1 00:00:03,959 --> 00:00:06,679 There's something very wrong in that we've run 2 00:00:06,679 --> 00:00:09,170 the world on the notion. That it's okay 3 00:00:09,170 --> 00:00:11,900 to treat some people way better than average 4 00:00:12,197 --> 00:00:13,711 for things they had nothing to do with, 5 00:00:14,109 --> 00:00:16,021 and other people way worse than average for 6 00:00:16,021 --> 00:00:18,026 things they had nothing to do with and 7 00:00:18,026 --> 00:00:18,526 then 8 00:00:19,060 --> 00:00:21,286 sla on nonsense about this being a just 9 00:00:21,286 --> 00:00:22,240 world afterward. 10 00:00:22,797 --> 00:00:23,774 And what 11 00:00:24,228 --> 00:00:26,375 getting rid of a notion of free will 12 00:00:26,375 --> 00:00:30,124 is about is saying actually, that's stuff you 13 00:00:30,124 --> 00:00:32,610 had no control over. Oh, I had. 14 00:00:33,460 --> 00:00:35,288 Not just an academic point is what you're 15 00:00:35,288 --> 00:00:38,404 saying. To be greatest latest. In in journals, 16 00:00:38,563 --> 00:00:40,097 it has very real consequences. 17 00:00:40,790 --> 00:00:43,097 Have the sciences proven we have no control 18 00:00:43,097 --> 00:00:43,813 over our lives? 19 00:00:44,782 --> 00:00:46,452 Is that even something they could prove? 20 00:00:47,566 --> 00:00:49,100 Today, I'll take up these questions 21 00:00:49,713 --> 00:00:50,213 by 22 00:00:50,588 --> 00:00:52,043 discussing a recent podcast 23 00:00:52,497 --> 00:00:54,366 interview? Of Robert Sep 24 00:00:54,901 --> 00:00:56,813 on neo grass Tyson Star talk. 25 00:00:58,327 --> 00:01:00,022 Sap and neuroscientist neuroscience 26 00:01:00,399 --> 00:01:02,492 is the author of the recent book determined 27 00:01:02,724 --> 00:01:04,396 the science of life without free will. 28 00:01:05,273 --> 00:01:05,773 So 29 00:01:06,308 --> 00:01:07,741 first, what's the issue? 30 00:01:08,856 --> 00:01:11,325 What is it free will versus versus what? 31 00:01:12,295 --> 00:01:14,760 On the 1 hand advocates of free will 32 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:16,112 claim that when we make choices, 33 00:01:16,589 --> 00:01:17,566 it's the choice 34 00:01:17,941 --> 00:01:19,691 that determines what happens next. 35 00:01:20,344 --> 00:01:22,584 It's the choice that determines what actions we 36 00:01:22,584 --> 00:01:25,625 take. Had we chosen differently, a different future 37 00:01:25,625 --> 00:01:26,504 would have occurred. 38 00:01:27,716 --> 00:01:30,972 Ci is an advocate of deter as the 39 00:01:30,972 --> 00:01:34,704 title of his book suggests. And our first 40 00:01:34,704 --> 00:01:34,942 clip, 41 00:01:35,755 --> 00:01:36,655 to discuss 42 00:01:37,034 --> 00:01:39,834 is Tyson and Sap supposed laying out how 43 00:01:39,834 --> 00:01:40,814 they understand 44 00:01:41,594 --> 00:01:45,199 deter in relation to human behavior. Let's let's 45 00:01:45,199 --> 00:01:46,631 take a look at the first clip. If 46 00:01:46,631 --> 00:01:47,131 every 47 00:01:47,665 --> 00:01:49,359 action has a a preceding 48 00:01:49,734 --> 00:01:51,485 action to it. You just take that all 49 00:01:51,485 --> 00:01:52,121 the way back. 50 00:01:52,694 --> 00:01:54,547 So it's no longer in your consciousness. 51 00:01:55,161 --> 00:01:57,868 Right? And then something set those series of 52 00:01:57,868 --> 00:01:58,368 s 53 00:01:58,903 --> 00:02:00,336 trips in sequence, 54 00:02:00,829 --> 00:02:02,421 and then you end up saying something or 55 00:02:02,421 --> 00:02:03,058 doing something. 56 00:02:03,855 --> 00:02:04,355 So 57 00:02:05,129 --> 00:02:06,903 this... So the the physicists 58 00:02:07,438 --> 00:02:08,871 cause and effect argument. 59 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,312 How does what you say dovetail with that 60 00:02:12,391 --> 00:02:14,383 Or or you are you saying something slightly 61 00:02:14,383 --> 00:02:15,419 different philosophically? 62 00:02:16,694 --> 00:02:18,549 Actually, very similar. And 63 00:02:19,577 --> 00:02:19,896 You, 64 00:02:20,533 --> 00:02:23,980 behavioral sciences biology whatever discovered made this major 65 00:02:24,038 --> 00:02:25,175 discovery recently, 66 00:02:25,551 --> 00:02:27,144 by which I mean somewhere in the last 67 00:02:27,144 --> 00:02:27,941 couple of centuries. 