1 00:00:03,439 --> 00:00:05,919 Welcome to episode 399 2 00:00:05,919 --> 00:00:09,039 of the Microsoft Cloud IT Pro podcast recorded 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,900 live from the MVP Summit on 03/28/2025. 4 00:00:13,199 --> 00:00:15,554 This is a show about Microsoft three sixty 5 00:00:15,554 --> 00:00:17,635 five and Azure from the perspective of IT 6 00:00:17,635 --> 00:00:19,875 pros and end users, where we discuss a 7 00:00:19,875 --> 00:00:21,875 topic or recent news and how it relates 8 00:00:21,875 --> 00:00:24,275 to you. This week, Ben and Scott get 9 00:00:24,275 --> 00:00:25,954 a chance to catch up with Greg Sutti 10 00:00:25,954 --> 00:00:27,175 at the MVP Summit. 11 00:00:27,554 --> 00:00:29,550 While there, Scott and Greg have a chance 12 00:00:29,550 --> 00:00:31,949 to sit down and discuss infrastructure as code 13 00:00:31,949 --> 00:00:34,350 in Azure. They discuss what Greg has been 14 00:00:34,350 --> 00:00:36,590 working on when it comes to Bicep, Azure 15 00:00:36,590 --> 00:00:40,530 verified modules, Bicep configuration files, and more. 16 00:00:42,829 --> 00:00:44,530 I'm here at MVP Summit 17 00:00:45,364 --> 00:00:47,364 with Gregor, who decided to sit down and 18 00:00:47,364 --> 00:00:48,824 was gracious enough to 19 00:00:49,284 --> 00:00:50,424 join us today. 20 00:00:50,964 --> 00:00:53,225 Gregor is an MVP 21 00:00:53,684 --> 00:00:54,664 in Microsoft 22 00:00:55,045 --> 00:00:55,545 Azure 23 00:00:56,085 --> 00:00:57,625 infrastructure and code, 24 00:00:58,140 --> 00:01:00,620 cost resource and configuration management, and probably a 25 00:01:00,620 --> 00:01:02,219 bunch of other things where it has a 26 00:01:02,219 --> 00:01:04,219 bunch of other skills. So, Gregor, why don't 27 00:01:04,219 --> 00:01:05,980 you take a couple minutes, go ahead, introduce 28 00:01:05,980 --> 00:01:07,900 yourself, and then we'll get into things. Thank 29 00:01:07,900 --> 00:01:09,740 you, Scott. Yeah. My name is Gregor Sutti. 30 00:01:09,740 --> 00:01:11,980 I'm an Azure architect for a company in 31 00:01:11,980 --> 00:01:12,560 The Netherlands. 32 00:01:13,064 --> 00:01:14,984 I am from Scotland, so I will try 33 00:01:14,984 --> 00:01:16,905 and speak slowly so that everyone can understand 34 00:01:16,905 --> 00:01:17,405 me. 35 00:01:18,024 --> 00:01:20,504 My background, I was a developer from from 36 00:01:20,504 --> 00:01:21,325 v b sixties, 37 00:01:21,704 --> 00:01:24,024 then I moved over to .net, and then 38 00:01:24,024 --> 00:01:25,465 I was doing SQL. So I've got a 39 00:01:25,465 --> 00:01:26,825 bit of a data background, but I have 40 00:01:26,825 --> 00:01:28,799 a development background, and then I moved to 41 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,359 become an Azure architect for Intercept in The 42 00:01:31,359 --> 00:01:31,859 Netherlands. 43 00:01:32,159 --> 00:01:33,760 I have been doing that for five years 44 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,180 now. Yeah. And I'm Azure MVP. I'm also 45 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:38,480 an MCT, so I do a lot of 46 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,635 Azure fundamentals training, Azure AI training. And, yeah, 47 00:01:41,635 --> 00:01:43,954 that's basically my background. Training near and dear 48 00:01:43,954 --> 00:01:46,355 to my heart. Mhmm. Love training. Love training. 49 00:01:46,355 --> 00:01:48,115 I probably annoyed a bunch of people. I 50 00:01:48,115 --> 00:01:49,475 I I was one of the writers for 51 00:01:49,475 --> 00:01:51,395 the AZ 100 before I became the one 52 00:01:51,395 --> 00:01:52,375 zero four. So 53 00:01:52,674 --> 00:01:53,715 you you get a lot of stuff in 54 00:01:53,715 --> 00:01:55,590 there to blame me for. Nice to know. 55 00:01:55,590 --> 00:01:56,950 So tell me a little bit about your 56 00:01:56,950 --> 00:01:59,189 experience as an MVP. I think folks always 57 00:01:59,189 --> 00:02:00,170 ask that question. 58 00:02:00,709 --> 00:02:02,650 Yeah. How do you come become an MVP? 59 00:02:02,950 --> 00:02:04,950 What goes into it? Like, what's your Lyft 60 00:02:04,950 --> 00:02:07,769 experience there? Good question. So, yeah, my background, 61 00:02:07,984 --> 00:02:09,905 I always wanted to be an MVP. I 62 00:02:09,905 --> 00:02:11,824 wasn't really sure what it was to begin 63 00:02:11,824 --> 00:02:13,504 with, so I reached out to one of 64 00:02:13,664 --> 00:02:16,064 another fellow Scottish person called Kenny Lowe, and 65 00:02:16,064 --> 00:02:17,584 I asked him and he told me quite 66 00:02:17,584 --> 00:02:19,584 a lot about the program. Really interested in 67 00:02:19,584 --> 00:02:20,944 it. I had to say to myself, I 68 00:02:20,944 --> 00:02:22,860 would love to become an MVP. So my 69 00:02:22,860 --> 00:02:24,700 first step was I wrote the letters MVP 70 00:02:24,700 --> 00:02:26,379 above my monitor at home, and I thought 71 00:02:26,379 --> 00:02:27,819 that is my goal. I want to become 72 00:02:27,819 --> 00:02:29,740 an MVP. You you put together a vision 73 00:02:29,740 --> 00:02:31,020 board. No. I just put I just put 74 00:02:31,020 --> 00:02:32,620 the letters MVP right above it. I thought 75 00:02:32,620 --> 00:02:34,060 I'm gonna go for this. This is my 76 00:02:34,060 --> 00:02:36,115 goal. I started off I don't have any 77 00:02:36,115 --> 00:02:37,715 Azure experience, so I was working as a 78 00:02:37,715 --> 00:02:38,534 dot net developer. 79 00:02:38,835 --> 00:02:40,675 The cloud is obviously a big thing five, 80 00:02:40,675 --> 00:02:42,514 six years ago. I wanted to learn Azure, 81 00:02:42,514 --> 00:02:44,514 so I started off with just learning the 82 00:02:44,514 --> 00:02:46,594 exams. So I started off with the development 83 00:02:46,594 --> 00:02:49,400 exams, and I started off blogging about my 84 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,239 experience of learning, like, the developer exams. Like, 85 00:02:53,239 --> 00:02:54,840 how am I what study material am I 86 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:56,360 gonna do? How am I gonna go about 87 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,840 learning this? I'm a hands on learner, so 88 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:00,680 the way I learn is by I don't 89 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,004 read much. Basically, I read the docs and 90 00:03:03,004 --> 00:03:05,245 then hands on learning. So open up the 91 00:03:05,245 --> 00:03:07,805 Azure portal, deploy the resources, and learn from 92 00:03:07,805 --> 00:03:10,044 that. Then I did some practice tests, took 93 00:03:10,044 --> 00:03:11,485 the exam and failed it the first time 94 00:03:11,485 --> 00:03:14,125 around because I didn't have enough hands on 95 00:03:14,125 --> 00:03:16,044 experience. I thought I knew enough to pass 96 00:03:16,044 --> 00:03:17,490 the exam, but it turned out I didn't. 97 00:03:17,490 --> 00:03:18,770 So I took a lot of learnings from 98 00:03:18,770 --> 00:03:20,610 that, but I needed to spend more time 99 00:03:20,610 --> 00:03:22,530 hands on. Took the exam again and passed 100 00:03:22,530 --> 00:03:25,169 it, and today, as of now, I've done 101 00:03:25,169 --> 00:03:27,969 13 exams. So I am quite exam heavy. 102 00:03:27,969 --> 00:03:30,450 Kind of got a routine of studying hands 103 00:03:30,450 --> 00:03:33,125 on, looking at the docs, blogging about my 104 00:03:33,125 --> 00:03:35,145 experiences of what I've learned, what you need 105 00:03:35,205 --> 00:03:37,685 to focus on for the exams. And, yeah, 106 00:03:37,685 --> 00:03:40,085 from that, I then started attending the Glasgow 107 00:03:40,085 --> 00:03:42,645 Azure user group where Sarah Lynn runs that. 108 00:03:42,645 --> 00:03:44,724 She approached me because I was going quite 109 00:03:44,724 --> 00:03:45,224 regular, 110 00:03:45,770 --> 00:03:46,969 and she said, would you like to help? 111 00:03:46,969 --> 00:03:49,050 So I'm kinda helping her with that. That 112 00:03:49,129 --> 00:03:51,849 that's been very helpful for MVP. So I've 113 00:03:51,849 --> 00:03:52,590 been blogging. 