19:52,644 --> 00:19:54,797
the fact that there's been... I think you

527
00:19:54,797 --> 00:19:56,551
put it something like it's been that across

528
00:19:56,551 --> 00:19:58,226
the political spectrum, there's been...

529
00:19:59,279 --> 00:20:00,820
Condemnation of this attempted

530
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:01,859
assassination

531
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,580
of Trump. What that means

532
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,850
is if it's sincere, What it means it

533
00:20:07,850 --> 00:20:11,838
doesn't matter what this person's motive was and

534
00:20:11,838 --> 00:20:14,470
what their causes. And whether I think that

535
00:20:14,470 --> 00:20:15,986
causes good or not.

536
00:20:16,718 --> 00:20:19,903
You cannot use violence to try to enforce

537
00:20:19,903 --> 00:20:22,929
to try to advance that cause. And so

538
00:20:22,929 --> 00:20:24,942
what the of the ones that

539
00:20:25,334 --> 00:20:26,289
the lawn brought up.

540
00:20:27,086 --> 00:20:28,999
You can think of them on the left,

541
00:20:29,158 --> 00:20:31,628
but what that means those a B, the

542
00:20:31,628 --> 00:20:33,461
stop oil. But what that means is there's

543
00:20:33,461 --> 00:20:34,439
people who think

544
00:20:35,149 --> 00:20:37,490
Yeah. I agree with that cause. I want

545
00:20:37,630 --> 00:20:39,630
us to use way less fossil fuels.

546
00:20:40,509 --> 00:20:42,210
I think blacks are being

547
00:20:43,164 --> 00:20:44,920
unjust treated by the police.

548
00:20:45,718 --> 00:20:48,432
And that that caused them justify I can

549
00:20:48,432 --> 00:20:51,246
use force or I'll look the other way

550
00:20:51,638 --> 00:20:52,536
or not

551
00:20:53,547 --> 00:20:54,047
severely

552
00:20:54,422 --> 00:20:56,830
criticized people when they take up arms

553
00:20:57,284 --> 00:20:59,193
in the name of that cause because I...

554
00:20:59,511 --> 00:21:01,181
I'm sympathetic to the cause.

555
00:21:01,993 --> 00:21:04,546
That's what is wrong, and it does... The

556
00:21:04,546 --> 00:21:06,642
the the idea that a cause can justify

557
00:21:07,339 --> 00:21:10,463
the use of force. You're on the side

558
00:21:10,463 --> 00:21:13,172
of the use of force and against civilization

559
00:21:13,172 --> 00:21:16,437
if you think that. And the fact is

560
00:21:16,437 --> 00:21:19,164
that across the political spectrum but it's really

561
00:21:19,164 --> 00:21:22,365
deeper than the political spectrum. It's too many

562
00:21:22,365 --> 00:21:25,964
people now think the way to resolve problems.

563
00:21:26,538 --> 00:21:29,714
Is to resort to force. And when it's

564
00:21:29,714 --> 00:21:31,936
people I don't like, I'll call them out

565
00:21:31,936 --> 00:21:34,001
and condemn them for using force. But when

566
00:21:34,001 --> 00:21:35,295
it's people I like

567
00:21:35,604 --> 00:21:38,002
And I think or on my side, then

568
00:21:38,162 --> 00:21:39,221
I'll be ap.

569
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,557
I'll look the other way. And you... I

570
00:21:42,557 --> 00:21:44,495
mean, 2 of the major things

571
00:21:44,888 --> 00:21:45,683
of the...

572
00:21:47,351 --> 00:21:48,782
That would be put on the right. You

573
00:21:48,782 --> 00:21:50,791
can think of what happened under the Trump

574
00:21:51,483 --> 00:21:51,983
administration

575
00:21:52,452 --> 00:21:55,237
and the reaction to it. And it's in

576
00:21:55,237 --> 00:21:55,475
both,

577
00:21:56,112 --> 00:21:58,282
you can see there's an internal

578
00:21:59,532 --> 00:22:00,940
disagreement that gets

579
00:22:01,378 --> 00:22:02,735
resolved in a certain way, and I think

580
00:22:02,735 --> 00:22:05,529
it gets resolved in being pro the use

581
00:22:05,529 --> 00:22:08,802
of force. So early in Trump's presidency, there

582
00:22:08,802 --> 00:22:09,680
were Charlottesville filled.

583
00:22:10,494 --> 00:22:10,994
And

584
00:22:11,373 --> 00:22:14,590
if you followed those... What happened in Charlottesville

585
00:22:15,129 --> 00:22:16,508
in real time

586
00:22:16,887 --> 00:22:17,387
chronological,

587
00:22:19,698 --> 00:22:22,660
the... This was... It went from Friday

588
00:22:23,192 --> 00:22:23,930
into Sunday,

589
00:22:24,462 --> 00:22:27,027
Trump gave various remarks on the Saturday.

590
00:22:27,654 --> 00:22:29,486
There's was a statement on the Sunday. Some

591
00:22:29,486 --> 00:22:30,442
remarks on the Monday,

592
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,036
remarks on the Tuesday.

593
00:22:32,514 --> 00:22:33,014
The

594
00:22:33,390 --> 00:22:34,368
the tendency

595
00:22:34,904 --> 00:22:36,736
today when people look back on it is

596
00:22:36,736 --> 00:22:38,508
to think what he said on the Tuesday.

597
00:22:39,147 --> 00:22:42,024
What's much more important is what happened on

598
00:22:42,184 --> 00:22:44,821
Friday and Saturday. On Friday,

599
00:22:45,300 --> 00:22:45,800
the

600
00:22:46,193 --> 00:22:48,983
there was... There was speculation that this unite

601
00:22:48,983 --> 00:22:52,034
the right movement was gonna march in Charlottesville.

602
00:22:52,411 --> 00:22:53,925
They had a permit for Saturday.

603
00:22:54,339 --> 00:22:57,159
But there was speculation they're gonna march in

604
00:22:57,220 --> 00:22:57,960
on Friday

605
00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:00,500
at a... In in an area where they

606
00:23:00,500 --> 00:23:02,019
don't need a permit, which was on the

607
00:23:02,099 --> 00:23:05,225
Uv University of Virginia this And I followed

608
00:23:05,225 --> 00:23:07,212
this... I meant live in Virginia, so it's

609
00:23:07,212 --> 00:23:08,483
part of the local news as well. It

610
00:23:08,483 --> 00:23:09,914
wasn't only in the National moves, so it

611
00:23:09,914 --> 00:23:12,159
was easy to follow it was going on.

612
00:23:12,318 --> 00:23:12,818
And

613
00:23:13,437 --> 00:23:14,736
there was that

614
00:23:16,154 --> 00:23:18,013
should have been seen as real

615
00:23:18,392 --> 00:23:19,691
intimidation when they're carrying

616
00:23:20,323 --> 00:23:22,948
torches and weapons and what they were chanting.

617
00:23:23,425 --> 00:23:26,367
But then it there there were people... They've

618
00:23:26,367 --> 00:23:27,980
marched to the Thomas Jefferson

619
00:23:28,609 --> 00:23:31,162
monument, and there were counter protesters there around

620
00:23:31,162 --> 00:23:31,721
the monument,

621
00:23:32,279 --> 00:23:35,231
and it ended up in in fights,

622
00:23:35,964 --> 00:23:37,958
That should've have been the... I mean, I'm

623
00:23:37,958 --> 00:23:40,749
against the whole conception of how people think

624
00:23:40,749 --> 00:23:42,265
about protest in the so called right to

625
00:23:42,265 --> 00:23:45,535
protest. But when it descended into violence, that

626
00:23:45,535 --> 00:23:47,703
should have been the end. They should have

627
00:23:47,703 --> 00:23:49,958
taken away the permit for the Saturday.

628
00:23:50,415 --> 00:23:53,287
They they eventually on Saturday the Declare state

629
00:23:53,287 --> 00:23:55,201
of emergency, but it should have been way

630
00:23:55,201 --> 00:23:57,695
earlier. You should have been on the the

631
00:23:57,695 --> 00:24:00,835
moment force is being used to try to

632
00:24:01,375 --> 00:24:03,934
resolve a political dispute And here, the disputes

633
00:24:03,934 --> 00:24:06,019
that p reported dispute was about,

634
00:24:07,928 --> 00:24:09,440
statues for the confederacy,

635
00:24:09,997 --> 00:24:12,242
Robert Lee statue was the paramount 1.

636
00:24:14,877 --> 00:24:17,134
That's what should have happened in every

637
00:24:17,911 --> 00:24:21,079
politician across the spectrum should have been the

638
00:24:21,358 --> 00:24:23,903
Yeah. This is way out of bounds. And

639
00:24:23,903 --> 00:24:26,049
then if you had the the people per

640
00:24:26,049 --> 00:24:28,833
trading it, their ideology is corrupt, and it's

641
00:24:28,833 --> 00:24:31,035
an ideology that will lead them to use

642
00:24:31,153 --> 00:24:33,001
force, there should have been

643
00:24:33,452 --> 00:24:33,952
outright

644
00:24:34,482 --> 00:24:36,701
condemnation of it, and there was some, but

645
00:24:36,701 --> 00:24:40,049
there wasn't from trump force and he eventually

646
00:24:40,049 --> 00:24:42,433
on Saturday weighed in, and it was a

647
00:24:42,433 --> 00:24:45,555
meal mailed statement and many Republicans.

648
00:24:46,184 --> 00:24:49,235
In his party called him out for. Rubio

649
00:24:49,453 --> 00:24:49,692
did,

650
00:24:51,526 --> 00:24:54,077
Lindsey Graham did, Paul Ryan did,

651
00:24:55,129 --> 00:24:57,206
that Romney did a host said, but this

652
00:24:57,206 --> 00:25:00,322
is way inadequate. You have to be as

653
00:25:00,322 --> 00:25:02,180
president way more

654
00:25:02,572 --> 00:25:05,272
condemn of what happened. And then, I mean,

655
00:25:05,430 --> 00:25:07,495
the the events on Saturday were way worse.

656
00:25:08,368 --> 00:25:11,489
And so this was a partly an internal

657
00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:14,595
battle in the party about, like, this is

658
00:25:14,595 --> 00:25:14,995
unacceptable.

659
00:25:15,474 --> 00:25:17,871
And now if you look at the Republican

660
00:25:17,871 --> 00:25:18,770
party, it's

661
00:25:19,164 --> 00:25:21,875
Oh, no. What to don't blame Trump for

662
00:25:21,875 --> 00:25:24,426
what anything he did in charlotte sphere. There's

663
00:25:24,426 --> 00:25:27,457
nothing to criticize Joe Biden making it all

664
00:25:27,457 --> 00:25:29,647
up. It's a And that is

665
00:25:30,584 --> 00:25:31,084
a

666
00:25:31,861 --> 00:25:34,175
sort of looking the other way in the

667
00:25:34,175 --> 00:25:36,271
use of force. And

668
00:25:37,143 --> 00:25:38,681
that people rightly

669
00:25:39,059 --> 00:25:41,075
treated because this was early in the prem

670
00:25:41,294 --> 00:25:41,794
presidency.

671
00:25:42,570 --> 00:25:44,646
Is this his attitude towards force?

672
00:25:46,172 --> 00:25:48,554
And and the use of force, and what

673
00:25:48,554 --> 00:25:51,729
happened on January sixth had similar things. Again,

674
00:25:51,967 --> 00:25:52,974
you had the

675
00:25:53,653 --> 00:25:55,190
outright use of force

676
00:25:55,567 --> 00:25:56,067
by

677
00:25:56,445 --> 00:25:57,881
supporters of Trump.

678
00:25:59,397 --> 00:25:59,897
And

679
00:26:00,369 --> 00:26:01,587
he for hours

680
00:26:01,964 --> 00:26:05,234
couldn't come out when... It's foot, like, we're

681
00:26:05,234 --> 00:26:08,824
watching this on Tv. The people attacking the

682
00:26:08,824 --> 00:26:09,961
police on the capital

683
00:26:10,670 --> 00:26:12,756
bashing in indoors and windows.

684
00:26:13,208 --> 00:26:14,342
So... And

685
00:26:14,714 --> 00:26:17,831
for hours, he can't get on Tv

686
00:26:18,299 --> 00:26:20,689
and call it off. And when he eventually

687
00:26:20,689 --> 00:26:21,189
has

688
00:26:21,645 --> 00:26:24,275
a press conference about it. It's...

689
00:26:25,549 --> 00:26:27,643
Oh, yeah. This election was stolen

690
00:26:28,114 --> 00:26:30,266
And I... Sort of I understand why you're

691
00:26:30,266 --> 00:26:32,259
fighting, but you can't do this and we're

692
00:26:32,259 --> 00:26:33,396
supposed to be peaceful

693
00:26:33,773 --> 00:26:35,766
and law order supposed to...

694
00:26:36,578 --> 00:26:37,774
But you're very good people,

695
00:26:38,492 --> 00:26:40,965
but you should go home that it was

696
00:26:40,965 --> 00:26:43,916
so again, if if 1 thinks that in

697
00:26:43,916 --> 00:26:45,931
comparison to the reaction to the assassin

698
00:26:46,244 --> 00:26:49,436
they attempted assassination on Trump, It was nothing

699
00:26:49,436 --> 00:26:52,070
like that condemnation of the use of force.

700
00:26:52,469 --> 00:26:55,139
And if you don't do that, you're... Whatever

701
00:26:55,198 --> 00:26:56,736
you say, you're

702
00:26:57,114 --> 00:26:58,093
actually helping

703
00:26:59,269 --> 00:27:01,824
that making... So the... I think along, you

704
00:27:01,824 --> 00:27:03,820
put it as normalizing the use of force.

705
00:27:04,154 --> 00:27:07,510
To settle political disputes. You're actually normalizing that,

706
00:27:07,669 --> 00:27:09,826
And that's part of what it means that

707
00:27:09,826 --> 00:27:10,965
we're in a

708
00:27:12,877 --> 00:27:15,594
environment. Like, my reaction when I heard about

709
00:27:15,594 --> 00:27:19,199
the attempted assassination is, unfortunately. Like it's not

710
00:27:19,199 --> 00:27:21,101
good to have this reaction, But it was,

711
00:27:21,339 --> 00:27:24,033
unfortunately, I don't find it that surprising because

712
00:27:24,033 --> 00:27:27,641
the use of force, it's to settle political

713
00:27:28,252 --> 00:27:32,063
disputes is has become much more normalized.

714
00:27:32,460 --> 00:27:35,423
And in that environment, you should expect. It's

715
00:27:35,423 --> 00:27:37,740
it's not to say this particular incident is

716
00:27:37,740 --> 00:27:39,818
1 of those, but you should just expect

717
00:27:39,818 --> 00:27:41,976
that force will be resorted to more often.

718
00:27:43,829 --> 00:27:45,667
I just wanna chime in with something, Ben,

719
00:27:45,907 --> 00:27:47,745
and we'll will get... We'll dig into this

720
00:27:47,745 --> 00:27:49,263
a bit more 2 2 quick things that

721
00:27:49,343 --> 00:27:50,622
I see some questions have come in, and

722
00:27:50,622 --> 00:27:52,220
we we'll definitely try to take as many

723
00:27:52,220 --> 00:27:54,474
questions as they're are. So 1 question is

724
00:27:54,474 --> 00:27:54,974
about

725
00:27:55,355 --> 00:27:57,515
advice on voting, I think. And I I

726
00:27:57,515 --> 00:27:59,835
just wanna make a general comment about how

727
00:27:59,835 --> 00:28:00,894
we think of our

728
00:28:01,275 --> 00:28:04,247
relationship to the political scene as an organization

729
00:28:04,247 --> 00:28:05,945
that is a 05:01 c 3

730
00:28:06,404 --> 00:28:08,502
nonprofit. So the issue is a non profit

731
00:28:08,801 --> 00:28:11,613
educational philosophical organization. Our our purpose today and

732
00:28:11,613 --> 00:28:13,472
it always is to educate people

733
00:28:14,011 --> 00:28:15,929
about In rand ideas and their application. And

734
00:28:15,929 --> 00:28:18,966
when we talk about politics and particularly during

735
00:28:18,966 --> 00:28:21,373
the election season, our our goal and it's

736
00:28:21,373 --> 00:28:23,122
not part of our mission. It's not something

737
00:28:23,122 --> 00:28:24,553
we ever try to do is our goal

738
00:28:24,553 --> 00:28:26,303
is not to steer you towards a particular

739
00:28:26,303 --> 00:28:28,927
candidate. We don't advocate for candidates. We don't

740
00:28:28,927 --> 00:28:29,802
advocate against candidates.

741
00:28:31,007 --> 00:28:33,704
Oral legislation. So what your... What we're trying

742
00:28:33,704 --> 00:28:35,077
to do is to bring out

743
00:28:35,608 --> 00:28:38,876
the philosophical moral dimensions of what is going

744
00:28:38,876 --> 00:28:40,544
on in the culture. And what's important to

745
00:28:40,544 --> 00:28:43,007
think about. And in that sense, that fits

746
00:28:43,007 --> 00:28:45,469
our agenda as an organization to help you

747
00:28:45,469 --> 00:28:46,605
think philosophically

748
00:28:47,154 --> 00:28:49,307
about what some of the most important events

749
00:28:49,307 --> 00:28:51,939
in the culture are. So IIII think for

750
00:28:51,939 --> 00:28:54,173
the person asking about advice on voting. I

751
00:28:54,252 --> 00:28:55,608
I I'm not gonna be able to answer

752
00:28:55,608 --> 00:28:57,539
that, and that's not a question. That we

753
00:28:57,539 --> 00:28:59,137
are aiming to answer here.

754
00:28:59,776 --> 00:29:01,374
That's 1 point I wanna raise. I think

755
00:29:01,374 --> 00:29:03,132
the other point... And I think this will

756
00:29:03,132 --> 00:29:04,990
come out as we talk more about

757
00:29:05,303 --> 00:29:08,247
the kinda culture that has normalized political violence.

758
00:29:08,406 --> 00:29:09,861
So just the use of violence

759
00:29:10,713 --> 00:29:11,907
to solve this disagreements,

760
00:29:13,994 --> 00:29:15,769
I'm curious from... Just to make

761
00:29:16,226 --> 00:29:18,879
extra extra clear, nothing that we're saying here

762
00:29:19,096 --> 00:29:20,792
should be taken to mean that

763
00:29:21,902 --> 00:29:23,737
Trump had it coming. I I don't think

764
00:29:23,737 --> 00:29:25,172
that's true. I don't think you should look

765
00:29:25,172 --> 00:29:26,528
at him. Because I think he's a victim.

766
00:29:26,688 --> 00:29:29,160
He... I don't think anyone would want. I

767
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:30,676
certainly don't want harm to come to him.

768
00:29:31,249 --> 00:29:34,197
Things important to understand that is not...

769
00:29:35,871 --> 00:29:38,660
The the attempted assassination is not something that

770
00:29:38,660 --> 00:29:40,742
things he deserved, not not even by a

771
00:29:40,742 --> 00:29:43,048
mile. Right? So that's important to understand. At

772
00:29:43,048 --> 00:29:44,798
the same time, it's important to be able

773
00:29:44,798 --> 00:29:47,342
to evaluate him as a political figure. And

774
00:29:47,342 --> 00:29:49,109
that's part of what we're saying that you're

775
00:29:49,109 --> 00:29:51,830
thinking about Charlottesville his reaction to that. You'd

776
00:29:51,830 --> 00:29:54,150
thinking about January 6 and his reaction and

777
00:29:54,150 --> 00:29:55,990
there's still more to say about those...

778
00:29:57,121 --> 00:29:59,268
And those things need to be evaluated and

779
00:29:59,268 --> 00:30:02,392
criticized, even as he's recovering from this attempted

780
00:30:02,686 --> 00:30:05,008
assassination, and even as I don't wish I

781
00:30:05,008 --> 00:30:06,758
certainly don't wanna see any more of this

782
00:30:06,758 --> 00:30:08,508
kind of behavior from anybody in the culture.

783
00:30:08,667 --> 00:30:10,259
So this... But both of those things can

784
00:30:10,259 --> 00:30:12,183
be true at the same time, and and

785
00:30:12,183 --> 00:30:14,089
it's important And I I wish I didn't

786
00:30:14,089 --> 00:30:15,281
have to say this, but I think it's

787
00:30:15,281 --> 00:30:16,869
important that it has to be said because

788
00:30:16,869 --> 00:30:19,173
the way people process this as we indicated

789
00:30:19,173 --> 00:30:19,491
earlier,

790
00:30:20,365 --> 00:30:20,420
and

791
00:30:21,500 --> 00:30:23,580
criticizing Trump means you're on the side of

792
00:30:23,580 --> 00:30:25,340
the assassin. Or if you're,

793
00:30:26,140 --> 00:30:28,779
for Trump then you think he can't do

794
00:30:28,779 --> 00:30:30,790
wrong, and that's none of that is true.