68 00:02:28,435 --> 00:02:30,995 Which is something happened because of what came 69 00:02:30,995 --> 00:02:32,754 just before that, and that happened because of 70 00:02:32,754 --> 00:02:34,594 what chase to... And, you know, that whole 71 00:02:34,594 --> 00:02:36,914 deal, I freak out when we've gotten anywhere 72 00:02:36,914 --> 00:02:39,158 near the big bang because I understand 0 73 00:02:39,158 --> 00:02:41,304 about that. But at the very least to... 74 00:02:41,780 --> 00:02:43,767 And how you turn out to evolve into 75 00:02:43,767 --> 00:02:46,284 the sort of species you are. Yeah. And 76 00:02:46,562 --> 00:02:49,021 you look at everything and it had a 77 00:02:49,021 --> 00:02:49,894 deter route. 78 00:02:51,956 --> 00:02:53,725 So this is a this is a great 79 00:02:53,780 --> 00:02:55,781 description of this. Stakes of the debate. So 80 00:02:55,781 --> 00:02:57,872 on the 1 hand, the free will advocate 81 00:02:57,928 --> 00:02:59,836 is saying that we're the authors of our 82 00:02:59,836 --> 00:03:01,904 own futures were the authors of our own, 83 00:03:02,794 --> 00:03:05,745 person and character and choice and decisions. So 84 00:03:05,745 --> 00:03:08,718 po conception here is the 85 00:03:09,095 --> 00:03:11,009 is a is a model of human behavior 86 00:03:11,009 --> 00:03:12,365 as a mechanical system. 87 00:03:12,858 --> 00:03:13,358 Like 88 00:03:13,732 --> 00:03:14,606 gears in a clock, 89 00:03:15,241 --> 00:03:16,854 1 turn of 1 gear 90 00:03:17,387 --> 00:03:19,691 necessarily produces the turn of another gear of 91 00:03:19,691 --> 00:03:20,803 just a certain amount, 92 00:03:21,613 --> 00:03:24,160 given how things are now, there's only 1 93 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,343 possible future for the clock and to supposed 94 00:03:27,343 --> 00:03:28,378 again also, Tyson, 95 00:03:29,253 --> 00:03:31,896 given how things are now, and given your 96 00:03:31,896 --> 00:03:34,627 background in the past, there's only 1 possible 97 00:03:35,163 --> 00:03:36,278 choice you could make. 98 00:03:37,952 --> 00:03:38,452 There 99 00:03:38,842 --> 00:03:40,989 saying we're like clocks in this respect. 100 00:03:42,023 --> 00:03:43,216 But, of course, 101 00:03:44,250 --> 00:03:44,750 clocks 102 00:03:46,079 --> 00:03:47,987 don't think they are are not clocks. 103 00:03:48,639 --> 00:03:50,788 And and the the difference here is that 104 00:03:50,788 --> 00:03:53,733 human beings have a perspective on the causality 105 00:03:53,733 --> 00:03:55,166 of their their behavior. 106 00:03:55,882 --> 00:03:56,041 So... 107 00:03:57,251 --> 00:03:59,003 Those are the kind of 2 sides of 108 00:03:59,003 --> 00:04:01,472 the debate. There's the free will side. There's 109 00:04:01,472 --> 00:04:03,724 the deter or the deter 110 00:04:04,180 --> 00:04:05,237 side. And 111 00:04:05,788 --> 00:04:08,042 they also have a pretty good 112 00:04:09,216 --> 00:04:10,274 understanding of what 113 00:04:10,650 --> 00:04:12,165 the stakes are in the debate in the 114 00:04:12,165 --> 00:04:13,361 sense of what matters. 115 00:04:14,013 --> 00:04:16,800 There's something very wrong in that we run 116 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,188 the world on the notion that it's okay 117 00:04:19,188 --> 00:04:21,816 to treat some people way better than average. 118 00:04:22,309 --> 00:04:23,824 For things they had nothing to do with, 119 00:04:24,223 --> 00:04:26,217 and other people way worse than average for 120 00:04:26,217 --> 00:04:28,131 things they had nothing to do with and 121 00:04:28,131 --> 00:04:28,631 then 122 00:04:29,168 --> 00:04:31,401 sla on nonsense about this being a just 123 00:04:31,401 --> 00:04:32,374 world. Afterward. 124 00:04:32,933 --> 00:04:33,913 And what 125 00:04:34,372 --> 00:04:36,530 getting rid of a notion of free will 126 00:04:36,530 --> 00:04:40,206 is about is saying actually, that stuff you 127 00:04:40,206 --> 00:04:42,719 had no control over Oh, I had 128 00:04:43,098 --> 00:04:45,255 all. Not just an academic point is what 129 00:04:45,255 --> 00:04:48,292 you're saying to be greatest slightest. In in 130 00:04:48,292 --> 00:04:50,231 journals, it has very real consequences. 131 00:04:50,943 --> 00:04:53,490 In our social cultural fabric. 