1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,000 Hello, and welcome to Mikey PODD podcast. 2 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:05,720 Episode 349 for September 15th, 2022. 3 00:00:05,810 --> 00:00:09,040 Today's guest is composer, performer, sugar veil. 4 00:00:09,110 --> 00:00:12,840 She'll be telling us all about high perform Fest a one day for now, 5 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,080 eclectic boundary, free music gathering that's happening in New York city. 6 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:20,160 We'll also listen to some of her music and we have a great chat about social 7 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,600 media. I've been wanting to talk to sugar on the podcast for a long time. 8 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,360 And those of you who've been listening for a long time might recall that she was 9 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,560 on one of the Mikey PODD live episodes, way back. 10 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,680 I'll put a link to that one in the show notes. I am your host, Michael Herron. 11 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,760 I'm a composer pianist, electronic musician storyteller based in New York city. 12 00:00:38,930 --> 00:00:42,240 On this podcast. I have conversations with fellow creators, 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,160 use their creativity to change the world. 14 00:00:45,470 --> 00:00:49,800 I've been sending this podcast years for 17 years. If you like what you hear, 15 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,320 subscribe using the colorful buttons in the sidebar and footer@mikeypodd.com or 16 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,160 you can just search Mikey PODD in your favorite podcast directory. 17 00:00:57,210 --> 00:01:01,320 If you'd like to know more about me, stop by my website@michaelherron.com. 18 00:01:01,340 --> 00:01:05,640 Hit me up on social media everywhere as at Michael Herron or email me Mikey 19 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:10,000 PODD, gmail.com. I'm trying so hard not to cough right now. Um, hello, 20 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,720 welcome to the show. Um, yeah, this is the check-in zone. 21 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,120 This is where I talk about what's going on in my world. 22 00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:20,520 Y'all it's been a week off of Facebook. I, uh, 23 00:01:20,900 --> 00:01:24,280 dis disabled. Isn't the word I, uh, 24 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:28,760 I put my account on hiatus and now today I'm gonna do it with every other social 25 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:29,600 media. Oh, 26 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,680 I should change that in the intro where I say you can find me on social media 27 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:34,880 everywhere. I'll turn it back on eventually, 28 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:36,840 but just being off Facebook for a week, 29 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,560 it felt like it was gonna be a big deal and it wasn't. 30 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,600 And I love it. So I've been doing a lot of other work. 31 00:01:43,670 --> 00:01:46,120 I've been working behind the scenes on a lot of stuff. 32 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,560 There's been scraps on my, uh, web server, 33 00:01:49,950 --> 00:01:51,920 a lot of work I need to do on my websites. 34 00:01:52,310 --> 00:01:57,080 I finally finally connected all of the old episodes of Mikey PODD during one of 35 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,760 my updates, something screwed up and all of them became unattached. 36 00:02:01,850 --> 00:02:05,200 So I had to go back and manually attach each one, but it's finally done. 37 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:10,040 And it was really cool. I went back through all of these 17 years of, uh, 38 00:02:10,090 --> 00:02:13,040 entries kind of remembering the guests. 39 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:17,720 There was a period of time when I just did music. It was just a music podcast. 40 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:19,440 There was a period of time when I first started, 41 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,360 when it was sort of half journal, half interviews. 42 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,000 When I still lived in Texas, there was a lot. 43 00:02:26,250 --> 00:02:29,440 So it was cool looking back there and also seeing some people that have been 44 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:30,680 listening ever since then, 45 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,320 when people used to leave comments on actual blog posts, um, 46 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:39,560 those were the days does anyone remember like I do. Uh, so anyway, 47 00:02:39,670 --> 00:02:44,560 I feel like I'm really kind of getting things in place for what feels like 48 00:02:44,630 --> 00:02:47,160 a kind of creative thing happening. 49 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,840 I'm working on learning some new synthesis techniques and, uh, yeah, 50 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:51,560 so it's kind of cool. 51 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:56,240 I'm feeling really energized and like things are moving for a change and I owe 52 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,760 it all to turning off Facebook. I mean, not there's some other factors as well, 53 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:05,360 but it's making a huge difference. So we should get into the interview. Um, 54 00:03:05,510 --> 00:03:09,200 I do wanna first thank my subscribers on Patreon for powering this podcast. 55 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,000 These are people who subscribe for $5 or more a month and get special perks, 56 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,440 like tons of free downloads of my music and zines bonus pods. 57 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:21,120 We're getting close to 80 podcasts that are just bonuses that are only available 58 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,280 on Patreon. Um, and you'll have immediate access to all that stuff. 