795
00:30:31,030 --> 00:30:32,864
This not the right way to think about

796
00:30:32,864 --> 00:30:33,263
these issues.

797
00:30:34,141 --> 00:30:35,975
Alright. So let's let's go back to the

798
00:30:35,975 --> 00:30:37,889
the thread that you are developing, Ben, You...

799
00:30:38,049 --> 00:30:39,006
Do you wanna chime in here?

800
00:30:39,659 --> 00:30:40,859
I wanted to come back to On encore

801
00:30:40,859 --> 00:30:42,700
and ask him a bit about what he

802
00:30:42,700 --> 00:30:43,519
just said

803
00:30:44,059 --> 00:30:44,299
about,

804
00:30:44,859 --> 00:30:45,659
Trump and,

805
00:30:46,299 --> 00:30:47,599
violence on the right

806
00:30:48,059 --> 00:30:50,013
because... Yeah. I think well the

807
00:30:50,627 --> 00:30:52,299
reaction of summon in our audience to... You're

808
00:30:52,299 --> 00:30:54,369
having said that would be to say why

809
00:30:54,369 --> 00:30:56,359
why bring this up when he's suddenly the

810
00:30:56,359 --> 00:30:56,677
victim.

811
00:30:57,806 --> 00:30:59,954
If it's if it's not that you think

812
00:30:59,954 --> 00:31:01,067
he had it coming,

813
00:31:01,863 --> 00:31:03,295
why do you think it's important to point

814
00:31:03,295 --> 00:31:04,661
this out? Why do you think it important

815
00:31:04,661 --> 00:31:05,931
to point out. And this is something that

816
00:31:05,931 --> 00:31:07,280
we talked about before we had the episode

817
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,185
Are we going to discuss this or not,

818
00:31:09,662 --> 00:31:10,162
and

819
00:31:11,170 --> 00:31:13,130
we decided it was very important to it's

820
00:31:13,646 --> 00:31:16,611
comment on ways in which Trump has

821
00:31:18,497 --> 00:31:18,997
encouraged

822
00:31:20,166 --> 00:31:21,255
or at least not

823
00:31:21,693 --> 00:31:23,128
discouraged this climate of violence,

824
00:31:23,925 --> 00:31:25,679
why is it so important to talk about

825
00:31:25,679 --> 00:31:26,158
this now?

826
00:31:27,593 --> 00:31:28,810
Because the the basic

827
00:31:29,506 --> 00:31:31,835
issue... To go back to the start of

828
00:31:31,835 --> 00:31:33,691
the what we were talking about is

829
00:31:34,308 --> 00:31:36,324
are you against and

830
00:31:37,594 --> 00:31:38,733
on principle

831
00:31:39,591 --> 00:31:40,650
and consistently,

832
00:31:41,029 --> 00:31:43,766
Are you against the use of violence

833
00:31:44,478 --> 00:31:44,978
and

834
00:31:45,668 --> 00:31:46,168
and

835
00:31:46,859 --> 00:31:49,319
when many of these are violating that... That's

836
00:31:49,319 --> 00:31:49,819
a

837
00:31:50,192 --> 00:31:52,944
incredible and and often swift use of force

838
00:31:53,223 --> 00:31:55,688
but more broadly, are you against the use

839
00:31:55,688 --> 00:31:56,426
of force

840
00:31:56,881 --> 00:31:58,414
to settle political

841
00:31:58,869 --> 00:31:59,266
disagreements.

842
00:32:00,061 --> 00:32:02,867
And if you are you have to be

843
00:32:03,338 --> 00:32:04,557
across the board

844
00:32:05,015 --> 00:32:05,994
on principle

845
00:32:06,611 --> 00:32:07,111
and

846
00:32:07,729 --> 00:32:11,182
anytime you see the use of force

847
00:32:12,132 --> 00:32:15,147
even if it's criticized, if it's not viewed

848
00:32:15,147 --> 00:32:16,758
as out of bounds

849
00:32:17,607 --> 00:32:20,329
as this is the descent

850
00:32:21,359 --> 00:32:21,859
from

851
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:23,859
civilization to barb,

852
00:32:24,399 --> 00:32:26,879
then you're not actually against it. It's a...

853
00:32:27,279 --> 00:32:28,819
The issue requires

854
00:32:29,213 --> 00:32:31,142
a strong and principled

855
00:32:31,515 --> 00:32:31,832
stand.

856
00:32:32,546 --> 00:32:33,046
And

857
00:32:33,737 --> 00:32:36,277
anytime you see that that's not happening,

858
00:32:36,768 --> 00:32:39,784
you have to be deeply concerned. And so

859
00:32:39,943 --> 00:32:42,506
I have the same or or, like, essentially

860
00:32:42,562 --> 00:32:43,594
the same view.

861
00:32:44,324 --> 00:32:45,224
Of Charlottesville

862
00:32:45,763 --> 00:32:47,441
and of the B m riots,

863
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,259
that the way in which

864
00:32:50,638 --> 00:32:53,809
leading figures, so you can think of of

865
00:32:54,406 --> 00:32:54,565
like,

866
00:32:55,838 --> 00:32:56,338
pro

867
00:32:56,713 --> 00:32:58,008
prominent voices

868
00:32:59,020 --> 00:33:00,133
in our culture,

869
00:33:01,024 --> 00:33:01,524
gave

870
00:33:01,983 --> 00:33:03,122
sanction and harbor

871
00:33:03,661 --> 00:33:07,038
after the fact. So when they can see

872
00:33:07,177 --> 00:33:09,015
this is descended into Riots,

873
00:33:09,509 --> 00:33:11,344
This is a descended into force.

874
00:33:12,380 --> 00:33:15,353
They make excuses, they downplay

875
00:33:15,730 --> 00:33:15,970
it.

876
00:33:16,608 --> 00:33:18,362
If you remember for the B of what

877
00:33:18,522 --> 00:33:19,022
Seattle

878
00:33:19,414 --> 00:33:21,252
for... I don't know how many weeks it

879
00:33:21,252 --> 00:33:21,752
was

880
00:33:22,531 --> 00:33:26,287
anarchy key in parts of the downtown, a

881
00:33:26,287 --> 00:33:28,705
police station taken over. And

882
00:33:29,018 --> 00:33:30,474
the lack of

883
00:33:30,929 --> 00:33:34,911
outright and forceful criticism of them. From across

884
00:33:34,911 --> 00:33:36,287
the political spectrum

885
00:33:36,902 --> 00:33:38,611
was very noticeable.

886
00:33:39,065 --> 00:33:40,974
And that and anyone who views themselves as

887
00:33:40,974 --> 00:33:43,145
is I'm really on the side of

888
00:33:43,599 --> 00:33:44,099
civilization

889
00:33:45,208 --> 00:33:47,145
not the the barb.

890
00:33:48,002 --> 00:33:48,502
It

891
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,116
should've have disturb you, and it doesn't matter

892
00:33:51,116 --> 00:33:52,872
if you're a democrat and it's... You think

893
00:33:52,872 --> 00:33:55,144
your party's doing it. It's should have deeply

894
00:33:55,845 --> 00:33:57,684
disturbed you. And I think the same is

895
00:33:57,684 --> 00:34:00,164
true for on the... Thinking of it as

896
00:34:00,164 --> 00:34:02,904
political sides of Charlottesville or January

897
00:34:03,205 --> 00:34:05,365
6 And if you don't have that view

898
00:34:05,365 --> 00:34:07,135
if you can't get it

899
00:34:07,905 --> 00:34:10,628
that it doesn't matter what the cause is

900
00:34:10,684 --> 00:34:12,764
and whether I have sympathy to it. When

901
00:34:12,764 --> 00:34:15,473
they're using force to try to advance the

902
00:34:15,473 --> 00:34:18,284
cause, I have to be a hundred percent

903
00:34:18,661 --> 00:34:19,161
forcefully

904
00:34:19,538 --> 00:34:20,309
against it

905
00:34:21,063 --> 00:34:22,808
if you're not doing that, then you're not

906
00:34:22,808 --> 00:34:24,633
actually against the use of force, and that's...

907
00:34:24,871 --> 00:34:26,219
It's a really important issue.

908
00:34:30,767 --> 00:34:32,858
So I think 1 of the other

909
00:34:33,313 --> 00:34:35,542
reasons that we wanted to talk about this

910
00:34:35,542 --> 00:34:36,519
today is

911
00:34:37,864 --> 00:34:40,668
not just because of the fact that the

912
00:34:41,758 --> 00:34:44,699
this assassination attempt may have been another example

913
00:34:44,699 --> 00:34:45,891
of this rising trend,

914
00:34:46,545 --> 00:34:48,385
of political violence that we've just been talking

915
00:34:48,385 --> 00:34:51,684
about. But because of the the philosophical nature

916
00:34:51,744 --> 00:34:53,125
of what is

917
00:34:53,505 --> 00:34:54,965
responsible for that trend

918
00:34:55,438 --> 00:34:55,938
And

919
00:34:56,475 --> 00:34:57,693
the way you can see

920
00:34:58,389 --> 00:35:01,340
the the the philosophical nature of the reaction

921
00:35:01,340 --> 00:35:03,653
to it. And what's, I think, common to

922
00:35:03,653 --> 00:35:04,552
both of those

923
00:35:05,104 --> 00:35:07,748
is that a certain kind of political tribalism.

924
00:35:08,995 --> 00:35:09,972
And we

925
00:35:10,505 --> 00:35:12,355
we can talk about how that

926
00:35:12,728 --> 00:35:13,625
has generated,

927
00:35:14,396 --> 00:35:16,025
this climate, how it's

928
00:35:16,639 --> 00:35:18,947
characteristic of the response to it. But maybe

929
00:35:18,947 --> 00:35:20,619
before we do that, we should also say

930
00:35:20,619 --> 00:35:22,344
a little something, but what we mean, is

931
00:35:22,783 --> 00:35:25,038
by political tribalism any elon, you've written

932
00:35:25,416 --> 00:35:27,809
a fair amount about this. Before we talk

933
00:35:27,809 --> 00:35:29,347
about how it relates to the latest

934
00:35:29,818 --> 00:35:31,889
news item. Can you lay that out for

935
00:35:31,889 --> 00:35:33,800
us what we are talking about here?

936
00:35:35,870 --> 00:35:38,021
My view of tribalism is informed by...

937
00:35:38,992 --> 00:35:39,970
Soft analysis

938
00:35:40,347 --> 00:35:41,861
of tribalism and I... Because I agree with

939
00:35:41,861 --> 00:35:44,433
her. I think she's she's identified their essential

940
00:35:44,651 --> 00:35:47,559
nature of that in in the Contemporary world

941
00:35:48,019 --> 00:35:49,940
achieved that decades ago. Your you saw this

942
00:35:49,940 --> 00:35:50,260
coming,

943
00:35:50,900 --> 00:35:52,679
in a, in, Essays

944
00:35:53,460 --> 00:35:54,099
many years ago,

945
00:35:54,914 --> 00:35:57,391
I think an important feature of tribalism is

946
00:35:57,391 --> 00:35:58,769
that it's it's the sub...

947
00:35:59,228 --> 00:35:59,968
Of reason

948
00:36:01,225 --> 00:36:01,725
to

949
00:36:02,278 --> 00:36:04,112
commitment to the group. It's not what's true.

950
00:36:04,351 --> 00:36:05,569
It's what is

951
00:36:05,946 --> 00:36:08,019
my group telling me to do. And it's

952
00:36:08,019 --> 00:36:09,694
it's not a concern with truth. It's not

953
00:36:09,694 --> 00:36:10,731
a concern with facts,

954
00:36:11,542 --> 00:36:12,359
concerned with,

955
00:36:12,970 --> 00:36:15,668
aligning yourself conforming to what you think your

956
00:36:15,668 --> 00:36:16,168
group

957
00:36:17,255 --> 00:36:19,081
believes. And you're you're taking your cues from,

958
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,248
typically, it's the group, but that often just

959
00:36:21,248 --> 00:36:22,526
means the leaders of the group.

960
00:36:23,724 --> 00:36:25,263
What this looks like is

961
00:36:25,961 --> 00:36:28,213
being driven by emotions. You you belong or

962
00:36:28,213 --> 00:36:30,450
you don't belong? They're are insiders versus outsiders?

963
00:36:30,690 --> 00:36:32,527
Who do we hate? Who's who do we

964
00:36:32,527 --> 00:36:33,885
keep? Who do we shu?

965
00:36:34,460 --> 00:36:36,139
And who are the people who are our

966
00:36:36,139 --> 00:36:37,980
enemies and making everything bad for us? It

967
00:36:37,980 --> 00:36:39,039
really puts you

968
00:36:39,579 --> 00:36:40,539
in a mind frame,

969
00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:43,420
the more fully it takes over someone's mind.

970
00:36:44,153 --> 00:36:47,574
At being driven by emotions and not your

971
00:36:47,574 --> 00:36:50,517
thought, not the concern with facts and observation.

972
00:36:51,489 --> 00:36:52,849
And I think some of the ways in

973
00:36:52,849 --> 00:36:53,750
which this manifest

974
00:36:54,449 --> 00:36:57,570
is it's all over our political space. So

975
00:36:57,570 --> 00:36:59,429
think about the way people talk about

976
00:36:59,743 --> 00:37:01,803
we have to own the lives, or we're

977
00:37:01,803 --> 00:37:04,181
gonna show the Republicans are wrong about some

978
00:37:04,181 --> 00:37:05,845
point in in a in a Gotcha kind

979
00:37:05,845 --> 00:37:07,010
of way and in the

980
00:37:07,848 --> 00:37:09,846
that's... And people talk about that as point

981
00:37:09,846 --> 00:37:11,763
scoring it. And that's 1 way to look

982
00:37:11,763 --> 00:37:14,480
at it, but more deeply, it's it's about...

983
00:37:14,733 --> 00:37:17,197
Exposing yourself as someone who's very loyal to

984
00:37:17,197 --> 00:37:19,206
the tribe and is showing the other tribe

985
00:37:19,262 --> 00:37:21,670
as inferior as is as

986
00:37:22,298 --> 00:37:24,691
not worthy. And and that's an important part

987
00:37:24,691 --> 00:37:27,504
of the dynamic in tribalism that it's continually

988
00:37:27,882 --> 00:37:30,216
an attempt to reinforce your standing

989
00:37:30,594 --> 00:37:31,710
versus some other group.

990
00:37:32,921 --> 00:37:34,834
And the psychological dimensions is this we we

991
00:37:34,834 --> 00:37:36,746
might get into, But it's is really important

992
00:37:36,746 --> 00:37:38,601
to see that's driven by that

993
00:37:39,058 --> 00:37:39,989
dynamic of

994
00:37:40,588 --> 00:37:44,016
group loyalty over truth, group loyalty over facts,

995
00:37:44,255 --> 00:37:46,169
and your own independent judgment.

996
00:37:47,046 --> 00:37:48,721
This 1 other feature of this, which it's

997
00:37:48,721 --> 00:37:51,390
already come up in in 1 respect is

998
00:37:52,725 --> 00:37:55,119
it's okay if our guide does it, but

999
00:37:55,119 --> 00:37:56,955
it's not okay if they're... If they do

1000
00:37:56,955 --> 00:37:59,039
it. So we think about the B protests

1001
00:37:59,039 --> 00:38:01,027
and the reactions to it. So I think

1002
00:38:01,027 --> 00:38:03,175
there were people who are sympathetic to the

1003
00:38:03,175 --> 00:38:05,775
agenda of the black lives matter movement, so

1004
00:38:05,974 --> 00:38:07,646
who are part in part of the way

1005
00:38:07,646 --> 00:38:08,863
they process is

1006
00:38:09,796 --> 00:38:12,902
we're gonna downplay the wrong of rioting and

1007
00:38:12,902 --> 00:38:15,887
looting and destroying property and and d people's

1008
00:38:16,262 --> 00:38:16,762
businesses.

1009
00:38:17,616 --> 00:38:18,253
And that's...

1010
00:38:19,129 --> 00:38:21,438
But but when January 6 happens some months

1011
00:38:21,438 --> 00:38:23,133
later, it was how

1012
00:38:24,001 --> 00:38:26,229
I'm uncomfortable it was that the other side

1013
00:38:26,229 --> 00:38:27,206
was doing something

1014
00:38:27,581 --> 00:38:29,014
eco at least at least as bad, if

1015
00:38:29,014 --> 00:38:31,571
not worse. And so it's okay if our

1016
00:38:31,571 --> 00:38:32,998
side does it, but not if their side

1017
00:38:32,998 --> 00:38:34,820
doesn't. That this applies not just to the

1018
00:38:34,820 --> 00:38:37,198
kind of violence we've been talking about, it

1019
00:38:37,198 --> 00:38:38,015
applies to

1020
00:38:38,405 --> 00:38:40,565
double standards across the board both to political

1021
00:38:40,565 --> 00:38:41,065
leaders

1022
00:38:41,525 --> 00:38:41,844
and,

1023
00:38:42,724 --> 00:38:44,405
party membership and things like that. So it's

1024
00:38:44,405 --> 00:38:45,065
it's this

1025
00:38:45,445 --> 00:38:48,255
inherent double standard that you see 1 way

1026
00:38:48,255 --> 00:38:49,786
to understand it is is

1027
00:38:50,158 --> 00:38:52,062
commitment to your tribe and putting it above

1028
00:38:52,062 --> 00:38:53,728
what's important what's true and good.

1029
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,202
And I think the final thing I'll say...

1030
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,186
And I'm sure there's more to to elaborate

1031
00:38:58,186 --> 00:39:00,251
here, and I'm interested didn't what else do

1032
00:39:00,251 --> 00:39:02,473
you guys wanna add to this. The final

1033
00:39:02,473 --> 00:39:04,637
thing I'll say is that I'll because this

1034
00:39:04,637 --> 00:39:05,934
is a a mindset

1035
00:39:06,630 --> 00:39:07,428
that puts you...

1036
00:39:08,385 --> 00:39:10,539
That pushes you to behave on the basis

1037
00:39:10,539 --> 00:39:13,091
of your emotions and reactions, rather than your

1038
00:39:13,091 --> 00:39:13,410
judgment,

1039
00:39:14,775 --> 00:39:16,681
It puts you... A disconnects you from the

1040
00:39:16,681 --> 00:39:17,181
possibility

1041
00:39:18,109 --> 00:39:19,721
of resolving disputes

1042
00:39:20,173 --> 00:39:22,396
in a civilized way, which means through persuasion.

1043
00:39:22,809 --> 00:39:25,206
Reasoning through conversation and trying to get other

1044
00:39:25,206 --> 00:39:27,203
the people to see the facts as you

1045
00:39:27,203 --> 00:39:29,041
see them at the process as you see.

1046
00:39:29,201 --> 00:39:29,860
And so

1047
00:39:30,493 --> 00:39:32,885
the the point of tribalism is that you

1048
00:39:32,885 --> 00:39:35,118
can't engage with the outside people, people not

1049
00:39:35,118 --> 00:39:36,952
in your group, maybe even people in your

1050
00:39:36,952 --> 00:39:38,945
group, you can't resolve disputes,

1051
00:39:39,598 --> 00:39:42,549
except through force because that's the only alternative

1052
00:39:42,549 --> 00:39:45,341
to persuasion. So there's there's a dynamic that

1053
00:39:45,341 --> 00:39:48,452
pushes tribalism more and more towards that kind

1054
00:39:48,452 --> 00:39:50,697
of It's not really a conflict resolution but.

1055
00:39:50,936 --> 00:39:53,804
It... That's the means by which conflicts are

1056
00:39:53,804 --> 00:39:56,512
attempted to be resolved. So I think those

1057
00:39:56,512 --> 00:39:59,707
are important features of what... Tribalism is and

1058
00:39:59,707 --> 00:40:01,849
how manifests and some of the ways it

1059
00:40:01,849 --> 00:40:03,038
should connects to this debate.

1060
00:40:04,863 --> 00:40:07,342
The this last is something... That I wanted

1061
00:40:07,342 --> 00:40:09,518
to ask On encore about in particular about

1062
00:40:10,535 --> 00:40:11,833
the connection between

1063
00:40:12,211 --> 00:40:14,627
tribalism as we've just characterized it and

1064
00:40:15,657 --> 00:40:16,773
not just failing to,

1065
00:40:18,208 --> 00:40:18,708
resolve

1066
00:40:19,085 --> 00:40:20,860
disputes through persuasion, but

1067
00:40:21,237 --> 00:40:23,150
the connection between tribalism and violence,

1068
00:40:23,882 --> 00:40:25,635
of the sort we've been seeing more of,

1069
00:40:26,272 --> 00:40:28,503
On encore... Can you elaborate on that?

