The biggest dividends
of Brexit
for the Uk,
especially as it relates to science and technology,
If you're looking at
progressive
regulation, we have a grown up mature conversation
with regulators in this country where there 20
minutes down the road we don't for pretend
day don't exist, we say the technology and
science and ubiquitous in society, of course, is
gonna need guard. So let's... Let's work together.
Welcome to activation on your host Peter high.
My guest is saul Climb.
Solves the c founder and managing partner of
Phoenix Court, which includes 4 different venture capital
firms, local globe, Latitude,
Solar
and base camp. He's of former partner at
venture capital for index ventures as well.
Sol was appointed as a nice executive director
at the department for science innovation in technology,
and is also a member of the council
for science and technology, which advises the prime
minister of the Uk on science and technology
policy issues across governments.
In 20 12, then Uk private minister, David
Cameron, appointed saul to be the Uk's first
technology business ambassador to Israel.
And in 20 16
saw awarded an Ob for services to business.
I look forward to drawing upon saul diverse
perspectives and experiences
through this conversation. Saul welcome activation. It's great
to speak with you today. Great to be
here. Thanks for having me, Peter. Of course.
Well, Saul, you are the c founder in
managing partner of Phoenix Court, which I includes
Mob globe, Latitude,
Solar and base camp venture capital fund. So
4 different funds under an umbrella, that is
Phoenix Court. Talk a bit about that if
you would,
the the constitution of a, of an organization
like Phoenix Court and the rationale and having
4 different venture capital funds
underneath it.
Sure. Well,
Phoenix Courts
is
the name of our space.
Our home.
And
the reason why we've taken the approach of
having
different
funds with different names is because each 1
of the funds has a very specific
strategy.
And,
you know, from my perspective, it's really important
that all of the key stakeholders
for those funds, most importantly,
the founders
that we back,
the c investors
that we work with,
the Lps so invest in those funds really
on and the job that each 1 of
those funds are doing,
and simply puts
local globe
is focused, and this is really our heritage
at free seed and seed stage.
So
if you think about the air in which
we operate broadly,
Em, 1 percent
of the 3800
active Vcs
in Em amir have ever picked 1 unicorn
at seed stage.
So your 90 ninth percentile if you've pick
1 unicorn at seed stage
in Em mirror.
We've done 13.
So
the job of local globe is to be
the best
active Vc in Em, picking unicorns at seed
stage. So obviously, if you're a seed specialist
like local globe, you've done
13, and it happens to be top of
the list.
If you're not a seat specialist like Ax
xl,
specializes at series a, You've picked free unicorn.
At succeed. If you're not a deep specialist
like Sequoia, you picked 6 unicorns at seed
in Em. So a job of local globe
is to be number 1 of all active
investors
in Em mere Vcs,
picking unicorns at seed.
The job of base camp,
which is
an angel Lp,
open not too jargon, but just basically means
we write small checks in other funds. We've
been doing that for about 10 or 15
years.
We've got 60 plus
relationships
around 45
percent in the Us.
Around 45
percent in Em amir and 10 percent in
Apa pack. And those
60 plus
base camp funds,
solo Gps,
micro funds.
If you look at
their ability to pick unicorns at seed,
they are number 5
globally.
In terms of all active Vcs. And if
you look at their ability to pick a
future unicorn,
companies valued at 02:50 to to million to
a billion at seed then number 1 globally.
So if you think of the funnel
of startups ups, venture back startups globally,
they're are around a hundred and 50000
startups globally that are still alive.
And picking
the 1 percent that could become a unicorn
is really challenging.
So what we've tried to do is to
build
signals
at the top of the funnel,
local globe number 1 in Em picking unicorns
at seed,
base camp number 5 globally picking unicorns at
seeds.
And then we have sister funds,
latitude
that focuses at the series b or c
stage,
and then solar, which we piloted a couple
years ago
with a partner in the Uk called M
and g, which is a big domestic
asset all,
s
starts at Series d and continues to hold
its position through Ipo. So what loads
funds allow us to do is very simply
try being 1 of the best in the
world
picking
unicorns at seed with local globe and base
can,
and then
concentrates
capital
and time
at series b c with latitude
and series d plus solar with of companies
that are most likely to become very material.
And just to give you a sense of
where we sat
coming into 20 24.
