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[TEASER]

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[MUSIC PLAYS UNDER DIALOGUE]

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AKSHAY NAMBI: For me, research is just not about&nbsp;
pushing the boundaries of the knowledge. It's&nbsp;&nbsp;

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about ensuring that these advancements translate&nbsp;
to meaningful impact on the ground. So, yes,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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the big goals that guide most of my&nbsp;
work is twofold. One, how do we build&nbsp;&nbsp;

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technology that's scaled to benefit large&nbsp;
populations? And two, at the same time,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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I'm motivated by the challenge of tackling complex&nbsp;
problems. That provides opportunity to explore,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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learn, and also create something new,&nbsp;
and that's what keeps me excited.

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[TEASER ENDS]

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CHRIS STETKIEWICZ: You're listening to Ideas, a&nbsp;
Microsoft Research Podcast that dives deep into&nbsp;&nbsp;

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the world of technology research and the profound&nbsp;
questions behind the code. In this series, we'll&nbsp;&nbsp;

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explore the technologies that are shaping our&nbsp;
future and the big ideas that propel them forward.

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[MUSIC FADES]

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I'm your guest host, Chris Stetkiewicz. Today,&nbsp;
I'm talking to Akshay Nambi. Akshay is a principal&nbsp;&nbsp;

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researcher at Microsoft Research. His work lies&nbsp;
at the intersection of systems, AI, and machine&nbsp;&nbsp;

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learning with a focus on designing, deploying,&nbsp;
and scaling AI systems to solve compelling&nbsp;&nbsp;

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real-world problems. Akshay's research extends&nbsp;
across education, agriculture, transportation,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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and energy. He is currently working on enhancing&nbsp;
the quality and reliability of AI systems by&nbsp;&nbsp;

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addressing critical challenges such as reasoning,&nbsp;
grounding, and managing complex queries.

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Akshay, welcome to the podcast.

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AKSHAY NAMBI: Thanks for having me.

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STETKIEWICZ: I'd like to begin by&nbsp;
asking you to tell us your origin&nbsp;&nbsp;

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story. How did you get started on&nbsp;
your path? Was there a big idea or&nbsp;&nbsp;

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experience that captured your imagination or&nbsp;
motivated you to do what you're doing today?

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NAMBI: If I look back, my journey into research&nbsp;
wasn't a straight line. It was more about&nbsp;&nbsp;

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discovering my passion through some unexpected&nbsp;
opportunities and also finding purpose along&nbsp;&nbsp;

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the way. So before I started with my undergrad&nbsp;
studies, I was very interested in electronics&nbsp;&nbsp;

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and systems. My passion for electronics, kind&nbsp;
of, started when I was in school. I was more&nbsp;&nbsp;

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like an average student, not a nerd or not too&nbsp;
curious, but I was always tinkering around,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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doing things, building stuff, and playing with&nbsp;
gadgets and that, kind of, made me very keen on&nbsp;&nbsp;

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electronics and putting things together, and that&nbsp;
was my passion. But sometimes things don't go as&nbsp;&nbsp;

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planned. So I didn't get into the college which I&nbsp;
had hoped to join for electronics, so I ended up&nbsp;&nbsp;

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pursuing computer science, which wasn't too bad&nbsp;
either. So during my final year of bachelor's,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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I had to do a final semester project, which&nbsp;
turned out to be a very pivotal moment. And&nbsp;&nbsp;

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that's when I got to know this institute called&nbsp;
Indian Institute of Science (IISc), which is a top&nbsp;&nbsp;

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research institute in India and also globally. And&nbsp;
I had a chance to work on a project there. And it&nbsp;&nbsp;

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was my first real exposure to open-ended research,&nbsp;
right, so I remember ... where we were trying to&nbsp;&nbsp;

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build a solution that helped to efficiently&nbsp;
construct an ontology for a specific domain,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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which simply means that we were building&nbsp;
systems to help users uncover relationships&nbsp;&nbsp;

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in the data and allow them to query it more&nbsp;
efficiently, right. And it was super exciting&nbsp;&nbsp;

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for me to design and build something new. And that&nbsp;
experience made me realize that I wanted to pursue&nbsp;&nbsp;

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research further. And right after that project,&nbsp;
I decided to explore research opportunities,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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which led me to join Indian Institute of&nbsp;
Science again as a research assistant.