1070
00:40:31,544 --> 00:40:33,932
Yeah. Well, 1 aspect of what Elon was

1071
00:40:33,932 --> 00:40:36,821
highlighting, which is very important is

1072
00:40:37,356 --> 00:40:37,674
the...

1073
00:40:39,282 --> 00:40:41,296
If 1 understands tribalism

1074
00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:43,287
as it's

1075
00:40:43,664 --> 00:40:44,779
devoid of ideas,

1076
00:40:45,989 --> 00:40:48,302
that's why you can't persuade. What you can

1077
00:40:48,302 --> 00:40:51,274
persuade someone is the truth of some idea

1078
00:40:51,412 --> 00:40:53,805
or some principle. You have arguments that you're

1079
00:40:53,805 --> 00:40:55,161
gonna establish its truth.

1080
00:40:55,733 --> 00:40:59,573
The less and less 1 views one's own

1081
00:41:00,346 --> 00:41:03,470
site like that we have ideas and principles,

1082
00:41:04,019 --> 00:41:04,759
and arguments,

1083
00:41:05,456 --> 00:41:06,594
the the

1084
00:41:06,972 --> 00:41:07,472
necessary

1085
00:41:08,648 --> 00:41:09,686
consequence of that is,

1086
00:41:11,202 --> 00:41:13,934
we can't persuade other people of these.

1087
00:41:14,494 --> 00:41:17,214
The... There's... That's not how we arrived at

1088
00:41:17,214 --> 00:41:19,155
them where... It's not through arguments.

1089
00:41:19,694 --> 00:41:22,768
It's just... Well, this happens to be our

1090
00:41:23,142 --> 00:41:26,082
tradition, sometimes they we put in quotes culture,

1091
00:41:26,241 --> 00:41:28,012
but they don't mean culture is a culture

1092
00:41:28,068 --> 00:41:30,373
of ideas and values. They mean what we've

1093
00:41:30,373 --> 00:41:32,695
done in the past, and we're gonna repeat

1094
00:41:32,695 --> 00:41:34,445
these things and these out... So part of

1095
00:41:34,445 --> 00:41:38,027
what outsiders means is they just don't act,

1096
00:41:38,345 --> 00:41:40,096
and they don't sound, like,

1097
00:41:41,222 --> 00:41:43,124
we do. They're very different.

1098
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,135
We have to fear them. We can't understand

1099
00:41:46,135 --> 00:41:47,855
them. We can't really commute

1100
00:41:48,534 --> 00:41:50,931
communicate with them. And we certainly can't persuade

1101
00:41:50,931 --> 00:41:52,230
them of

1102
00:41:53,008 --> 00:41:56,340
that of what's good or of what is

1103
00:41:56,460 --> 00:42:00,140
true because that's not how we're functioning. So

1104
00:42:00,140 --> 00:42:01,840
that more and more person

1105
00:42:03,180 --> 00:42:05,440
descends from thinking of themselves

1106
00:42:06,074 --> 00:42:08,335
as I have reasons and I have ideas

1107
00:42:09,114 --> 00:42:11,355
for what I hold and I can explain

1108
00:42:11,355 --> 00:42:12,155
those to other people,

1109
00:42:12,875 --> 00:42:14,795
the more they don't see themselves like that

1110
00:42:14,795 --> 00:42:16,872
is the cord... They don't see other people

1111
00:42:16,872 --> 00:42:19,172
functioning like that. And then it's, like, how

1112
00:42:19,172 --> 00:42:20,227
do you resolve

1113
00:42:20,679 --> 00:42:22,447
disputes? And it's only

1114
00:42:22,820 --> 00:42:25,554
the what... It's my gang that's going to

1115
00:42:25,554 --> 00:42:27,875
win or you're game that's gonna win. There

1116
00:42:27,875 --> 00:42:28,934
there's there's no

1117
00:42:29,315 --> 00:42:30,434
resolution of who's right.

1118
00:42:31,328 --> 00:42:33,960
It's just is who's gonna hold the power.

1119
00:42:34,119 --> 00:42:37,230
So everything becomes a power struggle. And part

1120
00:42:37,230 --> 00:42:39,862
of what our so called culture wars are.

1121
00:42:40,994 --> 00:42:44,775
Today is not disputes about ideas. It's just

1122
00:42:44,835 --> 00:42:48,295
disputes about who who's gonna get control of

1123
00:42:49,406 --> 00:42:51,878
congress or of the presidency so that they

1124
00:42:51,878 --> 00:42:53,016
can ram their

1125
00:42:54,030 --> 00:42:57,082
positions down everybody else's throat. You can't convince

1126
00:42:57,140 --> 00:43:00,431
anybody And the more that that's the atmosphere,

1127
00:43:00,911 --> 00:43:02,690
the more it's you're in a tribal

1128
00:43:03,788 --> 00:43:05,007
atmosphere. And

1129
00:43:05,387 --> 00:43:05,887
the

1130
00:43:06,505 --> 00:43:07,280
talking about

1131
00:43:09,228 --> 00:43:10,047
iron iran's

1132
00:43:10,978 --> 00:43:11,478
unique

1133
00:43:11,933 --> 00:43:13,467
understanding of tribalism,

1134
00:43:15,610 --> 00:43:16,110
She

1135
00:43:16,487 --> 00:43:19,358
talked often. It's a it's a recurring theme

1136
00:43:19,358 --> 00:43:22,389
in her writings of how what she called

1137
00:43:22,389 --> 00:43:23,505
a mixed economy.

1138
00:43:23,919 --> 00:43:26,388
So when a an economy is moving away

1139
00:43:26,388 --> 00:43:27,206
from freedom

1140
00:43:27,582 --> 00:43:31,506
and towards more state, which means more government

1141
00:43:31,882 --> 00:43:35,878
control. So over the aspects of an individual's

1142
00:43:35,878 --> 00:43:39,777
lives over their education, their health care of

1143
00:43:39,777 --> 00:43:41,608
who they can hire and who they can

1144
00:43:41,608 --> 00:43:41,927
fire,

1145
00:43:42,419 --> 00:43:43,637
of their retirement.

1146
00:43:44,573 --> 00:43:46,088
I mean, if you think of all the

1147
00:43:46,088 --> 00:43:47,125
government programs,

1148
00:43:47,603 --> 00:43:48,503
controls and

1149
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:49,119
agencies,

1150
00:43:50,874 --> 00:43:51,773
we've moved

1151
00:43:52,724 --> 00:43:55,839
heavily in the direction of the individual has

1152
00:43:55,839 --> 00:43:59,295
less control over their lives and the government

1153
00:43:59,609 --> 00:44:02,161
and the state has more control over their

1154
00:44:02,161 --> 00:44:04,336
lives. In that kind of

1155
00:44:04,793 --> 00:44:05,032
atmosphere,

1156
00:44:05,989 --> 00:44:07,685
is that that that kind of political

1157
00:44:08,302 --> 00:44:10,307
atmosphere or or system or it's really an

1158
00:44:10,307 --> 00:44:11,898
anti system in the end of a mixed

1159
00:44:11,898 --> 00:44:12,217
economy,

1160
00:44:12,932 --> 00:44:14,467
you push people

1161
00:44:14,842 --> 00:44:15,580
into gangs

1162
00:44:16,369 --> 00:44:19,006
that the only way they can defend themselves

1163
00:44:19,006 --> 00:44:19,166
is,

1164
00:44:20,605 --> 00:44:23,242
I need to find some group that can

1165
00:44:23,242 --> 00:44:24,860
wield political power

1166
00:44:25,253 --> 00:44:28,453
So instead of you telling me, I can't

1167
00:44:29,144 --> 00:44:31,288
on my own land, I can't

1168
00:44:31,923 --> 00:44:34,146
cut down trees and build a farm.

1169
00:44:34,718 --> 00:44:36,309
Because that would be in,

1170
00:44:37,025 --> 00:44:39,968
jeopardize some supposed endangered species,

1171
00:44:40,365 --> 00:44:42,368
and I can't edge hate my kids in

1172
00:44:42,368 --> 00:44:44,195
this way because the state has a certain

1173
00:44:44,195 --> 00:44:45,545
view of how they have to be educated.

1174
00:44:46,260 --> 00:44:47,951
The more it's... Like, everything

1175
00:44:48,325 --> 00:44:51,527
seems an issue hate of force, you push

1176
00:44:51,527 --> 00:44:53,765
people to think. Okay. So the only way

1177
00:44:53,924 --> 00:44:55,762
I can have some control over my own

1178
00:44:55,762 --> 00:44:57,760
life is if I'm the 1 wielding force.

1179
00:44:58,253 --> 00:45:01,201
Not people enforce against me. I'm the 1

1180
00:45:01,201 --> 00:45:04,308
who is wielding enforced. My people are in

1181
00:45:04,308 --> 00:45:04,808
power

1182
00:45:05,184 --> 00:45:07,097
can can do what I want them to

1183
00:45:07,097 --> 00:45:10,235
do. And that is you're pushing people

1184
00:45:10,769 --> 00:45:11,587
into gangs

1185
00:45:11,961 --> 00:45:12,779
into groups

1186
00:45:13,233 --> 00:45:15,776
into thinking because the... This... That's what the

1187
00:45:15,776 --> 00:45:19,142
system is, and it as it dev evolves,

1188
00:45:19,541 --> 00:45:22,498
it becomes more naked that that's what the

1189
00:45:22,498 --> 00:45:25,215
system is that it's just it is the

1190
00:45:25,215 --> 00:45:25,934
use of force.

1191
00:45:26,507 --> 00:45:27,007
Against

1192
00:45:27,381 --> 00:45:28,097
innocent people.

1193
00:45:28,812 --> 00:45:32,072
And that... It's a... It's 1 of the

1194
00:45:32,072 --> 00:45:33,048
political causes

1195
00:45:33,423 --> 00:45:34,654
of tribalism,

1196
00:45:35,349 --> 00:45:38,239
and and again, this cuts across the political

1197
00:45:38,297 --> 00:45:39,753
parties and so. The

1198
00:45:40,129 --> 00:45:43,316
everybody in politics today in 1 way another,

1199
00:45:43,808 --> 00:45:46,694
pushes the mixed economy, and you're pushing people

1200
00:45:47,069 --> 00:45:49,398
into gangs. And I would single out here

1201
00:45:49,693 --> 00:45:53,533
to understand the tribalism and the idea that

1202
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,177
disputes are gonna be settled by force.

1203
00:45:58,924 --> 00:46:01,227
You can't under play Covid.

1204
00:46:02,276 --> 00:46:03,253
And the government

1205
00:46:03,787 --> 00:46:04,900
responds to Covid.

1206
00:46:05,457 --> 00:46:07,389
The idea that the government

1207
00:46:07,923 --> 00:46:09,855
can lock us in our homes

1208
00:46:10,884 --> 00:46:13,382
For months and months and months

1209
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:18,636
indicates to every citizen, the enormous control that

1210
00:46:18,636 --> 00:46:21,196
government has over their lives. Like, you can

1211
00:46:21,196 --> 00:46:22,465
all of a sudden tell me I can't

1212
00:46:22,465 --> 00:46:25,242
work my business is gonna crumble. I can't...

1213
00:46:25,876 --> 00:46:28,195
All... And even in with health care all

1214
00:46:28,275 --> 00:46:30,114
I have to be concerned with is Covid.

1215
00:46:30,434 --> 00:46:32,835
I can't get tested in cancer screenings and

1216
00:46:32,835 --> 00:46:34,434
so... Because that's all come to an end.

1217
00:46:35,234 --> 00:46:35,474
The...

1218
00:46:36,449 --> 00:46:38,607
That that doesn't push people to think,

1219
00:46:39,566 --> 00:46:41,804
okay. It better be my people wielding power.

1220
00:46:42,443 --> 00:46:44,281
Because when it's these other people that this

1221
00:46:44,281 --> 00:46:45,480
is the what they can do to me.

1222
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:47,487
This the kind of control they can exert

1223
00:46:47,487 --> 00:46:49,956
over my life. And the fact that there

1224
00:46:49,956 --> 00:46:51,390
hasn't been in the nation.

1225
00:46:52,187 --> 00:46:55,030
Soul searching and this it particularly now, the

1226
00:46:55,230 --> 00:46:56,429
to think of it politically.

1227
00:46:57,070 --> 00:46:59,489
More on the democratic left side

1228
00:46:59,949 --> 00:47:00,449
of

1229
00:47:01,230 --> 00:47:02,989
how can it be that we thought we

1230
00:47:02,989 --> 00:47:05,558
can wield this amount of power over people's

1231
00:47:05,558 --> 00:47:08,265
lives for this long, and on the basis

1232
00:47:08,265 --> 00:47:10,357
on which they did of part of what

1233
00:47:10,414 --> 00:47:11,926
emerged, but it was clear at the time,

1234
00:47:12,499 --> 00:47:14,736
they had not much basis for what they

1235
00:47:14,736 --> 00:47:15,215
were doing.

1236
00:47:15,934 --> 00:47:17,932
That... But that's part of the thinking of

1237
00:47:17,932 --> 00:47:19,550
how it pushes people to think

1238
00:47:19,864 --> 00:47:22,256
I've got a wheeled force. That's what politics

1239
00:47:22,256 --> 00:47:25,606
is about. People forcing me or me forcing

1240
00:47:25,606 --> 00:47:28,159
them, and that... But that's what tribal is

1241
00:47:28,159 --> 00:47:29,116
in a political level.

1242
00:47:29,689 --> 00:47:32,550
Looks like. And it's part... It's... That Covid

1243
00:47:32,550 --> 00:47:34,696
is part of symptom and part of cause.

1244
00:47:34,855 --> 00:47:36,206
Like many of these things, I think, a

1245
00:47:36,206 --> 00:47:38,804
part symptom, part cause of a descent looks

1246
00:47:39,162 --> 00:47:40,615
into tribal politically.

1247
00:47:43,293 --> 00:47:45,064
And we've got a

1248
00:47:45,438 --> 00:47:47,835
a quote from Iron rand on this... Same

1249
00:47:47,835 --> 00:47:49,342
issue that you were just talking about An

1250
00:47:49,342 --> 00:47:51,325
encore, the role of the mixed economy and

1251
00:47:51,325 --> 00:47:52,698
its relationship to tribalism

1252
00:47:53,388 --> 00:47:57,130
worth sharing from her lecture 19 77 global

1253
00:47:57,130 --> 00:47:58,503
balkan organization. She

1254
00:47:58,876 --> 00:48:01,890
she said, the political cause of tribalism rebirth

1255
00:48:01,890 --> 00:48:03,017
is the mixed of economy,

1256
00:48:03,654 --> 00:48:06,598
the transitional stage of the formerly civilized countries

1257
00:48:06,598 --> 00:48:08,110
of the west on their way to the

1258
00:48:08,110 --> 00:48:10,099
political level, from which the rest of the

1259
00:48:10,099 --> 00:48:13,079
world has never emerged. The level of permanent

1260
00:48:13,610 --> 00:48:17,100
tribal warfare and just to add 1 further

1261
00:48:17,100 --> 00:48:18,790
thought to the line that you were

1262
00:48:19,654 --> 00:48:20,154
developing

1263
00:48:20,606 --> 00:48:23,304
on cards. It's it's it's probably worth pointing

1264
00:48:23,304 --> 00:48:24,574
out that there... I mean, there was a

1265
00:48:24,574 --> 00:48:25,074
time

1266
00:48:25,526 --> 00:48:26,026
when

1267
00:48:26,494 --> 00:48:29,998
there was a noticeable difference between the right

1268
00:48:29,998 --> 00:48:32,627
and the left with regard to the issue

1269
00:48:32,627 --> 00:48:35,118
of state and the mixed economy, and

1270
00:48:35,988 --> 00:48:36,488
Republicans

1271
00:48:36,945 --> 00:48:38,619
stood more for the free market,

1272
00:48:39,417 --> 00:48:39,917
and

1273
00:48:40,373 --> 00:48:42,447
that's just no longer the case. And if

1274
00:48:42,447 --> 00:48:44,701
you look at the recent Republican national

1275
00:48:45,093 --> 00:48:45,593
committee's

1276
00:48:45,968 --> 00:48:46,446
platform,

1277
00:48:47,162 --> 00:48:49,948
there are no remnants of that old respect

1278
00:48:49,948 --> 00:48:52,177
for the free market. So and it's something

1279
00:48:52,177 --> 00:48:54,087
will be... I think revisiting in a future

1280
00:48:54,087 --> 00:48:55,298
episode. I should mention.

1281
00:48:56,417 --> 00:48:58,994
But the point is that both sides are

1282
00:48:59,693 --> 00:49:01,451
in 1 way or another advocates of the

1283
00:49:01,451 --> 00:49:02,170
mixed economy,

1284
00:49:02,902 --> 00:49:04,592
therefore, both sides are

1285
00:49:05,363 --> 00:49:08,141
responsible for for pushing people into these pressure

1286
00:49:08,141 --> 00:49:10,047
groups. And at the end of the day,

1287
00:49:10,206 --> 00:49:12,784
then you have a battle between, to rival

1288
00:49:12,998 --> 00:49:13,394
gangs,

1289
00:49:14,266 --> 00:49:15,876
neither of which stand for

1290
00:49:17,278 --> 00:49:20,951
any an rational principle that would separate them.

1291
00:49:23,106 --> 00:49:25,500
Ben you should talk. Just chime in on

1292
00:49:25,500 --> 00:49:26,857
on some... What we said Yeah. A couple

1293
00:49:26,857 --> 00:49:28,707
of thoughts on that. So I thought was

1294
00:49:28,707 --> 00:49:30,163
very helpful on car when you

1295
00:49:30,700 --> 00:49:33,170
described Covid as both a symptom and a

1296
00:49:33,170 --> 00:49:36,061
cause or reciprocal relationship there. And I think

1297
00:49:36,293 --> 00:49:38,220
I just take your your point and

1298
00:49:38,672 --> 00:49:40,654
underscored because I think the the mixed economy

1299
00:49:40,654 --> 00:49:43,112
is exactly the same. It's sort of a

1300
00:49:43,112 --> 00:49:45,920
macro level. It's both an effect of tribalism

1301
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:47,519
and it's a driver of tribalism at the

1302
00:49:47,519 --> 00:49:49,039
same time And in essence it's a vicious

1303
00:49:49,039 --> 00:49:51,599
circle, the keeps reinforcing. Because as you get

1304
00:49:51,599 --> 00:49:54,091
more people gaining pressure group, power over the

1305
00:49:54,091 --> 00:49:56,877
others, it manifests in into... That's part of

1306
00:49:56,877 --> 00:49:59,345
what I think is important In analysis of

1307
00:49:59,345 --> 00:50:01,017
the mixed economy and of tribalism,

1308
00:50:01,748 --> 00:50:03,178
the the other thing I wanted to to

1309
00:50:03,178 --> 00:50:04,847
add to what it's being said,

1310
00:50:05,482 --> 00:50:06,992
and this is in part of response to

1311
00:50:06,992 --> 00:50:08,104
a question that's come in.

1312
00:50:09,313 --> 00:50:11,249
III just wanna underline that

1313
00:50:11,627 --> 00:50:13,802
in Rand analysis of tribalism.

1314
00:50:14,419 --> 00:50:15,856
The mixed economy is a major...

1315
00:50:16,668 --> 00:50:19,321
Factor and an important 1 as in in

1316
00:50:19,460 --> 00:50:20,576
partly where I described it.

1317
00:50:21,693 --> 00:50:24,266
Another important driver of tribalism. I think

1318
00:50:24,644 --> 00:50:25,942
the fundamental 1

1319
00:50:26,254 --> 00:50:28,184
in my understanding is it's

1320
00:50:29,034 --> 00:50:30,384
it's not something that happened in the last

1321
00:50:30,384 --> 00:50:30,861
50 years.

1322
00:50:31,576 --> 00:50:33,641
We've seen a lot of significant symptoms of

1323
00:50:33,641 --> 00:50:34,912
in the last 50 years. So ben, you

1324
00:50:34,912 --> 00:50:36,517
you give an example of how in the

1325
00:50:36,517 --> 00:50:39,065
2 parties have become, particularly their republican parties

1326
00:50:39,065 --> 00:50:40,042
become less and less

1327
00:50:40,418 --> 00:50:42,090
associated with the free market less and a

1328
00:50:42,090 --> 00:50:43,841
supportive of. And at this point, I think

1329
00:50:43,841 --> 00:50:46,169
there's no 1 really left to supports the

1330
00:50:46,169 --> 00:50:48,242
free market and the public can given what's

1331
00:50:48,242 --> 00:50:49,758
in the the latest potty platform.