132 00:04:54,127 --> 00:04:56,117 I agree with them in this respect. You 133 00:04:56,117 --> 00:04:58,837 wouldn't blame a rock for rolling downhill. Nor 134 00:04:58,837 --> 00:05:00,585 would you praise it. It's just an inc 135 00:05:00,744 --> 00:05:02,890 The rock has no choice. You wouldn't blame 136 00:05:02,890 --> 00:05:05,354 a clock for ticking or not ticking. I 137 00:05:05,354 --> 00:05:07,443 mean, it's not up to the clock whether 138 00:05:07,674 --> 00:05:10,888 or not that... That happens. And and Sap 139 00:05:10,947 --> 00:05:13,342 is entirely correct If there's no free will, 140 00:05:13,502 --> 00:05:14,002 then 141 00:05:14,540 --> 00:05:16,615 the world is neither just nor unjust. That's 142 00:05:16,615 --> 00:05:17,745 not a... Coherent, 143 00:05:18,301 --> 00:05:21,583 a coherent conception because no 1 should or 144 00:05:21,798 --> 00:05:23,650 shouldn't do anything. They just 145 00:05:24,342 --> 00:05:26,995 of do what they do as a matter 146 00:05:26,995 --> 00:05:27,495 of 147 00:05:28,115 --> 00:05:28,995 of, physics. 148 00:05:30,194 --> 00:05:30,435 Now, 149 00:05:31,394 --> 00:05:33,954 1 of the ways this is sometimes put 150 00:05:33,954 --> 00:05:34,490 is that 151 00:05:34,928 --> 00:05:35,827 the deter 152 00:05:36,684 --> 00:05:38,380 picture of human behavior is 153 00:05:38,838 --> 00:05:39,817 incompatible with 154 00:05:40,274 --> 00:05:40,774 responsibility, 155 00:05:41,152 --> 00:05:41,652 particularly 156 00:05:42,284 --> 00:05:45,644 moral responsibility. You're not responsible that is you 157 00:05:45,644 --> 00:05:48,925 don't get credit for doing something, are our 158 00:05:48,925 --> 00:05:49,745 conception of 159 00:05:50,697 --> 00:05:51,197 responsibility 160 00:05:52,214 --> 00:05:52,714 of 161 00:05:53,172 --> 00:05:54,310 dessert deserving 162 00:05:54,688 --> 00:05:56,306 or not deserving something 163 00:05:56,684 --> 00:05:58,381 is tied up with our 164 00:05:59,174 --> 00:06:01,492 view or a common sense view that, yeah, 165 00:06:01,651 --> 00:06:03,489 they did 1 thing, but they could have 166 00:06:03,489 --> 00:06:04,448 done something else. 167 00:06:05,327 --> 00:06:07,805 He robbed the bank, but he could not 168 00:06:07,805 --> 00:06:08,100 have 169 00:06:08,697 --> 00:06:09,197 he 170 00:06:10,687 --> 00:06:11,165 built 171 00:06:11,563 --> 00:06:14,747 a wonderful startup company. He could have done 172 00:06:14,747 --> 00:06:16,282 something else. He could have 173 00:06:17,152 --> 00:06:18,828 he could've have, you know, been a beg, 174 00:06:18,987 --> 00:06:19,806 he could have 175 00:06:20,184 --> 00:06:21,721 gone to law school whatever. 176 00:06:23,375 --> 00:06:25,225 But if again, if Sup is right if 177 00:06:25,225 --> 00:06:26,900 the deter view is right, 178 00:06:27,937 --> 00:06:29,554 there's no sense in which 179 00:06:29,931 --> 00:06:32,324 anybody could have done anything other than they 180 00:06:32,324 --> 00:06:32,483 did. 181 00:06:34,650 --> 00:06:36,639 They go on, a little bit after the 182 00:06:36,639 --> 00:06:39,447 clip to talk about some social and political 183 00:06:39,743 --> 00:06:40,243 implications 184 00:06:40,858 --> 00:06:41,358 of 185 00:06:42,225 --> 00:06:44,452 of the free well versus deter, 186 00:06:45,168 --> 00:06:47,952 debate. You get some kind of reward or 187 00:06:47,952 --> 00:06:48,452 dessert 188 00:06:49,477 --> 00:06:51,860 because you're responsible for what you've done if 189 00:06:51,860 --> 00:06:53,846 you make more money say, 190 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,728 you've earned it in the sense of 191 00:06:57,038 --> 00:07:00,319 you did something of your own choice that 192 00:07:00,375 --> 00:07:02,283 brought about some desirable effect. 193 00:07:03,475 --> 00:07:05,223 Again, if there's no choice, 194 00:07:06,274 --> 00:07:08,774 highly productive people aren't any different than 195 00:07:09,875 --> 00:07:10,375 than 196 00:07:10,834 --> 00:07:12,694 clocks or then rocks and 197 00:07:14,447 --> 00:07:17,477 poorly productive or unproductive or negatively productive people, 198 00:07:17,876 --> 00:07:20,905 they're not responsible for that either. So what 199 00:07:20,905 --> 00:07:22,522 sense does it make to 200 00:07:22,835 --> 00:07:24,535 dole out rewards when 201 00:07:24,915 --> 00:07:27,555 or penalties when no one's the cause of 202 00:07:27,555 --> 00:07:28,595 anything they do? 203 00:07:29,475 --> 00:07:31,395 How do we decide who's right, 204 00:07:31,967 --> 00:07:33,894 what exactly are we saying is 205 00:07:34,267 --> 00:07:35,560 free or is 206 00:07:36,011 --> 00:07:39,025 determined? Really what we're talking about is this 207 00:07:39,025 --> 00:07:41,987 sort of... Experience or this internal experience of 208 00:07:41,987 --> 00:07:42,785 having chosen. 