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STETKIEWICZ: So what made you want to take the&nbsp;&nbsp;

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skills you were developing and&nbsp;
apply them to a research career?

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NAMBI: So interestingly when I joined IISc,&nbsp;
the professor I worked with specialized in&nbsp;&nbsp;

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electronics, so things come back, so something&nbsp;
I had always been passionate about. And I was&nbsp;&nbsp;

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the only computer science graduate in the lab at&nbsp;
that time with others being electronic engineers,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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and I didn't even know how to solder. But the lab&nbsp;
environment was super encouraging, collaborative,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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so I, kind of, caught up very quickly. In that&nbsp;
lab, basically, I worked on several projects in&nbsp;&nbsp;

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the emerging fields of embedded device and&nbsp;
energy harvesting systems. Specifically,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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we were designing systems that could harvest&nbsp;
energy from sources like sun, hydro, and even&nbsp;&nbsp;

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RF (radio frequency) signals. And my role was kind&nbsp;
of twofold. One, I designed circuits and systems&nbsp;&nbsp;

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to make energy harvesting more efficient so that&nbsp;
you can store this energy. And then I also wrote&nbsp;&nbsp;

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programs, software, to ensure that the harvested&nbsp;
energy can be used efficiently. For instance,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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as we harvest some of this energy, you want&nbsp;
to have your programs run very quickly so that&nbsp;&nbsp;

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you are able to sense the data, send it to the&nbsp;
server in an efficient way. And one of the most&nbsp;&nbsp;

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exciting projects I worked during that time was on&nbsp;
data-driven agriculture. So this was back in 2008,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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2009, right, where we developed an embedded system&nbsp;
device with sensors to monitor the agricultural&nbsp;&nbsp;

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fields, collecting data like soil moisture, soil&nbsp;
temperature. And that was sent to the agronomists&nbsp;&nbsp;

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who were able to analyze this data and provide&nbsp;
feedback to farmers. In many remote areas, still&nbsp;&nbsp;

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access to power is a huge challenge. So we used&nbsp;
many of the technologies we were developing in the&nbsp;&nbsp;

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lab, specifically energy harvesting techniques,&nbsp;
to power these sensors and devices in the rural&nbsp;&nbsp;

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farms, and that's when I really got to see&nbsp;
firsthand how technology could help people's&nbsp;&nbsp;

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lives, particularly in rural settings. And that's&nbsp;
what, kind of, stood out in my experience at IISc,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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right, was that it was [the] end-to-end nature&nbsp;
of the work. And it was not just writing code or&nbsp;&nbsp;

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designing circuits. It was about identifying the&nbsp;
real-world problems, solving them efficiently,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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and deploying solutions in the field.&nbsp;
And this cemented my passion for creating&nbsp;&nbsp;

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technology that solves real-world problems,&nbsp;
and that's what keeps me driving even today.

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STETKIEWICZ: And as you're thinking about those&nbsp;
problems that you want to try and solve, where did&nbsp;&nbsp;

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you look for, for inspiration? It sounds like some&nbsp;
of these are happening right there in your home.

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NAMBI: That's right. Growing up and living in&nbsp;
India, I've been surrounded by these, kind of,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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many challenges. And these are not distant&nbsp;
problems. These are right in front of us.&nbsp;&nbsp;

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And some of them are quite literally outside&nbsp;
the door. So being here in India provides&nbsp;&nbsp;

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a unique opportunity to tackle some of the&nbsp;
pressing real-world challenges in agriculture,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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education, or in road safety, where even small&nbsp;
advancements can create significant impact.

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STETKIEWICZ: So how would you describe your&nbsp;&nbsp;

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research philosophy? Do you have&nbsp;
some big goals that guide you?

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NAMBI: Right, as I mentioned, right, my research&nbsp;
philosophy is mainly rooted in solving real-world&nbsp;&nbsp;

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problems through end-to-end innovation. For me,&nbsp;
research is just not about pushing the boundaries&nbsp;&nbsp;

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of the knowledge. It's about ensuring that these&nbsp;
advancements translate to meaningful impact on&nbsp;&nbsp;

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the ground, right. So, yes, the big goals that&nbsp;
guide most of my work is twofold. One, how do&nbsp;&nbsp;

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we build technology that's scaled to benefit&nbsp;
large populations? And two, at the same time,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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I'm motivated by the challenge of tackling complex&nbsp;
problems. That provides opportunity to explore,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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learn, and also create something new.&nbsp;
And that's what keeps me excited.