59 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,600 If you subscribe too, including this week's bonus episode, 60 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,160 which is gonna be something really cool. 61 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,160 I discovered while I was sorting through all this, 62 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,520 these random files that were up on Michael heron.com and mypad.com. 63 00:03:35,710 --> 00:03:38,560 I found the old back in 2005, 64 00:03:38,710 --> 00:03:43,600 I was asked by the national coalition to abolish the death penalty to podcast, 65 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,520 start a podcast for them. And it didn't go anywhere. 66 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:48,480 I can't remember what happened. Um, 67 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,280 but I thought those podcasts were lost for good, but the first two episodes. 68 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,400 And I think they were the only two episodes, um, were up there. 69 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:56,240 I found them like, 70 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,080 as I was rooting around in all these folders that needed to come down. Um, 71 00:04:00,570 --> 00:04:03,760 so I'm gonna release one of those as a bonus podcast this week. 72 00:04:03,980 --> 00:04:06,880 I'm really excited to share that. I wish I had some of the, the, um, 73 00:04:07,260 --> 00:04:10,680 the graphics and whatnot that I did with that show. And honestly, 74 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:12,440 I don't even remember if I had any graphics. 75 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,680 There must have been like album art, but anyway, it's not there anymore. 76 00:04:16,690 --> 00:04:19,520 Or is it maybe I can find it well for now. 77 00:04:19,870 --> 00:04:22,960 Just know that that bonus I'm going on about this too much. 78 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:27,160 There will be a bonus podcast this week. That's the summary of that. Um, 79 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,880 and so before we get into the interview with sugar Vanil, 80 00:04:31,390 --> 00:04:34,320 I would like to play some music for sugar Vanil. And this is like, 81 00:04:34,550 --> 00:04:39,480 this piece of music is like bonus enough. 82 00:04:39,630 --> 00:04:43,800 Like this is a really cool piece of music it's entitled. Um, 83 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,560 may we know our own strength and, uh, this is sugar van di. 84 00:07:37,610 --> 00:07:38,480 No, no. 85 00:08:40,510 --> 00:08:41,343 Ha. 86 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,650 That was sugar Vanil with may. 87 00:09:54,650 --> 00:09:58,210 We know our own strength and sugar is here joining me now. 88 00:09:58,210 --> 00:10:00,850 Thanks so much for joining me on the podcast. Thanks. 89 00:10:00,850 --> 00:10:01,683 For having me. 90 00:10:01,710 --> 00:10:05,650 But I've wanting to talk to you for a while and I just never did it. 91 00:10:05,650 --> 00:10:09,890 I never reached out because so much of your social media take 92 00:10:10,310 --> 00:10:13,170 has been really inspiring me to think more deeply about things. 93 00:10:13,170 --> 00:10:17,210 But first I want to talk about, um, high perform Fest. 94 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:22,050 This is something new that you've started that, uh, is really exciting. 95 00:10:22,890 --> 00:10:23,330 Actually. It's funny, 96 00:10:23,330 --> 00:10:27,650 social media sort of like I had tweeted like I'm back in like 2018 97 00:10:28,570 --> 00:10:30,450 I sort of like, you know, 98 00:10:30,450 --> 00:10:32,890 I was really frustrated just with the gatekeepers, 99 00:10:32,890 --> 00:10:36,610 like in my field in particular and contemporary music, new music, 100 00:10:36,610 --> 00:10:39,690 just how like white it is, you know, mm-hmm and not, I mean, like, 101 00:10:39,690 --> 00:10:41,490 I know there's diversity in terms of the artists, 102 00:10:41,490 --> 00:10:45,330 but like in terms of who's making the decisions, not so much. 103 00:10:45,980 --> 00:10:50,010 So I tweeted them, like, I wanna start something that's by us and for us. 104 00:10:50,010 --> 00:10:53,090 And of course, like, you know, typical, you get all the hearts or whatever. 105 00:10:53,090 --> 00:10:55,730 And then that idea like set for a while, 106 00:10:55,730 --> 00:11:00,570 because I couldn't think of anything and I was busy and, and then I don't know. 107 00:11:00,570 --> 00:11:02,650 I just was like, um, you know, 108 00:11:02,650 --> 00:11:07,610 I should get a group of people together to think about this, not just, um, 109 00:11:08,270 --> 00:11:12,730 you know, I wanna be more collaborative. So I got a group of composers together, 110 00:11:12,730 --> 00:11:15,770 like on zoom because we couldn't meet up in person. Um, 111 00:11:16,430 --> 00:11:20,930 and just like started brainstorming what we would dream of 112 00:11:21,330 --> 00:11:23,930 together. Like what would, what we wanna see. So we start, 113 00:11:23,930 --> 00:11:26,610 we talked about so many things. Oh, and those artists are, um, 114 00:11:27,150 --> 00:11:30,490 I'm gonna name them in an alphabetical order. 115 00:11:30,890 --> 00:11:35,650 we Waller, who's spearheading this first, uh, this first, 116 00:11:35,650 --> 00:11:40,330 I guess, um, event with me, Tran Aaron cent. 117 00:11:40,710 --> 00:11:45,050 And he Negron Janelle Lawrence and Walter Aparicio. 118 00:11:45,550 --> 00:11:48,970 And I hope I haven't left anyone out. I think that was everyone. Um, 119 00:11:49,380 --> 00:11:50,370 so we just dreamed, 120 00:11:50,580 --> 00:11:55,160 dreamed things up and we talked about genre and how like genre is such a, 121 00:11:55,970 --> 00:11:59,360 um, you know, it's just a way to like silo everyone. And it is, 122 00:11:59,630 --> 00:12:03,800 I don't wanna just be like, and it's racist , but how, 123 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,240 there are so many racial implications, you know, when you, 124 00:12:06,590 --> 00:12:10,280 when you separate genre. So we're trying to, you know, make a genre list and, 125 00:12:10,930 --> 00:12:14,640 um, and then yeah, like it took, you know, 126 00:12:14,710 --> 00:12:18,720 a long time again for you for this to even get off the ground. You know, 127 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:23,000 so for this first one, uh, we have three really awesome artists, um, 128 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,520 jazz drummer, Jerome Gilles, his band, um, 129 00:12:26,930 --> 00:12:31,640 someone from the electronic music world. Um, and she's also sound designer, 130 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,920 Chloe Alexander Thompson and Jasmine Hern. 131 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:39,040 Who's an amazing dancer and also makes really dope music . 132 00:12:39,250 --> 00:12:43,680 So that's really like a unique mix of people and it's on 133 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,080 September 25th at St. Mark's. 134 00:12:46,170 --> 00:12:49,280 So much of that. I love, like I was reading the description. 