1332
00:50:50,556 --> 00:50:52,630
So we can trace those kinds of changes

1333
00:50:52,630 --> 00:50:54,199
in the last 50 years or so

1334
00:50:54,799 --> 00:50:56,716
maybe even going further back. But the the

1335
00:50:56,716 --> 00:50:58,335
roots of the current

1336
00:51:00,392 --> 00:51:02,445
expression of tribalism and what she called the

1337
00:51:02,564 --> 00:51:06,338
this balkan synchronization of society that splinter it

1338
00:51:06,476 --> 00:51:08,232
into pressure groups and other kinds of ethnic

1339
00:51:08,232 --> 00:51:10,010
groups or or race

1340
00:51:10,387 --> 00:51:11,026
identity groups,

1341
00:51:12,079 --> 00:51:13,618
that is the the

1342
00:51:14,077 --> 00:51:15,136
culmination or the the

1343
00:51:15,914 --> 00:51:17,134
the result of

1344
00:51:17,513 --> 00:51:19,350
a long, long progression.

1345
00:51:20,244 --> 00:51:21,464
Of eroding

1346
00:51:21,924 --> 00:51:24,565
and attacking the human mind reason as a

1347
00:51:24,565 --> 00:51:25,385
as a faculty

1348
00:51:26,005 --> 00:51:27,944
as something that can reach knowledge

1349
00:51:28,578 --> 00:51:30,641
something that is the means by which we

1350
00:51:30,641 --> 00:51:32,863
live and engage with 1 another and resolve

1351
00:51:32,863 --> 00:51:34,530
disputes, which is... I think the high point

1352
00:51:34,530 --> 00:51:36,434
of human civilization, We we got to that

1353
00:51:36,434 --> 00:51:38,919
point as thanks in large the enlightenment, which

1354
00:51:38,919 --> 00:51:40,456
really put individual,

1355
00:51:41,471 --> 00:51:43,784
individuals in their sovereign minds at the forefront

1356
00:51:43,784 --> 00:51:44,422
of our thinking.

1357
00:51:44,981 --> 00:51:47,030
But most of human civilization hasn't looked like

1358
00:51:47,228 --> 00:51:48,976
And what what we are seeing since enlightenment

1359
00:51:48,976 --> 00:51:51,995
is counter enlightenment philosophical trends. And that's the

1360
00:51:51,995 --> 00:51:54,776
point I really wanna put emphasis on. So

1361
00:51:54,856 --> 00:51:57,681
Rand analysis tribalism is that it's ultimately a

1362
00:51:57,739 --> 00:51:58,239
philosophical

1363
00:51:59,015 --> 00:52:00,930
trend that you need to think about to

1364
00:52:00,930 --> 00:52:03,418
understand what's driving it today. The and there's

1365
00:52:03,418 --> 00:52:05,489
a lot to say about that. And then

1366
00:52:05,489 --> 00:52:07,742
just the the sub point under that is

1367
00:52:08,357 --> 00:52:10,764
it's not at all built in. So... Tribalism

1368
00:52:10,764 --> 00:52:12,521
is not a feat... It's not a built

1369
00:52:12,521 --> 00:52:14,758
in feature of human nature. I don't think

1370
00:52:14,758 --> 00:52:16,595
it's true. There's a lot of analyses in

1371
00:52:16,595 --> 00:52:19,312
the last. 10 years of... Political tribalism in

1372
00:52:19,312 --> 00:52:20,344
in America, particularly.

1373
00:52:20,900 --> 00:52:23,598
And their accounts its evolution. It's the this

1374
00:52:23,598 --> 00:52:25,441
human nature out I don't think that's right.

1375
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:27,273
I think, I I grew Line Ram, which

1376
00:52:27,273 --> 00:52:29,662
is it's it's a default in choosing to

1377
00:52:29,662 --> 00:52:32,211
use your mind. Ultimately. That's a very profound

1378
00:52:32,211 --> 00:52:34,559
analysis, which I'm giving... Just a headline

1379
00:52:34,938 --> 00:52:38,395
level description up, but that's an important part

1380
00:52:38,614 --> 00:52:39,114
of

1381
00:52:39,573 --> 00:52:41,890
how she is distinctive in and our analyzing

1382
00:52:41,890 --> 00:52:43,905
travels. And and I I wanna stress this

1383
00:52:43,905 --> 00:52:44,405
because

1384
00:52:45,105 --> 00:52:46,864
if you think it's built in, there's no

1385
00:52:46,864 --> 00:52:49,505
solution. That it's inevitable. We're gonna just keep

1386
00:52:49,505 --> 00:52:51,755
descending into trials. But if you understand that

1387
00:52:51,755 --> 00:52:53,749
it is within our power to be non

1388
00:52:53,749 --> 00:52:54,807
tribal to be

1389
00:52:55,424 --> 00:52:57,657
independent minded to to use our minds and

1390
00:52:57,657 --> 00:53:00,151
engage 1 another that way. And

1391
00:53:00,463 --> 00:53:02,458
there's plenty of history to show that human

1392
00:53:02,458 --> 00:53:04,611
beings can do that, and that's a positive

1393
00:53:04,611 --> 00:53:06,047
to achieve and and aspire too.

1394
00:53:06,844 --> 00:53:08,201
Then you can get out of this, right.

1395
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,035
You you can get out of where we

1396
00:53:10,035 --> 00:53:12,202
are and climb out and achieve a better

1397
00:53:12,202 --> 00:53:14,297
kind of society. I think that's an important

1398
00:53:15,232 --> 00:53:17,943
aspect of her philosophy. It it's a matter

1399
00:53:17,943 --> 00:53:20,028
ultimately of the part power of human free

1400
00:53:20,028 --> 00:53:23,210
will to choose a better direction. Ultimately move

1401
00:53:23,210 --> 00:53:24,801
a culture in a better direction. So I

1402
00:53:24,801 --> 00:53:26,966
just wanna make sure that that's something that

1403
00:53:26,966 --> 00:53:28,481
we put on the on the table because

1404
00:53:28,481 --> 00:53:29,915
it's it's not a all the way people

1405
00:53:29,915 --> 00:53:30,734
think of tribalism.

1406
00:53:31,589 --> 00:53:33,922
Neither is it a a recent phenomenon

1407
00:53:34,792 --> 00:53:36,703
nor is it something that's inevitable it. There

1408
00:53:36,703 --> 00:53:38,137
are ways to get out of it.

1409
00:53:43,726 --> 00:53:44,545
I think it's

1410
00:53:45,557 --> 00:53:46,354
worth now

1411
00:53:46,832 --> 00:53:48,606
talking a little bit about

1412
00:53:48,982 --> 00:53:50,437
where we've seen tribal

1413
00:53:50,973 --> 00:53:51,473
reactions

1414
00:53:52,262 --> 00:53:53,159
to this latest

1415
00:53:54,808 --> 00:53:56,240
story, the assassination attempt,

1416
00:53:57,991 --> 00:53:58,809
Elon earlier

1417
00:53:59,517 --> 00:54:01,740
when you were characterizing what tribalism is,

1418
00:54:02,455 --> 00:54:04,146
you talked about the

1419
00:54:05,075 --> 00:54:07,934
frequent use of double standards where something's okay

1420
00:54:07,934 --> 00:54:10,362
for my my group but not for another

1421
00:54:10,422 --> 00:54:10,742
and,

1422
00:54:11,860 --> 00:54:13,478
On card, I think you

1423
00:54:14,257 --> 00:54:16,430
said more about that's to explain where... Coming

1424
00:54:16,430 --> 00:54:18,829
from that the tri mentality is 1 that's,

1425
00:54:19,789 --> 00:54:22,769
anti ideas. It's anti principal values.

1426
00:54:23,390 --> 00:54:23,445
That's

1427
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:25,871
and it's it's it's worth pointing out. I

1428
00:54:25,871 --> 00:54:28,280
think you've seen that exact same

1429
00:54:29,530 --> 00:54:30,460
behavior on

1430
00:54:30,896 --> 00:54:33,121
in in reaction to the assassination attempt that,

1431
00:54:34,391 --> 00:54:34,891
whereas

1432
00:54:35,345 --> 00:54:36,695
in the past, for instance,

1433
00:54:37,648 --> 00:54:39,420
you often see

1434
00:54:41,721 --> 00:54:43,637
I mean, the most prominent example that comes

1435
00:54:43,637 --> 00:54:46,191
to mind is the assassination attempt on Gabby

1436
00:54:46,271 --> 00:54:48,960
Gif, and there was an attempt them by

1437
00:54:49,159 --> 00:54:50,773
the the left and by Democrats

1438
00:54:51,466 --> 00:54:51,966
to

1439
00:54:52,421 --> 00:54:55,228
blame her assassination on the

1440
00:54:55,763 --> 00:54:58,150
specifically on very specific political rhetoric,

1441
00:54:58,565 --> 00:54:59,924
that, I think it was,

1442
00:55:02,085 --> 00:55:04,405
Sarah Pal was using about trying to

1443
00:55:05,444 --> 00:55:07,934
get gif out of office. They used a

1444
00:55:07,934 --> 00:55:10,509
targeting metaphor, so they were trying to blame

1445
00:55:11,206 --> 00:55:13,360
the the targeting metaphor for the

1446
00:55:14,490 --> 00:55:16,319
motives of the whoever it was that tried

1447
00:55:16,319 --> 00:55:17,273
to shoot cab gif.

1448
00:55:18,148 --> 00:55:18,648
And

1449
00:55:19,022 --> 00:55:20,079
you now see

1450
00:55:21,010 --> 00:55:22,998
people on the right doing exactly the same

1451
00:55:22,998 --> 00:55:23,236
thing.

1452
00:55:23,969 --> 00:55:25,110
Now it's not that,

1453
00:55:25,570 --> 00:55:26,070
rhetoric

1454
00:55:27,650 --> 00:55:30,690
has no relationship at all to a a

1455
00:55:30,690 --> 00:55:32,610
climate of violence. We've talked about ways in

1456
00:55:32,610 --> 00:55:34,617
which it is. When someone digs up the

1457
00:55:34,617 --> 00:55:36,846
fact that, Joe Biden had a tweet once

1458
00:55:36,846 --> 00:55:38,937
where he talked about targeting Trump for

1459
00:55:39,392 --> 00:55:41,381
getting him out of office, again, he use

1460
00:55:41,381 --> 00:55:42,018
of a metaphor.

1461
00:55:42,495 --> 00:55:45,054
But and says, as I think Laura Loom,

1462
00:55:45,213 --> 00:55:47,758
the right wing journalists did, therefore, they are

1463
00:55:47,758 --> 00:55:49,371
to blame for this

1464
00:55:49,984 --> 00:55:51,993
assassination attempt, I mean, that's quite a stretch,

1465
00:55:52,392 --> 00:55:54,730
and it's also quite a

1466
00:55:56,867 --> 00:56:00,150
way of distracting from the individual responsibility of

1467
00:56:00,150 --> 00:56:02,372
the actual shooter who who was not an

1468
00:56:02,372 --> 00:56:05,149
automaton. We don't even have, reason to think

1469
00:56:05,149 --> 00:56:06,315
that he was

1470
00:56:07,469 --> 00:56:08,505
mentally disturbed yet.

1471
00:56:09,540 --> 00:56:11,133
For all, we know, he's a bad guy,

1472
00:56:11,610 --> 00:56:14,079
who made a really awful vicious choice,

1473
00:56:14,876 --> 00:56:15,250
and

1474
00:56:15,849 --> 00:56:18,090
he's the 1 who bears primary responsibility and

1475
00:56:18,090 --> 00:56:20,010
yet now you have the right trying to

1476
00:56:20,010 --> 00:56:22,090
deflect from questions of individual responsibility in order

1477
00:56:22,090 --> 00:56:22,570
to blame.

1478
00:56:23,224 --> 00:56:25,368
Other people, adopting the same kind of,

1479
00:56:26,876 --> 00:56:27,694
very anti

1480
00:56:28,862 --> 00:56:31,720
individualistic, and I should add anti free speech,

1481
00:56:32,435 --> 00:56:35,889
other notion, which they, themselves had condemned into

1482
00:56:35,889 --> 00:56:36,769
the left for doing,

1483
00:56:38,449 --> 00:56:38,949
it

1484
00:56:39,329 --> 00:56:41,524
during the get the Gabby gif controversy.

1485
00:56:42,139 --> 00:56:43,573
I don't know if you've noticed if if

1486
00:56:43,573 --> 00:56:45,166
either you wanna comment on that issue or

1487
00:56:45,166 --> 00:56:47,658
if you've noticed other cases of, double standards

1488
00:56:48,433 --> 00:56:50,128
in reaction to this latest

1489
00:56:50,838 --> 00:56:51,712
this latest news.

1490
00:56:53,939 --> 00:56:55,393
I have a couple of quick

1491
00:56:55,927 --> 00:56:57,914
observations to offer I'm interested in your perspective

1492
00:56:57,914 --> 00:57:00,221
on car. So the J Vance who would

1493
00:57:00,221 --> 00:57:02,231
just being picked to be the running mate

1494
00:57:02,231 --> 00:57:04,306
for Donald Trump put out a tweet over

1495
00:57:04,306 --> 00:57:06,861
the weekend right after the assassination attempt along

1496
00:57:06,861 --> 00:57:08,218
the... I don't know have what's exactly in

1497
00:57:08,218 --> 00:57:09,415
front of what the the along the lines

1498
00:57:09,415 --> 00:57:11,664
of it's the rhetoric that we've been seeing

1499
00:57:11,664 --> 00:57:13,897
from the left that's led to this attack,

1500
00:57:14,057 --> 00:57:18,125
basically. So the the demon digitization of Trump

1501
00:57:18,125 --> 00:57:19,741
and the hatred for him

1502
00:57:20,373 --> 00:57:21,513
by the by the

1503
00:57:22,371 --> 00:57:22,690
opponents.

1504
00:57:24,528 --> 00:57:25,886
And it's a and there's a there's a

1505
00:57:25,886 --> 00:57:26,706
very strong

1506
00:57:27,339 --> 00:57:29,653
narrative that's come out now, which is that

1507
00:57:29,653 --> 00:57:31,010
this has been going on for so long

1508
00:57:31,010 --> 00:57:32,628
what do you expect of and it's

1509
00:57:33,006 --> 00:57:33,985
entirely directed

1510
00:57:34,442 --> 00:57:35,560
towards opponents of Trump.

1511
00:57:37,173 --> 00:57:38,871
But but that's just

1512
00:57:39,330 --> 00:57:41,088
not all accurate.

1513
00:57:41,487 --> 00:57:43,825
Because if you rewind, you can find

1514
00:57:44,217 --> 00:57:47,070
as bad if not worse tweets and and

1515
00:57:47,070 --> 00:57:47,570
commentary

1516
00:57:48,180 --> 00:57:50,954
against Biden from people like marjorie taylor green

1517
00:57:50,954 --> 00:57:52,717
and there's a question of how seriously you

1518
00:57:52,717 --> 00:57:54,308
have to take about. Unfortunately, she is in

1519
00:57:54,308 --> 00:57:56,615
government, and she is a... Elected official. She

1520
00:57:56,615 --> 00:57:58,420
has a lot of attention. So

1521
00:57:59,099 --> 00:58:01,500
people are complaining about the... A if few

1522
00:58:01,500 --> 00:58:03,260
months ago there's a cover of a magazine,

1523
00:58:03,339 --> 00:58:04,219
the the national,

1524
00:58:04,859 --> 00:58:07,272
sort of the new republic with with had

1525
00:58:07,272 --> 00:58:08,787
a picture of Trump as if he was

1526
00:58:08,787 --> 00:58:10,302
hitler, They they modified it to make a

1527
00:58:10,302 --> 00:58:11,738
look... And and the ideas that he's a

1528
00:58:11,738 --> 00:58:12,057
fascist.

1529
00:58:12,695 --> 00:58:12,934
Well,

1530
00:58:13,652 --> 00:58:15,747
moderate taylor green in 20 22

1531
00:58:16,298 --> 00:58:17,037
liken and

1532
00:58:17,652 --> 00:58:20,358
Biden to Hitler and not in an illusion

1533
00:58:20,358 --> 00:58:22,190
on in an image she literally said he's

1534
00:58:22,349 --> 00:58:23,702
Nazi Joe has to go.

1535
00:58:24,354 --> 00:58:25,943
So the idea that this is only coming

1536
00:58:25,943 --> 00:58:28,405
from 1 side and that it's okay for

1537
00:58:28,405 --> 00:58:29,677
our side to do it, but if it's

1538
00:58:29,677 --> 00:58:31,027
not okay for them to do it.

1539
00:58:31,677 --> 00:58:33,823
That is really just another symptom of what

1540
00:58:33,823 --> 00:58:36,150
we've been talking about. This this double standard

1541
00:58:36,286 --> 00:58:38,590
perspective, which it I hesitate to call it

1542
00:58:38,590 --> 00:58:40,020
double standard because it's not as if there's

1543
00:58:40,020 --> 00:58:41,790
a... Standard that they're not really living up

1544
00:58:41,790 --> 00:58:44,823
to. It's it's calling other people out for

1545
00:58:44,823 --> 00:58:47,296
something that you yourself do, but you accept

1546
00:58:47,296 --> 00:58:47,796
as

1547
00:58:48,907 --> 00:58:50,502
You don't even think it's a problem on

1548
00:58:50,502 --> 00:58:52,895
your side because it serves your goals, and

1549
00:58:52,895 --> 00:58:55,128
you're not concerned with whether something's true or

1550
00:58:55,128 --> 00:58:58,332
right. You're just concerned what supports your tribe.

1551
00:58:58,967 --> 00:59:01,428
I think that's all over the place. And

1552
00:59:01,428 --> 00:59:01,745
unfortunately,

1553
00:59:02,301 --> 00:59:03,889
it it's true that this kind of rhetoric

1554
00:59:03,889 --> 00:59:06,270
this kind of language is contributed. I don't

1555
00:59:06,270 --> 00:59:09,152
think it's tribe the exclusive causal factor for

1556
00:59:09,152 --> 00:59:10,826
the kinds of violence we're seeing. I think

1557
00:59:10,826 --> 00:59:12,102
it is definitely contributed,

1558
00:59:12,899 --> 00:59:15,371
and it's not at all localized to 1

1559
00:59:15,371 --> 00:59:17,216
tribe versus the other. And I that's an

1560
00:59:17,216 --> 00:59:19,125
important point to make because as you were

1561
00:59:19,125 --> 00:59:20,796
saying earlier, On Car and Ben,

1562
00:59:21,909 --> 00:59:22,760
there is no

1563
00:59:23,197 --> 00:59:26,063
conception of what is wrong about violence as

1564
00:59:26,063 --> 00:59:26,802
a principle,

1565
00:59:27,178 --> 00:59:28,394
and as a consistent

1566
00:59:29,009 --> 00:59:30,974
position, and that's what we're seeing

1567
00:59:31,334 --> 00:59:32,532
I think in in the way in which

1568
00:59:32,532 --> 00:59:34,690
people are bringing up the accounts and the...

1569
00:59:34,929 --> 00:59:35,829
The the

1570
00:59:36,447 --> 00:59:37,586
blaming of

1571
00:59:38,859 --> 00:59:40,297
heated rhetoric around the elections.

1572
00:59:43,892 --> 00:59:45,330
Let me say 2 things. 1 about...

1573
00:59:45,981 --> 00:59:49,075
The issue of double standards and then something

1574
00:59:49,075 --> 00:59:49,575
about

1575
00:59:50,027 --> 00:59:51,320
what 1 can do

1576
00:59:51,773 --> 00:59:53,518
as an individual and some of the questions,

1577
00:59:54,168 --> 00:59:55,915
I think 1 should ask what's up. So

1578
00:59:55,994 --> 00:59:58,932
I agree with you that it's being charitable

1579
00:59:58,932 --> 01:00:00,544
to call it a double standard

1580
01:00:01,077 --> 01:00:02,823
because what that means,

1581
01:00:03,554 --> 01:00:04,054
Is

1582
01:00:04,668 --> 01:00:05,487
the person

1583
01:00:07,137 --> 01:00:09,047
the... At and it's best what it means

1584
01:00:09,047 --> 01:00:10,879
is the person wants to live up to

1585
01:00:10,879 --> 01:00:11,618
a standard

1586
01:00:12,009 --> 01:00:13,841
and isn't, and you're calling them out, like,

1587
01:00:14,001 --> 01:00:16,550
that's a double standard. And on the expectation

1588
01:00:16,550 --> 01:00:18,463
that it will bother them. Like, really like

1589
01:00:18,463 --> 01:00:20,311
it's a double step. But I'm trying to

1590
01:00:20,311 --> 01:00:21,986
uphold this idea or this principle and you're

1591
01:00:21,986 --> 01:00:23,842
saying I'm doing it inconsistent,

1592
01:00:24,219 --> 01:00:26,713
and it would bother that. When it doesn't

1593
01:00:26,772 --> 01:00:28,846
bother them when they pointed out, then it

1594
01:00:28,846 --> 01:00:31,569
is to call it a double standard, it's

1595
01:00:31,569 --> 01:00:34,358
charitable because it suggest trying to live up

1596
01:00:34,358 --> 01:00:35,893
to an idea or a principle

1597
01:00:36,524 --> 01:00:38,915
and they're failing, and it would bother them

1598
01:00:38,915 --> 01:00:39,552
that they're failing.

