1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:02,360 Hello and welcome to Mikey Podd podcast, 2 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:06,200 episode 352 for October 19th, 2022. 3 00:00:06,250 --> 00:00:10,960 Today's guest is interdisciplinary sound artist and composer Brian Barnetti. 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,200 We'll be talking about his mind blowing. I wrote this in my notes, 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,680 but it literally is a mind blowing album. Uh, it's titled Words and Silences, 6 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:20,760 which is a sonic portrait. 7 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:25,320 This is how it's described on Brian's website of the Trappist Monk and writer 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,200 Thomas Merton brings together archival recordings, 9 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:33,080 Merton made alone in his Kentucky Hermitage in 1967. Mind you, 10 00:00:33,480 --> 00:00:37,200 along with newly composed music by Brian Barnetti. Uh, 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,120 it's a really cool album, 12 00:00:39,140 --> 00:00:43,640 and it's a great conversation I'm gonna have with Brian Achu here momentarily. 13 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,920 But first, I should tell you who I am in case you're new here. I'm your host, 14 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,160 Michael Herron. I'm a composer of pianist, electronic musician, storyteller, 15 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:55,080 and perhaps somewhat dormant activist based in New York City. On this podcast, 16 00:00:55,430 --> 00:00:59,600 I have conversations with fellow creators who use their creativity to change the 17 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,040 world. I've been sending this podcast to your ears for 17 years. 18 00:01:03,170 --> 00:01:04,160 If you like what you hear, 19 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,280 subscribe using the colorful buttons in the sidebar and footer@mikeypodd.com. 20 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,080 Or just search Mikey Podd in your favorite podcast directory. 21 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,560 If you'd like to know more about me, stop by my website@michaelherron.com. 22 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,640 Hit me up on Twitter only as at Michael Herron because I shut everything else 23 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,080 down. Or you can email me@mikeypoddgmail.com. 24 00:01:22,740 --> 00:01:26,840 Not a ton to check in on. In my personal world, lately, 25 00:01:27,180 --> 00:01:30,640 I'm doing a lot of work. I put a big video up on Patreon, uh, 26 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:32,720 for those of you who are patrons, if you didn't check that out, 27 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,840 go back and check it out. I've been doing a lot of behind the scenes, 28 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,080 like kind of housekeeping, gathering my files, 29 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,560 sort of getting my creative house in order. Um, 30 00:01:42,610 --> 00:01:46,560 it feels like I'm clearing some space for some new work and maybe some new 31 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:48,200 creativity creative process. 32 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,320 You'll hear me talking with Brian on this a little bit. Um, and, uh, 33 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:53,800 that's really it. So this, 34 00:01:53,890 --> 00:01:57,520 it would be very boring for me to tell you about how I've found a great new way 35 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:58,360 to, uh, 36 00:01:58,390 --> 00:02:03,080 categorize my folders of archival videos of things 37 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,200 I've done. So that already was a little too much. Uh, 38 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,480 so that's what my world has been lately. A lot of teaching and, um, 39 00:02:11,510 --> 00:02:15,600 a lot of cleaning up files and things, and that's great. 40 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,160 Isn't that fun? Um, I do wanna mention the NYC Podcaster Expo, 41 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,960 which was a great time two weeks ago, two weekends ago. And, um, yeah, 42 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,080 it was really nice to meet some fellow podcasters in person. Um, 43 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,480 there were some cool speakers. Um, 44 00:02:31,910 --> 00:02:36,720 I spoke with my friend Sebastian about pod fading and, um, 45 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:38,720 yeah, it was pretty cool. I just wanna mention it. 46 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,400 That's really all I wanna say about it. And, um, yeah, that's it. , 47 00:02:42,570 --> 00:02:47,280 we should get into the interview, but I of course need to thank my podcast, my, 48 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,080 uh, subscribers on Patreon for powering this podcast. 49 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:54,400 These are people who subscribe for $5 or more a month and get special perks, 50 00:02:54,430 --> 00:02:58,080 tons of free downloads of my music and zines bonus podcasts. 51 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,320 There are nearly 80 of them. Maybe it's over 80 now. 52 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,360 I keep estimating that it's 80 and I don't, I know it's not 80. Uh, 53 00:03:05,380 --> 00:03:08,600 I'm saying 80. How many times did I just say 80? Uh, 54 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,880 you'll have immediate access to all these files when you, when you subscribe, 55 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,240 including this week's bonus episode, 56 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,240 which will feature an extended conversation with Brian Barnetti. 57 00:03:17,300 --> 00:03:21,240 And we'll be talking about and listening to a not yet released recording. 58 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,320 And I think maybe sharing this in a slightly different way, Um, 59 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,160 I'm gonna experiment with some things because podcasting has been really fun 60 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,560 lately. So I wanna see what it's like to do something different. So, um, yeah, 61 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,760 that's it. We're gonna listen to a track from Brian's new album, 62 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,360 Words and Silences. I wanna tell you, just, just to make sure, 63 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,360 cause I kind of said it quickly in the beginning of the show. Um, 64 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:48,160 the album is based off of and includes recordings of Thomas Merton 65 00:03:48,310 --> 00:03:52,320 from a, a retreat he was on in 1967 in Tennessee. 66 00:03:53,010 --> 00:03:55,880 So you're gonna hear Thomas Merton's voice at the beginning of this piece. 67 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,480 So that's what's going on, . And this, 68 00:03:58,910 --> 00:04:03,000 you'll hear it's a really fascinating project, and it's really interesting the, 69 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,480 the kind of questions and observations that, 70 00:04:06,830 --> 00:04:11,800 that Thomas Merton's observations and questions raised in. It's, 71 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,520 it's really interesting. But this piece is called Sound of an Unpled Ren. 72 00:04:16,900 --> 00:04:21,440 And, uh, this is from Brian Barnett's album, Words and Silences. 73 00:04:24,130 --> 00:04:28,180 Okay, now I hope we can go on recording like this. I think it will stay down. 74 00:04:28,180 --> 00:04:29,100 Good. Let's go. 75 00:04:42,530 --> 00:04:43,363 Reader. 76 00:04:43,620 --> 00:04:45,260 Sound of an un perplexed. 77 00:04:46,550 --> 00:04:47,860 To reader. 78 00:04:52,710 --> 00:04:54,100 No comment necessary. 79 00:05:18,810 --> 00:05:23,620 It's a cardinal metal lark, 80 00:05:27,380 --> 00:05:31,140 cardinal fly catcher, 81 00:05:50,180 --> 00:05:54,220 voice of the tape. Uh, comment on the silence of the Hermitage. 82 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:01,240 The silence commented on also by birds. 83 00:06:02,620 --> 00:06:05,520 Now some experimental reading, 84 00:06:06,590 --> 00:06:08,320 a piece of Samuel Beckett 85 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,400 abstract, like a painting, two dimensional, 86 00:06:18,180 --> 00:06:21,160 The colors, It is flat, 87 00:06:24,100 --> 00:06:28,360 but fascinating. Something like clay, Paul Clay, 88 00:07:02,030 --> 00:07:06,540 It has a strange effect, like a message of spies is 89 00:07:09,370 --> 00:07:13,500 definitely affected by the media 90 00:07:14,290 --> 00:07:18,380 that we use. The end of the piece 91 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:22,490 sounds almost metaphysical, 92 00:07:24,740 --> 00:07:28,450 an interesting piece of writing. I wonder how it sounds, 93 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:32,170 pops. I'll play back in a minute. 94 00:08:18,340 --> 00:08:22,030 Sounds very good. Now, what it brings out is the, 95 00:08:22,730 --> 00:08:26,110 the monotony of the language and of the syntax 96 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,950 evading complicated statements, 97 00:08:32,180 --> 00:08:35,910 simply, uh, 98 00:08:35,910 --> 00:08:38,710 stringing together nouns and adjectives and so on, 99 00:08:39,110 --> 00:08:43,990 seems to emphasize the metaphysical silence behind 100 00:08:44,770 --> 00:08:48,590 the person, the persons that he is talking about. 