Hello, and welcome to Mikey Podd podcast, episode 353 for
October 31st, 2022. Happy Halloween.
Today's guest is Cat Lover Martina Myo. I mean,
she's also a prolific Pulitzer Prize winning playwright,
who that's a lot of Pease in a robe,
prolific Pulitzer Prize winning playwright whose play another p Cost
of Living just happens to be on Broadway. But we're all here for the Cat chat,
right? I'm your host, Michael Herron. I'm a composer, pianist,
electronic musician, storyteller,
and perhaps a bit dormant activist based in New York City. On this podcast,
I have conversations with fellow creators who use their creativity to change the
world. I've been sending this podcast to your ears for well over 17 years.
If you like what you hear,
subscribe using the colorful buttons in the sidebar and footer@mikeypodd.com.
Or just search Mikey Podd in your favorite podcast directory.
If you'd like to know more about me, stop by my website at Michael Herron. Uh,
you can find me on Twitter, Twitter,
Michael Herron at Michael Herron and all my other social media's turned off
right now. We've, I've gone on and on about that enough. So yeah,
welcome to the show.
I really wanna get to the interview and some music that I have to share with you
too. Really great music from future guests. Um,
so I'm not doing my usual check in.
There's not really anything to report anyway. Um,
so let's go right to the part where I thank my subscribers on Patreon for
powering this podcast. I have a lot of plosives today. Uh,
these are people who subscribe for $5 or more a month and get special perks,
like tons of free downloads of my music and zines and bonus podcasts.
There are over 70 of them that you'll have immediate access to when you
subscribe, including this week's bonus episode,
which features an extended conversation with today's guest, Martina Myo,
where we will be talking about cats. We really are gonna talk about cats in the,
uh, bonus podcast.
Did you figure out that we're not only talking about cats in our
conversation on this podcast, Um,
and in the bonus we're gonna be also talking about her surprising distaste for
writing, which I was surprised to find out about,
but also could really relate to. So, um,
that'll be up on Patreon in a couple of days. patreon.com/michael Herron.
I'm very aware of my PS right now. Um,
can I give a shout out to the pop filter that I'm, Why does pop filter have a p?
Anyway, I have some music for you today. Also,
you may remember from back in July of 2020,
I talked to a brilliant composer by the name, name of Molly Joyce. Um,
you can always go back and listen to that episode. Uh,
her work focuses on disability as a creative source.
She has a new album that came out just last week called Perspective,
and she's gonna be a guest on the podcast in a couple of weeks, uh,
to talk about the album. Um, but I wanna share a track with you from it today.
Um, she, the premise of this album is that she interviewed,
I believe it was 47 different people, um,
about these various words on, um,
that are track names of the tracks on the album. And, um, you'll hear,
hear the responses, uh, to this track. It's called Connection. And, um,
she wove the responses together with her, uh, original music.
She's a really intriguing composer of new music
and ah, I love it, .
So it felt like a great fit for today's show. And, um,
I just really want you to listen to this album,
so hopefully you're in a place where you could really just sit and listen to,
uh, the words you're about here, the music you're about here. Um,
and get ready for our conversation today with playwright Martina My
Oak. This is Connection by Molly Joyce.
What is connection for you?
.
And the connections among people are impossible for you to understand because
a shimmer distorts the interactions,
much like a shattered mirror provides no coherent image,
so you glean only pieces of scattered reflections.
Eye contact, and more than just looking at someone's iris,
but actually looking into their pupils when you speak to them.
Connecting with friends and family
connection.
Like we all I know talking to face to face.
I live at this intersection of autism or neuro
divergence and poetry.
I've been trying to think about why these things feel so wedded
to each other in particular ways.
And I think connection is a big part of it.
And I think it's also what scares people about both of them.
The neuro divergent people in my life,
they really cut through all the bullshit right away,
and they want to talk about the real stuff.
And it's so refreshing.
I think, honestly, coming out to the pandemic, I,
I feel so disconnected with so many things. I think I'm struggling to,
to answer that question because I don't really know if I feel connected to much
of anything right now.
Having inside connections as well as like outside connections.
Really feeling like you're safe
and seen and heard, and that you can just be your, like,
complete full self.
