WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.120 [SPOT] WEISHUNG LIU: Hey, listeners. I’m Weishung Liu,  principal PM manager with Microsoft Research and   00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:11.560 today’s podcast guest. Before we get started, I  want to tell you about Microsoft Research Forum.   00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:17.960 It’s a series of discussions and talks examining  how the rapid advances in AI are impacting science   00:00:17.960 --> 00:00:24.040 and technology research. The next episode is  June 4, and colleagues of mine from around   00:00:24.040 --> 00:00:30.160 Microsoft Research are participating. I highly  recommend checking it out. You can learn more   00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:38.393 and register now at aka.ms/MyResearchForum.  All right, here’s today’s show … [END OF SPOT] 00:00:38.393 --> 00:00:39.026 [TEASER] [MUSIC PLAYS UNDER DIALOGUE]  00:00:39.026 --> 00:00:44.940 WEISHUNG LIU: I've always felt like I want the  things that I work on to create joy in people.   00:00:44.940 --> 00:00:50.960 … The fact that I can still be here and create  impact and do meaningful work and, you know, work   00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:59.589 on things that create joy and positively impact  society, it speaks to me like stories speak to me. [TEASER ENDS] 00:01:04.800 --> 00:01:09.880 JOHANNES GEHRKE: Microsoft Research works at the cutting edge.  But how much do we know about the people behind   00:01:09.880 --> 00:01:15.600 the science and technology that we create? This  is What’s Your Story, and I’m Johannes Gehrke.   00:01:15.600 --> 00:01:20.600 In my 10 years with Microsoft, across product  and research, I’ve been continuously excited   00:01:20.600 --> 00:01:25.640 and inspired by the people I work with, and I’m  curious about how they became the talented and   00:01:25.640 --> 00:01:31.200 passionate people they are today. So I sat down  with some of them. Now, I’m sharing their stories   00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:36.280 with you. In this podcast series, you’ll hear from  them about how they grew up, the critical choices   00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:41.714 that shaped their lives, and their advice  to others looking to carve a similar path. 00:01:42.980 --> 00:01:43.600 [MUSIC FADES] 00:01:43.600 --> 00:01:50.240 In this episode, I’m talking with Principal PM  Manager Weishung Liu. Wei has used her love of   00:01:50.240 --> 00:01:54.720 storytelling and interest in people and their  motivations to deliver meaningful products and   00:01:54.720 --> 00:02:00.280 customer experiences. This includes the creation  of a successful line of Disney plush toys   00:02:00.280 --> 00:02:06.840 and contributions to the satellite internet system  Starlink. With Microsoft, she helped develop Watch   00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:11.840 For, a real-time video analytics platform that  has gone on to enhance gaming via streaming   00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:18.640 highlights and to support content moderation in  products such as Xbox. Today, she’s facilitating   00:02:18.640 --> 00:02:23.320 connections and devising strategies to empower  teams within Microsoft Research to maximize   00:02:23.320 --> 00:02:29.840 their reach. Here’s my conversation with Wei,  beginning with her childhood in Silicon Valley.   00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:34.960 JOHANNES GEHRKE: Hi, Wei. Welcome to What's  your Story. You're our principal PM manager   00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:39.400 here in the lab, and we'll talk in a little while  about, you know, what you're doing here right now,   00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:43.626 but maybe let's start with, how did you  actually end up in tech? Where did you grow up? 00:02:43.626 --> 00:02:48.000 WEISHUNG LIU: Oh, wow. OK. So this  is a very long, long and, like,   00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:52.920 nonlinear story about how I got into  tech. So I grew up in Silicon Valley,   00:02:52.920 --> 00:02:56.600 which one would assume means just, like, oh,  yes, you grew up in Silicon Valley; therefore,   00:02:56.600 --> 00:03:00.400 you must be in the STEM field, and therefore,  you will be in tech for the rest of your life. 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:02.426 GEHRKE: Yep, that's, sort  of, a too familiar a story. 00:03:02.426 --> 00:03:09.880 LIU: That's a very linear story. And I totally  actually wanted to rebel against that whole notion   00:03:09.880 --> 00:03:17.500 of going into tech. So I grew up in Silicon Valley  and thought, like, man, I want to not do STEM. 00:03:17.500 --> 00:03:20.675 GEHRKE: So did your parents want you to be  either a doctor or engineer? Is that the ... ? 00:03:20.675 --> 00:03:22.040 LIU: Absolutely. It was either a doctor, engineer,   00:03:22.040 --> 00:03:27.320 or lawyer. So thankfully my sister went the  PhD in psychology route, so she, kind of,   00:03:27.320 --> 00:03:32.160 checked that box for us. And so I was a  little bit more free to pursue my very,   00:03:32.160 --> 00:03:41.280 very, very wide variety of interests. So a little  bit of personal information about me. So I grew   00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:48.480 up a very sick child, and so I was hospitalized  a lot. I was in the ER a lot. But that actually   00:03:48.480 --> 00:03:55.560 afforded me a lot of opportunities to be, sort  of, an indoor-only child of reading and playing   00:03:55.560 --> 00:04:00.800 video games and all sorts of things that I  would say, like, expanded my worldview. Like,   00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:05.920 it was just all sorts of different stories. Like,  reading has stories; video games have stories. 00:04:05.920 --> 00:04:10.518 GEHRKE: Tell us a story about reading  and a story about video games. What were your favorite set of books? 00:04:10.518 --> 00:04:11.117 LIU: Oh my goodness … 00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:18.360 I was really interested in, like, historical  fiction at the time. One book that I remember   00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:23.120 reading about—oh my gosh, it's a very famous book,  and I don't remember the name anymore. However,   00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:30.200 it was about a young girl's perspective of  being, living in an internment camp, the Japanese   00:04:30.200 --> 00:04:36.640 internment camps, back during World War II, I  believe, after Pearl Harbor. And it was just kind   00:04:36.640 --> 00:04:42.480 of her diary and her perspective. It was almost  like Diary of Anne Frank but from a Japanese   00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:48.880 American girl's perspective instead. And I just  loved, kind of, reading about different viewpoints   00:04:48.880 --> 00:04:56.360 and different eras and trying to understand,  like, where do we overlap, how do things change   00:04:56.360 --> 00:05:02.160 over time, how does history repeat itself  in some ways? And, and I love that. And then   00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:08.000 video games. So I was really into Japanese RPGs  back in the day. So it's funny. I started ... my   00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:15.280 first console was a Mattel Intellivision II,  and then it gradually went up to like Nintendo,   00:05:15.280 --> 00:05:25.200 Super Nintendo, all those, all those consoles. But  I had a friend who I used to play RPGs with ... 