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Hello, and welcome to Mikey Podd podcast,

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episode 354 for November 8th, 2022.

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On this episode,

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composer Molly Joyce is joining me on the
occasion of her new album perspective.

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This is Molly's second appearance on
this podcast. Welcome back, Molly.

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And I'm endlessly fascinated by the
way her work focuses on disability

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as a creative source. And I
wanna give you this quote.

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I wasn't gonna get into
this yet, but I have to,

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I know we're still in the
intro. Let's not go too deep,

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but I want to give you this quote from
Pitchfork. In their review of this album,

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they said, Perspective,

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This album is a powerful work of love
and empathy that underscores the poison

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of ableism in American culture. Hi,

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come on for that poll
quote, <laugh>. So we'll,

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I'll be talking to this composer and
we'll be listening to some of her music

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today too. Uh, I am your host, by the
way, Michael Herron. I'm a composer,

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pianist, electronic musician, storyteller,

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and dormant activist based in
New York City. On this podcast,

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I have conversations with fellow creators
who use their creativity to change the

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world. I've been sending this podcast
to your ears for over 17 years.

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If you like what you hear,

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subscribe using the colorful buttons in
the sidebar and footer@mikeypodd.com.

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Or just search Mikey Podd in
your favorite podcast directory.

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If you'd like to know more about me,

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you can stop by my
website@michaelherron.com,

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and I really would love to hear from
you. Hello, welcome to the show.

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This is the check in time where I talk
about the things I would like to check in

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about <laugh>. Um, I'm working on some,

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I I've been in this phase lately of, um,

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how do I do this without getting too
deep? I, uh, my, my teaching, I'm,

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I'm a teacher. I've probably mentioned
this a million times on the show. Um,

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my piano teaching business this
year, I got very serious about, uh,

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policies, billing,

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a lot of different things just so I
could really make it a business. And, um,

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this has me on top of my budget in
a way I never have been before. Um,

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and I'm thinking about starting
to post this progress on YouTube.

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I don't wanna go too deep in it right
now, but <laugh>. But the general idea is,

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holy shit, I'm 53 years old,
um, in a ton of debt and,

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um, I don't have anything say
for retirement. So <laugh>,

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what do you think about that
as a YouTube channel? Um,

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but one of the reasons is I came
to a place finally where I kind of

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realized like, okay, so
there's no shame here. Like,

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this is just the situation.

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And I think that shame is something that
kind of has me in this position where,

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you know, I grew up at a time, well, I
mean, it's still that time, isn't it,

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where being an artist and a
musician is sort of like, eh,

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not considered a real thing. And
I really internalized that a lot.

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I also have pretty scorching case of adhd,

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which makes it difficult to see bigger
picture stuff, but there's a lot of,

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like, I feel like I've kind of come
to a place where I'm like not as

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feeling shameful about that,
uh, as I did before. So anyway.

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Does that resonate with you at all?

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If I were to start doing a
series of videos about that?

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Partly because I've been
looking for someone who is
in this position who's doing

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videos about getting out of it,

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and you don't really find
that exact thing. Uh,

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so it might be interesting to,
to just put it out there. Um,

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yeah, I'd really love your feedback
on that. If you're listening and,

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and it registers with you. Um, if you
do feel like asking questions like,

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How would you let this happen? Or
any other sort of shaming thing,

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please just keep that
to yourself. I, I don't,

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I'm already good with that kind of
<laugh> that perspective. Thanks. Um,

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the other thing is that I'm
starting another creative project.

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It's a very small one, um,

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that I'm hoping to have wrapped
up by the end of the year and, um,

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to share with folks. So I'm just saying
that also to keep myself accountable.

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Uh, and that's really the check
in that I have for you today. Um,

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I wanna make sure, I think my subscribers
on Patreon for powering this podcast.

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These are people who subscribe for $5
or more a month and get special perks,

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like tons of free downloads of my
music and zines and bonus podcasts.

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There are now, this, this week's
will be the 91st bonus podcast.

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I can't believe it. I still can't
believe I, what is this episode?

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300 something of 354 podcasts plus

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91 now bonus podcasts that
if I could add quickly,

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I'd tell you what that total is,
But that's a lot of podcasts.

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That's a lot of podcasts. Um, well anyway,

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you'll have immediate access to all
those podcasts when you subscribe,

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including this week's bonus episode,

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which we'll feature an
extended conversation with
today's guest, Molly Joyce.

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The track we're about to listen
to is, uh, called interdependence,

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but I wanna talk to you about the premise
of, of what you're about to hear. Um,

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Molly interviewed 47 different
people about how these

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different words, what
they meant to them, uh,

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so that you're gonna hear the responses,
What does interdependence mean to you?

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And you'll hear it, it,
it's gonna make sense now.

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So I'll stop talking and
let's listen to Molly Joyce

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Interdependence. And this is
from the album perspective.

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What is inter.

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I was foundational part of existing.

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For me.

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How you interact with,

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with the world is a direct relationship to

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interdependence.

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Boundaries.

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If there's anything,

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I would say that I'm
interdependent on my chair as

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a tool, not as a place, um,

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or my locker or whatever
I use as a tool. Uh,

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but I don't consider myself
interdependent on people.

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Plus.

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I'm also chair and knowing one's strength

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and.

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Weakness.

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And.

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Embracing those.

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Things.

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Is.

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Surrendering to your neighborhood.

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About rejecting that mastery model
that would suggest I know it all.

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I can do it all.

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I will impose it all on everyone else.

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And it is humbly recognizing that actually

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all of our lives are

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facilitating by multiple others,

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usually unseen, others,

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wherever any of us got it
required so many others,

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uh, to support us.

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And we should value that rather than
suggest that it's some sort of weakness.

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Collaboration.

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Access and inclusion and lack
of access and exclusion are

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interdependent on each other.

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A way of life for me. I mean,

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I feel like so much about life is that

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exercise and inters, you know,

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as somebody who needs,

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needs total help with daily activities,

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uh,

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you have to share yourself with others.

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You have to share your privacy
to with others. You have to be

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dependent on others and, uh.

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Have.

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A lot of life care.

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Mm-hmm.

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Wellness, both at your,

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the ability to do things all, you know,

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people that, to be incredibly at a,

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a loss control.

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It's.

