Hello, and welcome to Mikey PODD podcast.
Episode 349 for September 15th, 2022.
Today's guest is composer, performer, sugar veil.
She'll be telling us all about high perform Fest a one day for now,
eclectic boundary, free music gathering that's happening in New York city.
We'll also listen to some of her music and we have a great chat about social
media. I've been wanting to talk to sugar on the podcast for a long time.
And those of you who've been listening for a long time might recall that she was
on one of the Mikey PODD live episodes, way back.
I'll put a link to that one in the show notes. I am your host, Michael Herron.
I'm a composer pianist, electronic musician storyteller based in New York city.
On this podcast. I have conversations with fellow creators,
use their creativity to change the world.
I've been sending this podcast years for 17 years. If you like what you hear,
subscribe using the colorful buttons in the sidebar and footer@mikeypodd.com or
you can just search Mikey PODD in your favorite podcast directory.
If you'd like to know more about me, stop by my website@michaelherron.com.
Hit me up on social media everywhere as at Michael Herron or email me Mikey
PODD, gmail.com. I'm trying so hard not to cough right now. Um, hello,
welcome to the show. Um, yeah, this is the check-in zone.
This is where I talk about what's going on in my world.
Y'all it's been a week off of Facebook. I, uh,
dis disabled. Isn't the word I, uh,
I put my account on hiatus and now today I'm gonna do it with every other social
media. Oh,
I should change that in the intro where I say you can find me on social media
everywhere. I'll turn it back on eventually,
but just being off Facebook for a week,
it felt like it was gonna be a big deal and it wasn't.
And I love it. So I've been doing a lot of other work.
I've been working behind the scenes on a lot of stuff.
There's been scraps on my, uh, web server,
a lot of work I need to do on my websites.
I finally finally connected all of the old episodes of Mikey PODD during one of
my updates, something screwed up and all of them became unattached.
So I had to go back and manually attach each one, but it's finally done.
And it was really cool. I went back through all of these 17 years of, uh,
entries kind of remembering the guests.
There was a period of time when I just did music. It was just a music podcast.
There was a period of time when I first started,
when it was sort of half journal, half interviews.
When I still lived in Texas, there was a lot.
So it was cool looking back there and also seeing some people that have been
listening ever since then,
when people used to leave comments on actual blog posts, um,
those were the days does anyone remember like I do. Uh, so anyway,
I feel like I'm really kind of getting things in place for what feels like
a kind of creative thing happening.
I'm working on learning some new synthesis techniques and, uh, yeah,
so it's kind of cool.
I'm feeling really energized and like things are moving for a change and I owe
it all to turning off Facebook. I mean, not there's some other factors as well,
but it's making a huge difference. So we should get into the interview. Um,
I do wanna first thank my subscribers on Patreon for powering this podcast.
These are people who subscribe for $5 or more a month and get special perks,
like tons of free downloads of my music and zines bonus pods.
We're getting close to 80 podcasts that are just bonuses that are only available
on Patreon. Um, and you'll have immediate access to all that stuff.
If you subscribe too, including this week's bonus episode,
which is gonna be something really cool.
I discovered while I was sorting through all this,
these random files that were up on Michael heron.com and mypad.com.
I found the old back in 2005,
I was asked by the national coalition to abolish the death penalty to podcast,
start a podcast for them. And it didn't go anywhere.
I can't remember what happened. Um,
but I thought those podcasts were lost for good, but the first two episodes.
And I think they were the only two episodes, um, were up there.
I found them like,
as I was rooting around in all these folders that needed to come down. Um,
so I'm gonna release one of those as a bonus podcast this week.
I'm really excited to share that. I wish I had some of the, the, um,
the graphics and whatnot that I did with that show. And honestly,
I don't even remember if I had any graphics.
There must have been like album art, but anyway, it's not there anymore.
Or is it maybe I can find it well for now.
Just know that that bonus I'm going on about this too much.
There will be a bonus podcast this week. That's the summary of that. Um,
and so before we get into the interview with sugar Vanil,
I would like to play some music for sugar Vanil. And this is like,
this piece of music is like bonus enough.
Like this is a really cool piece of music it's entitled. Um,
may we know our own strength and, uh, this is sugar van di.
No, no.
Ha.
