Hello, and welcome to Mike Epod podcast,
episode 355 for January 2nd, 2023.
And happy New Year. On this episode,
pianist Sophia Saba sek joins me to talk about her gorgeous and fascinating
new album in our softening,
which was written on and for a piano that she discovered in a church building
basement that had been sharing space with a well-documented hate group. It's,
there's a lot to talk about with this instrument. Um, uh,
this is just the intro to the show. I can't get too much into it. Uh, the,
the music though is intricate delicate, and it's really intriguing.
And hearing her talk about that creation of this album,
the discovery of the piano, all of these things are, uh,
outstanding. This is a great conversation. By the way, I'm your host,
Michael Herron. I'm a composer, pianist, electronic musician,
and storyteller based in New York City. On this podcast,
I have conversations with fellow creators who use their creativity to change the
world. I've been sending this podcast to your ears for well over 17 years.
If you like what you hear,
subscribe using the colorful buttons in the sidebar and footer@mikeepod.com.
Or you can just search Mike epod in your favorite podcast directory.
If you'd like to know more about me,
you can stop by my website@michaelherron.com.
Hit me up on social media everywhere ish.
I'm on and off social media lately, um, at michael herron.com.
And you can always send me an email@mikeypoddgmail.com.
So, hello, happy New Year. Uh, it's been a little while since podcast,
the holidays, et cetera, et cetera. Um,
I am curious what's going on, ,
what's going on with you this year? I've been really thinking about, I,
I have a very casual relationship with, uh, new Year's resolutions,
but I do like some things were sort of like getting in process for me
already before the new year.
So I'm feeling happy that a lot of it has to do with like,
the structure of running the business of my life,
and the business of my business, and the business of, uh,
this podcast and the other kind of creative work that I do. Um,
I am focusing this year on a single word that was, uh,
this idea was shared with me at a party the other night. Um,
now I forgot what my word is. What's the word for like a, uh,
let's call it abundance. Uh, that's not the word I chose,
but actually I like it better. Maybe that's why that happened. Yeah.
I'm focusing on abundance and feeling abundant, and I don't know, like,
just to put it in a short way, a lot of my life I've spent, you know,
as an artist, as a waiter, as a teacher,
finances for me have always been sporadic. Um,
and, um,
something you can't always count on being consistent and being an artist and
growing up in a society and in a world where, um, that's sort of considered, uh,
not a good hobby.
I I haven't really taken my life as something that could be abundant or I
never thought of it that way. And, um, just over the past year or so,
I've been really shifting in that way.
So a lot of like behind the scenes structuring and that sort of thing has been
happening.
And I really pushed the last week before the end of the year because it felt
like, okay, January 1st, all this stuff,
it's time to like keep getting the stuff in action and really, uh,
embrace it. So I don't know whether that's even something you care to hear,
, but that's where I'm at with the new year. Um,
and I really would love to know what the new year is looking like for you.
You can always comment on this podcast or on my social media or email me mikey
pot gmail.com. I really, I really want to hear from you.
So if you're listening to this podcast,
you have even the shortest comment to make. Let me know.
I'm really excited to hear from you. Uh,
another thing that's going on in Podcast Land is that I am going to work on,
um, doing some bonus material that'll come through the Apple Podcast app.
I'm gonna be setting that up this week. Uh,
I'm not sure what that's ultimately gonna look like and if I wanna stick to it,
um, but it's gonna be fun to sort of experiment and see what that's like.
And that's really it. That's my middle of the show check in for you. Um,
before we get on to the interview and some music from Sophia Zaya Vae,
I do wanna make sure that I thank my subscribers on Patreon for powering this
podcast and all the other creative work that I do.
These are people who subscribe for $5 or more a mu month and get special perks,
like tons of free downloads of my music and zines and bonus podcasts.
As I mentioned earlier, there are 90,
over 90 of them that you'll have immediate access to when you subscribe,
including this week's bonus episode,
which will feature an extended conversation with today's guest,
Sophia Zaya Vasa. So,
I mentioned in the beginning of the show a little bit about this album,
and I did it in a really clumsy way, and you'll,
I was feeling very clumsy about describing this album.