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About being invested in
others' lives just as

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much as your own to be
connected to each other.

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Cause you want be, and you need to be, um,

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not cause you're expecting
something in return.

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I think human beings are
naturally interdependent.

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I get here by the bus driver in the
shop that sells me milk or coffee,

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uh, my porter at the door of my building.

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All of those other things which we take
for granted enable us to live the life

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we appreciate.

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And I think that normally people
ignore it and they think the

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disabled people are the ones that need
extra help, but we're all interdependent.

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The.

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Only way to be successful and in
truth in some ways to be happy is that

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kind of interdependence you get when
you engage with other human beings.

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So.

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Interdependence is that reliance
that we have back and forth,

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that exchange we have, not
just for physical need,

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but also emotional need. Um,
it's the fact that it's not, I,

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it's never, I, it's always.

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Realizing that we all
have our care networks

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and we all need them.

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That was interdependence
from Molly Joyce's new album

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perspective.

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And Molly Joyce is joining me for a
second visit to the podcast today.

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Thanks so much for being here.

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Yeah, thanks so much for having.

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Me. It's so cool to sort of like
touch base again after, you know,

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it's been at least a couple years.

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I should have looked up to
see when I talked to you last.

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Do you have a new album perspective
and the track we just listened to

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Interdependence is from that. Um, is
it, is it possible to give like a,

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the elevator pitch, I guess it's called?

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How much time do you have now,
<laugh>? Um, um, yeah, the album,

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I call it kind of like a
disability interview album. Um,

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so it features what I like to say,

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like the voices and viewpoints of
disabled interviewees responding to, um,

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concepts like what is access for
them, um, what is care for them. And.

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It's, and it was originally
a, um, installation. Yeah.

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Like there's so much I learned about
this that I didn't realize this was all

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going on.

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Yeah. It's more of, yeah,

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definitely the initial impetus was
an installation for like a public art

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festival, um, as part of a fellowship. Um,

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I was involved with that House Arts
lab in dc which then that was like from

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2019 to 2020, just so that, of course
that festival got canceled with Covid. Um,

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and then from that, I guess
with the Covid cancellation,

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but I think even from the
start of the project, I was,

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I wasn't always envisioning
as an album to be honest,

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but I was trying to keep
it as flexible as possible.

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I think especially Covid showed me to do
like online presentations or the video

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formats, et cetera. Um,
although I still, I don't,

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I probably shouldn't say this, but
I do like the dream format for it.

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Is the installation, like very,

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very much being immersed in it with the
sound and the projection in front of

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you.

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The inspiration for the album
was really interesting to me as,

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as it's written about in the press
stuff. Can you talk about that a.

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Little? Yeah, so I guess the, um, so
I, I'm fortunate to have a kind of, I,

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um, an ongoing whatever dialogue
if you will, with Judy Human,

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who's kind of a legendary disability
activist. Um, she had this,

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a memoir come out a few years
ago. I highly recommend.

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And she's also featured
prominently in Crip camp, um,

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the Oscar nominated documentary
on Netflix. Um, and,

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and one of my conversations
with her, um, she's really just,

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she's such an amazing mentor to so many
people cuz I feel like she always knows

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the right question to ask at the right
time, kind of progress your thinking. Um,

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and in one of my conversations with her,

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she asked why I referred to
my left hand this week. Um,

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and my left hand was impaired in a car
or accident about 20 years ago. Um,

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and I knew that I would always say like
if I had to explain why I couldn't do

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something or lift something, et cetera,
or if someone asked what happened,

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I would usually just say like,
Oh I have a weaker left side.

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Just to try to get it over with, I think,

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and kind of get my disability
out of the room in a way,

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like as fast as possible or
not go into a deep explanation.

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I think also a lot of
times for disabled people,

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like sometimes when you go into a deeper
explanation it elicits more questions,

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which can sometimes be really nice
conversation or lead to a not so nice

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conversation. It would be a little
more, I don't know the right word,

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traumatizing or so sometimes would try
to just get it out of the room as quickly

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as possible. Um,

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and this question really struck me cause
I don't think Judy was saying I have to

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refer to it as my strong left side
and deny weakness altogether. Um,

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but really to think about what
weakness means to, you know,

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myself as a disabled person. Um,

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but then we just started talking about
it as a really a central concept for

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disability culture and the
disabled experience. Um,

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and really wanted me to motivate,
like motivate me to ask like yeah.

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To of people across the range of
disabilities and experiences really.

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Like what is weakness to you or
what does that feel like to you? Um,

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what do you gain from that concept?

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I didn't write this number down.

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00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:22,920
Was it 47 different people
that you interviewed for this?

232
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:24,760
Am I remembering that
number or I just make it up.

233
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,280
<Laugh>? Oh yeah, yeah, so far.
Um, yeah, so I think, yeah,

234
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,640
with the project's taken a couple
different iterations, which has been nice.

235
00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,760
So it started with that kind of original
iteration in DC which I think I had

236
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,320
about 20 participants
with that. And then, um,

237
00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,560
took on a new iteration with
Minnesota with a festival there. Um,

238
00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:45,400
and then won in Idaho with a
disabled dance group there.

239
00:13:45,590 --> 00:13:49,160
It's such an interesting project because
of course it makes me think differently

240
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,560
about disability, hearing the perspective
of all these different people. Mm-hmm.

241
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,840
<affirmative>, um, and you
know, our conversation that
we had last time, really,

242
00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,360
like, I think the thing that's
really so cool about your work,

243
00:13:59,410 --> 00:14:04,160
it sort of raises questions about
assumptions I've always had,

244
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,200
you know, or you know, we talked
the last time we talked, um,

245
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,040
about virtuosity as musicians and um,

246
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,400
and it really sunk in with me
because, you know, for what,

247
00:14:13,790 --> 00:14:17,720
having studied music too,
like that whole, you know,

248
00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,040
there was a whole part of being a
musician that was about like being,

249
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:25,400
like music was about being
able to achieve particular

250
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,480
movements, like being able to
play a particular way. Yeah.