That was sugar Vanil with may.
We know our own strength and sugar is here joining me now.
Thanks so much for joining me on the podcast. Thanks.
For having me.
But I've wanting to talk to you for a while and I just never did it.
I never reached out because so much of your social media take
has been really inspiring me to think more deeply about things.
But first I want to talk about, um, high perform Fest.
This is something new that you've started that, uh, is really exciting.
Actually. It's funny,
social media sort of like I had tweeted like I'm back in like 2018
I sort of like, you know,
I was really frustrated just with the gatekeepers,
like in my field in particular and contemporary music, new music,
just how like white it is, you know, mm-hmm and not, I mean, like,
I know there's diversity in terms of the artists,
but like in terms of who's making the decisions, not so much.
So I tweeted them, like, I wanna start something that's by us and for us.
And of course, like, you know, typical, you get all the hearts or whatever.
And then that idea like set for a while,
because I couldn't think of anything and I was busy and, and then I don't know.
I just was like, um, you know,
I should get a group of people together to think about this, not just, um,
you know, I wanna be more collaborative. So I got a group of composers together,
like on zoom because we couldn't meet up in person. Um,
and just like started brainstorming what we would dream of
together. Like what would, what we wanna see. So we start,
we talked about so many things. Oh, and those artists are, um,
I'm gonna name them in an alphabetical order.
we Waller, who's spearheading this first, uh, this first,
I guess, um, event with me, Tran Aaron cent.
And he Negron Janelle Lawrence and Walter Aparicio.
And I hope I haven't left anyone out. I think that was everyone. Um,
so we just dreamed,
dreamed things up and we talked about genre and how like genre is such a,
um, you know, it's just a way to like silo everyone. And it is,
I don't wanna just be like, and it's racist , but how,
there are so many racial implications, you know, when you,
when you separate genre. So we're trying to, you know, make a genre list and,
um, and then yeah, like it took, you know,
a long time again for you for this to even get off the ground. You know,
so for this first one, uh, we have three really awesome artists, um,
jazz drummer, Jerome Gilles, his band, um,
someone from the electronic music world. Um, and she's also sound designer,
Chloe Alexander Thompson and Jasmine Hern.
Who's an amazing dancer and also makes really dope music .
So that's really like a unique mix of people and it's on
September 25th at St. Mark's.
So much of that. I love, like I was reading the description.
I love the way the idea is, what did I write about this? The, oh,
it's your quote? Well,
from the website that you're erase erasing boundaries of genre and unify any
sound based art form, um, shaped by a high level of craft,
dedication and virtuosity,
but then it goes on to kind of describe the idea that those
words themselves are fluid. Right? Like, so it,
I,
I love the way that it's preventing new boundaries from being put up
from the description of what the thing is.
Am I I feel like I said that in a weird way. Yeah.
But does it make sense what I'm getting at?
Yeah, definitely. It's like, it's more,
I guess it's about humility ultimately for me,
like to acknowledge that that's just so subjective and I mean,
like we could have just written like hashtag stay on the, I guess, but ,
you know, it's, it's really about that. Like,
and the idea is that we're not always the same people curating mm-hmm
um, and that's another, like,
that's another idea pie in the sky thing is to decentralize that gatekeeper role
and by to do that,
you have to have other people making decisions,
you know, and it's gonna be such a, I mean,
it's a really small thing because we don't have, you know, a ton of funding.
Like for example, we had to start off with one concert. We, we don't have,
we can't plan an entire series yet, but yeah,
we're just trying to like put these seeds out there, you know,
so for the next one, hopefully it's not us,
it's someone else bringing other people in, into the fold.
It's really telling that it feels so unusual, right. To,
to start an organization that you're intending to not be
completely power of.
Which is so weird because I was, it was a complete opposite before that,
you know, with my, the ensemble I'm ending, it was a complete opposite.
It was so different. I was like really doing everything to,
I guess the trust is hard. I mean, I'm not gonna get into it,
but we are all basically projecting our traumas onto everything,
whether or not we're aware it, you know? And so I think that was a huge factor.
And so, you know, over the years,
I've just learned more and more about collaboration and what that means,
you know, which I guess it means different things to different people. Right.