Uh,
you'll hear the music I'm about to play with track for you and the conversation
we have about it. The,
the piano itself is so imperfect sounding. And, um,
the thing that I really love is that the, the music is,
and the imperfections of the album became part of each, uh, sorry,
the imperfections of the piano became a,
a compositional part of the, of the music. Um,
that, yeah. I'm gonna leave it at that. Um,
there's so much great stuff in this conversation, but before we listen to it,
here's a track from the album.
This is called The Seas That Made Us, and following this we'll hear, um,
an interview with Sophia Saba,
That was the Seize that made us from Sophia Saba Sek,
who is joining me right now.
Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.
Thanks so much for having me.
Um, this album is really interesting to me. I'm also a pianist.
I don't know if you gathered that already.
I did, yes.
I, I gave a little background when I introduced the piece,
but I'd love for you to talk about this piano that you recorded the album on and
these pieces were written on.
Wow. So this piano is, I think, well,
certainly the first time that I had ever like,
encountered a piano or an instrument in general and just kind of immediately
fell in love with, like, we really just started a relationship from,
from the first moment, um, which was very, uh,
unique experience for me, you know, as pianists. I mean, you know,
we played so many different pianos and it's kind of like this weird relationship
where, you know, we have a performance and then that's it.
You kind of leave the thing. Um, and music that's written for the piano,
there's just this expectation that it'll be performed on,
on a lot of different instruments. Right, right. Um,
and so this was really the first time that I encountered a piano where it felt
like there was music that needed to be written just for this piano
. Um, and so yeah, this kind of immediately started writing music for,
for this very idiosyncratic instrument. Um, but it had been,
so, I guess just a little history about the piano itself. It had been in, uh,
former church building in the city where I live, Troy New York.
Um, and, uh,
a friend of mine had bought the building and turned it into his artist studio.
And so this is how I first came into contact with it.
He had told me he had this piano, he was trying to get rid of it,
and I played it. And, you know, I think I'd giggled a little bit. I was like,
oh my god, Howard, I have to have this piano .
Um, but yeah, it was, it was a very kind of magical.
The thing that's so cool about it, and I'm sure this is what grabbed you too,
is that there's so many imperfections about this piano,
but listening to the album,
especially when I listened to it with headphones and I was on the subway of all
things like letting like this subway sound sort of drift in through my ear
air, uh, AirPods and like,
really like experiencing the sounds coming from the piano that were not what we
might typically classify as music,
the sounds of the mechanism of the piano and the, um,
these things that really are a part of the pieces, like the,
they feel like an integral part of the piano.
Like the piano is making an appearance as a performer in this album.
Am I like overstating that? Or is are you feeling it too?
No, I think that's actually a really great way of putting it. You know, there,
there are a lot of incredible piano recordings out in the world
that are so pristine and, and clean and, you know, I I,
those are amazing too, , I'm not gonna say it one way or the other,
but I think that is kind of the, the magic of this, of this piano.
And what we really wanted to capture in the recording was all this other stuff
that's going on that I think just kind of gives it this, this layer of,
of, I mean for me, it,
it just feels like all the stories inside the piano are,
are coming out in all of those additional sounds.
And some of the stories are, like,
one of the things that I thought was really interesting and really grabbed me
about the history of this piano was that there was like a,
a hate group that met in this same room.
Yeah. It's really like, I don't know, I, yeah, I,
I've been kind of living with this story for a couple years now,
and I still am just sort of taken aback by, by this,
by the story of this piano. And yeah, so you're exactly right. There was, um,
uh, yeah, uh, they call themselves a church group, but it's really, um,
a hate group and, you know, very well documented in, in these parts. Um,
unfortunately they've gotten a lot of press, which, you know,
these kinds of groups thrive on attention. Yeah. Um, but yeah,
I just like thinking about this piano,
sitting in that room and hearing some of the things that were said. You know,
it's a very, uh, humbling, um,
feeling that this piano now is, uh,
for me, it's,
it's transforming what it had been absorbing into something positive
and and beautiful and bringing people together in a way that that group
was never gonna do.