101 00:08:49,850 --> 00:08:50,830 And in the end, 102 00:08:51,730 --> 00:08:56,000 the silence is emphasized as being metaphysical. 103 00:08:58,020 --> 00:09:01,870 This is a piece which does manifest the silence. 104 00:09:03,930 --> 00:09:06,510 The perplexity is very subdued in it, 105 00:09:07,330 --> 00:09:10,270 and this is the right kind of perplexity, 106 00:09:11,250 --> 00:09:15,200 not a an emphatic perplexity, 107 00:09:15,940 --> 00:09:17,480 but a subdued and deep 108 00:09:19,340 --> 00:09:21,940 awareness that everything is perplexed. 109 00:09:24,230 --> 00:09:26,210 And that in this, 110 00:09:28,460 --> 00:09:33,130 Getting back to a concrete elemental awareness of the things 111 00:09:34,060 --> 00:09:38,890 without anything that we have added to them without any comment 112 00:09:38,940 --> 00:09:43,000 of our own, seeing them in their bareness, 113 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,840 their way of merging into each other, 114 00:09:49,150 --> 00:09:50,390 their flatness, 115 00:09:51,930 --> 00:09:55,060 taking away the perspective that we have put into everything, 116 00:09:55,690 --> 00:09:57,580 seeing them again as flat, 117 00:09:59,130 --> 00:10:03,620 allowing them to make their own different perspective 118 00:10:05,070 --> 00:10:07,740 of something underneath which we have not presupposed, 119 00:10:08,140 --> 00:10:12,420 which we have not put there. Honest Beckett. 120 00:10:17,330 --> 00:10:22,020 That was Brian Hardy's sound of the un perplexed run from his latest album, 121 00:10:22,020 --> 00:10:26,700 Words and Silences. And Brian is here right now, right now, 122 00:10:27,060 --> 00:10:30,780 to talk to us. Uh, thanks so much for joining me today. 123 00:10:31,150 --> 00:10:32,580 Uh, thank you so much for having me. 124 00:10:33,110 --> 00:10:33,460 Um, 125 00:10:33,460 --> 00:10:38,300 there's so much that's kind of like encased in 126 00:10:38,300 --> 00:10:40,020 in what you've done here. Um, 127 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,100 can you give a just a general rundown about what, 128 00:10:44,330 --> 00:10:46,300 what the project is, what the album is? 129 00:10:47,010 --> 00:10:49,900 Sure. Um, it's called Words and Silences, 130 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,100 and I like to think of it as a music portrait or a sonic portrait 131 00:10:54,670 --> 00:10:58,060 of Thomas Merton, who was, uh, 132 00:10:58,060 --> 00:11:01,740 20th century monk writer and activist. Um, 133 00:11:02,270 --> 00:11:05,300 he died in 1968, and, um, 134 00:11:05,300 --> 00:11:09,860 this album contains recordings that he made, um, a year earlier, 135 00:11:10,310 --> 00:11:13,780 um, in the solitude of his hermitage. Uh, 136 00:11:13,780 --> 00:11:16,220 and the recordings are pretty remarkable. 137 00:11:16,220 --> 00:11:19,540 They are intimate and, um, 138 00:11:20,090 --> 00:11:23,660 very open, and I just love the way the, 139 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:28,660 the candor of his voice and the way that he speaks about a variety of subjects, 140 00:11:28,660 --> 00:11:33,140 including, uh, Samuel Beckett and Michelle Fuco and Sufi mystics, 141 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,580 and the racial protests that were going on in Louisville at the time. So, 142 00:11:38,030 --> 00:11:40,700 uh, all of those things are really attractive to me. 143 00:11:40,700 --> 00:11:44,340 And then I have my own ensemble and we, um, 144 00:11:44,530 --> 00:11:47,660 make music to go along with the recordings. 145 00:11:47,870 --> 00:11:51,140 It all weaves together so beautifully. 146 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,920 And there's a chatbook that a accompanies the album, which, um, 147 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,760 talks about your experience discovering his experience. 148 00:11:59,990 --> 00:12:03,280 Like you talk a lot in the chatbook about how the, 149 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,560 the role of the tape recorder that he was speaking into, 150 00:12:06,830 --> 00:12:10,880 sort of changes depending on what he's doing. 151 00:12:11,300 --> 00:12:12,920 Can you talk about that a little bit? 152 00:12:12,950 --> 00:12:17,400 Sure. I mean, I, I mean, he, Merton immediately to my mind, 153 00:12:18,010 --> 00:12:22,760 uh, used the tape recorder as a, uh, as a contemplative tool, um, 154 00:12:24,130 --> 00:12:28,800 as a way to like, you know, both dive deeply into himself, 155 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,200 but also to connect with the world. Um, 156 00:12:32,380 --> 00:12:35,680 and he had been doing this already with, obviously with his writing, 157 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:40,680 but with poetry as well, and then experimental photography and, and painting. 158 00:12:41,210 --> 00:12:45,720 Um, and so it just seemed like regardless of what medium he was using, 159 00:12:46,410 --> 00:12:50,720 um, he had that edge to it where he was discovering the medium itself, um, 160 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:55,480 and also figuring out how to use it, um, as a contemplative tool. 161 00:12:55,850 --> 00:12:57,200 So that's, that's one thing. 162 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,320 And then I also started to notice that it was only like a couple days into it 163 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,360 where he started to interrogate the tape recorder, um, 164 00:13:05,610 --> 00:13:09,840 as a medium and what that means, um, 165 00:13:10,050 --> 00:13:15,000 as a, as a person in solitude recording himself, you know, and then, 166 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,360 and then listening back to himself, um, with the recorder being, you know, 167 00:13:19,510 --> 00:13:24,280 a a silent listener. And then, um, reflecting back at, uh, 168 00:13:24,590 --> 00:13:29,240 a distorted mirror image of himself. I, I immediately thought of, um, 169 00:13:29,610 --> 00:13:33,120 uh, Samuel Beckett's play Craps last tape. I don't know if you, 170 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:34,200 if you know that one. 171 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:35,353 . I don't. 172 00:13:35,770 --> 00:13:40,720 Uh, but basically it's, um, you know, it's about an old man, 173 00:13:41,130 --> 00:13:45,400 uh, who has been making tape recordings of himself throughout the years. And, 174 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,560 um, it's late in his life, and he, he, um, listens back to the recordings, 175 00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:52,320 of course, it's like with Samuel Beckett humor, 176 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,800 where he's like eating lots of bananas in the background. So, but this is not, 177 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:01,560 not quite the same there. But, um, uh, I just loved that, um, 178 00:14:01,630 --> 00:14:05,840 that way of interrogating what is tape and what can tape reveal. 179 00:14:06,460 --> 00:14:07,600 And to my mind, 180 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,080 after listening to these recordings so many times over and over again, 181 00:14:11,750 --> 00:14:16,480 I think what the tape started to reveal was Merton's own uncertainty. 182 00:14:17,210 --> 00:14:21,960 Um, you know, what I like to think of as an uncertain self, um, 183 00:14:22,740 --> 00:14:26,640 and his own vulnerability and openness, um, 184 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,480 which I think is, um, actually, 185 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,400 it's just remarkable to to hear on a recording, 186 00:14:32,580 --> 00:14:36,760 and it's different hearing it than from reading it. Um, 187 00:14:37,130 --> 00:14:40,640 there's the old adage that, um, uh, 188 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:45,040 speech conceals and tape reveals uhhuh and, uh, or, 189 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,440 or recording or voice or recording reveals, and you can, 190 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:53,440 you can hear in his voice all kinds of extra information and, um, 191 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:58,040 curiosity and uncertainty that I think, um, 192 00:14:58,230 --> 00:15:02,200 I don't know. I find a lot of, uh, solace in that. I, I like that. 193 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:06,720 I prefer that to, um, being so self-assured, 194 00:15:07,050 --> 00:15:08,840 um, that you seem to have all the answers. 195 00:15:09,470 --> 00:15:10,480 Yeah, that, 196 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,920 and that was one of the things that started to really grab me about the piece in 197 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,800 a, in a track we're gonna listen to in a little bit. Well, I would love to, 198 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:19,800 this is also a great time to talk about the first track, 199 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,840 which we really haven't like discussed much yet. Um, 200 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,600 which is the sound of the Unpled Ren. That's what we started the interview with. 201 00:15:28,060 --> 00:15:30,160 And that in general, 202 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:35,120 sort of comes off as a little bit more of an everyday sort of recording and just 203 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,400 his observations, unless of course there's more there that I'm, 204 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:39,560 that I'm missing . 