I think this idea of like being seen and,
and like, understood.
How is the world created for you?
And if it's not created for you,
what are you going to do with the support of family, friends,
community, resources?
What are you gonna do to make that a more of a
living reality for you?
There is a level of trust when collaborating with another disabled person
because of that sort of, you know, that experience of,
you know, enduring ableism.
If you struggling to live,
connection is the slightest thing in your mind,
you connected to try to have stability.
Connection is why I'm a storyteller. Uh, connection is the bridge.
Acting with my friends
to me includes both my literal
physical dimension,
but also the empty spaces that exist within me.
And a component that includes both the emptiness that I carry
and the, the more overt structure I carry.
Joining me now on the podcast is Martina Myo,
who is a playwright, a Pulitzer Prize winner, all kinds of great stuff.
And now the guest on Wiki Fad, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you for having me.
I feel like I'm behind the times. I saw cost of Living this past weekend,
kind of not knowing what I was gonna see. Um,
and I didn't know anything about your work.
And now that I'm investigating it and very excited, I'm like, Oh, this, like,
I'm behind . So there's so much you've done,
but because Cost of Living is what I've seen,
I'd love to talk to you about it a little bit,
and I read a little bit about your history. Um, so there's so much to discuss.
Um.
Yeah, I thank you for seeing it. Also. Isn't that the best,
like when you just don't, don't know anything about a show? Can you walk in?
Yeah, I love it. And my sister is seeing it, uh, next week. Oh, okay.
Maybe the week after. And she's doing the same thing and she won't let mention,
she won't let me say anything about it or anything about you. She's like,
I don't know anything. I just wanna go in. Which.
Is great. It's, it's so rare too. Like that's the best.
Yeah. So for people who may,
who are listening who may not get the chance to see the play anytime soon
because they're not in New York City, is there a, uh, what am I trying,
like an elevator pitch about what the show? That sounds terrible,
but you know what I.
Mean. Oh no. Gosh, Yeah. I've sent 'em so bad at these. Uh, so, so like,
let's see, to play about loneliness, to play about caregiving,
it's a play about our interconnectedness. The plot of it, I guess,
is that there's, we're following two sets of two sets of couples.
One of them is, um, Eddie and Annie. And, um,
Eddie is an unemployed, recently unemployed truck driver. Uh,
and Annie is his estranged wife.
And the two of them come back together when Annie, uh,
is in a car accident, which leaps her quadriplegic. And, um,
Eddie begins being her caregiver and it's the, we follow how they sort of come,
come back together in a way.
And the other couple is John and Jess.
And John is a PhD graduate student in political science
at Princeton, um, who has cerebral palsy. And he hires Jess,
who is a first generation immigrant who just graduated undergrad at
Princeton and is dealing with, um, a lot of financial instability, uh,
to be, she hires her to be his caregiver. And it's also,
we follow how they're challenged by and also brought,
brought together by their differences. Um, and, uh, it's a little,
it's a little sexy. It's a little, it's a little funny.
It's a little ghosty . Uh, yeah, that was a really long,
So we basically got to the 96 floor with that elevator pitch.
That was a little too long. .
No,
but it was great because I feel like one of the things about talking to you on
the podcast I was thinking about was like a lot of people won't,
won't get to see the play. Like they, you know,
people who listen all over the place. Um, so I'm glad that you,
that we got to the 96 floor for that . I really love working,
this is kind of what I do on the podcast,
is talk to people who use their work to as activism or as like raising social
awareness and that type of thing. And the thing that can be really challenging,
this, this type of thing, as I'm sure you know,
is trying to be inclusive or address some of the,
it even feels corny to say address the issues that you do with this play.
It can come off as very like corny and forced and, um,
you know, all of those things that, that sort of undermine your message. Um,
and you've done it so not that you've so.
Like, Oh my God.
And this is a fine example of doing exactly that . No,
but I mean, like what you've done it,
you're telling a story and all of these things happen to be a part of the story.
Um, well,
is it a challenge or was it a challenge for you to sort of get to a place and
like some of those topics you wanted to cover,
keep them from being cliched or.