1599
01:00:40,987 --> 01:00:44,037
What we... That we're in a tribal age

1600
01:00:45,065 --> 01:00:47,372
it's... When I talk to people about some

1601
01:00:47,372 --> 01:00:48,168
of these issues,

1602
01:00:48,963 --> 01:00:50,259
I find it stunning

1603
01:00:50,872 --> 01:00:51,324
how

1604
01:00:51,923 --> 01:00:54,397
they're... They don't care at all, that it

1605
01:00:54,397 --> 01:00:57,111
it... Like, if you had a view that

1606
01:00:57,111 --> 01:00:58,547
of a principle... We're trying to have a

1607
01:00:58,547 --> 01:00:59,926
principle view, it'd be

1608
01:01:00,239 --> 01:01:01,917
Yeah. I don't know how to square these

1609
01:01:01,917 --> 01:01:02,316
2 things,

1610
01:01:03,035 --> 01:01:05,432
but the their processing of it is just...

1611
01:01:05,751 --> 01:01:07,124
Yeah. It's the other side doing it it.

1612
01:01:07,362 --> 01:01:09,671
And so that... It's in a totally different

1613
01:01:09,671 --> 01:01:11,581
category than if we do it. And that's

1614
01:01:11,581 --> 01:01:13,570
a tribal processing, not of a trying to

1615
01:01:13,570 --> 01:01:14,309
have a principle

1616
01:01:15,175 --> 01:01:17,102
perspective. And the

1617
01:01:17,474 --> 01:01:19,614
the amount of conversations I had with people,

1618
01:01:20,089 --> 01:01:20,827
where it's

1619
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:26,134
B is bad, but January sixth, they'll make

1620
01:01:26,134 --> 01:01:29,628
all kinds of excuses. They'll rewrite what happened.

1621
01:01:30,199 --> 01:01:32,425
Mean, that was an episode again that many

1622
01:01:32,425 --> 01:01:32,925
republicans

1623
01:01:33,300 --> 01:01:35,687
criticized Trump, and now they've either left the

1624
01:01:35,687 --> 01:01:38,406
party or fallen in line. And and so

1625
01:01:38,406 --> 01:01:40,553
that whole episode is being rewritten. And that

1626
01:01:40,553 --> 01:01:42,223
a person, it will be...

1627
01:01:43,575 --> 01:01:44,927
They can't hold that...

1628
01:01:45,739 --> 01:01:48,539
Isn't there some similarity between these 2 because

1629
01:01:48,539 --> 01:01:50,299
in their mind, But the other side. So

1630
01:01:50,299 --> 01:01:52,859
there's is no similarity. And that's when you're

1631
01:01:52,859 --> 01:01:54,779
in 2 different threads. The other tribe,

1632
01:01:55,354 --> 01:01:56,867
And so it's totally different,

1633
01:01:57,584 --> 01:01:58,084
unintelligible,

1634
01:01:58,460 --> 01:01:59,894
but bad, and I have to fear it.

1635
01:02:00,054 --> 01:02:01,966
I have to stop it, and that's tribal.

1636
01:02:02,458 --> 01:02:04,917
And so 1 of the most important questions

1637
01:02:04,917 --> 01:02:08,645
somebody can ask themselves in political debates is...

1638
01:02:09,612 --> 01:02:12,153
Am I really trying to figure out what's

1639
01:02:12,153 --> 01:02:14,932
true? Am I really trying to figure out

1640
01:02:14,932 --> 01:02:18,209
what actually happened on January 6? Or what

1641
01:02:18,209 --> 01:02:21,166
were the nature of the B protest? What

1642
01:02:21,166 --> 01:02:24,703
actually happened in Seattle? It's a white washington

1643
01:02:24,762 --> 01:02:27,080
say, oh, they were mostly peaceful the protest?

1644
01:02:27,414 --> 01:02:29,248
What about the ones that weren't And what

1645
01:02:29,248 --> 01:02:31,083
was done about them? What was said about

1646
01:02:31,083 --> 01:02:33,657
them? How were they possible that they happened

1647
01:02:33,795 --> 01:02:35,869
and you have to really be thinking? And

1648
01:02:35,869 --> 01:02:38,376
you have to ask yourself? Am I trying

1649
01:02:38,432 --> 01:02:40,898
to reach a... What I think is a

1650
01:02:40,898 --> 01:02:41,398
true

1651
01:02:41,931 --> 01:02:43,999
conclusion, or am I trying to find... To

1652
01:02:43,999 --> 01:02:46,544
get to a conclusion that I'll find emotionally

1653
01:02:46,544 --> 01:02:47,021
satisfying?

1654
01:02:47,354 --> 01:02:49,427
So... And once that, I got that, I

1655
01:02:49,427 --> 01:02:52,219
stop, and that's it. And the... If you're

1656
01:02:52,219 --> 01:02:55,408
doing the second, you've succumb likely to to

1657
01:02:55,408 --> 01:02:58,210
tribal atmosphere. And it's... There's a lot you

1658
01:02:58,210 --> 01:02:59,800
can do if you ask and be honest

1659
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:02,028
with yourself. Am I really trying to figure

1660
01:03:02,028 --> 01:03:02,903
out what's...

1661
01:03:04,826 --> 01:03:07,052
And in that context double standards will really

1662
01:03:07,052 --> 01:03:10,233
bother because it's then it's... Yeah. I can't

1663
01:03:10,233 --> 01:03:12,459
integrate these things. It doesn't make sense. Shouldn't

1664
01:03:12,539 --> 01:03:15,106
I be saying something similar if I'm outraged

1665
01:03:15,106 --> 01:03:16,942
by the B, m? Shouldn't I be outraged

1666
01:03:16,942 --> 01:03:18,219
by January sixth as well.

1667
01:03:20,214 --> 01:03:21,890
I just wanna add 1 on floor to

1668
01:03:21,890 --> 01:03:22,210
this page.

1669
01:03:22,862 --> 01:03:24,376
If I can just jump jump in,

1670
01:03:25,332 --> 01:03:27,722
the there's a not... There's many dimensions to

1671
01:03:27,722 --> 01:03:29,018
the way in which people

1672
01:03:30,125 --> 01:03:32,215
right. So come to tribal thinking

1673
01:03:32,668 --> 01:03:35,212
without fully recognizing it. I think that's part

1674
01:03:35,212 --> 01:03:36,483
of what you're... What I take from your

1675
01:03:36,483 --> 01:03:38,731
comments. Is just to be... To notice that

1676
01:03:38,731 --> 01:03:40,567
that's happening and to ask yourself, what's the

1677
01:03:40,567 --> 01:03:41,067
final

1678
01:03:41,525 --> 01:03:43,121
motivation here? Is Am I trying to understand

1679
01:03:43,121 --> 01:03:44,559
the truth and figure it out? Or am

1680
01:03:44,639 --> 01:03:46,336
I just going with something that's

1681
01:03:46,649 --> 01:03:47,149
tribal

1682
01:03:47,528 --> 01:03:47,927
emotional,

1683
01:03:48,646 --> 01:03:49,146
satisfying.

1684
01:03:50,085 --> 01:03:51,363
I think, the other kind of thing that

1685
01:03:51,523 --> 01:03:52,262
I've seen

1686
01:03:52,721 --> 01:03:53,221
is

1687
01:03:54,094 --> 01:03:55,929
So, I mean, there's definitely 2 quick things.

1688
01:03:56,009 --> 01:03:58,026
1 is that there's exactly the same

1689
01:03:58,483 --> 01:04:00,399
phenomenon with the B protest as there is

1690
01:04:00,399 --> 01:04:03,048
with January 6. January 6... That's an interaction.

1691
01:04:03,288 --> 01:04:06,005
It's gonna it's gonna topple the Republic. These

1692
01:04:06,005 --> 01:04:07,363
people all need to be thrown in jail

1693
01:04:07,363 --> 01:04:09,041
forever and ever and ever. And I think

1694
01:04:09,041 --> 01:04:10,319
many of them deserve to be in jail.

1695
01:04:10,652 --> 01:04:11,866
I think it was a fundamentally

1696
01:04:12,556 --> 01:04:13,587
alarming development.

1697
01:04:14,301 --> 01:04:16,919
But you can't hold that view. And then

1698
01:04:16,919 --> 01:04:20,121
as you were pointing out by illusion, the

1699
01:04:20,201 --> 01:04:21,260
B was mostly

1700
01:04:21,876 --> 01:04:23,711
peaceful. And and how could you how could

1701
01:04:23,711 --> 01:04:25,864
you be objective? There's just normal people coming

1702
01:04:25,864 --> 01:04:28,614
out of our homes in into a fundamental

1703
01:04:28,833 --> 01:04:30,911
injustice Well, that some of them might have

1704
01:04:30,911 --> 01:04:32,748
be been, I don't think that's uniformly true,

1705
01:04:33,228 --> 01:04:35,679
and and that kind of mirroring is it's

1706
01:04:35,879 --> 01:04:37,733
really important to see that that's happening

1707
01:04:38,109 --> 01:04:40,579
in both directions. And then second quick point

1708
01:04:40,579 --> 01:04:41,854
in in relation to this,

1709
01:04:42,730 --> 01:04:44,824
the other kind of dimension of

1710
01:04:45,454 --> 01:04:46,354
bible thinking

1711
01:04:46,893 --> 01:04:47,393
is

1712
01:04:49,050 --> 01:04:52,006
the idea that if you're critical of Trump,

1713
01:04:52,246 --> 01:04:53,205
you must be for biden.

1714
01:04:54,809 --> 01:04:56,634
And if you're critical of Biden, then you

1715
01:04:56,634 --> 01:04:57,269
must be for Trump.

1716
01:04:58,380 --> 01:05:00,839
And... That's just not even remotely true. That's

1717
01:05:00,839 --> 01:05:03,083
not even logically true many other options. Not

1718
01:05:03,083 --> 01:05:04,362
that I'm here to to talk about the

1719
01:05:04,362 --> 01:05:06,120
other options, but that... That's just not the

1720
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:07,639
right way to think of it. But if

1721
01:05:07,639 --> 01:05:10,515
your reaction to oh, this person's is critical

1722
01:05:10,515 --> 01:05:10,995
of Trump,

1723
01:05:11,648 --> 01:05:13,156
they must be in Biden camp. They must

1724
01:05:13,156 --> 01:05:15,458
be just pushing for the democratic agenda.

1725
01:05:16,411 --> 01:05:18,633
Why is that your immediate reaction? Why is

1726
01:05:18,633 --> 01:05:19,824
that your assumption?

1727
01:05:20,794 --> 01:05:22,392
Why are you thinking in those ways? That

1728
01:05:22,392 --> 01:05:23,611
isn't really

1729
01:05:23,990 --> 01:05:26,068
being concerned what the person in front of

1730
01:05:26,068 --> 01:05:27,826
you is telling you? What are the facts

1731
01:05:27,826 --> 01:05:29,995
they're trying to present you with what's the

1732
01:05:29,995 --> 01:05:31,270
conclusion they're are getting for?

1733
01:05:32,146 --> 01:05:34,615
If if your immediate reactions to put them

1734
01:05:34,615 --> 01:05:35,433
in the other

1735
01:05:36,048 --> 01:05:38,014
pigeon hole because they're not saying what you

1736
01:05:38,293 --> 01:05:39,649
to say. They're not saying the things you're

1737
01:05:39,649 --> 01:05:41,004
familiar with it they're are comfortable with.

1738
01:05:41,881 --> 01:05:43,954
That is that is a question to ask

1739
01:05:43,954 --> 01:05:46,026
yourself. Are used to succumb to tribal thinking,

1740
01:05:46,505 --> 01:05:48,354
beck And and if you notice it happening

1741
01:05:48,354 --> 01:05:49,151
very immediately,

1742
01:05:49,710 --> 01:05:51,305
are you actually thinking Or is this just

1743
01:05:51,305 --> 01:05:54,415
an emotional reaction that you're cheating as if

1744
01:05:54,415 --> 01:05:55,452
you're actually thinking.

1745
01:05:56,264 --> 01:05:58,578
And that's true for for for in both

1746
01:05:58,578 --> 01:06:00,494
directions. I think there's a lot that an

1747
01:06:00,494 --> 01:06:03,207
individual should be orient themselves to in...

1748
01:06:04,418 --> 01:06:06,086
How they think about these issues so that

1749
01:06:06,086 --> 01:06:08,469
they don't become part of this climate,

1750
01:06:09,104 --> 01:06:11,090
and that's sort of another perspective on what

1751
01:06:11,090 --> 01:06:12,146
you're saying, which is

1752
01:06:13,014 --> 01:06:14,852
stuck outside of this climb. It's not good

1753
01:06:14,852 --> 01:06:16,770
for you. It's not healthy for your thinking,

1754
01:06:17,170 --> 01:06:19,008
and it's not gonna lead you to better

1755
01:06:19,008 --> 01:06:20,707
politics. So I'm gonna lead you to better

1756
01:06:20,766 --> 01:06:22,146
country. You need to

1757
01:06:22,938 --> 01:06:25,570
embrace what it means to be individual an

1758
01:06:25,570 --> 01:06:27,186
individual who's independent minded

1759
01:06:27,564 --> 01:06:30,058
and not succumb to this toxic

1760
01:06:30,834 --> 01:06:31,313
mindset.

1761
01:06:34,588 --> 01:06:36,835
Yeah. I I wanted to talk about

1762
01:06:38,479 --> 01:06:40,440
following up on something On encore said about

1763
01:06:41,275 --> 01:06:44,775
the connection between the tribal mindset and not

1764
01:06:44,775 --> 01:06:46,287
caring about what's true,

1765
01:06:48,132 --> 01:06:50,222
to me, the most,

1766
01:06:50,835 --> 01:06:52,051
I guess, el

1767
01:06:52,425 --> 01:06:52,925
expression

1768
01:06:53,697 --> 01:06:55,549
of the intensity of the tribalism,

1769
01:06:55,940 --> 01:06:58,900
in the reaction to this assassination attempt is

1770
01:06:58,900 --> 01:06:59,400
the

1771
01:07:00,019 --> 01:07:00,519
torrent

1772
01:07:01,380 --> 01:07:01,880
of

1773
01:07:02,739 --> 01:07:04,835
that we've seen pouring out of both sides

1774
01:07:04,835 --> 01:07:06,675
of the political spectrum. And somebody,

1775
01:07:07,715 --> 01:07:09,954
Daniel asked us a super chat question about

1776
01:07:09,954 --> 01:07:12,035
this. So I definitely wanted to comment on

1777
01:07:12,035 --> 01:07:12,250
it

1778
01:07:13,248 --> 01:07:14,927
what's especially interesting to me in this case,

1779
01:07:15,086 --> 01:07:16,385
and it, comes from,

1780
01:07:17,324 --> 01:07:18,304
morbid curiosity,

1781
01:07:19,162 --> 01:07:21,454
in part on my... In my case that

1782
01:07:21,654 --> 01:07:23,430
is the... Is how

1783
01:07:24,525 --> 01:07:25,025
rapid,

1784
01:07:26,519 --> 01:07:29,811
how rapidly the conspiracy theories poured forth

1785
01:07:30,348 --> 01:07:31,246
and how

1786
01:07:31,797 --> 01:07:33,887
both sides of the spectrum

1787
01:07:34,420 --> 01:07:36,566
engaged to them. On the basis of the

1788
01:07:36,566 --> 01:07:36,804
same,

1789
01:07:38,474 --> 01:07:38,974
completely

1790
01:07:39,348 --> 01:07:41,668
impoverished amount of evidence. The New York Times

1791
01:07:41,668 --> 01:07:44,134
ran a story the other days, documenting how

1792
01:07:44,134 --> 01:07:44,849
long it took.

1793
01:07:45,565 --> 01:07:46,463
For the first

1794
01:07:47,791 --> 01:07:50,336
conspiracy claims to pop up on social media,

1795
01:07:50,828 --> 01:07:52,498
after the first news of the shooting.

1796
01:07:53,214 --> 01:07:55,463
When we knew almost nothing

1797
01:07:55,997 --> 01:07:57,905
about what was happening, hardly even that there

1798
01:07:57,905 --> 01:07:59,496
was already... That there was even a shooting

1799
01:07:59,496 --> 01:08:00,212
was 4 minutes.

1800
01:08:01,022 --> 01:08:01,499
4 minutes.

1801
01:08:02,295 --> 01:08:04,681
And then only 30 minutes after that, did,

1802
01:08:05,079 --> 01:08:07,067
Laura Loom a prominent journalist with a million

1803
01:08:07,067 --> 01:08:07,465
followers,

1804
01:08:08,357 --> 01:08:09,632
start alleging that,

1805
01:08:10,509 --> 01:08:11,567
Biden was somehow

1806
01:08:12,501 --> 01:08:14,414
responsible for having ordered des shooting.

1807
01:08:15,132 --> 01:08:15,632
And

1808
01:08:16,022 --> 01:08:18,244
but it's on both sides. The the the

1809
01:08:18,244 --> 01:08:21,682
right, it has been claiming that it was

1810
01:08:21,738 --> 01:08:23,739
some kind of inside job by the... Biden

1811
01:08:23,739 --> 01:08:26,610
an administration or the secret service, to knock

1812
01:08:26,770 --> 01:08:29,082
Trump out of the race, the left has

1813
01:08:29,082 --> 01:08:31,257
been arguing that the whole thing was staged

1814
01:08:31,316 --> 01:08:33,962
that Trump was never really in any danger

1815
01:08:33,962 --> 01:08:35,472
that it was all done just to boost

1816
01:08:35,472 --> 01:08:37,483
his image as though he needed it

1817
01:08:38,335 --> 01:08:39,368
after the last few weeks.

1818
01:08:40,403 --> 01:08:40,903
And

1819
01:08:41,755 --> 01:08:44,823
danger the the thing to notice is the

1820
01:08:44,962 --> 01:08:46,159
utter lack of evidence.

1821
01:08:47,676 --> 01:08:49,193
How could there be time to gather any

1822
01:08:49,193 --> 01:08:50,070
evidence if

1823
01:08:50,564 --> 01:08:51,996
the news has only just come out.

1824
01:08:52,951 --> 01:08:57,408
And the manufacturing of of apparent evidence to

1825
01:08:57,408 --> 01:08:59,238
make it look like there's thinking going on

1826
01:08:59,238 --> 01:09:01,747
when In fact, they're... Isn't really both sides

1827
01:09:02,365 --> 01:09:04,304
would point to the fact that

1828
01:09:04,842 --> 01:09:06,520
this this guy was able to get up

1829
01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:08,287
on the roof and how could that have

1830
01:09:08,287 --> 01:09:10,140
happened? It must have been that somebody

1831
01:09:10,594 --> 01:09:12,424
let it happen. And, I mean, that's just

1832
01:09:12,424 --> 01:09:13,856
a complete non s,

1833
01:09:14,826 --> 01:09:17,535
there's no actual thinking going on there. There's

1834
01:09:17,535 --> 01:09:20,323
a there's a dozens of reasons why,

1835
01:09:21,932 --> 01:09:23,687
the secret service might have failed

1836
01:09:24,165 --> 01:09:27,274
innocently to catch him and no reason at

1837
01:09:27,274 --> 01:09:27,774
all

1838
01:09:28,231 --> 01:09:30,167
to think that that is any evidence

1839
01:09:30,715 --> 01:09:31,587
of a conspiracy.

1840
01:09:32,142 --> 01:09:33,886
And so what's interesting about it to me

1841
01:09:33,886 --> 01:09:36,027
is in the absence of evidence,

1842
01:09:36,423 --> 01:09:38,582
the fact that you have both sides of

1843
01:09:38,582 --> 01:09:39,960
the political spectrum

1844
01:09:41,773 --> 01:09:43,128
gl onto a theory,

1845
01:09:44,006 --> 01:09:46,638
it it really brings out the tribal element

1846
01:09:46,638 --> 01:09:47,890
of it because they

1847
01:09:48,648 --> 01:09:51,360
they're in this... They're in effect engaging in

1848
01:09:51,360 --> 01:09:53,993
in political wish thinking. They really want it

1849
01:09:53,993 --> 01:09:56,004
to be the case that it Biden who

1850
01:09:56,004 --> 01:09:57,363
did this because then they can blame it

1851
01:09:57,363 --> 01:09:59,360
on him and score political points. They really

1852
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:01,917
wanted to be the case that Trump faked

1853
01:10:01,917 --> 01:10:03,810
it because then they can blame him for

1854
01:10:04,485 --> 01:10:06,472
staging this just as a propaganda and measure.