251
00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,080
And so that sort of really
opened my mind about like, wait,

252
00:14:32,350 --> 00:14:36,960
that's not what music is like.
And our conversation really,

253
00:14:37,020 --> 00:14:40,440
you know, opened that up for
me. And I think this really,

254
00:14:40,830 --> 00:14:44,760
I don't know like the the
question about why, uh,

255
00:14:44,980 --> 00:14:47,680
why you would refer to
your left hand as weak,

256
00:14:47,950 --> 00:14:52,360
really it opens up all these, these
questions that I haven't asked.

257
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:56,160
And I think that's why uh, I get a
little bit like stumped about like, ah,

258
00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:57,160
how do I express this?

259
00:14:57,470 --> 00:14:58,440
Yeah, exactly.

260
00:14:59,070 --> 00:15:01,920
Yeah. What was that
answer like for you? Now?

261
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,680
I'm wondering if you even answered
it already. Yeah. But like what,

262
00:15:04,860 --> 00:15:07,160
how did you answer that
question when, when she asked?

263
00:15:07,750 --> 00:15:10,800
Yeah. It's funny cuz I believe,
if I remember correctly,

264
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,800
I think I was telling her about
a collaborator of mine j Herman.

265
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:15,720
And we both have like impaired left sides.

266
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,720
And I think I said we both have weaker
left sides and I think that's where she

267
00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,120
started getting on the weakness,
um, track in a way. Um,

268
00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:27,600
and I think I was, I, it's kind of
speechless. I think I had a response.

269
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:28,520
Cause again,

270
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,920
it's like these words that you're so
used to saying to kind of explain your

271
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,280
condition or, you know, in this
case the collaboration. Um,

272
00:15:36,010 --> 00:15:37,160
so really stumped me.

273
00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:41,760
And I feel like even to this day having
done these interviews, I still feel, um,

274
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,840
just as confused, I think in a good
way more, I don't have a clear answer.

275
00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:45,280
I mean,

276
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,360
sometimes I feel like my answer to the
questions is maybe through the music,

277
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:53,280
but that's very much drawn from the
interviewee's answers. Um, so for me,

278
00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,000
I think I still feel like at a
starting point with those questions,

279
00:15:56,030 --> 00:15:59,480
I feel like in a good way though, where
I don't have a very prescribed answer.

280
00:15:59,850 --> 00:16:01,720
There's, I just think a lot about,

281
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,640
and I put some of this in in my email to
you when we were discussing this show,

282
00:16:06,030 --> 00:16:09,560
that like another thing with
me is that I'm, I'm older,

283
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:14,240
I'm fiftys 53, I'm old enough
that I'm forgetting how old I am.

284
00:16:14,420 --> 00:16:18,080
And um, and reading glasses
is something that I need now.

285
00:16:18,510 --> 00:16:23,000
I became aware of this long time of just
like struggling through and like, no,

286
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,880
I don't need those yet. And just trying
to hide the fact from myself. Yeah.

287
00:16:28,020 --> 00:16:28,853
You know,

288
00:16:29,540 --> 00:16:32,840
and I still like sort of make sort of
comments when I have to get out my reading

289
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,720
glasses now to read something
like, ah, I'm like so old.

290
00:16:36,140 --> 00:16:41,000
But I think that something about
your work reminds me like oh

291
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,480
yeah. Like we are all just
in the bodies that we're in.

292
00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:45,863
Yeah.

293
00:16:46,330 --> 00:16:49,360
Um, I don't Does that, does
that go anywhere for you? Like.

294
00:16:51,210 --> 00:16:54,440
Um, I think, I don't know if I'm gonna
articulate it well, but like that we're,

295
00:16:55,350 --> 00:16:56,080
I don't know we're,

296
00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:00,800
we all strive towards the ma the
maximized body I think in a way. And um,

297
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,240
I think even the question of cure, like
one of my interviewees said, you know,

298
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,760
from the moment we're born we start
deteriorating in a way where we grow up.

299
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,560
But then, uh, like we're always on
this process of disabling in a way,

300
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,520
which I found really interesting.
Um, and I think your comments,

301
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,000
I don't know if maybe cuz
this is like top of the mind,

302
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,520
but I watched this TV show like
last week and one of the characters,

303
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:24,200
there was a reality show and she said,

304
00:17:24,470 --> 00:17:26,920
I don't want to end up like
that person in a wheelchair.

305
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,640
Cause she had like hip issues
surgery. And it's like,

306
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,040
I feel like if you take that
sentence and apply to like,

307
00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,280
well I don't want to end
up like a female or like,

308
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,360
it would sound so wrong that it's
amazing to me how a lot of these ableist

309
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:42,440
thoughts like get reiterated through
society and I have it myself as well,

310
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,360
you know, or I'm going through physical
therapy for various things related to my

311
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:49,080
disability. But it's like
disarming when you start,

312
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:51,840
start to lose some of
that too. Or you just, um,

313
00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,320
very frustrating first I
guess in a way. And, um.

314
00:17:54,420 --> 00:17:59,120
And so many of these ableist
things that we say are still

315
00:17:59,330 --> 00:18:03,400
somehow acceptable, quote
unquote, like in our society.

316
00:18:04,210 --> 00:18:06,320
It just amazes me. And
I don't mean to like,

317
00:18:06,500 --> 00:18:10,920
I'm not a very con <laugh> confrontational
or I don't really like conflict and I

318
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,920
don't mean to say like, that word is
bad, this word's right or something.

319
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,160
It just more amazes me that these
phrases, you hear that again,

320
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:18,640
if you apply it to another minority,

321
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,400
it would sound like completely out of
whackers or completely problematic. And,

322
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,920
um, and I think it doesn't help anyone
like the non-disabled or disabled person

323
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,600
these words and terms or these, um,

324
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,080
perceptions overall of this
fear and stigma of disability.

325
00:18:33,690 --> 00:18:36,160
Mm. Yeah. And this sort of

326
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:38,880
shame that people,

327
00:18:40,010 --> 00:18:45,000
it implies a certain amount of shame that
people are expected to feel about not

328
00:18:45,630 --> 00:18:49,000
having the right kind of body. Yeah.

329
00:18:49,310 --> 00:18:52,680
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Or like,
but um, cause it's like, yeah,

330
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,120
I think when I initially started
getting into disability studies,

331
00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:58,960
so I was thinking like, yeah, like
what is the right tip of the body to,

332
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,640
you know, I just started thinking
like, what are we all striving for?