In 20 23,
we had 46
companies across our funds that did more than
25000000
in revenue,
and we had 26 companies across our funds
that did over a hundred million dollars in
revenue.
So your average
venture
funds would have maybe 1 percent of companies
doing over a hundred million in revenue. We
have over 10 percent of companies doing over
a hundred million in revenue,
and we think that's because we really focus
on picking
at seed, and then using the access
insight and engagement that we have with those
companies
and others that we've met, but maybe not
invested in all that base account managers have
invested to concentrate capital
with latitude and solar. So it gives us
the ability really to...
In the ideal world,
ba founder,
from seed
through that public listing.
At the risk of asking me to be
a modest here soul? What is the differentiating
factor, You you noted building signals and I'd
love to understand what some of those signals
are that are allowing you to to have
such outs size performance.
Well, I I... You know,
having been in this industry and by this
industry, I would say
instead of the technology
industry for 30 years now, which is over
half my life and all of my professional
life,
in the Us in Europe in Israel.
As a humanity's graduate,
I can only give you a humanity's
answer. You know, which really bothers us. So
what we started to do about 8 years
ago was to build data
and so software
around our workflow and process, and we use
software,
you know, to
not just look at the hundred and 50000
venture backed companies that are out there, which
I think a lot of people
do and have done. I mean, we started
doing that 10 years ago when I was
at index and that's kind of I would
say table stakes for a big fund.
I've always been less interested in third party
data Have always been more interested in first
party data.
So what we've done really in the last
8 years is build a lot of first
party
data and insights that have been baked into
our software, our systems and our workflow.
So if there are a hundred and 50000
companies we could back, we've got
10000
companies
in our pipeline,
either that we've invested in or that we've
previously met
but didn't invest in because we were too
stupid or we were too slow or they
were different companies at the time.
But we still continue to to track them
and their progress. And then as I said,
the sort of the 5000
also
underlying portfolio companies that these base managers have
invested. So effectively, what you then have
is sort of 4 to 5 percent of
the global venture,
but starting with the number 1 picker in
a mirror seed, and the number 5 global
picker
at seed. So the signal should be higher
then for latitude
and solar to sort of think about capital
concentration. But to be honest with you, even
though that product is 8 years in the
May king.
As you would know, software
grows, and it develops. And if it's baked
into your workflow,
you know, it just keeps on getting better.
So we're actually only at
version 0.3
on that software right now.
Remarkable progress, Salt. Thank you so much for
for noting that. So I would love to
dig a little bit further if I could
into the European market. Obviously, it's a market.
You know quite well as someone who has
spent so much time both growing up as
well as, professionally in Europe, and especially in
the Uk.
Among other places as you previously noted. It's
fascinating to see we were just if we've
spoke pre previously about the fact that if
you look at the top companies by market
cap, only 3 of the top 30 are
in Europe. And only 1 of those 3
is a technology
organization. You know, by contrast, we're here in
Us. The top 5 of my... By top
30 companies you mean in all sectors? Yeah.
Across sectors, that... Exactly mark market capitalization based.
And, the top 5, anywhere in the world,
are Microsoft Apple Nvidia, alphabet,
Amazon, all Us based, all technology centric. And
then if you go further down a list,
a lot more Us based companies and a
lot of those technology based as well. Now,
you're talking to about your
rationale reason for being,
optimistic enough to be an investor. Or and
and maybe that's the wrong way of framing
and maybe it is just that you've got
the tools to be able to pick in
a very difficult environment to pick the winners
relative to sort of a a place like,
here in the Us.
Look, I I think it's a great question
and, you know, the problem with a snapshots,
you know, is it's really backward looking. It's
not forward looking. So, you know, if you
look at... And I do this a lot,
as you as you rightly say, 7 actually
out of the top in companies in the
world
are not only
tech companies, but their venture backed tech companies.
What 1 of the 7 is actually a
set of a a Taiwanese,
tech companies,
Ts c that was backed by European c
we see actually philips
and and a sort of a sovereign, the
country. But in the same way, you know,
so that you got 7 other the world's
top 10 companies that are
tech companies. As you said, and all of
them had venture backing and you know, none
of them existed 40, 50 years ago. So
the way I would sort of look at
this is Zoom right outs and say, in
a sense venture capital started in 19 71
in Silicon Valley with the birth of the
micro processor. And the first age
adventure
started in 19 71 a year after I
was born and I would argue ended with
the Nets scape Ipo, which is, like, at
the beginning of my
kind of
professional career,
94 95.