00:05:25.200 --> 00:05:27.460 GEHRKE: So these were network  RPGs or individual RPGs? 00:05:27.460 --> 00:05:31.680 LIU: These were individual RPGs. This is, you  know, when I was around 10, the internet appeared,   00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:39.440 so it probably dates me a little bit. Every  time a new RPG came out like by—the company is   00:05:39.440 --> 00:05:46.840 now called Square Enix but back then it was called  SquareSoft—or Nintendo like Zelda, he and I would   00:05:46.840 --> 00:05:52.440 immediately go out and buy the game or, you know,  convince our parents at the time to buy the game,   00:05:52.440 --> 00:05:56.820 and then we would compete. So, like, this is  not couch co-op; he was actually in Texas. 00:05:56.820 --> 00:05:58.000 GEHRKE: Like long-distance co-op? 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:00.760 LIU: This is long-distance, long-distance gaming   00:06:00.760 --> 00:06:03.680 where we would compete to see  who would beat the game first. 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:04.680 GEHRKE: Wow. 00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:09.120 LIU: No, you're not allowed to use  walkthroughs. And he almost always beat me. 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:11.260 GEHRKE: But these games are  like 60-hour, 80-hour games? 00:06:11.260 --> 00:06:13.840 LIU: Yeah, like 60- or 80-hour  games, but, like, you know,   00:06:13.840 --> 00:06:18.840 we got so good at them that, well, you had  to figure out like how do you, kind of,   00:06:18.840 --> 00:06:23.462 bypass and get through the main quest  as fast as possible. So that was always— 00:06:23.462 --> 00:06:24.675 GEHRKE: So any of the side quests  and things like that just ... ? 00:06:24.675 --> 00:06:29.560 LIU: Yeah, oh, yeah, no. So I'm actually a huge  completionist, though, so I'd always go back after   00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:34.600 and do all the side quests to get, you know,  we'll just say "100 percent" achievement. I'm   00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:38.360 a little bit of an achievement machine that  way. But so, like, that kind of stuff was   00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:46.560 always super fun for me. And so I spent so  much of my time then—because I was, kind of,   00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:51.840 more homebound a lot—just exploring  and being curious about things. And,   00:06:51.840 --> 00:06:56.240 and that got me into art and into  design, and I thought, man, I'm   00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:02.880 going to be an architect someday because I love  designing experiences, like spaces for people. 00:07:02.880 --> 00:07:04.760 GEHRKE: You thought at that  point in time like a real,   00:07:04.760 --> 00:07:08.595 like a building architect or an architect  for like virtual worlds or so ... ? 00:07:08.595 --> 00:07:15.960 LIU: No, real, like a real physical space that  people inhabit and experience. And so, like,   00:07:15.960 --> 00:07:21.880 I avoided as much STEM as I could in school.  I couldn't, just due to where I lived and grew   00:07:21.880 --> 00:07:26.560 up and the high school requirements that I had.  But the minute I went to college, which happened   00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:29.520 to be at the University of Washington,  which has a great architecture program,   00:07:30.520 --> 00:07:33.140 I was like, I'm never going to  take another STEM class in my life. 00:07:33.140 --> 00:07:35.080 GEHRKE: So you enrolled as an architecture major? 00:07:35.080 --> 00:07:41.960 LIU: I enrolled as an architecture major, and  I was like, I will do what we would call the   00:07:41.960 --> 00:07:46.360 "natural world" credits, which is kind of the  STEM-like things. But I would intentionally find   00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:52.920 things that were not, like, hard science because  I'm like, I'm never going to do this again. I'm   00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:56.920 never going to be in tech. All these people  that are so obsessed with tech who, you know,   00:07:56.920 --> 00:08:01.420 went to MIT and Stanford, and I'm like, no,  no, no, I'm going to be an architecture major. 00:08:01.420 --> 00:08:04.320 GEHRKE: So you took, like, the  physics for poets class or so ...? 00:08:04.320 --> 00:08:11.400 LIU: Stuff like that, right. [LAUGHS] Very, very  similar. But I ended up just loving learning at   00:08:11.400 --> 00:08:17.080 school, which is very unsurprising. You know,  I took, like, an Arabic poetry class. I took   00:08:17.080 --> 00:08:24.440 a French fairy tales class. And I just, kind  of, explored college and all the things that it   00:08:24.440 --> 00:08:32.920 had to offer in terms of academics so much that I  actually ended up deciding to get two degrees: one   00:08:32.920 --> 00:08:39.040 in industrial design, which is not too far away  from architecture. Architecture is like with large   00:08:39.040 --> 00:08:46.360 spaces, like you build one building or design one  building that lasts maybe 100 years. Industrial   00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:51.960 design, I, kind of, joke about it. It's, you know,  you design smaller form factors that sometimes,   00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:58.120 if they're manufactured with plastics, last  millions of years, [LAUGHS] and you build millions   00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:04.960 of them. But then I also ended up getting a degree  in comparative religion, as well. Which it meant   00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:09.440 that, like, my schooling and my class schedules  are always a little bit odd because I'd go from,   00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:15.880 you know, like, the industrial design shop down  in our design building and like making things   00:09:15.880 --> 00:09:20.960 with my hands and working at the bandsaw, and then  I’d, you know, rush to this other class where we   00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:27.200 have like very fascinating philosophical debates  about various things in, sort of, the comparative   00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:32.560 religion space. And I'd write, you know, 10-page  essays and … about all sorts of things. And,   00:09:32.560 --> 00:09:37.640 you know, there's, like, the study of death is a  great example and how different cultures react to   00:09:37.640 --> 00:09:43.140 death. But, you know, that was as far away from  STEM [LAUGHS] as I could have possibly gone. 00:09:43.140 --> 00:09:45.880 GEHRKE: Right. I was just thinking,  can you maybe explain to our listeners   00:09:45.880 --> 00:09:50.160 a little bit who may come a little bit  more from the STEM field traditionally,   00:09:50.160 --> 00:09:53.500 what do you study in comparative  [religion], and what is the field like? 00:09:53.500 --> 00:10:01.720 LIU: So for me, it was really just, like, I took a  lot of classes just trying to understand people. I   00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:08.880 really ... and it sounds, kind of, silly to say it  that way, but religion is really formed and shaped   00:10:08.880 --> 00:10:15.560 by people. And so for me, like, the types of  classes that I took were, sort of, like studying   00:10:15.560 --> 00:10:20.720 Western religion, studying Eastern religion,  studying the philosophy of religion, like or   00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:27.960 even—and this still, I still think about it from  time to time—how do you define religion? And just   00:10:27.960 --> 00:10:35.240 even … there's still so many scholarly debates  about how to define, like, what is a "pure"   00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:41.080 definition of religion, and nobody can really  still identify that yet. Is it, you know, because   00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:48.320 then there's this distinction of spiritualism  and being religious versus something else or   00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:53.280 just completely made-up, you know, pseudoscience,  whatever, right. People have this wide spectrum   00:10:53.280 --> 00:11:01.440 of things that they describe. But it's really  around learning about the different foundations   00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:06.200 of religion. And then people tend to specialize.  