1855
01:10:07,188 --> 01:10:09,595
It's entirely driven by their

1856
01:10:09,970 --> 01:10:12,672
imagination by their wish visual thinking, and by

1857
01:10:12,672 --> 01:10:15,881
their tribal loyalty by their desire to be

1858
01:10:15,881 --> 01:10:16,381
on

1859
01:10:17,399 --> 01:10:19,077
once on the side of the good guys

1860
01:10:19,077 --> 01:10:21,255
and against the bad guys. And

1861
01:10:21,967 --> 01:10:23,002
neither of them

1862
01:10:23,639 --> 01:10:26,427
have any basis in evidence for their claim.

1863
01:10:26,985 --> 01:10:29,454
And then to use this thinking,

1864
01:10:30,663 --> 01:10:33,529
and to weapon it so rapidly and and

1865
01:10:33,529 --> 01:10:34,029
massively

1866
01:10:34,962 --> 01:10:38,065
on social media. So soon after the fact,

1867
01:10:40,468 --> 01:10:42,059
when we talk about the way in which

1868
01:10:42,059 --> 01:10:44,150
tribalism is conducive to

1869
01:10:44,604 --> 01:10:47,149
a climate of violence. Well, I mean, this

1870
01:10:47,149 --> 01:10:48,581
is 1 of the ways that it does

1871
01:10:48,581 --> 01:10:50,269
it. This is 1 of the ways that

1872
01:10:50,269 --> 01:10:51,247
it does it by,

1873
01:10:53,536 --> 01:10:54,036
allowing

1874
01:10:54,572 --> 01:10:55,927
emotions rather than evidence.

1875
01:10:56,978 --> 01:10:58,994
To rule the day in

1876
01:10:59,372 --> 01:10:59,692
discourse.

1877
01:11:00,409 --> 01:11:01,787
And not only

1878
01:11:02,166 --> 01:11:04,614
that, but in a way where you're now

1879
01:11:04,734 --> 01:11:06,253
saying, it's not just that the other side

1880
01:11:06,253 --> 01:11:06,812
is bad,

1881
01:11:07,372 --> 01:11:09,609
and we're doing everything we can to oppose

1882
01:11:09,609 --> 01:11:11,527
the other side. But also the other side

1883
01:11:11,527 --> 01:11:12,805
is planning in secrets,

1884
01:11:13,937 --> 01:11:17,127
not just to undertake Nefarious acts, but even

1885
01:11:17,127 --> 01:11:20,078
to to kill presidential candidates. I mean, when

1886
01:11:20,078 --> 01:11:22,153
more and more people believe that, they see

1887
01:11:22,153 --> 01:11:23,863
the other side as as this

1888
01:11:25,426 --> 01:11:26,561
completely demonic

1889
01:11:27,014 --> 01:11:30,372
power. Well, it's it's little wonder that,

1890
01:11:30,824 --> 01:11:33,225
as there's a kind of cycle of violence

1891
01:11:33,225 --> 01:11:33,702
that is...

1892
01:11:34,417 --> 01:11:36,269
That continues to be perpetuated.

1893
01:11:37,916 --> 01:11:39,842
Lawn, I wonder if you have any further

1894
01:11:39,842 --> 01:11:41,140
thoughts or comments on the

1895
01:11:41,596 --> 01:11:43,453
aspect of this tribal

1896
01:11:43,830 --> 01:11:44,069
reaction?

1897
01:11:45,585 --> 01:11:48,136
Yeah. 2 ways in which it 2 further

1898
01:11:48,136 --> 01:11:51,195
ways in which it connects to the tribalism

1899
01:11:51,965 --> 01:11:54,185
it's sort of implicit in what you've said,

1900
01:11:55,137 --> 01:11:55,637
but

1901
01:11:56,659 --> 01:11:58,112
both you can think of as

1902
01:11:59,119 --> 01:12:00,334
the... What tribalism

1903
01:12:00,786 --> 01:12:01,286
means

1904
01:12:01,659 --> 01:12:03,429
is the absence

1905
01:12:03,802 --> 01:12:06,063
of ideas, and of principles.

1906
01:12:07,149 --> 01:12:08,522
That's a very

1907
01:12:08,895 --> 01:12:10,799
hard state in which to live,

1908
01:12:11,909 --> 01:12:12,886
and in a modern

1909
01:12:13,672 --> 01:12:17,338
civilized world to be stripped of ideas and

1910
01:12:17,338 --> 01:12:19,889
principles that can help you make sense of

1911
01:12:19,889 --> 01:12:20,447
the world,

1912
01:12:21,971 --> 01:12:25,012
it's... You you feel at sea and what

1913
01:12:26,577 --> 01:12:28,800
and these kinds of fantasies part of what

1914
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:30,824
they do is they give the... Sem

1915
01:12:31,443 --> 01:12:35,457
of understanding and the sem of explanation and

1916
01:12:35,596 --> 01:12:36,096
control

1917
01:12:36,475 --> 01:12:38,962
that its I'm not out of control and

1918
01:12:38,962 --> 01:12:40,475
the people around me aren't out of a

1919
01:12:40,475 --> 01:12:41,829
control. It's no.

1920
01:12:42,546 --> 01:12:44,697
I've got an explanation of how why things

1921
01:12:44,697 --> 01:12:46,154
are happening. And

1922
01:12:46,703 --> 01:12:49,722
So it's the sem of an idea of

1923
01:12:49,722 --> 01:12:52,185
the theory, but it's devoid from evidence,

1924
01:12:52,820 --> 01:12:55,997
and it's devoid most of the time from

1925
01:12:56,649 --> 01:12:59,914
any kind of consistency or full logic when

1926
01:12:59,914 --> 01:13:01,747
you try to trace out. It doesn't make

1927
01:13:01,747 --> 01:13:03,260
any sense that that

1928
01:13:03,658 --> 01:13:04,636
like simultaneously

1929
01:13:06,385 --> 01:13:06,885
Biden

1930
01:13:07,265 --> 01:13:07,765
is

1931
01:13:09,185 --> 01:13:11,664
close to sen aisle, buddy's he's plotting these

1932
01:13:11,664 --> 01:13:13,824
master plots and they like the the that...

1933
01:13:14,064 --> 01:13:15,752
Those there's so many things that don't make

1934
01:13:15,752 --> 01:13:17,344
sense, but it... That's what... It's just a

1935
01:13:17,344 --> 01:13:17,844
sem

1936
01:13:18,299 --> 01:13:22,198
of thinking and the... What they project then,

1937
01:13:22,595 --> 01:13:23,653
it's not

1938
01:13:23,964 --> 01:13:25,820
the other side might be

1939
01:13:26,595 --> 01:13:27,734
gaining power

1940
01:13:28,190 --> 01:13:30,822
because they've convinced people of anything. So the

1941
01:13:30,822 --> 01:13:32,757
conspiracy... That it's a is always

1942
01:13:33,309 --> 01:13:36,689
some nefarious thing that people have wielded power

1943
01:13:36,989 --> 01:13:38,909
and part of it, what makes it seem

1944
01:13:38,909 --> 01:13:41,149
like you could use force. If we just

1945
01:13:41,149 --> 01:13:42,349
eliminated those people.

1946
01:13:43,796 --> 01:13:46,252
That would solve things because there's not ideas

1947
01:13:46,252 --> 01:13:48,313
that you have to address and counter and

1948
01:13:48,313 --> 01:13:50,865
so it's just people. And that's... Also part

1949
01:13:50,865 --> 01:13:53,329
of how the tribal looked. The other side

1950
01:13:53,329 --> 01:13:54,466
is a bunch of people

1951
01:13:54,840 --> 01:13:56,747
plotting against me in some kind of way.

1952
01:13:56,985 --> 01:13:58,673
And I have to eliminate of people not

1953
01:13:58,673 --> 01:14:00,271
fight the ideas that they're advocating.

1954
01:14:01,630 --> 01:14:04,960
And the the... So that the the the

1955
01:14:05,639 --> 01:14:06,139
conspiracies

1956
01:14:06,677 --> 01:14:09,154
always goes with tribalism. I think in any

1957
01:14:09,154 --> 01:14:11,332
modern. Like when we're try... Talking about tribalism

1958
01:14:11,551 --> 01:14:12,909
in a modern environment.

1959
01:14:14,122 --> 01:14:16,618
So when we're talking about collapse from

1960
01:14:17,075 --> 01:14:19,310
civilization, they I think they always go together.

1961
01:14:22,436 --> 01:14:22,936
1

1962
01:14:23,393 --> 01:14:26,182
interesting historical anecdote to add to that, On

1963
01:14:26,182 --> 01:14:26,979
encore is a...

1964
01:14:28,255 --> 01:14:31,531
1 of Ina rand, essay essays is analyzing

1965
01:14:31,531 --> 01:14:33,198
the phenomenon of tribalism is,

1966
01:14:34,627 --> 01:14:36,692
her essay the missing link, which came out

1967
01:14:36,692 --> 01:14:38,597
in I think 19 73 or 74,

1968
01:14:39,250 --> 01:14:41,329
and there's a there's a portion of that

1969
01:14:41,329 --> 01:14:43,329
essay, the original version that was published in

1970
01:14:43,329 --> 01:14:45,170
her periodic where she talks about the water

1971
01:14:45,170 --> 01:14:46,050
gate conspirators.

1972
01:14:46,770 --> 01:14:47,270
And

1973
01:14:47,741 --> 01:14:49,194
it's it's interesting how,

1974
01:14:51,234 --> 01:14:53,535
obviously, they were ordered by Nixon. Nixon had

1975
01:14:53,535 --> 01:14:54,646
a kind of conspiracy.

1976
01:14:55,219 --> 01:14:59,055
Fantasy about the Democrats, plotting against him. And

1977
01:14:59,055 --> 01:15:00,333
part of the reason that he wanted to

1978
01:15:00,333 --> 01:15:01,931
do the water gate breaking or that he

1979
01:15:01,931 --> 01:15:03,904
authorize people to authorize the water gate break

1980
01:15:04,104 --> 01:15:06,257
was to get the dirt on the democrats

1981
01:15:06,257 --> 01:15:08,570
who were plotting this conspiracy against him. And

1982
01:15:08,570 --> 01:15:10,245
so in in the course of thinking that

1983
01:15:10,245 --> 01:15:11,921
there's this conspiracy on the basis of no

1984
01:15:11,921 --> 01:15:13,675
evidence, he then engages in a conspiracy,

1985
01:15:14,567 --> 01:15:16,158
which is... That, I mean, the Water gate

1986
01:15:16,158 --> 01:15:18,149
is a the exe of of,

1987
01:15:19,105 --> 01:15:20,640
actual conspiracies that happen

1988
01:15:21,335 --> 01:15:22,345
in American history

1989
01:15:22,863 --> 01:15:24,320
which, of course, fails miserably

1990
01:15:24,777 --> 01:15:27,248
on his part. And, I mean, that's that's

1991
01:15:27,248 --> 01:15:29,002
an example of how this kind of mindset

1992
01:15:29,002 --> 01:15:32,208
can can breed the very kind of behavior

1993
01:15:32,208 --> 01:15:34,943
that it suspects the other side to be

1994
01:15:35,560 --> 01:15:36,199
engaging in.

1995
01:15:38,993 --> 01:15:40,212
Given that

1996
01:15:41,161 --> 01:15:43,250
tribalism generally is

1997
01:15:44,734 --> 01:15:46,108
a consequence of

1998
01:15:46,878 --> 01:15:49,434
motions ruling the day rather than reason and

1999
01:15:49,434 --> 01:15:51,340
evidence. I think it's important for us to

2000
01:15:51,340 --> 01:15:51,578
have,

2001
01:15:52,213 --> 01:15:54,675
to to close our discussion by talking about

2002
01:15:54,675 --> 01:15:55,572
ways in which

2003
01:15:57,395 --> 01:16:00,034
trying to be more objective in one's own

2004
01:16:00,034 --> 01:16:01,494
thinking, trying to

2005
01:16:01,954 --> 01:16:04,034
based one's thinking on the evidence and logic

2006
01:16:04,034 --> 01:16:06,997
rather than emotions is the tonic that we

2007
01:16:06,997 --> 01:16:07,315
need,

2008
01:16:07,950 --> 01:16:10,094
if if anything can get us out of

2009
01:16:10,094 --> 01:16:12,318
this climate, that's that's the only thing that

2010
01:16:12,318 --> 01:16:12,873
we'll do it.

2011
01:16:14,079 --> 01:16:15,510
And, I mean, there's been a lot of

2012
01:16:15,510 --> 01:16:16,860
talk in the last few days,

2013
01:16:17,734 --> 01:16:20,460
about the need to turn down the temperature

2014
01:16:21,469 --> 01:16:21,707
to,

2015
01:16:22,679 --> 01:16:23,877
tone down, the rhetoric.

2016
01:16:24,357 --> 01:16:26,913
There's some understanding that there's something wrong with

2017
01:16:26,913 --> 01:16:29,550
our mindset that's leading to this climate,

2018
01:16:29,963 --> 01:16:31,712
but there's not been a lot of,

2019
01:16:32,349 --> 01:16:33,246
actual practical

2020
01:16:34,098 --> 01:16:35,632
advice about how

2021
01:16:36,166 --> 01:16:39,108
we're supposed to tone down the the the

2022
01:16:39,108 --> 01:16:40,472
rhetoric or turn down the temperature,

2023
01:16:41,187 --> 01:16:42,083
especially without

2024
01:16:42,774 --> 01:16:46,186
actually abandoning our own values because people still

2025
01:16:46,186 --> 01:16:47,708
need to stand up turn their values. They

2026
01:16:47,708 --> 01:16:49,056
still need to decide how they're going to

2027
01:16:49,056 --> 01:16:50,247
vote in this election and so forth.

2028
01:16:51,357 --> 01:16:52,944
And so I thought we should close by

2029
01:16:52,944 --> 01:16:55,349
talking about that at what what are practical

2030
01:16:55,349 --> 01:16:57,670
ways in which 1 can be more objective,

2031
01:16:57,829 --> 01:17:00,309
more evidence based in one's thinking, and I'll

2032
01:17:00,469 --> 01:17:02,010
I'll I'll start by

2033
01:17:02,802 --> 01:17:04,627
kicking us off with the following thoughts.

2034
01:17:06,214 --> 01:17:07,587
There is obviously

2035
01:17:08,673 --> 01:17:09,173
a

2036
01:17:10,275 --> 01:17:12,021
an election coming up, and we're not going

2037
01:17:12,021 --> 01:17:12,180
to,

2038
01:17:13,132 --> 01:17:15,116
comment on or recommend 1 side or the

2039
01:17:15,116 --> 01:17:15,275
other,

2040
01:17:16,149 --> 01:17:16,863
to vote for,

2041
01:17:17,433 --> 01:17:19,764
But it is worth thinking about

2042
01:17:20,935 --> 01:17:23,344
whether it's true that

2043
01:17:24,435 --> 01:17:26,028
what both parties are saying.

2044
01:17:27,155 --> 01:17:29,003
About the other that the other is

2045
01:17:30,011 --> 01:17:31,598
the end of the world in effect and

2046
01:17:31,598 --> 01:17:33,844
that we're we're usher in a new

2047
01:17:34,390 --> 01:17:37,250
apocalypse for America, if the other side wins.

2048
01:17:37,885 --> 01:17:40,505
And I think there's something each side needs

2049
01:17:40,505 --> 01:17:42,967
to consider, but why that's not actually true,

2050
01:17:43,459 --> 01:17:46,435
Like, even if you think both sides

2051
01:17:47,853 --> 01:17:49,930
plan to implement terrible policies, which I think

2052
01:17:49,930 --> 01:17:50,330
they do.

2053
01:17:51,064 --> 01:17:52,337
Why this doesn't mean it's the end of

2054
01:17:52,337 --> 01:17:53,612
the world for America,

2055
01:17:54,089 --> 01:17:55,841
not if we maintain our heads.

2056
01:17:56,636 --> 01:17:59,025
So for instance, to those on the right,

2057
01:17:59,997 --> 01:18:02,387
who are worried so much about Biden. I

2058
01:18:02,387 --> 01:18:02,785
would say,

2059
01:18:03,822 --> 01:18:05,914
Biden Fbi is investigating

2060
01:18:06,451 --> 01:18:06,951
this

2061
01:18:07,407 --> 01:18:07,965
assassination attempt.

2062
01:18:10,052 --> 01:18:13,185
Biden Cia released information that there was a

2063
01:18:13,244 --> 01:18:14,383
plot by Iran

2064
01:18:15,079 --> 01:18:18,283
to assassinate Trump, and they because of that

2065
01:18:18,283 --> 01:18:21,065
beef up his security at this and recent

2066
01:18:21,065 --> 01:18:23,608
events, They've now redo doubled his security at

2067
01:18:23,608 --> 01:18:24,935
the Gop convention

2068
01:18:25,614 --> 01:18:28,490
as we already talked about politicians and media

2069
01:18:28,490 --> 01:18:30,568
figures on both sides of the spectrum have

2070
01:18:30,568 --> 01:18:34,412
widely condemned this assassination attempt. So there... It

2071
01:18:34,412 --> 01:18:36,344
we talked in the... At the beginning about

2072
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:37,140
why

2073
01:18:37,515 --> 01:18:38,573
part of what makes

2074
01:18:39,585 --> 01:18:40,404
assassination attempts

2075
01:18:40,873 --> 01:18:43,265
so terrible. Is there assault on the rule

2076
01:18:43,265 --> 01:18:45,259
of law, and their assault on the constitution.

2077
01:18:45,657 --> 01:18:47,353
And I think it's important to see that

2078
01:18:47,491 --> 01:18:49,346
there is still some

2079
01:18:49,739 --> 01:18:50,699
at least modi,

2080
01:18:51,420 --> 01:18:53,180
of respect for that on both sides of

2081
01:18:53,180 --> 01:18:53,659
the spectrum,

2082
01:18:54,460 --> 01:18:57,920
as witnessed the fact that the Democratic administration

2083
01:18:58,300 --> 01:18:58,800
is

2084
01:18:59,674 --> 01:19:02,631
making efforts to find out what went wrong

2085
01:19:02,631 --> 01:19:05,427
here and investigating to see how they can

2086
01:19:05,427 --> 01:19:07,025
prevent it in the future. And to the

2087
01:19:07,025 --> 01:19:07,345
left,

2088
01:19:07,916 --> 01:19:09,661
I would say the following thing as well

2089
01:19:09,661 --> 01:19:12,700
because I think part of why this seems

2090
01:19:13,153 --> 01:19:13,470
so...

2091
01:19:14,501 --> 01:19:14,739
Why...

2092
01:19:16,024 --> 01:19:17,779
Perhaps why some of them are are tempted

2093
01:19:17,779 --> 01:19:20,011
to wish that the the bullet had gone

2094
01:19:20,011 --> 01:19:20,911
the other way

2095
01:19:21,447 --> 01:19:24,158
is they see Trump as this existential threat

2096
01:19:24,158 --> 01:19:25,435
to democracy so forth.

2097
01:19:26,406 --> 01:19:27,781
And they've been

2098
01:19:28,475 --> 01:19:29,532
they've been des

2099
01:19:29,988 --> 01:19:31,124
about various losses

2100
01:19:31,579 --> 01:19:33,511
to their side in Supreme Court

2101
01:19:33,967 --> 01:19:35,161
in in recent weeks.

2102
01:19:36,371 --> 01:19:39,637
Notably the Trump Us case where, the issue

2103
01:19:39,637 --> 01:19:42,107
of presidential immunity came up. And I think

2104
01:19:42,107 --> 01:19:43,939
we plan to do a podcast on that,

2105
01:19:44,338 --> 01:19:45,109
sometime in the next

2106
01:19:45,626 --> 01:19:46,102
week or 2.

2107
01:19:46,896 --> 01:19:47,952
But it is

2108
01:19:48,564 --> 01:19:50,707
important to note if you're being objective if

2109
01:19:50,707 --> 01:19:52,851
you're looking at the evidence about what's actually

2110
01:19:52,851 --> 01:19:55,569
happened in Supreme court, they're are lots of

2111
01:19:55,569 --> 01:19:57,819
ways in which the recent court

2112
01:19:58,195 --> 01:19:58,695
decisions

2113
01:19:59,309 --> 01:20:01,241
have provided a bull work against

2114
01:20:02,189 --> 01:20:05,140
the very kind of powerful executive power

2115
01:20:06,018 --> 01:20:07,931
wielded by the president that the left is

2116
01:20:07,931 --> 01:20:09,527
now worried about. The best example of this

2117
01:20:09,527 --> 01:20:11,282
is the Chevron decision which the left didn't

2118
01:20:11,282 --> 01:20:11,442
like.