And in that first age
adventure, the
iconic companies that were created in that first
age adventure were, let's call it 80 percent
hard tech.
Stem,
Pcs,
networking.
I'm looking at you that micro... At Cisco,
Intel apple,
and then, you know, the soft tech winners
there were Microsoft oracle.
The next age
adventure was
starting with the Nets Ipo, let's say it
ended
when the WH0
said Covid was a global pandemic. And arguably,
the next stage flipped it on its head
and it was 80 percent soft tech.
Google,
Amazon,
Netflix,
Uber,
Air airbnb and, the list goes on. And
20 percent, maybe but only 10 percent hot
And the way we sort of look at
the world is,
you know, the next
adventure.
Is gonna be more like 50 50. And
what is hard tech?
It's not just soft tech, but it's technology
that is for facilitated
by
radical
breakthroughs in science,
engineering and technology.
And if you look
outside my window, I can see the
Institute. Now the Quick institute is not the
broad
shoots, but it is the world's second best,
sensor for genomics
and computational biology.
So there 4000
researchers across the road and 4 nobel prize
winners. And then if I walk 5 minutes
literally
to some pancreas in Kings cross the global
headquarters
note the global headquarters
of alphabet
Ai
division. Called deep mind,
you know, which is also spun off iso
morph,
which, you know, is
operating at the intersection of Ai
and computational chemistry and biology. If I get
on the train,
at Kings cross and avoid platform 9 and
3 quarters and don't get a hogwarts. I
got a Cambridge,
you know, I'm at 1 of the world's,
not Britain not Europe,
1 of the world's top 3 universities, Cambridge
University,
if I go to the other direction, I'm
at 1 of the world's
top 3 universities called Oxford University.
If I go 20 30 minute walk, I
at Uc,
top 10 global,
and imperial. So we've got 4 out of
the world
top 10
universities
within an hour or so
from the office. And if you believe that
innovation is no longer just the preserve
of Palo Alto in Silicon Valley.
But you believe that innovation is now, you
know, the preserve
of an ecosystem that's only been doing it
for 20 years. Remember we are 30 years
behind in our development.
You could argue
that if you did 1 of those day
0 lines
of how fast did Skype gets to a
hundred million users,
how fast did Instagram gets to a hundred
million users? How fast did chat Gp
gets to a hundred million users. We're ahead
of you.
Very, very interesting. I I... You know, as
as somebody who also has government
appointments as well. I I And in addition
to all that you've described and and your
investments in in startups
across Europe. Talk a bit about your your
perspective on
the rule of Brexit in all of this.
As you talk about the inherent advantages, which
are many and and and,
very well catalog a moment ago. It would...
It seem at least for most
authenticator that that that die... I'm in conversation
with. But that's an impediment
that the... To some of what you've described
as well, but it would love your perspective
on it.
But my perspective
on this is partially again
informed by humanities
and partially informed by social science.
So, you know,
although I did study history
to to certainly my late teens, I remember,
you know, even as a young kid,
reading about the norman
invasion, and the battle of Hastings in 10
66,
and instead of, like,
realizing that, you know, we've been trading
with France a thousand years now.
And there's lots of things that have happened
in those thousand years there wars
area.
You know,
matt,
Bismarck.
I mean, you name it. Right?
And you know what? We still trade with
France.
If I wanna go to Paris,
I'm sitting in a room called Paris, it's
closer for me to get to paris on
the Euro star, than it is for you
to go from San Francisco to La
or from New York to Boston.
So,
you know, there is the sort of the
historian in in me that says, if you
take a thousand year view,
kinda get over it. And then there is
the social scientist,
which is, you know, I'm a big fan
of Carlos Perez is work, which you may
be
familiar with, but she talks about,
you know,
the waves
or of
sort of innovation. And, you know, she talks
about 50 hundred year waves. And again,
you know, if you go back to
the information aid,
which is starting in sort of 9 71
with the birth of the semiconductor,
you connect semiconductors,
to computers, you connect computers to networks,
that gets us the Internet.