333
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,320
Like I don't have a clear image
in my head or something as.

334
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:05,153
Yeah.

335
00:19:05,230 --> 00:19:06,063
Like.

336
00:19:06,430 --> 00:19:10,000
Yeah, there's a, there was a
moment I had, it was a while ago,

337
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,560
but I try to kind of clinging
to it this idea of like,

338
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:18,560
what if the big joke on all
of us is that really our like

339
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,120
perfect, uh,

340
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:26,040
incarnation or our perfect existence
happens like the split second before

341
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:30,880
we die. Like the whole process
of our lives is to get us to that

342
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:32,840
point of perfection. Yeah.

343
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,240
Like all our aging and all these things
we're trying to do to avoid getting

344
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:41,200
older is like No, that's, that's the
thing that that's the gift. Yeah.

345
00:19:41,290 --> 00:19:42,070
Exactly.

346
00:19:42,070 --> 00:19:46,480
Yeah. Um, what, doing
all these interviews, um,

347
00:19:48,260 --> 00:19:53,120
did you learn anything that you didn't
expect to learn from conducting these

348
00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:56,640
interviews and listening to, I'm sure
you listened to them countless times.

349
00:19:57,310 --> 00:19:59,240
Yeah, definitely. I'm trying to think. Or,

350
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,640
cause this whole thing has been done
over a process of three years, you know,

351
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,600
or so some of the editing was,
or sorry, like two years ago.

352
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,440
So it's not super fresh
in my mind. But, um,

353
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,440
definitely learning on the perspectives.

354
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,160
I think especially I related to a lot of
interviewees who acquire disabilities,

355
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,400
like I think it was
the question about, um,

356
00:20:17,510 --> 00:20:19,740
is it or cure again? Um,

357
00:20:19,740 --> 00:20:22,900
like in one interview he talks
about who acquired her disability.

358
00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:25,580
I believe the vision impairment
just says like, yeah,

359
00:20:25,580 --> 00:20:28,860
you always wonder about like, what
if that didn't happen or, or for me,

360
00:20:28,860 --> 00:20:32,740
like that accident, but then you
wonder who you would be today,

361
00:20:32,740 --> 00:20:34,620
like without that or if
you'd be the same person.

362
00:20:34,620 --> 00:20:37,180
That kind of gives me chills
in the course. I mean,

363
00:20:37,180 --> 00:20:40,260
I personally don't think about it
all the time, but it's hard not to,

364
00:20:40,260 --> 00:20:43,260
or especially when you're fresh
off the accident to think like, Oh,

365
00:20:43,260 --> 00:20:48,160
if that didn't happen. Um, and also
I think especially with the, um,

366
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,200
the Minnesota iteration, like the
last four tracks on the album,

367
00:20:51,310 --> 00:20:56,040
I interviewed a lot of, um, um,
participants with vision impairments. Um,

368
00:20:56,460 --> 00:20:59,360
and like one of the
questions with darkness, um,

369
00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:03,000
and I think that was super interesting.
Some of the answers I received, um,

370
00:21:03,070 --> 00:21:07,080
even some of them were like, and darkness
is still teeth twirled, the color,

371
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,240
it's not completely dark, you know? And,

372
00:21:09,340 --> 00:21:11,960
and a lot of the darkness
doesn't scare me in a way,

373
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:16,680
especially for blind people. And um,
just very, very interesting for me.

374
00:21:18,090 --> 00:21:21,520
Uh, it's, it's one of those
albums too that I'm like, Oh,

375
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,440
I need to listen to that. There's
so many pieces of what's happening.

376
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,080
I've listened to the album, but as
you're talking about it, I'm like, Oh,

377
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,200
I should go back and re-listen
to so many of these things. I.

378
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:33,033
Quickly kinda.

379
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:38,200
<Laugh>. Yeah. The, um, I, I'm curious
like from a musician standpoint,

380
00:21:38,910 --> 00:21:42,080
what, what that process
was like. Like did,

381
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,240
did you set out from the beginning
of this, and my apologies,

382
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:46,840
you may have answered
this question already,

383
00:21:47,010 --> 00:21:52,000
knowing that you were going to assemble
all these pieces of interviews into,

384
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,800
or did you walk into it sort of with
an openness, not sure where they,

385
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:56,633
things would land?

386
00:21:57,190 --> 00:22:00,840
Yeah, I think I wasn't totally sure
cause I'd never done a project like this.

387
00:22:00,910 --> 00:22:05,040
I had been longing to make my work
more communally engaged in a way or

388
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,800
highlighting other viewpoints
rather than just mine,

389
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,240
but was struggling I think for a
while to find a way to do that really

390
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,760
authentically and almost
like ethically in a way too,

391
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:18,000
or not override it with my like, artistic
stamp in a way mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

392
00:22:18,780 --> 00:22:20,960
And so at the beginning I remember,

393
00:22:21,130 --> 00:22:24,680
or I knew I was in this fellowship in DC
so I knew this festival was coming up,

394
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,360
so I was like, let me just
start doing the interviews.

395
00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:29,840
Like I have the questions, I'll
record it. And first I was like,

396
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:31,000
let me just get the interviews done.

397
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,240
I'll think about the next stage or
how I go about. And I guess I just,

398
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,960
I think I had this inclination that I
just started editing them down to the

399
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,840
highlights for each interview. Um,

400
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:44,160
putting them in a temporal order from
that and then adding my music underneath.

401
00:22:44,330 --> 00:22:45,840
Um, but it was definitely,

402
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,360
and it was interesting last year
I did the Minnesota iteration, um,

403
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:52,960
or wrote that and it's definitely the
most challenging music I think I've

404
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:54,760
written in a way, or, or like, yeah,

405
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,320
challenging to write just cuz I don't
wanna override their opinions too much and

406
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:04,000
I'm trying to give a, you
know, like ambient intuitive
musical feeling in a way,

407
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,160
but also make the music interesting and
not just like a drone or not something

408
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,240
that doesn't develop, um
mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

409
00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:12,600
I'm usually pretty happy with the results
in the end. But I think during it,

410
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,360
especially last year I was like, Oh,
why did I do this to myself again?