2119
01:20:12,175 --> 01:20:14,175
Did a podcast about this a couple of

2120
01:20:14,175 --> 01:20:15,234
weeks ago about

2121
01:20:16,015 --> 01:20:16,515
why

2122
01:20:16,895 --> 01:20:19,614
it... The effective of rating in this so

2123
01:20:19,614 --> 01:20:22,506
called Chevron defer is to take... Power out

2124
01:20:22,506 --> 01:20:24,739
of the executive branch, take it out of

2125
01:20:24,739 --> 01:20:27,552
the administrative agencies who have no oversight whatsoever.

2126
01:20:28,648 --> 01:20:30,163
And I I think that if you apply

2127
01:20:30,163 --> 01:20:32,011
the same kind of objectivity even to the

2128
01:20:32,250 --> 01:20:34,819
Us Trump decision, you'll see, it doesn't

2129
01:20:35,352 --> 01:20:37,579
give him some kind of un qualified absolute

2130
01:20:37,579 --> 01:20:39,408
immunity to do whatever he wants to or

2131
01:20:39,408 --> 01:20:41,735
assassinate. To political rivals. This is I think

2132
01:20:41,735 --> 01:20:44,127
1 the things we'll talk about, when we

2133
01:20:44,127 --> 01:20:45,404
analyze this decision. But,

2134
01:20:46,122 --> 01:20:46,940
there are

2135
01:20:47,717 --> 01:20:49,551
institutions in this country. And there's separation of

2136
01:20:49,551 --> 01:20:51,881
powers and that contributes to the rule of

2137
01:20:51,881 --> 01:20:52,200
law.

2138
01:20:53,078 --> 01:20:53,978
And if

2139
01:20:54,595 --> 01:20:56,272
they've been remarkable... In my opinion, at least,

2140
01:20:56,431 --> 01:20:57,411
they had been remarkably

2141
01:20:57,948 --> 01:20:59,920
resilient in the face of that

2142
01:21:01,546 --> 01:21:03,449
ever eroding standards and,

2143
01:21:04,163 --> 01:21:05,511
increasing levels of state.

2144
01:21:05,988 --> 01:21:07,994
And, you, our funding fathers were

2145
01:21:08,464 --> 01:21:10,721
amazing people who designed a system that's lasted

2146
01:21:11,020 --> 01:21:13,737
quite a long time and has been tested

2147
01:21:13,737 --> 01:21:14,296
by stress.

2148
01:21:15,508 --> 01:21:17,341
In ways. We we haven't seen before. And

2149
01:21:17,420 --> 01:21:18,854
I'm impressed by how well it's done, And

2150
01:21:19,013 --> 01:21:20,926
I think it's important to look at that

2151
01:21:20,926 --> 01:21:21,881
when you're thinking about,

2152
01:21:22,519 --> 01:21:23,953
you know, whether the end of the world

2153
01:21:23,953 --> 01:21:25,962
is coming you know, in November.

2154
01:21:26,838 --> 01:21:28,114
And if you have thoughts on that, you

2155
01:21:28,114 --> 01:21:30,029
wanna add more on Cardio you want.

2156
01:21:32,581 --> 01:21:34,358
Yeah. I'll say something on

2157
01:21:36,109 --> 01:21:36,430
the...

2158
01:21:38,510 --> 01:21:40,770
You need to be solution oriented

2159
01:21:41,229 --> 01:21:43,729
and you need to think about

2160
01:21:44,123 --> 01:21:44,623
what

2161
01:21:45,159 --> 01:21:45,659
actually

2162
01:21:46,275 --> 01:21:48,767
are things I stand for? What are my

2163
01:21:48,984 --> 01:21:49,484
actual

2164
01:21:49,861 --> 01:21:50,361
values

2165
01:21:50,817 --> 01:21:51,317
and

2166
01:21:51,707 --> 01:21:55,225
which of them is it proper to think

2167
01:21:55,677 --> 01:21:56,177
that

2168
01:21:56,948 --> 01:21:59,092
government should be enforcing these.

2169
01:21:59,984 --> 01:22:00,484
So

2170
01:22:00,944 --> 01:22:03,185
to think about... And and so part of

2171
01:22:03,185 --> 01:22:05,425
what to get out of tribalism is to

2172
01:22:05,425 --> 01:22:07,104
try to ascend to the level of having

2173
01:22:07,104 --> 01:22:10,868
some actual ideas. And some actual principles. So

2174
01:22:10,868 --> 01:22:12,085
if you're worried

2175
01:22:12,699 --> 01:22:13,018
about,

2176
01:22:14,292 --> 01:22:16,304
say, the a second Trump presidency

2177
01:22:17,092 --> 01:22:19,718
of what he's gonna do isn't part of

2178
01:22:19,718 --> 01:22:20,695
the issue

2179
01:22:21,070 --> 01:22:24,810
that the president now at the executive branch

2180
01:22:24,810 --> 01:22:25,707
of the government

2181
01:22:26,018 --> 01:22:27,606
has way too much power.

2182
01:22:28,639 --> 01:22:30,466
And if you think of it like that

2183
01:22:30,466 --> 01:22:32,531
that it can't be... Oh, yeah, That's fine

2184
01:22:32,531 --> 01:22:34,612
if my guys in power But if the

2185
01:22:34,612 --> 01:22:35,805
other guy's in power, then all of a

2186
01:22:35,805 --> 01:22:38,293
sudden, it's a problem. The... That's a tribal

2187
01:22:38,668 --> 01:22:40,817
processing of it, a principled and

2188
01:22:41,468 --> 01:22:42,904
perspective my the ideas and values,

2189
01:22:43,462 --> 01:22:44,600
it's a problem.

2190
01:22:45,056 --> 01:22:46,114
If the presidency

2191
01:22:46,492 --> 01:22:48,587
has the power that the modern presidency

2192
01:22:48,964 --> 01:22:49,283
has.

2193
01:22:49,841 --> 01:22:51,452
And If you think of it like that,

2194
01:22:51,692 --> 01:22:53,847
there's all kinds of things that then you

2195
01:22:53,847 --> 01:22:54,507
can be

2196
01:22:55,284 --> 01:22:58,578
both advocating for, but looking for candidates.

2197
01:22:59,929 --> 01:23:00,247
Who...

2198
01:23:00,884 --> 01:23:02,635
Yeah. Think of that as a problem, and

2199
01:23:02,635 --> 01:23:05,580
they can be on either political side who

2200
01:23:05,580 --> 01:23:09,021
think, yeah, congress has to... Take some back

2201
01:23:09,021 --> 01:23:11,277
some power that it's ce

2202
01:23:11,734 --> 01:23:12,952
to the

2203
01:23:13,729 --> 01:23:16,616
executive branch and at... And... I mean, Ran

2204
01:23:16,616 --> 01:23:18,473
was already talking about this is part for

2205
01:23:18,532 --> 01:23:20,927
analysis of Kennedy of and that we're getting

2206
01:23:20,927 --> 01:23:22,145
an authoritarian

2207
01:23:22,523 --> 01:23:23,720
and moving towards...

2208
01:23:24,770 --> 01:23:27,338
A kind of fascism is that Congress

2209
01:23:28,032 --> 01:23:30,418
is... Has ce so much power to the

2210
01:23:30,418 --> 01:23:30,918
presidency,

2211
01:23:31,388 --> 01:23:34,100
And that's a problem. And it's a problem

2212
01:23:34,100 --> 01:23:37,370
regardless of who is the particular oc of

2213
01:23:37,370 --> 01:23:38,109
the office

2214
01:23:38,805 --> 01:23:40,401
in the in the next year or the

2215
01:23:40,401 --> 01:23:42,731
next 2 years or the next 4 years.

2216
01:23:43,369 --> 01:23:46,105
The... And, I mean, this is the the

2217
01:23:46,563 --> 01:23:48,239
founding file you brought up the founding. They

2218
01:23:48,239 --> 01:23:50,369
created a country in a new country, 2

2219
01:23:50,728 --> 01:23:54,388
by thinking about the principles and ideas that

2220
01:23:54,388 --> 01:23:55,582
should govern government.

2221
01:23:56,298 --> 01:23:59,810
And unless you're as a citizen willing to

2222
01:23:59,810 --> 01:24:02,748
think about that and to think about it

2223
01:24:02,748 --> 01:24:03,248
as

2224
01:24:05,210 --> 01:24:06,957
the the in a, in a...

2225
01:24:07,609 --> 01:24:08,109
Consistent

2226
01:24:09,046 --> 01:24:09,546
principled

2227
01:24:10,323 --> 01:24:12,637
way, which is what the founding fathers did.

2228
01:24:12,957 --> 01:24:15,271
Then you're actually not on the site of

2229
01:24:15,511 --> 01:24:19,055
America, You're not trying to continue the American

2230
01:24:19,591 --> 01:24:19,989
experiment,

2231
01:24:20,626 --> 01:24:22,857
because it if we are a nation of

2232
01:24:22,857 --> 01:24:23,096
ideas,

2233
01:24:23,669 --> 01:24:25,261
we're not a nation of tribes.

2234
01:24:25,818 --> 01:24:28,524
But first and foremost to make that real

2235
01:24:28,524 --> 01:24:30,594
in your own mind. You have to understand

2236
01:24:30,594 --> 01:24:33,398
the ideas that led to the creation and

2237
01:24:33,398 --> 01:24:35,789
the formation of this new form of government,

2238
01:24:35,948 --> 01:24:38,442
and you really have to understand those. And

2239
01:24:38,659 --> 01:24:39,159
basically

2240
01:24:40,426 --> 01:24:42,644
nobody today is helping you.

2241
01:24:43,595 --> 01:24:45,021
So you have to do some of your

2242
01:24:45,021 --> 01:24:47,027
own work, and this is part of

2243
01:24:47,413 --> 01:24:50,454
the 1 of the reasons to read Rand

2244
01:24:51,701 --> 01:24:52,201
is

2245
01:24:52,813 --> 01:24:55,909
she has... I think the most profound understanding

2246
01:24:55,909 --> 01:24:57,458
of what the American

2247
01:24:57,834 --> 01:24:58,334
revolution

2248
01:24:59,029 --> 01:24:59,825
actually was.

2249
01:25:00,860 --> 01:25:03,329
But what are the deepest ideas that led

2250
01:25:03,329 --> 01:25:05,082
to it and and which it's grounded,

2251
01:25:05,480 --> 01:25:07,957
the And what are then the ideas that

2252
01:25:07,957 --> 01:25:09,490
have to be resurrected,

2253
01:25:10,818 --> 01:25:12,327
upheld and defended.

2254
01:25:12,899 --> 01:25:14,812
If you're gonna... If you want to be

2255
01:25:14,812 --> 01:25:17,863
on the side of seeing the American experiment

2256
01:25:18,159 --> 01:25:18,399
continue.

2257
01:25:22,716 --> 01:25:24,786
Just 1 final thought on on my part.

2258
01:25:25,024 --> 01:25:26,798
You you raised the

2259
01:25:27,652 --> 01:25:30,694
question, how 1 can what 1 individual can

2260
01:25:30,694 --> 01:25:32,446
do in their own experience and I thought

2261
01:25:32,605 --> 01:25:34,596
I I agree with what you brought out

2262
01:25:34,596 --> 01:25:36,350
on car. I I would just pick up

2263
01:25:36,350 --> 01:25:38,023
a thread from earlier on the conversation, which

2264
01:25:38,102 --> 01:25:39,947
I I think comp be overstated.

2265
01:25:41,937 --> 01:25:42,176
This...

2266
01:25:43,449 --> 01:25:45,597
Phenomenon, we're talking about the the the growth

2267
01:25:45,597 --> 01:25:47,826
of tribalism different manifestations of it the way

2268
01:25:47,826 --> 01:25:48,199
it

2269
01:25:48,718 --> 01:25:50,175
interacts with politics

2270
01:25:50,871 --> 01:25:53,922
and the way foster this climate of normalizing

2271
01:25:54,220 --> 01:25:54,618
violence.

2272
01:25:56,612 --> 01:25:57,112
You

2273
01:25:57,505 --> 01:26:00,005
have to choose if you're going to be

2274
01:26:00,064 --> 01:26:02,625
swept into it or you're going to take

2275
01:26:02,625 --> 01:26:05,744
conscious efforts in your own thinking every day,

2276
01:26:06,159 --> 01:26:07,699
and with in every conversation

2277
01:26:08,159 --> 01:26:10,880
to be independent and to choose to think

2278
01:26:10,880 --> 01:26:12,880
about what's true and what's good by your

2279
01:26:12,880 --> 01:26:13,840
own judgment.

2280
01:26:14,969 --> 01:26:17,346
Irrespective of what people who are in your

2281
01:26:17,346 --> 01:26:18,560
community in your

2282
01:26:18,931 --> 01:26:21,389
network and your professional associations,

2283
01:26:22,038 --> 01:26:23,470
in your tribe or how you think of

2284
01:26:23,470 --> 01:26:25,697
it regardless of what they say. And that

2285
01:26:25,697 --> 01:26:28,322
is 1 of the deepest lessons you can

2286
01:26:28,322 --> 01:26:30,982
take for mind which is it's a moral

2287
01:26:31,276 --> 01:26:34,213
virtue to be independent to think and put

2288
01:26:34,213 --> 01:26:35,721
nothing above the judgment of your own mind.

2289
01:26:36,118 --> 01:26:38,438
And ultimately, that's the tonic, man as you

2290
01:26:38,438 --> 01:26:41,065
put it ben, that's the the remedy for

2291
01:26:41,065 --> 01:26:42,839
tribalism is the more people

2292
01:26:43,295 --> 01:26:46,400
choose to think independently more engage with the

2293
01:26:46,400 --> 01:26:49,068
4 facts, the more they choose to question

2294
01:26:49,924 --> 01:26:52,555
what they hear from even trusted sources and

2295
01:26:52,555 --> 01:26:55,426
from authority figures and people they respect and

2296
01:26:55,426 --> 01:26:55,960
people who are

2297
01:26:56,555 --> 01:26:59,019
exerting psychological pressure on the way from everybody,

2298
01:26:59,177 --> 01:27:01,006
the more they think independently.

2299
01:27:01,721 --> 01:27:03,310
And the more you can encourage in the

2300
01:27:03,310 --> 01:27:05,867
the more you model it yourself, the better

2301
01:27:05,867 --> 01:27:08,725
this society will become, and the better your

2302
01:27:08,725 --> 01:27:09,757
life will be, and the better...

2303
01:27:10,391 --> 01:27:12,059
The people around you will be because you

2304
01:27:12,059 --> 01:27:14,059
will choose different people to be around. Because

2305
01:27:14,059 --> 01:27:15,596
you won't see through

2306
01:27:16,215 --> 01:27:18,609
the the ways in which tribalism is affected

2307
01:27:18,609 --> 01:27:20,605
both yourself and other people in... And it's

2308
01:27:20,605 --> 01:27:22,521
important here not to think of this as

2309
01:27:22,521 --> 01:27:23,180
a binary

2310
01:27:23,493 --> 01:27:25,806
if someone has some tribal aspect in their

2311
01:27:25,806 --> 01:27:28,040
thinking, they're untouchable, and you can't deal with

2312
01:27:28,040 --> 01:27:30,033
them. And I... That's not a healthy way

2313
01:27:30,033 --> 01:27:31,788
to think of it, and it's true, there

2314
01:27:31,788 --> 01:27:33,558
are lots of people who have mix mixtures,

2315
01:27:33,717 --> 01:27:35,788
and it's profound mixtures and also the different

2316
01:27:35,788 --> 01:27:37,643
areas of they lives. But just be thoughtful

2317
01:27:37,701 --> 01:27:40,569
about how to engage with people, even and

2318
01:27:40,569 --> 01:27:43,314
especially people you disagree with whatever this voting

2319
01:27:44,011 --> 01:27:46,643
preferences are. And so there's a lot that

2320
01:27:46,643 --> 01:27:49,115
you in your own life can and in

2321
01:27:49,115 --> 01:27:50,870
my view, you should be doing because it's

2322
01:27:50,870 --> 01:27:52,466
good for you and it's and it has

2323
01:27:52,466 --> 01:27:55,016
ram ramifications for the people around you for

2324
01:27:55,016 --> 01:27:57,155
the society the... I think if you agree

2325
01:27:57,155 --> 01:27:59,716
with the idea of freedom and human progress

2326
01:28:00,024 --> 01:28:03,131
and the values that I ran uphold, then

2327
01:28:03,131 --> 01:28:04,884
that... That's something you should want to do

2328
01:28:04,884 --> 01:28:06,636
and learn to become better at over time.

2329
01:28:06,795 --> 01:28:08,547
And I think that each of us has

2330
01:28:08,547 --> 01:28:09,756
that ability to do.

2331
01:28:13,727 --> 01:28:15,792
So there is a couple of super chat

2332
01:28:15,792 --> 01:28:17,381
questions that came in that I think are

2333
01:28:17,381 --> 01:28:19,469
what worth answering before we wrap up,

2334
01:28:20,904 --> 01:28:23,159
1 about some of the

2335
01:28:23,776 --> 01:28:26,168
political analysis we've done, 1 that's more about,

2336
01:28:28,891 --> 01:28:31,937
issue of civil discourse. So we got a

2337
01:28:32,073 --> 01:28:33,823
super chat from Joe. Thank you, Joe.

2338
01:28:34,634 --> 01:28:36,623
Who asks given that the right so often

2339
01:28:36,623 --> 01:28:38,931
follows behind the left and left is by

2340
01:28:38,931 --> 01:28:40,602
far the driver of the culture, which seems

2341
01:28:40,602 --> 01:28:43,163
to be true here also isn't it a

2342
01:28:43,163 --> 01:28:45,073
mistake to treat them as if they are

2343
01:28:45,073 --> 01:28:47,541
equally violent and equally the problem.

2344
01:28:48,893 --> 01:28:49,848
I'm not quite sure if that's what we're

2345
01:28:49,848 --> 01:28:50,246
were doing, but,

2346
01:28:52,091 --> 01:28:54,074
Ka elon have give thoughts on that question.

2347
01:28:54,788 --> 01:28:56,773
Yeah. I'll I'll say something and then you

2348
01:28:56,773 --> 01:28:57,511
guys can

2349
01:28:58,042 --> 01:28:59,494
add a few things. But

2350
01:29:00,185 --> 01:29:00,239
yeah

2351
01:29:01,078 --> 01:29:03,737
I think the basic premise of the questions

2352
01:29:03,876 --> 01:29:05,414
wrong, of thinking

2353
01:29:05,873 --> 01:29:08,930
that what's the driver of the culture

2354
01:29:09,323 --> 01:29:12,418
in political terms. So it's... The left is

2355
01:29:12,418 --> 01:29:14,958
more the driver of the culture than the

2356
01:29:14,958 --> 01:29:17,521
right. The driver of the culture

2357
01:29:18,069 --> 01:29:20,001
is the basic

2358
01:29:20,456 --> 01:29:21,570
ideas at work,

2359
01:29:22,525 --> 01:29:24,832
and in the end, it's philosophical ideas at

2360
01:29:24,832 --> 01:29:27,005
work, So if you put it, and I

2361
01:29:27,005 --> 01:29:29,645
think along... You... I forget what the context

2362
01:29:29,645 --> 01:29:31,164
was where you brought this up. But if

2363
01:29:31,164 --> 01:29:32,625
you think of it as

2364
01:29:33,085 --> 01:29:34,445
we had an enlightenment.

2365
01:29:35,017 --> 01:29:37,957
And the end product of the enlightenment was

2366
01:29:37,957 --> 01:29:41,055
the creation of the United States of America.

2367
01:29:41,294 --> 01:29:43,122
It's the last great achievement.

2368
01:29:43,613 --> 01:29:45,444
Of the enlightenment and they and it's the

2369
01:29:45,444 --> 01:29:46,421
great political

2370
01:29:46,956 --> 01:29:48,650
achievement of the enlightenment

2371
01:29:49,423 --> 01:29:50,958
and that what happened

2372
01:29:51,349 --> 01:29:51,929
at an

2373
01:29:52,307 --> 01:29:53,046
intellectual level

2374
01:29:53,425 --> 01:29:56,858
is a counter enlightenment, and the kind of

2375
01:29:56,858 --> 01:29:57,358
rallying

2376
01:29:57,895 --> 01:30:00,311
of counter enlightenment forces

2377
01:30:01,024 --> 01:30:03,038
that were never adequately

2378
01:30:04,531 --> 01:30:07,480
answered and opposed. I think it's only till

2379
01:30:07,480 --> 01:30:08,937
you get Ina iran's philosophy

2380
01:30:09,328 --> 01:30:12,353
Do you get an answer and a response,

2381
01:30:12,910 --> 01:30:13,410
an

2382
01:30:14,104 --> 01:30:16,492
intellectual rational correct response?

2383
01:30:17,222 --> 01:30:18,755
To the counter

2384
01:30:19,127 --> 01:30:19,627
enlightenment

2385
01:30:20,079 --> 01:30:20,555
philosophy.