I mean, that's exactly what what you're saying is like,
they happen to be like the,
there are two disabled characters play by two disabled actors in
the cast. There also happen to be two first gen, um, performers that,
that are also first gen. One is an immigrant,
one is a one is a first gen character in the, the play. And I, um,
I tend to, I I'm an immigrant. I was born in Poland, um,
and, um, uh, grew up also when I, when I came to America,
I grew up in a largely multicultural immigrant neighborhood in,
in working class neighborhood in North Jersey. And, um, I,
when I first began writing plays,
I was writing plays about my friends and family, um, who, you know,
happened to not have much money and maybe was English was their second language
and all these things that when I started writing, uh,
and sharing it with people from the outside, they were saying, Oh,
you are you writing about immigrants? Why are you writing about low income, um,
people, uh, um, you're,
you're writing about economic instability and how it relates to, to women,
et cetera. And I was like, I guess that is true, Yes.
But I was writing my friends and myself and my family once I was aware
that this is how it's gonna be seen as these are stories of people from the
outside because they're, they're the inside for me, ,
this is my experience, but for the American theater,
they are stories of people from the outside or marginalized communities.
And so I, um,
always wanna make sure I'm being as authentic as possible
to that experience while also inviting people in for
whom that isn't their experience. Um, uh, so that somebody,
somebody who's who I grew up with who would see my play wouldn't think I was
pandering , like, Oh yeah, yeah. It's like how we,
it's like that's our life. Yeah.
But also somebody who's not from that will feel invited into a different,
maybe a different experience that maybe they'll find is actually not that far
off from their experience. It's just sort of a different, different form. So I,
I never consider my plays issue plays, though. They're,
a lot of the characters are dealing with, um,
obstacles that have been created by policy that is just inherent in their
lives. I mean, the last play I wrote was, uh, called Sanctuary City, and it's a,
it was about, um,
a friendship between two undocumented teenagers. And so it's not a,
it's not a play quote about immigration.
Cause I don't know how to do that more than, I dunno,
like how do you write a play about women? You know, it's such a,
there's so many this many various versions of those experiences. Um, um,
so it was never like, um, I must write about this identity or this experience,
it just as, or this, um, uh, Id, Yeah,
identity really is, is is more, cause the experience is part of it,
but like the,
the political is inherent in the personal for these characters,
um, and these, and these worlds. So, so hopefully, I mean, I,
my my politics might be pretty apparent , which are like,
don't be dix to people and and will survive equally as best,
equally as possible. Uh, but it's never,
I'm never trying to make a polemic.
I'm not trying to make something that feels like it's eating your vegetables.
I'm just, I'm telling people, I'm telling stories of the humans that I know and,
and am, uh, and trying to bring us kind of, kind of connect us,
connect the people in the audience to the people on stage and, um,
make it in an inviting experience, Not a, not a vegetable,
not an eat your vegetables experience. .
That's a great way to put it. But, you know, I think that like, it's,
it's the, um,
when we include stories or tell stories about more different types of people,
that's just what happens, Right. It it, in a way, it sounds like, I mean,
you're writing from your experience,
but also make an effort to include people who don't always, uh,
very rarely show up on mm-hmm.
on a stage just by telling the stories. It seems like you're,
you're hitting it, right? Like.
Well, in this particular instance, I think especially with, um, I, you know,
I'm not disabled. I was a caregiver for, I worked as a caregiver for what,
two years. Um,
so I pulled from that experience when I was writing the play, um,
as well as just, um, you know, people that I,
a lot of the characters are composites of people that I know. Um, but there,
I had written in the play the, the notes of the play, Please,
Please Cast Disabled Actors. And, um,
I didn't realize what a big deal that actually would be because there,
I didn't experience with the productions in New York and the productions that I
was involved with. But there had been theaters that, um,
reached out after the play was published. And it goes around for, um,
regionally with, you know, sort of with without me at that point, um,
theaters would reach out and ask me, do I really mean it? Wow. Uh,
and I was like, Yes, I do . Um, do you need help finding, finding,
um, actors? Here's a list. Um,
here's a list of other theater com theater communities and companies that, um,
are devoted to, to, um,
telling disabled stories like Family and Deaf West and tbt. Um,
and some of those theaters did reach out and some just kind of, it was crickets.