114 00:03:52,889 --> 00:03:54,030 I would do some talks 115 00:03:54,330 --> 00:03:56,169 and helping out the Azure user group. So 116 00:03:56,169 --> 00:03:57,930 that's kinda how I got started in becoming 117 00:03:57,930 --> 00:03:59,865 an MVP. And a lot of people reach 118 00:03:59,865 --> 00:04:01,705 out to me on LinkedIn and say, how 119 00:04:01,705 --> 00:04:03,705 do I become an MVP? So I always 120 00:04:03,705 --> 00:04:05,625 say it's all about the community. It's all 121 00:04:05,625 --> 00:04:09,064 about giving back. So whatever you learn, blog 122 00:04:09,064 --> 00:04:11,625 it, write about it, share your knowledge, share 123 00:04:11,625 --> 00:04:13,625 your things you've run into. Lots of times 124 00:04:13,625 --> 00:04:16,069 I Google for for an issue and I 125 00:04:16,069 --> 00:04:17,269 end up look at ended up on my 126 00:04:17,269 --> 00:04:17,930 own blog. 127 00:04:18,310 --> 00:04:20,310 So I started blogging because I've got terrible 128 00:04:20,310 --> 00:04:22,889 memory. Oh, yeah. And sometimes I still still 129 00:04:22,949 --> 00:04:25,290 end up on my own blog. So, yeah, 130 00:04:25,509 --> 00:04:28,310 blogging, giving back to the community, user groups 131 00:04:28,310 --> 00:04:30,149 are always helpful. But I would say you 132 00:04:30,149 --> 00:04:31,645 don't have to a lot of people say 133 00:04:31,645 --> 00:04:33,165 that you'd have to do public speaking. I 134 00:04:33,165 --> 00:04:34,685 don't think you do. There's one of my 135 00:04:34,685 --> 00:04:37,084 friends, Thomas Thornton, he's got an amazing blog 136 00:04:37,084 --> 00:04:38,365 and that's all he does, and he's become 137 00:04:38,365 --> 00:04:41,084 an MVP from from blogging. He's not into 138 00:04:41,084 --> 00:04:43,564 public speaking. So just giving back to the 139 00:04:43,564 --> 00:04:45,699 community as much as possible is is kinda 140 00:04:45,699 --> 00:04:47,860 how you go about becoming an MVP. Gotcha. 141 00:04:47,860 --> 00:04:49,939 Yeah. One of the other things, or at 142 00:04:49,939 --> 00:04:51,939 least my experience there is I I I 143 00:04:51,939 --> 00:04:53,300 did a similar thing. I wanted to be 144 00:04:53,300 --> 00:04:55,219 an MVP. I never became an MVP, but 145 00:04:55,219 --> 00:04:57,459 that was okay because the things that I 146 00:04:57,459 --> 00:04:59,300 were doing, I still got to go out 147 00:04:59,300 --> 00:05:01,605 and meet people and interact with user groups. 148 00:05:01,605 --> 00:05:04,485 And that experience of like, yeah, oh, I 149 00:05:04,485 --> 00:05:06,324 just landed from Google on my own blog. 150 00:05:06,324 --> 00:05:08,404 Yep. It's definitely a thing that happens. So 151 00:05:08,404 --> 00:05:11,285 I I often tell folks don't do it 152 00:05:11,285 --> 00:05:12,725 with the expectation that you want to be 153 00:05:12,725 --> 00:05:13,925 in a VP. Absolutely. Do it with the 154 00:05:13,925 --> 00:05:15,625 expectation that you want to 155 00:05:15,980 --> 00:05:17,740 participate in a community. You want to become 156 00:05:17,740 --> 00:05:19,580 a better technical writer. You want to become 157 00:05:19,580 --> 00:05:22,620 a better presenter. Whatever dimension or or mix 158 00:05:22,620 --> 00:05:24,779 or match of those things are so that 159 00:05:24,779 --> 00:05:26,779 you're getting something out of it. Yeah. And 160 00:05:26,779 --> 00:05:29,339 and and that's really kind of the the 161 00:05:29,339 --> 00:05:30,764 goal and where you want to land. So 162 00:05:30,925 --> 00:05:33,025 I I I have to inquire. So your 163 00:05:33,245 --> 00:05:35,645 Azure infrastructure as code is one of your 164 00:05:35,645 --> 00:05:39,004 categories. Yep. Dot net developer. Yep. Have have 165 00:05:39,004 --> 00:05:40,285 you crossed to the dark side? Do you 166 00:05:40,285 --> 00:05:42,925 consider yourself an IT pro these days? No. 167 00:05:42,925 --> 00:05:44,925 I'm not an IT pro. Generalist. Yeah. I'm 168 00:05:44,925 --> 00:05:47,720 more so when I worked for JP Morgan, 169 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,079 they came up with this term t shaped 170 00:05:49,079 --> 00:05:51,399 developer. So the idea is you are kind 171 00:05:51,399 --> 00:05:53,000 of broad, but you go deep in one 172 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,360 area. So I thought that was quite good. 173 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,680 So my not my problem, but my background 174 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,199 is I am a bit of a master 175 00:05:58,199 --> 00:05:59,955 of a jack of all trades, master of 176 00:05:59,955 --> 00:06:01,555 none, and I decided I would try and 177 00:06:01,555 --> 00:06:03,634 do infrastructure as code as kinda my deep 178 00:06:03,634 --> 00:06:06,615 thing. So, yeah, I do data. I do 179 00:06:06,675 --> 00:06:09,895 AI. I do infrastructure as code, cost management. 180 00:06:09,955 --> 00:06:12,300 I do most of Azure. Probably the only 181 00:06:12,300 --> 00:06:14,220 thing I don't really do is EKS, and 182 00:06:14,220 --> 00:06:15,740 that's the one thing I've kinda because people 183 00:06:15,740 --> 00:06:17,180 at my work to do all that. And 184 00:06:17,180 --> 00:06:18,860 I'm like, you can you can stick with 185 00:06:18,860 --> 00:06:20,300 that and I'll do the rest. So, yeah, 186 00:06:20,300 --> 00:06:21,979 I get asked lots of questions about lots 187 00:06:21,979 --> 00:06:22,879 of different things. 188 00:06:23,180 --> 00:06:26,145 Infrastructure as code, and I have a very 189 00:06:26,145 --> 00:06:27,824 lucky background. I work for a lot of 190 00:06:27,824 --> 00:06:29,504 people, a lot of managers who taught me 191 00:06:29,504 --> 00:06:32,545 how to do things properly, document things, do 192 00:06:32,545 --> 00:06:34,625 pull requests with good comments, and and I 193 00:06:34,625 --> 00:06:36,064 was just I've just got a really good 194 00:06:36,064 --> 00:06:38,145 background for working for good people who showed 195 00:06:38,145 --> 00:06:39,504 me how to do it the right way. 196 00:06:39,504 --> 00:06:42,970 So infrastructure as code, build pipelines, doing everything 197 00:06:43,189 --> 00:06:45,189 professionally. So that's why I got into Bicep. 198 00:06:45,189 --> 00:06:46,949 I wanted to learn how to deploy resources 199 00:06:46,949 --> 00:06:47,610 for customers 200 00:06:48,069 --> 00:06:50,629 across different environments and do it properly. So, 201 00:06:50,629 --> 00:06:52,629 yeah, I'm a big Bicep fan. That that 202 00:06:52,629 --> 00:06:54,569 was gonna be my next question. Mhmm. So 203 00:06:55,264 --> 00:06:57,664 Azure Resource Manager arm has changed a bunch 204 00:06:57,664 --> 00:06:58,964 over the years Yep. From 205 00:06:59,425 --> 00:07:01,044 declarative templates to 206 00:07:01,824 --> 00:07:02,884 Bicep and 207 00:07:03,264 --> 00:07:05,904 and having a domain specific language and and 208 00:07:05,904 --> 00:07:06,564 a DSL. 209 00:07:07,370 --> 00:07:09,209 And there there are certainly folks out there, 210 00:07:09,209 --> 00:07:11,529 I think, that have done infrastructure as code 211 00:07:11,529 --> 00:07:13,789 either on the arm side. They've done maybe 212 00:07:13,849 --> 00:07:14,349 Terraform, 213 00:07:14,889 --> 00:07:16,649 tends to be like my canonical one that 214 00:07:16,649 --> 00:07:18,409 I go back to and and near and 215 00:07:18,409 --> 00:07:20,409 dear to my heart. How how how are 216 00:07:20,409 --> 00:07:20,909 you 217 00:07:21,404 --> 00:07:23,904 finding Bicep, like, the transition from 218 00:07:24,205 --> 00:07:27,264 traditional resource manager templates and and kinda 219 00:07:27,645 --> 00:07:29,904 coming over that? And then are you 220 00:07:30,605 --> 00:07:32,764 is are you just a a Bicep fan? 221 00:07:32,764 --> 00:07:34,764 Are you using it with customers? Like, how 222 00:07:34,764 --> 00:07:36,990 is how is kind of the getting past 223 00:07:36,990 --> 00:07:39,790 the documentation and the POCs to, hey, here's 224 00:07:39,790 --> 00:07:41,949 how this goes in the world for you? 225 00:07:41,949 --> 00:07:44,350 Great question. I did luckily, I didn't spend 226 00:07:44,350 --> 00:07:45,790 too much time in my career doing ARM 227 00:07:45,790 --> 00:07:47,710 templates because ARM templates are a little bit 228 00:07:47,710 --> 00:07:49,790 tricky to kinda understand. When you look at 229 00:07:49,790 --> 00:07:51,845 them, you're like, what is the dependency chain? 230 00:07:51,845 --> 00:07:53,925 How are things working? So I kind of 231 00:07:53,925 --> 00:07:55,605 got on board with Bicep from the very 232 00:07:55,605 --> 00:07:58,324 start. I open up Versus Code. I just 233 00:07:58,324 --> 00:08:00,725 write Bicep. I basically just learned it by, 234 00:08:00,725 --> 00:08:02,725 again, hands on. How do I deploy a 235 00:08:02,725 --> 00:08:05,125 storage account? Let's start with some simple deploy 236 00:08:05,125 --> 00:08:07,930 it like that. How do I parameterize it? 237 00:08:07,930 --> 00:08:09,769 How do I deploy it? Do I deploy 238 00:08:09,769 --> 00:08:11,129 it from my machine? Do I deploy it 239 00:08:11,129 --> 00:08:14,829 from Azure DevOps or GitHub workflows? Runners. Sorry. 