You know, they might specialize in a particular   00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:11.680 area like Hinduism or, you know, broadly speaking,  Eastern religions, or people will, you know, start   00:11:11.680 --> 00:11:19.520 focusing on Western religions. Or sometimes I  think about a specific topic like the intersection   00:11:19.520 --> 00:11:26.320 of, for example, religion and death or religion  and art or even, you know, religion and violence.   00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:34.040 And there's a broad spectrum of things that  people start specializing in. And it's very,   00:11:34.040 --> 00:11:39.480 it's, sort of, very much in the mind but very  much in the heart of how you understand that. 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:41.160 GEHRKE: Yeah, I can see how it even connects   00:11:41.160 --> 00:11:44.235 to industrial design because there  you also want to capture the heart … 00:11:44.235 --> 00:11:44.744 LIU: Yes. 00:11:44.744 --> 00:11:45.995 GEHRKE: … the hearts of people, right. 00:11:45.995 --> 00:11:49.240 LIU: Yep. And that’s kind of how I, how I  describe, you know, when people are like,   00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:53.680 why did you major in that? Like, what do you even  do with that? Did you even think about what career   00:11:53.680 --> 00:11:58.720 you would have with that? I'm like, no, I just  really wanted to learn, and I really wanted to   00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:04.560 understand people. And I felt like religion is one  way to understand, sort of, like, sociologically   00:12:04.560 --> 00:12:12.120 how people think and get into that deep, like,  that deep feeling of faith and where does it   00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:18.120 come from and how does it manifest and how does it  motivate people to do things in life. And to your   00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:22.120 point, it's very similar to industrial design  because you're, you know, we talk about design   00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:26.840 thinking and you have to really deeply understand  the user and the people that you're designing for   00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:32.680 in order to create something that really lasts,  that matters to them. So that's, kind of, my,   00:12:32.680 --> 00:12:41.200 at least my undergrad experience. And in a very,  very brief way, I'll just kind of walk through   00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:47.400 or at least tell you the very nonlinear path that  I took to get to where I am here now at Microsoft   00:12:47.400 --> 00:12:54.640 Research. So like the day after I graduated from  the University of Washington, I moved to Florida. 00:12:54.640 --> 00:12:57.560 GEHRKE: And just as a question: so  you graduated from the University   00:12:57.560 --> 00:13:01.788 of Washington—did you have like a plan, you  know, this is like the career I want to have? 00:13:01.788 --> 00:13:06.320 LIU: Oh no! So here's the funny thing about  design, and I hope that, you know, my other,   00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:10.520 the designers who might be watching or listening  [LAUGHS] to this might not get upset—hopefully   00:13:10.520 --> 00:13:16.480 don't get upset with me about this—is I  love the design thinking aspect of design,   00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:24.000 like understanding why people do the things they  do, what types of habits can you build with the   00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:28.600 products—physical products? I was very obsessed  with physical, tangible things at the time.   00:13:29.760 --> 00:13:34.360 And then I learned through, like, internships  and talking to other designers who were,   00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:40.240 you know, already in the field that that's  not what they do. That they don't go and like,   00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:43.240 oh, let's go talk to people and  understand deeply what they do. Like,   00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:46.520 there's other people that do that. OK,  well, what do you do? Well, I work in,   00:13:46.520 --> 00:13:51.640 you know, CAD, or I work on SolidWorks, or I  do Rhino, and I do surfacing. I'm like, OK,   00:13:51.640 --> 00:13:57.040 what else? Who decides what gets made? Oh, that's  like, you know, a product manager or product—oh,   00:13:58.280 --> 00:14:02.680 what's that? Who? What? What does that  even mean? Like, tell me more about that. 00:14:02.680 --> 00:14:05.200 GEHRKE: So it's like the dichotomy that  you see even here in the company where   00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:08.751 the engineers have to, sort of, build the  things, but the product managers are … 00:14:08.751 --> 00:14:09.466 LIU: But someone else is ... 00:14:09.466 --> 00:14:10.032 GEHRKE: ... in the middle 00:14:10.032 --> 00:14:15.240 LIU: ... someone else is, kind of, interpreting  what the market and the users are saying,   00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:18.800 what the business is saying. And I was  like, I like doing that because that's   00:14:18.800 --> 00:14:24.992 more about understanding people and the  business and the reason—the why. And so ... 00:14:24.992 --> 00:14:26.240 GEHRKE: Just before you go to your career, I mean,   00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:29.120 I must ... I have to ask, what are some  of the favorite things that you built   00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:32.180 during your undergrad? Because you said  you really like to build physical things. 00:14:32.180 --> 00:14:33.600 LIU: Oh my gosh! 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:36.475 GEHRKE: Maybe one or two things  that you actually built ... 00:14:36.475 --> 00:14:37.360 LIU: Yeah ... GEHRKE: ... that was, sort of, so fun. 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:43.720 LIU: So one of my projects was actually a  Microsoft-sponsored project for one quarter,   00:14:44.440 --> 00:14:49.080 and all they showed up with—his name's  Steve Kaneko. He retired not too long ago   00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:56.600 from here. Steve showed up and said, I want  you all to design a memory-sharing device. 00:14:56.600 --> 00:14:57.915 GEHRKE: Interesting … 00:14:57.915 --> 00:14:58.420 LIU: And that was it. 00:14:58.420 --> 00:15:00.515 GEHRKE: So what is memory sharing?  He didn't define what that means? 00:15:00.515 --> 00:15:04.680 LIU: He didn't define it because as  designers, that was our way of interpret—we   00:15:04.680 --> 00:15:08.400 had to interpret and understand what that  meant for ourselves. And it was a very,   00:15:08.400 --> 00:15:15.240 very free-form exploration. And I thought ... the  place that I started from was ... at the time,   00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:19.920 I was like, there's like 6 or 7 billion people  in the world. How many of them do I actually   00:15:19.920 --> 00:15:25.780 know? And then how many of them do I actually  want to know or maybe I want to know better? 