I really relate to what you're saying about kind of releasing or helping
the piano to release its stories,
but it's so hard to like put that into words. Um.
It really is. Oh my gosh, thank you for saying that. Because ,
I also have a hard time talking about it cuz it feels so,
so loaded. And also like, you know, I don't,
I don't wanna get too like, woohoo about this .
But you can if you wanna like.
. But I do, you know, for,
for me that this is why I'm a musician is about that moment
of connection and, and bringing people together and,
and having music be the sort of catalyst for, for, for,
for connection and community. Um, and so, you know,
the fact that this instrument was in that room,
which really was the antithesis of what I feel like music is about and
instruments, you know, it felt like a very,
it just felt very important that this piano be used for
something that was the opposite of that.
I've watched the live performances of, um, oh,
I forgot the name of the piece. We just listened to the.
Cs that made us.
the Cs that made us That's okay. Sorry.
No.
No worries. And well, in the, in both videos is that, I mean,
it must be the piano, like that's the piano that you're playing in those videos.
Um, well, there's one live video that is on that piano, yeah. Mm-hmm.
. And then there's another one that's, you know,
a more music video of that same piece that we shot outside.
And that is actually not that piano that you're seeing,
but it's the recording from the album. So it is what you're hearing.
Oh yeah. So the video, that video is great. Um, well,
both videos are great. Others, I, I love this kind of conversation. I'm like,
oh yeah, I, when talk about that video. Oh, but wait,
I wanna off talk about that other bit. The, um, official music video,
not the live performance.
It was really interesting the way it was filmed and I didn't catch it the first
time, strangely, because now that I watch, I'm like, oh, obviously this is, uh,
it, it appears to be in slow motion.
Yeah.
What, this is just a, like, how'd you do that? Like, could be, cause you're,
you're playing with the recording like the, it's the,
the studio recording of the piece. Um,
you know what I'm talking about Better than I can explain it. So how, what did,
how, what was entailed or was entailed in creating that video?
Um, yeah, . So basically, yeah, we shot it in slow motion,
which meant that we had to make a track that was sped up
to the right, you know, ratio of time for the slowing down.
Um, and yeah, I, I had to practice playing it fast,
.
Oh yeah. Which.
You know, and so like obviously, um, if you're,
if you're really paying attention, you know,
you can see it's not really lining up and that's okay. Um,
but we wanted this,
this kind of gauzy dreamlike sense and that there's this piano
and this pianist playing outside. Um, and so I think it,
it honestly doesn't even really matter that it, it doesn't, you know,
cuz it's kind of dreamlike,
so it's not like you're really seeing a performance of this, of this song.
But, but in any case, yes,
I had to play it fast and on this piano that was outdoors that just
sounded so incredibly terrible.
And everyone around me , I was just like, oh my God,
I'm so sorry for what you're hearing right now, .
Was it, were you worried that I've, I'm just imagined myself playing it,
like wanting to tell everyone, Hey, everyone, this isn't, this isn't the record.
This isn't the thing that you're hearing. Yeah.
, this is something else. Like, neighbors walking by and I was like,
this isn't actually, I like, yeah.
. Yeah. But, you know, you achieved, and I think part of like,
I was kind of joking that I just didn't,
didn't realize at first that it was slow motion, but that kind of was,
is what's so cool about the effects because I didn't realize it and it did just
have this dreamlike quality that I didn't really register.
Something different was happening. It just felt very dreamlike.
But then I realized like, oh wait, this dancer is moving slowly but fat. Like,
yeah. So yeah, it's a, it's a really cool effect.
Will you ever perform these pieces on a different piano? Like, does that,
or they feel like they're just really attached to this instrument?
Yeah, that's, I've been getting that question a lot and I,
I have actually played some of the pieces on different pianos.
Um, both, both grands and uprights and yeah. At,
I think some of the pieces work better than others on different pianos.
Like the ones that are more textual, um,
don't work as well, I feel like mm-hmm. .
Cause there's also a lot of sound design in the recording, um,
which I think a lot of people don't realize perhaps on first, listen, you know,
they were very intentionally recorded and then also produced in a certain way.