240 00:08:14,889 --> 00:08:17,370 So, yeah, just learning it by hands on 241 00:08:17,370 --> 00:08:18,889 and doing it, and I've been doing it 242 00:08:18,889 --> 00:08:21,464 for five years now. Probably, I feel good 243 00:08:21,464 --> 00:08:22,584 at it now, I would suggest. I've got 244 00:08:22,584 --> 00:08:24,904 lots of experience. So when I'm at work, 245 00:08:24,904 --> 00:08:27,544 I always do infrastructure as code using Bicep. 246 00:08:27,544 --> 00:08:29,464 Everyone kinda asks me how to do things 247 00:08:29,464 --> 00:08:31,324 because I I spend probably 248 00:08:31,625 --> 00:08:32,504 70% 249 00:08:32,504 --> 00:08:34,605 of the week doing Bicep for different customers. 250 00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:36,279 Absolutely. I love it. I love the idea 251 00:08:36,279 --> 00:08:38,460 that I can show customers how to deploy 252 00:08:38,759 --> 00:08:41,419 their environment to dev and test in production 253 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,279 using the same templates. So all of the 254 00:08:44,279 --> 00:08:47,000 same standards. The only difference is the config 255 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,754 for the actual deployment resources. So dev might 256 00:08:49,754 --> 00:08:51,834 be a a cheap VM, and acceptance of 257 00:08:51,834 --> 00:08:53,754 prod might be a more expensive VM. So, 258 00:08:53,754 --> 00:08:55,914 yeah, I'm using Bicep a lot, and I 259 00:08:55,914 --> 00:08:57,834 absolutely love it. Even today, we're talking to 260 00:08:57,834 --> 00:08:59,914 the Bicep team, and I think that stuff's 261 00:08:59,914 --> 00:09:02,420 great. Gotcha. And and before we started recording, 262 00:09:02,420 --> 00:09:04,740 you had mentioned that some of the projects 263 00:09:04,740 --> 00:09:06,740 you work on with customers might be around 264 00:09:06,740 --> 00:09:08,519 migrations, things like that. 265 00:09:09,139 --> 00:09:11,399 How do you see your customers 266 00:09:12,019 --> 00:09:15,514 kinda going through those motions? And maybe if 267 00:09:15,514 --> 00:09:17,134 I'm migrating to Azure, 268 00:09:17,434 --> 00:09:19,194 I I I don't know your experience with 269 00:09:19,194 --> 00:09:21,115 it. I'd be curious to understand. I I 270 00:09:21,115 --> 00:09:22,714 see a lot of customers that kinda start 271 00:09:22,714 --> 00:09:24,235 in the portal, and they just go next, 272 00:09:24,235 --> 00:09:26,475 next, next. And I've I've got my virtual 273 00:09:26,475 --> 00:09:28,654 machine, and I've got my VNet. And 274 00:09:29,070 --> 00:09:30,750 oh oh, I I need a database. I 275 00:09:30,750 --> 00:09:32,929 might stand up like a PaaS instance, like 276 00:09:32,990 --> 00:09:35,070 manage instance, something like that. And then they 277 00:09:35,070 --> 00:09:36,670 do it once and they go, how do 278 00:09:36,670 --> 00:09:38,350 I do it again? Correct. And and and 279 00:09:38,350 --> 00:09:39,870 what does that look like? So I'm curious 280 00:09:39,870 --> 00:09:41,090 like, do your customers 281 00:09:41,965 --> 00:09:42,465 move 282 00:09:42,845 --> 00:09:44,764 kind of more traditionally? They come up, they 283 00:09:44,764 --> 00:09:46,125 go through that same kind of motion, and 284 00:09:46,125 --> 00:09:48,524 then you step in and help them take 285 00:09:48,524 --> 00:09:51,504 those environments to a more repeatable 286 00:09:51,884 --> 00:09:54,284 stamped out model? Yep. So it depends on 287 00:09:54,284 --> 00:09:57,120 the customer, obviously. Some customers are already using 288 00:09:57,279 --> 00:10:00,100 doing ClickOps and they're already in Azure. ClickOps? 289 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:01,759 Yeah. We call it ClickOps. Yeah. Yeah. And 290 00:10:01,759 --> 00:10:03,840 the port then the portal just and then 291 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:05,440 you show them the value of Bicep and 292 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:06,799 you show them how you can repeat the 293 00:10:06,799 --> 00:10:07,299 environment. 294 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,115 Because I always I always worry that potentially 295 00:10:10,254 --> 00:10:12,095 a region may go down. You never know. 296 00:10:12,095 --> 00:10:13,774 And they're in West Europe and they might 297 00:10:13,774 --> 00:10:15,455 need to move to North Europe. And if 298 00:10:15,455 --> 00:10:17,534 you've deployed that by hand using ClickOps, how 299 00:10:17,534 --> 00:10:18,914 do you remember all the settings? 300 00:10:19,294 --> 00:10:21,054 The person who's deployed it might move on 301 00:10:21,054 --> 00:10:23,070 from the company and then you're kinda left 302 00:10:23,230 --> 00:10:24,910 not sure what to do. So I will 303 00:10:24,910 --> 00:10:27,309 show them that from a PowerShell file, we 304 00:10:27,309 --> 00:10:30,110 call our Bicep templates. We deploy dev. We 305 00:10:30,110 --> 00:10:31,389 roll it out. They kinda have a look 306 00:10:31,389 --> 00:10:33,250 at it. They check the settings. They deploy 307 00:10:33,389 --> 00:10:35,309 their workload on top of that. All good. 308 00:10:35,309 --> 00:10:37,789 Then we move on to acceptance and production. 309 00:10:37,789 --> 00:10:39,514 So once they see the value of it, 310 00:10:39,514 --> 00:10:41,595 they're all in. And when I'm doing my 311 00:10:41,595 --> 00:10:43,995 architecture designs upfront, I always put in a 312 00:10:43,995 --> 00:10:46,554 section about why infrastructure of code's important, and 313 00:10:46,554 --> 00:10:48,075 they kinda get it. The the buy in 314 00:10:48,075 --> 00:10:49,914 to nobody's ever said, no. We're doing click 315 00:10:49,914 --> 00:10:52,250 ops. But what I still see is sometimes 316 00:10:52,250 --> 00:10:55,549 I'll deploy dev acceptance prod and some people 317 00:10:55,690 --> 00:10:58,090 manually change things, and then then they realize 318 00:10:58,090 --> 00:10:59,929 that there's drift. And then when they deploy 319 00:10:59,929 --> 00:11:02,090 the resources, all of a sudden acceptance isn't 320 00:11:02,090 --> 00:11:03,690 working, but dev is. And then they're like, 321 00:11:03,690 --> 00:11:05,049 yeah, what's going on? And then you have 322 00:11:05,049 --> 00:11:06,335 to show them, like, you have to use 323 00:11:06,335 --> 00:11:08,175 infrastructure as code, you have to use build 324 00:11:08,175 --> 00:11:11,215 pipelines, no touch deployment, like, but but I 325 00:11:11,215 --> 00:11:12,495 always want to do click ups to get 326 00:11:12,495 --> 00:11:14,175 things working quickly. I I get that. But 327 00:11:14,175 --> 00:11:16,335 sometimes you just have to, like, teach these 328 00:11:16,335 --> 00:11:18,175 people that that's gonna lead to pain. So, 329 00:11:18,175 --> 00:11:20,434 yeah, we've we've had a customer recently who 330 00:11:20,690 --> 00:11:22,690 we deployed dev acceptance and prod. We set 331 00:11:22,690 --> 00:11:24,929 up the workload and then they manually changed 332 00:11:24,929 --> 00:11:26,870 some things and, like, dev and acceptance 333 00:11:27,329 --> 00:11:28,929 was was working but dev wasn't and then 334 00:11:28,929 --> 00:11:30,769 it was because of the changes. Yeah. So 335 00:11:30,769 --> 00:11:32,529 just a learning curve, but that's the way 336 00:11:32,529 --> 00:11:34,795 to go. E easier to click run once 337 00:11:34,795 --> 00:11:37,035 on a pipeline Yeah. Or or an action 338 00:11:37,035 --> 00:11:39,355 than it is to click next, next, next, 339 00:11:39,355 --> 00:11:40,394 next, next, next Well, we have we have 340 00:11:40,394 --> 00:11:42,815 10 web apps and one of the customers 341 00:11:42,955 --> 00:11:44,394 was basically changing all the settings on the 342 00:11:44,394 --> 00:11:46,235 web apps and acceptance and dev was working 343 00:11:46,235 --> 00:11:48,690 and acceptance wasn't. And sometimes it's difficult to 344 00:11:48,690 --> 00:11:50,850 compare two different environments, and they're in the 345 00:11:50,850 --> 00:11:53,009 same region and they're in the same subscription, 346 00:11:53,009 --> 00:11:55,970 but, I'm sorry, they're different subscriptions, but, yeah, 347 00:11:55,970 --> 00:11:57,490 for for, like, web apps, there's a lot 348 00:11:57,490 --> 00:11:58,690 of settings, and I had to go through 349 00:11:58,690 --> 00:12:00,610 and manually compare them all. And, yeah, that 