209 00:07:44,300 --> 00:07:45,917 So we have 2 clips here 210 00:07:47,092 --> 00:07:49,246 splice together to give you a sense of 211 00:07:49,246 --> 00:07:52,399 how Sap supposed thinks about this. He's 212 00:07:53,019 --> 00:07:53,519 he's 213 00:07:53,819 --> 00:07:57,672 thinking about the internal experience of choice, but 214 00:07:57,672 --> 00:07:59,581 he's got a he's got a view of 215 00:07:59,581 --> 00:08:03,161 what exactly this experience is of that, I'm 216 00:08:03,161 --> 00:08:05,706 gonna take issue with. Philosophically, you can say, 217 00:08:06,917 --> 00:08:09,389 what you did was predetermined, but the way 218 00:08:09,389 --> 00:08:10,905 we experience life, 219 00:08:12,580 --> 00:08:14,973 we feel we have free will and isn't 220 00:08:14,973 --> 00:08:15,691 that good enough. 221 00:08:17,771 --> 00:08:20,652 No. And not only isn't good enough scientifically, 222 00:08:21,184 --> 00:08:23,485 it's an awful thing for how life is. 223 00:08:23,739 --> 00:08:25,494 For lots of people to believe in free 224 00:08:25,494 --> 00:08:26,712 will that isn't there 225 00:08:27,408 --> 00:08:27,908 because 226 00:08:28,445 --> 00:08:31,556 you give somebody a sense that they had 227 00:08:31,556 --> 00:08:34,199 control over how things turned out. Okay. So 228 00:08:34,199 --> 00:08:37,000 something like you pick vanilla instead of strawberry 229 00:08:37,134 --> 00:08:37,634 or 230 00:08:38,642 --> 00:08:40,387 what we're caught in there. Is exactly what 231 00:08:40,387 --> 00:08:42,625 you... Like we're alluding to. You sit there, 232 00:08:42,863 --> 00:08:43,816 you make a decision. 233 00:08:44,531 --> 00:08:47,175 You have a moment of intent. You're consciously 234 00:08:47,310 --> 00:08:48,977 aware of the intent. You know what the 235 00:08:48,977 --> 00:08:51,299 outcome likely to be, Most importantly, you know, 236 00:08:51,458 --> 00:08:53,210 you don't have to do this. There's are 237 00:08:53,210 --> 00:08:53,688 alternatives, 238 00:08:54,166 --> 00:08:56,476 and that sure seems like free will, and 239 00:08:56,476 --> 00:08:58,785 that is nothing to do with free will. 240 00:08:59,279 --> 00:09:01,671 Okay. Because the only thing to ask at 241 00:09:01,671 --> 00:09:04,383 that point is, so how do you turn 242 00:09:04,383 --> 00:09:06,537 out to be the sort of person who 243 00:09:06,537 --> 00:09:09,501 would want vanilla strawberry at that I'm gonna 244 00:09:09,501 --> 00:09:11,090 do Robert. Next time I'm in an ice 245 00:09:11,090 --> 00:09:13,474 cream shop. I'm gonna say, let me see. 246 00:09:13,633 --> 00:09:15,857 Do I want Vin no. I want strawberry. 247 00:09:16,255 --> 00:09:18,737 Your name. Dan, no. Right when they're ready 248 00:09:18,737 --> 00:09:20,173 to scoop it, I I walk out so 249 00:09:20,253 --> 00:09:21,370 I don't want any ice cream at all. 250 00:09:21,849 --> 00:09:24,163 You totally un your entire theory. 251 00:09:24,881 --> 00:09:26,966 No. Not at all how do you wind 252 00:09:26,966 --> 00:09:29,509 it being the sort of person saying. Screw 253 00:09:29,509 --> 00:09:31,020 that with trying to say this is how 254 00:09:31,179 --> 00:09:33,245 I dumb. I'm gonna show them or whatever. 255 00:09:33,484 --> 00:09:36,122 I'm gonna. Know you. Oh notice that it's 256 00:09:36,122 --> 00:09:39,064 to them, it's, like, adam choices. You have 257 00:09:39,064 --> 00:09:40,973 a moment of intent Ci supposed says. 258 00:09:41,847 --> 00:09:44,551 You decide between 2 alternatives. 259 00:09:45,363 --> 00:09:47,119 This is a kind of understanding of free 260 00:09:47,119 --> 00:09:49,353 will is, like, the moment of choice is 261 00:09:49,353 --> 00:09:51,907 what's supposed to be free or what feels 262 00:09:51,907 --> 00:09:52,705 like it's free. 263 00:09:53,755 --> 00:09:55,685 So is that the right way 264 00:09:56,378 --> 00:09:59,183 to think about the experience of 265 00:09:59,557 --> 00:10:00,193 of choice? 266 00:10:02,514 --> 00:10:05,384 And I don't think it is. He doesn't 267 00:10:05,384 --> 00:10:06,362 take seriously 268 00:10:07,297 --> 00:10:07,797 the 269 00:10:08,334 --> 00:10:11,379 experience of mental control that we have. I 270 00:10:11,379 --> 00:10:12,679 think you 271 00:10:13,220 --> 00:10:15,540 choices are important to thinking about for... Like, 272 00:10:16,820 --> 00:10:19,630 choices, chocolate or vanilla, that that's not irrelevant, 273 00:10:19,949 --> 00:10:22,283 but what's really central is 274 00:10:22,660 --> 00:10:24,755 the experience or the the 275 00:10:25,291 --> 00:10:27,227 observation of our own power to control 276 00:10:27,618 --> 00:10:29,046 our, our minds. 