411
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,640
<laugh> just cause it's
so different. And I also,

412
00:23:17,670 --> 00:23:21,600
I guess I wrote most of the
music and logic like without apo,

413
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:22,920
which is just very,

414
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:26,400
I usually write everything
down like notation wise or
I'm so comfortable working

415
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,360
that way, um, which is probably why it
was good for me to do that process. But,

416
00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:30,850
um.

417
00:23:30,850 --> 00:23:35,640
Oh, that's interesting. <laugh>
I just like, like I'm in a,

418
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,720
like a world with my crave process.
Yeah, yeah. Where for some.

419
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:40,880
Reason doing things.

420
00:23:41,030 --> 00:23:45,840
Yeah. But I, but I kind
of am not, I haven't done
anything for a, a while and I,

421
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,280
and I'm realizing like, oh, I, I need to
regroup. Like, I'm realizing like, oh,

422
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,600
this, I need a different
process. So it's like, I,

423
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:54,760
it's really interesting to hear,

424
00:23:54,970 --> 00:23:59,240
to hear about yours and that you've
changed a bit in that you're not notating

425
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,960
things. So did you start like,

426
00:24:03,710 --> 00:24:06,960
I paused because I'm like, Oh, am I
getting too <laugh>? This is too much,

427
00:24:07,450 --> 00:24:10,360
Is is too much for the listeners
to hear these questions,

428
00:24:10,500 --> 00:24:15,400
but I think maybe it's worth,
worth talking about. Like
did you start using the,

429
00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:17,000
the clips, the um,

430
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,640
choose like the audio clips you wanted
first and assemble them in an order you

431
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,560
liked and then start applying,
adding the music to that?

432
00:24:24,570 --> 00:24:27,160
Or was there a different
process than that?

433
00:24:27,470 --> 00:24:30,880
Yeah, definitely. And I say too, I'm
glad someone's interested in the process.

434
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:31,350
<Laugh>.

435
00:24:31,350 --> 00:24:34,080
Good composer, when you're
working alone, you're like, Oh,

436
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:35,520
it's just me and my crazy mind. But.

437
00:24:35,650 --> 00:24:39,800
Oh yeah. And always wondering like, is
this, is this going what I'm doing it?

438
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:40,240
Yeah.

439
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,120
Yeah, exactly. You just feel like you're
making it up as you go. But um, yeah,

440
00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:47,920
so I would, yeah, I would edit it down
to the highlights for each interview.

441
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,840
And I guess just to add quickly
too, I have on my website for who,

442
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:52,680
whoever's interested,

443
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,280
but I uploaded all the full interviews
and full transcripts of interviews

444
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,960
conducted just cuz I feel like my
editing was obviously very biased and

445
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:00,490
subjected.

446
00:25:00,490 --> 00:25:04,520
So I did wanna open it up just the have
it as an option if anyone's interested.

447
00:25:04,540 --> 00:25:08,480
But, um, but yeah, but then I would
have the highlights for each section,

448
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,840
like access and then, um,

449
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,400
put it in a temporal order to like one
I was usually striving for contrast

450
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,360
between voices, like a female voice
versus male voice or something.

451
00:25:19,370 --> 00:25:23,640
Or to not have it, like all male voices
and peers to have some variety. Mm-hmm.

452
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,240
<affirmative>. And then also, um,

453
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,200
sometimes the answers I feel like really
flowed into one another if they're

454
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,320
talking about similar things
or the opposite. Like,

455
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,040
I like to often put answers that kind
of contradict each other next to each

456
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,000
other. Um, if it made sense just to um,

457
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,080
hopefully show the diversity and really
like plurality of the disabled or

458
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,480
disability community. Um,

459
00:25:43,660 --> 00:25:48,320
cuz sometimes I feel like people
think disabled people have a, um,

460
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,040
very like single minded view
of say, access or care or cure.

461
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,640
And just to really show that there's
so many different viewpoints out there.

462
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,640
It's very individualistic in a way. Um,
yeah. So it's kind of how, and then,

463
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:00,960
sorry, get to get back to your question.

464
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,120
I then I would add the music underneath.

465
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:06,480
Like first it's just midi
like kind of sketches. Um,

466
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:07,880
and then depending on the music,

467
00:26:07,910 --> 00:26:10,640
I would sometimes actually
make a rough score for,

468
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:15,560
to record it on my organ and voice and
then add processing and so forth. Mm.

469
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,360
And then send it to my amazing engineer
Michael into, to make it sound good.

470
00:26:20,170 --> 00:26:22,200
Oh, that's great to have an engineer too.

471
00:26:22,350 --> 00:26:23,183
Yeah. Yeah. He.

472
00:26:23,630 --> 00:26:26,800
Yeah. The funny thing,
listening to the album one,

473
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:28,920
I was listening to it for the
first time. I running around,

474
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,040
I teach in the afternoons and
I go from place to place. Um,

475
00:26:32,140 --> 00:26:35,160
and I was listening like, Oh, that's
interesting. Is she using an accordion?

476
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,920
And then I was suddenly like, No,
of course not. It's the organ,

477
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,200
it's the organ that you
use. Um, but yeah, it's,

478
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,400
it's really interesting to hear
that for people who are listening,

479
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,520
it may not know your work
very well yet. Um, the,

480
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,840
well can you describe this court organ
that you, that you play and it's, is it,

481
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,520
it's, well it's now that you've described
your compositional project process,

482
00:26:56,990 --> 00:26:59,640
it's not your main
instrument but it's a very,

483
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,640
the one that you use quite frequently.

484
00:27:02,270 --> 00:27:04,360
Yeah, definitely. It's like a, um,

485
00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:08,360
I use specifically a Magnus brand
electric vintage toy organ. Um,

486
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:11,280
most of them are from the
sixties and seventies. Um,

487
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,960
I discovered them on
eBay about 10 years ago.

488
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,680
And I always joke it was kind of
my ticket to Brooklyn, if you will.

489
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,640
Cause it was huge vintage outta tune
this weird instrument that I initially

490
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,560
really saw as a toy or an accessory.