135 00:12:49,910 --> 00:12:54,360 I love the way the idea is, what did I write about this? The, oh, 136 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:55,720 it's your quote? Well, 137 00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:00,080 from the website that you're erase erasing boundaries of genre and unify any 138 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,600 sound based art form, um, shaped by a high level of craft, 139 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:04,920 dedication and virtuosity, 140 00:13:04,980 --> 00:13:09,800 but then it goes on to kind of describe the idea that those 141 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,720 words themselves are fluid. Right? Like, so it, 142 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:15,000 I, 143 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,960 I love the way that it's preventing new boundaries from being put up 144 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,080 from the description of what the thing is. 145 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,800 Am I I feel like I said that in a weird way. Yeah. 146 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:26,320 But does it make sense what I'm getting at? 147 00:13:26,750 --> 00:13:29,000 Yeah, definitely. It's like, it's more, 148 00:13:29,630 --> 00:13:32,840 I guess it's about humility ultimately for me, 149 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:37,000 like to acknowledge that that's just so subjective and I mean, 150 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,720 like we could have just written like hashtag stay on the, I guess, but , 151 00:13:40,820 --> 00:13:42,880 you know, it's, it's really about that. Like, 152 00:13:42,980 --> 00:13:47,440 and the idea is that we're not always the same people curating mm-hmm 153 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,720 um, and that's another, like, 154 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:55,280 that's another idea pie in the sky thing is to decentralize that gatekeeper role 155 00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:57,360 and by to do that, 156 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,240 you have to have other people making decisions, 157 00:14:02,020 --> 00:14:04,800 you know, and it's gonna be such a, I mean, 158 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,600 it's a really small thing because we don't have, you know, a ton of funding. 159 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,680 Like for example, we had to start off with one concert. We, we don't have, 160 00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:13,280 we can't plan an entire series yet, but yeah, 161 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,600 we're just trying to like put these seeds out there, you know, 162 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,760 so for the next one, hopefully it's not us, 163 00:14:18,830 --> 00:14:22,080 it's someone else bringing other people in, into the fold. 164 00:14:22,270 --> 00:14:27,080 It's really telling that it feels so unusual, right. To, 165 00:14:27,170 --> 00:14:31,520 to start an organization that you're intending to not be 166 00:14:32,430 --> 00:14:34,040 completely power of. 167 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:38,080 Which is so weird because I was, it was a complete opposite before that, 168 00:14:38,420 --> 00:14:41,840 you know, with my, the ensemble I'm ending, it was a complete opposite. 169 00:14:41,970 --> 00:14:45,440 It was so different. I was like really doing everything to, 170 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,920 I guess the trust is hard. I mean, I'm not gonna get into it, 171 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,760 but we are all basically projecting our traumas onto everything, 172 00:14:52,090 --> 00:14:55,680 whether or not we're aware it, you know? And so I think that was a huge factor. 173 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:57,240 And so, you know, over the years, 174 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,000 I've just learned more and more about collaboration and what that means, 175 00:15:01,460 --> 00:15:05,720 you know, which I guess it means different things to different people. Right. 176 00:15:05,810 --> 00:15:10,800 Um, um, so yeah, it's, it's a really interesting thing, 177 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,640 you know, and the idea is to just also, for me, 178 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,360 I think is to remain vigilant of your own biases, you know, 179 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:17,840 mm-hmm and again, I think that's, 180 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,400 what's going to make a difference, like, 181 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,720 in terms of bringing other people in to make these choices of who's gonna be 182 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,200 part of this, I mean, open, open, like musical theater, 183 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,600 even like we had talked about this, like, you know, are we going to like, 184 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,120 be like, no, no, we won't . 185 00:15:35,390 --> 00:15:36,060 Yeah. 186 00:15:36,060 --> 00:15:38,240 You know, country? No, we won't say no. 187 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,880 Like if it's something that like will listen with, like, it says open ears, 188 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:43,640 like really listen mm-hmm . I mean, 189 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,680 I was listening to country like on accident last month as I'd Googled a phrase, 190 00:15:48,060 --> 00:15:52,480 and then there was a song, like, it was, I was like Glu Googling, slow burden. 