You know, you put data in the cloud.
That gets us the cloud. You have devices
that are connected to the Internet and people
can put in pockets, that gets us mobile,
I'm not even gotten to Ai or genomics
or whatever.
Yes. If you just look at the proven
waves,
That means and Pcs, number 1,
Internet number 2, cloud number 3,
mobile number 04:52
years after
t
were with us.
You know, what is the most talked about
company in the world today? It's Nvidia?
You know, what else has being talked about
a lot in last year or so are.
You know, what company
is likely to go public
in London
in the next
4 weeks,
a semiconductor
company.
You know, what is the most valuable European
technology company that's within a 4 hour train
ride from here Asm,
you know, supplier to the semiconductor
industry. We talked about
Ps c,
how much would Philips stake
have been worth today, the 27
percent
that they bought for 50000000
dollars
and then sold their whole position in 2008.
How much would that have been worth today?
230000000000
dollars.
So my point in all of that is
you know,
small political cycles
like the European Union
or Brexit
are way smaller
then the waves that we're talking about here
when we talk about innovation.
So that's the social science lens.
And then the historical
lens, the human bean lens is like, people
still work with each other. People still trade
and you know what. There's this really cool
thing that Ben ser
helped to develop
through da funding called Tcp
Ip, that is the transport layer.
For Paris
information age. And last time I checked, we
were not firewall in conversations with France, with
Germany,
with Belgium or anyone else in the European
Union.
And arguably,
and I voted remain to be clear,
The only dividend
or the biggest dividends
of Brexit
for the Uk,
especially as it relates to science and technology,
is that we have, obviously, all of the
same historical,
social science, advantages. You know, we're back in
horizon, and we're working closely with all of
our European colleagues,
we're coin investing in 1 another's markets.
But if you're looking at
progressive
regulation, which whilst time I checked, most leaders
of Us companies were going to congress and
saying
please regulate me like this.
You know, we have a grown up mature
conversation with regulators in this country where there
20 minutes down the road, and we don't
for 10 days don't exist like Bill early
and and others on the West Coast
you know, we say the technology and science
and ubiquitous in society, of course, it's gonna
need Guard rails. So let's let's work together.
Real really great perspectives. Thank you so much
for sharing those. And I'm I wanna double
click on a couple things you said. You
you've you've spoken about the third age of
venture, a, a new Era that's emerging 1
with policy alignment and a balance of soft
and hard tactical you noted 50 50, is
your projection. And a commitment to long term
impactful solutions to societal challenges.
I would love to have you talk a
bit about, yeah, as you are making investments
putting your money where your mouth is on
this. Talk a bit about, do some of
the things that excite you most as you
look to third age venture.
Well,
in terms of putting our money where Our
mouth is, the vehicle that we didn't talk
about at the beginning, which is actually out...
The fifth fund
for 1 of a better word or the
fifth estates,
you know, within Phoenix court,
When we created Phoenix courses as instead of
an institutional vehicle in 20 15, we made
a decision to do the following things Warren,
allocate 10 percent of profits in the management
company
and 2 percent of carry in all of
our funds into a foundation.
The foundation is designed to make real to
put our money where our mouth is, our
purpose,
as a business, which is to be a
good long term neighbor and to help people
realize their full potential. And being a good
long term neighbor as anyone knows
starts at home.
So
80 percent of the
allocation
from our foundation, Phoenix court works,
works is there because it's very active in
our neighborhood. 80 percent goes within a square
mile of our office, and that supports around
currently 35
organizations, including the primary schools, the secondary schools,
the doctor surgeries,
the youth centers,
the social enterprises, and you could say, like,
why are you doing that in the middle
of, you know, you got Google across the
road. You got matter Across road. You've got
deep mind. You've got universal music. You've got
H. You got all of these universities. You've
got the British library. Like, it's like, this
is 1 of the richest cities in AG7
economy.
What do you doing it? Like, what's wrong
with your neighborhood? Well I'll tell you If
you are the neighborhood between 3 of the
biggest transport hubs in 1 of the biggest
cities in the world for the last hundred
and 50 years, you're also the poorest neighbor.
To this neighborhood,
the health outcomes for people who live in
this neighborhood or, if you're an adult, you'll
live 20 years less than in high gates.
Which is 15 20 minutes off the road.