491
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,960
I didn't think it was like
significant enough to do, um,

492
00:27:28,030 --> 00:27:30,280
a major solo practice on it. Um,

493
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,160
but then once I started adding electronics
and playing around with it more,

494
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,320
I realized that it was almost
made for my body, if you will. Um,

495
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,560
cuz it has these cord buttons on the
left hand side and a keyboard part on the

496
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:43,720
right hand side. Um,

497
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,800
so it feels very natural for me to
perform on with my disability. Um,

498
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:52,120
especially in my left hand, I don't have
much dexterity. And those cord buttons,

499
00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:54,760
all you have to do is
like push them in or Yeah,

500
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,240
push them in or push them out
in a way. Um, actually, sorry,

501
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,960
pushing from both different
sides or something. But, um,

502
00:28:01,210 --> 00:28:05,560
it feels very natural for my left hand
and is featured a lot in my worst works,

503
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,680
especially that I perform and record
on. Um, and that eventually added my,

504
00:28:09,730 --> 00:28:11,000
my voice and so forth.

505
00:28:11,430 --> 00:28:15,120
I don't know if you remember I had one
of those when I was a kid in, in the,

506
00:28:15,730 --> 00:28:17,840
in the actual seventies. Um,

507
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,360
but it's one of those things that's
really interesting just about my, um,

508
00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:25,880
experience of your work because when
I was a kid I wanted a piano and I was

509
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,680
like, Ugh, this terrible thing. It
sounds awful. Especially as I got older,

510
00:28:29,750 --> 00:28:33,320
I thought of it as this
disgusting roast thing.

511
00:28:33,740 --> 00:28:37,760
But it's really nice to like be like,
no, that it's an instrument and you,

512
00:28:37,790 --> 00:28:40,160
it's yeah, beautiful
the way that you use it.

513
00:28:40,260 --> 00:28:44,840
The instrumentation on the album we have
the organ mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um,

514
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,840
and your voice, which sounds like it's
been layered quite a bit in places.

515
00:28:50,410 --> 00:28:53,600
Is there what any other instruments
going on? Are you using other synths?

516
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:55,080
Anything else within that?

517
00:28:55,590 --> 00:28:57,360
Yeah, just, um, my usual,

518
00:28:57,710 --> 00:29:02,080
I export midi from SEIUs
usually, or, or sorry,

519
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,560
this one kind of varied from sometimes
the toy organ midi or midi voices from

520
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,720
logic, um, virtual
instruments or from SEIUs.

521
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,640
It kind of varied and usually I kind of
like combine those with the live sounds.

522
00:29:14,890 --> 00:29:18,480
Um, cause I think, I don't know,
it's just the sound I like in a way.

523
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,000
Or I like the like half electronic
feeling, like non-human feeling in a way.

524
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,360
And yeah, it can be very
precise with rhythm. Um, some,

525
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:29,160
I think not a lot of tracks have this,

526
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,760
but like the one control is a little
more rhythmic and that involves like,

527
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,960
hitting on my organ or like
samples from that as well.

528
00:29:36,230 --> 00:29:39,880
Yeah. Um, so it's so
cool. I love hearing your,

529
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,840
your process and also that part when you,

530
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:47,440
I love that you mentioned working on your
own and as a composer because there's

531
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:48,880
still Yeah. <laugh>, I,

532
00:29:48,910 --> 00:29:53,040
I have that experience a lot and I think
of the first time I performed any of my

533
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,760
work in front of anyone and this moment
like a couple days before that I was

534
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,720
like, no. Like I hadn't played any
of it for anybody. Yeah. I was like,

535
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,640
is this just like, what if
this is like really shit?

536
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:10,120
Like what if this is terrible? And
there was no one to tell me like, Stop,

537
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:11,120
don't do it.

538
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,560
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. No,
it's an interesting process.
Cause at least for myself,

539
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,160
you know, I compose a mid
so much and like yeah,

540
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,800
sometimes if you listen to like a mix,

541
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,000
a master version of one of your
pieces sounds amazing, you know,

542
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,840
and then you go to compose and midi,

543
00:30:24,890 --> 00:30:28,560
it really sounds bad even if it's the
most brilliant thing ever, you know? Yeah.

544
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,800
Something that sounds bad. And midi
will sound really good live or,

545
00:30:32,260 --> 00:30:35,040
and so for me, I try to like,
it's easier said than done,

546
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,280
but I try to just help tell myself to
keep going or especially like with this

547
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:39,520
project,

548
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,160
once I started processing the sounds
a little more like getting some live

549
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,080
recording and it started to
pick shape more I think. But,

550
00:30:46,140 --> 00:30:49,560
but it's hard in the composing aspect
cause for me it's like I don't wanna start

551
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,320
recording until I'm really sure on the
rhythm and everything or I just like to

552
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,080
be as sufficient as possible. But.

553
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,320
Um, Do you record all the stuff at home?

554
00:30:58,250 --> 00:31:01,200
Uh, yeah. With my SM 58 <laugh>, I think.

555
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,720
So. <laugh>, Oh wait,
SM 58. Oh, it's a mic.

556
00:31:05,470 --> 00:31:06,800
Like dynamic. Yeah.

557
00:31:06,910 --> 00:31:10,400
Yeah. I these moments like wait, SM
58, I know what that is. Oh yeah, yeah.

558
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,160
SM microphone. Um,

559
00:31:12,470 --> 00:31:17,040
I wanted to talk a little bit about the
album itself and how you've worked to

560
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,440
make it accessible. Um, and there
we, when I thought of that question,

561
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:21,920
he didn't even,

562
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,560
hadn't even realized that you had put
all of the interviews up with, uh,

563
00:31:26,620 --> 00:31:31,440
transcripts. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Um, it's,

564
00:31:31,510 --> 00:31:35,720
it's just so interesting to
think of making music accessible

565
00:31:35,910 --> 00:31:37,960
mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um,
because it's uh, you know,

566
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,440
it's one of those things especially
as um, a non-disabled person mm-hmm.

567
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,120
<affirmative> that mm-hmm <affirmative>.
I only recently been like, Holy shit,

568
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,240
there's a lot that I should have been
doing with my podcast and with these

569
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,080
various things. Um, and
when we're working in audio,

570
00:31:51,190 --> 00:31:56,000
it's embarrassingly not something that
I have thought of before of like, Oh,

571
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,880
I need to make this accessible to
people who can't hear. Yeah. Um,

572
00:31:58,910 --> 00:32:01,320
what is that like? It maybe,

573
00:32:01,350 --> 00:32:04,880
Well let me let you answer
instead of over describing.