191 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,120 Cause this is how I've always described, like the way I've my career is. 192 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,160 And then like, you know, is it Casey? Musker I don't even know exactly I've. 193 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:01,320 Heard. Yeah. I think that's. 194 00:16:01,860 --> 00:16:04,080 And I'm like, oh, this isn't bad. You know. 195 00:16:04,510 --> 00:16:08,240 It's interesting that you're intentionally dropping the barriers in this 196 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,640 performance space. And also just within yourself, 197 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:15,320 it sounds like to like put down your own preconceived notions about discovering 198 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,720 this country music. Yeah. And, um, and making a space for it. 199 00:16:19,070 --> 00:16:22,920 Yeah. I think it's also just a way to live. Like music might be like a, 200 00:16:23,460 --> 00:16:27,640 you know, a little like microcosm of this idea, you know, 201 00:16:27,780 --> 00:16:29,360 but we do it all the time with, 202 00:16:29,430 --> 00:16:32,800 even with people like you see someone and you think, you know, 203 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,400 and that's cuz it's, this is how I've experienced my life. 204 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,840 People look at me and like take, you know, 205 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,880 they take one look and make all sorts of assumptions, you know? Or they, like, 206 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,280 in my case, like they've seen, they've like taken one interest of mine, 207 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,040 which is fashion mm-hmm and then like made all sorts of 208 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,640 assumptions and imposed, like whatever the health bullshit they want on me. 209 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,960 They don't know anything about me. Like, yeah. 210 00:16:54,990 --> 00:16:56,840 Like you wouldn't guess that like, 211 00:16:57,390 --> 00:17:01,400 like I get in the street fights when people mess with me and I usually win them, 212 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,640 like not necessarily fist fights, but I like scare people, you know? Like, 213 00:17:04,870 --> 00:17:08,400 like no one, like I, I guess I just like, yeah. I just like, 214 00:17:08,590 --> 00:17:13,440 I just project my own shit on all my shit. well, empathy. 215 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,280 I want empathy. So how do I bring empathy into this space? You know? Yeah. 216 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,920 Open someone, openness. How do I bring that here? I dunno. 217 00:17:20,430 --> 00:17:24,240 Yeah. I wonder like when you were talking about, um, 218 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,000 sometimes I ask these questions and I worry that it's getting that I'm getting 219 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,440 too therapy ish. So feel free. It's. 220 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:31,920 It's all the rage right now. 221 00:17:32,310 --> 00:17:33,143 Yeah. 222 00:17:33,420 --> 00:17:36,280 And yet how, why are we still here? 223 00:17:36,590 --> 00:17:41,080 Well, that's the thing, like, I'm going off on another side thing, but you know, 224 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:42,720 right now, especially in the world, 225 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,520 like there are a lot of things that are terrible, right? 226 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,960 Like a lot of things that are terrible. Um, and a lot of, 227 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,640 of 'em have been terrible for a long time and some of us just haven't paid 228 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:53,480 attention mm-hmm . But you know, 229 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,640 when I think about the type of work that you're doing and, and, uh, 230 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:02,280 with high perform in particular that you're, it, 231 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:03,840 it feels like, um, 232 00:18:04,030 --> 00:18:09,000 a workshop for like what the world could be, you know? Like it, 233 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:10,320 it makes me feel like, oh yeah, 234 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,520 like in the midst of this kind of shit storm of the world, 235 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,960 there are people who are like, wait, what is it? How, 236 00:18:18,270 --> 00:18:20,920 what would it look like to do this differently? 237 00:18:21,870 --> 00:18:26,680 Yeah. Yeah. And exactly. And ideally, I mean, I, 238 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,040 if like, if we could, like, if we had funding, 239 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:33,280 I would've wanted to make it completely free, you know? Yeah. It's just, yeah, 240 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,280 we couldn't, but, um, yeah, exactly. I think that's such a, that's beautiful. 241 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,160 Like that's, that makes so much sense me and it, it really is. 242 00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:42,800 I think what we're trying to do. 243 00:18:43,020 --> 00:18:47,840 But with that in mind and the idea of like the way we bring our trauma, 244 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,040 this is the therapy part. we bring our, like, 245 00:18:51,250 --> 00:18:53,920 we all just have a tendency to bring our trauma and our, you know, 246 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,440 our past and all of these things into our present and into our relationships and 247 00:18:58,440 --> 00:18:59,360 our working environments. 248 00:19:00,410 --> 00:19:05,120 Is there a way that you and the people that are you're working with here 249 00:19:05,270 --> 00:19:09,920 make a space for that as you're also trying to not include it 250 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:11,000 does that. 251 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,120 Make sense? This has honestly been one of the best collaborations ever. Um, 252 00:19:15,150 --> 00:19:20,120 Alicia's just amazing. Um, and I think, I don't know, 253 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:24,240 maybe I've become just a better collaborator after screwing up so many times, 254 00:19:24,740 --> 00:19:25,720 you know? I mean, 255 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,160 I'm surprised some of these people are still friends with me oh, I mean, 256 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,320 but I mean, I will say like, um, 257 00:19:31,990 --> 00:19:34,960 I do think I'm a very self-aware person and like, I'm also, 258 00:19:35,270 --> 00:19:37,520 I will admit when I'm wrong. Mm-hmm , you know, 259 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,400 at least there's that, I think that was my same grace, but I think like, 260 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,920 I think just being so transparent, you know, I, I told, 261 00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:49,440 I talked to Alicia about actually what my traumas were with working with people 262 00:19:49,790 --> 00:19:54,080 mm-hmm , you know, and she just knowing that I think, you know, 263 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,120 probably helped. Um, and she kept, you know, she said more than once, you know, 264 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:01,880 I want you to know this isn't all on you. Like, 265 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:06,440 you're not the only one who has to do everything. And that, that helped so much. 266 00:20:06,490 --> 00:20:10,720 So then I was able to also let go, you know, of things, like instead of being, 267 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,520 oh, don't worry about it. I'll do it. I'll do it. And. 268 00:20:12,570 --> 00:20:13,200 Oh yeah. 269 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,400 Yeah. So, um, because I had been so let down in the past too, like, 270 00:20:17,830 --> 00:20:22,520 like having to do most of the work, you know, and, and, you know, 271 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,160 it's like, yeah, granted, like, um, there was not a lot of money. 