2386
01:30:20,952 --> 01:30:22,301
And I think in the end, that's what

2387
01:30:22,301 --> 01:30:24,704
she saw herself as doing, that her great

2388
01:30:24,760 --> 01:30:25,260
opponent

2389
01:30:25,569 --> 01:30:27,712
She thought of as a manual con. So

2390
01:30:27,712 --> 01:30:30,092
not some political figure that she'd dislike, not

2391
01:30:30,251 --> 01:30:32,631
Kennedy even though she really disliked... Her great

2392
01:30:32,631 --> 01:30:35,270
opponent was a manual con. Because he was

2393
01:30:35,270 --> 01:30:37,423
the leader of the counter enlightenment.

2394
01:30:38,060 --> 01:30:41,488
And I think that analysis is right. And

2395
01:30:41,488 --> 01:30:42,126
so it's...

2396
01:30:42,779 --> 01:30:45,920
It's not a left right issue. It's when

2397
01:30:45,979 --> 01:30:47,439
and to the extent

2398
01:30:47,979 --> 01:30:49,899
that people are on the side of the

2399
01:30:49,899 --> 01:30:50,859
counter enlightenment.

2400
01:30:51,340 --> 01:30:54,475
There anti American, and it's true

2401
01:30:55,482 --> 01:30:58,337
that the you can think of the left

2402
01:30:58,337 --> 01:30:59,472
as the socialist

2403
01:31:00,259 --> 01:31:02,197
and the even with communism

2404
01:31:03,376 --> 01:31:03,876
dominated

2405
01:31:04,654 --> 01:31:06,732
a lot of the twentieth century. Dominic a

2406
01:31:06,732 --> 01:31:08,330
lot of the time that I rand was

2407
01:31:08,330 --> 01:31:08,570
writing.

2408
01:31:09,385 --> 01:31:09,885
Dominated

2409
01:31:10,343 --> 01:31:10,843
in.

2410
01:31:11,302 --> 01:31:13,080
So it's true that the universities

2411
01:31:13,459 --> 01:31:15,057
lean left politically,

2412
01:31:15,457 --> 01:31:18,189
But that's a symptom not the caused they've

2413
01:31:18,189 --> 01:31:19,409
lean left politically

2414
01:31:19,789 --> 01:31:21,710
because they turned against the enlightenment and part

2415
01:31:21,710 --> 01:31:24,030
of what was essential to the enlightenment was

2416
01:31:24,030 --> 01:31:24,530
an

2417
01:31:24,909 --> 01:31:25,409
individual

2418
01:31:25,789 --> 01:31:26,770
pro reason

2419
01:31:27,643 --> 01:31:31,153
perspective on human life. That was replaced. And

2420
01:31:31,153 --> 01:31:34,662
the consequence politically will be, you'll think not

2421
01:31:34,662 --> 01:31:38,022
in individual terms, but collective terms and you'll

2422
01:31:38,022 --> 01:31:38,578
have some...

2423
01:31:39,213 --> 01:31:41,356
You'll be in some way in Am with

2424
01:31:41,356 --> 01:31:44,213
state, communism or fascism. And the reason that

2425
01:31:44,213 --> 01:31:46,953
rose in the twentieth century cost, the grow

2426
01:31:47,251 --> 01:31:49,803
globe is because the counter enlightenment forces we're

2427
01:31:49,803 --> 01:31:50,042
winning.

2428
01:31:51,000 --> 01:31:53,154
So you can think of who are the

2429
01:31:53,154 --> 01:31:55,626
leaders of the counter enlightenment forces.

2430
01:31:56,118 --> 01:31:57,869
And there's a way in which you can

2431
01:31:57,869 --> 01:31:59,961
think of that as it's left, but that's

2432
01:32:00,018 --> 01:32:02,427
a symptom not the cause. And

2433
01:32:02,962 --> 01:32:06,403
part of Why Ran really... Turned against the

2434
01:32:06,403 --> 01:32:06,721
right.

2435
01:32:07,440 --> 01:32:10,573
So she was more sympathetic with the Republicans

2436
01:32:11,430 --> 01:32:13,048
early on in her

2437
01:32:13,426 --> 01:32:16,005
intellectual career and trying to give them

2438
01:32:16,456 --> 01:32:17,883
ammunition and even the conservatives,

2439
01:32:18,438 --> 01:32:21,425
there's some kind of favorable commentary on the

2440
01:32:21,864 --> 01:32:24,104
the more they turn towards religion.

2441
01:32:24,904 --> 01:32:26,264
The more it was,

2442
01:32:26,984 --> 01:32:29,870
you're not part you're not even trying to

2443
01:32:29,870 --> 01:32:31,856
be part of the solution. You're part of

2444
01:32:31,856 --> 01:32:32,412
the problem.

2445
01:32:32,968 --> 01:32:35,533
And because part of what the counter enlightenment

2446
01:32:35,908 --> 01:32:39,427
forces war, and what Ka program was to

2447
01:32:39,427 --> 01:32:39,927
revive

2448
01:32:40,385 --> 01:32:44,612
religion to regain respect ability for religion against

2449
01:32:44,612 --> 01:32:46,926
the enlightenment that was doing away with religion.

2450
01:32:47,497 --> 01:32:50,520
And when... So why didn't she support Reagan?

2451
01:32:50,997 --> 01:32:51,497
Reagan

2452
01:32:51,872 --> 01:32:54,074
was bringing these people back

2453
01:32:54,593 --> 01:32:57,546
into politics, and she commented in these terms

2454
01:32:57,546 --> 01:33:00,180
about they're taking us back to the middle

2455
01:33:00,180 --> 01:33:01,957
ages, which means pre enlightenment

2456
01:33:03,302 --> 01:33:05,447
and they have to be seen as the

2457
01:33:05,447 --> 01:33:07,037
enemy. And if you think of it like

2458
01:33:07,037 --> 01:33:09,818
that, then it's whoever to the and to

2459
01:33:09,818 --> 01:33:12,536
whatever extent, they're on the side of the

2460
01:33:12,536 --> 01:33:13,729
anti enlightenment.

2461
01:33:15,480 --> 01:33:16,276
They're the problem,

2462
01:33:16,833 --> 01:33:18,345
and it's at the right...

2463
01:33:19,239 --> 01:33:20,517
What would be thought of is the right

2464
01:33:20,517 --> 01:33:22,455
in America is so

2465
01:33:23,314 --> 01:33:26,131
embedded with religion and religions the anti

2466
01:33:26,764 --> 01:33:28,757
of the enlightenment. So you can't think of

2467
01:33:28,757 --> 01:33:31,571
it as, like, sort of their hap followers

2468
01:33:32,346 --> 01:33:35,298
who aren't the cause of anything. They're part

2469
01:33:35,298 --> 01:33:36,277
of the cause

2470
01:33:36,669 --> 01:33:38,444
of the present descent

2471
01:33:38,899 --> 01:33:41,448
into rational and tribalism, and they have to

2472
01:33:41,448 --> 01:33:43,997
be seen as such and named as such.

2473
01:33:47,684 --> 01:33:49,684
Let's then take a look at the the

2474
01:33:49,684 --> 01:33:52,085
the last question came in, this 1 comes

2475
01:33:52,085 --> 01:33:54,644
from Mary. Thank you, Marlene. Also with Super

2476
01:33:54,644 --> 01:33:55,659
chat. People are

2477
01:33:56,260 --> 01:33:58,577
often more open to a reasonable discussion 1

2478
01:33:58,577 --> 01:33:59,396
on 1

2479
01:33:59,855 --> 01:34:02,333
than in groups if you're polite honest and

2480
01:34:02,333 --> 01:34:04,730
ask questions and don't pretend to know more

2481
01:34:04,730 --> 01:34:05,369
than you do.

2482
01:34:06,023 --> 01:34:06,740
Thoughts on this.

2483
01:34:08,974 --> 01:34:11,149
I I endorse that

2484
01:34:12,563 --> 01:34:13,998
major parts of that because I I think

2485
01:34:13,998 --> 01:34:16,404
it's important that If I take the question,

2486
01:34:17,917 --> 01:34:19,372
if I understand it correctly, it's

2487
01:34:20,146 --> 01:34:21,044
be objective

2488
01:34:21,500 --> 01:34:23,012
in what you do and don't know.

2489
01:34:23,664 --> 01:34:25,364
And try to engage with people

2490
01:34:26,545 --> 01:34:28,385
in that way. And I think the this

2491
01:34:28,385 --> 01:34:30,064
the additional feature of doing it 1 on

2492
01:34:30,064 --> 01:34:31,664
1 versus and groups. I I think 1

2493
01:34:31,664 --> 01:34:33,752
way to think of that is it lessen

2494
01:34:33,752 --> 01:34:35,497
the pressure on someone if they feel like

2495
01:34:35,497 --> 01:34:37,718
they need to be conforming to particular view

2496
01:34:37,718 --> 01:34:39,146
if they're on their own, they might not

2497
01:34:39,146 --> 01:34:39,914
be that

2498
01:34:40,273 --> 01:34:41,729
feel like, oh, I'm gonna be

2499
01:34:43,060 --> 01:34:45,848
seen as questioning the Orthodox position I'm gonna

2500
01:34:45,848 --> 01:34:47,680
be seen as as a trader to my

2501
01:34:47,680 --> 01:34:49,530
group and how could I So I think

2502
01:34:49,530 --> 01:34:52,350
there's important things to do in the questions

2503
01:34:52,570 --> 01:34:55,050
setup up that are right to do. 1

2504
01:34:55,050 --> 01:34:56,909
thing I will add miss something that's comp

2505
01:34:57,304 --> 01:34:57,804
other

2506
01:34:58,176 --> 01:34:58,676
conversations

2507
01:34:59,524 --> 01:35:01,347
that when when trying to reach somebody,

2508
01:35:01,903 --> 01:35:04,996
it's very unusual for 1 conversation to be

2509
01:35:04,996 --> 01:35:06,845
some efficient to change their mind or even

2510
01:35:06,845 --> 01:35:07,804
to make some headway,

2511
01:35:08,442 --> 01:35:10,140
it often takes multiple

2512
01:35:10,518 --> 01:35:12,433
conversations from different angles, and it it really

2513
01:35:12,433 --> 01:35:14,211
depends on your motivation, but

2514
01:35:14,764 --> 01:35:17,020
just to have a realistic view of what

2515
01:35:17,158 --> 01:35:20,033
can be accomplished in a conversation, even when

2516
01:35:20,033 --> 01:35:21,550
you're doing it in the most effective way,

2517
01:35:21,630 --> 01:35:23,466
and you you been in An ga, your

2518
01:35:23,466 --> 01:35:23,966
your

2519
01:35:24,438 --> 01:35:26,590
very seasoned teachers, and you you see this

2520
01:35:26,590 --> 01:35:28,502
all the time in the classroom. You need

2521
01:35:28,502 --> 01:35:30,176
to engage with people in different ways and

2522
01:35:30,176 --> 01:35:31,531
put a point in different ways. And I

2523
01:35:31,531 --> 01:35:34,204
think that's it's useful to think of certain

2524
01:35:34,425 --> 01:35:34,925
conversations

2525
01:35:35,545 --> 01:35:36,045
as,

2526
01:35:37,625 --> 01:35:39,224
know, try to reach somebody and it's not

2527
01:35:39,224 --> 01:35:41,627
just sharing your perspective, It's... You're you're trying

2528
01:35:41,627 --> 01:35:44,332
to present and and and uncover their assumptions

2529
01:35:44,332 --> 01:35:46,400
in their errors and help them through that.

2530
01:35:46,654 --> 01:35:48,828
And that's an important part of

2531
01:35:49,364 --> 01:35:51,038
having a view of what kind of conversation

2532
01:35:51,038 --> 01:35:52,952
you're having as opposed to just... It it's

2533
01:35:52,952 --> 01:35:55,277
a transmission of your view to them. Well,

2534
01:35:55,515 --> 01:35:57,106
that's... That is 1 kind of conversation. But

2535
01:35:57,106 --> 01:35:58,379
if your goal is to get through to

2536
01:35:58,379 --> 01:36:00,288
them, you have to know that there's a

2537
01:36:00,288 --> 01:36:02,474
process, and it it often takes... Multiple

2538
01:36:02,849 --> 01:36:03,406
iterations of that.

2539
01:36:07,781 --> 01:36:09,940
1 thing I might add about this question

2540
01:36:09,940 --> 01:36:11,765
is, I think part of the reason why

2541
01:36:11,765 --> 01:36:14,065
people are often more open to reasonable discussion

2542
01:36:14,065 --> 01:36:14,700
1 on 1,

2543
01:36:16,144 --> 01:36:17,742
is that when you're having a face to

2544
01:36:17,742 --> 01:36:19,979
face conversation with someone, you know who they

2545
01:36:19,979 --> 01:36:20,298
are,

2546
01:36:21,337 --> 01:36:22,935
and they know that you know who they

2547
01:36:22,935 --> 01:36:24,942
are, And this is a consideration that does

2548
01:36:24,942 --> 01:36:27,590
not often apply, for example, to online

2549
01:36:27,965 --> 01:36:28,283
discourse.

2550
01:36:30,273 --> 01:36:32,102
I think part of the reason that...

2551
01:36:33,313 --> 01:36:35,864
Conspiracies, for example, gets so magnified and,

2552
01:36:36,742 --> 01:36:39,135
social media. Is there so many people who

2553
01:36:39,135 --> 01:36:41,071
are hiding behind anonymous

2554
01:36:41,687 --> 01:36:42,539
or pseudo synonymous

2555
01:36:43,135 --> 01:36:46,153
accounts. And if we're thinking about the question

2556
01:36:46,153 --> 01:36:48,296
of how can we lower the temperature,

2557
01:36:49,011 --> 01:36:51,332
how can we be more objective Yeah, in

2558
01:36:51,332 --> 01:36:52,845
our arguments with people,

2559
01:36:53,404 --> 01:36:54,599
on political subjects.

2560
01:36:55,715 --> 01:36:57,707
If you're a participant in online discussion there,

2561
01:36:57,865 --> 01:36:59,635
I think, this question some people in the

2562
01:36:59,635 --> 01:37:01,229
current Youtube chad might ask themselves,

2563
01:37:02,026 --> 01:37:04,360
is the things that you're saying right now

2564
01:37:04,975 --> 01:37:07,222
to your opponents to the people you're... Commenting

2565
01:37:07,222 --> 01:37:08,898
on, would you say these? Would you say

2566
01:37:08,898 --> 01:37:10,890
these things if your actual name and identity

2567
01:37:10,890 --> 01:37:12,347
were attached to them? Or

2568
01:37:12,804 --> 01:37:15,037
is is there's something that would hold you

2569
01:37:15,037 --> 01:37:16,487
back? Commenting about that.

2570
01:37:17,602 --> 01:37:19,196
Would would you would you say the same

2571
01:37:19,196 --> 01:37:20,869
thing same same things if everybody knew who

2572
01:37:20,869 --> 01:37:22,702
was saying that them if you were accountable

2573
01:37:22,702 --> 01:37:24,809
for them that's a fair question

2574
01:37:25,343 --> 01:37:27,809
worth asking yourself when you get involved and,

2575
01:37:27,968 --> 01:37:29,002
I think these social media,

2576
01:37:30,449 --> 01:37:30,768
discussions.

2577
01:37:32,520 --> 01:37:33,555
So let's

2578
01:37:34,033 --> 01:37:36,424
let's start to wrap up, then. Thank you

2579
01:37:36,424 --> 01:37:38,336
again for those super chat questions that came

2580
01:37:38,336 --> 01:37:39,744
in. I'm sorry. We weren't able to get

2581
01:37:39,945 --> 01:37:40,425
all of them.

2582
01:37:41,625 --> 01:37:44,425
I did want to share with our audience,

2583
01:37:44,744 --> 01:37:45,244
1

2584
01:37:45,625 --> 01:37:46,585
resource in particular,

2585
01:37:47,716 --> 01:37:49,626
that I think touches on many of the

2586
01:37:49,626 --> 01:37:51,057
issues that we talked about today. And this

2587
01:37:51,057 --> 01:37:51,376
is,

2588
01:37:52,330 --> 01:37:53,682
a lecture that Ina rand gave,

2589
01:37:54,492 --> 01:37:55,628
in 19

2590
01:37:56,322 --> 01:37:57,037
72,

2591
01:37:57,356 --> 01:37:58,470
a nation's unity,

2592
01:37:59,265 --> 01:38:02,545
in part commenting on, the Mc government campaign,

2593
01:38:02,704 --> 01:38:03,762
but more broadly

2594
01:38:04,300 --> 01:38:08,149
talking about the issue of political tribalism and

2595
01:38:08,207 --> 01:38:10,702
how it connects to the mixed economy and

2596
01:38:11,014 --> 01:38:13,962
the kind of rhetoric associated with it, and

2597
01:38:13,962 --> 01:38:16,431
the the social dynamics by which people are

2598
01:38:16,431 --> 01:38:18,821
forced into political tribes because of the mixed

2599
01:38:18,821 --> 01:38:20,197
economy and the kind of

2600
01:38:21,543 --> 01:38:23,873
a tribal leaders that they end up following

2601
01:38:24,248 --> 01:38:27,193
when that happens, it's especially important to note

2602
01:38:27,193 --> 01:38:29,907
the, of, quasi fictional story that she tells

2603
01:38:29,907 --> 01:38:32,073
beginning of that lecture about somebody who's

2604
01:38:33,636 --> 01:38:36,095
deciding how to become political politically affiliated,

2605
01:38:36,988 --> 01:38:39,065
in that kind of atmosphere. Highly recommended to

2606
01:38:39,065 --> 01:38:40,344
we posted earlier to

2607
01:38:41,063 --> 01:38:43,320
institutes various social media accounts

2608
01:38:43,872 --> 01:38:45,941
earlier this week. So definitely check that out.

2609
01:38:46,737 --> 01:38:48,032
If you enjoyed this podcast,

2610
01:38:48,725 --> 01:38:49,123
please

2611
01:38:49,680 --> 01:38:50,953
subscribe to our channel on Youtube, if you

2612
01:38:50,953 --> 01:38:52,168
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2613
01:38:52,958 --> 01:38:54,634
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2614
01:38:54,634 --> 01:38:56,389
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2615
01:38:56,389 --> 01:38:58,464
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01:38:58,464 --> 01:38:59,980
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2617
01:39:00,792 --> 01:39:03,019
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2618
01:39:03,019 --> 01:39:04,212
on it to share it with your friends

2619
01:39:04,212 --> 01:39:06,121
that helps attract new viewers Same thing if

2620
01:39:06,121 --> 01:39:07,806
you're watching us on Facebook.

2621
01:39:08,761 --> 01:39:10,351
And if you have questions about anything that

2622
01:39:10,351 --> 01:39:11,942
came up today or if you have suggestions

2623
01:39:11,942 --> 01:39:15,122
about future episodes or other just questions about

2624
01:39:15,122 --> 01:39:17,244
objective with philosophy, please send us an email

2625
01:39:17,284 --> 01:39:20,001
a new ideal at ina ranch dot org.

2626
01:39:20,400 --> 01:39:22,238
We read everything that comes in, try to

2627
01:39:22,238 --> 01:39:23,756
reply to as many of them as we

2628
01:39:23,756 --> 01:39:24,289
can. The

2629
01:39:25,128 --> 01:39:25,608
and

2630
01:39:26,886 --> 01:39:29,543
we will continue to be discussing issues

2631
01:39:29,922 --> 01:39:31,920
related to recent politics,

2632
01:39:32,493 --> 01:39:34,271
in the next few weeks

2633
01:39:34,968 --> 01:39:36,666
on this podcast. So,

2634
01:39:37,123 --> 01:39:39,518
please stay tuned for that. We will be

2635
01:39:39,518 --> 01:39:40,555
back with more analysis,

2636
01:39:41,128 --> 01:39:43,435
of current events from an objective as perspective,

2637
01:39:44,072 --> 01:39:45,981
we thank you for your time today and

2638
01:39:45,981 --> 01:39:48,543
for your support for the Institute And thank

2639
01:39:48,543 --> 01:39:50,140
you on Courtney Line for joining me to

2640
01:39:50,140 --> 01:39:51,656
talk about. It's very important today.

2641
01:39:53,493 --> 01:39:56,148
You've been listening to new ideal, a podcast

2642
01:39:56,207 --> 01:39:57,300
from the Ina rand ins.

2643
01:39:58,291 --> 01:39:59,957
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2644
01:39:59,957 --> 01:40:02,495
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2645
01:40:02,495 --> 01:40:03,527
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2646
01:40:04,494 --> 01:40:06,805
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2647
01:40:06,805 --> 01:40:08,079
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2648
01:40:08,797 --> 01:40:11,267
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2649
01:40:11,267 --> 01:40:11,506
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2650
01:40:12,069 --> 01:40:15,215
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