277 00:10:29,919 --> 00:10:33,116 We exert far more control over than just 278 00:10:33,410 --> 00:10:35,393 the choice, chocolate or vanilla. For example, 279 00:10:36,123 --> 00:10:37,258 we can control 280 00:10:38,189 --> 00:10:39,563 entire chains of deli. 281 00:10:41,129 --> 00:10:42,321 Well, maybe you're choosing... 282 00:10:44,324 --> 00:10:46,097 Sugar free, vanilla versus 283 00:10:46,710 --> 00:10:47,745 sugary chocolate, 284 00:10:48,620 --> 00:10:50,529 but you're choosing that in the con... In 285 00:10:50,529 --> 00:10:52,771 the context of having thought about should I 286 00:10:52,771 --> 00:10:53,644 go on a diet? 287 00:10:55,390 --> 00:10:57,954 That's a whole process of deli liberation. You 288 00:10:58,010 --> 00:10:58,510 weigh 289 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,209 the pros and cons, you 290 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:03,037 consult with maybe a doctor. 291 00:11:03,836 --> 00:11:05,674 You think about what goals you might have 292 00:11:05,674 --> 00:11:07,991 in in in deciding to go on a 293 00:11:07,991 --> 00:11:08,550 on a diet, 294 00:11:09,443 --> 00:11:10,739 we control aspects 295 00:11:11,830 --> 00:11:14,932 of that whole process of declaration, like the 296 00:11:14,932 --> 00:11:16,762 duration I would. We can control what questions 297 00:11:16,762 --> 00:11:17,478 we ask ourselves. 298 00:11:18,769 --> 00:11:20,607 Should I go to the doctor and ask 299 00:11:20,607 --> 00:11:22,125 their opinion or, I thought they I don't 300 00:11:22,125 --> 00:11:23,803 know what they're talking about. Maybe that's how 301 00:11:23,803 --> 00:11:24,363 you think of it. 302 00:11:25,401 --> 00:11:28,604 When, when to stop? Thinking about it. We 303 00:11:28,604 --> 00:11:30,272 have control over that as well. 304 00:11:30,908 --> 00:11:33,053 And when to start thinking about the question, 305 00:11:34,895 --> 00:11:35,871 So in 306 00:11:36,245 --> 00:11:38,413 In iran's theory free will, what we fundamentally 307 00:11:38,628 --> 00:11:42,282 have control over is whether we're engaged in 308 00:11:42,282 --> 00:11:43,791 a process of thought to begin with. 309 00:11:45,398 --> 00:11:47,650 Whether we exert the effort to know reality 310 00:11:47,787 --> 00:11:48,344 or not. 311 00:11:49,379 --> 00:11:52,086 So, of course, chocolate or vanilla type choices, 312 00:11:52,579 --> 00:11:54,971 only occur within a broader context, 313 00:11:55,450 --> 00:11:58,024 and the broadest relevant context is 314 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,092 having made this more fundamental choice of 315 00:12:02,483 --> 00:12:03,222 I'm gonna 316 00:12:03,836 --> 00:12:05,449 engage my mind to 317 00:12:05,904 --> 00:12:07,813 think about what's true and what's good for 318 00:12:07,813 --> 00:12:07,972 me. 319 00:12:09,580 --> 00:12:13,259 When you choose vanilla, maybe it's relevant, 320 00:12:13,580 --> 00:12:15,980 but not a determining factor that your grandmother, 321 00:12:16,059 --> 00:12:18,399 like vanilla ice cream and so choosing 322 00:12:18,872 --> 00:12:20,615 Vanilla brings along with it some pleasant memories 323 00:12:20,615 --> 00:12:22,675 or something, like that's all part of the 324 00:12:22,675 --> 00:12:23,730 context within 325 00:12:24,101 --> 00:12:25,527 which you're choosing, 326 00:12:26,018 --> 00:12:26,256 But, 327 00:12:26,892 --> 00:12:27,392 ultimately, 328 00:12:28,243 --> 00:12:31,262 the most basic choice is just whether or 329 00:12:31,262 --> 00:12:33,487 not to exert the effort to know. 330 00:12:36,841 --> 00:12:37,818 So they 331 00:12:38,987 --> 00:12:41,611 have a limited conception or a limited understanding 332 00:12:41,611 --> 00:12:44,178 of just what is even the... The psychological 333 00:12:44,569 --> 00:12:47,680 phenomenon they're trying to explain away. The second 334 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:50,174 issue that comes up in this clip that 335 00:12:50,313 --> 00:12:53,125 really can you gets gets to the basics 336 00:12:53,125 --> 00:12:56,264 of this. Is just what counts as evidence 337 00:12:56,565 --> 00:12:58,245 for the existence of free will, 338 00:12:58,884 --> 00:13:00,059 1 way or the other 339 00:13:00,498 --> 00:13:02,809 At by now, the onus is on people 340 00:13:02,809 --> 00:13:04,563 saying there's free will, and this is what 341 00:13:04,563 --> 00:13:07,193 would fa diversify all of this, show me 342 00:13:07,193 --> 00:13:07,910 a neuron. 