00:15:25.780 --> 00:15:26.995 GEHRKE: To share a memory with ... 00:15:26.995 --> 00:15:30.017 LIU: To share my memories with, to share  a part of me. Like, memories are ... 00:15:30.017 --> 00:15:31.231 GEHRKE: Pretty personal. 00:15:31.231 --> 00:15:39.280 LIU: ... who we are—or not who we are but parts of  who we are—and drive who we become in some ways.   00:15:39.280 --> 00:15:47.280 And so I thought, you know, what would be cool  is if you had a bracelet, and the bracelet were   00:15:47.280 --> 00:15:53.560 individual links, and each individual link was  a photo, like a digital photo, very tiny digital   00:15:53.560 --> 00:16:00.120 photo, of something that you chose to share.  And so, you know, I designed something at the   00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:06.080 time ... like, the story I told was, like, well,  you know, this woman who's young decided to go to,   00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:11.320 you know, she's taking the bus, and she put on  her, like, "I wish to go to Paris" kind of theme,   00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:18.080 right. So she had a bunch of Parisian-looking  things or something in that vein, right. And,   00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:24.280 you know, she gets on the bus and her bracelet  vibrates. There's, like, a haptic reaction from   00:16:24.280 --> 00:16:29.320 this bracelet. And that means that there's  someone else on the bus with this, you know,   00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:33.000 with a bracelet with their memories. It's kind  of an indicator that people want to share their   00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:39.120 stories with someone else. And, you know, wouldn't  it be great if, you know, this woman now sits down   00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:42.880 on the bus, because she sits next to the person  who's wearing it. Turns out to be an elderly   00:16:42.880 --> 00:16:49.680 woman who's wearing, coincidentally, you know,  her Paris bracelet, but it's of her honeymoon   00:16:49.680 --> 00:16:55.440 of her deceased husband from many years ago. And,  you know, like, think of the power of the stories   00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:59.760 that they could share with each other. That, you  know, this woman, elderly woman, can share with,   00:16:59.760 --> 00:17:05.680 you know, this younger woman, who has aspirations  to go, and the memories and the relationship that   00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:09.720 they can build from that. And so that was,  kind of, my memory-sharing device at the time. 00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:11.520 GEHRKE: I mean, it's super  interesting because, I mean,   00:17:11.520 --> 00:17:16.960 the way I think about this is that we  have memory-sharing applications now   00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:21.995 like Facebook and Instagram and TikTok and so  on, but they, the algorithm decides really … 00:17:21.995 --> 00:17:22.508 LIU: Yes … 00:17:22.508 --> 00:17:26.320 GEHRKE: … who to share it with and where and  why to share it. Whereas here, it's proximity,   00:17:26.320 --> 00:17:30.320 right? It somehow leads to this physical  and personal connection afterwards, right?   00:17:30.320 --> 00:17:33.959 The connection is not like, OK, suddenly  on my bracelet, her stories show up ... 00:17:33.959 --> 00:17:34.668 LIU: Yes ... 00:17:34.668 --> 00:17:36.920 GEHRKE: ... but, you know, maybe we  sit next to each other on the bus,   00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:38.680 and it vibrates, and then we start a conversation. 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:42.840 LIU: Exactly. It's you own, you know, whatever  content is on that you choose to have on your   00:17:42.840 --> 00:17:47.160 physical person, but you're sharing yourself  in a different way, and you're sharing your   00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:51.320 memories and you're sharing a moment.  And it might just be a moment in time,   00:17:51.320 --> 00:17:55.800 right. It doesn't have to be a long-lasting thing.  That, you know, this elderly woman can say, hey,   00:17:55.800 --> 00:18:00.120 there's this really great bistro that we  tried on, you know, this particular street,   00:18:00.120 --> 00:18:05.120 and I hope it's still there, because if you go,  ask for this person or try this thing out and,   00:18:05.120 --> 00:18:09.320 like, what an incredible opportunity it is for  this other woman, who, you know, maybe she does   00:18:09.320 --> 00:18:14.840 someday go to Paris and she does find it. And she  thinks of that time, like, how grateful she was   00:18:14.840 --> 00:18:20.400 to have met, you know, this woman on the bus. And  just for that brief whatever bus ... however long   00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:26.720 that bus ride was, to have that connection, to  learn something new about someone else, to share   00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:35.480 and receive a part of somebody else who you may  never have known otherwise. And then that was,   00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:39.720 that was what I was thinking of, you know, in  terms of a memory-sharing device was memory   00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:49.000 creates connections or it reinforces connections.  So I guess very similarly to my people thing and   00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:54.200 being fascinated by people, like, this was my way  of trying to connect people in a different way,   00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:57.160 in the space that they inhabit and  not necessarily on their devices. 00:18:57.160 --> 00:19:01.920 GEHRKE: And then what did Microsoft say to that?  Was there like an end-of-quarter presentation? 00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:04.120 LIU: Oh, yeah! There was a, there was a, you know,   00:19:04.120 --> 00:19:06.640 big old presentation. I can't even  remember which building we were at,   00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:11.192 but I think everybody was just like, wow,  this is great. And that was it. [LAUGHTER] 00:19:11.192 --> 00:19:15.420 GEHRKE: And that was it. It sounds  like a really fascinating device. 00:19:15.420 --> 00:19:19.720 LIU: Yeah, it was. And lots of people came  up with all sorts of really cool things   00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:24.337 because everybody interpreted the, I'll  just say, the prompt differently, right. 00:19:24.337 --> 00:19:25.837 GEHRKE: Right … 00:19:25.837 --> 00:19:28.560 LIU: … And that was my interpretation  of the prompt at the time. 00:19:28.560 --> 00:19:29.620 GEHRKE: Well, super interesting. 00:19:29.620 --> 00:19:30.600 LIU: Yeah. 00:19:30.600 --> 00:19:35.280 GEHRKE: Coming back to, so OK, so you've done  just a bunch of really amazing projects. You,   00:19:35.280 --> 00:19:37.940 sort of, it seems like you literally  lived the notion of liberal education. 00:19:37.940 --> 00:19:43.760 LIU: I did. I, like, even now I just  love learning. I get my hands on all   00:19:43.760 --> 00:19:47.140 sorts of weird things. I picked  up whittling as a random example. 