272 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,080 Sometimes you're, it's a passion project. And like, you know, people, 273 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,160 like there were pain in the ass admin things, 274 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,200 and none of us were getting like a salary or something. 275 00:20:34,730 --> 00:20:36,400 So that also made it hard. But like, um, 276 00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:39,640 but I think just being really transparent, like if I had, 277 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:41,920 if I was worried about something, I'd sometimes say like, 278 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:43,600 this has nothing to do with you. I just want, you know, 279 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:45,600 I'm like totally projecting all my shit. . 280 00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:46,380 Yeah. 281 00:20:46,380 --> 00:20:50,160 You know, know, I think that really helps. And also like, I, 282 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,320 sometimes you just crash and burn, like I did, 283 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,840 like with all these other collaborations. Right? Like, 284 00:20:55,220 --> 00:20:57,680 and then you learn from them, hopefully if you're lucky, 285 00:20:57,750 --> 00:21:00,960 I think so many people don't really, I'm gonna be completely Frank. 286 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:06,200 been a little arrogant, but for real, like, um, but you you're like, 287 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,160 okay, next time I gotta to do this, you know, 288 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:09,680 or next time this needs to be different. 289 00:21:10,390 --> 00:21:13,440 Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. I think like, 290 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:18,400 I feel I'm on a different extreme of that where I just 291 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,480 don't collaborate cuz I'm too, like, I don't know how to do that, but I can see, 292 00:21:22,930 --> 00:21:24,640 um, you know, where it's, 293 00:21:24,990 --> 00:21:29,640 what I'm missing out on something by avoiding those kind of creative 294 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:30,473 relationships. 295 00:21:31,090 --> 00:21:33,560 Oh yeah. You think so? I'm like, I don't know. 296 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,040 I'm like sometimes I really just wanna be all alone to know . 297 00:21:37,790 --> 00:21:40,880 I think it's true, but I think there's also, you know, like places where, 298 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,480 you know, when I have worked with other people, 299 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,600 like with the director or something like that, when it's like, oh, this what, 300 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,000 it's good to have other people involved in your work to have a different 301 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,040 perspective and, and different ideas and helping, you know, 302 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,080 make connections that we notice on our own. 303 00:21:57,710 --> 00:22:01,880 Yeah. I guess it helps to be really clear about who's doing what, you know, 304 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,200 mm-hmm and like, um, collaboration, honestly, 305 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,600 it doesn't people bank, it means zero hierarchy, like zero, zero. 306 00:22:11,330 --> 00:22:14,520 Um, I would say with meanly, it's probably like that, but we're, 307 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:19,240 I think it's cuz we're both. So like, I don't wanna say type a, but like cool. 308 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,720 Got it. Get it done like that. But like, you know, sometimes let's say, 309 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,600 you know, if you can see a project, for example, mm-hmm, like, 310 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,840 it's okay to say like, yeah, I really am like, 311 00:22:29,030 --> 00:22:32,120 like leading this and it doesn't and it means you're like, 312 00:22:32,370 --> 00:22:35,560 it means you're like leading this, you know, it doesn't mean you are, 313 00:22:35,910 --> 00:22:39,920 you're like gonna be complete bulldozer. It just means you're steering. Like, 314 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:41,960 so you're just steering the thing, you know? 315 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,920 It doesn't mean like you're stepping on people. Yeah. 316 00:22:45,130 --> 00:22:48,120 So that's another thing get comfortable with, I think is, um, 317 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,440 being okay with that. Yeah. You know, mm-hmm. 318 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,440 so much learning in our worlds because learning in like 319 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:57,130 yeah. 320 00:22:57,130 --> 00:23:00,360 So and so much nuance and uh, it's, 321 00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:03,120 it's a lot like things and I'm even encountering things. 322 00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:04,320 I never thought I'd encounter, 323 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,600 which I'm not gonna get into detail about cuz it's so gr but tiny things. 324 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,360 And you're just like, huh. Interesting. 325 00:23:09,670 --> 00:23:14,640 I wanna talk a little bit about social media because unbeknownst to you you've 326 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,520 really like you made a post, it was months ago about stopping social media. 327 00:23:20,210 --> 00:23:24,120 Um, which has shifted for you. I noticed, I think just yesterday. Yeah. 328 00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:27,000 I was gonna say, you're gonna kill me, but I guess you already knew. Yeah. 329 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:27,480 But I knew, 330 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,920 but I think that's part of what is really interesting about the whole thing. 