343 00:13:08,643 --> 00:13:10,339 Or a network of neurons 344 00:13:10,876 --> 00:13:14,306 or brain that just did something and show 345 00:13:14,306 --> 00:13:15,604 me that it did that 346 00:13:15,981 --> 00:13:17,496 completely free of its history. 347 00:13:18,469 --> 00:13:19,428 What's wrong with this. 348 00:13:21,266 --> 00:13:23,583 As I said, a moment ago, he thinks 349 00:13:23,583 --> 00:13:24,083 the 350 00:13:24,702 --> 00:13:25,202 intros 351 00:13:25,740 --> 00:13:26,595 awareness of 352 00:13:27,034 --> 00:13:28,093 choice is 353 00:13:28,712 --> 00:13:30,790 very weak evidence. I think it's decisive. 354 00:13:31,829 --> 00:13:34,167 The issue is really what to make of 355 00:13:34,306 --> 00:13:35,425 intros intersect evidence. 356 00:13:36,955 --> 00:13:39,581 And my basic reply is that no fine 357 00:13:39,581 --> 00:13:40,718 scientific finding 358 00:13:41,173 --> 00:13:43,481 can show that we don't have free will. 359 00:13:44,054 --> 00:13:46,372 Because the existence, the reality of free will 360 00:13:46,372 --> 00:13:48,470 is a pre opposition of the sciences. 361 00:13:49,808 --> 00:13:52,205 So I'm saying that in this case, 362 00:13:53,255 --> 00:13:54,231 intros intersection 363 00:13:54,603 --> 00:13:55,103 of 364 00:13:55,475 --> 00:13:57,482 free will sets the context 365 00:13:57,934 --> 00:14:00,392 for our interpretation of sciences findings, 366 00:14:01,203 --> 00:14:03,754 Neuroscience needs to accommodate choice physics needs to 367 00:14:03,754 --> 00:14:04,254 accommodate 368 00:14:04,631 --> 00:14:06,146 non deter causes. 369 00:14:07,102 --> 00:14:07,602 So 370 00:14:08,059 --> 00:14:08,697 how do I... 371 00:14:10,303 --> 00:14:13,480 Defend that view. Well, before I do... So 372 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,409 directly, I wanna take a look at 373 00:14:15,782 --> 00:14:16,282 1 374 00:14:16,735 --> 00:14:18,347 final clip from their podcast, 375 00:14:19,532 --> 00:14:20,828 If I tell you 376 00:14:22,001 --> 00:14:24,471 that I don't agree with you that we 377 00:14:24,471 --> 00:14:25,586 all have free will. 378 00:14:27,272 --> 00:14:27,772 Then 379 00:14:28,703 --> 00:14:30,452 I'm not in control of the fact that 380 00:14:30,532 --> 00:14:32,759 I am telling you we all have free 381 00:14:32,759 --> 00:14:32,997 will. 382 00:14:34,031 --> 00:14:37,148 It's predetermined that I think that everyone who 383 00:14:37,148 --> 00:14:38,739 thinks we have free will that we have 384 00:14:38,739 --> 00:14:40,887 free will. That's predetermined. And nothing we can 385 00:14:40,887 --> 00:14:41,364 do about it. 386 00:14:42,637 --> 00:14:42,876 Yeah. 387 00:14:43,529 --> 00:14:44,428 Until you get 388 00:14:46,005 --> 00:14:46,505 until 389 00:14:46,964 --> 00:14:48,802 something to do can't get out of? 390 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:49,840 Yeah. 391 00:14:50,573 --> 00:14:52,643 Like, somewhere along the way, you figured it 392 00:14:52,643 --> 00:14:54,475 out the kids saying next you having trouble 393 00:14:54,475 --> 00:14:57,045 learning to read. There's this thing called d, 394 00:14:57,740 --> 00:14:58,536 and you changed. 395 00:14:59,268 --> 00:15:01,655 You changed as a result and, like, your 396 00:15:01,655 --> 00:15:04,600 brain changed. When you look at somebody who 397 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,987 has, like, a lot of spelling errors or 398 00:15:06,987 --> 00:15:09,228 whatever in they're writing and like they mentioned 399 00:15:09,228 --> 00:15:10,497 so we're working yeah, I got a learning 400 00:15:10,497 --> 00:15:11,290 difference whatever, 401 00:15:11,765 --> 00:15:13,986 a part of your brain that would have 402 00:15:13,986 --> 00:15:17,651 had some immersive responses. And told another party 403 00:15:17,651 --> 00:15:19,399 your brain that has something to do with 404 00:15:19,399 --> 00:15:19,899 judgment 405 00:15:20,591 --> 00:15:22,839 doesn't activate anymore the social 406 00:15:24,342 --> 00:15:27,126 Okay. And social enlightenment turns out to be 407 00:15:27,126 --> 00:15:27,626 neuro 408 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:29,058 and neuro 409 00:15:29,434 --> 00:15:31,582 turns out to be different social behavior. It's 410 00:15:31,582 --> 00:15:32,616 completely intertwined. 