00:19:47.140 --> 00:19:50.040 GEHRKE: What is whittling? Do I  even know what that is? [LAUGHS] 00:19:50.040 --> 00:19:58.400 LIU: So whittling is basically carving shapes  into wood. So … I'm also very accident prone,   00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:02.880 so there's, like, lots of gloves I had to  wear to protect my hands. But, you know,   00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:08.360 it was like, oh, I really just want to  pick up whittling. And I literally did,   00:20:08.360 --> 00:20:13.120 you know. You can grab a stick and you  can actually buy balsa wood that's in a,   00:20:13.120 --> 00:20:17.000 in decent shape. But you can just start  carving away at whatever … whatever you   00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:22.240 would like to form that piece of wood into,  it can become that. So I made a cat, and then   00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:28.591 I made what I jokingly refer to as my fidget toy  at home. It's just a very smooth object. [LAUGHS] 00:20:28.591 --> 00:20:30.024 LIU: I just made it very round  and smooth and you can just,  00:20:30.024 --> 00:20:31.480 GEHRKE: That you can hold and … 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:34.352 LIU: kind of, like, rub it, and yeah, it's ... 00:20:34.352 --> 00:20:35.311 GEHRKE: Super interesting. 00:20:35.311 --> 00:20:40.600 LIU: ... it's ... I pick up a lot of random things  because it's just fascinating to me. I learned a   00:20:40.600 --> 00:20:45.080 bunch of languages when I was in school. I learned  Coptic when I was in school for no other reason   00:20:45.080 --> 00:20:50.220 than, hey, that sounds cool; you can read the Dead  Sea Scrolls [LAUGHS] when you learn Coptic—OK! 00:20:50.220 --> 00:20:54.000 GEHRKE: Wow. And so much, so  important in today's world, right,   00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:57.780 which is moving so fast, is a love for learning.  And then especially directed in some areas. 00:20:57.780 --> 00:20:58.260 LIU: Yeah. 00:20:58.260 --> 00:21:00.818 GEHRKE: You know, that's  just really an awesome skill. 00:21:00.818 --> 00:21:01.518 LIU: Yeah. 00:21:01.518 --> 00:21:04.271 GEHRKE: And so you just graduated.  You said you moved to Florida. 00:21:04.271 --> 00:21:08.240 LIU: Oh, yes, yes. Yes. So, so  about a month before this happened,   00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:12.440 right—it didn't just spontaneously happen.  A month before, I had a good friend from   00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:18.520 the architecture program who had said, hey,  Wei, you know, I'm applying for this role   00:21:18.520 --> 00:21:23.840 in guest services at Disney. I was like,  really? You can do that? And she's like,   00:21:23.840 --> 00:21:27.560 yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, that sounds  really cool. And I, you know, went to, like,   00:21:27.560 --> 00:21:31.920 the Disney careers site. I'm like one month or  two months away from graduating. Still, like,   00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:35.360 not sure what I'm totally going to do because at  that point, I'm like, I don't think I want to be   00:21:35.360 --> 00:21:41.720 a designer because I don't—the part that I love  about it, the part that I have passion about, is   00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:47.000 not in the actual design of the object, but it's  about the understanding of why it needs to exist. 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:48.680 GEHRKE: The interconnection  between the people and the design. 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:53.520 LIU: The people and the design,  exactly. And so when I found,   00:21:53.520 --> 00:21:56.720 I found this, like, product development  internship opportunity, and I was like,   00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:59.952 what does that even mean?  That sounds cool. I get to … 00:21:59.952 --> 00:22:00.506 GEHRKE: At Disney? 00:22:00.506 --> 00:22:07.480 LIU: At Disney. And it was, like—and Disney's  tagline, the theme park merchandise's tagline,   00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:17.680 was "creating tangible memories." I was like, oh  boy, this just checks all the boxes. So I applied,   00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:21.880 I interviewed, did a phone interview, and  they hired me within 24 hours. They were like,   00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:27.600 we would like you to come. And I was like, I would  absolutely love to move to Florida and work there.   00:22:27.600 --> 00:22:35.855 So, yeah, the day after I graduated from U-Dub, I  drove all the way across the country from Seattle. 00:22:35.855 --> 00:22:36.860 GEHRKE: You drove? LIU: From Seattle with two cats. 00:22:36.860 --> 00:22:38.600 GEHRKE: That must have been an  interesting adventure by itself. 00:22:38.600 --> 00:22:42.680 LIU: Oh, yes. With two cats in the car, let  me tell you, it was fascinating. All the way   00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:51.080 to Florida, Orlando, Florida. And the day that  I got there or, no, two days after I got there,   00:22:51.080 --> 00:22:56.720 I found out that I was going to be working in  the toys area. So plush and dolls, which is,   00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:07.400 like, you can imagine just absolutely amazing.  Making, like, stuffed toys that then—because my   00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:11.400 office was a mile down the road from Disney's  Animal Kingdom and therefore a couple miles   00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:18.000 away from Magic Kingdom or Hollywood Studios or  EPCOT—I could actually go see, I'll just say,   00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:25.560 the "fruits of my labor" instantly and not  only that. See it bring joy to children. 00:23:25.560 --> 00:23:28.800 GEHRKE: So what is the path? So you would  design something, and how quickly would   00:23:28.800 --> 00:23:32.021 it then actually end up in the park? Or how  did you, I mean, how did you start the job? 00:23:32.021 --> 00:23:33.021 LIU: What did I do there? Yeah, yeah ... 00:23:33.021 --> 00:23:35.906 GEHRKE: Well, what's the interface  between the people and the design here? 00:23:35.906 --> 00:23:39.600 LIU: Yeah … So, so, really, I didn't actually  do any design. There was an entire group called   00:23:39.600 --> 00:23:44.800 Disney Design Group that does all the designing  there. And so what I did was I understood,   00:23:44.800 --> 00:23:49.600 what do we need to make and why? What memories  are we—what tangible memories do we want to create   00:23:49.600 --> 00:23:54.040 for people? Why does it matter to them? In many  ways, it's, sort of, like, it's still a business,   00:23:54.040 --> 00:23:59.120 right. You're creating tangible memories to  generate revenue and increase the bottom line   00:23:59.120 --> 00:24:05.400 for the company. But ... so my role was  to understand what trends were happening:   00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:09.480 what were the opportunities? What were guests  doing in the parks? What types of things are   00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:17.800 guests looking for? What are we missing in our SKU  lineup, or stock-keeping-unit lineup, and then in   00:24:17.800 --> 00:24:25.120 which merchandising areas do they need to happen?  And so I, actually, as part of my internship,   00:24:26.080 --> 00:24:33.240 my manager said, hey, I let every intern every  time they're here come up with any idea they want,   00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:36.560 and you just have to see it from start to  execution—in addition to all the other stuff   00:24:36.560 --> 00:24:41.480 that I worked on. I was like, sounds good. And I  came up with this idea that I was like, you know,   00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:46.240 it would be cool ... Uglydolls was really popular  at the time. Designer toys were getting really   00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:50.840 popular from Kidrobot, which was kind of, like,  there was this vinyl thing and you can—it was just   00:24:50.840 --> 00:24:58.960 decorative of all different art styles on the same  canvas. And I was like, you know, what if we did   00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:06.560 that with Mickey, and then, you know, what if the  story that we're telling is, you know, just for   00:25:06.560 --> 00:25:12.160 the parks—Walt Disney World and Disneyland—that  there were aliens or monsters coming to visit   00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:17.520 the park, but they wanted to blend in and fit in?  