Um, um, so yeah, it's, it's a really interesting thing,
you know, and the idea is to just also, for me,
I think is to remain vigilant of your own biases, you know,
mm-hmm and again, I think that's,
what's going to make a difference, like,
in terms of bringing other people in to make these choices of who's gonna be
part of this, I mean, open, open, like musical theater,
even like we had talked about this, like, you know, are we going to like,
be like, no, no, we won't .
Yeah.
You know, country? No, we won't say no.
Like if it's something that like will listen with, like, it says open ears,
like really listen mm-hmm . I mean,
I was listening to country like on accident last month as I'd Googled a phrase,
and then there was a song, like, it was, I was like Glu Googling, slow burden.
Cause this is how I've always described, like the way I've my career is.
And then like, you know, is it Casey? Musker I don't even know exactly I've.
Heard. Yeah. I think that's.
And I'm like, oh, this isn't bad. You know.
It's interesting that you're intentionally dropping the barriers in this
performance space. And also just within yourself,
it sounds like to like put down your own preconceived notions about discovering
this country music. Yeah. And, um, and making a space for it.
Yeah. I think it's also just a way to live. Like music might be like a,
you know, a little like microcosm of this idea, you know,
but we do it all the time with,
even with people like you see someone and you think, you know,
and that's cuz it's, this is how I've experienced my life.
People look at me and like take, you know,
they take one look and make all sorts of assumptions, you know? Or they, like,
in my case, like they've seen, they've like taken one interest of mine,
which is fashion mm-hmm and then like made all sorts of
assumptions and imposed, like whatever the health bullshit they want on me.
They don't know anything about me. Like, yeah.
Like you wouldn't guess that like,
like I get in the street fights when people mess with me and I usually win them,
like not necessarily fist fights, but I like scare people, you know? Like,
like no one, like I, I guess I just like, yeah. I just like,
I just project my own shit on all my shit. well, empathy.
I want empathy. So how do I bring empathy into this space? You know? Yeah.
Open someone, openness. How do I bring that here? I dunno.
Yeah. I wonder like when you were talking about, um,
sometimes I ask these questions and I worry that it's getting that I'm getting
too therapy ish. So feel free. It's.
It's all the rage right now.
Yeah.
And yet how, why are we still here?
Well, that's the thing, like, I'm going off on another side thing, but you know,
right now, especially in the world,
like there are a lot of things that are terrible, right?
Like a lot of things that are terrible. Um, and a lot of,
of 'em have been terrible for a long time and some of us just haven't paid
attention mm-hmm . But you know,
when I think about the type of work that you're doing and, and, uh,
with high perform in particular that you're, it,
it feels like, um,
a workshop for like what the world could be, you know? Like it,
it makes me feel like, oh yeah,
like in the midst of this kind of shit storm of the world,
there are people who are like, wait, what is it? How,
what would it look like to do this differently?
Yeah. Yeah. And exactly. And ideally, I mean, I,
if like, if we could, like, if we had funding,
I would've wanted to make it completely free, you know? Yeah. It's just, yeah,
we couldn't, but, um, yeah, exactly. I think that's such a, that's beautiful.
Like that's, that makes so much sense me and it, it really is.
I think what we're trying to do.
But with that in mind and the idea of like the way we bring our trauma,
this is the therapy part. we bring our, like,
we all just have a tendency to bring our trauma and our, you know,
our past and all of these things into our present and into our relationships and
our working environments.
Is there a way that you and the people that are you're working with here
make a space for that as you're also trying to not include it
does that.
Make sense? This has honestly been one of the best collaborations ever. Um,
Alicia's just amazing. Um, and I think, I don't know,
maybe I've become just a better collaborator after screwing up so many times,
you know? I mean,
I'm surprised some of these people are still friends with me oh, I mean,
but I mean, I will say like, um,
I do think I'm a very self-aware person and like, I'm also,
I will admit when I'm wrong. Mm-hmm , you know,
at least there's that, I think that was my same grace, but I think like,
I think just being so transparent, you know, I, I told,
I talked to Alicia about actually what my traumas were with working with people
mm-hmm , you know, and she just knowing that I think, you know,
probably helped. Um, and she kept, you know, she said more than once, you know,
I want you to know this isn't all on you. Like,
you're not the only one who has to do everything. And that, that helped so much.