Like they had no intention actually of changing the way that they,
a lot, a lot of people have typically cast disabled roles, which is, um,
not with non-disabled actors. Uh, so it's like, uh,
I guess that itself is a political act. Um, it's,
it shouldn't be, It seems it doesn't, it seems like so obvious,
why would you not wanna cast disabled actors to portray disabled characters?
But it, um, it's been sort of surprising to me how, how, um,
the response sometimes it's, I, I, it's, it's like, there shouldn't be response,
I guess in my, in my, in my thinking like, Oh, sure, just cast disabled actors.
Um, but there, that ist always the, the way that it's gone.
I, I can't remember where I read this. It was,
it was an interview with a woman who plays, uh, Ani.
Oh, Katie Sullivan. Yeah.
Yeah. And she, she was observing,
I can't remember she said she heard it or the,
the people surprised that she was disabled that they Yeah.
That she wasn't an actor who was Yeah, yeah. Like, they were like, Oh,
someone said something like, Oh,
it must have been really hard for her to sit in that chair with her legs tucked
underneath. Yes. Like,
it was just outside of the realm of possibility that that could possibly be a
disabled actor. Yeah. Really interesting.
Yeah. And there's also, this is, um, the other,
the other disabled actor in the cast, spr Mosca, um,
has cerebral palsies play and characterize more who has more intense cerebral
palsy than he has. Um, so he doesn't require,
the actor doesn't require a wheelchair, then they come out on stage.
People don't think that he's disabled. He's, he's heard some really interesting,
interesting and horrible things. Somebody, somebody came up to him after the,
after a show when we did the show Off Broadway. And because he doesn't use a, a,
a wheelchair, um, people might not like you, can he, you know,
he says this, he says this openly, so I, I I will share it, but he's like,
You can, you can, you can tell when he walks like that he is disabled.
Um, but because there's never a wheelchair, and it's like not, his,
his disability is not as pronounced as, um, as the characters.
People. Somebody at one point came to him and after the show and was like,
Oh my God, thank God you're not actually disabled. And like,
how horrible is that to hear? Like, Oh, thank God, thank God. He's like,
Actually, actually am . But, um, but the judgment of like,
Oh God, thank God, thank God, um, when that's his lived experience.
So it's been, it's been interest. It's, yeah. And then people who are,
who I've heard say like, Oh, they're not, oh, but they,
they're not actually disabled or what, uh, or have been, or quote unquote,
are playing, playing. Um, yeah,
there's such a rarity of seeing those actors on stage, I guess that, that,
that is, uh, it's been the response.
,
hopefully some of those people that ask these questions or make these incorrect
observations, we're able to,
to take something away from having said something like that. Uh,
we can only hope, I guess. We're.
All learning. We're all learning, I guess.
Yeah. And that's totally true, like, about a lot of things. Um,
it, it makes me think of times in the past that I look back now,
I've learned just about various, you know, things, um,
the moments that I just look back like, Oh,
I wish I could like find that person again.
That I said that microaggression to like five years ago. Like, I didn't,
you know, when you learn like, Oh my God, I said that to someone. Yeah.
And I guess it's, a lot of times it's actually,
it's an act of trying to connect. Like,
that person was probably trying to connect with the, with Greg, the actor,
um, and didn't realize that, that that's maybe, maybe a hurt,
hurtful thing to hear. Um, and, uh,
Greg and other actors I've talked to mentioned that there's, um,
you gotta, there's this reliance of humor to, to, um, there's,
there's a, there's a need to use humor to kind of make other people comfortable.
Um, I do the same thing in the play. Like there's, I, I've,
I've learned with my plays, I need to make the audience laugh within the,
I used to say within the first minute,
and now I think it's like the first 30 seconds, maybe 15 seconds mm-hmm.
so that they know it's so, I want them to laugh.
It's okay to laugh. I wanna invite them into this, this,
the experience and the story. And, um, they might,
they might be tense because of the subject matter, um, not just for this play,
but my other, my other plays as well. Yeah.
I was, that was one of the things that I really appreciated.