350 00:12:00,610 --> 00:12:02,450 was a bit of a painful exercise, but 351 00:12:02,450 --> 00:12:04,004 you kinda teach them that that's not the 352 00:12:04,004 --> 00:12:06,004 way to go. So we've kinda put delete 353 00:12:06,004 --> 00:12:08,004 locks in them or or making sure that 354 00:12:08,004 --> 00:12:09,605 there's PIN so that they don't they don't 355 00:12:09,605 --> 00:12:11,125 have access to go and do things unless 356 00:12:11,125 --> 00:12:12,804 they elevate and and and do that kind 357 00:12:12,804 --> 00:12:15,204 of stuff. Gotcha. Do you also find that 358 00:12:15,204 --> 00:12:17,970 you like, maybe those more traditional migration customers 359 00:12:18,370 --> 00:12:20,289 to teach them a little bit about I 360 00:12:20,289 --> 00:12:21,649 I imagine you need to wear a little 361 00:12:21,649 --> 00:12:24,209 bit of your software development hat and and 362 00:12:24,209 --> 00:12:25,189 kinda get into 363 00:12:25,809 --> 00:12:29,329 software development life cycle Yep. Because infrastructure as 364 00:12:29,329 --> 00:12:32,049 code Mhmm. That needs to live someplace. Yep. 365 00:12:32,049 --> 00:12:33,509 That that Bicep file 366 00:12:34,085 --> 00:12:36,325 and the history of it and the versioning 367 00:12:36,325 --> 00:12:38,245 of it, it's Yep. Gotta be in Azure 368 00:12:38,245 --> 00:12:40,565 DevOps or GitHub or hopefully some type of 369 00:12:40,565 --> 00:12:43,524 repository that's not your OneDrive or your desktop 370 00:12:43,524 --> 00:12:45,285 or a little thumb drive over in the 371 00:12:45,285 --> 00:12:46,899 corner. Yeah. That's the thing. You you have 372 00:12:46,899 --> 00:12:49,299 to source control the the infrastructure as code. 373 00:12:49,299 --> 00:12:51,940 And then, normally, what I do is internally, 374 00:12:51,940 --> 00:12:53,539 where I work, we we will create the 375 00:12:53,539 --> 00:12:54,839 repos for our customers. 376 00:12:55,139 --> 00:12:56,740 And then I'll I'll lay all the bicep. 377 00:12:56,740 --> 00:12:58,100 And then if they want, we'll give them 378 00:12:58,100 --> 00:12:59,700 the bicep and put it into their Azure 379 00:12:59,700 --> 00:13:01,764 DevOps, and then they can run pipelines. But 380 00:13:01,764 --> 00:13:03,304 we tend to do it in our repos. 381 00:13:03,524 --> 00:13:04,804 So it's me that's writing all of the 382 00:13:04,804 --> 00:13:06,725 code, and then they just they just review 383 00:13:06,725 --> 00:13:08,164 it and and check it. But, yeah, it 384 00:13:08,164 --> 00:13:10,184 needs to make sure that it's source controlled 385 00:13:10,324 --> 00:13:13,125 without doing proper proper proper pull requests and 386 00:13:13,125 --> 00:13:14,725 and rep approvals and all that kind of 387 00:13:14,725 --> 00:13:16,379 good stuff. Yeah. I also help build the 388 00:13:16,379 --> 00:13:18,220 pipelines for them because a lot of customers 389 00:13:18,220 --> 00:13:19,899 like, we've got infrastructure as code, but how 390 00:13:19,899 --> 00:13:21,580 do we deploy it? It's like, they don't 391 00:13:21,580 --> 00:13:23,500 want I'm gonna introduce you to our friend 392 00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:25,019 Gamel. Yeah. They they don't want me to 393 00:13:25,019 --> 00:13:26,940 deploy to production from my machine, which is 394 00:13:26,940 --> 00:13:28,575 totally fine. Well, I have to set up 395 00:13:28,575 --> 00:13:30,815 the pipelines for them, and then sometimes customers 396 00:13:30,815 --> 00:13:32,175 don't know how to do that as well. 397 00:13:32,175 --> 00:13:34,415 So I will build the ammo and build 398 00:13:34,415 --> 00:13:36,014 all the pipelines for them, and then then 399 00:13:36,014 --> 00:13:37,774 they're in a good place. But sometimes they 400 00:13:37,774 --> 00:13:40,095 just don't quite understand because on on prem, 401 00:13:40,095 --> 00:13:41,695 they're just manually changing things, and then they 402 00:13:41,695 --> 00:13:42,975 wanna do the same in the cloud. And 403 00:13:42,975 --> 00:13:44,549 they're like, no. Please don't. That's not really 404 00:13:44,549 --> 00:13:46,309 best practice. So so I learn and you 405 00:13:46,309 --> 00:13:47,750 just have to keep keep on the on 406 00:13:47,750 --> 00:13:49,350 this case and make sure they're doing the 407 00:13:49,350 --> 00:13:50,009 right things. 408 00:13:50,629 --> 00:13:53,370 It's quite funny sometimes. That reminds me of 409 00:13:53,669 --> 00:13:55,269 like sitting down with my kids maybe and 410 00:13:55,269 --> 00:13:55,769 like, 411 00:13:56,149 --> 00:13:58,309 no, don't do that. Yeah. Exactly. I I 412 00:13:58,309 --> 00:14:00,205 really need you to go do your homework. 413 00:14:00,205 --> 00:14:01,485 I mean, you tell them don't do that, 414 00:14:01,485 --> 00:14:02,764 they'll let it. But we've got it working 415 00:14:02,764 --> 00:14:03,804 then. And I'm like, yeah. You got it 416 00:14:03,804 --> 00:14:06,384 working, but it's not repeatable. And and eventually, 417 00:14:06,445 --> 00:14:08,044 it's things in that they need to do 418 00:14:08,044 --> 00:14:09,825 things properly. Gotcha. Yeah. 419 00:14:13,629 --> 00:14:15,789 Do you feel overwhelmed by trying to manage 420 00:14:15,789 --> 00:14:18,029 your Office three sixty five environment? Are you 421 00:14:18,029 --> 00:14:21,409 facing unexpected issues that disrupt your company's productivity? 422 00:14:21,629 --> 00:14:23,629 Intelligink is here to help. Much like you 423 00:14:23,629 --> 00:14:25,470 take your car to the mechanic that has 424 00:14:25,470 --> 00:14:27,629 specialized knowledge on how to best keep your 425 00:14:27,629 --> 00:14:30,654 car running, Intelligent helps you with your Microsoft 426 00:14:30,715 --> 00:14:32,894 cloud environment because that's their expertise. 427 00:14:33,355 --> 00:14:35,595 Intelligent keeps up with the latest updates in 428 00:14:35,595 --> 00:14:37,754 the Microsoft cloud to help keep your business 429 00:14:37,754 --> 00:14:39,995 running smoothly and ahead of the curve. Whether 430 00:14:39,995 --> 00:14:42,075 you are a small organization with just a 431 00:14:42,075 --> 00:14:44,549 few users up to an organization of several 432 00:14:44,549 --> 00:14:45,529 thousand employees, 433 00:14:45,909 --> 00:14:47,830 they want to partner with you to implement 434 00:14:47,830 --> 00:14:50,649 and administer your Microsoft cloud technology. 435 00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:54,809 Visit them at intelleginc.com/podcast. 436 00:14:55,110 --> 00:15:01,824 That's intelligink,.com/podcast 437 00:15:02,284 --> 00:15:04,365 for more information or to schedule a thirty 438 00:15:04,365 --> 00:15:06,464 minute call to get started with them today. 439 00:15:06,684 --> 00:15:10,044 Remember, Intelligink focuses on the Microsoft cloud so 440 00:15:10,044 --> 00:15:11,759 you can focus on your business. 441 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:15,540 And how much do you find 442 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:16,740 that 443 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,600 you you you kinda spend your time just 444 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,679 keeping up with the churn of Azure? And 445 00:15:21,679 --> 00:15:23,279 and as you see so you mentioned maybe, 446 00:15:23,279 --> 00:15:24,720 like, deploying, like, a web app for a 447 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,065 customer, and they had two environments and a 448 00:15:27,065 --> 00:15:29,225 setting changed over here and over here. Web 449 00:15:29,225 --> 00:15:31,304 apps are also changing as as they go, 450 00:15:31,304 --> 00:15:32,985 things like that. Like, how do you think 451 00:15:32,985 --> 00:15:35,164 about that as an architect and incorporating 452 00:15:35,784 --> 00:15:38,904 maybe additional parameters into your templates and Yeah. 453 00:15:38,904 --> 00:15:41,289 It's it's challenging. Yeah. I mean, I I 454 00:15:41,289 --> 00:15:42,569 do a lot of training and and when 455 00:15:42,569 --> 00:15:44,250 you're doing training and have the slides and 456 00:15:44,250 --> 00:15:45,529 you're like, let's go into a storage account 457 00:15:45,529 --> 00:15:47,370 and deploy a storage account and the settings 458 00:15:47,370 --> 00:15:49,370 will change because the the the UI of 459 00:15:49,370 --> 00:15:51,089 the the portal updates quite a lot and 460 00:15:51,289 --> 00:15:54,014 yeah. It's challenging. It definitely is. So to 461 00:15:54,014 --> 00:15:55,454 kinda keep on top of that, we are 462 00:15:55,454 --> 00:15:57,375 making use of what's called the Azure verified 463 00:15:57,375 --> 00:16:00,334 modules. So within Bicep, Microsoft are working on 464 00:16:00,334 --> 00:16:03,054 this Bicep kind of ex they extract the 465 00:16:03,054 --> 00:16:04,735 modules for you, they write the modules for 466 00:16:04,735 --> 00:16:06,430 you, and then we just call them. So 467 00:16:06,430 --> 00:16:08,750 they've got an ongoing GitHub project called Azure 468 00:16:08,750 --> 00:16:11,230 Verified Modules. They've pretty much got all of 469 00:16:11,230 --> 00:16:13,470 the Azure resources built, and we just call 470 00:16:13,470 --> 00:16:14,830 that. So we make use of that, which 471 00:16:14,830 --> 00:16:16,990 is which is awesome. Going forward, Microsoft are 472 00:16:16,990 --> 00:16:18,990 kinda trying to push everybody towards using Azure 473 00:16:18,990 --> 00:16:21,565 Verified Modules. So that helps a lot. So, 474 00:16:21,625 --> 00:16:23,544 yeah. So I I work in Azure storage. 