So then I was able to also let go, you know, of things, like instead of being,
oh, don't worry about it. I'll do it. I'll do it. And.
Oh yeah.
Yeah. So, um, because I had been so let down in the past too, like,
like having to do most of the work, you know, and, and, you know,
it's like, yeah, granted, like, um, there was not a lot of money.
Sometimes you're, it's a passion project. And like, you know, people,
like there were pain in the ass admin things,
and none of us were getting like a salary or something.
So that also made it hard. But like, um,
but I think just being really transparent, like if I had,
if I was worried about something, I'd sometimes say like,
this has nothing to do with you. I just want, you know,
I'm like totally projecting all my shit. .
Yeah.
You know, know, I think that really helps. And also like, I,
sometimes you just crash and burn, like I did,
like with all these other collaborations. Right? Like,
and then you learn from them, hopefully if you're lucky,
I think so many people don't really, I'm gonna be completely Frank.
been a little arrogant, but for real, like, um, but you you're like,
okay, next time I gotta to do this, you know,
or next time this needs to be different.
Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. I think like,
I feel I'm on a different extreme of that where I just
don't collaborate cuz I'm too, like, I don't know how to do that, but I can see,
um, you know, where it's,
what I'm missing out on something by avoiding those kind of creative
relationships.
Oh yeah. You think so? I'm like, I don't know.
I'm like sometimes I really just wanna be all alone to know .
I think it's true, but I think there's also, you know, like places where,
you know, when I have worked with other people,
like with the director or something like that, when it's like, oh, this what,
it's good to have other people involved in your work to have a different
perspective and, and different ideas and helping, you know,
make connections that we notice on our own.
Yeah. I guess it helps to be really clear about who's doing what, you know,
mm-hmm and like, um, collaboration, honestly,
it doesn't people bank, it means zero hierarchy, like zero, zero.
Um, I would say with meanly, it's probably like that, but we're,
I think it's cuz we're both. So like, I don't wanna say type a, but like cool.
Got it. Get it done like that. But like, you know, sometimes let's say,
you know, if you can see a project, for example, mm-hmm, like,
it's okay to say like, yeah, I really am like,
like leading this and it doesn't and it means you're like,
it means you're like leading this, you know, it doesn't mean you are,
you're like gonna be complete bulldozer. It just means you're steering. Like,
so you're just steering the thing, you know?
It doesn't mean like you're stepping on people. Yeah.
So that's another thing get comfortable with, I think is, um,
being okay with that. Yeah. You know, mm-hmm.
so much learning in our worlds because learning in like
yeah.
So and so much nuance and uh, it's,
it's a lot like things and I'm even encountering things.
I never thought I'd encounter,
which I'm not gonna get into detail about cuz it's so gr but tiny things.
And you're just like, huh. Interesting.
I wanna talk a little bit about social media because unbeknownst to you you've
really like you made a post, it was months ago about stopping social media.
Um, which has shifted for you. I noticed, I think just yesterday. Yeah.
I was gonna say, you're gonna kill me, but I guess you already knew. Yeah.
But I knew,
but I think that's part of what is really interesting about the whole thing.
Um, so in a nutshell, and of course you can describe this better than I can.
Um, you, you chose to step away from social media,
which a lot of, especially for an artist, uh, independent artist,
it's often like something we perceive as our lifeline to
having an audience mm-hmm um, and it may or may not be,
and it, but it's definitely different from how we perceive it.
But, um, it was, it was really interesting to me because, uh,
part of what's gone on with me with social media is that it's become my,
um, avoidance technique for being an artist. You know,
instead of it's either, you know,
I spend a lot of time scrolling and having questionable
conversations with people who really are just into it to argue, you know,
like I really get into a lot of like nonsense energy that could be spent,
you know, doing other things. Um, and also like the fear of, you know,
like with the podcast, as an example,
I go in periods where I don't release the podcast as much.
And part of it is because it doesn't feel like I'm just releasing a podcast is
like releasing the podcast and oh,
I better put something like maybe some make some video that will promote it on
my Instagram reel.
Like it becomes this gigantic project that isn't even more about the thing. Um,
you talked about a lot of that so much more eloquently than I just did,
but where are you with all of that?
Um, I think that the break was definitely good.