205 00:15:42,030 --> 00:15:47,000 Well, I, uh, so I, it's, you know, in 2017, I, I went, 206 00:15:47,450 --> 00:15:47,800 um, 207 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:52,720 to the Thomas Merton archives in Louisville to start to listen to these 208 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,320 recordings. And I had been, I had been trying to, you know, 209 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,640 I'd been listening to all kinds of public recordings that he made, 210 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:03,040 and they were all very, um, faced, uh, openly towards the public, 211 00:16:03,460 --> 00:16:07,400 and they felt, um, I mean, they were, they're fine. Um, 212 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,320 but it didn't interest me very much. 213 00:16:09,550 --> 00:16:12,840 I just couldn't find what I was looking for. Uh, 214 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,000 and then the archivist there handed me, um, you know, 215 00:16:16,310 --> 00:16:19,440 a group of recordings that, you know, that I ended up using, 216 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,680 which he made in Solitude, um, of the Hermitage. 217 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,400 And I was just so struck at how different they were and how intimate they were. 218 00:16:26,860 --> 00:16:29,200 But yeah, this first track, um, 219 00:16:29,350 --> 00:16:34,160 uses the very first recording that he made in the, in the, uh, Hermitage. 220 00:16:34,540 --> 00:16:38,920 And, you know, I turned the track on, and he just sort of breathlessly, 221 00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:40,840 belted out, you know, um, 222 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:45,680 really fast without any pauses or punctuation, you know, Okay, let's go, 223 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:50,040 you know, and just right into it. And I just thought, Okay, here we go. 224 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,840 And I just seemed like the perfect way to, to begin. Uh, 225 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,880 and then he went outside and recorded, you know, some of the, uh, 226 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:02,320 floor and fauna around him, and lots of bird sounds. Uh, and then of course, 227 00:17:02,350 --> 00:17:06,920 this is a pattern that I seem to find over and over again where he pays 228 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:11,000 attention to his surroundings and to nature. And then it drives him inward, 229 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,880 and he starts to reveal all kinds of knowledge, you know, uh, 230 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,800 about whatever philosophers or, uh, 231 00:17:18,360 --> 00:17:23,000 religious mystics or something like that. But he's always aware of his, um, 232 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,920 surroundings. So I wanted to ground the album in, in that, too. 233 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,520 I didn't want it just to be some sort of like, philosophical treaty, you know, 234 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:31,760 that like, uh, Burton was doing, 235 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:36,560 but really to pay attention to those sounds of the birds and how the birds 236 00:17:36,670 --> 00:17:40,040 inspired him to think deeply about himself and the world. 237 00:17:40,530 --> 00:17:44,840 Mm. I think one of the things that's really moving to me about the, 238 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,040 your project is, it, it really, 239 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,520 this is one of those moments I ch I'm challenged to put into words, 240 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,600 but I think I can do it, the, the way that, you know, 241 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,560 his exploration and his creativity and his spirituality are 242 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,840 now like inspiring yours. You know, like you, 243 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,800 you've discovered these recordings. And if I understand correctly, 244 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,080 were you on retreat while you were transcribing, 245 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:13,560 you transcribed all these tapes? Is that, am I on board right with that? 246 00:18:13,910 --> 00:18:17,840 Yeah, I mean, I, you can tell that it takes me a long time to do a project. 247 00:18:17,850 --> 00:18:22,480 So this was a couple years later, and I, I was, I was in Vermont, um, 248 00:18:22,490 --> 00:18:27,120 on, uh, an artist, uh, residency called Marble House. Mm-hmm. , um, 249 00:18:27,260 --> 00:18:29,760 and it's amazing. And, 250 00:18:29,820 --> 00:18:34,720 and the music building is set apart and up the road a bit, 251 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:39,680 so it really felt like I could be in solitude as long as I wanted to. Um, 252 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,240 of course then I enjoyed going down and having dinner with everybody and hanging 253 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,840 out. But yeah, during that time, yeah, I was transcribing all of these tapes, 254 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:51,720 and I, I was able to slip into the, that feeling of solitude. 255 00:18:52,060 --> 00:18:56,600 And then again, um, uh, the next year at, um, uh, 256 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:01,120 Log Haven in Tennessee, I had another artist residency, was able to do it again, 257 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:05,400 and that one was really, really quiet and in the wintertime. And, um, 258 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,040 but I was able to, you know, finish recording all the piano parts and like, 259 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,160 do you know, all of that work there. So, um, 260 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,920 it's that connecting with solitude, um, 261 00:19:16,350 --> 00:19:19,840 that I think helped the project along a bit. Yeah, sure. 262 00:19:20,350 --> 00:19:24,080 Yeah. And it's just, it's interesting seeing the, 263 00:19:24,220 --> 00:19:27,760 the thread of contemplation and creativity 264 00:19:28,750 --> 00:19:33,200 that, that he inspired, you know, years ago in the late, late sixties Yeah. 265 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:34,760 1967, it seems. 266 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:35,280 Like. That's right. 267 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,880 Yeah. Yeah. Um, seeing that through line and then where you're like, you know, 268 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:44,080 you're leaving this through line off with having created this project and 269 00:19:44,590 --> 00:19:45,280 with a, 270 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,320 with a string available to someone else to take that same contemplation and in 271 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,200 different direction and creativity. Right. 272 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,600 Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and of course, I mean, I have a family, 273 00:19:55,650 --> 00:20:00,160 so it's a very different, uh, Oh yeah. Different experience. And, um, 274 00:20:00,580 --> 00:20:04,440 but, uh, eventually that moved out into the garage and, you know, 275 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,480 like working there as well and trying to find the solitude and then the pandemic 276 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:12,560 hit. And so that forced another kind of solitude altogether. And, um, 277 00:20:13,450 --> 00:20:17,960 uh, and yet this material seemed to be, you know, 278 00:20:18,850 --> 00:20:22,560 um, a solace I would say, for me at least, to, you know, 279 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,880 to work on it during that time period because it, it, 280 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,800 it offered all of these different ways to embrace, uh, solitude. 281 00:20:29,810 --> 00:20:32,360 So it was a good, a good reminder that way, . 282 00:20:32,390 --> 00:20:36,440 Yeah. Uh, well, let's, let's talk a little bit about, um, 283 00:20:36,860 --> 00:20:41,200 who is this? I, um, I was listening to the album for the Fir Well, I, 284 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,160 the first time I listened to it, I was doing other things. 285 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,880 It was when I first got it, and I was like, Oh, 286 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,320 I'll listen to this while I'm doing something else. And I was, I mentioned in, 287 00:20:49,390 --> 00:20:53,040 before we started recording that, I was like, What, you know, what is this? 288 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,920 Cause I hadn't really read about it, so I had a long subway trip. I, 289 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,640 I'm in Brooklyn, and I was listening to it on the subway, 290 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,280 which was interesting for other reasons. Um, but who is this eye was, 291 00:21:04,710 --> 00:21:07,120 I think in my process of listening to the album, 292 00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:08,920 that was the moment that I was like, Oh, 293 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:13,880 like I was really appreciating and enjoying the album, but that moment in, 294 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,800 who is the si where we really feel a really human 295 00:21:19,130 --> 00:21:22,600 natural expression from Thomas Merton? 296 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:27,360 And then your music's response to that was really powerful. Like, I, 297 00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:29,120 it was something I went back and listened, like, 298 00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:33,320 Did I hear that the way that I did ? Um, yeah. Yeah. 299 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:34,600 It's a beautiful piece. 