475 00:16:23,544 --> 00:16:25,225 Mhmm. I'm I'm one of the people that 476 00:16:25,225 --> 00:16:27,625 signs off on those on the on those 477 00:16:27,625 --> 00:16:30,184 verified modules for for the team that that 478 00:16:30,184 --> 00:16:31,865 builds them and pushes them out there. I 479 00:16:31,865 --> 00:16:34,225 think it's a a very interesting model that 480 00:16:34,345 --> 00:16:36,809 that's kind of moving there. If you think 481 00:16:36,809 --> 00:16:38,830 about, like, being a customer in the past, 482 00:16:39,049 --> 00:16:41,850 you might have gone to Microsoft and read 483 00:16:41,850 --> 00:16:44,269 the documentation or landed up in a samples 484 00:16:44,330 --> 00:16:46,730 repo, things like that. But you were largely 485 00:16:46,730 --> 00:16:48,730 left to your own devices. Yep. And and 486 00:16:48,730 --> 00:16:49,629 sure, there's 487 00:16:49,934 --> 00:16:51,615 support there. Yep. And and you can reach 488 00:16:51,615 --> 00:16:53,535 out to CSS, but they might have to 489 00:16:53,855 --> 00:16:55,715 Microsoft customer support. But they 490 00:16:56,254 --> 00:16:58,174 they kinda have to do some debugging and 491 00:16:58,174 --> 00:16:59,855 and things with you along the way. So 492 00:16:59,855 --> 00:17:01,075 one of one of the niceties 493 00:17:01,615 --> 00:17:04,429 of AVM or those Azure Terraform 494 00:17:17,609 --> 00:17:19,674 modules in there Terraform modules in there as 495 00:17:19,674 --> 00:17:21,514 well. So it's not just Bicep. It's Bicep 496 00:17:21,514 --> 00:17:23,514 and Terraform. They're there. And and one of 497 00:17:23,514 --> 00:17:25,134 the things that I like about those 498 00:17:25,434 --> 00:17:25,934 is 499 00:17:26,394 --> 00:17:29,115 not only the kind of nice sample nature 500 00:17:29,115 --> 00:17:31,595 that's there, they've also implemented a bunch of 501 00:17:31,595 --> 00:17:32,095 best 502 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,320 practices and learnings that come in. Like, I 503 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:36,271 I know when we were working on the 504 00:17:36,271 --> 00:17:38,160 storage modules and kind of working through that 505 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,160 partnership, there was a lot of kind of 506 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:41,619 things around best practices, 507 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,960 best default state. What's what's what's just like 508 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,275 the best configuration? If somebody picked this up 509 00:17:47,275 --> 00:17:49,375 and they did a fire and forget deployment, 510 00:17:49,835 --> 00:17:51,835 what's the best state that customer needs to 511 00:17:51,835 --> 00:17:54,075 be in and where they need to be? 512 00:17:54,075 --> 00:17:55,914 So there there's a lot of that in 513 00:17:55,914 --> 00:17:58,234 there as well. Like, zone of resiliency is 514 00:17:58,234 --> 00:18:00,015 a consideration from the front 515 00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:02,340 and being able to tie that all together. 516 00:18:02,340 --> 00:18:02,840 So 517 00:18:03,220 --> 00:18:05,320 I I think as AVM matures, 518 00:18:05,860 --> 00:18:09,140 it'll definitely become a a good place for 519 00:18:09,140 --> 00:18:10,900 customers to to look to. I have a 520 00:18:10,900 --> 00:18:12,500 lot of my customers come to me today 521 00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:13,154 and say, 522 00:18:13,875 --> 00:18:14,615 why EVM? 523 00:18:15,474 --> 00:18:18,134 Especially my Terraform customers, why EVM versus 524 00:18:18,515 --> 00:18:20,855 the HashiCorp modules or the 525 00:18:21,674 --> 00:18:23,555 or or something else that's out there in 526 00:18:23,555 --> 00:18:24,615 open source. And, 527 00:18:24,994 --> 00:18:26,515 really, I think the biggest thing is the 528 00:18:26,515 --> 00:18:27,015 supportability 529 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:31,099 built, maintained, 530 00:18:31,559 --> 00:18:32,059 supported 531 00:18:33,319 --> 00:18:33,900 by Microsoft, 532 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:34,940 and 533 00:18:35,319 --> 00:18:38,359 customers get that support as well. So I'd 534 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:39,960 encourage anybody to go out and take a 535 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:40,779 look at APM. 536 00:18:41,234 --> 00:18:42,295 Some of the modules 537 00:18:42,674 --> 00:18:44,755 are kind of in a beta state, alpha 538 00:18:44,755 --> 00:18:46,434 state. They're they're they're in various states of 539 00:18:46,434 --> 00:18:46,934 release. 540 00:18:47,555 --> 00:18:49,394 But as that gets sealed up across all 541 00:18:49,394 --> 00:18:51,255 the services that are out there, it becomes 542 00:18:51,394 --> 00:18:53,954 kind of a broader ecosystem over time. One 543 00:18:53,954 --> 00:18:55,960 of the best things I think is you 544 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:57,400 can you can put that in a design 545 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,240 for a customer. So I'm designing right now, 546 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,180 design document, I can tell them all this. 547 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,900 And the documentation for the Azure verified modules 548 00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:06,680 references the Well Architected Framework. And one of 549 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,519 the best things about the docs for EVM 550 00:19:08,519 --> 00:19:10,220 is you can go to usage examples 551 00:19:10,605 --> 00:19:12,605 and the bot one is always well well 552 00:19:12,605 --> 00:19:14,865 architected framework and it shows you the Bicep. 553 00:19:15,005 --> 00:19:17,744 So the docs for Bicep alone are sometimes 554 00:19:17,964 --> 00:19:19,565 a little bit tricky to to figure out 555 00:19:19,565 --> 00:19:21,565 what is the ID reference, what is what 556 00:19:21,644 --> 00:19:23,404 it says it's an array, the property might 557 00:19:23,404 --> 00:19:25,170 say an array and you're not sure what 558 00:19:25,170 --> 00:19:27,730 goes in that array. But the AVM, the 559 00:19:27,730 --> 00:19:30,130 well architected framework, has very nice examples of 560 00:19:30,130 --> 00:19:31,970 how to deploy things with best practice in 561 00:19:31,970 --> 00:19:33,410 mind to that. That's one of the keys 562 00:19:33,410 --> 00:19:34,930 of using it, I think. Yeah. And it 563 00:19:34,930 --> 00:19:36,690 will it will make it better going forward. 564 00:19:36,690 --> 00:19:37,750 Yeah. Yeah. 565 00:19:38,049 --> 00:19:39,664 Not just just raised, but, like, the the 566 00:19:39,664 --> 00:19:42,565 fixed enums, the fixed values. I think it's 567 00:19:42,625 --> 00:19:44,244 a kind of good set of, 568 00:19:44,545 --> 00:19:47,265 if not best practices, certainly like guardrails or 569 00:19:47,265 --> 00:19:49,664 referential material. Yep. In the case of, like, 570 00:19:49,664 --> 00:19:51,825 a storage account, you you don't we might 571 00:19:51,825 --> 00:19:54,660 want the underscore, like, standard underscore LRS versus 572 00:19:54,660 --> 00:19:56,980 just standard LRS. Like, whatever it happens to 573 00:19:56,980 --> 00:19:57,480 be 574 00:19:57,940 --> 00:19:59,960 as as you're pumping those things through. 