Mm-hmm because for, for example, um, with the,
I did post yesterday and part of that is because it, you know, you know,
just full disclosure, like the, the series, the concert series is so new,
right. It doesn't have a mailing list yet. Right. It has no followers basically.
Cause it's so new. So I'm like, well I really need to help, you know,
help with this. The thing is like, I was able to just do the thing because,
and not look,
not check on how things were doing mm-hmm and before I would just
keep refreshing, you know, like the hard part,
like to see how it got,
how it did and I'm not gonna look until like next Wednesday because that's,
that's my thing. It's like, I'm only gonna go once a week and not even like,
and once means once, like, it doesn't mean like you get to go,
I get to go on for the whole day. It's like just once. And,
but it doesn't feel bad and I'm not tempted because I took all this time off.
Um, and honestly like, I mean, I, I know I put it in a caption,
but I'll say it here too. Like it really, I mean, it's, I'll say it sucks.
Like it's, it's like linked,
it is LinkedIn for artists mm-hmm and I do think back to,
and I'd written about it too, but there are times when it's like,
I got work that way and you know,
it's like other artists aren't curating like the way I am with this series.
And then, you know, you know,
you just it's basically like casting like wishes into wishing. Well,
I really see it that way. um, but also it's, it's a place.
I, I was also thinking, you know, I did say keep up my blog,
but I don't have time for that shit. Like I don't have time, um,
to like make a post on my blog and like little snippets,
um, of video it's like, where do you put that? You know, I'm like,
there are some cool stuff I've done that isn't like fully produced. Um,
you know, like archival footage. I'm like, where do I put that?
It's there where it gives people an idea, you know? So it's like, it's really,
it really is a work thing. But, um,
I think I've been able to separate it from like validation thing.
And the other thing is I did notice it, you know,
sometimes some friends wouldn't text me as often as they used to.
While you were on your.
Social media. Like some of my closest friends. Yeah. Yeah. And like,
I'm just like, this is how people stay in touch and then it,
and I don't have to constantly be posting, but it's like, yeah.
Soon as I posted three people texted.
Me when they saw that your post.
. Yeah. It's just funny. It's like people are, I'm like, yep. I,
I called it, you know, there's something easy about it.
I guess people are too shy to email. If they're interested in reaching out,
like they're more comfortable here. Yeah. For better or for worse. I mean,
it's not really that good of a thing. I don't think it's not terrible thing,
but it's, it's somewhere in the middle, I guess. So it does,
it is an open line of communication for people. Like they,
there people are, are so shy. I think.
Thinking about this stuff, it's just, so.
Am I an overthinker? Yeah.
No, well, I do the same thing, but , you're like my,
my overthinking just feels more like foggy when I'm talking to you. I'm like,
oh, okay. Like I'm finding some direction for the things, you know,
it it's such a mixed blessing.
It feels weird to say just the existence of social media and the way that it's
made us so connected. And you know, as artists,
it's so much easier to like get our work in front of someone.
Um,
but there's such a interesting cost and now we're in this place where it feels
like we have to do it.
I know. And it, it does feel like I have to do it cuz it's like, I'm not gonna,
you know, I'll be totally honest. It's like, yeah, I wrote that, you know,
like I don't think I have the privilege to leave, but it's like,
what does privilege mean? Like fame? Sure. Yeah, because it's not fame. I don't,
it's not fame that I want. It's like, I want an, I want people,
I want an audience, you know, mm-hmm and um,
it's just the mailing list thing is very slow.
It's a slow going thing. And um, it's like,
I mean,
I guess social is just like a little reminder and I know people would be like,
yeah, do like you have to have be visible and this, this and this. It's like,
yeah, no shit. Except that you're constantly looking at it.
If you're constantly looking at it, like that's the trade off.
So I've trained myself to not constantly look at it. That's a difference.
You know, it's like, I feel like it's a, it's a,
there is a potential there that like I have to tap into without,
but I found a way to do it. So it's not taking over my entire life. Like it was.
It's interesting to see your process with it because you have a process with it.
And I've kind, kind of like, I,
I'm trying to figure out where my space is with all of these things too. Um,
so, uh, yeah. I don't know where that's gonna wind up.
Do you have some other performances coming up?