Well, how would they do that? Well, they clearly   00:25:17.520 --> 00:25:23.400 see Mickey heads everywhere, and Mickey is very  popular here clearly, and so they try to dress   00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:28.520 up like Mickey, but they don't do it quite well.  So they got the shape right, but everything else   00:25:28.520 --> 00:25:32.792 about them is a little bit different, and they  all have their own unique personalities and ... 00:25:32.792 --> 00:25:33.875 GEHRKE: You can tell a story around them ... 00:25:33.875 --> 00:25:41.720 LIU: You can tell a story—see, it's all about  stories. And then it ... I got buy-in from   00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:46.600 everybody there, like, all the way up to the VP.  I had to get brand because I was messing with the   00:25:46.600 --> 00:25:54.760 brand icon. But, you know, it became an entire  line called Mickey Monsters at Disney. I still   00:25:54.760 --> 00:25:59.560 have them all. There were two—then it went  from plush; it became consumables, which are   00:25:59.560 --> 00:26:07.360 like edible things. It went into key chains. It  went, it was super ... it was ... I probably went   00:26:07.360 --> 00:26:11.512 a little bit too hard, or I took the, I think,  I took the assignment very seriously. [LAUGHS] 00:26:11.512 --> 00:26:13.880 GEHRKE: Yep, yep. Well, it seemed  to be a huge success, as well. 00:26:13.880 --> 00:26:17.120 LIU: Yeah. It did really well in the  time that it was there. We did a test,   00:26:17.120 --> 00:26:22.120 and I was really, really proud of it. But  you know, my—what I did though is, you know,   00:26:22.120 --> 00:26:31.040 very concretely was I started with an idea. I, you  know, convinced and aligned with lots of people   00:26:31.040 --> 00:26:37.640 in various disciplines that this is something  that we should try and experiment on. You know,   00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:42.040 worked with the designers to really design what  this could look like. You know, scoped out what   00:26:42.040 --> 00:26:47.280 types of fabrics because there's all sorts of  different textures out there. Working with,   00:26:47.280 --> 00:26:50.320 kind of, our sourcing team to understand,  like, which vendors do we want to work   00:26:50.320 --> 00:26:59.040 with. And then typically, in the plush industry,  manufacturing back in the day could happen—and   00:26:59.040 --> 00:27:05.012 in terms of supply chain, manufacturing, and then  delivery of product—could take about six months. 00:27:05.012 --> 00:27:05.955 GEHRKE: OK … 00:27:05.955 --> 00:27:11.920 LIU: And so when I was there, anything I  worked on would, kind of, appear in six months,   00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:16.000 which is actually very cool. I mean, it's not  like software, where anything you work on is,   00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:20.440 you're like boop, compile—oh look [there] it is.  It depends on how fast your computer is. You know,   00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:23.600 it's pretty instantaneous compared to  six months to see the fruits of your   00:27:23.600 --> 00:27:28.840 labor. But it was a really, just such  a great experience. And then seeing,   00:27:28.840 --> 00:27:33.573 you know, then going to the parks  and seeing children with ... 00:27:33.573 --> 00:27:34.311 GEHRKE: Yeah, the stuff that you ... 00:27:34.311 --> 00:27:38.040 LIU: ... the thing that I worked on,  the thing that I had the idea on, and,   00:27:38.040 --> 00:27:40.700 like, them going like, Mom, I really want this. 00:27:40.700 --> 00:27:41.435 GEHRKE: Right ... 00:27:41.435 --> 00:27:45.320 LIU: You know, we're not really selling to the  kids; we're, kind of, selling to the parents. 00:27:45.320 --> 00:27:47.880 GEHRKE: It's a bit like this feeling  that we can have here at Microsoft,   00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:50.004 right, if any of our ideas  makes it into products … 00:27:50.004 --> 00:27:50.670 LIU: Yup … 00:27:50.670 --> 00:27:54.700 GEHRKE: … that are then used by 100 million people  and hopefully bring them joy and connection. 00:27:54.700 --> 00:27:58.560 LIU: Exactly. And that’s why, like,  I just think Microsoft is great,   00:27:58.560 --> 00:28:04.600 because our portfolio is so broad, and so  much of our work touches different parts   00:28:04.600 --> 00:28:09.520 of our lives. And I'll even pick on, you  know, like I have, you know, in my family,   00:28:09.520 --> 00:28:15.840 my daughter goes to school—clearly, obviously,  she would go to school—but she used Flipgrid,   00:28:15.840 --> 00:28:18.720 now known as Flip, for a while. And  I was like, hey, that's cool. Like,   00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:23.160 she uses something that, you know, I don't  directly work on, but my company works on. 00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:26.030 GEHRKE: Well, and you were involved  with it through Watch For, right … 00:28:26.030 --> 00:28:26.696 LIU: Yes, I was … 00:28:26.696 --> 00:28:28.540 GEHRKE: … which did become  the motivation for Flip. 00:28:28.540 --> 00:28:35.200 LIU: Yep. Watch For, you know, helps to detect  inappropriate content on Flip. And, you know,   00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.680 that's super cool because now I'm like,  oh, the work that I'm doing actually is   00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:45.400 directly impacting and helping people like  my daughter and making a difference and,   00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:51.800 you know, keeping users safe from content that  maybe we don't want them to see. You know,   00:28:51.800 --> 00:28:57.240 other areas like Microsoft Word, I'm like, wow,  this is a thing. Like, I'm at the company that   00:28:57.240 --> 00:29:05.640 makes the thing that I've used forever, and,  you know, like, it's just fascinating to see   00:29:05.640 --> 00:29:10.640 the types of things that we can touch here  at Microsoft Research, for example. And how,   00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:16.112 you know, I, you know, Marie Kondo popularized  the term "joy," like, "sparking joy," but ... 00:29:16.112 --> 00:29:19.770 GEHRKE: If you look at an item  and if it doesn't sparkle joy ... 00:29:19.770 --> 00:29:20.760 LIU: If it doesn't spark joy, right ... GEHRKE: ... then you know on which side it goes. 00:29:20.760 --> 00:29:28.240 LIU: Exactly. But, but, you know, like, I've  always felt like I want the things that I work   00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:34.280 on to create joy in people. And it was very  obvious when you make toys that you see the   00:29:34.280 --> 00:29:39.480 joy on children's faces with it. It's a little  bit different, but it's so much more nuanced and   00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:44.240 rewarding when you also see, sort of, the products  that, the types of things that we work on in   00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:51.280 research create joy. It's, you know, it's funny  because I mentioned software is instantaneous in   00:29:51.280 --> 00:29:59.000 many ways, and then, you know, toys takes a little  bit longer. But then, you know, in the types of   00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:02.011 research that we do, sometimes it takes a little  bit longer than, a little bit longer [LAUGHS] ... 