575 00:20:00,339 --> 00:20:01,940 I I I'm curious because you you you 576 00:20:01,940 --> 00:20:04,660 mentioned kind of architectural docs and design docs 577 00:20:04,660 --> 00:20:06,835 and things like that. Do you take advantage 578 00:20:06,974 --> 00:20:09,214 of kind of any of the tooling that's 579 00:20:09,214 --> 00:20:10,335 out there? Maybe do you have a favorite 580 00:20:10,335 --> 00:20:13,055 one for, like, visualizing your templates and the 581 00:20:13,055 --> 00:20:14,674 resources that are visualizing, 582 00:20:15,134 --> 00:20:17,375 I Yeah. Sometimes I just when I deploy 583 00:20:17,375 --> 00:20:19,455 the bicep in Visual Studio Code, you can 584 00:20:19,455 --> 00:20:21,779 get a a resource visualizer. But one tool 585 00:20:21,779 --> 00:20:23,299 I'd really like to call out is what's 586 00:20:23,299 --> 00:20:26,099 called the AZ quick review, AZ QR. I 587 00:20:26,099 --> 00:20:27,539 don't know if not a lot of people 588 00:20:27,539 --> 00:20:28,819 know about this. I have not heard of 589 00:20:28,819 --> 00:20:29,859 this. So it's an ex It's a cool 590 00:20:29,859 --> 00:20:32,019 name. It's a GitHub project. It's a open 591 00:20:32,019 --> 00:20:34,335 source GitHub project. And if you run that, 592 00:20:34,575 --> 00:20:35,934 so what we do is we run this 593 00:20:35,934 --> 00:20:38,414 tool after we've built the the bicep. We've 594 00:20:38,414 --> 00:20:40,095 run the pipeline. The last step of the 595 00:20:40,095 --> 00:20:42,015 pipeline is you can point it at your 596 00:20:42,015 --> 00:20:44,335 subscription where you've just deployed it. And against 597 00:20:44,335 --> 00:20:46,494 the way I'll architect the framework, it'll generate 598 00:20:46,494 --> 00:20:48,820 a CSV that lists all the resources. It 599 00:20:48,820 --> 00:20:50,980 will tell you your security scores. It will 600 00:20:50,980 --> 00:20:51,480 recommend 601 00:20:51,779 --> 00:20:53,700 what you've not done, what you should do. 602 00:20:53,700 --> 00:20:55,859 And it's very in-depth and it is very 603 00:20:55,859 --> 00:20:57,940 good for finding out like, oh, I'm using 604 00:20:57,940 --> 00:21:00,420 service endpoints. I should really be using private 605 00:21:00,420 --> 00:21:03,964 endpoints. I'm not using TLS 1.3 or 1.2. 606 00:21:03,964 --> 00:21:05,884 It'll tell you all that good stuff that 607 00:21:05,884 --> 00:21:07,644 is built in. So we just call this 608 00:21:07,644 --> 00:21:09,404 tool. You can run it against a tenant 609 00:21:09,404 --> 00:21:11,164 and do all the subscriptions. You can run 610 00:21:11,164 --> 00:21:13,244 it against an individual subscription or you can 611 00:21:13,244 --> 00:21:14,845 even do it against a resource group and 612 00:21:14,845 --> 00:21:16,880 even a resource. And it prompts out a 613 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,720 CSV file at the end and you redo 614 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,079 that as part of the build. You get 615 00:21:20,079 --> 00:21:22,720 the art artifact from Azure DevOps, and you've 616 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,480 got something to show the customer. And you 617 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:25,759 can do that. You can run that tool 618 00:21:25,759 --> 00:21:27,200 at any point. So if you're not even 619 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:28,914 using Bicep, you can still run the tool 620 00:21:28,914 --> 00:21:30,755 against your environment, and it'll give you a 621 00:21:30,755 --> 00:21:33,154 list of recommendations. So excellent. It's really good. 622 00:21:33,154 --> 00:21:35,234 I wish Microsoft would look take maybe even 623 00:21:35,234 --> 00:21:37,555 do something towards using something like that because 624 00:21:37,555 --> 00:21:39,715 it's really useful. Once you've deployed your your 625 00:21:39,715 --> 00:21:41,715 infrastructure's code, it basically gives you a score 626 00:21:41,715 --> 00:21:43,480 and says here's the good parts, here's the 627 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,000 not so good parts. Go and fix that. 628 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,000 And that's, again, against the well architected framework. 629 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,240 So it's building on top of AVM as 630 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,579 well. Gotcha. Yeah. So what what's your 631 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:52,460 favorite 632 00:21:52,759 --> 00:21:53,740 feature in Bicep? 633 00:21:54,039 --> 00:21:55,880 Favorite feature in Bicep? Oh, that's a good 634 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,724 question. Let me think. I only think. Favorite 635 00:21:57,724 --> 00:21:58,625 feature in Bicep. 636 00:21:59,085 --> 00:22:01,325 I like the Bicep parameters. So that's a 637 00:22:01,325 --> 00:22:02,924 kind of when you have a a main 638 00:22:02,924 --> 00:22:05,644 dot Bicep file, and we talked about before 639 00:22:05,644 --> 00:22:08,044 where you're deploying the dev environment, the test 640 00:22:08,044 --> 00:22:10,784 environment, and the production environment, these three environments 641 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,759 may differ just from the the size of 642 00:22:13,759 --> 00:22:15,519 the VM, let's say. So the VM for 643 00:22:15,519 --> 00:22:17,380 dev may be like a a small VM, 644 00:22:17,519 --> 00:22:19,200 and then you can have a para a 645 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,440 bisect parameter file for the the dev environment. 646 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,505 We've also got one for acceptance and prod. 647 00:22:23,505 --> 00:22:24,964 So the acceptance and prod 648 00:22:25,265 --> 00:22:28,144 variables will consider a larger VM, more disk 649 00:22:28,144 --> 00:22:29,984 size, maybe an extra disk. So you can 650 00:22:29,984 --> 00:22:31,904 configure all that and bicep. So that means 651 00:22:31,904 --> 00:22:34,625 that you're deploying all these resources with three 652 00:22:34,625 --> 00:22:36,865 different environments with the three different settings. So 653 00:22:36,865 --> 00:22:38,480 that, I really like that. I think that's 654 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,099 really cool. That's been out for a while. 655 00:22:40,159 --> 00:22:41,759 Yeah. It's it's a good way to rationalize 656 00:22:41,759 --> 00:22:44,079 things through, like, because often it's t shirt 657 00:22:44,079 --> 00:22:46,240 sizing. It's small, medium, large. And that's much 658 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,200 easier for somebody to figure out than what's 659 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:50,419 a d sixteen 660 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,615 Yep. V five or v six or Yep. 661 00:22:53,755 --> 00:22:55,474 Oh, oh, no. A d 16 s versus 662 00:22:55,474 --> 00:22:57,274 a d 16. And and and you can 663 00:22:57,274 --> 00:22:59,434 kind of bake that logic in into your 664 00:22:59,434 --> 00:23:00,174 own custom 665 00:23:00,554 --> 00:23:02,315 enums along the way. What what do you 666 00:23:02,315 --> 00:23:03,855 see as kind of the biggest 667 00:23:04,210 --> 00:23:07,090 kind of stumbling block or or pitfall with 668 00:23:07,090 --> 00:23:09,009 your customers and bicep today? Like if somebody 669 00:23:09,009 --> 00:23:09,990 is new to it, like, 670 00:23:10,450 --> 00:23:12,289 what are one or two things that they 671 00:23:12,289 --> 00:23:13,970 should look out for? A lot of our 672 00:23:13,970 --> 00:23:16,515 customers believe us to write the bicep, which 673 00:23:16,674 --> 00:23:18,355 getting them on board is quite tricky. You 674 00:23:18,355 --> 00:23:20,115 just have to, like, we will write the 675 00:23:20,115 --> 00:23:22,674 bicep and kinda sometimes they want to take 676 00:23:22,674 --> 00:23:23,794 the repo off of us and look at 677 00:23:23,794 --> 00:23:24,994 it and and they don't have the skills 678 00:23:24,994 --> 00:23:27,154 to learn bicep. So scaling them on on 679 00:23:27,154 --> 00:23:28,434 that is is sometimes a bit of an 680 00:23:28,434 --> 00:23:30,129 issue. Yeah. They they just want someone else 681 00:23:30,129 --> 00:23:31,730 to deploy it and then then they'll they'll 682 00:23:31,730 --> 00:23:33,109 put their workload on. So 683 00:23:33,410 --> 00:23:34,849 we tend to just look at the device 684 00:23:34,849 --> 00:23:36,609 that fall and deploy that. So it'd be 685 00:23:36,609 --> 00:23:38,450 nice if some of our customers had people 686 00:23:38,450 --> 00:23:40,289 who learn the device as well just to 687 00:23:40,289 --> 00:23:41,569 just to so when we are not that 688 00:23:41,730 --> 00:23:43,089 not around and they want to change it, 689 00:23:43,089 --> 00:23:44,769 then I've got other people to do that. 690 00:23:44,769 --> 00:23:46,505 Gotcha. And how about when you're out there 691 00:23:46,505 --> 00:23:48,505 training? You mentioned you're an MCT Mhmm. So 692 00:23:48,505 --> 00:23:50,984 a Microsoft certified trainer. Yep. Kinda what are 693 00:23:50,984 --> 00:23:53,085 the things that you point out to students 694 00:23:53,144 --> 00:23:55,785 to look out for? In terms of In 695 00:23:55,785 --> 00:23:56,765 in terms of 696 00:23:57,464 --> 00:24:00,779 maybe maybe not pitfalls of bicep, but here's 697 00:24:00,779 --> 00:24:02,859 some things that you should think about. And 698 00:24:03,099 --> 00:24:04,880 because like any other 699 00:24:05,259 --> 00:24:07,680 language, like it is a domain specific language, 700 00:24:07,900 --> 00:24:09,660 it's got a set of constraints and kind 701 00:24:09,660 --> 00:24:11,680 of guardrails in it and and and rules. 