Um, so yeah, I'm,
I'm definitely wrapping my mind around how
to perform these pieces out in the world and,
and I've done it and I'll, I'll keep doing it, but I'm also in the process of,
of reimagining them. Um,
so I've been just thinking about how I can play
these in, in ways that are just really very different from the album.
So it's not like, it feels like a lesser version, you know what I mean? .
Yeah. Yeah. That makes perfect sense because a lot of, I mean,
I was thinking of when I was listening to it,
the lot of the character of the pieces would not be
represented on a brighter, more like I,
anything I wanna say. Like,
the thing I love about the pieces and the way the piano sounds are it's
imperfections. . Yeah.
So I'm trying to find a way to talk about the imperfections in a way
that they're perfectly, they're perfectly imperfect , but you know, like,
but there's a sound to the,
to the piano that you perform on that
isn't, yeah. Anyway, I think I'm restating what you already said. It's.
Okay.
But that does make sense and it's really interesting to think of the pieces
themselves having a different life and being reinvented
for a different instrument.
Yeah. Yeah. It's,
it's a big question in my mind right now because I feel like the, you know,
so much of my creative output for the last like two years has been centered
around this piano. And it really took me through the pandemic and, you know,
some very dark days.
And I was at home with this instrument making music and recording,
and now it's like I have to , I have to journey beyond that the,
the safety of this instrument. And, um,
and I think it's, it's, it's new music, but it's also, uh,
yeah. Re-imagining what I've already written for that instrument.
Part of this album. And the composition of this album, um,
relates to your processing of some grief. Did I read that correctly?
That you'd lost your dad?
Yeah, yeah. You know, the, um, so that was in,
in 2015 and it was, it was pretty sudden.
And then I, um,
so then my f my last album Histories, uh, was really a very like,
direct kind of synthesis of, of that experience and,
and trying to connect to, um,
my family and ancestry that in a way because of him being gone.
And then, and then this album, I actually, um,
hadn't originally really thought of it in that way, but then as I was,
as I was coming to the, to the finish line of working on this album,
and, and it's really so different from histories, but as,
as I was thinking about it, it, it's like, wow, this,
it's all the same themes, , like, whether I like it or not,
like I feel like I'm still kind of processing, um, you know,
what it means to, to lose a parent,
what it means to lose a connection to um, you know,
to their, to their family, to their country, um, in this case for me.
And, uh, it's just a, yeah. So yes,
and I didn't, I didn't realize that until kind of late in the,
in the process.
Yeah. It's the, it's, uh, it, yeah. You know,
it's a process and it's a thing that we think, yeah, I, there's,
I did some work about the, um,
like some creative work and other kinds of work about the loss of my mom and,
and a lot, it was a very healing process,
but also like making art about something like that really
reveals more than . You might, you might realize,
well you probably realize cuz you've in that process too.
Yeah, yeah. Totally. Um, and of course this is, um,
I mean this is why we make art, right? Like the,
the most personal things that we can imagine
are actually what brings other people in Right. And connects us.
And, and of course, grief and loss and death is really like .
If there's one thing that ev we can connect with, with everyone, it's,
it's that. Right. Um, I mean it's such, uh,
an all-encompassing thing that every single human being goes through.
Um, so yeah, I think there, I've gone through stages of like,
wow, this feels so gratuitous. Like I'm all of my art,
all of my music is about like me and these very personal things,
but of course that's, that's what it is and that's what other people connect to.
Yeah. Yeah. It's a, that's a ongoing challenge,
especially being a, a solo artist. I,
I know you're not entirely a solo artist,
but like doing a lot of work that's just your music and you performing it.
And I'm relating to that cuz I do a lot of that too,
that it's easy to fall into. And maybe even those, uh,
I always forget the RuPaul has a perfect name for like the inner,
inner inner saboteur, um, that little inner critic that's like, oh,
here you go again. Making your art about you that you're going to,
you know, well do, do you experience that level of,
um, the, uh, self self-criticism?
Oh my gosh, of course. Yeah. of course. Um, I mean,
yeah. You know, like leading up to an album release, I feel like, you know,
it's not a real release if you don't go through at least like,
a few, few periods of just like, wow,
I can't release like, this should never see the light of day, like ,
you know? Yeah. Um, and it's, I mean, it's intense.