300 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,640 Is there anything you want to add or talk about that piece before we give it a 301 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:38,470 listen? 302 00:21:38,470 --> 00:21:42,040 Well, that's good. I'm glad that it had that effect on you. Um, yeah, 303 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:43,000 the premise of, 304 00:21:43,010 --> 00:21:48,000 of that particular piece is that Merton is reading a 305 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,800 passage from the Sufi mystic, even Al Arab, and, um, 306 00:21:52,810 --> 00:21:57,680 uh, and then commenting on it, so it, it feels a little dry at first. 307 00:21:57,740 --> 00:21:58,280 And I, 308 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,880 I kept that in there because I just really wanted to hear that passage that he's 309 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,040 using, which is essentially, um, 310 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:09,120 comparing like two sides of the same coin, um, of different things, 311 00:22:09,850 --> 00:22:13,240 uh, are really the, the same thing. And it's all, you know, 312 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,800 whatever the absolute, So it's, it's based in these Sufi, uh, texts or whatever, 313 00:22:18,340 --> 00:22:21,640 but the, the text also asks the question, Who is this? I? 314 00:22:22,100 --> 00:22:25,960 And so Merton keeps, uh, repeating that, um, again, 315 00:22:26,330 --> 00:22:29,600 he starts to comment on his surroundings and the Hermitage, 316 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,120 he's thinking about the, the gas just turning off. Um, 317 00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:36,960 and you can hear the ticking of the clock next to him. Um, 318 00:22:37,460 --> 00:22:39,680 and as he continues to question 319 00:22:41,490 --> 00:22:43,640 or to raise that question, um, 320 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,840 you can hear it like audibly affect him, 321 00:22:47,060 --> 00:22:51,280 and there's like a little bit of a, a warble in his voice. Now, of course, 322 00:22:51,470 --> 00:22:55,800 this is my totally subjective interpretation of the recording. 323 00:22:55,990 --> 00:22:58,840 Yeah. I mean, it's, this is not fact or anything. 324 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,640 This is just how I hear it after listening to it. I mean, 325 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,840 probably a hundred times it seems like, um, just again and again. Um, 326 00:23:06,900 --> 00:23:11,480 but that's the, the feeling that I get is that there's something revealed. 327 00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:15,520 And later on he asks, like, What does the tape reveal? And so to me, 328 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:16,480 this is what it does. 329 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,920 It reveals his own uncertain self and his humanity. 330 00:23:21,610 --> 00:23:25,720 Um, and again, you know, he he had just, um, 331 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,080 fallen in love like, uh, uh, six months earlier with, with, um, 332 00:23:30,210 --> 00:23:33,760 he had, uh, back surgery and he fell in love with his nurse. And I, I, 333 00:23:34,030 --> 00:23:37,560 I think he was sort of questioning, you know, all, you know, 334 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,920 whether he should leave and, and get married or if he should stay. And, um, 335 00:23:42,420 --> 00:23:44,720 you could hear like that, that sadness, 336 00:23:45,270 --> 00:23:49,800 I guess of all of that context, all that stuff that, you know, 337 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:50,960 I've read about, you know, 338 00:23:51,010 --> 00:23:55,600 in his journals or whatever beforehand come out in that one question. 339 00:23:55,970 --> 00:24:00,720 So yeah, it feels, it feels very, um, there's like a lot of, a lot of layers, 340 00:24:00,970 --> 00:24:05,880 um, to unpack with just that one word. And for the music, I just tried to like, 341 00:24:06,260 --> 00:24:09,480 get it out of the way, you know, like try to like, keep it as, 342 00:24:09,530 --> 00:24:14,440 as spare as possible. Um, the music's often pretty ambient. I mean, it's not, 343 00:24:14,740 --> 00:24:18,160 and by that I mean, it's, there's not a lot of chord changes. I mean, 344 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,000 it's kind of like sitting in a particular sonic world for the duration of each 345 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,720 piece. And I think that's on purpose. Well, 346 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,720 it is on purpose because I, I, I want, 347 00:24:28,910 --> 00:24:32,240 I want the music to interact with, um, 348 00:24:32,500 --> 00:24:36,160 and cohabitate with the, with the recordings, but I don't, 349 00:24:36,350 --> 00:24:40,880 I don't want it to be like noodling. Like, you know, when it's, 350 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,200 when it's, uh, when the words are there, I really want it to, to, um, 351 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,320 offer that open space sonic space. Yeah. 352 00:24:49,190 --> 00:24:50,400 That, that, 353 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,880 that's something that I observed about the music and sort of forgot that 354 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,320 I have had observed. But especially in that, 355 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,760 and this is just from my memory of the piece, 356 00:25:00,830 --> 00:25:02,880 I feel like the, 357 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:07,480 the music does a great job in that little spot of just sort of 358 00:25:09,030 --> 00:25:13,480 supporting the moment in a way. Like, it's, it's, it's, 359 00:25:13,870 --> 00:25:17,320 yeah, I think that's the best way I could say it. It feels very, it, 360 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,320 it's there and it really, I don't even know how to put into, 361 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,320 and I think that's what music does it, 362 00:25:23,690 --> 00:25:27,240 it expresses things that we can't find words for. That's. 363 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:27,360 Right. 364 00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:27,960 Yeah. Yeah. 365 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,480 That's the goal. Yeah. For me too, . 366 00:25:30,670 --> 00:25:33,880 Yeah. But it, it felt very much like, sort of like, 367 00:25:35,490 --> 00:25:40,320 uh, how supporting him in the moment, you know, like, 368 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:40,820 yeah. 369 00:25:40,820 --> 00:25:45,800 And also like finding the, um, the cracks and the silences, um mm-hmm. 370 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,960 , um, and, and, um, filling those occasionally, but not always and, 371 00:25:50,980 --> 00:25:54,280 and, and doing it quite subtly or whatever, 372 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,720 just to kinda like punctuate like different, um, 373 00:25:59,070 --> 00:26:02,880 pauses or, um, yeah, to keep it moving. You wanna keep it moving, 374 00:26:03,020 --> 00:26:06,440 but you also wanna, um, yeah. Keep it, uh, 375 00:26:06,730 --> 00:26:11,400 minimal as possible. Yeah. , Yeah, in my mind at least. Yeah, 376 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:12,330 . 377 00:26:12,330 --> 00:26:13,560 Uh, mission accomplished. 378 00:26:14,150 --> 00:26:16,200 Yeah. Not that you seeking I did. 379 00:26:16,570 --> 00:26:17,403 Go ahead. Go ahead. 380 00:26:17,890 --> 00:26:21,680 Oh, no, I was just gonna say, I did just use the word newland. So . 381 00:26:22,350 --> 00:26:26,200 I appreciate that you left off the G and I felt that apostrophe. 382 00:26:26,790 --> 00:26:28,080 Yeah, that's great. Uh. 383 00:26:28,670 --> 00:26:33,200 Well, let's give, let's listen to this track. Um, who is this? I, 384 00:26:33,490 --> 00:26:35,760 uh, from the album Words and Silences. 385 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,330 Sunday morning, April 23rd, 386 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,570 fourth Sunday after Easter, 387 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,010 some notes from a book on even Rrb, 388 00:27:10,350 --> 00:27:11,183 The Sufi 389 00:27:12,650 --> 00:27:17,570 about how the absolute is the cannot be known except as a 390 00:27:17,570 --> 00:27:22,570 synthesis of opposites and how God knows himself in us, 391 00:27:23,590 --> 00:27:28,530 and, uh, recognizes himself speaking to himself in us. 392 00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:32,090 This needs to be louder, I think. 393 00:27:47,030 --> 00:27:47,750 Hey, 394 00:27:47,750 --> 00:27:52,450 Rrb quotes a saying of a mystic of Baghdad and then 395 00:27:52,450 --> 00:27:53,283 explains it. 396 00:27:54,950 --> 00:27:59,810 The inward belies the outward when the latter says I and the outward 397 00:27:59,810 --> 00:28:02,370 belies the inward. When the latter says I, 398 00:28:02,950 --> 00:28:07,610 and this applies to every other pair of opposites. In every case, 399 00:28:07,710 --> 00:28:12,130 the one who says something is one, and yet he is the very same one who hears. 400 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,570 This is based on a phrase said by the prophet and what their own souls tell 401 00:28:17,570 --> 00:28:18,403 them, 402 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,690 indicating clearly that the soul is the speaker and the hearer of what it says. 403 00:28:22,690 --> 00:28:23,530 At the same time, 404 00:28:24,230 --> 00:28:28,930 the knower of what itself has said in all this phenomenon, 405 00:28:29,270 --> 00:28:32,930 the essence itself is one, though it takes on different aspects. 406 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,810 Nobody can just ignore this because everybody is aware of this in himself, 407 00:28:37,820 --> 00:28:40,250 insofar as he is a form of the absolute. 