And there's some like dark like, uh,
humor in the play, which I always appreciate. But, um, I can feel that too,
as a, as a point, especially when they're disabled characters.
I'm sure that if you don't really set it up in the beginning of the play, like,
this is a thing, we're gonna laugh today too, , you.
Know? Yeah. It's every, I mean, the other,
like Iron Bound is about a woman in like, incredible,
like financial instability, and there's of domestic violence in the, like,
talks of domestic violence and there's, there's like,
there's heavy things in the play. And I think, um,
if you don't let them, let the audience know early that like, it's,
it's okay then, then there feels like there's a, there's a feeling of like, Oh,
we're not allowed to, we're not allowed to laugh at this. And it's not,
you never,
the audience should never feel like they're laughing at a character usually.
I have noticed that, uh,
that like the more marginalized character and whatever scene will tend to tend
to lead the humor. Like they'll be the ones that are in charge of the jokes,
and so you're laughing with them. They're the ones,
they have the agency over the humor,
and so you're never laughing at that character.
And hopefully that lets everybody, you know, feel more, feel more comfortable.
And like, we're all here together in our, in our awkwardness,
in our shared tension and with respect.
Uh, I hadn't noticed that, but now that I'm thinking back to the play, I'm like,
Oh, yeah, that is, that is how that was handled.
There was a scene that I especially loved, um,
Jess's helping John take a shower. Mm-hmm. ,
it connected a lovely memory with my mom when she was sick and
passed away, um, that I was helping take care of her. And it was,
that scene was so beautiful,
and it really captures that like,
sort of intimate exchange of care, like,
of caring for, for someone else. Um, was that,
I'm silly question. I think ,
how much did you draw on your experience as a caregiver, uh, for that scene?
And was it important to you to sort of portray that?
Yeah. And thank you for the kind, the kind of words. Yeah. Thank you. I, I,
so the, the job that I, one of the jobs I,
I had was working for a man was cerebral palsy. Um, I was,
I worked with two men and, um, that was,
that was how I showered him. That was like how I prepared him for the day.
And so I, I wrote it into the script really specifically. Um,
and then when we, when we did the first production,
I just showed them what I did. I, I worked with, it was always Greg was,
was always in that role from the,
from the moment we had a first production till, till now on Broadway.
And I just showed them like how I, how I maneuvered.
I wanted to show how natural it is,
like how connected those two bodies are. Like it's almost a dance that they're,
that they're doing of, um, they've, at that point in the play,
they've been working together for I think three or a few months,
but at that point, so they've established a kind of rhythm with each other,
with their bodies, um, such that they can have conversations, you know, flu,
pretty fluidly. Um, and, um, and I wanted to,
I think it's just beautiful. I watched that scene and I'm like, it's a scene of,
of somebody caring for another person's, another for another person.
And it's also just so routine, um, and, um,
such a, so natural. So I wanted to,
and I also wanted to show how much work it is. Mm-hmm. , um,
like this, it's such a physical,
it's just such a physical job that this other person is doing. But that, and,
and that like, um, that, that really both of them are doing because they're,
they're kind of working in tandem as much as they, as they as they can. Um,
so I wanted to invite an audience into what that is.
I wanted them to see it all. I didn't wanna just open, you know,
lights up and you see, um, um, uh,
he's already in the shower chair, whatever. But like, I wanted them,
I wanted everyone to see that full act. And so throughout the whole scene,
he's showered, Um, he's brought into the shower, he showered,
he's brought back into this wheelchair. He's, he's, um, dressed.
His hair is done, and he is like ready for the day and the whole scene.
So I was like, yeah, I wanted to show, show people that's what the work is.
I didn't realize that that was part of what I love so much about that scene,
but the, the feeling that they had been doing this and they just had this,
this dance, Um, that was a great scene. Yeah.
There was a clip that I saw today that talks where you're talking about,
and it's very short. Like it doesn't tell the whole story.
I'm so curious about more of this, um, where you,
your agent was telling you that you won the Puli tour.
.
Like, I, I mean, I partly love this type of story because it,
it wasn't something until I moved to New York and,
and I met people who had been on Broadway or who had like, success, um,
in the theater. And then next, a month later they're like, Okay,
I'm back on unemployment now because I don't have a job.