00:30:02.011 --> 00:30:02.911 GEHRKE: It takes years sometimes! 00:30:02.911 --> 00:30:10.680 LIU: ... than six months. Years to pay off.  But, like, that return on that investment is   00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:17.360 so worth it. And, you know, I see that in,  kind of, the work that lots of folks around   00:30:17.360 --> 00:30:23.720 MSR [Microsoft Research] do today. And knowing  that even, sort of, the circles that I hang out   00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:31.080 in now do such crazy, cool, impactful things that  help benefit the world. And, you know, it's funny,   00:30:31.080 --> 00:30:38.600 like, never say never. I'm in tech and I love it,  and I don't have a STEM background. I didn't get a   00:30:38.600 --> 00:30:43.040 STEM background. I didn't get it, well, I don't  have a STEM degree. Like, I did not go—like, I   00:30:43.040 --> 00:30:49.520 can't code my way out of a paper bag. But the fact  that I can still be here and create impact and   00:30:49.520 --> 00:30:57.920 do meaningful work and, you know, work on things  that create joy and positively impact society is,   00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:02.400 like, it speaks to me like stories speak to me. 00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:06.240 GEHRKE: I mean, there's so many elements that  come together in what you're saying. I mean,   00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:09.840 research is not a game of  the person sitting in the   00:31:09.840 --> 00:31:13.880 lowly corner on her whiteboard,  right? But it's a team sport. 00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:14.460 LIU: Yep. 00:31:14.460 --> 00:31:18.000 GEHRKE: It requires many different  people with many different skills,   00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.760 right? It requires the spark of  ingenuity. It requires, you know,   00:31:21.760 --> 00:31:26.360 the deep scientific insight. It requires then  the scaling and engineering. It requires the   00:31:26.360 --> 00:31:31.640 PM, right, to make actually the connection to  the value, and the execution then requires the   00:31:31.640 --> 00:31:37.266 designer to actually create that joy with the  user interface to seeing how it actually fits. 00:31:37.266 --> 00:31:43.560 LIU: Exactly. And it's fascinating that we  sometimes talk about research being like a   00:31:43.560 --> 00:31:50.680 lonely journey. It can be, but it can also be  such an empowering collaborative journey that   00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:56.080 you can build such incredible cool things when you  bring people together—cross-disciplinary people   00:31:56.080 --> 00:32:04.280 together—to dream bigger and dream about  new ideas and new ways of thinking. And,   00:32:04.280 --> 00:32:07.400 like, that's why I also love talking to  researchers here because they all have   00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:11.840 such unique perspectives and inner worlds  and lives that are frankly so different   00:32:11.840 --> 00:32:16.400 from my own. And I think when they encounter me,  they're like, she's very different from us, too. 00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:18.475 GEHRKE: But I think these differences  are our superpower, right, because ... 00:32:18.475 --> 00:32:20.395 LIU: Exactly. And that's what brings us together. 00:32:20.395 --> 00:32:22.800 GEHRKE: ... they have to be bridged and  that brings us together. Exactly. So how,   00:32:22.800 --> 00:32:27.840 I mean, if you think about Microsoft Research  as over here. You're here in Disney in Florida? 00:32:27.840 --> 00:32:29.192 LIU: Yes, yes, yes. So ... 00:32:29.192 --> 00:32:31.000 GEHRKE: You had quite a few stops along the way. 00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:33.000 LIU: I did have a lot of stops along the way. 00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:34.140 GEHRKE: And very nonlinear also? 00:32:34.140 --> 00:32:40.240 LIU: It was also very nonlinear. So  Disney took me to the third, at the time,   00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:46.920 the third-largest toy company in the US, called  JAKKS Pacific, where I worked on again, sort of,   00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:52.240 Disney-licensed and Mattel-licensed products, so  "dress up and role play" toys is what we refer to   00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:56.360 them as. "Dress up" meaning, like, if you go  to your local Target or Walmart or whatever,   00:32:56.360 --> 00:33:03.000 kind of, large store, they will have in their  toy sections like dresses for Disney princesses,   00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:07.160 for example, or Disney fairies. Like, I worked on  stuff like that, which is also very cool because,   00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:13.200 you know, usually around Halloween time here in  the US is when I'm like, hey, I know that. And   00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:19.560 then that, kind of, took me to a video game  accessory organization here in Woodinville. 00:33:19.560 --> 00:33:21.433 GEHRKE: There's the connection  to tech starting to appear. 00:33:21.433 --> 00:33:26.280 LIU: There's a little bit connection of tech where  I was like, I love video games! And I got to work   00:33:26.280 --> 00:33:31.400 on audio products there, as well, like headphones.  And it was the first time I started working on   00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:35.440 things that, I'll just say, had electrons running  through them. So I had already worked on things   00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:39.840 that were, like, both soft lines—we refer to  a soft line as bags and things that require,   00:33:39.840 --> 00:33:45.360 like, fabrics and textiles—and then I worked  on hard lines, which were things that are more,   00:33:45.360 --> 00:33:53.400 things that are more physically rigid, like  plastics. And so I was like, OK, well, I've worked   00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:56.960 on hard-lines-like stuff, and now I'm going to  work on hard lines with electrons running through   00:33:56.960 --> 00:34:01.160 them. That's kind of neat. And I learned all sorts  of things about electricity. I was like, oh, this   00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:10.760 is weird and fascinating and circuits and … . And  then I was like, well, this is cool, but ... what   00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:18.520 else is there? And it took me to not a very  well-known company in some circles, but a company   00:34:18.520 --> 00:34:25.680 called Fluke Corporation. Fluke is best known  for its digital multimeters, and I worked there   00:34:25.680 --> 00:34:30.600 on their thermal imaging cameras. So it's, for  people who don't know, it's kind of like Predator   00:34:30.600 --> 00:34:36.920 vision. You can see what's hot; you can see what's  not. It's very cool. And Fluke spoke to me because   00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:42.720 their, you know, not only is their tagline "they  keep your world up and running"; a lot of the   00:34:42.720 --> 00:34:47.680 things that Fluke does, especially when I heard  stories from, like, electricians and technicians   00:34:47.680 --> 00:34:53.560 who use Fluke products, are like, this Fluke saved  my life. I'm like, it did? What? And they're like,   00:34:53.560 --> 00:34:58.640 you know, I was in a