411 00:15:33,269 --> 00:15:36,389 Like, thank God. So can cure people who 412 00:15:36,389 --> 00:15:38,709 think there's... There is free will. There's... 413 00:15:40,323 --> 00:15:42,076 Yes. It's not their fault. We... 414 00:15:43,271 --> 00:15:46,378 Exactly. We pray for their souls, but still. 415 00:15:51,733 --> 00:15:56,279 So Tyson raising a really great objection. Unfortunately, 416 00:15:56,438 --> 00:15:59,411 he doesn't really see how to press it 417 00:15:59,803 --> 00:16:02,936 and Sap supposedly doesn't appreciate how deep 418 00:16:03,472 --> 00:16:07,322 how deep the objection cuts. So the entire 419 00:16:07,381 --> 00:16:09,157 interview, the entire conversation 420 00:16:09,946 --> 00:16:13,678 around deter that they're having suffers from a 421 00:16:13,678 --> 00:16:14,178 basic 422 00:16:14,710 --> 00:16:15,210 inc. 423 00:16:16,219 --> 00:16:18,522 He's telling us, suppose he's telling us, 424 00:16:19,494 --> 00:16:22,291 what we should do given that there's no 425 00:16:22,291 --> 00:16:22,850 free will? 426 00:16:23,889 --> 00:16:26,206 They're asking glenn, how should society change? How 427 00:16:26,206 --> 00:16:27,245 should we judge each other? 428 00:16:28,135 --> 00:16:31,254 When should we assign praise or blame. Those 429 00:16:31,548 --> 00:16:32,524 kind of questions 430 00:16:33,215 --> 00:16:36,231 don't make any sense on deter premises. 431 00:16:36,882 --> 00:16:39,611 No 1 can do anything about it 432 00:16:40,225 --> 00:16:42,374 because no one's really in control of themselves. 433 00:16:43,170 --> 00:16:46,138 So this contradiction arises whenever determine 434 00:16:46,927 --> 00:16:49,080 say anything about what we should do. 435 00:16:50,275 --> 00:16:52,667 A rock neither should nor shouldn't roll down 436 00:16:52,667 --> 00:16:54,682 a hill, o'clock me neither should or shouldn't 437 00:16:54,993 --> 00:16:55,812 tick the 438 00:16:56,823 --> 00:16:59,471 idea of should is tied up with our 439 00:16:59,607 --> 00:17:02,789 concept of could have done otherwise. You had 440 00:17:02,789 --> 00:17:03,346 a choice, 441 00:17:03,839 --> 00:17:05,832 you had power over your actions. 442 00:17:07,347 --> 00:17:09,420 Supposedly he gets this when he's talking about 443 00:17:09,420 --> 00:17:10,718 other people's responsibility, 444 00:17:11,254 --> 00:17:14,079 or judging other people. They don't have responsibility, 445 00:17:14,613 --> 00:17:17,318 but what should you believe with respect to 446 00:17:17,318 --> 00:17:17,795 free will? 447 00:17:20,914 --> 00:17:21,813 A deter 448 00:17:22,428 --> 00:17:25,296 can't really say. He's not in a position 449 00:17:25,296 --> 00:17:27,549 to know whether his theory corresponds 450 00:17:27,925 --> 00:17:28,642 reality or not. 451 00:17:29,772 --> 00:17:31,522 Because on his own theory, 452 00:17:32,238 --> 00:17:34,466 he believe it regardless of whether or not 453 00:17:34,466 --> 00:17:34,943 it's true. 454 00:17:37,428 --> 00:17:38,307 Knowledge talk, 455 00:17:38,866 --> 00:17:41,263 terms like true and false, snow, 456 00:17:41,662 --> 00:17:42,301 don't know, 457 00:17:43,991 --> 00:17:47,265 the... That is also a kind of responsibility. 458 00:17:47,795 --> 00:17:50,252 It's a responsibility with how we think about 459 00:17:50,252 --> 00:17:50,648 things. 460 00:17:51,700 --> 00:17:52,339 How we 461 00:17:53,140 --> 00:17:53,859 assess evidence, 462 00:17:54,339 --> 00:17:55,240 how we reach 463 00:17:55,619 --> 00:17:57,539 judgments of of the truth, 464 00:18:00,353 --> 00:18:02,129 When he says a certain 465 00:18:02,506 --> 00:18:05,138 observation will confirm or confirm his theory, 466 00:18:06,972 --> 00:18:08,886 Why adopt that as a rule? Why care 467 00:18:08,886 --> 00:18:09,365 about tests? 468 00:18:10,175 --> 00:18:12,720 Why think a test would or wouldn't prove 469 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:13,118 anything? 470 00:18:14,152 --> 00:18:14,470 Well, 471 00:18:15,186 --> 00:18:17,811 because our minds aren't automatically connected to reality, 472 00:18:18,144 --> 00:18:19,684 We have to do certain things 473 00:18:20,065 --> 00:18:22,144 to get them in contact with reality, 474 00:18:22,865 --> 00:18:25,664 and we could do other things that don't 475 00:18:25,664 --> 00:18:27,105 get us in contact with reality. 476 00:18:27,676 --> 00:18:30,371 Instead of looking for evidence, we could con 477 00:18:30,371 --> 00:18:31,188 con fantasies. 