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STETKIEWICZ: So let's talk a little bit about&nbsp;
your journey at Microsoft Research. I know you&nbsp;&nbsp;

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began as an intern, and some of the initial&nbsp;
work you did was focused on computer vision,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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road safety, energy efficiency. Tell&nbsp;
us about some of those projects.

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NAMBI: As I was nearing the completion of my&nbsp;
PhD, I was eager to look for opportunities&nbsp;&nbsp;

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in industrial labs, and Microsoft Research&nbsp;
obviously stood out as an exciting opportunity.&nbsp;&nbsp;

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And additionally, the fact that Microsoft Research&nbsp;
India was in my hometown, Bangalore, made it even&nbsp;&nbsp;

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more appealing. So when I joined as an intern,&nbsp;
I worked together with Venkat Padmanabhan,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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who now leads the lab, and we started this&nbsp;
project called HAMS, which stands for Harnessing&nbsp;&nbsp;

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AutoMobiles for Safety. As you know, road&nbsp;
safety is a major public health issue globally,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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responsible for almost 1.35 million fatalities&nbsp;
annually and with the situation being even more&nbsp;&nbsp;

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severe in countries like India. For instance,&nbsp;
there are estimates that there's a life lost&nbsp;&nbsp;

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on the road every four minutes in India. When&nbsp;
analyzing the factors which affect road safety,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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we saw mainly three elements. One, the&nbsp;
vehicle. Second, the infrastructure.&nbsp;&nbsp;

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And then the driver. Among these, the driver&nbsp;
plays the most critical role in many incidents,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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whether it's over-speeding, driving without&nbsp;
seat belts, drowsiness, fatigue, any of these,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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right. And this realization motivated us to focus&nbsp;
on driver monitoring, which led to the development&nbsp;&nbsp;

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of HAMS. In a nutshell, HAMS is basically a&nbsp;
smartphone-based system where you're mounting&nbsp;&nbsp;

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your smartphone on a windshield of a vehicle&nbsp;
to monitor both the driver and the driving in&nbsp;&nbsp;

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real time with the goal of improving road safety.&nbsp;
Basically, it observes key aspects such as where&nbsp;&nbsp;

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the driver is looking, whether they are distracted&nbsp;
or fatigued, while also considering the external&nbsp;&nbsp;

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driving environment, because we truly believe&nbsp;
to improve road safety, we need to understand&nbsp;&nbsp;

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not just the driver's action but also the&nbsp;
context in which they are driving. For example,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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if the smartphone's accelerometer detects sharp&nbsp;
braking, the system would automatically check the&nbsp;&nbsp;

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distance to the vehicle in the front using&nbsp;
the rear camera and whether the driver was&nbsp;&nbsp;

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distracted or fatigued using the front camera.&nbsp;
And this holistic approach ensures a more accurate&nbsp;&nbsp;

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and comprehensive assessment of the driving&nbsp;
behavior, enabling a more meaningful feedback.

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STETKIEWICZ: So that sounds like a system&nbsp;
that's got several moving parts to it. And&nbsp;&nbsp;

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I imagine you had some technical challenges you&nbsp;
had to deal with there. Can you talk about that?

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NAMBI: One of our guiding principles in HAMS&nbsp;
was to use commodity, off-the-shelf smartphone&nbsp;&nbsp;

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devices, right. This should be affordable, in the&nbsp;
range of $100 to $200, so that you can just take&nbsp;&nbsp;

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out regular smartphones and enable this driver&nbsp;
and driving monitoring. And that led to handling&nbsp;&nbsp;

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several technical challenges. For instance, we had&nbsp;
to develop efficient computer vision algorithms&nbsp;&nbsp;

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that could run locally on the device with cheap&nbsp;
smartphone processing units while still performing&nbsp;&nbsp;

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very well at low-light conditions. We wrote&nbsp;
multiple papers and developed many of the novel&nbsp;&nbsp;

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algorithms which we implemented on very low-cost&nbsp;
smartphones. And once we had such a monitoring&nbsp;&nbsp;

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system, right, you can imagine there’s several&nbsp;
deployment opportunities, starting from fleet&nbsp;&nbsp;