It's really intense and I think, you know,
an album that comes out like all people see is this beautiful finished product
and it's like, man, you know,
there were two plus years of just like going through these
cycles of, of writing and feeling really great about it,
and then cycles of just despair,
that you've spent all this time on something that you don't feel good
about. Um, and I don't know, it's, it's, uh,
it's like we know every artist goes through this,
but I also feel like it's not always talked about.
Yeah.
Yeah. And it's hard even,
even after having experienced my own version of that,
it's hard to remember how real it is when it starts happening. Mm-hmm.
and that feeling like that feel I like am so connecting with that
feeling of like, oh my God, what is this? Like this.
What have I done? Yes.
I can't, oh my God, what was, I think like yeah. All of that stuff. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm really happy that you got past all of that and,
and have released this album.
Yeah. Well, and I will say that I feel very,
very lucky that my husband Sam is the one who,
who produced the album with me and, and engineered it, you know,
and he obviously knows me better than anyone
really. Yeah. And so, you know, the darkest times,
like it was just good to have someone right there mm-hmm.
that was so deeply in my corner and just like,
understood this music and this project as well as I,
or even better at certain times, you know? And so having that,
that person there I think was,
was just really crucial Yeah.
And not everyone has that, you know?
And so I feel very fortunate that that was the case and I think it, um,
it also informed the music in a lot of ways and the way that,
that it turned out in the end.
Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. I,
I was wondering about the production and all of that kind of stuff,
so that's interesting. Like,
it's interestingly in-house within like your relationship anyway.
Yeah. It's extremely in-house . Yeah. Everything was in-house,
which was, um, another big, big difference with,
with Histories, um, you know,
where I went to the place and recorded with the person and
uh, you know,
and it's just a very different experience for this album.
You know, I, I really feel like this music, it,
I don't know that I would've gotten to the place that I really needed to get to
in terms of the intimacy and the, the vulnerability of it.
If I had been going to a studio,
and of course it would've been an entirely different thing anyway,
cuz it would've been a different piano and whatever, that's a different project.
But just having that experience of being able to,
to play that this piano with this person recording, you know, I think it,
it made the album what it is.
Yeah. Oh, I was,
I did a podcast interview earlier today and I, we both kind of confessed to,
she,
they are also a podcaster and that we like do podcasting to have an
opportunity to have conversations with people that we wouldn't otherwise.
And this is one of those conversations like, oh, this, um,
I love getting this type of insight about a piece of work like your album.
So yeah. Thanks for . Side note.
Thanks for sharing all of all this stuff. Course.
So the album is called Inner Softening and you make a lot of references
throughout like your website and I think I saw it on band camp,
like different places, um, how, I can't remember the exact,
something about Softies or an album for Softies did I See? Or something.
Like that. Yeah. Music for Softies, I call myself a softie. Yeah, yeah.
Is there more than just that in the, um,
composition of the album or how you looked at creating it?
Oh, that's a big question. . Yeah. Um, well, so as you've,
as you've gathered, I have very much, uh,
latched onto this word soft. And, and it, it happens, you know,
right away when I first encountered this piano and, you know, just kind of very,
very technically, physically the piano is, is very soft.
Um, and, and so, you know, kind of right away I was,
I was just imagining this very soft piano being in this
building that had been so hard and, and hateful for so long.
And I just started chewing on the word soft and all of it's
incredible meanings in, in so many different ways, you know?
Um, and it's just, I don't know, I just fell in love with this word and,
and all of its connotations and, um,
and I think as I was, as I was writing the music, you know,
it just kept running through my mind this idea of softness and how I can
create an album experience that invites people into
softness, whatever that might mean for them. You know, I mean, I have a,
a laundry list of, of definitions, um, you know,
softness of our hearts and minds and bodies and how we interact with
other people. Like, I just love this idea of like soft bodies
squishing together. Like there's,
there's the connection that happens there as opposed to like hardness where
things can't, um, interact in the same way. Yeah.
If that makes any sense. So yeah, it did, uh,
it really informed everything with this album and,
and it just started purely because of this very soft instrument.