574
00:32:05,170 --> 00:32:07,760
Oh no. Yeah. So when the project Yeah.

575
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,160
Was envisioned as that installation
and I was really fortunate to,

576
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,320
I have like kind of a project
curator with it named Sandy Guttman,

577
00:32:14,660 --> 00:32:18,000
who at the time she was working at
the Hirsch Horn Museum in DC um,

578
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,840
and now she's at University of
Illinois Chicago and she is just,

579
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,360
has been such a great resource
throughout the trajectory of this pro um,

580
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:25,780
project.

581
00:32:25,780 --> 00:32:29,520
And in the beginning we started talking
about like we knew we wanted a video

582
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,040
element and I was starting to work more
and more with captioning in my videos.

583
00:32:33,540 --> 00:32:37,600
And then she had the idea for like
the sole visual output to just be the

584
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:38,040
captions,

585
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,440
like with the question on the top and
their interviews answers running through

586
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,000
texts at the bottom. Um,

587
00:32:44,060 --> 00:32:48,880
and I really love that cuz often
accessibility facets, um, just in,

588
00:32:49,050 --> 00:32:53,000
in general with artistic context like
captioning, sign language interpretation,

589
00:32:53,250 --> 00:32:53,600
um,

590
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:58,200
audio description and so forth are kind
of tacked on at the end of the artistic

591
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,560
process mm-hmm. <affirmative>
right before presentation.

592
00:33:00,580 --> 00:33:05,520
And so I feel like they're generally
viewed or heard as not very, you know,

593
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:06,920
aesthetically pleasing in a way,

594
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,160
which sometimes is preferred for some
users too. I'm not saying that's,

595
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:11,640
there's anything wrong with that. Um,

596
00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:15,440
but I always love the challenge of trying
to artistically integrate it so it's

597
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,280
really a crucial part of the artwork or
if you took it away it would seem like

598
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:20,600
something's missing. Um,

599
00:33:20,810 --> 00:33:24,920
so I really like this idea
with this project or to have
those videos and just be

600
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,920
that the sole visual output and especially
to leave the middle of the video

601
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,560
frame just totally black
to hopefully up to the,

602
00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:34,640
the audience member's imagination. Um,

603
00:33:34,710 --> 00:33:39,520
I would add to the ideal format
would to be ha I would to have, um,

604
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,640
would be to have sign language
interpretations for all the videos.

605
00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:44,640
I did explore that,

606
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,840
but it was a little bit cost prohibitive
just about the work involved. But, um,

607
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:50,720
hopefully one day I'll be able to do.

608
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:55,280
That. Your descriptive
description of the videos kind of

609
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,720
presented a perspective that
I hadn't realized yet. And,

610
00:33:59,980 --> 00:34:03,320
and I dunno if this is what you
intended, but the thought of, you know,

611
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:08,280
like you mentioned captions often are
just tacked on and just like, oh yeah,

612
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,560
here's this. And it's interesting that in,

613
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,160
in your work and in these
videos it's quite the opposite.

614
00:34:14,230 --> 00:34:17,560
That's the captions
and Oh yeah, we didn't,

615
00:34:18,010 --> 00:34:20,840
we didn't do anything with this
middle part. It's black. Yeah.

616
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,480
Like this is about about
the making it about the

617
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:26,880
accessibility in a way.

618
00:34:27,230 --> 00:34:29,200
Yeah, definitely. And
I will point out too,

619
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,840
there's so many other disabled artists
like exploring this as well or like

620
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,720
creative use of captioning. Like
I've seen some Kim, um, Lazard, um,

621
00:34:37,870 --> 00:34:41,400
Liza Sylvester, I could go on or
I'm definitely not the only one. Um,

622
00:34:41,550 --> 00:34:45,520
that I just, again, I love that challenge
and it's also interesting to me too,

623
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,680
like, um, when I start first
started working with captioning,

624
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,600
I had a video collaborator who like
really didn't want them in I think. Um,

625
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,120
which I understand cuz I think when I
first started getting disability stuff

626
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,160
too, like we're just
not used to it in a way.

627
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,880
And it made me start
thinking about how like,

628
00:35:00,950 --> 00:35:05,560
I think we're so conditioned in society
to view accessibility facets or hear

629
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,680
them as not like, again, aesthetically
please, like as not part of the artwork.

630
00:35:09,930 --> 00:35:13,640
Um, and I've even had comments with
these videos since it's only text,

631
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:15,600
like sometimes people will
say, where's the visual?

632
00:35:16,170 --> 00:35:20,120
Or you should put a visual in the middle
of the video frame. Um, and I just,

633
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:24,080
I just find it interesting in a
way, um, like what that, you know,

634
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:24,913
the result of that.

635
00:35:25,350 --> 00:35:30,240
It's interesting the way it makes
me think of like surtitles in opera,

636
00:35:30,630 --> 00:35:33,000
like in that setting it's like,

637
00:35:33,050 --> 00:35:35,960
oh we have cert like it in an opera.

638
00:35:35,970 --> 00:35:39,160
We treat it as like,
like something special.

639
00:35:39,770 --> 00:35:40,603
Oh yeah.

640
00:35:41,570 --> 00:35:43,040
Um, may is that,

641
00:35:44,250 --> 00:35:47,240
am I trying to put ableism
where it isn't? You know,

642
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:52,120
it just feels like because it's like
this special tradition of course

643
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:52,940
we're doing this, uh,

644
00:35:52,940 --> 00:35:57,880
but if it was something to make something
more accessible to people, like, uh,

645
00:35:58,070 --> 00:35:59,320
I don't know if we do that. Yeah.

646
00:35:59,950 --> 00:36:03,160
That's interesting. I'd have
to look that up more cuz um,

647
00:36:03,790 --> 00:36:06,120
I feel like I read an article
or two about how like,

648
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,720
opera is the most primed art form, or
at least in music to have disability,

649
00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:14,240
aesthetics, this tradition
of subtitling, um,

650
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,360
which is essentially captioning,
you know, in a way. Um.

651
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:18,170
Yeah.

652
00:36:18,170 --> 00:36:20,320
So I don't know. I'd have
to think about it more.

653
00:36:20,470 --> 00:36:22,600
Yeah, I think I will
also think about it more.

654
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:23,790
<Laugh>.