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monitoring to even training new drivers, right.&nbsp;
However, one application we hadn't originally&nbsp;&nbsp;

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envisioned but turned out to be its most impactful&nbsp;
use case even today is automated driver's&nbsp;&nbsp;

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license testing. As you know, before you get a&nbsp;
license, a driver is supposed to pass a test,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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but what happens in many places, including&nbsp;
India, is that licenses are issued with very&nbsp;&nbsp;

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minimal or no actual testing, leading to unsafe&nbsp;
and untrained drivers on the road. At the same&nbsp;&nbsp;

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time as we were working on HAMS, Indian government&nbsp;
were looking at introducing technology to make&nbsp;&nbsp;

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testing more transparent and also automated. So&nbsp;
we worked with the right set of partners, and we&nbsp;&nbsp;

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demonstrated to the government that HAMS could&nbsp;
actually completely automate the entire license&nbsp;&nbsp;

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testing process. So we first deployed this system&nbsp;
in Dehradun RTO (Regional Transport Office)—which&nbsp;&nbsp;

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is the equivalent of a DMV in the US—in 2019,&nbsp;
working very closely with RTO officials to define&nbsp;&nbsp;

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what should be some of the evaluation criteria,&nbsp;
right. Some of these would be very simple like,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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oh, is it the same candidate who is taking&nbsp;
the test who actually registered for the test,&nbsp;&nbsp;

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right? And whether they are wearing seat belts.&nbsp;
Did they scan their mirrors before taking a left&nbsp;&nbsp;

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turn and how well they performed in tasks&nbsp;
like reverse parking and things like that.

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STETKIEWICZ: So what's been the&nbsp;
government response to that? Have&nbsp;&nbsp;

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they embraced it or deployed it in a wider extent?

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NAMBI: Yes, yes. So after the deployment in&nbsp;
Dehradun in 2019, we actually open sourced&nbsp;&nbsp;

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the entire HAMS technology and our partners are&nbsp;
now working with several state governments and&nbsp;&nbsp;

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scaled HAMS to several states in India. And as&nbsp;
of today, we have around 28 RTOs where HAMS is&nbsp;&nbsp;

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actually being deployed. And the pass rate of&nbsp;
such license test is just 60% as compared to&nbsp;&nbsp;

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90-plus percent with manual testing. That's the&nbsp;
extensive rigor the system brings in. And now what&nbsp;&nbsp;

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excites me is after nearly five years later, we&nbsp;
are now taking the next step in this project where&nbsp;&nbsp;

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we are now evaluating the long-term impact of this&nbsp;
intervention on driving behavior and road safety.&nbsp;&nbsp;

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So we are collaborating with Professor Michael&nbsp;
Kremer, who is a Nobel laureate and professor at&nbsp;&nbsp;

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University of Chicago, and his team to study how&nbsp;
this technology has influenced driving patterns&nbsp;&nbsp;

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and accident rates over time. So this focus on&nbsp;
closing the loop and moving beyond just deployment&nbsp;&nbsp;

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in the field to actually measuring the real&nbsp;
impact, right, is something that truly excites&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:12:36.880 --> 00:12:42.280
me and that makes research at Microsoft is very&nbsp;
unique. And that is actually one of the reasons&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:12:42.280 --> 00:12:47.160
why I joined Microsoft Research as a full-time&nbsp;
after my internship, and this unique flexibility&nbsp;&nbsp;

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to work on real-world problems, develop novel&nbsp;
research ideas, and actually collaborate with&nbsp;&nbsp;

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partners both internally and externally to deploy&nbsp;
at scale is something that is very unique here.

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STETKIEWICZ: So have you actually received&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:13:00.160 --> 00:13:04.140
any evidence that the project is&nbsp;
working? Is driving getting safer?

00:13:04.140 --> 00:13:09.080
NAMBI: Yes, these are very early analysis, and&nbsp;
there are very positive insights we are getting&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:13.680
from that. Soon we will be releasing a white&nbsp;
paper on our study on this long-term impact.