If you are a kid, 5 out of
10 kids,
receive preschool meals,
because their parents at a household level earn
less than 10000
dollars a year.
If you are a kid in Summers town,
which is our neighborhood, 7 out of 10
kids
are on social care. So
you know, when we say
being a good long term neighbor
and helping people realize their full potential
that starts in our neighborhoods,
80 percent,
and it's real because it costs us.
It's from the profit to the management company
is from the carry of the fund. So
as far as I'm aware, other than generation,
I think we're 1 of the few bonds
in the private markets
who who do this. And we do it,
you know, not just because we think it's
the right thing to do. But because actually,
to go back to why
do I feel like this is new Palo
alto as I said, we've got all of
the innovation capabilities, the science, the technology,
the capital base, you know, the number of
founders,
success launch entrepreneur. That flywheel is turning. Yes.
It's only been turning for 20 years not
50 years. But, you know, as you know,
we're flywheel start to turn, they start to
turn fast and actually,
new Palo alto. So after the bay is
second only to the Bay area globally,
in terms of an innovation cluster,
in terms of outcomes access to capital,
and importantly,
Ip and R and d talent,
We talk about a new palo alto, so
not as... Oh, we wanna be the next
Silicon Valley.
I don't wanna be the next silicon Valley.
You know, Silicon Valley will always be Mecca
and Mode medina for startups.
We wanna be a different
silicon Valley.
So when we say new,
it's not the next.
It's a different 1, and it's 1 that
is based on values,
and governance,
not just a single stakeholder
economy
where the stakeholder is
the
investor,
or the founder.
Because I think it's successful as Silicon Valley
has been in to be clear, the Bay
area has created
10000000000000
dollars
worth of enterprise value from Vc backed startup.
Which is 34
percent of the global total,
which is why I say it's Mac and
Mode medina. It hasn't always turned out that
work for people.
And, you know, this is where talked before
we went live about sort of
cultural
divisions. It's not always clear to me
you know, that the Us model
while having created
enormous economic value,
incredible
growth
historically,
you know, is aiming at a level of
equitable
distribution
that is creating AAA
political and cultural environments
you know, where people are looking at the
next 10 years and saying, I feel really
good about what I'm gonna get in November.
To answer your question. Yes. Yeah. What does
that actually mean as it relates to our
investments? Well, obviously,
the bet, if you like rational bet is,
if you
effectively
have a business model, where you're taking money
out of your business to put into
a deprived local neighborhood.
You will attract a certain type of team
member, which is very values aligned. You will
attract a certain type of founder
whose very values aligned and impact driven, and
I've never met a great founder that isn't
mission driven. And then you will also a
hope fully attract and work with
Lps who share your values who are long
term in their thinking,
And so, you know, again, it's not just
the right thing to do it's in my
view, the rational thing to do because our
team, the founders that we back, and the
people who trust us to invest their capital
to get a great return, that's our flywheel.
The better our returns,
the more money we get to put into
the neighborhood.
An analogy that I... I'm intrigued with, and
I wonder if if if this makes some
sense to you. If you look at the
greatest rock artists from the Uk versus the
Us. The Uk has the beatles, the the
you know, that Z rolling Stones, the kinks,
etcetera. On our side, it's all individuals. Right?
It's Bruce springs. It's Bob Dillon.
And in in many ways that's sort of,
like, emblem, it has said, you know, I'm
not the first to develop this analysis of
the individual of the Us.
Versus the sort of team activity if you
will, of the Uk, for instance, we'll use
the Uk rather than all of Europe as
it's where you are seated currently and and
we're the predominant part of our conversation has
been focused.
And And know, I wonder to what extent
that then extends as you're kind of describing.
So for forgive, I'm piggyback me on your
on your,
idea here as opposed to formulating a new
1 for our conversation of the nature in
which work is done? I don't know. I...
What do you think of that analogy and
its application and and,
yeah, how you're investing and what you're seeing
in the progress you're making.