What else can people go and see you doing well?
I'm dancing, um, in someone else's piece, um,
for this amazing choreographer that I dance for named Emily Johnson
and the company is called, uh, Emily Johnson catalyst. And, um,
it's really awesome. And it's going to premier at the broad in LA,
but it'll premiere in New York at Nyla in October.
And what is Nyla? I don't think I know what that is.
Oh, uh, New York live arts it's in Chelsea.
Mm-hmm oh.
Cool. Like T Jones space.
Um-huh so that's really amazing. It really it's about,
you know, breaking down the structures and um,
institutional structures and uh it's yeah.
Nice thing in it too. so dance in it. Really great.
I love it.
Um, that, but it's not your music. It's a different composer.
Yeah. It's Raven shaone actually. Okay. He composed the music.
Um, he's amazing.
He just won the Pulitzer and then also won a Grammy this year.
Wow.
Yeah. Yeah. His music is so cool.
You're in the process of creating an album mm-hmm that I know is
in heavily in, uh, a work in progress,
right?
Yeah. I've been trying to, I thought I was gonna get it done in 2020.
I'm like ha ha. That's funny. Oh.
Yeah.
It's for, um, voice piano and electronics and um,
I think I'm gonna call it tunnel vision.
It was gonna be called late bloomer at first, cuz that's me. Uhhuh,
but now it's called, I think it's called tunnel vision and I'm hoping,
I'm hoping that'll get released in like March or April.
Um oh, cool. That's not too far off.
I know. So I gotta like get a move on it. Huh? .
Yeah, yeah. Uh, well, it's been really good to talk to you.
Me too.
Before we wrap it up, I wanna make sure like what where's like central
your website sugar. Oh.
Yeah, yeah. And my newsletter. Um, I, um, yeah,
I send one to two a month.
I might send one also like the day before a concert,
but I try not to do too much.
Yeah. You know? Um, yeah,
I'll put I'll at least I'll put definitely a link to your website and it's easy.
It's right there on the front.
Isn't it to sign up for the newsletter mm-hmm yeah, yeah.
Yeah. I should also redo my website, but that's a whole other thing.
Uh, you know,
I've been working on my website and a lot of times I've looked at your website
for how you have things organized. Oh really? Oh yeah. Let's I think cuz we,
you, you do a lot of different things and I do too,
and it often feels overwhelming to try to like figure out how to present that on
one website.
So it's been kind of cool to look at yours and see what you've done.
Yeah. Glad it's helpful. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Um, alright, well thanks so much for, oh,
we're gonna listen to one more track. Oh. But we haven't chosen it yet.
oh, maybe let's do, um, BPM it's short.
The other one is like 17 minutes.
Perfect.
Um, and it's BPM, beautiful piano music was for my album,
but it also ended up being for my friends fashion film.
Okay.
Yeah. So it's, it's just, it's really like,
I guess it's like a love letter to the piano in a way.
And it's also a joke a little bit because it's like, I mean,
to me it's so personal. It's like, am I allowed to write music like this?
Like straight up, wanna be show pan music as.
As opposed to something more quote unquote experimental or new musicy yeah.
Yeah.
Or out there and also beautiful piano music I think is one of the most searched
things on Spotify. So I thought that was funny.
I love it. Well,
let's listen to BPM from sugar VE thank you so much for joining me today.
Oh, thanks for having me.
And so we come to the end of another episode of Mikey PODD.
Thanks so much for joining me. Thank you for listening.
Now that I'm off of social media,
I might do a little extra bonus push for you to share this podcast with, uh,
your friends, people that you think might like the show.
Maybe tell a person or two about this. Uh, thank you.
Did I already say thank you to sugar? Well,
thank you again if I already did already.
And I forgot to mention in the beginning of the show, I've opened up my, uh,
discord server. Um, for everyone it's like a public server now.
So if you're listening to the podcast and you're, uh,
discord person just come us up by, there's really very little happening there.
So it'd be nice for you to come and, and talk.
It just feels like a better community type thing to do.
That's the type of thing I'm sort of headed toward while I am on my little
social media break,
which I should probably stop talking about because is that becoming more of an,
uh,
addiction than the addiction of social media talking about how I'm not
addicted? That's really interesting. It really isn't.
Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.