00:13:13.680 --> 00:13:18.080
STETKIEWICZ: That’s great. I look forward to&nbsp;
that one. So you've also done some interesting&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:23.000
work involving the Internet of Things, with&nbsp;
an emphasis on making it more reliable and&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:26.960
practical. So for those in our audience&nbsp;
who may not know, the Internet of Things,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:32.880
or IoT, is a network that includes billions&nbsp;
of devices and sensors in things like smart&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:13:32.880 --> 00:13:37.560
thermostats and fitness trackers. So talk&nbsp;
a little bit about your work in this area.

00:13:37.560 --> 00:13:42.840
NAMBI: Right, so IoT, as you know, is already&nbsp;
transforming several industries with billions&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:47.920
of sensors being deployed in areas like&nbsp;
industrial monitoring, manufacturing,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:13:47.920 --> 00:13:53.160
agriculture, smart buildings, and also air&nbsp;
pollution monitoring. And if you think about it,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:13:53.160 --> 00:13:58.720
these sensors provide critical data that&nbsp;
businesses rely for decision making. However,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:04.160
a fundamental challenge is ensuring that the&nbsp;
data collected from these sensors is actually&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:14:04.160 --> 00:14:10.640
reliable. If the data is faulty, it can lead&nbsp;
to poor decisions and inefficiencies. And the&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:14:10.640 --> 00:14:15.760
challenge is that these sensor failures are&nbsp;
always not obvious. What I mean by that is&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:14:15.760 --> 00:14:21.440
when a sensor stops working, it always doesn't&nbsp;
stop sending data, but it often continues to&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:26.160
send some data which appear to be normal.&nbsp;
And that's one of the biggest problems,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:14:26.160 --> 00:14:31.560
right. So detecting these errors is non-trivial&nbsp;
because the faulty sensors can mimic real-world&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:14:31.560 --> 00:14:36.840
working data, and traditional solutions like&nbsp;
deploying redundant sensors or even manually&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:42.560
inspecting them are very expensive, labor&nbsp;
intensive, and also sometimes infeasible,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:14:42.560 --> 00:14:48.960
especially for remote deployments. Our goal in&nbsp;
this work was to develop a simple and efficient&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:54.480
way to remotely monitor the health of the IoT&nbsp;
sensors. So what we did was we hypothesized&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:59.480
that most sensor failures occurred due to the&nbsp;
electronic malfunctions. It could be either&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:04.960
due to short circuits or component degradation&nbsp;
or due to environmental factors such as heat,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:11.000
humidity, or pollution. Since these failures&nbsp;
originate within the sensor hardware itself,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:16.360
we saw an opportunity to leverage some of the&nbsp;
basic electronic principles to create a novel&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:21.520
solution. The core idea was to develop a way&nbsp;
to automatically generate a fingerprint for&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:15:21.520 --> 00:15:26.960
each sensor. And by fingerprint, I mean the unique&nbsp;
electrical characteristic exhibited by a properly&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:32.960
working sensor. We built a system that could&nbsp;
devise these fingerprints for different types&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:39.040
of sensors, allowing us to detect failures purely&nbsp;
based on the sensors internal characteristics,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:15:39.040 --> 00:15:44.320
that is the fingerprint, and even without looking&nbsp;
at the data it produces. Essentially what it means&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:51.340
now is that we were able to tag each sensor data&nbsp;
with a reliability score, ensuring verifiability.

00:15:51.340 --> 00:15:54.320
STETKIEWICZ: So how does that&nbsp;
technology get deployed in the&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:57.720
real world? Is there an application&nbsp;
where it's being put to work today?

00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:02.760
NAMBI: Yes, this technology, we worked&nbsp;
together with Azure IoT and open-sourced it&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:16:02.760 --> 00:16:08.200
where there were several opportunities and several&nbsp;
companies took the solution into their systems,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:13.280
including air pollution monitoring, smart&nbsp;
buildings, industrial monitoring. The one&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:16:13.280 --> 00:16:17.600
which I would like to talk about today is about&nbsp;
air pollution monitoring. As you know, air&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:23.160
pollution is a major challenge in many parts of&nbsp;
the world, especially in India. And traditionally,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:16:23.160 --> 00:16:29.360
air quality monitoring relies on these expensive&nbsp;
fixed sensors, which provide limited coverage.&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:34.360
On the other hand, there is a rich body of&nbsp;
work on low-cost sensors, which can offer&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:38.800
wider deployment. Like, you can put these sensors&nbsp;
on a bus or a vehicle and have it move around&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:16:38.800 --> 00:16:43.240
the entire city, where you can get much more&nbsp;
fine-grained, accurate picture on the ground.&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:48.680
But these are often unreliable because these are&nbsp;
low-cost sensors and have reliability issues. So&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:16:48.680 --> 00:16:53.040
we collaborated with several startups who were&nbsp;
developing these low-cost air pollution sensors&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:16:53.040 --> 00:16:57.760
who were finding it very challenging to gain&nbsp;
trust because one of the main concerns was the&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:16:57.760 --> 00:17:03.480
accuracy of the data from low-cost sensors. So our&nbsp;
solution seamlessly integrated with these sensors,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:07.320
which enabled verification of the data&nbsp;
quality coming out from these low-cost&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:17:07.320 --> 00:17:12.360
air pollution sensors. So this bridged the&nbsp;
trust gap, allowing government agencies&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:17:12.360 --> 00:17:17.420
to initiate large-scale pilots using low-cost&nbsp;
sensors for fine-grain air-quality monitoring.