331 00:23:32,570 --> 00:23:37,000 Um, so in a nutshell, and of course you can describe this better than I can. 332 00:23:37,410 --> 00:23:41,760 Um, you, you chose to step away from social media, 333 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,920 which a lot of, especially for an artist, uh, independent artist, 334 00:23:46,710 --> 00:23:51,640 it's often like something we perceive as our lifeline to 335 00:23:52,670 --> 00:23:56,880 having an audience mm-hmm um, and it may or may not be, 336 00:23:57,660 --> 00:24:02,080 and it, but it's definitely different from how we perceive it. 337 00:24:02,580 --> 00:24:05,920 But, um, it was, it was really interesting to me because, uh, 338 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,720 part of what's gone on with me with social media is that it's become my, 339 00:24:10,890 --> 00:24:13,960 um, avoidance technique for being an artist. You know, 340 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,640 instead of it's either, you know, 341 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,360 I spend a lot of time scrolling and having questionable 342 00:24:20,860 --> 00:24:25,040 conversations with people who really are just into it to argue, you know, 343 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:29,640 like I really get into a lot of like nonsense energy that could be spent, 344 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:34,240 you know, doing other things. Um, and also like the fear of, you know, 345 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,360 like with the podcast, as an example, 346 00:24:37,830 --> 00:24:40,120 I go in periods where I don't release the podcast as much. 347 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:43,640 And part of it is because it doesn't feel like I'm just releasing a podcast is 348 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,240 like releasing the podcast and oh, 349 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,640 I better put something like maybe some make some video that will promote it on 350 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:50,560 my Instagram reel. 351 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:55,160 Like it becomes this gigantic project that isn't even more about the thing. Um, 352 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,080 you talked about a lot of that so much more eloquently than I just did, 353 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,000 but where are you with all of that? 354 00:25:00,770 --> 00:25:03,400 Um, I think that the break was definitely good. 355 00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:07,400 Mm-hmm because for, for example, um, with the, 356 00:25:07,870 --> 00:25:11,880 I did post yesterday and part of that is because it, you know, you know, 357 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,120 just full disclosure, like the, the series, the concert series is so new, 358 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,480 right. It doesn't have a mailing list yet. Right. It has no followers basically. 359 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,200 Cause it's so new. So I'm like, well I really need to help, you know, 360 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:29,040 help with this. The thing is like, I was able to just do the thing because, 361 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:29,800 and not look, 362 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,360 not check on how things were doing mm-hmm and before I would just 363 00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:36,720 keep refreshing, you know, like the hard part, 364 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,480 like to see how it got, 365 00:25:38,620 --> 00:25:42,240 how it did and I'm not gonna look until like next Wednesday because that's, 366 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,440 that's my thing. It's like, I'm only gonna go once a week and not even like, 367 00:25:46,460 --> 00:25:49,320 and once means once, like, it doesn't mean like you get to go, 368 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,920 I get to go on for the whole day. It's like just once. And, 369 00:25:52,220 --> 00:25:56,120 but it doesn't feel bad and I'm not tempted because I took all this time off. 370 00:25:56,810 --> 00:26:00,720 Um, and honestly like, I mean, I, I know I put it in a caption, 371 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,520 but I'll say it here too. Like it really, I mean, it's, I'll say it sucks. 372 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:05,480 Like it's, it's like linked, 373 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,600 it is LinkedIn for artists mm-hmm and I do think back to, 374 00:26:09,940 --> 00:26:12,640 and I'd written about it too, but there are times when it's like, 375 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,920 I got work that way and you know, 376 00:26:15,950 --> 00:26:19,640 it's like other artists aren't curating like the way I am with this series. 377 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,520 And then, you know, you know, 378 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,640 you just it's basically like casting like wishes into wishing. Well, 379 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,600 I really see it that way. um, but also it's, it's a place. 380 00:26:30,630 --> 00:26:33,480 I, I was also thinking, you know, I did say keep up my blog, 381 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,320 but I don't have time for that shit. Like I don't have time, um, 382 00:26:36,330 --> 00:26:41,200 to like make a post on my blog and like little snippets, 383 00:26:41,410 --> 00:26:45,760 um, of video it's like, where do you put that? You know, I'm like, 384 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,200 there are some cool stuff I've done that isn't like fully produced. Um, 385 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,760 you know, like archival footage. I'm like, where do I put that? 386 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,160 It's there where it gives people an idea, you know? So it's like, it's really, 387 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,040 it really is a work thing. But, um, 388 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,360 I think I've been able to separate it from like validation thing. 