I didn't really realize that. So it's really this story,
um, it's important to me for that kind of way.
So whatever part of that you feel like.
Oh, yeah, yeah. I, I actually love this story too. Cause I'm like, this is,
it's just so exactly what you're saying. You're like, Yep.
And one day on Broadway, and the next, like, like, we,
you open the show and the next day I'm like,
gotta do my laundry and my Ikea bags, take it downstairs. Like, it was like,
these like sharp contrasts of, of what your life is like. You know,
one day you're at this, at this go opening, and then you're like,
gotta do my laundry in the basement. Um, . But, uh, yeah,
for the day of the, I was, um,
I was supposed to be at jury duty that day. Um, I, it was like flash floods.
I went down downtown. I, I was all the way, all the way uptown.
So I went downtown. I wasn't chosen, like, thank God,
I came back to my apartment and I was about to start doing my taxes because they
would do the next day. So like, great. Like, it's very, very late. Like, so I,
so I was opening up TurboTax, like ready to go,
and I get a call around three o'clock from my agent, um,
who's screaming at me that I won the Pulitzer.
And I was so mad at him because I thought he was fucking with
me. Arthurs lying to me Uhhuh. Um, and uh, uh,
it was nine minutes and 48 seconds of me being like,
How dare you? Um, it was also April. So I was like, Oh,
this is like a delayed April Fools joke. Like, how cool. Yeah. And, um,
he's just laughing at me for almost 10 minutes and was like, Well,
why don't you, why don't you hang up?
And I think you will find that you actually indeed have won the poll for
. The thing is like, why the phone,
why was 10 minutes was I was trying to Google it,
but apparently I didn't know this. Like,
apparently it's a live stream announcement that that goes out.
So it was recorded, so there was no, like,
there was no language on the internet, which means it's not real that like that.
I had one that pulled Sarah, so I was like, Was gonna watch this video. Um,
so I hung up and I saw that, um, I had 20, 20 texts,
like 12 or 20 texts, and the first one was from Steven Allen GIAs being saying,
Congratulations. I was like, Oh, well, I guess it's true .
And I called my agent back to apologize. Uh.
Uh, I'm sure he appreciated that the whole thing out.
Laugh at me the whole.
Time. Yeah. Well, you know, we should wrap up this part of our conversation.
Okay. Um, sad to say, um,
for those of you who are listening and would like to hear more,
there'll be a little bonus podcast conversation where we might be talking about
cats. Cats, I don't.
Know. Best content. Yeah.
All cats all the.
Time. All cats All the time.
Yeah. Um, so thanks for joining me on this podcast.
Thank you for having.
Me. And, um, your, your website is martina myo.com. Mm-hmm. .
Um, anywhere else I should tell people to go to learn more about your work or?
I'm on, I'm on all the socials. I don't really use Twitter that much,
but I'm on, I'm on, uh, it's all my, all my name. M A r t y N A m h A O K,
Um, Instagram I've been using more most lately, but yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Cool. All right. Thanks for talking to me today.
Thank you.
That was the title track from Sophia Saba Vatex in our softening.
Uh, Sophia is going to be on the podcast soon.
I'm very excited for this conversation as well. Uh,
that piano has a history and it inspired the album, the,
the piano that that was recorded, that piece come on.
So I'm excited about so many things that are coming up.
I'm excited about this thing that just happened, this interview with, uh,
Martina Myo. A lot of things. A lot of things. Thanks so much for listening.
If you're a patron, uh, stop by patreon.com/michael Herron in a couple of days,
and there will be an extended cat conversation with Martina.
And if you're not yet a patron,
feel free to go on over there and sign up for five bucks.
You get access to all that cool stuff I talked about in the beginning of the
show. Um, I'm really grateful to you for listening. Tell a friend,
I've taken quite a pause from social media right now and whatever with
the new owner of Twitter. Maybe I'll be leaving there too. I don't know.
I'm just on a personal level,
I'm much happier not being as engaged on social media as I used to be.
And that is the end of this podcast. Thanks so much for listening, and, uh,
let me hear from you. Please, I'd love to hear from you.
I hope you enjoyed the interview. See you next time.