408 00:28:45,010 --> 00:28:49,570 Therefore, this business of speaking and hearing oneself 409 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,610 with a tape recorder can be regarded as an extension of 410 00:28:55,610 --> 00:28:59,250 the coincidence of opposites by which the absolute is present in one 411 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:53,433 to return. 412 00:29:54,380 --> 00:29:58,390 Tobi then the inward belies the outward. 413 00:29:58,390 --> 00:30:01,950 When the latter says I and the outward belies, 414 00:30:01,990 --> 00:30:06,710 belie is the inward when the latter says, I, who is this? 415 00:30:06,780 --> 00:30:10,110 I, I speak, Here I am speaking. 416 00:30:11,130 --> 00:30:15,870 And a moment ago, the birds were singing and the guests just turned off. 417 00:30:16,850 --> 00:30:20,710 Who is this I? Who am I who sit here? 418 00:30:28,060 --> 00:30:29,710 It's very difficult to say, 419 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,430 Because the I who speaks outwardly, 420 00:30:41,770 --> 00:30:43,710 who uses this tape recorder, 421 00:30:44,210 --> 00:30:46,910 who speaks back to itself from a tape recorder, 422 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:49,470 is to some extent an illusion. 423 00:30:50,570 --> 00:30:53,830 And to use a tape recorder is to perpetuate this illusion, 424 00:30:55,180 --> 00:30:58,430 create this elusory identity, and yet it is a real identity. 425 00:30:59,730 --> 00:31:01,150 And inside, within 426 00:31:02,660 --> 00:31:07,460 there is that which has just canceled and denied and negated 427 00:31:08,050 --> 00:31:09,300 this outer identity. 428 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:15,460 And yet the outer identity also calls 429 00:31:15,460 --> 00:31:18,540 into question. Cancels tends to negate the inner identity, 430 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,140 and this produces the state, 431 00:31:21,140 --> 00:31:26,100 which Rrb calls the state of perplexity in 432 00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:30,420 which we are constantly canceling out each other 433 00:31:30,690 --> 00:31:31,900 inward and outward. 434 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:37,100 And this canceling out is the presence of God in this mutual 435 00:31:39,390 --> 00:31:42,030 dialectic between the inner and the outer, 436 00:31:43,090 --> 00:31:44,630 for which there is no union, 437 00:31:44,630 --> 00:31:49,310 except in the absolute who is present and who hears himself 438 00:31:49,660 --> 00:31:53,390 when I speak and praises himself 439 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,470 in this perplexed awareness of an identity, 440 00:31:58,470 --> 00:32:01,630 which I do not know, cannot grasp, 441 00:32:02,340 --> 00:32:03,670 cannot understand, 442 00:32:04,690 --> 00:32:08,710 but must affirm in simple faith and in obedience to him 443 00:32:09,290 --> 00:32:14,230 who leaves me in this perplexity. And it is the best place to live. 444 00:32:14,970 --> 00:32:18,750 The perplexity of this solitude in which 445 00:32:20,010 --> 00:32:24,870 you wonder who it is that looks at this valley and 446 00:32:24,870 --> 00:32:25,703 says, I, 447 00:32:26,410 --> 00:32:30,630 and is aware of seeing all these beings out there, 448 00:32:31,630 --> 00:32:36,430 which are in contrast to the eye, Which seem to deny it, 449 00:32:37,690 --> 00:32:42,360 and which yet affirm and the singing of the birds 450 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,760 makes also the absolute present. 451 00:34:15,530 --> 00:34:19,260 That was, Who is this? I, uh, Brian Horny from his new album, 452 00:34:19,260 --> 00:34:23,140 Words and Silences. Um, Brian is with me here with the album. 453 00:34:23,140 --> 00:34:25,460 One of the things that I think is super interesting, 454 00:34:25,460 --> 00:34:30,020 and I didn't really think about it much until, um, reading the Chatbook too, 455 00:34:30,290 --> 00:34:34,380 this idea of the tape recording capturing. And it, 456 00:34:34,490 --> 00:34:38,180 I think the first track really as a great example of this too, 457 00:34:38,250 --> 00:34:43,020 that it's capturing the words that he's saying at the, 458 00:34:43,020 --> 00:34:47,420 which go back and forth between being sort of presentational like you've noted 459 00:34:47,420 --> 00:34:49,500 in the, uh, in the chatbook. 460 00:34:49,500 --> 00:34:53,940 Like he's has kind of a poet voice happening sometimes and other times. 461 00:34:54,510 --> 00:34:59,060 Um, but it really captures the, the time, like the, 462 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,140 the moment that he was in this retreat. 463 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:08,020 The time and the place too, uh, which I think is really important. Yeah, 464 00:35:08,070 --> 00:35:11,580 we feel the room, we feel the, the birds and the sound, 465 00:35:11,580 --> 00:35:14,980 it takes place in the spring. So like, he's noting all of these different birds, 466 00:35:14,980 --> 00:35:18,140 obviously. Um, but I, I think that, 467 00:35:18,140 --> 00:35:20,620 that that is just as important as anything that the, 468 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,660 the place itself becomes a character in the. 469 00:35:23,660 --> 00:35:26,500 Show, and you've referred to it as sort of a, a, 470 00:35:26,850 --> 00:35:30,140 a one person play in a way, right? 471 00:35:30,140 --> 00:35:34,380 That's what it feels like to me. And that's, I mean, obviously I'm, I'm, again, 472 00:35:34,380 --> 00:35:35,220 it's a subjective, 473 00:35:35,220 --> 00:35:40,080 and so I am editing the words together in a way that feels good 474 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:41,240 to me. Um, 475 00:35:41,420 --> 00:35:45,840 and so I approach the text as if I 476 00:35:46,090 --> 00:35:47,200 am not a playwright, 477 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,880 but I what I imagine a playwright would do and essentially with like a, 478 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,800 like a cut up, uh, technique, um, 479 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,280 but also paying attention to the, 480 00:35:57,700 --> 00:36:01,200 the grain of Thomas Burton's voice and, 481 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,560 and what sounds are there. And like that, that's just as important too. 482 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:10,040 So it's texture place, um, the text itself, um, 483 00:36:10,220 --> 00:36:13,760 and, um, all the sounds around. Yeah. Hmm. 484 00:36:14,340 --> 00:36:18,200 How many hours of tape were there? 485 00:36:19,410 --> 00:36:20,200 Do you, do you. 486 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:25,120 Know? That's a good question. I mean, I, uh, I, I, uh, as a, 487 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:30,120 as a way of moving through them, I transcribed the text, the, the tapes, 488 00:36:30,170 --> 00:36:34,040 um, that I had. Um, I mean, there are, 489 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:38,040 there are hundreds in the, in the, um, in, in the collection and the archive, 490 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,720 but I was really interested in these Hermitage tapes and that those are more 491 00:36:41,720 --> 00:36:43,200 limited. So maybe, um, 492 00:36:43,590 --> 00:36:48,360 I would say 15 tapes or so that each are about an hour, so maybe, you know, 493 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,600 15 to 20 hours or so. Um, but I transcribed a good chunk of those and, 494 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,880 and again, as a way to, uh, 495 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,360 move through the text and edit it, um, 496 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:04,200 cuz it's really hard to remember and search through something that 497 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,560 hasn't been transcribed before. So, um, so that was, that was my way through it. 498 00:37:08,670 --> 00:37:11,520 A long, tedious process, but also really interesting. 499 00:37:11,830 --> 00:37:16,400 I was sort of thinking how easy it would be or easier 500 00:37:16,490 --> 00:37:20,920 to have a computer transcribe the whole thing, you know, and Right. , 501 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,520 but that would've kind of removed your part of the process, right? 502 00:37:25,830 --> 00:37:30,360 Does, Yeah. Yeah. And, and again, you know, listening for, 503 00:37:30,620 --> 00:37:34,400 you know, size or laughter or, um, 504 00:37:34,510 --> 00:37:38,120 coughing or, you know, when he shuts the tape off, 505 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,920 it's always interesting because he is like finishing a thought and then he is 506 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,760 just like, Fine bloom, you know, And you feel, 507 00:37:44,940 --> 00:37:49,080 you feel the tape shutting off. And, and, um, somehow I wanted to like, 508 00:37:49,770 --> 00:37:51,280 um, well, it was already captured, 509 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,320 but I wanted to emphasize those sorts of things. Um, so yeah, 510 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,920 just the text alone wouldn't have done it. And I, 511 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:02,680 I needed all of the other sonic cues for, for good context. 512 00:38:02,990 --> 00:38:06,120 Well, two things about the time of transcribing. 