I mean, and all honesty, I hadn't really
thought about it, but I think it's really
interesting thing thing to think about, you know,
I I'm sure
there's some healthy counts or examples
in the Us,
you know,
immediately, the doors
sprang to mine, but then you're gonna blake
Jim Morrison back at me, I think, you
know, we've got a lot to learn, and
we still have a lot to learn from
the Us. I think, you know, while
you know, there is this sort of narrative
of individual ism
in the Us. You know, there are all
so this understanding and recognition that neighborhoods communities,
organizations,
great companies get built by teams, not just
by
individuals. Now, the narrative
may focus on the individual, but I thought
know, there was this incredible moments in the
last couple of years when Alan elon Musk
was to the extent that he ever a
feels pressure,
you know, being
sort of
challenge at how, you know, how can you
run Tesla and how can you run Spacex
and how can you run the boring company
and you just or Twitter and you do
all of this stuff
and then, you know, I love
watching the the Tesla earnings calls.
And, you know, there was this cooler that
he did and as as an English graduate
and as someone who wrote plays and
and did drama,
you know, in my in my teens in
university is, I kind of appreciates
the drama and the scripting.
And, you know, he basically, he opened the
earnings call.
And then for the 80 99
percent of the call, you know, just had
this sort of
lineup
of
total
rockstar stars
talking about, oh, software
or
factory charging
or hardware developments
or
insurance
or the financials and all of them to
a person was, like,
absolutely
clearly world class of what they did. And
all of them said, oh, you know, for
the 5 or 10 years that I've been
at Tesla.
It's like he just sort of pulled away
the curtain.
And said you might think this is all
about me, but actually,
you know, there's just like this pillar team
here.
And the bit that he took for himself
in the middle,
which I thought was, like, kind of amazing
as well is when he talks about opt...
Is it optimus the robots. That they're building
that. And he effectively,
not in a polished Steve jobs type way,
but sort of just took the lid off
you know, this humanoid
robots, you know, that was picking up tissue
and holding it in their hand and the
sort of the fine tactile movements and talking
about the back, you know, like, a car
is just a robot on wheels, and you
just like,
okay.
Nothing gets to that scale unless you have
exceptional
individuals, not just him,
but amazing teams. And to be clear, at
least when it comes to
growing
companies
as you pointed out that are sort of
some of the top companies in the world,
you know, we're still
many decades,
I think behind where the Us
is today. Although I think, as I said,
you know, with matching up fast,
and we're quite fast learners,
and we've got some smart people
in
Europe and in new Palo alto.
So thank you again for those reflections. I
I wanna,
another aspect that I've read about your last
fee is the necessity to demi dismiss a
by venture. You've talked about how venture capital
has to be more accessible or more diverse
and more transparent to drive lasting value creation.
Can you talk a bit about your perspectives
there and progress made so far?
Yeah. Look, I think it goes back to
your
point about
what are the biggest companies in the world
right now.
And, you know, because they're so big. We
forget that these are venture backed businesses
that, you know, an angel wrote a seed
check, a Vc Wrote, series a check. And,
you know, when these companies are doing tens
of billions of dollars in revenue a quarter
and those are the smaller ones. You know,
we just don't think of them as startups,
but all of these companies were venture backed.
And,
you know, what we've don't recognize
because it's very hard for us to zoom
out people don't typically do that and everything
in our world is having us to zoom
in is to sort of, you know, focus
on the stream,
you know, our attention is constantly
being competed for and bombarded again. So
We don't zoom out. But when you zoom
out, 7 of these 10 companies
are startups,
really?
That, you know, got to extraordinary scale and
got there
because Capital at some point in in time
said, you know,
these are founders
worth backing. And
I think it's pretty scary
when just with those 7 companies
you've got 17000000000000
dollars
of enterprise value, and people don't know how
venture capital works. I think that's really scary.
It it it's sort of a big failure
at a social
and an economic level
that
you know, the the the way that these
companies get finance and built
is basically
still a kind of a cottage
industry
that people talk about in medieval terms, like,
it's Artisan.
It's, you know, an
apprenticeship business, like,
basically, that's a way of excluding people in
my minds,
and it's done a great job of excluding
people.
Venture because this try to sort of aggregates,
you know, the returns
and the insights and the knowledge,
you know, in the same way,
that before the reformation, sorry I'm being a
historian again, Latin
and Greek
did before, you know, we had publishing
before we had Martin in Luther.
So, you know,
most of
the way we think about venture capital, which
has produced these 5 or saying 7 largest
companies in the world is still
medieval or at best the renaissance.