389 00:27:02,380 --> 00:27:05,120 And the other thing is I did notice it, you know, 390 00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:08,320 sometimes some friends wouldn't text me as often as they used to. 391 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,320 While you were on your. 392 00:27:10,550 --> 00:27:15,000 Social media. Like some of my closest friends. Yeah. Yeah. And like, 393 00:27:15,140 --> 00:27:18,720 I'm just like, this is how people stay in touch and then it, 394 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,280 and I don't have to constantly be posting, but it's like, yeah. 395 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,680 Soon as I posted three people texted. 396 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,240 Me when they saw that your post. 397 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,280 . Yeah. It's just funny. It's like people are, I'm like, yep. I, 398 00:27:29,350 --> 00:27:32,600 I called it, you know, there's something easy about it. 399 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,680 I guess people are too shy to email. If they're interested in reaching out, 400 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,160 like they're more comfortable here. Yeah. For better or for worse. I mean, 401 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,720 it's not really that good of a thing. I don't think it's not terrible thing, 402 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,560 but it's, it's somewhere in the middle, I guess. So it does, 403 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,640 it is an open line of communication for people. Like they, 404 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,560 there people are, are so shy. I think. 405 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,360 Thinking about this stuff, it's just, so. 406 00:27:57,570 --> 00:27:58,720 Am I an overthinker? Yeah. 407 00:27:59,050 --> 00:28:02,280 No, well, I do the same thing, but , you're like my, 408 00:28:02,570 --> 00:28:06,480 my overthinking just feels more like foggy when I'm talking to you. I'm like, 409 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,000 oh, okay. Like I'm finding some direction for the things, you know, 410 00:28:11,650 --> 00:28:16,240 it it's such a mixed blessing. 411 00:28:17,210 --> 00:28:20,640 It feels weird to say just the existence of social media and the way that it's 412 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,920 made us so connected. And you know, as artists, 413 00:28:24,270 --> 00:28:28,480 it's so much easier to like get our work in front of someone. 414 00:28:29,450 --> 00:28:29,940 Um, 415 00:28:29,940 --> 00:28:34,320 but there's such a interesting cost and now we're in this place where it feels 416 00:28:35,110 --> 00:28:36,520 like we have to do it. 417 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,400 I know. And it, it does feel like I have to do it cuz it's like, I'm not gonna, 418 00:28:40,420 --> 00:28:44,440 you know, I'll be totally honest. It's like, yeah, I wrote that, you know, 419 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,040 like I don't think I have the privilege to leave, but it's like, 420 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,760 what does privilege mean? Like fame? Sure. Yeah, because it's not fame. I don't, 421 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,240 it's not fame that I want. It's like, I want an, I want people, 422 00:28:55,270 --> 00:28:57,720 I want an audience, you know, mm-hmm and um, 423 00:28:58,310 --> 00:29:01,280 it's just the mailing list thing is very slow. 424 00:29:02,030 --> 00:29:06,920 It's a slow going thing. And um, it's like, 425 00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:07,520 I mean, 426 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,080 I guess social is just like a little reminder and I know people would be like, 427 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,360 yeah, do like you have to have be visible and this, this and this. It's like, 428 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,440 yeah, no shit. Except that you're constantly looking at it. 429 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,520 If you're constantly looking at it, like that's the trade off. 430 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,600 So I've trained myself to not constantly look at it. That's a difference. 431 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,840 You know, it's like, I feel like it's a, it's a, 432 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,760 there is a potential there that like I have to tap into without, 433 00:29:32,020 --> 00:29:36,080 but I found a way to do it. So it's not taking over my entire life. Like it was. 434 00:29:36,470 --> 00:29:40,600 It's interesting to see your process with it because you have a process with it. 435 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,280 And I've kind, kind of like, I, 436 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,440 I'm trying to figure out where my space is with all of these things too. Um, 437 00:29:47,330 --> 00:29:49,480 so, uh, yeah. I don't know where that's gonna wind up. 438 00:29:49,810 --> 00:29:52,600 Do you have some other performances coming up? 439 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,760 What else can people go and see you doing well? 440 00:29:55,820 --> 00:29:59,400 I'm dancing, um, in someone else's piece, um, 441 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,480 for this amazing choreographer that I dance for named Emily Johnson 442 00:30:04,260 --> 00:30:08,880 and the company is called, uh, Emily Johnson catalyst. And, um, 443 00:30:09,710 --> 00:30:14,200 it's really awesome. And it's going to premier at the broad in LA, 444 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,640 but it'll premiere in New York at Nyla in October. 445 00:30:18,180 --> 00:30:20,360 And what is Nyla? I don't think I know what that is. 446 00:30:20,490 --> 00:30:22,880 Oh, uh, New York live arts it's in Chelsea. 447 00:30:23,070 --> 00:30:23,960 Mm-hmm oh. 448 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,920 Cool. Like T Jones space. 449 00:30:26,750 --> 00:30:31,440 Um-huh so that's really amazing. It really it's about, 450 00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:34,600 you know, breaking down the structures and um, 451 00:30:34,780 --> 00:30:39,320 institutional structures and uh it's yeah. 452 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:44,200 Nice thing in it too. so dance in it. Really great. 453 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:45,033 I love it. 454 00:30:45,290 --> 00:30:49,440 Um, that, but it's not your music. It's a different composer. 455 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,760 Yeah. It's Raven shaone actually. Okay. He composed the music. 456 00:30:54,250 --> 00:30:55,320 Um, he's amazing. 457 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,880 He just won the Pulitzer and then also won a Grammy this year. 458 00:31:00,300 --> 00:31:01,133 Wow. 459 00:31:01,150 --> 00:31:03,440 Yeah. Yeah. His music is so cool. 460 00:31:03,670 --> 00:31:07,280 You're in the process of creating an album mm-hmm that I know is 461 00:31:07,650 --> 00:31:12,480 in heavily in, uh, a work in progress, 462 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:13,150 right? 