That description of the instrument is kind of what I was trying to find earlier
when I was trying not to to insult the piano. ,
no. Like, there's the, the piano itself is so soft,
and I think that's what made me really wonder about performing these pieces on a
different instrument because in general,
some of the sound that you achieve in these pieces sounds like it's the
piano, you know, like it's,
some of the notes that are really intentionally brought out
probably take more effort than they would on a, on a different piano.
Just like so much of the kind of a, I think of it as like a wash feeling.
Sound like the, there's not a lot of attack on the, on the notes. Um,
yeah, that's true. So yeah, so that's what I think really, uh,
what I was wondering about, which you already answered,
but it may suddenly, I'm like, oh yeah, soft , that's,
that's the compliment I want for this piano. .
It is very, very soft . Yeah.
I love when, uh, you know,
people come over and play a little bit on the piano and
have similar reactions as I did the first time. And, and it's just, it,
I think it, it pulls you in because it's so intimate, it's so soft,
and so it just kind of forces you to listen very carefully.
And then you start hearing all the, the clicks and the mm-hmm.
mechanical sounds, and then you hear, you know,
and so it just kind of takes you on this journey with this instrument.
Um, and of course, listening intently and,
and carefully and softly is also a huge part of,
of what I imagine for, for this album and, and a listening experience, you know?
Yeah. And just for , for your, for your notes,
uh, the album has the same experience, you know, as you're listening,
as I was listening, different things started to uncover as, you know,
as you settle into like, okay, here's where we are.
And you can start listening to more different things and the different clicks of
the piano and the rhythms of the, of the clicks that, you know, like,
they feel separate and part of what's happening. It's,
it's, it's so cool. I really love it.
Aw, thank you.
. Uh, so speaking of, we should listen to another piece, uh,
before we go, which it's also time to do, um, we're going to listen to, uh,
the closing of the album after Stardust. Um,
and this this will also be our goodbye. Um, is there any,
is there anything particular you wanna, uh, mention about the,
the piece we're gonna listen to? And there doesn't have to be.
Yeah, I don't think so. I mean, I, I really, um,
I, yeah, I, I I try not to give too much, uh,
you know, kind of specific narratives to, to the individual songs.
I really just want people to go to their own, to their own place.
But of course, after Stardust, I always,
I think about Stardust as this kind of unifying thing. Another,
another unifying, uh,
thing for humans that we all kind of come from the same place and, you know,
the first track the seas that made us also, uh,
that we all come from the same primordial soup, you know, . Yeah.
Um, and so yeah, just, uh, like,
I guess the overarching idea that,
that we're all connected and listening to this music or any music or any art,
you know, um, finding those connections with people and,
and so yeah, after Stardust, I guess wherever, wherever it takes you, .
, uh, it has been so great to talk to you and, um,
patrons who are listening, if you want to hear more. Um,
we're gonna have a little second, uh, bonus, uh, exclusive interview.
Uh, that'll be on Patreon in a couple of days. Uh,
thank you so much for joining me, Sophia, on that podcast today.
Thanks for having me.
That was after Stardust from Sophia, Saba VAs, uh,
from her latest album in our softening. Thank you so much for listening.
Thank you, Sophia, for being on the show today. Um, oh, thank you all.
I legitimately thank you for listening to this podcast.
I know it's not always predictable when you'll hear an episode, um,
and as another thing that I'm going to continue working on.
Cause I love having these conversations and sharing them and discovering new
artists. Uh, so it's a really great process for me and, uh,
it's one that I w am going to continue to try to embrace. Uh,
so there you go. Thank you for listening. If you're a patron, um,
go by patreon.com/michael Herron, uh,
later this week and you'll hear a bonus conversation with Sophia Sava VAs.
And, um, I think that's everything. Um,
I have a couple new interviews that are ready to go. Um,
so I'll be releasing those shortly, perhaps in the next two weeks.
Um, one, uh, I'm, I'm going back to my goal of doing every Monday podcast,
so we'll see how that goes. And regardless, sincerely,
thank you for listening up. Your new year is wonderful,
and I will talk to you soon. Bye.