high-voltage situation,  and I just wasn't paying attention. I, you know,   00:34:58.640 --> 00:35:05.320 didn't ground properly. And then there was an  incident. But, you know, my multimeter survived,   00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:11.080 and more importantly, I survived. And you're like,  wow, like, that's, that's really cool. And so   00:35:11.080 --> 00:35:18.080 while I was at Fluke, they asked me if I wanted to  work on a new IoT project. And I was like, I don't   00:35:18.080 --> 00:35:22.960 even know what IoT is. "Internet of Things"  ... like, OK, well, you said "things" to me,   00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:28.200 and I like things. I like tangible things. Tell  me more. And so that was, kind of, my first foray   00:35:28.200 --> 00:35:38.640 into things that had … of products with electrons  on them with user interfaces and then also with   00:35:38.640 --> 00:35:43.880 software, like pure software, that were running on  devices like your smartphones or your tablets or   00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:48.560 your computers. And so I started learning more  about like, oh, what does software development   00:35:48.560 --> 00:35:56.920 look like? Oh, it's a lot faster than hardware  development. It's kind of neat. And then that   00:35:56.920 --> 00:36:01.920 took me to SpaceX, of all places. It was super  weird. Like, SpaceX was like, hey, do you want to   00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:06.320 come work in software here? I was like, but I'm  not a rocket scientist. They're like, you don't   00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:18.000 need to be. I was like, huh, OK. And so I worked  on Starlink before Starlink was a real thing. I   00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:24.680 worked on, kind of, the back-office systems for  the ISP. I also worked on what we would refer to   00:36:24.680 --> 00:36:29.912 as our enterprise resource planning system that  powers all of SpaceX. It’s called Warp Drive. 00:36:29.912 --> 00:36:31.220 GEHRKE: That’s where you got  all your software experience. 00:36:31.220 --> 00:36:36.920 LIU: That’s where I learned all about software  and working on complex systems, also monoliths   00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:44.960 and older systems, and how do you think about,  you know, sometimes zero-fault tolerance systems   00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:53.280 and also, that also remain flexible for its users  so they can move fast. And then from SpaceX, that   00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:59.720 took me to a startup called Likewise. It's here in  Bellevue. And then from the startup, I was like,   00:36:59.720 --> 00:37:06.160 I really like those people in Microsoft. I really  want to work in research because they come up   00:37:06.160 --> 00:37:11.200 with all these cool ideas, and then they could  do stuff with it. And I'm such an idea person,   00:37:11.200 --> 00:37:16.280 and maybe I'm pretty good at execution, but I  love the idea side of things. And I discovered   00:37:16.280 --> 00:37:20.388 that over the course of my career, and that's  actually what brought me here to begin with. 00:37:20.388 --> 00:37:22.720 GEHRKE: And that's, sort of, your  superpower that you bring now here.   00:37:22.720 --> 00:37:26.480 So if I think about a typical day,  right, what do you do throughout,   00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:31.560 throughout your day? What is it, what  is it to be a PM manager here at MSR? 00:37:31.560 --> 00:37:37.160 LIU: So it's funny because when I was just  a PM and not a manager, I was more, kind of,   00:37:37.160 --> 00:37:42.240 figuring out, how do I make this product go?  How do I make this product ship? How do I move   00:37:42.240 --> 00:37:48.040 things forward and empower organizations with  the products that I—people and organizations   00:37:48.040 --> 00:37:54.640 on the planet to achieve more [with] what I'm  working on? And now as a PM manager, I'm more   00:37:54.640 --> 00:38:00.400 empowering the people in my team to do that and  thinking about uniquely like, who are they, what   00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:06.720 are their motivations, and then how do I help them  grow, and then how do I help their products ship,   00:38:06.720 --> 00:38:14.960 and how do I help their teams cohere? And  so really my day-to-day is so much less,   00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:19.240 like, being involved in the nitty-gritty  details of any project at any point in time,   00:38:19.240 --> 00:38:24.160 but it's really meeting with different people  around Microsoft Research and just understanding,   00:38:24.160 --> 00:38:30.360 like, what's going on and making sure that  we're executing on the impactful work that   00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:35.760 we want to move forward. You know, it's boring to  say it's—it doesn't sound very interesting. Like,   00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:41.880 mostly, it's emails and meetings and talking,  and, you know, talking to people one-on-one,   00:38:41.880 --> 00:38:47.000 occasionally writing documents and creating  artifacts that matter. But more importantly,   00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:54.960 I would say it's creating connections, helping  uplift people, and making sure that they are   00:38:54.960 --> 00:39:00.220 moving and being empowered in the way that  they feel that—to help them achieve more. 00:39:00.220 --> 00:39:04.000 GEHRKE: That's super interesting. Maybe in  closing, do you have one piece of career   00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:08.560 advice for everybody, you know, anybody who's  listening? Because you have such an interesting   00:39:08.560 --> 00:39:12.480 nonlinear career, yet when you are at Disney you  couldn't probably … didn't imagine that you would   00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:16.280 end up here at MSR, and you don't know what,  like, we had a little pre-discussion. You said   00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:20.700 you don't know where you're going to go next.  So what's your career advice for any listener? 00:39:20.700 --> 00:39:29.280 LIU: I would say, you know, if you're not sure,  it's OK to not be sure, and, you know, instead of   00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:35.640 asking yourself why, ask yourself why not. If you  look at something and you're like, hey, that job   00:39:35.640 --> 00:39:43.200 looks really cool, but I am so unqualified to do  it for whatever reason you want to tell yourself,   00:39:43.960 --> 00:39:50.320 ask yourself why not. Even if it's, you know,  you're going from toys to something in STEM,   00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:56.520 or, you know, I'm not a rocket scientist, but  somehow, I can create value at SpaceX? Like,   00:39:56.520 --> 00:40:05.200 if you want to do it, ask yourself why not and try  and see what happens. Because if you stop yourself   00:40:05.200 --> 00:40:11.320 at the start, before you even start trying, then  you're never going to find out what happens next. 00:40:11.320 --> 00:40:12.960 [MUSIC] GEHRKE: It's just such an amazing note to end on. 00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:14.780 So thank you very much for  the great conversation, Wei. 00:40:14.780 --> 00:40:16.600 LIU: Yeah. Thanks, Johannes. 00:40:16.600 --> 00:40:20.800 GEHRKE: To learn more about Wei or  to see photos of her work and of   00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:25.287 her childhood in Silicon Valley,  visit aka.ms/ResearcherStories. 00:40:25.287 --> 00:40:27.320 [MUSIC FADES]