00:17:17.420 --> 00:17:21.520
STETKIEWICZ: So as we're talking about&nbsp;
evolving technology, large language models,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:17:21.520 --> 00:17:26.480
or LLMs, are also enabling big changes, and&nbsp;
they're not theoretical. They're happening&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:30.920
today. And you've been working on LLMs&nbsp;
and their applicability to real-world&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:34.480
problems. Can you talk about your work&nbsp;
there and some of the latest releases?

00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:41.040
NAMBI: So when ChatGPT was first released, I,&nbsp;
like many people, was very skeptical. However,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:17:41.040 --> 00:17:46.600
I was also curious both of how it worked and,&nbsp;
more importantly, whether it could accelerate&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:17:46.600 --> 00:17:52.640
solutions to real-world problems. That led to&nbsp;
the exploration of LLMs in education, where&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:57.840
we fundamentally asked this question, can AI help&nbsp;
improve educational outcomes? And this was one of&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:17:57.840 --> 00:18:03.320
the key questions which led to the development&nbsp;
of Shiksha copilot, which is a genAI-powered&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:18:03.320 --> 00:18:08.280
assistant designed to support teachers in their&nbsp;
daily work, starting from helping them to create&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:18:08.280 --> 00:18:12.640
personalized learning experience, design&nbsp;
assignments, generate hands-on activities,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:18.240
and even more. Teachers today universally face&nbsp;
several challenges, from time management to lesson&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:24.040
planning. And our goal with Shiksha was to empower&nbsp;
them to significantly reduce the time spent on&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:18:24.040 --> 00:18:28.920
this task. For instance, lesson planning,&nbsp;
which traditionally took about 60 minutes,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:34.000
can now be completed in just five minutes using&nbsp;
the Shiksha copilot. And what makes Shiksha unique&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:39.200
is that it's completely grounded in the local&nbsp;
curriculum and the learning objectives, ensuring&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:44.640
that the AI-generated content aligns very well&nbsp;
with the pedagogical best practices. The system&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:49.600
actually supports multilingual interactions,&nbsp;
multimodal capabilities, and also integration&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:18:49.600 --> 00:18:54.240
with external knowledge base, making it very&nbsp;
highly adaptable for different curriculums.&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:58.720
Initially, many teachers were skeptical. Some&nbsp;
feared this would limit their creativity.&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:18:59.600 --> 00:19:04.000
However, as they began starting to use Shiksha,&nbsp;
they realized that it didn't replace their&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:09.520
expertise, but rather amplified it, enabling&nbsp;
them to do work faster and more efficiently.

00:19:09.520 --> 00:19:13.360
STETKIEWICZ: So, Akshay, the last time&nbsp;
you and I talked about Shiksha copilot,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:19:13.360 --> 00:19:17.600
it was very much in the pilot phase and the&nbsp;
teachers were just getting their hands on it.&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:19:17.600 --> 00:19:21.060
So it sounds like, though, you've gotten some&nbsp;
pretty good feedback from them since then.