702 00:24:11,740 --> 00:24:14,315 Yep. But those also often come with new 703 00:24:14,315 --> 00:24:16,315 ways of thinking about things, and here's how 704 00:24:16,315 --> 00:24:17,054 you have to 705 00:24:17,514 --> 00:24:19,514 adapt your thinking. Or the way you did 706 00:24:19,514 --> 00:24:20,954 it over here in Arm might be a 707 00:24:20,954 --> 00:24:23,355 little bit an Arm template, a resource manager 708 00:24:23,355 --> 00:24:25,960 template might be Mainly around structuring the code. 709 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:27,159 So what I like to do is I 710 00:24:27,159 --> 00:24:28,839 put all the parameters at the top, and 711 00:24:28,839 --> 00:24:30,759 then I'll have the variables, and then I'll 712 00:24:30,759 --> 00:24:32,759 draw like a line and the styles across 713 00:24:32,759 --> 00:24:35,000 the code, and no hard coding from that 714 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,419 point onwards. So I try and teach people 715 00:24:37,454 --> 00:24:39,375 to make sure that the modules that you're 716 00:24:39,375 --> 00:24:41,934 calling, there's no hard coded locations. It's all 717 00:24:41,934 --> 00:24:44,595 parameterized at the top. It's all well documented. 718 00:24:44,894 --> 00:24:47,315 In Versus Code, you can use, a 719 00:24:47,694 --> 00:24:49,454 Versus Code Copilot and you can get it 720 00:24:49,454 --> 00:24:52,319 to document everything for you. Put descriptions above 721 00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:54,559 all your modules so that everyone knows what 722 00:24:54,559 --> 00:24:56,240 what the code does. I'm a firm believer 723 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:57,759 of leave the code in a good state 724 00:24:57,759 --> 00:24:59,359 so that some if I'm off, someone could 725 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:00,799 pick up the bicep and try and figure 726 00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:02,640 out what it's doing. I'll generate a diagram 727 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:03,839 as well and put leave that in the 728 00:25:03,839 --> 00:25:05,779 repo so people can see what I've deployed. 729 00:25:05,805 --> 00:25:07,965 Some of the pitfalls I always think are 730 00:25:07,965 --> 00:25:10,144 when you're using Versus Code as a beginner 731 00:25:10,285 --> 00:25:12,924 in anything, they say generate generate this for 732 00:25:12,924 --> 00:25:15,005 me and you never really learned, you know, 733 00:25:15,005 --> 00:25:16,605 I'm always worried that like you can let 734 00:25:16,605 --> 00:25:18,045 it fly from reading a book, but the 735 00:25:18,045 --> 00:25:19,410 minute you're sitting in a cockpit and try 736 00:25:19,410 --> 00:25:21,092 and fly a plane, you really struggle. So 737 00:25:21,092 --> 00:25:22,773 you need to get hands on and learn 738 00:25:22,773 --> 00:25:24,455 what things do. A good example is in 739 00:25:24,455 --> 00:25:26,137 a module in Bicep, you have the name 740 00:25:26,137 --> 00:25:27,818 of the module, you have the name of 741 00:25:27,818 --> 00:25:29,500 the deployment, and you have the name of 742 00:25:29,500 --> 00:25:31,182 the, like, the storage account for example, and 743 00:25:31,182 --> 00:25:32,864 those three names are different. And I see 744 00:25:32,864 --> 00:25:34,664 a lot of people creating the module called 745 00:25:34,664 --> 00:25:36,024 create storage and then they'll put the name 746 00:25:36,024 --> 00:25:37,704 of the deployment, create storage, and then put 747 00:25:37,704 --> 00:25:39,144 the name of the storage account, create storage, 748 00:25:39,144 --> 00:25:40,585 and then they'll start there and go, why 749 00:25:40,585 --> 00:25:42,664 is that not working? Because they haven't learned 750 00:25:42,664 --> 00:25:44,904 the reason these three parameters are slightly different 751 00:25:44,904 --> 00:25:46,720 even though they're all called name. So So, 752 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,240 yeah, there are one or two pitfalls of 753 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:49,759 learning it. But the other thing to do 754 00:25:49,759 --> 00:25:52,420 is if you're really stuck, deploy the resource 755 00:25:52,559 --> 00:25:54,640 using ClickOps and then go into the arm. 756 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,480 You can export the template. Now the feature's 757 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:57,920 coming out, but you can click on generate 758 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,080 bicep and it'll actually show you the bicep. 759 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,095 So sometimes you need to figure out, like, 760 00:26:02,095 --> 00:26:04,494 a good example might be TD encryption SQL 761 00:26:04,494 --> 00:26:06,414 Server. You deploy in the portal. You type 762 00:26:06,414 --> 00:26:08,014 the you type the portal, and then you 763 00:26:08,014 --> 00:26:09,294 can see the bicep and see what the 764 00:26:09,294 --> 00:26:10,734 setting is to turn that on. And that 765 00:26:10,815 --> 00:26:12,414 that's always a good way of kind of 766 00:26:12,414 --> 00:26:14,414 reverse engineering your bicep. I think if you're 767 00:26:14,414 --> 00:26:15,394 doing things like 768 00:26:15,694 --> 00:26:18,549 Azure firewall rule collections, the the documentation is 769 00:26:18,549 --> 00:26:20,150 quite tricky to kind of follow it. So 770 00:26:20,150 --> 00:26:21,670 you you deploy it by hand and then 771 00:26:21,670 --> 00:26:23,269 work out what goes where and then it 772 00:26:23,269 --> 00:26:24,390 needs to be in the right order. So 773 00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:25,830 that's that's always that's always a good way 774 00:26:25,830 --> 00:26:27,029 of doing it as well. That's one of 775 00:26:27,029 --> 00:26:29,430 the biggest pitfalls is figuring out what does 776 00:26:29,430 --> 00:26:32,309 the parameter mean? What what's it expecting? Yeah. 777 00:26:32,309 --> 00:26:34,234 Yeah. I do that with customers a lot. 778 00:26:34,234 --> 00:26:35,275 They they come in often 779 00:26:35,914 --> 00:26:38,075 they they I I think their intentions are 780 00:26:38,075 --> 00:26:40,234 good. Mhmm. So and and I I tend 781 00:26:40,234 --> 00:26:41,595 to be the same way. Like, I I'd 782 00:26:41,595 --> 00:26:43,194 rather get hands on with it than go 783 00:26:43,194 --> 00:26:44,954 read a book about it. Yep. And so 784 00:26:44,954 --> 00:26:47,930 I'll often just start opening Versus Code and 785 00:26:47,930 --> 00:26:48,430 and 786 00:26:48,730 --> 00:26:50,970 then, oh, it doesn't work. It's broken. But 787 00:26:50,970 --> 00:26:52,650 that trick of going to the portal and 788 00:26:52,650 --> 00:26:54,170 let me see how the portal does it 789 00:26:54,170 --> 00:26:55,930 because I I always used to when I 790 00:26:55,930 --> 00:26:57,869 was a trainer and and doing the 791 00:26:58,294 --> 00:27:00,775 the infrastructure exams, the the one point I 792 00:27:00,775 --> 00:27:03,515 always wanted my students to take away was 793 00:27:03,734 --> 00:27:06,775 the Azure portal, when you're deploying something or 794 00:27:06,775 --> 00:27:09,494 you are updating something, it is an ARM 795 00:27:09,494 --> 00:27:13,130 expression generator. Yep. So it it's great at 796 00:27:13,130 --> 00:27:15,049 expressing those values in a way that, like, 797 00:27:15,049 --> 00:27:16,410 you can go get to the end and 798 00:27:16,410 --> 00:27:18,509 and get the template. Get the ARM template. 