463 00:31:13,150 --> 00:31:16,960 Yeah. I've been trying to, I thought I was gonna get it done in 2020. 464 00:31:18,420 --> 00:31:20,680 I'm like ha ha. That's funny. Oh. 465 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:21,470 Yeah. 466 00:31:21,470 --> 00:31:25,800 It's for, um, voice piano and electronics and um, 467 00:31:26,510 --> 00:31:28,640 I think I'm gonna call it tunnel vision. 468 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,880 It was gonna be called late bloomer at first, cuz that's me. Uhhuh, 469 00:31:32,980 --> 00:31:36,520 but now it's called, I think it's called tunnel vision and I'm hoping, 470 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,400 I'm hoping that'll get released in like March or April. 471 00:31:40,050 --> 00:31:42,360 Um oh, cool. That's not too far off. 472 00:31:42,590 --> 00:31:45,080 I know. So I gotta like get a move on it. Huh? . 473 00:31:46,110 --> 00:31:51,000 Yeah, yeah. Uh, well, it's been really good to talk to you. 474 00:31:51,730 --> 00:31:52,320 Me too. 475 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:57,240 Before we wrap it up, I wanna make sure like what where's like central 476 00:31:58,390 --> 00:32:00,800 your website sugar. Oh. 477 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:05,520 Yeah, yeah. And my newsletter. Um, I, um, yeah, 478 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:06,960 I send one to two a month. 479 00:32:07,310 --> 00:32:10,760 I might send one also like the day before a concert, 480 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,800 but I try not to do too much. 481 00:32:13,150 --> 00:32:15,400 Yeah. You know? Um, yeah, 482 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,400 I'll put I'll at least I'll put definitely a link to your website and it's easy. 483 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:20,320 It's right there on the front. 484 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,760 Isn't it to sign up for the newsletter mm-hmm yeah, yeah. 485 00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:26,160 Yeah. I should also redo my website, but that's a whole other thing. 486 00:32:26,610 --> 00:32:27,440 Uh, you know, 487 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,440 I've been working on my website and a lot of times I've looked at your website 488 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,240 for how you have things organized. Oh really? Oh yeah. Let's I think cuz we, 489 00:32:37,100 --> 00:32:39,640 you, you do a lot of different things and I do too, 490 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:44,120 and it often feels overwhelming to try to like figure out how to present that on 491 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:44,880 one website. 492 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,600 So it's been kind of cool to look at yours and see what you've done. 493 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,400 Yeah. Glad it's helpful. Yeah. 494 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,800 Yeah, yeah. Um, alright, well thanks so much for, oh, 495 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,120 we're gonna listen to one more track. Oh. But we haven't chosen it yet. 496 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,360 oh, maybe let's do, um, BPM it's short. 497 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,520 The other one is like 17 minutes. 498 00:33:05,290 --> 00:33:06,123 Perfect. 499 00:33:06,210 --> 00:33:10,720 Um, and it's BPM, beautiful piano music was for my album, 500 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,240 but it also ended up being for my friends fashion film. 501 00:33:15,150 --> 00:33:15,790 Okay. 502 00:33:15,790 --> 00:33:18,760 Yeah. So it's, it's just, it's really like, 503 00:33:18,870 --> 00:33:21,440 I guess it's like a love letter to the piano in a way. 504 00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:25,600 And it's also a joke a little bit because it's like, I mean, 505 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,680 to me it's so personal. It's like, am I allowed to write music like this? 506 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,160 Like straight up, wanna be show pan music as. 507 00:33:32,250 --> 00:33:36,880 As opposed to something more quote unquote experimental or new musicy yeah. 508 00:33:36,910 --> 00:33:37,400 Yeah. 509 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,320 Or out there and also beautiful piano music I think is one of the most searched 510 00:33:41,470 --> 00:33:45,480 things on Spotify. So I thought that was funny. 511 00:33:46,470 --> 00:33:47,200 I love it. Well, 512 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,160 let's listen to BPM from sugar VE thank you so much for joining me today. 513 00:33:51,330 --> 00:33:52,880 Oh, thanks for having me. 514 00:37:26,110 --> 00:37:29,410 And so we come to the end of another episode of Mikey PODD. 515 00:37:29,410 --> 00:37:31,530 Thanks so much for joining me. Thank you for listening. 516 00:37:31,750 --> 00:37:33,250 Now that I'm off of social media, 517 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:38,290 I might do a little extra bonus push for you to share this podcast with, uh, 518 00:37:38,410 --> 00:37:40,850 your friends, people that you think might like the show. 519 00:37:40,850 --> 00:37:43,970 Maybe tell a person or two about this. Uh, thank you. 520 00:37:43,970 --> 00:37:45,530 Did I already say thank you to sugar? Well, 521 00:37:45,530 --> 00:37:47,290 thank you again if I already did already. 522 00:37:47,470 --> 00:37:51,170 And I forgot to mention in the beginning of the show, I've opened up my, uh, 523 00:37:51,170 --> 00:37:55,530 discord server. Um, for everyone it's like a public server now. 524 00:37:55,530 --> 00:37:57,730 So if you're listening to the podcast and you're, uh, 525 00:37:57,860 --> 00:38:02,530 discord person just come us up by, there's really very little happening there. 526 00:38:02,530 --> 00:38:04,570 So it'd be nice for you to come and, and talk. 527 00:38:04,780 --> 00:38:07,690 It just feels like a better community type thing to do. 528 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,970 That's the type of thing I'm sort of headed toward while I am on my little 529 00:38:11,970 --> 00:38:13,170 social media break, 530 00:38:13,170 --> 00:38:16,890 which I should probably stop talking about because is that becoming more of an, 531 00:38:17,100 --> 00:38:17,730 uh, 532 00:38:17,730 --> 00:38:22,370 addiction than the addiction of social media talking about how I'm not 533 00:38:22,370 --> 00:38:26,290 addicted? That's really interesting. It really isn't. 534 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,660 Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.