00:19:21.060 --> 00:19:25.200
NAMBI: Yes, so when we were discussing, we&nbsp;
were doing this six-month pilot with 50-plus&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:30.720
teachers where we gathered overwhelming positive&nbsp;
feedback on how technologies are helping teachers&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:34.720
to reduce time in their lesson planning.&nbsp;
And in fact, they were using the system so&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:39.440
much that they really enjoyed working with&nbsp;
Shiksha copilot where they were able to do&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:43.960
more things with much less time, right.&nbsp;
And with a lot of feedback from teachers,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:49.480
we have improved Shiksha copilot over the past few&nbsp;
months. And starting this academic year, we have&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:54.480
already deployed Shiksha to 1,000-plus teachers in&nbsp;
Karnataka. This is with close collaboration with&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:58.640
our partners in … with the Sikshana Foundation&nbsp;
and also with the government of Karnataka.&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:19:59.280 --> 00:20:04.200
And the response has been already incredibly&nbsp;
encouraging. And looking ahead, we are actually&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:09.000
focusing on again, closing this loop, right, and&nbsp;
measuring the impact on the ground, where we are&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:13.760
doing a lot of studies with the teachers to&nbsp;
understand not just improving efficiency of&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:20:13.760 --> 00:20:20.160
the teachers but also measuring how AI-generated&nbsp;
content enriched by teachers is actually enhancing&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:24.560
student learning objectives. So that's the study&nbsp;
we are conducting, which hopefully will close this&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:20:24.560 --> 00:20:30.020
loop and understand our original question that,&nbsp;
can AI actually help improve educational outcomes?

00:20:30.020 --> 00:20:34.560
STETKIEWICZ: And is the deployment&nbsp;
primarily in rural areas, or does&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:20:34.560 --> 00:20:37.900
it include urban centers, or what's the target?

00:20:37.900 --> 00:20:41.760
NAMBI: So the current deployment with&nbsp;
1,000 teachers is a combination of&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:20:41.760 --> 00:20:46.040
both rural and urban public schools.&nbsp;
These are covering both English medium&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:20:46.040 --> 00:20:51.180
and Kannada medium teaching schools&nbsp;
with grades from Class 5 to Class 10.

00:20:51.180 --> 00:20:56.320
STETKIEWICZ: Great. So Shiksha was focused on&nbsp;
helping teachers and making their jobs easier,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:20:56.320 --> 00:20:58.880
but I understand you're also&nbsp;
working on some opportunities&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:02.420
to use AI to help students&nbsp;
succeed. Can you talk about that?

00:21:02.420 --> 00:21:08.480
NAMBI: So as you know, LLMs are still evolving and&nbsp;
inherently they are fragile, and deploying them in&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:13.360
real-world settings, especially in education,&nbsp;
presents a lot of challenges. With Shiksha,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:21:13.360 --> 00:21:17.600
if you think about it, teachers remain&nbsp;
in control throughout the interaction,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:21:17.600 --> 00:21:21.440
making the final decision on whether to use&nbsp;
the AI-generated content in the classroom&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:26.960
or not. However, when it comes to AI tutors&nbsp;
for students, the stakes are slightly higher,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:32.240
where we need to ensure the AI doesn't produce&nbsp;
incorrect answers, misrepresent concepts,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:38.200
or even mislead explanations. Currently, we are&nbsp;
developing solutions to enhance accuracy and also&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:43.880
the reasoning capabilities of these foundational&nbsp;
models, particularly solving math problems.&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:49.920
This represents a major step towards building AI&nbsp;
systems that's much more holistic personal tutors,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:54.700
which help student understanding and create&nbsp;
more engaging, effective learning experience.

00:21:54.700 --> 00:22:00.960
STETKIEWICZ: So you've talked about working&nbsp;
in computer vision and IoT and LLMs. What do&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:05.000
those areas have in common? Is there some thread&nbsp;
that weaves through the work that you're doing?

00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:09.000
NAMBI: That's a great question. As a systems&nbsp;
researcher, I'm quite interested in this&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:14.280
end-to-end systems development, which means&nbsp;
that my focus is not just about improving a&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:22:14.280 --> 00:22:19.280
particular algorithm but also thinking about&nbsp;
the end-to-end system, which means that I,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:22:19.280 --> 00:22:23.960
kind of, think about computer vision,&nbsp;
IoT, and even LLMs as tools, where we&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:28.720
would want to improve them for a particular&nbsp;
application. It could be agriculture, education,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:34.040
or road safety. And then how do you think this&nbsp;
holistically to come up with the best efficient&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:22:34.040 --> 00:22:39.320
system that can be deployed at population scale,&nbsp;
right. I think that's the connecting story here,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:22:39.320 --> 00:22:44.200
that how do you have this systemic thinking&nbsp;
which kind of takes the existing tools,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:49.460
improves them, makes it more efficient, and&nbsp;
takes it out from the lab to real world.