799 00:27:18,569 --> 00:27:19,849 Great to hear that they've got get a 800 00:27:19,849 --> 00:27:22,809 bicep template coming. That that that's certainly a 801 00:27:22,809 --> 00:27:26,075 a nicety that's there. You also mentioned working 802 00:27:26,075 --> 00:27:28,974 in Versus Code, GitHub, Copilot, things like that. 803 00:27:29,034 --> 00:27:31,274 I haven't played around with ARM templates too 804 00:27:31,274 --> 00:27:33,355 much or really gotten hands on with with 805 00:27:33,355 --> 00:27:34,954 Bicep with GitHub Copilot, but I do a 806 00:27:34,954 --> 00:27:37,049 lot of PowerShell and Bash. Super helpful there. 807 00:27:37,130 --> 00:27:38,970 What's your experience been? Is is it a 808 00:27:38,970 --> 00:27:41,289 good Oh, fabulous. Good augmentor Yes. Where even 809 00:27:41,289 --> 00:27:43,470 for, like, new thing where it's Yeah. 810 00:27:43,850 --> 00:27:45,610 Yeah. You can actually one of the things 811 00:27:45,610 --> 00:27:47,289 that people might not know is I talked 812 00:27:47,289 --> 00:27:49,769 about AVM modules. You can go into GitHub 813 00:27:49,769 --> 00:27:52,525 Copilot and reference that external GitHub repo and 814 00:27:52,525 --> 00:27:54,365 ask it to generate bicep based off of 815 00:27:54,365 --> 00:27:56,924 that project. So instead of it gen writing 816 00:27:56,924 --> 00:27:59,744 generic bicep, it'll actually write bicep that's targeting 817 00:27:59,804 --> 00:28:01,884 the Azure verified modules, which is really good. 818 00:28:01,884 --> 00:28:03,505 So I use it to generate documentation. 819 00:28:04,045 --> 00:28:05,789 If I'm doing if I'm even if I'm 820 00:28:05,789 --> 00:28:07,470 doing bash scripts or I'm looking at someone 821 00:28:07,470 --> 00:28:09,710 else's script, I always do slash explain and 822 00:28:09,710 --> 00:28:11,470 it'll it'll explain to me what the script's 823 00:28:11,470 --> 00:28:14,450 doing. That's also very helpful. Mainly generate documentation, 824 00:28:14,909 --> 00:28:16,990 putting your variables at the top, making sure 825 00:28:16,990 --> 00:28:19,674 there's descriptions on everything, and kind of explaining 826 00:28:19,755 --> 00:28:20,955 I was trying to write a little bit 827 00:28:20,955 --> 00:28:22,394 at the top of the file on explaining 828 00:28:22,394 --> 00:28:24,154 what I'm trying to do. Like, what I've 829 00:28:24,234 --> 00:28:26,154 maybe I've taken a what I sometimes do 830 00:28:26,154 --> 00:28:27,994 is I'll go to the Azure Architecture Center. 831 00:28:27,994 --> 00:28:30,075 I'll look for the zero trust diagram. I'll 832 00:28:30,075 --> 00:28:31,914 deploy that as an example when I'm teaching 833 00:28:31,914 --> 00:28:33,674 someone Bicep, and I'll put in the link 834 00:28:33,674 --> 00:28:35,910 to the diagram, explain all of the resources 835 00:28:36,049 --> 00:28:37,650 at the top of the the Bicep file 836 00:28:37,650 --> 00:28:39,570 so that people have got some understanding before 837 00:28:39,570 --> 00:28:41,490 it's doing. Because that's what I tend to 838 00:28:41,490 --> 00:28:43,570 see is when people are deploying Bicep for 839 00:28:43,570 --> 00:28:44,930 the first time, they don't know how to 840 00:28:44,930 --> 00:28:46,529 make resources talk to each other. So someone 841 00:28:46,529 --> 00:28:48,054 will create a storage account, someone will create 842 00:28:48,054 --> 00:28:49,734 a manager of the entity and a SQL 843 00:28:49,734 --> 00:28:51,174 Server, and then they'll say, how do I 844 00:28:51,174 --> 00:28:52,455 get the manager of the entity to talk 845 00:28:52,455 --> 00:28:53,815 to the SQL Server to get to go 846 00:28:53,815 --> 00:28:55,494 to the storage account? And then that's where 847 00:28:55,494 --> 00:28:57,255 it starts to get tricky. You you just 848 00:28:57,255 --> 00:28:58,695 need to read the docs and spend a 849 00:28:58,695 --> 00:29:00,215 lot of time in figuring it out or 850 00:29:00,215 --> 00:29:02,615 deploy it manually and reverse engineer. That's that's 851 00:29:02,615 --> 00:29:04,109 the way forward. I think it's always been 852 00:29:04,109 --> 00:29:06,349 hard to figure out the Mhmm. Dependencies. Yep. 853 00:29:06,349 --> 00:29:06,849 And 854 00:29:07,230 --> 00:29:09,070 I don't know if there's just an easier 855 00:29:09,070 --> 00:29:11,390 way to do it. It's just the the 856 00:29:11,390 --> 00:29:12,910 way the system comes. Yep. If I give 857 00:29:12,910 --> 00:29:14,289 you a bunch of Legos, 858 00:29:15,150 --> 00:29:17,230 your Lego house needs to look different than 859 00:29:17,230 --> 00:29:19,595 mine sometimes. Yep. And sometimes that just turns 860 00:29:19,595 --> 00:29:21,115 into, like, oh, we dumped the whole thing 861 00:29:21,115 --> 00:29:22,235 out in front of us, and now we 862 00:29:22,235 --> 00:29:24,414 now we gotta figure out how that composes 863 00:29:24,634 --> 00:29:26,154 and and and how all that goes. Some 864 00:29:26,154 --> 00:29:27,835 of the other nice things is the Bicep 865 00:29:27,835 --> 00:29:29,515 configuration files. So if you're not used to 866 00:29:29,515 --> 00:29:31,115 that or you don't know about that, you 867 00:29:31,115 --> 00:29:32,875 can add a configuration file where you can 868 00:29:32,875 --> 00:29:34,335 say, like, don't show warnings. 869 00:29:34,769 --> 00:29:36,609 You can say, only use the latest version 870 00:29:36,609 --> 00:29:38,369 of AVM modules. That's a nice one. So 871 00:29:38,369 --> 00:29:40,049 if a new version of the module comes 872 00:29:40,049 --> 00:29:42,049 out, your code won't build and you have 873 00:29:42,049 --> 00:29:43,730 to go and change the code or you 874 00:29:43,730 --> 00:29:45,809 can make an error or a warning. Kinda 875 00:29:45,809 --> 00:29:47,009 kinda like, you know, I I might with 876 00:29:47,009 --> 00:29:48,775 the container. Yeah. Exactly. Say, hey, play all 877 00:29:48,775 --> 00:29:50,775 the latest image tag kind of thing. The 878 00:29:50,775 --> 00:29:52,134 one thing that we were talking about earlier 879 00:29:52,134 --> 00:29:53,575 is it would be nice to know if 880 00:29:53,575 --> 00:29:57,095 the underlying API has changed from version 0.12 881 00:29:57,095 --> 00:29:58,054 to 0.13, 882 00:29:58,054 --> 00:30:00,054 what are the changes? That's one thing we've 883 00:30:00,054 --> 00:30:01,710 we've we've asked for for some sort of 884 00:30:01,710 --> 00:30:03,549 feedback on, like, what was the difference between 885 00:30:03,549 --> 00:30:05,710 the previous API and this API? Because nobody 886 00:30:05,710 --> 00:30:07,309 really knows and it's really hard to find 887 00:30:07,309 --> 00:30:08,910 the docs. So that that would be an 888 00:30:08,910 --> 00:30:11,809 interesting nice change. I use I use Copilot 889 00:30:11,869 --> 00:30:13,230 all the time. And the more you use 890 00:30:13,230 --> 00:30:15,244 it, it starts to get frightening. You you 891 00:30:15,244 --> 00:30:17,325 start you may write Bicep for an Azure 892 00:30:17,325 --> 00:30:18,845 Firewall and it just knows that you're gonna 893 00:30:18,845 --> 00:30:21,005 write an Azure Firewall policy next. It's like 894 00:30:21,005 --> 00:30:22,924 it's like how did you know that? It's 895 00:30:22,924 --> 00:30:25,244 really, really smart. It's super useful and saves 896 00:30:25,244 --> 00:30:26,684 a lot of time. Thanks for taking the 897 00:30:26,684 --> 00:30:28,460 time to chat with me today. Thanks for 898 00:30:28,460 --> 00:30:30,480 having me. Let you get back over to 899 00:30:30,779 --> 00:30:33,820 MVP Summit and get some good learnings and 900 00:30:33,820 --> 00:30:35,900 and give us some good feedback and Will 901 00:30:35,900 --> 00:30:38,380 do. Thanks for coming in. Thank you. Thanks 902 00:30:38,380 --> 00:30:39,279 for having me. 903 00:30:41,180 --> 00:30:42,559 If you enjoyed the podcast, 904 00:30:42,875 --> 00:30:44,475 go leave us a five star rating in 905 00:30:44,475 --> 00:30:46,475 iTunes. It helps to get the word out 906 00:30:46,475 --> 00:30:48,715 so more IT pros can learn about Office 907 00:30:48,715 --> 00:30:50,174 three sixty five and Azure. 908 00:30:50,715 --> 00:30:52,315 If you have any questions you want us 909 00:30:52,315 --> 00:30:54,555 to address on the show, or feedback about 910 00:30:54,555 --> 00:30:56,899 the show, feel free to reach out via 911 00:30:56,899 --> 00:30:58,999 our website, Twitter, or Facebook. 912 00:30:59,379 --> 00:31:01,219 Thanks again for listening, and have a great 913 00:31:01,219 --> 00:31:01,719 day.