513 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,160 There was at some point during the, um, reading the chat book, when you talk, 514 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,400 we're talking about transcribing it, and I first realized like, Oh, 515 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,840 he transcribe these things. And in a way I was like, Oh, it, 516 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,000 my first thought was like, Oh, you're wasting all that great, uh, 517 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,960 retreat time transcribing these tapes, . But then I realized like, Oh, 518 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:28,760 wait, this is the, that is the project. Like, that's the piece too. 519 00:38:29,510 --> 00:38:34,080 I think, I think my projects are 80% listening, you know, or, 520 00:38:34,170 --> 00:38:38,520 or more. And then, um, when I can't stand it anymore, , 521 00:38:40,790 --> 00:38:44,480 Then I start to, to play with the material. Um, but I really wanna, 522 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,000 I want to find ways to, 523 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,520 to get that material into my mind so that I'm thinking about it all the time. 524 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,880 Or even when I'm, you know, just waking up in the morning or tired at night, 525 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,760 those things are, are popping up in my mind and, and moving around and, 526 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:58,200 and I'm paying attention to that. 527 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:02,160 I'm paying attention to what little glimmers and clues or things that might 528 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,400 speak speak out to me, you know, as I'm, you know, 529 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,880 going through all of this information I do with the music too. Uh, um, 530 00:39:10,150 --> 00:39:12,880 I, for example, um, 531 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,840 other scholars had had figured out all of this music that Merton had listened 532 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,880 to throughout his life, um, and they generously shared that with me. 533 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,440 And so I went through the process of finding the music that I appreciated, 534 00:39:25,460 --> 00:39:29,640 you know, from like early Boogie Woogie pianist and, uh, Mary Lou Williams and, 535 00:39:29,940 --> 00:39:34,280 and so forth, Um, and transcribed that, and then thought about, 536 00:39:34,580 --> 00:39:38,600 you know, what was it like for Merton to listen to these people, you know, 537 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:43,000 growing up or partially in New York and, and listening to, um, 538 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,280 all of these bands play. And then in solitude, 539 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,200 he was like listening to Dylan and, and John Coltrane's ascension. 540 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,200 So it's like really, um, uh, 541 00:39:52,750 --> 00:39:56,600 a wide variety of music. And so I, my, 542 00:39:56,810 --> 00:39:57,960 my process again, 543 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:02,800 just like with the tapes is to transcribe small bits and pieces of the music, 544 00:40:03,370 --> 00:40:03,720 um, 545 00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:07,680 to think those through and see if there's something that I can be inspired by 546 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:12,080 that. And then, I mean, it could be something as much as a meter or a tempo or, 547 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,280 you know, a small phrase or something like that. Um, 548 00:40:15,620 --> 00:40:19,880 and then that for me gives the project a kind of, um, 549 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:24,640 logic to it around Merton's interests and, um, 550 00:40:24,750 --> 00:40:27,040 love for these musics. 551 00:40:27,110 --> 00:40:31,760 Well, so you, you transcribed the music he was listening to at the time. 552 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:33,640 Did I understand that correctly? Some. 553 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,520 Of it, yeah. Not, I mean, little bit. I mean, 554 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,800 I'm not doing the whole thing , let's just be honest too. , 555 00:40:39,860 --> 00:40:43,400 I'm finding like little bits and pieces that I think, Oh wow, that's, 556 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:48,040 that's an interesting chord. Or, um, there's a small phrase, you know, 557 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:52,320 like that kind of stuff. And then, yeah, using that to spin out. Um, 558 00:40:53,030 --> 00:40:55,480 I mean, it's related to, um, 559 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,600 sampling and the long history of musical borrowing mm-hmm. . Um, 560 00:41:00,060 --> 00:41:04,200 but it's sort of stepped back a few, a few layers, um, and, 561 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,600 and not quite as overt because I'm, again, you know, 562 00:41:07,620 --> 00:41:11,200 I'm really thinking about the recordings that being in the, 563 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,440 in the front of the forefront, um, 564 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:18,160 but wanting the music to be inspired by the place and the time. So it's like, 565 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,000 with earlier projects, you know, I was like working in Appalachian, 566 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,920 Ohio around recordings and people that were, you know, 567 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,000 grew up in the 1920s for example. So it's like, Oh, okay, 568 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,360 I'm gonna listen to that music and take, 569 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,080 take little bits from there and then see if I can't spin it out into something 570 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:33,860 new. 571 00:41:33,860 --> 00:41:37,120 Huh. That's really interesting. It's just something that, 572 00:41:37,390 --> 00:41:40,720 that I think about in terms of my own creative process, 573 00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:45,520 which is a little bit kind of being reformed . But, um, yeah, 574 00:41:46,230 --> 00:41:48,480 that, that idea of, you know, 575 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:53,200 those are tasks that I would typically be like, Oh God, I gotta, you know, 576 00:41:54,510 --> 00:41:59,160 I wouldn't really lean into transcribing even a section of a piece of music, 577 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,840 partly cuz I'm really slow at doing that, but, um. 578 00:42:02,010 --> 00:42:03,000 Me too . 579 00:42:03,860 --> 00:42:07,600 But the idea of really letting that be a part of the, 580 00:42:08,170 --> 00:42:12,800 or or remembering or noticing that that's part of creating 581 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,200 something new is sort of, yeah. 582 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:19,840 Really examining and being a part of what 583 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,680 you're drawing from or what has led you to create this thing. 584 00:42:23,990 --> 00:42:27,200 Yeah. Well, it's, it's world building, right? Mm-hmm. , 585 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:31,440 and it's also giving you the space and time to, um, build that world, 586 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:36,440 but also in try to inhabit as much as one can, you know, the subject of your, 587 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,920 of your work. And also, I mean, I do think of material, right? 588 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,720 Like sound material. It's, it's just more interesting for me. 589 00:42:44,090 --> 00:42:48,600 Or maybe it's a, a fault , you know, it's like, rather than, 590 00:42:48,850 --> 00:42:51,520 uh, I don't know, rather than like a scale or, you know, 591 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,400 a set of pitches or something like that. I'm, 592 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,120 I'm just interested in material and how other people have made, 593 00:42:56,270 --> 00:43:00,680 made music and in history. Right. So, and then how do you perform that, 594 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,600 that history? Um, of course it's, you know, it's really complicated, 595 00:43:05,220 --> 00:43:05,760 you know, 596 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,840 and can be problematic along the lines of appropriation and stuff like that. 597 00:43:08,850 --> 00:43:13,200 So it's, you have to do it with a certain kind of, um, respect and, 598 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,320 you know, stewardship too, you know, and, um, 599 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:21,200 to try to figure out what the best, best bet is through all of that stuff. Yeah. 600 00:43:21,390 --> 00:43:23,720 Yeah. That is a, a. 601 00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:25,400 Big question. That's all other conversation. Yeah. 602 00:43:25,460 --> 00:43:29,720 And it's a, it's one that I'm really interested in, but, um, Yeah. 603 00:43:29,860 --> 00:43:31,000 Too, Yeah. 604 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:35,720 Because it's very, especially as, you know, , I guess we're going there, 605 00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:37,920 but we'll do it quickly. , you know, like, 606 00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:42,640 especially because of the last like 10 years and especially the last maybe five, 607 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,240 three years, um, 608 00:43:45,550 --> 00:43:50,240 this has really become a big larger part of our conversation as a culture, 609 00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:52,960 as a society, realizing 610 00:43:54,860 --> 00:43:58,040 I'm, I wasn't as woke as I thought I was, you know, 611 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:02,360 like the mistakes made along the way. Sure. And like those moments of like, 612 00:44:03,250 --> 00:44:06,760 do I, do I get it yet? Is it