And here we are in the 20 first
century, dealing with Ai
and
genomics
and distributed ledger technology,
and quantum,
you know, let alone, cloud mobile,
on the Internet and semiconductors.
So
I think, you know, it's time that we
sought not even in
people,
just like not even bothering to believe that
anyone other than the high reese should have
knowledge or be educated.
Very interesting. I was also 1 of my
majors as the university was history, So I
love all these analog. I appreciate you sharing
those. I wanted to ask you that somebody
who has spent considerable time and and made
considerable investments
in Israel.
If you could talk a little bit about
what you see as the the the secret
sauce of that economy, which, again, is a
very small country even grand scheme of things,
and yet has produced remarkable value, talent now
tremendous,
talk a bit about your perspectives on on
that economy if you would, and what excites
you about about it enough to put your
money there?
Sure. I mean, and then, again,
we we put our bodies and
apparently there from 20 10 to 20 12.
And I think, you know, it was an
incredible experience. I mean,
and for our family, our, we have 3
kids, but our old... We didn't out we
didn't have our third at the time. So
the older 2 work
know, very young and and and at primary
school. So, you know, we felt it was
a good opportunity to spend 18, 24 months.
Somewhere else, my wife had family out there.
And to be honest, I was a pretty
big skeptic
about israel going there. And then though, you
know, I'm Jewish. I didn't really
have a very nuanced view of israel. I
had a very much a
a media driven
view of Israel. And what I saw on
the ground as you said, it's like, there's
just extraordinary
place where the strike needs of the society,
and, I mean, I'm not gonna talk about
it because there are 2
the best person on this I'm sure you're
and and some of your are listeners have
Reds.
Some of his work is Saul sin, who
wrote startup up nation and then more recently
which I think is a brilliant follow up
wrote book called the genius of Israel, which
is about,
you know, beyond tech the sort of the
resilience
of the
Israeli society,
not just the economy.
And there are sort of factors in Israel
that may be unique to Israel, but action
you know, in the reading of his latest
book, I think are lessons for the world,
You know, the social structures, I mean, the
teamwork, you know, to go back to your
solo
versus bands,
analogy,
people work as teams
in israel.
In a just an extraordinary way across society,
you see that again and again,
often for reasons of resilience.
But, you know, David k ben, who was
1 of the founders of of the state
of Israel when he
retired from being the prime minister,
he went south to the deserts.
And
I think, you know, the story goes and
someone will be able to correct me as,
you know, he was walking through
a place in the Na. And he saw
some young when he some things.
Looking to sort of set up a community.
And he found it very inspiring that, you
know, in the midst of the place where
nothing grows
a desert.
In a here of people
looking to set up a community. So there's
up pioneering
spirits.
You know, that's like crossing the Mason Dixon
line that you have in Israel.
There is a sense
you know, which
great innovation needs as well is that everyone
is against us.
And then you have the social structure
whether it's sort of the Id or even
just gonna your family for Friday night dinner
that creates all of these social cues that
are about collective action.
And so, yeah. I mean, you know, on
a dollar for dollar basis, Israel is the
most productive
innovation economy in the world hands down.
And it's why, you know, when we look
at where do we focus our investing,
There's not a lot we can add to
the Bay area. There's not that much we
can add to new York, but the only
other 2 or 3 cities in the world
that have produce more than a hundred unicorns
of London and Tel aviv.
So we're very active still in in Tel
aviv and it's real. And, you know, I
would just recommend for those that haven't read
both start nation, which is, you know, probably
12 years old now and and it tells
the story of
tech in Israel and how tech became 40
percent of Gdp.
But actually, I find
saul latest book, the genius of Israel, even
more interesting because it talks about, you know,
how at a societal level, you know, Israel
is and of got this remarkable
resilience
despite
everything that's going on there.
The best setting
perspective certainly solved. Thank you so much for
sharing those. And thank you more generally for
a really thought provoking
conversation covering numerous areas that are emblem of
your your your broad,
broad mind and perspectives and curiosity,
really pre sheet you taking a little time
for me today.
Brilliant, and well, thanks so much for the
time and, you know, look forward to
hopefully seeing you in person when you hunt
through London.
And
yeah,
looking forward to any thoughts or comments,
your list have on some of it things
that I've got wrong in our conversation.