00:22:49.460 --> 00:22:53.640
STETKIEWICZ: So you're working on some&nbsp;
very powerful technology that is creating&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:58.600
tangible benefits for society, which is your&nbsp;
goal. At the same time, we're still in the&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:22:58.600 --> 00:23:03.320
very early stages of the development of AI and&nbsp;
machine learning. Have you ever thought about&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:23:03.320 --> 00:23:07.560
unintended consequences? Are there some&nbsp;
things that could go wrong, even if we&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:23:07.560 --> 00:23:12.620
get the technology right? And does that kind of&nbsp;
thinking ever influence the development process?

00:23:12.620 --> 00:23:17.800
NAMBI: Absolutely. Unintended consequences&nbsp;
are something I think about deeply. Even&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:23:17.800 --> 00:23:22.600
the most well-designed technology can have these&nbsp;
ripple effects that we may not fully anticipate,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:23:22.600 --> 00:23:27.120
especially when we are deploying it at&nbsp;
population scale. For me, being proactive&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:23:27.120 --> 00:23:31.120
is one of the key important aspects. This&nbsp;
means not only designing the technology at&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:23:31.120 --> 00:23:36.080
the lab but actually also carefully deploying&nbsp;
them in real world, measuring its impact,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:23:36.080 --> 00:23:40.400
and working with the stakeholders to minimize&nbsp;
the harm. In most of my work, I try to work&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:45.360
very closely with the partner team on the ground&nbsp;
to monitor, analyze, how the technology is being&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:23:45.360 --> 00:23:50.360
used and what are some of the risks and how can&nbsp;
we eliminate that. At the same time, I also remain&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:23:50.360 --> 00:23:56.000
very optimistic. It's also about responsibility.&nbsp;
If we are able to embed societal values, ethics,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:00.200
into the design of the system and involve&nbsp;
diverse perspectives, especially from people&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:05.560
on the ground, we can remain vigilant as the&nbsp;
technology evolves and we can create systems&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:24:05.560 --> 00:24:10.480
that can truly deliver immense societal benefits&nbsp;
while addressing many of the potential risks.

00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:17.000
STETKIEWICZ: So we've heard a lot of great&nbsp;
examples today about building technology to&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:21.560
solve real-world problems and your motivation&nbsp;
to keep doing that. So as you look ahead,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:24:21.560 --> 00:24:25.920
where do you see your research going&nbsp;
next? How will people be better off&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:29.740
because of the technology you develop&nbsp;
and the advances that they support?

00:24:29.740 --> 00:24:36.200
NAMBI: Yeah, I'm deeply interested in advancing&nbsp;
AI systems that can truly assist anyone in their&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:41.320
daily tasks, whether it's providing personalized&nbsp;
guidance to a farmer in a rural village, helping&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:24:41.320 --> 00:24:46.360
a student get instant 24 by 7 support for their&nbsp;
learning doubts, or even empowering professionals&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:24:46.360 --> 00:24:51.880
to work more efficiently. And to achieve this,&nbsp;
my research is focusing on tackling some of the&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:57.240
fundamental challenges in AI with respect to&nbsp;
reasoning and reliability and also making sure&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:03.120
that AI is more context aware and responsive&nbsp;
to evolving user needs. And looking ahead,&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:25:03.120 --> 00:25:08.720
I envision AI as not just an assistant but&nbsp;
also as an intelligent and equitable copilot&nbsp;&nbsp;

00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:14.140
seamlessly integrated into our everyday life,&nbsp;
empowering individuals across various domains.

00:25:14.140 --> 00:25:20.105
STETKIEWICZ: Great. Well, Akshay, thank you&nbsp;
for joining us on Ideas. It's been a pleasure.

00:25:20.105 --> 00:25:20.766
[MUSIC]

00:25:20.766 --> 00:25:22.680
NAMBI: Yeah, I really enjoyed&nbsp;
talking to you, Chris. Thank you.

00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:28.320
STETKIEWICZ: Till next time.

00:25:28.320 --> 00:25:29.126
[MUSIC FADES]