a, you know, is it, you know, 613 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,520 like there's so many like moments that I question myself as a, 614 00:44:11,090 --> 00:44:13,040 as an artist and an educator, 615 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:17,760 all the different ways that I present other people's work or I'm inspired by 616 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,040 others, people, other people's work. Um, yeah, it's a big, 617 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,280 it's a big question That might just be a comment on what. 618 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,200 Well, yeah, I'll, I'll offer this, which is, I mean, 619 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:31,120 I've struggled with this too for a very long time. And, um, um, 620 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,920 certainly the, the ethical problems around sampling in particular. Um, 621 00:44:35,380 --> 00:44:38,960 and so I don't have, I don't have answers, um, 622 00:44:39,220 --> 00:44:40,760 and it changes all the time, 623 00:44:40,820 --> 00:44:44,920 but a few of the things that I do are to develop relationships with the people 624 00:44:45,420 --> 00:44:49,480 and the communities that are connected to the archives that I work with. Um, 625 00:44:49,700 --> 00:44:54,200 and that, that is a really good process because it informs, um, 626 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:58,960 what I do. And then I also, um, enter into contracts, 627 00:44:59,290 --> 00:45:03,560 um, like willingly, um, with both, you know, if, 628 00:45:03,570 --> 00:45:07,320 if it's a formal archive with the archivists and then also with, um, 629 00:45:07,790 --> 00:45:11,200 family members or people that might own, uh, 630 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:16,160 the rights to the recordings. Um, and I feel like that sort of, 631 00:45:16,690 --> 00:45:21,440 um, relational, um, uh, interaction, uh, 632 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,520 really goes a long way in, in, uh, 633 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,320 affecting how you use the material. 634 00:45:27,660 --> 00:45:32,640 And so when I think about archives and sampling as not being abstract 635 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,480 at all, but really connected to a group of people who are alive mm-hmm. 636 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,160 and loved those people on the recordings, for example, Right. Um, 637 00:45:40,690 --> 00:45:44,440 uh, it changes how I use the recordings, it changes what, 638 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,480 what material I'll use and then how, how I use it. 639 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:52,440 And so I'm very much interested in that being part of my process and then 640 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:57,000 being audible in, in the projects too. So there's my 2 cents too. 641 00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,400 . I really appreciate that 2 cents. And it, it really shows up here, 642 00:46:01,460 --> 00:46:04,320 you know, in the way that you've used this work. I mean, 643 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:08,680 obviously it's something that you're, you feel personally connected to, 644 00:46:09,330 --> 00:46:14,240 um, but there's a lot of care in how you use 645 00:46:14,870 --> 00:46:17,160 Thomas Merton's recordings. Um, 646 00:46:17,370 --> 00:46:21,080 so I can see how that all sort of connects there. There's a spot, 647 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:25,040 like one thing you said at the beginning of that 2 cents that I think is a 648 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,600 really important thing for, for me to remember. And that is, 649 00:46:28,710 --> 00:46:30,600 I don't have all the answers. And I think when we, 650 00:46:30,750 --> 00:46:35,200 when we really understand that we don't know how to, you know, 651 00:46:35,810 --> 00:46:40,600 we don't know exactly how to move forward respectfully and aware of our own 652 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,800 privilege and, you know, all of these different things that, 653 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:48,640 that are things we should have been thinking about for a long time. Um, 654 00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:53,360 yeah. Just being able to say, Oh, I don't know. Or, Oh, I got that. Yeah, I, 655 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:57,520 I missed that one. . Um, here's how I'll do it differently next time. 656 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,440 , you know, it makes a huge, a huge difference. 657 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,800 Right? Well, when I was a lot younger, um, you know, 658 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,880 I really loved the idea of sampling and, you know, 659 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:11,720 my composition teacher in the uk, Michael Finny, like, was all about, you know, 660 00:47:12,090 --> 00:47:16,920 notated, um, you know, musical borrowing. And so I, I mean, 661 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,680 I come from that, that tradition like going back to Charles Ives or whatever. 662 00:47:21,060 --> 00:47:25,400 But, um, you know, I, it just, it didn't just occur to me. 663 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:30,160 I like started to slowly realize the ethical problems with, 664 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:34,400 you know, just taking whatever you want and using it however you'd like. Um, 665 00:47:34,940 --> 00:47:38,800 and, uh, so that, that built up rather slowly. 666 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:43,760 And then when I was in Kentucky, in, in Bere, I, I met, uh, 667 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:45,920 relatives of people that I had been listening to on the tapes, 668 00:47:46,140 --> 00:47:49,240 and it just hit me so hard. It was just like, 669 00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:53,720 it really changed everything for me. It, it really, again, um, 670 00:47:54,350 --> 00:47:57,840 made me realize that those tapes aren't abstract at all. They can't, 671 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,280 you can't just do whatever you would like with them, 672 00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:05,240 but you really need to spend the time to build up trust between yourself 673 00:48:05,660 --> 00:48:09,080 and, and those, those people connected to those recordings. 674 00:48:09,410 --> 00:48:14,360 Mm. Uh, I can't wait to dig into more of your catalog , like, 675 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,400 as, as I'm talking about this stuff, I'm like, Oh, 676 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,520 there's so much more for me to listen to. Uh. 677 00:48:18,990 --> 00:48:23,560 Yeah. Yeah. Uh, well, and then just lastly, and then I, 678 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,000 I did do a project with the Sun Archives in, 679 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:30,720 in Chicago at Experimental Sound Studio. And again, like the, 680 00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:34,720 the way into it was to be, I mean, I was invited to be, you know, 681 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:38,720 alongside other people and it's like those many different voices all 682 00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:40,600 interpreting the same archive is really important. 683 00:48:40,860 --> 00:48:45,560 And then I also like literally entered a contract with the archivists and with 684 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,440 Sunrise Nephew. Right. So it's like, 685 00:48:47,540 --> 00:48:50,760 and they had to approve whatever I sent them. And, 686 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,320 and to me that like made complete sense. I mean, it was, you know, 687 00:48:54,390 --> 00:48:58,480 biting your nails nerve wracking, but it also, um, 688 00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,000 I was really an important part of the process. Okay. Yeah. There's my. 689 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:03,880 . I'm actually really happy. 690 00:49:04,020 --> 00:49:07,280 I'm happy we're talking about this cause it's, it's a vital topic. 691 00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:08,440 Like it's very important. 692 00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:10,080 Yeah. It's really, really important. 693 00:49:10,270 --> 00:49:14,720 Yeah. Um, we should, um, start winding down this part of our conversation, 694 00:49:14,720 --> 00:49:18,640 but we are gonna listen to another track, um, breath water, Silence, 695 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:23,600 which hasn't been one that I've really like dug deep into, 696 00:49:23,610 --> 00:49:27,720 so I'm excited to listen to it again and also to hear what, 697 00:49:27,750 --> 00:49:29,920 what you'd like to say about it before we listen. 