655
00:36:23,790 --> 00:36:26,040
Well, we should wrap up this
part of our conversation.

656
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,280
It's always great to talk to
you and always very like, um,

657
00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:31,760
whatever that thing I was trying to
describe the whole time we were talking

658
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:32,440
<laugh>. Oh.

659
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:33,800
Oh, no, thank you. Thanks so much.

660
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,600
Thanks. And, um, your website
is molly joyce.com. Um,

661
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,600
the album is on New Amsterdam records.

662
00:36:41,420 --> 00:36:44,560
And is your website the
best place to go to?

663
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,880
Like what I'm gonna say, I
think it's the best place to go.

664
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,880
Your website is great by the way,
and it's so, it's so comprehensive.

665
00:36:53,330 --> 00:36:57,080
Is there anywhere else people should
go to make sure they're on top of all

666
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:57,913
things, Molly?

667
00:36:58,250 --> 00:37:01,560
Um, yeah, I think the website
is the best resource. Thank you.

668
00:37:01,930 --> 00:37:06,160
Perfect. All right, well let's
listen to weakness from Molly Joyce.

669
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:17,760
That's so loaded.

670
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:18,913
<Laugh>.

671
00:37:20,310 --> 00:37:24,520
Yeah, it's not a word I I think
about that much and I wonder why.

672
00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:33,200
I think weakness is one of those
words that I have trouble defining

673
00:37:33,970 --> 00:37:38,040
insofar as it is often defined for me.

674
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,800
And actually most people find weaknesses
defined for them by somebody outside

675
00:37:41,820 --> 00:37:43,640
and they ends up becoming internalized.

676
00:37:44,390 --> 00:37:45,080
Some.

677
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,640
Disabled people are weak some of
the time, but so is everybody else.

678
00:37:49,670 --> 00:37:53,800
I can find it hard to admit when
I'm, when I'm, when I'm feeling weak,

679
00:37:54,020 --> 00:37:58,840
the openness there is also
an openness to potential

680
00:37:58,840 --> 00:37:59,673
hurt.

681
00:38:00,380 --> 00:38:04,120
The default way of,

682
00:38:04,370 --> 00:38:06,400
of being and existing in the world.

683
00:38:07,030 --> 00:38:11,160
I feel a lot of like weakness and
fragility in my body and that feels really

684
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,360
connected to telling those to the world.

685
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,440
And I interact with people who don't
have that experience of their body,

686
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,600
but I often feel like that is
kind of a mis that they're,

687
00:38:22,630 --> 00:38:23,840
that they're living in.

688
00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:28,720
Internalizing what other
people think I'm able to do.

689
00:38:29,510 --> 00:38:34,280
I don't know how many times a
day, a week, a month, a year,

690
00:38:34,590 --> 00:38:39,520
people say like, You're such an
inspiration for doing blah blah.

691
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,720
And I'm like, I'm such an inspiration
for being on the sidewalk.

692
00:38:42,510 --> 00:38:43,150
Like.

693
00:38:43,150 --> 00:38:47,520
That's how about I'm an
inspiration because I

694
00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:52,760
persevered through an
educational track and went on

695
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,720
to do X, Y, and Z and build this
professional of career life.

696
00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:56,920
Why isn't that inspirational?

697
00:38:59,950 --> 00:39:02,040
I believe weakness is a
lack of understanding.

698
00:39:06,390 --> 00:39:08,440
I just wish is superpower.

699
00:39:12,170 --> 00:39:16,000
It does scary, ugly

700
00:39:17,670 --> 00:39:22,160
over aboves of, uh, you know, just

701
00:39:23,790 --> 00:39:28,040
a weakness, you know,

702
00:39:28,470 --> 00:39:32,960
really understand yourself.
And I think that's,

703
00:39:33,070 --> 00:39:37,560
that <affirmative> a
source of power as well.

704
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:42,720
Everybody has weaknesses.

705
00:39:43,500 --> 00:39:44,333
And.

706
00:39:45,550 --> 00:39:47,600
Most of us don't like to admit to them.

707
00:39:50,870 --> 00:39:52,800
When I first started losing my eyesight,

708
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,840
obviously my vision impairment
was a massive weakness.

709
00:39:57,860 --> 00:39:59,720
And, um, you know,

710
00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:04,680
that can certainly consume you
with regard to every aspect of

711
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,080
your life, whether it's, you know, um,

712
00:40:07,750 --> 00:40:11,400
preventing you from doing
things professionally,

713
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,000
whether it's preventing you
from doing things socially,

714
00:40:14,290 --> 00:40:18,840
whether it's preventing you from
doing things personally. Um,

715
00:40:20,780 --> 00:40:25,120
and if you allow that to basically,

716
00:40:27,050 --> 00:40:29,000
um, consume your entire life,

717
00:40:29,670 --> 00:40:33,600
then you end up in that dark hole or pit.

718
00:40:34,300 --> 00:40:37,360
And uh, that's where, you know,

719
00:40:37,430 --> 00:40:39,600
a lot of us have been there.

720
00:40:40,140 --> 00:40:44,240
And I'll admit that I certainly
have been in that dark, dark hole,

721
00:40:44,970 --> 00:40:47,360
um, a few times myself during my.

722
00:41:02,180 --> 00:41:05,230
From Molly Joyce's
latest album perspective.

723
00:41:05,340 --> 00:41:09,510
That was the track entitled
Weakness. Thank you so much, Molly,

724
00:41:09,530 --> 00:41:12,790
for joining me on the podcast today.
As always, if you're a patron,

725
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:18,150
go by patreon.com/michael Herron and
you can get a bonus podcast interview

726
00:41:18,150 --> 00:41:22,270
with Molly and myself. Uh, you'll
get an email about that too when it,

727
00:41:22,270 --> 00:41:23,830
when it publishes. So, uh,

728
00:41:23,830 --> 00:41:26,390
thanks so much for listening
and I'll see you next week.

729
00:41:26,620 --> 00:41:30,830
I got a run of great interviews coming,
so stay tuned. If you're not subscribed,

730
00:41:31,110 --> 00:41:33,430
subscribe already. I think
they call it following now,

731
00:41:33,490 --> 00:41:36,190
now I'm just saying things.
Okay, we're we're done. Goodbye.