478 00:18:32,669 --> 00:18:34,175 How do you know your theory is true? 479 00:18:35,144 --> 00:18:37,781 While on a deter view like Sep, he 480 00:18:37,781 --> 00:18:38,341 can't say. 481 00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:41,857 Because again, according to his own theory, he'd 482 00:18:41,857 --> 00:18:43,456 believe it even if it were even if 483 00:18:43,456 --> 00:18:44,095 it were false. 484 00:18:45,624 --> 00:18:47,158 Now, if you 485 00:18:47,533 --> 00:18:49,441 adopt a theory of free will like I'm 486 00:18:49,441 --> 00:18:49,759 rand, 487 00:18:50,952 --> 00:18:52,702 the answer to that question is, 488 00:18:53,672 --> 00:18:56,301 Well, I've chosen to take the actions necessary 489 00:18:56,301 --> 00:18:58,395 to keep my mind in contact with reality 490 00:18:58,532 --> 00:18:59,909 that I've chosen to 491 00:19:00,365 --> 00:19:02,198 accept the results of those actions. That's how 492 00:19:02,277 --> 00:19:02,596 I know. 493 00:19:04,361 --> 00:19:05,633 My my view is true. 494 00:19:06,825 --> 00:19:09,312 If I took those actions and 495 00:19:10,164 --> 00:19:10,482 they, 496 00:19:11,053 --> 00:19:12,560 told me my view was false. I would 497 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,860 have accepted that it's false. If I didn't 498 00:19:14,860 --> 00:19:16,288 perform those actions, I would have, 499 00:19:16,843 --> 00:19:18,454 accepted some other option 500 00:19:20,433 --> 00:19:22,662 my mind is in contact with reality because 501 00:19:22,822 --> 00:19:24,892 I chose to keep it that way. 502 00:19:26,882 --> 00:19:27,382 So 503 00:19:28,094 --> 00:19:30,092 If that's right, free will is a fact 504 00:19:30,092 --> 00:19:32,909 at the foundation of all knowledge, including scientific 505 00:19:33,048 --> 00:19:33,368 knowledge, 506 00:19:34,247 --> 00:19:36,485 a real scientific approach to free will, 507 00:19:37,139 --> 00:19:40,259 would start from that fact that is start 508 00:19:40,259 --> 00:19:41,619 from the fact of free will. 509 00:19:42,419 --> 00:19:44,179 It wouldn't treat it as a hypothesis in 510 00:19:44,179 --> 00:19:44,980 need of testing. 511 00:19:46,030 --> 00:19:47,722 And it would recognize that 512 00:19:48,097 --> 00:19:49,313 any scientific 513 00:19:49,687 --> 00:19:51,277 theory which called into question, 514 00:19:52,152 --> 00:19:54,640 1 of the very foundations of science 515 00:19:55,507 --> 00:19:57,893 would result in a in a contradiction. 516 00:20:00,757 --> 00:20:01,257 So 517 00:20:01,632 --> 00:20:04,125 that's what I wanted to say in response 518 00:20:04,125 --> 00:20:04,625 to 519 00:20:05,325 --> 00:20:05,644 Tyson and 520 00:20:06,845 --> 00:20:07,005 Conversation. 521 00:20:08,045 --> 00:20:09,724 Of course, there's a lot more to say 522 00:20:09,724 --> 00:20:10,845 on the topic of free will, 523 00:20:11,659 --> 00:20:12,719 if you're interested 524 00:20:13,097 --> 00:20:15,495 in hearing more about object view of free 525 00:20:15,495 --> 00:20:15,734 will, 526 00:20:16,374 --> 00:20:19,330 the Ina rand Institute has many essays, 527 00:20:19,984 --> 00:20:20,305 and, 528 00:20:21,025 --> 00:20:22,865 podcast podcasts and lecture is on the topic. 529 00:20:23,505 --> 00:20:25,345 If you go to new ideal dot rand 530 00:20:25,345 --> 00:20:27,265 dot org search for free will, you'll find, 531 00:20:28,065 --> 00:20:28,785 find many of them, 532 00:20:30,237 --> 00:20:31,056 If you 533 00:20:31,753 --> 00:20:32,471 enjoyed this video, 534 00:20:33,110 --> 00:20:34,866 please subscribe to our channel on Youtube and 535 00:20:34,866 --> 00:20:36,702 click the bell to get notifications from when 536 00:20:36,702 --> 00:20:37,340 we go live. 537 00:20:37,913 --> 00:20:39,101 Or post new recordings. 538 00:20:39,735 --> 00:20:40,948 Please like, comment 539 00:20:41,399 --> 00:20:43,696 and share this episode to help us attract 540 00:20:43,696 --> 00:20:44,434 new viewers 541 00:20:45,220 --> 00:20:46,119 if you have 542 00:20:46,579 --> 00:20:48,019 any questions on, 543 00:20:48,659 --> 00:20:51,159 free will or on any more broadly 544 00:20:51,539 --> 00:20:52,339 philosophical topic, 545 00:20:53,392 --> 00:20:55,786 please send them to experts at rand dot 546 00:20:55,786 --> 00:20:55,945 org. 547 00:20:56,903 --> 00:20:59,078 If you want to make a suggestion about 548 00:20:59,296 --> 00:21:01,616 future topics, for an episode like this or 549 00:21:01,616 --> 00:21:04,551 for our regular weekly podcast, you can send 550 00:21:04,551 --> 00:21:07,903 the suggestions to new ideal at ina ren 551 00:21:07,903 --> 00:21:09,819 dot org. 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