698 00:49:31,050 --> 00:49:35,760 Um, Sure. I mean, I, uh, well, I mean, 699 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:39,600 you know, these are obviously, again, he's thinking about Sufi mystics again, 700 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,720 and he's thinking about a passage which, you know, is a, um, 701 00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:47,560 obviously a religious passage around the idea of, um, you know, 702 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:52,360 all of humanity being a, a breath, you know, like a breath of God. And you know, 703 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:56,960 we're, our lives are breathed out and then it's breathed back in. Um, 704 00:49:57,030 --> 00:50:01,200 I appreciate the, the metaphor of it and um, uh, 705 00:50:01,340 --> 00:50:04,840 but he's also, you know, there's some rain outside. There's like, 706 00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,600 it might be thundering later on or rain coming later on. 707 00:50:07,820 --> 00:50:11,000 And so he's thinking about the weather as well. Um, and, 708 00:50:11,220 --> 00:50:15,360 and he starts to apply breath and um, 709 00:50:15,660 --> 00:50:20,640 and water together in my mind where water becomes another 710 00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,880 metaphor for, for life. Um, and, you know, 711 00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:27,600 he just speaks very eloquently about that. Um, one thing I'll say is, 712 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:32,240 is that I went down this summer to Merton's Hermitage to record and, 713 00:50:32,690 --> 00:50:37,040 um, to shoot some film or whatever, but we were performing there too. Um, 714 00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:37,873 and , 715 00:50:37,990 --> 00:50:42,040 I performed this piece on Merton's front porch and we just did it in one take, 716 00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:46,720 but like when we started, the weather was fine. Um, but like six minutes later, 717 00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:47,430 like a, 718 00:50:47,430 --> 00:50:52,400 a complete thunderstorm had come in and so on 719 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,240 the tape you get to watch, you know, 720 00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:58,680 he's merton's talking about a thunderstorm rolling in, and then one does. And I, 721 00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:02,120 you know, it just was a reminder for me like, Oh wow, 722 00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,000 place plays a big part in, in this. 723 00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,240 And I was glad that we were able to sort of interact with it and, 724 00:51:08,240 --> 00:51:12,200 and capture it in a way. And then when I finished, you know, 725 00:51:12,270 --> 00:51:17,200 I had to take just a few seconds and then we just ran to get the cameras 726 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,000 . Cause we didn't, we didn't want them to get all, you know, 727 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,920 and the recording equipment to get all, all wet. But, um, of course, yeah, 728 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,080 it was a pretty remarkable experience. Yeah. 729 00:51:26,050 --> 00:51:30,720 Uh, is that film somewhere that it can be seen? I totally have missed it. 730 00:51:30,830 --> 00:51:35,440 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I, I mean I, we, I just put it out a couple days ago, 731 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,240 so it's, it's on FIO and YouTube and I can give you the link and everything. 732 00:51:39,240 --> 00:51:39,670 Okay. 733 00:51:39,670 --> 00:51:41,600 I'll put, for those who are listening, 734 00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:46,000 I'll put a link to that in the show notes for this episode. Uh, alright, 735 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:50,960 well it's time to say goodbye. And also, uh, thank you so much for, uh, 736 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:55,560 joining me. Uh, brian hardy.com is your website. I didn't write that down, 737 00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:56,800 but I think I'm remembering that correctly. 738 00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:57,633 That's correct, yeah. 739 00:51:58,170 --> 00:52:02,840 Um, and the album is on band camp and all the streaming places 740 00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:04,040 basically, right? 741 00:52:04,500 --> 00:52:05,400 Yes, it is. 742 00:52:06,130 --> 00:52:09,560 Uh, perfect. All right. Well thanks so much for joining me today. 743 00:52:09,890 --> 00:52:11,040 Oh, thank you for having me. 744 00:52:11,350 --> 00:52:14,200 Sure. This is, uh, breath water silence. 745 00:52:24,670 --> 00:52:28,000 Sunday morning, April 30th. 746 00:52:31,690 --> 00:52:34,510 The bell's ringing down in the monastery for 747 00:52:37,060 --> 00:52:37,893 lads. 748 00:52:41,260 --> 00:52:45,750 It's a dark gray morning. It may rain later. 749 00:52:47,870 --> 00:52:48,703 . 750 00:52:50,700 --> 00:52:54,070 I wanna record some thoughts from, again, 751 00:52:54,070 --> 00:52:58,990 even Rrb on Islam and on 752 00:52:58,990 --> 00:53:03,790 the relation of the Lord to creatures and the relation of the Lord to 753 00:53:03,790 --> 00:53:04,623 nature. 754 00:53:21,100 --> 00:53:25,920 Nature is described by even Rrb 755 00:53:27,530 --> 00:53:31,440 as the breathing of God all being 756 00:53:32,250 --> 00:53:34,240 is grounded in the divine breath. 757 00:53:38,580 --> 00:53:39,680 The prophet says, 758 00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:44,560 He who wants to know the divine breath must try to know the world. 759 00:53:46,540 --> 00:53:50,720 For he who knows himself, knows his Lord, 760 00:53:52,130 --> 00:53:56,640 we seek our Lord then in the midst of the creatures, 761 00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:00,320 which he has breathed out, and which he breathes out around us, 762 00:54:01,140 --> 00:54:05,120 and while he breathes us out also. 763 00:54:06,780 --> 00:54:10,520 And then he will breathe in and take us all back into himself. 764 00:54:11,100 --> 00:54:14,880 And we will realize that all the time we were He 765 00:54:35,750 --> 00:54:39,320 more morning sounds the bright morning, 766 00:54:40,260 --> 00:54:44,200 the sound of water dripping in the bucket is to be heard beside the rain 767 00:54:45,340 --> 00:54:47,080 and the other birds out there. 768 00:54:50,810 --> 00:54:52,760 Uh, for ibi, 769 00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:57,080 water is the most appropriate symbol of life. 770 00:54:58,370 --> 00:55:02,520 He says, The secret of life is in the act of flowing, peculiar to water. 771 00:55:12,980 --> 00:55:17,200 The watery element is for him the most fundamental element. Of course, 772 00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,880 what he's saying there is simply that 773 00:55:21,670 --> 00:55:26,000 he's simply expressing an intuition of dynamism, 774 00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,760 movement, and becoming in all things, uh, 775 00:55:31,350 --> 00:55:35,640 a sense of vitalism and of life in everything 776 00:55:36,900 --> 00:55:40,280 Corresponding to his idea of God's mercy. 777 00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,440 Breathing into everything course, 778 00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:47,040 the breathing would suggest that air is the most subtle element as some of these 779 00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:51,960 other medical decisions would've said. In any case, for him, 780 00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:56,960 water symbolizes the life that runs through everything. 781 00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:00,000 And to be immersed in water 782 00:56:01,530 --> 00:56:05,830 as a baptism in life, to be baptized in life, 783 00:56:06,860 --> 00:56:10,270 I would say that would be a very good symbol 784 00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:16,950 of the hermit life to be totally baptized in the silence 785 00:56:17,450 --> 00:56:21,270 and the flow and the reality of life. 786 00:56:21,860 --> 00:56:25,080 And thereby to know the full reality of existence. 787 00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:11,370 From his brand new album, Words and Silences. 788 00:58:11,370 --> 00:58:15,570 That was Brian Barnetti with Breath, Water, and Silence. 789 00:58:16,010 --> 00:58:18,010 Thank you so much for listening. Thank you, Brian, 790 00:58:18,010 --> 00:58:21,650 for being on the show today and for sharing your work in the bonus podcast. 791 00:58:21,650 --> 00:58:26,130 That'll be up for pod, for I keep saying podcasters instead of patrons. 792 00:58:26,340 --> 00:58:30,970 That'll be up for patrons in just a couple of days. Um, that's really it. 793 00:58:30,970 --> 00:58:34,730 Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this show, tell a friend, um, 794 00:58:34,790 --> 00:58:39,370 but spread the word. I'm really taking a big hiatus from social media right now, 795 00:58:39,370 --> 00:58:41,410 which is where I typically promoted the show. 796 00:58:41,790 --> 00:58:43,610 And I feel great about that , 797 00:58:43,710 --> 00:58:48,010 but I think right now is a great time for you to be telling your friends or 798 00:58:48,010 --> 00:58:52,010 people that you know, who you think might like the podcast, um, to listen to it. 799 00:58:52,010 --> 00:58:54,210 And as always, please send me an email, 800 00:58:54,210 --> 00:58:56,970 mikey pot gmail.com if you listen to the show. 801 00:58:56,970 --> 00:59:00,810 It's really nice to know that people are out there. And, uh, aside from that, 802 00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:03,250 stay tuned for some really cool interviews. 803 00:59:03,250 --> 00:59:04,890 I should have mentioned this in the beginning of the show. 804 00:59:04,890 --> 00:59:09,530 Molly Joyce will be returning to the show in a couple of weeks. And, 805 00:59:09,740 --> 00:59:12,130 um, Martina Oke, 806 00:59:12,590 --> 00:59:17,530 who is a pu enter prize winning playwright who has a 807 00:59:17,530 --> 00:59:20,970 show on Broadway, she'll be on the show next week. Um, 808 00:59:21,550 --> 00:59:26,480 that was a great conversation too. So if you're not already sub, I'm really, I, 809 00:59:27,310 --> 00:59:31,080 I took a nap not long ago and then I chugged a bunch of coffee so I could finish 810 00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:35,120 this podcast. And I think that I'm getting a little jittery. Um, 811 00:59:36,090 --> 00:59:40,640 so subscribe, Tell a friend and I better turn this thing off. 812 00:59:41,690 --> 00:59:43,280 Uh, see you next week. Bye-bye.